From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 3 09:30:54 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 3 May 94 08:46:53 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <704F18316C6@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 722 Lines: 19 > On 29 Apr 94 14:39:02 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > > *grins* well... depends on access time. We're looking for 80ns at the > > moment, due to the speed of the processor involved. > > If I remember correctly, some are 70ns and some are 80ns. Also, some of > them are 9 bits wide... > > imc Yeah, but I don't really need the parity bits -- they're just for hardware that checks memory validity that way. Later, Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 3 09:33:00 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 3 May 94 08:49:27 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <704FC1F3C10@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1496 Lines: 41 > > > On 29 Apr 94 11:39:41 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > > > The SAM's own processor doesn't know a thing -- it's quite nicely > > kept busy with a well placed 0v on the BUSRQ line :) > > I haven't had the time to study the specs in detail, but it > seems to me that suspening the Z80B is a terrible waste of > resources. What about letting the Z80X use the Z80B as a > co-processor? Fix it up with a separate ram-block, or a way > to pass PC to it, and then enable it with an I/O command? > > Any thoughts? Yeah loads of them -- about 8 months ago. It wouldn't work, due to the way I have to keep copying stuff to and from the memory. Also, it'd mean stealing about 1/3rd of the Z80X's clock cycles to run the Z80B -- the Z80B would run at full speed (with ASIC contention), the Z80X at about 12Mhz, with lots of contention that wasn't there before. Also, it plays havoc with I/O -- which processor wants memory paging and where? Plus, with the current design, you can plug in *any* existing SAM Coupe' software and speed it up -- it's totally SAM Compatible (although we may be looking into putting extra wait states in when the disc drives are used). Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 3 11:48:42 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <22026.199405031047@stone> Subject: Re: Bob Brenchley Update: The Law. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 11:47:59 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <6AA35463F1A@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Apr 29, 94 14:03:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 2366 Lines: 63 > > > Well, folks, it looks like we may be able to do dear Bobby under: > > Sections 14 & 15 of the Sale of Goods Act (1979), > The Advertising Standards Act > Trades Descriptions Act > > It also seems that, after doing a little research, although I'm not > sure how this applies to mail order, he is obliged *by law* to > collect the faulty discs himself -- I think this translates to him > having to pay for any postage incurred. > > Your stand and the law: > > You do not have to accept credit notes if you have not asked for them > explicitly -- you may decline the note and ask for payment in full. > That's rather what I thought. I've done exactly that. > You can request as well as your refund, compensation -- such as for > price of postage, photocopying etc, and also for hire of equipment > meant to do the job you had bought the thingy for. > Yep, I told Frank Broughton when I wrote to him that he'd better think damn carefully about refunding the postage I've wasted. > This has been simon cooke, toasted, tired and having spent 3 hours > cutting through a swathe of legal texts, absolutely bloody knackered. Thanks v much for looking that up Simon, it's very much appreciated. There's still no sign of my refund, and Bob has just sent me a sub renewal notice for Format. I think I know where he can stick that... > > Oh yes, and the Citizens Advice Bureau was closed when I got there -- > I was going there to check up just in case. > I might try the advice & welfare dept in the Students' Union here, actually, so don't go to any more bother on my behalf for the moment. > Si To anybody who thinks that we're being unfair to Bob Brenchley, you should have seen how rattled he got when I confronted him at the Gloucester show. He _knows_ he's in the wrong. Unfortunately, the fireworks turned out to be a bit of a damp squib, but he was not a happy man. The sight of 5 or 6 "stupid demo coders" standing in front of him with arms folded did set him on edge a little :) Basically, Bob told me that he'd sent me two disks, wouldn't accept that this was not true, and stormed off saying he didn't want to argue... Apart from all this, the show was pretty good, provided you stayed up on the stage and didn't bother with the West Coast, Format or FRED stands :) Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 3 13:53:46 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405031251.AA03494@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: BBB ? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 14:51:39 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <704FC1F3C10@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 3, 94 08:49:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 2104 Lines: 45 > > > > > On 29 Apr 94 11:39:41 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > > > > > The SAM's own processor doesn't know a thing -- it's quite nicely > > > kept busy with a well placed 0v on the BUSRQ line :) > > > > I haven't had the time to study the specs in detail, but it > > seems to me that suspening the Z80B is a terrible waste of > > resources. What about letting the Z80X use the Z80B as a > > co-processor? Fix it up with a separate ram-block, or a way > > to pass PC to it, and then enable it with an I/O command? > > > > Any thoughts? > > Yeah loads of them -- about 8 months ago. It wouldn't work, due to > the way I have to keep copying stuff to and from the memory. Also, > it'd mean stealing about 1/3rd of the Z80X's clock cycles to run the > Z80B -- the Z80B would run at full speed (with ASIC contention), the > Z80X at about 12Mhz, with lots of contention that wasn't there > before. Also, it plays havoc with I/O -- which processor wants memory > paging and where? Well, if the Z80B only could address ONE 64K 'bank' of memory (eg. bank 0-1 plus eg. the current screen, ie. it addresses those banks only, no matter what else is paged in, and what the Z80X is using, ie. the Z80B has it's paging ports disabled :)), you could choose whether to use those pages as Z80B or Z80X memory, and when wanting to use the Z80B, you just do a i/o which performs a reset on the Z80B (assuming the code starts at adr. 0). My 2p. > > Plus, with the current design, you can plug in *any* existing SAM > Coupe' software and speed it up -- it's totally SAM Compatible Yeah, well...how about the time-critical stuff, like borderscrolls, sample-players (that does not use line-int) :) Hmmm...no, just kidding. I'll be delighted to be able to speed things up! -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 3 13:54:47 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405031253.AA03552@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: BBB ? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 14:53:54 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <704F18316C6@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 3, 94 08:46:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 887 Lines: 21 > > > On 29 Apr 94 14:39:02 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > > > *grins* well... depends on access time. We're looking for 80ns at the > > > moment, due to the speed of the processor involved. > > > > If I remember correctly, some are 70ns and some are 80ns. Also, some of > > them are 9 bits wide... > > > > imc > > Yeah, but I don't really need the parity bits -- they're just for > hardware that checks memory validity that way. Besides, parity is a really lame way of checking memory validity. You _could_ use the extra bit for eg. the screen: 512 colours :) -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 10:54:25 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 4 May 94 10:08:51 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <71E4F666F80@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 759 Lines: 18 > > > If I remember correctly, some are 70ns and some are 80ns. Also, some of > > > them are 9 bits wide... > > Yeah, but I don't really need the parity bits -- they're just for > > hardware that checks memory validity that way. > Besides, parity is a really lame way of checking memory validity. > You _could_ use the extra bit for eg. the screen: 512 colours :) Do you know how *hard* it is to write 9 bits with a data bus 8 bits wide??? :) Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 10:55:15 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 4 May 94 10:12:04 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <71E5DA85554@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 2229 Lines: 42 > > Yeah loads of them -- about 8 months ago. It wouldn't work, due to > > the way I have to keep copying stuff to and from the memory. Also, > > it'd mean stealing about 1/3rd of the Z80X's clock cycles to run the > > Z80B -- the Z80B would run at full speed (with ASIC contention), the > > Z80X at about 12Mhz, with lots of contention that wasn't there > > before. Also, it plays havoc with I/O -- which processor wants memory > > paging and where? > > Well, if the Z80B only could address ONE 64K 'bank' of memory (eg. bank 0-1 > plus eg. the current screen, ie. it addresses those banks only, no matter > what else is paged in, and what the Z80X is using, ie. the Z80B has it's > paging ports disabled :)), you could choose whether to use those pages > as Z80B or Z80X memory, and when wanting to use the Z80B, you just do a > i/o which performs a reset on the Z80B (assuming the code starts at > adr. 0). Hmmmm... nawww... rigging the two together in tandem would be a bitch. Besides, think carefully: the Z80x uses the *same* address bus as the Z80b... result: screwups. If we had direct access to the memory via the expansion bus, then maybe we could do it, but the ASIC is in the way... So we have to go via paging, and the ASIC has to know which is paged in where at any time. TRUST ME. I've looked at the possibility of slaving the z80b lots of times when working on this -- it just ain't feasible. > > Plus, with the current design, you can plug in *any* existing SAM > > Coupe' software and speed it up -- it's totally SAM Compatible > > Yeah, well...how about the time-critical stuff, like borderscrolls, > sample-players (that does not use line-int) :) Hmmm...no, just > kidding. I'll be delighted to be able to speed things up! *grins* welll..... I've put in the option to switch to a 6Mhz clock and use the ASIC waits, so it'll work the same as a SAM in that configuration. Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 11:44:15 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405041042.AA09200@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: BBB ? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 12:42:18 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <71E4F666F80@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 4, 94 10:08:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 861 Lines: 20 > > > > > If I remember correctly, some are 70ns and some are 80ns. Also, some of > > > > them are 9 bits wide... > > > > Yeah, but I don't really need the parity bits -- they're just for > > > hardware that checks memory validity that way. > > > Besides, parity is a really lame way of checking memory validity. > > You _could_ use the extra bit for eg. the screen: 512 colours :) > > Do you know how *hard* it is to write 9 bits with a data bus 8 bits > wide??? :) Who said anything about the data-bus _have_ to be 8 bits? :) -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 12:10:41 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 4 May 94 11:22:57 GMT Subject: Re: Bob Brenchley Update: The Law. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <71F8C244DB9@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 2824 Lines: 67 > > You do not have to accept credit notes if you have not asked for them > > explicitly -- you may decline the note and ask for payment in full. > > > > That's rather what I thought. I've done exactly that. Good... > > You can request as well as your refund, compensation -- such as for > > price of postage, photocopying etc, and also for hire of equipment > > meant to do the job you had bought the thingy for. > > > > Yep, I told Frank Broughton when I wrote to him that he'd better think damn > carefully about refunding the postage I've wasted. *smiles* brilliant > > This has been simon cooke, toasted, tired and having spent 3 hours > > cutting through a swathe of legal texts, absolutely bloody knackered. > > Thanks v much for looking that up Simon, it's very much appreciated. There's > still no sign of my refund, and Bob has just sent me a sub renewal notice > for Format. I think I know where he can stick that... *smiles* yep, right up his <><> BTW: The DOORMAT T-shirts are coming along nicely.. I'll get the artwork on paper soon. Just need a piccy of BOB now :) > > Oh yes, and the Citizens Advice Bureau was closed when I got there -- > > I was going there to check up just in case. > I might try the advice & welfare dept in the Students' Union here, actually, > so don't go to any more bother on my behalf for the moment. Okeydokey. I haven't had time anyway -- I'm seeing the police about people tampering with my mail etc etc. > > Si > > To anybody who thinks that we're being unfair to Bob Brenchley, you should > have seen how rattled he got when I confronted him at the Gloucester show. > He _knows_ he's in the wrong. Unfortunately, the fireworks turned out to be > a bit of a damp squib, but he was not a happy man. The sight of 5 or 6 > "stupid demo coders" standing in front of him with arms folded did set him > on edge a little :) The legendary "demo coder horse-shoe" shall remain a bit of Entropy mythology for millenia to come :) > Basically, Bob told me that he'd sent me two disks, wouldn't accept that > this was not true, and stormed off saying he didn't want to argue... Aye, that he did. He was *very* perturbed. > Apart from all this, the show was pretty good, provided you stayed up on the > stage and didn't bother with the West Coast, Format or FRED stands :) *smiles* and just what *was* on the stage? The MiDGET no less :) :) :) ps Ian -- your brother saw it in action. Ask him what he thinks. Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 12:11:05 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 4 May 94 11:19:54 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <71F7EA83DA3@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1224 Lines: 30 > > > > > If I remember correctly, some are 70ns and some are 80ns. Also, some of > > > > > them are 9 bits wide... > > > > > > Yeah, but I don't really need the parity bits -- they're just for > > > > hardware that checks memory validity that way. > > > > > Besides, parity is a really lame way of checking memory validity. > > > You _could_ use the extra bit for eg. the screen: 512 colours :) > > > > Do you know how *hard* it is to write 9 bits with a data bus 8 bits > > wide??? :) > > Who said anything about the data-bus _have_ to be 8 bits? :) Hmmm... well, it gets awfully tricky to decide how to access that 9th bit. Besides, we're mixing up two pieces of hardware here: Current estimate: MiDGET will be powered by a Z280, possibly two of them working in tandem on two blocks of video memory (although this may be only for the SuperMiDGET). So nerrr... 16 bit address bus here we come. Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 12:30:23 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <10820.199405041127@stone> Subject: Re: BBB ? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 12:27:45 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9405041042.AA09200@ulke.dhmolde.no> from "Frode Tennebo" at May 4, 94 12:42:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 333 Lines: 14 > > Do you know how *hard* it is to write 9 bits with a data bus 8 bits > > wide??? :) > > Who said anything about the data-bus _have_ to be 8 bits? :) > Um, it _is_ 8 bits wide. The Z80 has 8 data lines (bits of wire) which form the data bus, and 16 for the address bus. Full stop. > -- > * Frode Tennebo Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 12:55:58 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 4 May 94 12:09:19 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <720519532EB@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 995 Lines: 28 > > > Do you know how *hard* it is to write 9 bits with a data bus 8 bits > > > wide??? :) > > > > Who said anything about the data-bus _have_ to be 8 bits? :) > > > > Um, it _is_ 8 bits wide. The Z80 has 8 data lines (bits of wire) which form > the data bus, and 16 for the address bus. Full stop. > > > -- > > * Frode Tennebo > > Nige Do you wanna know the really good bit? We're thinking of doing a: 512x300 truecolour mode (16 bits -- 5 r, 5 g, 5 b, 1 transparency control) 512x300 65536 colour mode... well... possibly. Maybe 4096 colour, we're not sure yet -- just depends on how we use the Palette DAC's. I'll keep you posted. Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 13:00:45 1994 Date: Wed, 4 May 94 12:59:27 BST From: Robert Partington Message-Id: <9405041159.AA00728@t1m.cs.man.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: BBB ? Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 257 Lines: 9 About this 512x300 truecolour etc... so long as it's better than the SAM has at the moment, I'm impressed. ..... just HURRY UP with it before I spend all my grant on pinball ..... Rob the impatiently waiting for something to spend money on :) From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 13:13:50 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 4 May 94 12:29:57 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <720A9C81D69@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 645 Lines: 17 > About this 512x300 truecolour etc... > > so long as it's better than the SAM has at the moment, I'm impressed. > > ..... just HURRY UP with it before I spend all my grant on pinball ..... > > Rob the impatiently waiting for something to spend money on > :) Welll... only one prob: It'll be out by Christmas, no earlier... probably. Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 13:21:12 1994 Date: Wed, 4 May 94 13:19:57 BST From: Robert Partington Message-Id: <9405041219.AA00765@t1m.cs.man.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: BBB ? Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 72 Lines: 5 That's ok then.... Christmas present! Is it going to be cheap? From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 14:10:16 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 4 May 94 13:19:09 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7217BD16BC4@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 866 Lines: 25 > Date: Wed, 4 May 94 13:19:57 BST > From: Robert Partington > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Subject: Re: BBB ? > Reply-to: SAM mailing list > > That's ok then.... Christmas present! > > Is it going to be cheap? > Hopefully between 100 and 150 pounds... For the basic model, that is.. video-sync genlocks (with facility for converting PAL to NTSC and vice versa) will probably cost another 100 pounds a piece, and then there's extra memory if you want it.. Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 17:05:07 1994 Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 17:16:59 +0200 X400-Originator: cgp@uk.ac.st-andrews X400-Recipients: sam-users@no.unit.nvg X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<4357.9405041516@pasta.st-andrew] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: SAM CHART UPD... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <4357.9405041516@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAM CHART UPDATE! Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 417 Lines: 16 Heres how the charts looking now that a few more votes have been cast. (If you wish to vote - telnet to the sam info server : 138.251.11.5 4111 and read note '19' then post your favourite pieces of software!) Best Utilities: COMET ASSEMBLER (Revelation) Best Demos: PRINCE OF PERSIA (Domark) LEMMINGS (Fred Publishing) Best Demos: THE LYRA III (ESI) ENTRO II (Entropy) SURPRISE (ESI) From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 17:06:48 1994 Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 17:24:18 +0200 X400-Originator: cgp@uk.ac.st-andrews X400-Recipients: sam-users@no.unit.nvg X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<4577.9405041524@pasta.st-andrew] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: SAM ROM From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <4577.9405041524@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAM ROM Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1384 Lines: 27 Hi, If you were at the Gloucester show, you would have seen the SAM Elite running ROM Version 3.5. (The Elite is a SAM with a built in printer port - same price (sale price 180 pounds till 14th May)) I gave Big Bad Bob a phone and guess whats cheanged in the new rom? THE COPYRIGHT MESSAGE! Thats all that they changed and they put up the version number by .5! Tsk! Typical of Bob i guess! Hmm... I better rename the Sam Coupe Info Server to just the SAM Info Server. And bang goes my .sig file too!!!! ============================================================================ | | ____ __ _ _ __________ | | | / ___\ | \ | \ | \\ _ / | | Colin G. Piggot | | |__ | \ | \ | \\ / _ _ _ | | --------------- | \___ \ | | \ | \| \\ \_ |_| |_| |_| |- | | | ___| | | _ \| |\ |\ \\ / | " | | cgp@st-and.ac.uk | \____/ |_| \___| \__| \_\\/ | | ---------------- | | | | 'The Best Computer In The Universe!' | | | | ============================================================================ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 4 17:19:47 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 4 May 94 16:13:12 GMT Subject: Re: SAM ROM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <724625E4099@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1216 Lines: 30 > If you were at the Gloucester show, you would have seen the SAM Elite running > ROM Version 3.5. (The Elite is a SAM with a built in printer port - same > price (sale price 180 pounds till 14th May)) > > I gave Big Bad Bob a phone and guess whats cheanged in the new rom? > > THE COPYRIGHT MESSAGE! *grins* Mark Hall could also have told you that, but there you go... :) Si *smiles* but never mind... for more news from the void, Mark will keep us up to date. BTW: Apparently, Adrian Parker (he of Blue Alpha) called bob a "Fat Bastard" down the phone two weeks ago, which is why he wasn't at the show. Adrian is currently lying low, but Blue Alpha have expressed interest in the new hardware currently being developed by Entropy/Rooksoft. These include the SAM Omni -- a SAMBus, with clock and 6 (yes, 6!) expansion sockets. Clock is optional, and is the same as in the current device. Si +------------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +--------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 5 11:11:19 1994 Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 12:08:13 +0200 X400-Originator: cgp@uk.ac.st-andrews X400-Recipients: sam-users@no.unit.nvg X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<9255.9405051008@pasta.st-andrew] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Read all abou... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <9255.9405051008@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Read all about it! Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 336 Lines: 11 Read all about the MiDGET in SAM PRIME 6 - Now paper magazine with cover disk (featuring all of Cookie (of Entropy) past coding work. Also the demo of ESI's new game - Ice Chicken is on the disk) Costing only 3 pounds (disk is worth 2.99!) from: Phoenix Software Systems, 19 Lyme Avenue, Macclesfield, Cheshire, SK11 7RS. From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 5 11:22:33 1994 Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 12:19:51 +0200 X400-Originator: cgp@uk.ac.st-andrews X400-Recipients: sam-users@no.unit.nvg X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<9606.9405051019@pasta.st-andrew] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Sam Server From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <9606.9405051019@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam Server Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 163 Lines: 5 The sam server will be down till about 12 o'clock today (5th May) so I can set up the new driver for it. And hopefully i'll have time to put in more news! From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 5 11:49:19 1994 Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 12:38:39 +0200 X400-Originator: cgp@uk.ac.st-andrews X400-Recipients: sam-users@no.unit.nvg X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<9980.9405051038@pasta.st-andrew] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Sam Server From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <9980.9405051038@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam Server Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 75 Lines: 1 Just thought i'd say that it's back up 20 minutes earlier than expected! From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 5 11:49:27 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405051042.AA16475@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: BBB ? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 12:42:54 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <720519532EB@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 4, 94 12:09:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 816 Lines: 22 > Do you wanna know the really good bit? We're thinking of doing a: > > 512x300 truecolour mode (16 bits -- 5 r, 5 g, 5 b, 1 > transparency control) I always though truecolour was 24 bits...... > 512x300 65536 colour mode... well... possibly. Maybe 4096 colour, > we're not sure yet -- just depends on how we use the Palette DAC's. Eh..isn't 16 bits equivalent to 65536 colours? Am I missing something? > > I'll keep you posted. Much obliged. -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 5 13:21:17 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <19357.199405051154@stone> Subject: Re: BBB ? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 12:54:47 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <720A9C81D69@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 4, 94 12:29:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 549 Lines: 18 > Welll... only one prob: It'll be out by Christmas, no earlier... > probably. > > Si Just had a thought, Simon. The output from the MiDGET - will it only be a TV signal, or are you going to supply connections for a SCART or monitor cable rather like the one SAM has? Since I've got a telly and two monitors (TV & good monitor are safely tucked away at home at the mo) it would be good to be able to connect it to any one of them. Am I right in saying that it's _easier_ to supply a monitor type signal than a TV one? Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 5 18:57:56 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 5 May 94 18:15:19 GMT Subject: Read all about it! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <73E6BF77171@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 732 Lines: 23 > Read all about the MiDGET in SAM PRIME 6 - Now paper magazine with cover disk > (featuring all of Cookie (of Entropy) past coding work. Also the demo > of ESI's new game - Ice Chicken is on the disk) > > Costing only 3 pounds (disk is worth 2.99!) from: > > Phoenix Software Systems, > 19 Lyme Avenue, > Macclesfield, > Cheshire, > SK11 7RS. Well.. nearly all... but some things will have to wait for a future disc :) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 09:22:43 1994 Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 21:49:48 +0200 X400-Originator: P.A.Finn-SE2@computer-science.birmingham.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<2501.9405051949@jw9.cs.bham.ac.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Screen(l)036(r) From: P.A.Finn-SE2@computer-science.birmingham.ac.uk Message-Id: <2501.9405051949@jw9.cs.bham.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Screen$ Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 863 Lines: 22 I've been doin' quite a bit of image processing on Sun's as part of a project, and I wouldn't mind giving it a go on the SAM during the summer hols, the thing is I havn't got a clue about the format of Screen$ files, can anyone help?? I have got a copy of the technical manual but its at home and I dunno if it will be in it anyway. Cheers dudes! **** ****** ***** ****** ****** --------------------- * * * * * * * * * * | paf@cs.bham.ac.uk | * * * * * * * **** * **** --------------------- * * * * ***** * ***** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * **** ***** ***** ***** ***** PUT YOUR FAITH IN A LOUD GUITAR From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 09:24:53 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <18675.199405051614@stone> Subject: Bob's claim To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (SAM Mailing list) Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 17:14:15 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 330 Lines: 12 Hello again. If you remember the claim that Bob Brenchley made to me that my computer is broken because it won't load Legend of Eshan - yet more proof that he's wrong wrong wrong - having tried somebody else's copy of the game on my machine, it works perfectly. Am I surprised? I think not... Good ol' Bob. Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 11:00:25 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 10:16:44 GMT Subject: Re: Bob's claim Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <74E73114CDF@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1110 Lines: 28 > Hello again. > > If you remember the claim that Bob Brenchley made to me that my computer is > broken because it won't load Legend of Eshan - yet more proof that he's > wrong wrong wrong - having tried somebody else's copy of the game on my > machine, it works perfectly. Am I surprised? I think not... > > Good ol' Bob. > > Nige Besides... it's a crap game anyway. Currently I'm trying to find the time to get home in time to print out the source -- I'm staying with Martin & Maria rookyard, and I don't want to wake their son up with the printing. THe moment I get the chance, it'll be deprotected... Looks so far like a simple case of turning it into a dos-copyable file. Unlike lemmings, of course, which required modifying my copier program that I wrote for FRED for Parallax.... still Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 11:04:22 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 10:20:51 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <74E84340FAF@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 906 Lines: 22 > Just had a thought, Simon. The output from the MiDGET - will it only be a TV > signal, or are you going to supply connections for a SCART or monitor cable > rather like the one SAM has? Since I've got a telly and two monitors (TV & > good monitor are safely tucked away at home at the mo) it would be good to be > able to connect it to any one of them. > > Am I right in saying that it's _easier_ to supply a monitor type signal than a > TV one? > > Nige MOnitor signals *are* easier to supply than TV ones, but we will have connections for a monitor and a TV -- composite & RGB output too :) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 11:05:47 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 10:20:01 GMT Subject: Re: BBB ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <74E80A672B8@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1166 Lines: 32 > > Do you wanna know the really good bit? We're thinking of doing a: > > > > 512x300 truecolour mode (16 bits -- 5 r, 5 g, 5 b, 1 > > transparency control) > > I always though truecolour was 24 bits...... Well.. not according to the makers of the Atari Falcon. I'm quite hapy to use either -- but using 24-bits without a palette to do the middle-bit is a bit too bus-intensive for our chips. > > 512x300 65536 colour mode... well... possibly. Maybe 4096 colour, > > we're not sure yet -- just depends on how we use the Palette DAC's. > > Eh..isn't 16 bits equivalent to 65536 colours? Am I missing something? Yeah... but what we're going to do is have a 65536 colours-on-screen mode, accessing at 24-bit palette. Possibly. It'll probably be lots lower. > > I'll keep you posted. > > Much obliged. *bows* Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 11:12:50 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 10:30:02 GMT Subject: Re: Screen$ Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <74EABCC23F0@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 938 Lines: 32 > I've been doin' quite a bit of image processing on Sun's > as part of a project, and I wouldn't mind giving it a go > on the SAM during the summer hols, the thing is I havn't > got a clue about the format of Screen$ files, can anyone > help?? I have got a copy of the technical manual but its > at home and I dunno if it will be in it anyway. > > > Cheers dudes! Screens format: 24576 bytes PIXEL DATA, as you would get by copying the screen memory direct to a file.. Followed by: 40-168 ( I think) bytes of Palette data, as peeked from &55d8 onwards... Si (I'll check up more later -- this is just from memory) +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 11:46:03 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 11:04:01 GMT Subject: ENTROPY S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <74F3C233215@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1001 Lines: 31 New machine, anyone? Fancy one that's totally hardware compatible with the SAM, yet has these features *as well*? Separate keyboard processor, that also handles mice so that you can have it in a PC case... Sound processor with 4x8bit DACs and 256kb of memory GFX processor with MiDGET graphics Disc drive/hard drive processor with 256kb of memory... Accelerator built into the boards, most processors running at 20MHz, keyboard one at 3Mhz... How's that sound? I think it's groovy. It'll all be in a PC case, and called the S^2... anyone else got any ideas what we should put in it??? BTW: this is a sort of half-way house between the SAM and the Entropy ENGRAM machine... Simon +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 12:01:27 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <14729.199405061100@stone> Subject: Re: Bob's claim To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 12:00:27 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <74E73114CDF@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 6, 94 10:16:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 847 Lines: 26 > Besides... it's [legend of Eshan] > a crap game anyway. Currently I'm trying to find the > time to get home in time to print out the source -- I'm staying with > Martin & Maria rookyard, and I don't want to wake their son up with > the printing. THe moment I get the chance, it'll be deprotected... > Looks so far like a simple case of turning it into a dos-copyable > file. Should be. I had a look at the bootsector while I was trying to get it to work, and it's very easy by the looks of it. I could save you the time by mailing you the details if you like (tho not via this list, of course) - I think I mentioned how it works at the Gloucester show... > > Unlike lemmings, of course, which required modifying my copier > program that I wrote for FRED for Parallax.... still > Haven't looked. > Si > Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 12:11:12 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 11:27:11 GMT Subject: Re: Bob's claim Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <74F9F555A57@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1751 Lines: 48 > > Besides... it's [legend of Eshan] > > a crap game anyway. Currently I'm trying to find the > > time to get home in time to print out the source -- I'm staying with > > Martin & Maria rookyard, and I don't want to wake their son up with > > the printing. THe moment I get the chance, it'll be deprotected... > > Looks so far like a simple case of turning it into a dos-copyable > > file. > > Should be. I had a look at the bootsector while I was trying to get it to work, > and it's very easy by the looks of it. I could save you the time by mailing > you the details if you like (tho not via this list, of course) - I think I > mentioned how it works at the Gloucester show... Yeah... as far as I can see, all I need to do is read all the sectors, and then lump it into one big DOS-loadable auto-running code file. Possibly compress it too. > > Unlike lemmings, of course, which required modifying my copier > > program that I wrote for FRED for Parallax.... still > > > > Haven't looked. > Nige It's okay really... sectors 1 & 2 (track 0) are 512 bytes long, then every track on the disc (1-81, 128-211) has the sectors as: 1 -- 512 bytes 2 -- 1k 3 -- 1k 4 -- 1k 5 -- 1k 6 -- 1k Which just goes to show: When writing a protection system, don't use the program that your friend wrote to create it and then expect him to be unable to crack it :) Also, that gives roughly 880kb per disc. Quite nice indeed. Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 14:29:21 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <26662.199405061325@stone> Subject: Re: Bob's claim To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 14:25:30 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <74F9F555A57@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 6, 94 11:27:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1183 Lines: 41 > > Should be. I had a look at the bootsector while I was trying to get it to work, > > and it's very easy by the looks of it. I could save you the time by mailing > > you the details if you like (tho not via this list, of course) - I think I > > mentioned how it works at the Gloucester show... > > Yeah... as far as I can see, all I need to do is read all the > sectors, and then lump it into one big DOS-loadable auto-running code > file. Possibly compress it too. Yep. > > > > Unlike lemmings, of course, which required modifying my copier > > > program that I wrote for FRED for Parallax.... still > It's okay really... sectors 1 & 2 (track 0) are 512 bytes long, then > every track on the disc (1-81, 128-211) has the sectors as: > > 1 -- 512 bytes > 2 -- 1k > 3 -- 1k > 4 -- 1k > 5 -- 1k > 6 -- 1k > > Which just goes to show: When writing a protection system, don't use > the program that your friend wrote to create it and then expect him > to be unable to crack it :) Shouldn't you be getting some of his royalties, then? > > Also, that gives roughly 880kb per disc. Quite nice indeed. > > Si > Not bad at all. Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 14:37:00 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <27231.199405061335@stone> Subject: Re: BBB ? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 14:35:28 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <74E84340FAF@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 6, 94 10:20:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 364 Lines: 16 > > Am I right in saying that it's _easier_ to supply a monitor type signal than a > > TV one? > MOnitor signals *are* easier to supply than TV ones, but we will have > connections for a monitor and a TV -- composite & RGB output too :) Good news. Ever since I started using a monitor I have hated TV pictures for computers. > > Si > Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 14:42:46 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <27646.199405061341@stone> Subject: Re: ENTROPY S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 14:41:00 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <74F3C233215@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 6, 94 11:04:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1443 Lines: 52 > > New machine, anyone? Yes please. Could I have mustard with that, please? > > Fancy one that's totally hardware compatible with the SAM, yet has > these features *as well*? > > Separate keyboard processor, that also handles mice so that you can > have it in a PC case... > Sound processor with 4x8bit DACs and 256kb of memory > GFX processor with MiDGET graphics > Disc drive/hard drive processor with 256kb of memory... > > Accelerator built into the boards, most processors running at 20MHz, > keyboard one at 3Mhz... > > How's that sound? > Nae bad at all. Standard sound processor, or custom built? IDE HD interface? You know it makes sense - plug in two cheap hd's really easily. > I think it's groovy. > > It'll all be in a PC case, and called the S^2... anyone else got any > ideas what we should put in it??? > Pronounced "S squared", right? Standing for SAM squared, or any other reason? Full SCSI implementation? PCMCIA interface? Dunno, really. Proper parallel & serial interfaces, tho, are a must. Anything else is probably more money than its worth. High density drive? They usually cope with DD disks as well, of course, so SAM compatibility should be fine, and hd disks are _so_ much better than dd's. > BTW: this is a sort of half-way house between the SAM and the Entropy > ENGRAM machine... > > Simon > But will it ever happen? If so, when? Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 14:55:03 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405061352.AA11735@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: ENTROPY S^2 (fwd) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 15:52:28 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <1068.7130.768228173@flode.nvg.unit.no> from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 6, 94 02:42:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1653 Lines: 51 > New machine, anyone? Yeeeesss! > Fancy one that's totally hardware compatible with the SAM, yet has > these features *as well*? > > Separate keyboard processor, that also handles mice so that you can > have it in a PC case... Souns cool. You need a keyboard interrupt then? > Sound processor with 4x8bit DACs and 256kb of memory Hmmm...whot about 16bit CD sound when fideling with it? > GFX processor with MiDGET graphics 24bit truecolour? 1024x1280? :) OK! Seriously. A 24bit palette should not be to difficult to generate, but I have yet to see anybody using 16.777.216 different colours in one go. Probably you don't need more than 256 different on screen at any time (GIF standard). I seem to remember that what you intend?! However, it would be nice to have digitized pictures in the same resolution/palette as the rest of the screen. Talking about resolution: I hope you are considering more than 256x192 :) > Disc drive/hard drive processor with 256kb of memory... DMA? > Accelerator built into the boards, most processors running at 20MHz, > keyboard one at 3Mhz... > > How's that sound? Sounds good! > It'll all be in a PC case, and called the S^2... anyone else got any > ideas what we should put in it??? Pipeling? DMA definitely! Eh...can I come back to you? :) -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 17:07:16 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 16:22:27 GMT Subject: Re: ENTROPY S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7548B8914AA@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 2095 Lines: 69 > > New machine, anyone? > > Yes please. Could I have mustard with that, please? If you want... mild or burger? > > > > Fancy one that's totally hardware compatible with the SAM, yet has > > these features *as well*? > > > > Separate keyboard processor, that also handles mice so that you can > > have it in a PC case... > > Sound processor with 4x8bit DACs and 256kb of memory > > GFX processor with MiDGET graphics > > Disc drive/hard drive processor with 256kb of memory... > > > > Accelerator built into the boards, most processors running at 20MHz, > > keyboard one at 3Mhz... > > > > How's that sound? > > > > Nae bad at all. Standard sound processor, or custom built? > IDE HD interface? You know it makes sense - plug in two cheap hd's really > easily. Yup... all in 1 chip :) > > I think it's groovy. > > > > It'll all be in a PC case, and called the S^2... anyone else got any > > ideas what we should put in it??? > > > > Pronounced "S squared", right? Standing for SAM squared, or any other reason? Yeppers -- that's it except it obviously doesn't stand for that, for copyright reasons :) > Full SCSI implementation? PCMCIA interface? Dunno, really. Proper parallel & > serial interfaces, tho, are a must. Anything else is probably more money than > its worth. Yeah... Dunno about SCSI and PCMCIA tho'... > High density drive? They usually cope with DD disks as well, of course, so > SAM compatibility should be fine, and hd disks are _so_ much better than dd's. 'twill do :) :) :) it's all in that chip I mentioned. > > BTW: this is a sort of half-way house between the SAM and the Entropy > > ENGRAM machine... > > > > Simon > > > > But will it ever happen? If so, when? > > Nige Within the next 2 years hopefully Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 17:08:48 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 16:20:51 GMT Subject: Re: Bob's claim Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7548471052C@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 653 Lines: 16 > > Which just goes to show: When writing a protection system, don't use > > the program that your friend wrote to create it and then expect him > > to be unable to crack it :) > > Shouldn't you be getting some of his royalties, then? I *should*, as I put a lot of work into lemmings... graphics, coding methods, research. What do I get? Nothin'... Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 17:11:04 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 6 May 94 16:24:49 GMT Subject: Re: ENTROPY S^2 (fwd) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <754957B5AC2@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 2171 Lines: 68 > > New machine, anyone? > > Yeeeesss! > > Fancy one that's totally hardware compatible with the SAM, yet has > > these features *as well*? > > > > Separate keyboard processor, that also handles mice so that you can > > have it in a PC case... > > Souns cool. You need a keyboard interrupt then? Erm... sort of... :) The machine will run in two modes: "Pretending to be a SAM" and "being an S2"... > > Sound processor with 4x8bit DACs and 256kb of memory > > Hmmm...whot about 16bit CD sound when fideling with it? Erm... tell me more :) > > GFX processor with MiDGET graphics > > 24bit truecolour? 1024x1280? :) > OK! Seriously. A 24bit palette should not be to difficult to generate, > but I have yet to see anybody using 16.777.216 different colours in > one go. Probably you don't need more than 256 different on screen > at any time (GIF standard). I seem to remember that what you intend?! > However, it would be nice to have digitized pictures in the same > resolution/palette as the rest of the screen. Talking about resolution: > I hope you are considering more than 256x192 :) Definitely... look at the midget standards so far -- if the new board has new graphics, then that's what it'll have -- probably. > > Disc drive/hard drive processor with 256kb of memory... > > DMA? Only for the disc controller memory partition. > > Accelerator built into the boards, most processors running at 20MHz, > > keyboard one at 3Mhz... > > > > How's that sound? > > Sounds good! Groovy > > It'll all be in a PC case, and called the S^2... anyone else got any > > ideas what we should put in it??? > > Pipeling? DMA definitely! > Eh...can I come back to you? :) Pipelining... hmmm Please feel free to dump your ideal specs on me -- but remember, stick to Z80's for now -- this is only the half-way stage :) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 17:47:56 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <8311.199405061645@stone> Subject: Re: Bob's claim To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 17:45:56 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <7548471052C@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 6, 94 16:20:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 264 Lines: 14 > > Shouldn't you be getting some of his royalties, then? > > I *should*, as I put a lot of work into lemmings... graphics, coding > methods, research. What do I get? Nothin'... Oh well. That's the way of the world. Keep trying? > > Si Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 6 17:48:18 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <8375.199405061647@stone> Subject: Re: ENTROPY S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 17:47:46 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <7548B8914AA@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 6, 94 16:22:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1346 Lines: 55 > > > > New machine, anyone? > > > > Yes please. Could I have mustard with that, please? > > If you want... mild or burger? Ummmmm, mild please. > > Nae bad at all. Standard sound processor, or custom built? > > IDE HD interface? You know it makes sense - plug in two cheap hd's really > > easily. > > Yup... all in 1 chip :) Good good good. > > Pronounced "S squared", right? Standing for SAM squared, or any other reason? > > Yeppers -- that's it except it obviously doesn't stand for that, for > copyright reasons :) Of _course_ not. Obviously. > > > Full SCSI implementation? PCMCIA interface? Dunno, really. Proper parallel & > > serial interfaces, tho, are a must. Anything else is probably more money than > > its worth. > > Yeah... Dunno about SCSI and PCMCIA tho'... > Yeah, you don't really need them, but if you could plug in any old SCSI device it would be pretty neat. > > High density drive? They usually cope with DD disks as well, of course, so > > SAM compatibility should be fine, and hd disks are _so_ much better than dd's. > > 'twill do :) :) :) it's all in that chip I mentioned. > Good news. > > But will it ever happen? If so, when? > > Within the next 2 years hopefully More good news. I should even have some money by then :) > > Si Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Sun May 8 20:12:34 1994 Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 21:11:00 +0200 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<17380.9405081911@pasta.st-andre] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: SAM CHARTS From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <17380.9405081911@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAM CHARTS Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 549 Lines: 20 Here's how it is currently standing: Best program: COMET ASSEMBLER Best game: LEMMINGS Best demo: SURPRISE ) ENTRO II ) THE LYRA III ) Best music: THE LYRA III ) MOD PLAYER ) Best graphics: LEMMINGS ) PRINCE / PERISA ) SPHERA ) If you wish to vote via email - email your opinions on the top 5 sections to cgp@st-and.ac.uk. If you voted via the Sam Info Server there is no need to vote again! From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Mon May 9 10:59:19 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <29284.199405090957@stone> Subject: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (SAM Mailing list) Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 10:57:08 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1461 Lines: 36 Hi Simon. Just a few more thoughts on s/w and h/w... What sort of OS are you thinking of putting into the S^2? Obviously it's got to be SAM compatible - by swapping in a new ROM, copying it into RAM or what? But is the new machine going to jump straight into BASIC like SAM does, or into a CLI or even a (shock, horror) GUI? I'm for the CLI, as you can do whatever you like once you're there, tho that would mean you'd have to write a fairly comprehensive OS if it's going to be any good. Pre-emptive multi-tasking would be nice, tho things start getting tricky when you do that. Co-operative is easier, but not nearly so nice. (Anybody out there who _likes_ windoze?) Hardware scrolling and sprites would be _good_, but not perhaps essential. I think the scrolling is more important - if you take Amiga games, for example, most of them scroll the screen, but rather less use the h/w sprites, as they're not quite as useful as they sound on the cheap (non AGA) machines, since they are a tad limited, particularly in size and colours. >From what I can gather, DMA is very handy, but only if you've got lots of custom chips, like the Amiga, so I guess it's not essential, as I don't see you designing lots of custom graphics & sound chips... I think I said before about sound - make sure it's easy to use. Programming the SAM's sound chip is a bit of a nightmare. Oh well, there's my little contribution. Bye Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Mon May 9 11:10:09 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <296.199405091009@stone> Subject: SAm nifo server To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (SAM Mailing list) Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 11:09:21 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 150 Lines: 7 Sorry about the subject field - backspace ain't too keen on working... Is the SAM info server down? I just get "Host unreachable"... Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Mon May 9 13:18:24 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 9 May 94 12:34:38 GMT Subject: Re: S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <798C179799C@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 3592 Lines: 81 > Just a few more thoughts on s/w and h/w... > > What sort of OS are you thinking of putting into the S^2? Obviously it's > got to be SAM compatible - by swapping in a new ROM, copying it into RAM or > what? ROM swapping is the trick that I'm going to use... it's SAM compatible in the way that the normal ports on the ASIC are going to be used as "transfer ports" -- ie they don't access the chips direct any more, but get stuffed into latches for the appropriate other z80's to handle it.. only in SAM emulation mode though. The OS will be a DOS, with extension files on disc to hook it and bodge it if necessary -- if we can, we'll use EEPROMs so that upgrades can be freebies.. > But is the new machine going to jump straight into BASIC like SAM does, or > into a CLI or even a (shock, horror) GUI? I'm for the CLI, as you can do > whatever you like once you're there, tho that would mean you'd have to write > a fairly comprehensive OS if it's going to be any good. It'll probably be a menu, with a *really* fancy screen, and a choice of either 1) SAM, 2) CLI, 3) GUI or 4) BASIC... of course, using the CMOS battery-backed BIOS ram (in the keyboard processor section), you'll be able to make it start up in any mode you want -- AUTOMATICALLY--. That's apart from bog-standard SAM mode, which you will have to SAY you want :) Possibly. It's just a matter of switching the appropriate ROM in really... there may be ways around it. > Pre-emptive multi-tasking would be nice, tho things start getting tricky > when you do that. Co-operative is easier, but not nearly so nice. (Anybody > out there who _likes_ windoze?) I do. It's better than nothing. But only since it has Truetype fonts (anyone got the docs for them, btw?) > Hardware scrolling and sprites would be _good_, but not perhaps essential. > I think the scrolling is more important - if you take Amiga games, for > example, most of them scroll the screen, but rather less use the h/w > sprites, as they're not quite as useful as they sound on the cheap (non AGA) > machines, since they are a tad limited, particularly in size and colours. mmmm.... have to see what I can do... > >From what I can gather, DMA is very handy, but only if you've got lots of > custom chips, like the Amiga, so I guess it's not essential, as I don't see > you designing lots of custom graphics & sound chips... > > I think I said before about sound - make sure it's easy to use. Programming > the SAM's sound chip is a bit of a nightmare. Well... I'm going to get Stefan to write the MOD Player for the sound processor -- it'll be the exact same code as it is now, but sync'd in a different way, and in ROM with Sample player code, and Etracker player code (or something similar -- have to talk to Mat about that :) ). The Sound unit will work in this way: 32k ROM, 256k RAM, paged as ROM 0-32767, RAM 32768-49151, 49152- 65535, switched in 16k chunks. Z80 (20MHz), with CTC chip to handle rates and stuff... also handshaking and XMEML access protocols to rest of the system. 256k sound ram will appear as Meg 4, pages 0-15, Gig section 0. Wired to 4x8-bit DACs, 2 left, 2 right. volume controlled in s/ware. > Oh well, there's my little contribution. > > Bye > Nige Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Mon May 9 13:31:20 1994 From: Allan Skillman Message-Id: <23239.9405091229@h2.ph.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (SAM mailing list) Date: Mon, 9 May 94 13:29:39 BST In-Reply-To: <798C179799C@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk>; from "Simon Cooke" at May 9, 94 12:34 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 177 Lines: 5 Is it just me, or is this machine starting to sound just a tad like an Acorn A5000, but without the 32 bit processor? Don't get me wrong though I think its a great idea From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Mon May 9 13:58:01 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 9 May 94 13:16:05 GMT Subject: Re: S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <79971CF5A59@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 682 Lines: 19 > Is it just me, or is this machine starting to sound just a tad like an > Acorn A5000, but without the 32 bit processor? > > Don't get me wrong though I think its a great idea :) Well... it's based around my Pentagram system design for the Entropy Engram -- 5 processors working simultaneously, anything goes... The Engram will have the risc processors in it too :) :) :) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From imc Mon May 9 14:21:24 1994 Subject: Re: Bob Brenchley Update: The Law. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 9 May 94 14:21:24 BST In-Reply-To: <71F8C244DB9@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk>; from "Simon Cooke" at May 4, 94 11:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 218 Lines: 8 On 4 May 94 11:22:57 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > ps Ian -- your brother saw it in action. Ask him what he thinks. Righto... :-) imc ps shame I couldn't go - I was milling about in Gatwick airport at the time. From imc Mon May 9 14:28:56 1994 Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 9 May 94 14:28:56 BST In-Reply-To: <29284.199405090957@stone>; from "Nigel J Kettlewell" at May 9, 94 10:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 805 Lines: 22 On Mon, 9 May 1994 10:57:08 +0100 (BST), Nigel J Kettlewell said: > But is the new machine going to jump straight into BASIC like SAM does, or > into a CLI or even a (shock, horror) GUI? > Pre-emptive multi-tasking would be nice, tho things start getting tricky > when you do that. Co-operative is easier, but not nearly so nice. (Anybody > out there who _likes_ windoze?) ("GET OS/2!") :-) So, is it going to be a Unix machine? :-) > Hardware scrolling and sprites would be _good_, but not perhaps essential. What about a blitter? By the way, what advantage will this machine have over its competitors? If I buy a PC for some "serious" work, will I want one of these too? imc (sorry, I had an unused pile of question marks which I bought in earlier at a heavy discount...) From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Mon May 9 14:50:09 1994 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 15:46:37 +0200 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<27494.9405091346@pasta.st-andre] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Re: SAm nifo ... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <27494.9405091346@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAm nifo server Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 152 Lines: 5 > Is the SAM info server down? I get 'Host unreachable"... No, the server is up, but our link to JIPS is down! BT are looking into it... Colin. From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Mon May 9 14:50:42 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 9 May 94 14:08:11 GMT Subject: Re: S?2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <79A50726753@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1444 Lines: 42 > On Mon, 9 May 1994 10:57:08 +0100 (BST), Nigel J Kettlewell said: > > > But is the new machine going to jump straight into BASIC like SAM does, or > > into a CLI or even a (shock, horror) GUI? > > > Pre-emptive multi-tasking would be nice, tho things start getting tricky > > when you do that. Co-operative is easier, but not nearly so nice. (Anybody > > out there who _likes_ windoze?) > > ("GET OS/2!") :-) > > So, is it going to be a Unix machine? :-) Erm... if someone programs it to be, maybe :) > > Hardware scrolling and sprites would be _good_, but not perhaps essential. > > What about a blitter? Too expensive for the moment.. possibly.. have to talk to Martin about that. > By the way, what advantage will this machine have over its competitors? > If I buy a PC for some "serious" work, will I want one of these too? Errrr.... maybe, maybe not. Think of it as an A500+ grade SAM, that's sort of got A1200 qualities too... Ish... erm... Basically, it's what SAM *should* have been like. > imc (sorry, I had an unused pile of question marks which I bought in earlier > at a heavy discount...) :) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 10 13:02:24 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <20984.199405101201@stone> Subject: Re: S?2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 13:01:11 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9405091328.AA01192@booth20.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 9, 94 15:28:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 494 Lines: 15 > > Pre-emptive multi-tasking would be nice, tho things start getting tricky > > when you do that. Co-operative is easier, but not nearly so nice. (Anybody > > out there who _likes_ windoze?) > > ("GET OS/2!") :-) I don't have a PC, so I don't have to suffer it most of the time, but occasionally I do end up using them. I use an Amiga which has multitasked beautifully since 1986. Anything the PC can do, so can my Amiga - all at once. OS/2 is much the same, right? Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 10 13:12:48 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405101210.AA06507@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 14:10:56 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <79971CF5A59@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 9, 94 01:16:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 874 Lines: 21 > > > Is it just me, or is this machine starting to sound just a tad like an > > Acorn A5000, but without the 32 bit processor? > > > > Don't get me wrong though I think its a great idea > > > :) > > Well... it's based around my Pentagram system design for the Entropy > Engram -- 5 processors working simultaneously, anything goes... The > Engram will have the risc processors in it too :) :) :) Are we talking about one computer or a couple of them? I'd definitely prefere a RISC thingy. Wot 'bout a RISC thingy running a SAM emulator? :) -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 10 14:50:19 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <29296.199405101349@stone> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 14:49:04 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <798C179799C@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 9, 94 12:34:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 2370 Lines: 59 > > > Just a few more thoughts on s/w and h/w... > > > ROM swapping is the trick that I'm going to use... it's SAM > compatible in the way that the normal ports on the ASIC are going to > be used as "transfer ports" -- ie they don't access the chips direct > any more, but get stuffed into latches for the appropriate other Good stuff. I was wondering how you were intending to cope with that without any s/w traps. > z80's to handle it.. only in SAM emulation mode though. The OS will > be a DOS, with extension files on disc to hook it and bodge it if > necessary -- if we can, we'll use EEPROMs so that upgrades can be > freebies.. > Yeah, sounds like the best bet, especially if you're not mass-producing. > > But is the new machine going to jump straight into BASIC like SAM does, or > > into a CLI or even a (shock, horror) GUI? I'm for the CLI, as you can do > > whatever you like once you're there, tho that would mean you'd have to write > > a fairly comprehensive OS if it's going to be any good. > > It'll probably be a menu, with a *really* fancy screen, and a choice > of either 1) SAM, 2) CLI, 3) GUI or 4) BASIC... of course, using the > CMOS battery-backed BIOS ram (in the keyboard processor section), > you'll be able to make it start up in any mode you want -- > AUTOMATICALLY--. That's apart from bog-standard SAM mode, which you > will have to SAY you want :) Possibly. It's just a matter of > switching the appropriate ROM in really... there may be ways around > it. OK, or how about a standard boot-up into one of them, and you can change it by holding down keys or mouse buttons or whatever. Look at the Amiga, for example (apologies to anybody who doesn't like me going on and on about the Amiga, but I happen to think it's a great machine) - on all but the earliest ROMs you could access a boot menu by holding down both mouse buttons, which allows you to select the boot device and also to disable any device you like, if for example, it takes up a chunk of memory that you desperately need for something else. > > (Anybody out there who _likes_ windoze?) > > I do. It's better than nothing. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's debatable :-) > The Sound unit will work in this way: > [ ] With standard sound outputs, instead of a DIN plug? (please...) > Si Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 10 17:32:26 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 10 May 94 16:49:13 GMT Subject: Re: S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7B5004567FE@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1191 Lines: 32 > > > Is it just me, or is this machine starting to sound just a tad like an > > > Acorn A5000, but without the 32 bit processor? > > > > > > Don't get me wrong though I think its a great idea > > > > > > :) > > > > Well... it's based around my Pentagram system design for the Entropy > > Engram -- 5 processors working simultaneously, anything goes... The > > Engram will have the risc processors in it too :) :) :) > > Are we talking about one computer or a couple of them? I'd definitely > prefere a RISC thingy. Wot 'bout a RISC thingy running a SAM emulator? :) We're talking about a couple of them -- the first will be SAM hardware compatible (at the same time as bringing it up to about A1200 level.. sort of..), the second will be RISC with a SAM emulation thingy on it -- disc processors emulating disc access, video processors emulating video... nice, huh? Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Tue May 10 17:33:14 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 10 May 94 16:51:44 GMT Subject: Re: S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7B50AD40861@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 2104 Lines: 51 > > > Just a few more thoughts on s/w and h/w... > > > > > ROM swapping is the trick that I'm going to use... it's SAM > > compatible in the way that the normal ports on the ASIC are going to > > be used as "transfer ports" -- ie they don't access the chips direct > > any more, but get stuffed into latches for the appropriate other > > Good stuff. I was wondering how you were intending to cope with that without > any s/w traps. *winks* well, now you know :) > > z80's to handle it.. only in SAM emulation mode though. The OS will > > be a DOS, with extension files on disc to hook it and bodge it if > > necessary -- if we can, we'll use EEPROMs so that upgrades can be > > freebies.. > Yeah, sounds like the best bet, especially if you're not mass- producing. > Mmmm.. that's what we thought... nicer too, if you want to put the DOS in ROM -- just in case... > OK, or how about a standard boot-up into one of them, and you can change it > by holding down keys or mouse buttons or whatever. Look at the Amiga, for > example (apologies to anybody who doesn't like me going on and on about the > Amiga, but I happen to think it's a great machine) - on all but the earliest > ROMs you could access a boot menu by holding down both mouse buttons, which > allows you to select the boot device and also to disable any device you like, > if for example, it takes up a chunk of memory that you desperately need for > something else. I think that I can manage that :) > > The Sound unit will work in this way: > > > [ ] > > With standard sound outputs, instead of a DIN plug? (please...) Well... both probably... in the PC case version, that is... we're thinking of doing a version that you can plug your SAM into the back of (note the way I mean that :) :) :) ) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 11 10:10:29 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <21582.199405110909@stone> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 10:09:44 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <7B50AD40861@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 10, 94 16:51:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1678 Lines: 44 > > > ...the normal ports on the ASIC are going to > > > be used as "transfer ports" -- ie they don't access the chips direct > > > any more, but get stuffed into latches for the appropriate other > > > > Good stuff. I was wondering how you were intending to cope with that without > > any s/w traps. > > *winks* well, now you know :) > This will slow down I/O in SAM mode very slightly tho, won't it? Not noticeably, maybe, but anything which is extremely timing critical or very heavy on I/O might suffer slightly (?) > > > z80's to handle it.. only in SAM emulation mode though. The OS will > > > be a DOS, with extension files on disc to hook it and bodge it if > > > necessary -- if we can, we'll use EEPROMs so that upgrades can be > > > freebies.. > > Yeah, sounds like the best bet, especially if you're not mass- > producing. > > Mmmm.. that's what we thought... nicer too, if you want to put the > DOS in ROM -- just in case... I think DOS in ROM is essential, it's uncontended, can't be accidentally (or deliberately) overwritten so it's much more stable (provided the program itself is stable in the first place, of course) and doesn't use up any RAM. Simple patches can be done without replacing the chip, provided it's written nicely enough and only a major overhaul requires a replacement chip. > > With standard sound outputs, instead of a DIN plug? (please...) > > Well... both probably... in the PC case version, that is... we're > thinking of doing a version that you can plug your SAM into the back > of (note the way I mean that :) :) :) ) Hmm. Interesting. Why would you want to, tho? > > Si Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 11 11:38:03 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405111036.AA01673@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 12:36:56 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <798C179799C@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 9, 94 12:34:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 807 Lines: 20 [stuff deleted] > Wired to 4x8-bit DACs, 2 left, 2 right. volume controlled in s/ware. Isn't 8-bit sound dead? I'd really like a 16-bit thingy with the ability to sample up to 46KHz (DAT). You could perhaps combine two 8-bit channels to one 16 bit, but with only four of them, we're down to two channels. If this project is really as custom as it seems, I'd like a 12 channels 16-bit synth up to 46KHz and an inbuild CD-master-burner so that I can make my own CD's. :) > Si F -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 11 11:55:01 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405111045.AA01761@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 12:45:35 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <7B5004567FE@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 10, 94 04:49:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1117 Lines: 22 > > Are we talking about one computer or a couple of them? I'd definitely > > prefere a RISC thingy. Wot 'bout a RISC thingy running a SAM emulator? :) > > We're talking about a couple of them -- the first will be SAM > hardware compatible (at the same time as bringing it up to about > A1200 level.. sort of..), the second will be RISC with a SAM > emulation thingy on it -- disc processors emulating disc access, > video processors emulating video... nice, huh? Why do we need two? I'd go for the second one only, then we can beat the crap out of those PC/Amiga/Mac/Atari/Sun/Alpha/SGI...eh... well...anyway......freaks. This would be especially true if you could select the O/S of _your_ choice (eg. GUI, CLI, Basic, MS/DOS sort of clone, Unix, etc.). (Semi)multitasking is a must! -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From imc Wed May 11 13:12:28 1994 Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 May 94 13:12:28 BST In-Reply-To: <9405111045.AA01761@ulke.dhmolde.no>; from "Frode Tennebo" at May 11, 94 12:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 420 Lines: 12 On Wed, 11 May 1994 12:45:35 +0200 (MET DST), Frode Tennebo said: > Why do we need two? I'd go for the second one only, then we can > beat the crap out of those PC/Amiga/Mac/Atari/Sun/Alpha/SGI...eh... > well...anyway......freaks. Will it have memory protection (i.e., per-process memory pages and/or segments) or virtual memory? If not, then I'll have a 486/Sun/SGI/... over this machine any day. imc From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 11 13:57:31 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <11433.199405111256@stone> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 13:56:32 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9405111036.AA01673@ulke.dhmolde.no> from "Frode Tennebo" at May 11, 94 12:36:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 948 Lines: 24 > Isn't 8-bit sound dead? I'd really like a 16-bit thingy with the ability Have you heard what can be done with 8-bit sound? It's perfectly good, and to be perfectly honest, I've never heard any 16-bit sound that's any better than good 8-biy stuff. Look at the expensive 16-bit PC soundcards - _all_ of them have 8-bit soundblaster emulation (or whatever) and _very few_ (even new) pieces of s/w actually use the top sound cards with 16-bit sound - there's the odd purpose written module, but not very many. > to sample up to 46KHz (DAT). You could perhaps combine two 8-bit > channels to one 16 bit, but with only four of them, we're down to two > channels. If this project is really as custom as it seems, I'd like a 12 > channels 16-bit synth up to 46KHz and an inbuild CD-master-burner so that I > can make my own CD's. :) Sounds good. Trouble is, that'll set you back about L3,000 on its own :-( > Frode Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 11 20:46:32 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 11 May 94 19:32:44 GMT Subject: Re: S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7CFBA5F1F1D@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1738 Lines: 39 > > > > ...the normal ports on the ASIC are going to > > > > be used as "transfer ports" -- ie they don't access the chips direct > > > > any more, but get stuffed into latches for the appropriate other > > > Good stuff. I was wondering how you were intending to cope with that without > > > any s/w traps. > > *winks* well, now you know :) > This will slow down I/O in SAM mode very slightly tho, won't it? Not > noticeably, maybe, but anything which is extremely timing critical or very > heavy on I/O might suffer slightly (?) Believe it or not, but as the Z80's we're going to use are going to be running at 20Mhz, IO may be slightly *FASTER* :) > I think DOS in ROM is essential, it's uncontended, can't be accidentally (or > deliberately) overwritten so it's much more stable (provided the program > itself is stable in the first place, of course) and doesn't use up any RAM. > Simple patches can be done without replacing the chip, provided it's written > nicely enough and only a major overhaul requires a replacement chip. Yeah :) > > > With standard sound outputs, instead of a DIN plug? (please...) > > > > Well... both probably... in the PC case version, that is... we're > > thinking of doing a version that you can plug your SAM into the back > > of (note the way I mean that :) :) :) ) > > Hmm. Interesting. Why would you want to, tho? Well.... as an upgrade for existing users, of course :) SI +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 11 20:46:32 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 11 May 94 19:37:15 GMT Subject: Re: S?2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7CFCE174063@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 896 Lines: 22 > > Why do we need two? I'd go for the second one only, then we can > > beat the crap out of those PC/Amiga/Mac/Atari/Sun/Alpha/SGI...eh... > > well...anyway......freaks. > > Will it have memory protection (i.e., per-process memory pages and/or > segments) or virtual memory? If not, then I'll have a 486/Sun/SGI/... > over this machine any day. > > imc The second machine *will* have per-process memory protection, depending on hardware used. Currently, I'd say YES, but it's a long way off.. besides, I'm deliberately *not* thinking about the 2nd machine yet... it's too tempting :) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Wed May 11 20:46:34 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 11 May 94 19:36:14 GMT Subject: Re: S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7CFC9DB7029@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1558 Lines: 34 > > > Are we talking about one computer or a couple of them? I'd definitely > > > prefere a RISC thingy. Wot 'bout a RISC thingy running a SAM emulator? :) > > > > We're talking about a couple of them -- the first will be SAM > > hardware compatible (at the same time as bringing it up to about > > A1200 level.. sort of..), the second will be RISC with a SAM > > emulation thingy on it -- disc processors emulating disc access, > > video processors emulating video... nice, huh? > > Why do we need two? I'd go for the second one only, then we can > beat the crap out of those PC/Amiga/Mac/Atari/Sun/Alpha/SGI...eh... > well...anyway......freaks. To create a user-base we can expand on, and to exploit original users. Besides, we need money to make the second -- it's a very big project requiring about 5 custom ASICs... > This would be especially true if you could select the O/S of > _your_ choice (eg. GUI, CLI, Basic, MS/DOS sort of clone, Unix, etc.). > (Semi)multitasking is a must! 'cousrse... but UNIX ? I dunno... MSDOS is really a CLI anyway... Besides, I ain't programming UNIX on it... I can handle BIOS, basic OS, hardware interfacing, Demo software and hardware design. I ain't touching a multi-legged mutha like Unix. Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 12 10:03:11 1994 Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 11:01:26 +0200 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<12127.9405120901@pasta.st-andre] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: HARD DRIVE FO... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <12127.9405120901@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Cc: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk Subject: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 418 Lines: 10 It is VERY LIKELY that a hard drive will be appearing for SAM in a few months time. The purpose of this mailing is to see how many people are intrested in it. Approximate cost: 100 pounds for interface plus a 10 or 20 Meg Drive, but it should be compatible with any IDE hard drive so you can use a larger PC one with it. Please mail any responses to: cgp@st-and.ac.uk From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 12 12:04:07 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no, cgp@st-and.ac.uk From: Simon Cooke Date: 12 May 94 11:17:08 GMT Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7DF78C045EC@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 830 Lines: 22 > It is VERY LIKELY that a hard drive will be appearing for SAM in a few > months time. The purpose of this mailing is to see how many people are > intrested in it. > > Approximate cost: 100 pounds for interface plus a 10 or 20 Meg Drive, but > it should be compatible with any IDE hard drive so you > can use a larger PC one with it. > > Please mail any responses to: cgp@st-and.ac.uk Pretty please can I write the DOS and BIOS ROM for it??!!! OOps.. I forgot that I already was ;) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 12 12:08:07 1994 Date: Thu, 12 May 94 12:06:27 BST From: Robert Partington Message-Id: <9405121106.AA00528@t1n.cs.man.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 297 Lines: 9 Is the DOS going to be like SAMDOS/MASTERDOS? Like with 256 bytes for each directory entry? Cos that's just a bit wasteful... And please, please, please -> UNIX style file/path names if possible. I'm so addicted to UNIX that trying to use other systems is getting to be a hassle. Rob From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 12 12:26:23 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 12 May 94 11:45:10 GMT Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7DFF06C5B2A@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 745 Lines: 21 > Is the DOS going to be like SAMDOS/MASTERDOS? Like with 256 bytes for each > directory entry? Cos that's just a bit wasteful... > > And please, please, please -> UNIX style file/path names if possible. > > I'm so addicted to UNIX that trying to use other systems is getting to be a > hassle. > > Rob I was going to make it MS-DOS compatible... UNIX may be saved for the SAM2, when I get lots more memory to stick the DOS in :) :) :) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | When walking a tightrope made of razor-blades, be very careful -- | | you won't be able to grab hold of it if you fall. (Si Cooke, '94) | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From imc Thu May 12 13:27:33 1994 Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 May 94 13:27:33 BST In-Reply-To: <7DFF06C5B2A@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk>; from "Simon Cooke" at May 12, 94 11:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 642 Lines: 17 On 12 May 94 11:45:10 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > I was going to make it MS-DOS compatible... UNIX may be saved for the > SAM2, when I get lots more memory to stick the DOS in :) :) :) Well for a start, let's have real slashes (/), not like those awful MS-DOS ones (\). I take it that each directory entry won't take 256 bytes if it is going to be MS-DOS compatible... imc PS Remember, if there is ever a decent C compiler for the Sam or any of these new machines, that there is a book on how to write a Unix clone, complete with source code (it is, of course, the Minix operating system by Andrew S. Tanenbaum). From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 12 14:46:44 1994 Message-Id: <9405121307.AA22672@dxmint.cern.ch> From: The Kid Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (SAM mailing list) Date: Thu, 12 May 94 15:07:04 METDST In-Reply-To: <9405121227.AA04207@booth4.ecs.ox.ac.uk>; from "Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk" at May 12, 94 2:27 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 639 Lines: 13 Well there is a C compiler for the SAM, well neally if you have PRO DOS you can use HITECH C, very nice ANSI compabible compiler with macro assembler and linker. The good news is that its public domain! In theory it could be adapted to run on the SAM in native mode, just need to get the memory configuration right and switch the CP/M hooks to SAM/ MasterDOS ones ands bobs your father's brother! Of course the compiler is line driven so you would need an editor/environment something like TURBO C would be about right. I might have a go when my SAM gets back from Blue Alpha (ie when pigs fly) if people are interested. From imc Thu May 12 14:54:27 1994 Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 May 94 14:54:27 BST In-Reply-To: <9405121307.AA22672@dxmint.cern.ch>; from "The Kid" at May 12, 94 3:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 416 Lines: 10 On Thu, 12 May 94 15:07:04 METDST, The Kid said: > Of course the compiler is line driven so you would need an editor/environment > something like TURBO C would be about right. I wrote a spectrum editor (FSE, available from an ftp site near you! :-) ) which can be (and indeed, has been) hacked to run on the Sam in a quasi- spectrum mode, although you can only edit files up to 22K long with it... imc From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 12 16:18:42 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405121517.AA10074@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 17:17:32 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <11433.199405111256@stone> from "Nigel J Kettlewell" at May 11, 94 01:56:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1495 Lines: 34 > > > Isn't 8-bit sound dead? I'd really like a 16-bit thingy with the ability > > Have you heard what can be done with 8-bit sound? It's perfectly good, and > to be perfectly honest, I've never heard any 16-bit sound that's any better > than good 8-biy stuff. Look at the expensive 16-bit PC soundcards - _all_ of > them have 8-bit soundblaster emulation (or whatever) and _very few_ (even > new) pieces of s/w actually use the top sound cards with 16-bit sound - > there's the odd purpose written module, but not very many. Check out the difference between 8-bit sample from a PC sampled at 44.1 and an ordinary CD player...... :) > > > to sample up to 46KHz (DAT). You could perhaps combine two 8-bit > > channels to one 16 bit, but with only four of them, we're down to two > > channels. If this project is really as custom as it seems, I'd like a 12 > > channels 16-bit synth up to 46KHz and an inbuild CD-master-burner so that I > > can make my own CD's. :) > > Sounds good. Trouble is, that'll set you back about L3,000 on its own :-( Sony has released a quadruple spinn thingy at USD700. Should drop to 500 in a year or so. > Nige Frode -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Thu May 12 16:32:04 1994 From: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no (Frode Tennebo) Message-Id: <9405121529.AA10152@ulke.dhmolde.no> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 17:29:52 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <7CFC9DB7029@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 11, 94 07:36:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1747 Lines: 36 > > Why do we need two? I'd go for the second one only, then we can > > beat the crap out of those PC/Amiga/Mac/Atari/Sun/Alpha/SGI...eh... > > well...anyway......freaks. > > To create a user-base we can expand on, and to exploit original > users. Besides, we need money to make the second -- it's a very big > project requiring about 5 custom ASICs... You already have the SAM userbase. How realistic is it to assume that the first machine will expand outside the existing SAM userbase in the degree you perhaps want? But if you release a super-duper-brilliant multiprosessored computer.....hmmmm......*drewl* > > This would be especially true if you could select the O/S of > > _your_ choice (eg. GUI, CLI, Basic, MS/DOS sort of clone, Unix, etc.). > > (Semi)multitasking is a must! > > 'cousrse... but UNIX ? I dunno... MSDOS is really a CLI anyway... Mess Doss is _a_ CLI, but not _the_ CLI :) > Besides, I ain't programming UNIX on it... I can handle BIOS, basic > OS, hardware interfacing, Demo software and hardware design. I ain't > touching a multi-legged mutha like Unix. Unix is not that difficult. Linus Thorvalds (who wrote Linux) didn't know a thing about assebly: started writing a routine that printet 'A' on the screen, then a routine that printet 'B' (basically the same routine of course) and then he made a thingy that variated between the two routines producing 'ABAABAABBA'. -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * Frode.Tennebo@dhmolde.no * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 13 11:25:09 1994 From: Mr N J Kettlewell Message-Id: <22266.199405131032@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: S^2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 11:32:54 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <7CFBA5F1F1D@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at May 11, 94 07:32:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 492 Lines: 15 > Believe it or not, but as the Z80's we're going to use are going to > be running at 20Mhz, IO may be slightly *FASTER* :) That's cool. Trouble is that with a few things like disk access, the processor is just sitting there waiting for things to happen, so it would be slightly slower for that... in fact I don't quite see what the speed of the processor has to do with the speed of I/O - I see them as quite independent. Please do correct me if I'm wrong... > SI Nige From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 13 12:47:51 1994 From: Mr N J Kettlewell Message-Id: <23786.199405131041@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 11:41:26 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9405121227.AA04207@booth4.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 12, 94 02:27:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 498 Lines: 12 > PS Remember, if there is ever a decent C compiler for the Sam or any of > these new machines, that there is a book on how to write a Unix clone, > complete with source code (it is, of course, the Minix operating system > by Andrew S. Tanenbaum). > There's no real need to copy it out of a book - just download the Linux source from some ftp site or other. Trouble is, the compiler will need to be damn good and also you do rather need a MMU for Unix of any kind... Nige From imc Fri May 13 12:57:24 1994 Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 May 94 12:57:24 BST In-Reply-To: <23786.199405131041@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk>; from "Mr N J Kettlewell" at May 13, 94 11:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 701 Lines: 19 On Fri, 13 May 1994 11:41:26 +0100 (BST), Mr N J Kettlewell said: > There's no real need to copy it out of a book - just download the Linux source > from some ftp site or other. Yes, but the book does explain how the source works in great detail, so it should be much easier to customise Minix than it is for Linux. > Trouble is, the compiler will need to be damn > good Yes, although with the book you could, if you were so inclined, rewrite the system from scratch to take account of the compiler. > and also you do rather need a MMU for Unix of any kind... Indeed you do, which is why I asked about memory protection and VM earlier. imc From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 13 14:18:21 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 13 May 94 13:37:35 GMT Subject: Re: S^2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7F9D0644B60@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1044 Lines: 25 > > Believe it or not, but as the Z80's we're going to use are going to > > be running at 20Mhz, IO may be slightly *FASTER* :) > > That's cool. Trouble is that with a few things like disk access, the processor > is just sitting there waiting for things to happen, so it would be slightly > slower for that... in fact I don't quite see what the speed of the processor > has to do with the speed of I/O - I see them as quite independent. Please do > correct me if I'm wrong... erm... right.. well, erm.... I thought you meant that IO in general will be slower -- as all the processors are running faster, and a lot are specialised, it *does* mean that IO will be faster than on the SAM -- a lot of ASIC stuff *will* be bypassed. Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | Blood Succour: Another name for a helpful vampire??? :) | | "The Chronos Theorem" -- Update: 80 pages and holding | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 13 14:59:41 1994 Message-Id: <9405131335.AA13271@dxmint.cern.ch> From: The Kid Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (SAM mailing list) Date: Fri, 13 May 94 15:35:10 METDST In-Reply-To: <9405131157.AA11609@booth7.ecs.ox.ac.uk>; from "Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk" at May 13, 94 1:57 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 199 Lines: 5 There is a UNIX clone for Z80 called UZI (not the gun!). I have the C source, for boot stapping it from a CP/M based machine. All the I/O has to be coded though as iplatform dependent. Allan From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 13 15:28:52 1994 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Date: 13 May 94 14:47:11 GMT Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4). Message-Id: <7FAF9A90CD5@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1387 Lines: 38 > > I was going to make it MS-DOS compatible... UNIX may be saved for the > > SAM2, when I get lots more memory to stick the DOS in :) :) :) > > Well for a start, let's have real slashes (/), not like those awful MS-DOS > ones (\). Either will be allowable :) also, there will be a new command: LOAD ABS filename$ (or similar variants -- all ABS filename$ tho') These will take a filename *AS IS* and use *THAT* in the current path -- it won't try and switch directory or anything. Helps keep compatibility with many systems that way. > I take it that each directory entry won't take 256 bytes if it is going to > be MS-DOS compatible... Yup. > imc > > PS Remember, if there is ever a decent C compiler for the Sam or any of > these new machines, that there is a book on how to write a Unix clone, > complete with source code (it is, of course, the Minix operating system > by Andrew S. Tanenbaum). I'm still not sure about UNIX... Although apparently MAT of ESI was planning on writing a UNIX style OS for the SAM -- available on disk soon? :) Si +----------------INTERNET: CSL@FS2.EE.UMIST.AC.UK-------------------+ | Blood Succour: Another name for a helpful vampire??? :) | | "The Chronos Theorem" -- Update: 80 pages and holding | +------------------JANET: CSL@UK.AC.UMIST.EE.FS2--------------------+ From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 13 16:21:27 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 16:07:23 +0100 In-Reply-To: CSL -- "Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM" (May 13, 2:47pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: SAM mailing list Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1976 Lines: 47 On May 13, 2:47pm in "Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM", you warbled: ] LOAD ABS filename$ (or similar variants -- all ABS filename$ tho') ] ] These will take a filename *AS IS* and use *THAT* in the current ] path -- it won't try and switch directory or anything. Helps keep ] compatibility with many systems that way. You what? ] > I take it that each directory entry won't take 256 bytes if it is ] going to > be MS-DOS compatible... ] ] Yup. If it's going to MS-Dos contemtible, can we make it so that you don't _have_ to be restrained to a maximum of 10 characters per filename? And don't make it so that everything is stored in CAPITALS either. MSDos? Ewwwwww... ] > PS Remember, if there is ever a decent C compiler for the Sam or any of ] > these new machines, that there is a book on how to write a Unix clone, ] > complete with source code (it is, of course, the Minix operating system ] > by Andrew S. Tanenbaum). I really would hate to type in all of the minix source... do you get it on disk? I think that if you're going to have a unix system you _have_ to have a decent compiler. Maybe adapt gcc so it produces code output that's Hyperstone compatible or something, then just compile gcc with itself... ] I'm still not sure about UNIX... Although apparently MAT of ESI was ] planning on writing a UNIX style OS for the SAM -- available on disk ] soon? :) UNIX is a brill. idea for the Engram. For the S^2 or sam it would be a waste of time. Maybe make the filesystem similar though, cos unix's file-handling is lovely. ] Si Geoff (gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk / gaw2@york.ac.uk -- INET) __ __ __ An expert is someone | _NOW_ I finally understand why |\ /|| || ) ( _) who can read the system | John Smith's Bitter... ||\/|||--||-( _\\ manual pages faster | These opinions are my own. If || ||| || \(__/ than anyone else... | anyone agrees, more fool them. From imc Fri May 13 16:25:01 1994 Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 May 94 16:25:01 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Geoff Winkless" at May 13, 94 4:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 464 Lines: 13 On Fri, 13 May 1994 16:07:23 +0100, Geoff Winkless said: > I really would hate to type in all of the minix source... do you get it on > disk? I believe so, but you have to order it. > I think that if you're going to have a unix system you _have_ to have a decent > compiler. Maybe adapt gcc so it produces code output that's Hyperstone > compatible or something, then just compile gcc with itself... What I'd like is a Sam version of gcc... imc From sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no Fri May 13 18:47:21 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 16:58:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM" (May 13, 5:25pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: SAM mailing list Subject: Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM Reply-To: SAM mailing list Status: RO Content-Length: 1111 Lines: 27 On May 13, 5:25pm in "Re: HARD DRIVE FOR SAM", you warbled: ] On Fri, 13 May 1994 16:07:23 +0100, Geoff Winkless said: ] > I really would hate to type in all of the minix source... do you get it on ] > disk? ] ] I believe so, but you have to order it. ] ] > I think that if you're going to have a unix system you _have_ to have a decent ] > compiler. Maybe adapt gcc so it produces code output that's Hyperstone ] > compatible or something, then just compile gcc with itself... ] ] What I'd like is a Sam version of gcc... ] ] imc Not worth it. Two reasons: 1. Size. gcc is too big to fit into 3.5Meg, let alone .5... You need a decent-size hard drive. 2. Speed. Floating point library anyone? Geoff (gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk / gaw2@york.ac.uk -- INET) __ __ __ An expert is someone | _NOW_ I finally understand why |\ /|| || ) ( _) who can read the system | John Smith's Bitter... ||\/|||--||-( _\\ manual pages faster | These opinions are my own. If || ||| || \(__/ than anyone else... | anyone agrees, more fool them.