From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 3 12:14:46 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no, Allan Skillman , Colin G Piggot , gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk, CMSISLAV@vax.liverpool-john-moores.ac.uk, "M. J. Andrews" , nigket@dcs.warwick.ac.uk Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:02:32 GMT Subject: The ENTROPY T-Shirt! X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: Status: RO Content-Length: 1500 Lines: 42 Wear what every fashionable (?) Entropy member will be wearing this October (during the assault on the Gloucester show): The official ENTROPY T-Shirt. Printed in colour on white t-shirts, this amazing design picturesquely depicts: ENTROPY ------/ \ \ / / ------\ miracle workers Not just stupid demo coders (the demo coders is crossed out, and "Miracle workers" scrawled across the top of it in a font not unlike the ENYA album). The E is a large 3D affair in striking shades of blue. (Depending on software compatibility , the Red Triangle may be present too). These T-Shirts cost 9 pounds (includes Postage & packing) or seven pounds fifty pence if you're picking them up at the show (no profit is being made from these T-shirts). For no extra cost you could have "Not just stupid hardware designers" instead of "Not just stupid miracle workers" or even "Not even a stupid demo coder". I'll be posting up GIFs of these when I get chance -- unless someone can suggest an FTP site? For an extra 2 pounds, we can replace the "miracle workers" with pretty much anything you require. And that's that at the moment. More earth-breaking, ground shattering news (?) from Entropy as and when! Cookie (Si Cooke) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 7 12:42:56 1994 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:39:52 +0100 Message-Id: <9410071139.AA09157@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%bs41.dnet.ac.uk@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk (Lord Blackadder) To: sam@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk Status: RO Content-Length: 269 Lines: 14 Why is Staffordshire University a pain in the arse. I had my internet account for a total of two days, then the CSU say we can't have them - too much load on the system??!* Bast! I blame Bob Brenchley! Lets face it - I blame him for everything. Lord Blackadder From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 7 14:21:01 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410071318.AA21971@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: your mail To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:17:59 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <9410071314.AA09764@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk> from "Lord Blackadder" at Oct 7, 94 02:14:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 407 Lines: 17 > > Did anybody get my message. > > > Suddenly I feel all alone... We all got your message, you poor soul. Regards, Frode 'soon 23' Tenneb| -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 7 14:25:38 1994 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:14:08 +0100 Message-Id: <9410071314.AA09764@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%bs41.dnet.ac.uk@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk (Lord Blackadder) To: sam@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk Status: RO Content-Length: 147 Lines: 14 Did anybody get my message. Suddenly I feel all alone... When do I get to see the Midget, Cookie. And wheres my software? Lord Blackadder From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 7 15:31:01 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: sam-users-owner , sam Subject: RE: Date: Fri, 07 Oct 94 13:29:00 PDT Message-Id: <2E95AF60@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 28 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 497 Lines: 29 Easy way out - work for the University MIS department and tell CSU to take a running jump. Works for me anyway. Dan Doore ---------- > From: sam-users-owner > To: sam > Date: 07 October 1994 12:39 > > Why is Staffordshire University a pain in the arse. > > I had my internet account for a total of two days, then the CSU say we can't > have them - too much load on the system??!* > > Bast! > > I blame Bob Brenchley! > > > Lets face it - I blame him for everything. > > > Lord Blackadder > From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 7 15:50:56 1994 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Message-Id: <199410071442.PAA12639@flipper.pvv.unit.no> Subject: Re: broken mail systems, no-brain computing service units To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 15:42:27 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <2E95AF60@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" at Oct 7, 94 01:29:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1404 Lines: 29 Seems like some of you have no-brain mail systems, probably grey book or x.400. Quite likely installed and maintained by this sort of people: > Why is Staffordshire University a pain in the arse. > > I had my internet account for a total of two days, then the CSU say we > can't have them - too much load on the system??!* The S in CSU is Service, right? Not in practice? OK, that organization for one has a broken mail system, so I assume its level of competence is approximately the same as its level of service. The rest of you, if you're at a grey book or x.400 site, please be careful, this mailing list is run according to the current internet convention, which some lamebrain mail systems seem to find incomprehensible. The address of the mailing list itself is sam-users@nvg.unit.no, or for the most medieval of you, sam-users@no.unit.nvg. The address of the program that handles administration is sam-users-request@nvg.unit.no (say "help" to it for help, it's simple). Any other addresses (nearly a dozen related addresses) will not do what you want, so if 'reply' gives you another address, don't use reply, send mail explicitly to the list. One final word, it disgusts me to see these people who don't understand that their job is to serve the students. "University would a good place to work if it weren't for all these students" and so on. Ugh. --Arnt (postmaster, nvg.unit.no) From imc Fri Oct 7 15:56:19 1994 Subject: Re: broken mail systems, no-brain computing service units To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 7 Oct 94 15:56:19 BST In-Reply-To: <199410071442.PAA12639@flipper.pvv.unit.no>; from "Arnt Gulbrandsen" at Oct 7, 94 3:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 329 Lines: 10 On Fri, 7 Oct 1994 15:42:27 +0100 (MET), Arnt Gulbrandsen said: > Seems like some of you have no-brain mail systems, probably grey book or > x.400. While we are on about mail systems... I notice that the "Reply-To" header line is (again) missing from items I have received from the sam-users mailing list - what happened? imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 7 15:58:00 1994 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 15:54:59 +0100 Message-Id: <29559.11324.781541699@flode.nvg.unit.no> From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: broken mailers and so on Status: RO Content-Length: 454 Lines: 10 Just to top it off, either nfsnet-relay or birmingham.ac.uk bounced that last message. And mangled the source address badly. And informed me that I don't exist (I mean, MY email address, the one it sent the bounce to, does not exist... one wonders why it bothered to try and send the bounce message to me). So I'll just repeat myself, be careful where you send the mail to the list, some of you don't have the world's best mail systems. --Arnt From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 7 17:52:12 1994 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 16:13:16 +0100 Message-Id: <9410071513.AA10295@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%bs41.dnet.ac.uk@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk (Lord Blackadder) To: sam@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk Subject: sam user thingies Status: RO Content-Length: 612 Lines: 24 Am I meant to receive mail from this thing? I've only had one message - does that mean everybody is down the pub? Then again - thats where I've been. Can someone tell me how to subscribe to alt.drugs.pot? Should I mention things like that? I know all you sam users are purists. I can remember the time I got Cookie drunk(for the first time - I might add!) Manchesters' a dangerous place when your drunk. I'll stop waffling now. Lord B' P.S Cookie - where's my Entropy T-Shirt? P.P.S Are we still goin' to the All Formats thingy (to piss bob off!) P.P.P.S My grant still hasn't come through (Bast'!) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 10 10:59:37 1994 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 10:54:47 +0100 Message-Id: <9410100954.AA22545@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%bs41.dnet.ac.uk@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk (Lord Blackadder) To: sam@bsps1.staffs.ac.uk Status: RO Content-Length: 1171 Lines: 31 >Seems like some of you have no-brain mail systems, probably grey book or >x.400. Quite likely installed and maintained by this sort of people: Thats Stafford! >> Why is Staffordshire University a pain in the arse. >> >> I had my internet account for a total of two days, then the CSU say we >> can't have them - too much load on the system??!* >The S in CSU is Service, right? Not in practice? OK, that organization >for one has a broken mail system, so I assume its level of competence is >approximately the same as its level of service. It's either broken, or more likely, they don't want us to use it! I can't apologise enough for my University - they just don't like students! >One final word, it disgusts me to see these people who don't understand >that their job is to serve the students. "University would a good place >to work if it weren't for all these students" and so on. Ugh. > >--Arnt (postmaster, nvg.unit.no) Well said! Lord Blackadder. P.S If you've identified the problem, does that mean I will get mail at last. P.P.S Is anyone going to tell me how to subscribe to alt.drugs.pot - or what? P.P.P.S Bob Brenchley (mumble, groan, bast'!) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 14 12:55:51 1994 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:47:41 +0100 X400-Originator: goringgn%sun.aston.ac.uk@aston.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<8938.9410141147@sun.aston.ac.uk] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Sorry From: goringgn Message-Id: <8938.9410141147@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sorry X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Status: RO Content-Length: 75 Lines: 1 I seem to have got stuck in your ftp site for the SAM, please kill me off. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 17 10:20:25 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410170917.AA16954@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Bob the Man To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 10:17:13 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 759 Lines: 18 Hi! Just got a nice surprise from dear Bob. After several _months_ of faxing asking him about fixing one of my SAM's, and no replys - I finally got a brand new Z80B for testing (no invoice nor sertificate of debt to sign). That is quite amazing really - perhaps Bob isn't half bad? I'm a bit baffled about the fault, as it's not the ASIC, not the ROM, not the RAM - the only thing not tested (except for the soundchip and graphics chip) is the Z80 - and the error looks strange enough. Regards! -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 17 12:06:46 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: Frode Tennebo , sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 11:57:54 GMT Subject: Re: Bob the Man X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <1F5777B55D1@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 772 Lines: 23 > Hi! > > Just got a nice surprise from dear Bob. After several _months_ of > faxing asking him about fixing one of my SAM's, and no replys - > I finally got a brand new Z80B for testing (no invoice nor sertificate > of debt to sign). That is quite amazing really - perhaps Bob isn't > half bad? > > I'm a bit baffled about the fault, as it's not the ASIC, not the ROM, not the > RAM - the only thing not tested (except for the soundchip and graphics chip) > is the Z80 - and the error looks strange enough. Send me details of your mysterious errors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) Si ps Fred's New Release, SAM Prime and Simon Cooke can exclusively reveal, is Oh No! Not more lemmings. BUt if it gets further than this mailing list, I'm dead, so keep mum about it, okay? From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 17 14:00:29 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 13:53:39 GMT Subject: Just got a few Entropy bits n bobs done X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <1F76580350B@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 804 Lines: 30 Just printed out a few A4 colour "Entropy" posters for the show. Cool eh? Print runs on the T-Shirts start tomorrow -- if anyone wants one of the "Entropy -- not just stupid demo coders^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmiracle workers" T-shirts, then I'll send you one for 9.00 or give it to you for 7.50 at the show! (note this is non-profit) Oh, and you can have a back-print of "Demo coder (n): 1. A person who takes a machine to its limits, defining its essential capabilities; someone possibly in a better position to advise on the limitations of a machine than anyone else. 2. A stupid idiot wasting his time. WHICH DO YOU BELIEVE???" :) See you there? Gloucester show information: Saturday 22nd October, Quedgeley Village Hall, Gloucester. Same as last time, folks, starts at 11am I think. Si From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 18 11:21:27 1994 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 11:16:48 +0100 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<25631.9410181016@pasta.st-andre] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: show... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <25631.9410181016@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: show... Status: RO Content-Length: 209 Lines: 9 > Gloucester show information: > > Saturday 22nd October, Quedgeley Village Hall, Gloucester. > > Same as last time, folks, starts at 11am I think. 10.30am to 4.30pm lets hope the trains are on time too! From imc Thu Oct 20 13:10:45 1994 Subject: Gloucester To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 13:10:45 BST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 58 Lines: 3 So how do you get there from the train station then? imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 20 13:17:15 1994 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:13:46 +0100 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<22978.9410201213@pasta.st-andre] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Re: Gloucester From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <22978.9410201213@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Gloucester Status: RO Content-Length: 257 Lines: 9 > So how do you get here from the train station then? > imc Go next door (the bus station is right beside the train station), jump on a bus to 'Quedgely' and ask for the stop at 'Tesco'. The hall is next to a pub which is next to Tesco.... Colin Piggot. From imc Thu Oct 20 13:31:32 1994 Subject: Sam WWW pages anywhere? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 13:31:32 BST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 126 Lines: 4 Does anyone know of any Sam WWW pages anywhere? Or at any rate does anyone have any pictures of one in electronic form? imc From Frode.Tennebo@hiMolde.no Thu Oct 20 14:15:39 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410201315.AA25718@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: Sam WWW pages anywhere? To: Ian.Collier@uk.ac.oxford.comlab Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:15:03 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <9410201231.AA11455@booth5.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Oct 20, 94 01:31:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 670 Lines: 17 > > Does anyone know of any Sam WWW pages anywhere? Or at any rate does anyone > have any pictures of one in electronic form? You could try http://www.nvg.unit.no/cgi-bin/nvg_finger?frodet - it's perhaps not entirely what youwere looking for, but...... I'll se what I can do. I'll also try to revamp the archive, but as there is so very little going on there at the moment, it is not top priority. Cheers -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 20 16:09:07 1994 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <15964.199410201503@stone> Subject: Gloucester show To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (SAM Mailing list) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 16:03:47 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 546 Lines: 17 Hi there everyone, I most probably won't be going to the Gloucester show, so anybody that is, here's a few favours you could do for me: 1. Say something sarky to Bob 2. Tell me if it was any good or not afterwards 3. Say something nasty to Bob 4. See if FRED issue 50 is on sale there, and if it is, see if my Space Invaders game is on it (it's nothing particularly brilliant, but Colin said he'd pay me something for it, which is handy) 5. Say something libellous to Bob Cheers everybody - I'll maybe try to make it to the next one. Nige From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 20 16:15:58 1994 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 16:18:51 +0100 Message-Id: <9410201518.AA15431@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%3.10.dnet.ac.uk@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk \(\) (Last exit for the lost \(a.k.a goth.black.soc\)) To: sam@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk Subject: FRED Status: RO Content-Length: 305 Lines: 15 Can somebody tell me if any of my stuff has been published on FRED recently. I sent colin some stuff ages ago - and got a message back saying he might use it!? I would be grateful if someone could tell me. Ta Lord Blackadder P.S I also won't be going to the show - can someone give Bob a kicking! From imc Thu Oct 20 16:19:09 1994 Subject: Re: Gloucester show To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 16:19:09 BST In-Reply-To: <15964.199410201503@stone>; from "Nigel J Kettlewell" at Oct 20, 94 4:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 62 Lines: 3 Is anyone going to the show then? (apart from Si Cooke) imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 20 16:31:50 1994 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 16:35:15 +0100 Message-Id: <9410201535.AA15518@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%3.10.dnet.ac.uk@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk \(\) (Last exit for the lost \(a.k.a goth.black.soc\)) To: sam@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk Subject: Show Status: RO Content-Length: 70 Lines: 4 Everyone in Entropy (apart from me) I've been told. Lord Blackadder From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 20 16:40:19 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410201534.AA28226@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: Gloucester show Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 16:34:47 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <9410201519.AA13032@booth5.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Oct 20, 94 04:19:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 340 Lines: 10 > > Is anyone going to the show then? (apart from Si Cooke) I'm not..... :) -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From imc Fri Oct 21 12:18:27 1994 Subject: British Rail To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 21 Oct 94 12:18:27 BST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 377 Lines: 9 Isn't that just typical of BR. Trains from Oxford arrive at Gloucester at 9.32 and 11.41, but there is none in between. I say "trains from Oxford", but of course that is not strictly true, because the 40-mile journey is too much to do in one go, so I have to change twice, making the journey last two hours. :-( I wonder whether there are any coaches to Gloucester... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 12:12:44 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 13:13:51 GMT Subject: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <29EC02F1D0D@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 1836 Lines: 49 I had a long chat to Bob at the show, and here's what the hard drive is going to be like: He has a "team" (doubtful) working on changing the basic ROM -- he's going to rip out the network code and replace it with an options screen (ala multiROM???? Methinks so) to boot from disc (f7), hard- drive (f8) or network (f9) (how, if he's ripping out the network code?) The Hard Drive will occupy ports 234-235 (ARGH! they're LPT2!!!) and apparently the "design group" are having problems getting enough drives smaller than 40Mb to work with -- ie I think we're talking stupid file system that can't handle more than 40Mb HD's here folks... Oh, and he wants to change how the dos works -- apparently putting the device in the filename is a no-no, so he's putting down these standards: CAT instead of DIR must be used (although you can do it the other way, in programs it will be changed back) <<"Because you CAT a directory, you don't DIR a directory">> LOAD d1"filename" instead of LOAD "D1:filename" (although, again, you should be able to use the other, but it's not "preferred") <<"the device shouldn't be part of the filename as it causes all sorts of problems">> LOAD p instead of LOAD He wants it all to be very G+DOS compatible. I say hit him over the head with a cleaver -- the dimwit wants to keep it at Spectrum levels. Needless to say in the next issue of SAM Prime, we'll be printing the PD hard-drive design, now that we've seen the crap he's coming up with. What I'd like to know is how the hell are you supposed to be able to change drives. If you want a program to use either drive easily on the SAM currently, you can do: LOAD drive$+filename$ How the **** do you do it if you're forced to use LOAD d1"filename" ????????????????? Anyway, let's get discussing this :) Si COoke From imc Mon Oct 24 12:24:51 1994 Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 24 Oct 94 12:24:51 GMT In-Reply-To: <29EC02F1D0D@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk>; from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 24, 94 1:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 968 Lines: 32 On Mon, 24 Oct 1994 13:13:51 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > apparently the "design group" are having problems getting enough > drives smaller than 40Mb to work with -- ie I think we're talking > stupid file system that can't handle more than 40Mb HD's here folks... Urgh... I doubt I'd take anything less than 100Mb. > <<"Because you CAT a directory, you don't DIR a directory">> I "cat" files. I "ls" directories. :-) > <<"the device shouldn't be part of the filename as it causes all > sorts of problems">> The +3 manages perfectly OK (except for the bug which leaves the "T:" in the filename if you save "t:foo"). > LOAD p instead of LOAD Hang on... p is the name of a variable. That's a rather strange syntax. Come to think of it, how will you tell the difference between LOAD d1 a$ (where a$ contains a file name) and LOAD d1a$ (where d1a$ contains a file name) given that spaces are allowed in variable names? imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 12:39:44 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 13:37:25 GMT Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <29F24950509@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 1124 Lines: 36 > On Mon, 24 Oct 1994 13:13:51 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > > apparently the "design group" are having problems getting enough > > drives smaller than 40Mb to work with -- ie I think we're talking > > stupid file system that can't handle more than 40Mb HD's here folks... > > Urgh... I doubt I'd take anything less than 100Mb. Yeah -- stupid, isn't it? > The +3 manages perfectly OK (except for the bug which leaves the "T:" in the > filename if you save "t:foo"). > > > LOAD p instead of LOAD > > Hang on... p is the name of a variable. That's a rather strange > syntax. Come to think of it, how will you tell the difference between > LOAD d1 a$ (where a$ contains a file name) > > and > > LOAD d1a$ (where d1a$ contains a file name) > > given that spaces are allowed in variable names? WEll... it's the syntax used on the disciple and +D; I think it requires a space, so it's not all user friendly. Again, Bob's being a plank. Oh, the MultIROM should be out by July at the very latest (possibly a cut down version before then), and will have a UNIX based DOS in it. Si From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 13:02:55 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: Sam Users Subject: RE: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 94 12:48:00 PDT Message-Id: <2EAC1CA2@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 22 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 689 Lines: 22 I'm all for some sort of mass storage on the SAM, but how will the directory structure work? on yer average PC you get FATs and clusters - how will SAM deal with this; on that note, why not make it in PC format and amend the DOS (or rather extend it). That will mean it can read my PC discs :) As for directories, can you imagine shifting up and down directories using MDOS command syntax? Urgh! I think CP/M could handle Hard Drives (I'm never sure on CP/M) and that was an eight bitter -so could its principles be applied to SAM? Not wanting to seem pessimistic, but it's gonna be a lemon unless something drastic is done. And as for 40Mb.... do I really need to say? Dan Doore From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 13:07:19 1994 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 14:02:52 +0100 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<1706.9410241302@pasta.st-andrew] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Re: Bob's ama... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <1706.9410241302@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Status: RO Content-Length: 513 Lines: 14 > The Hard Drive will occupy ports 234-235 (ARGH! they're LPT2!!!) and > apparently the "design group" are having problems getting enough > drives smaller than 40Mb to work with -- ie I think we're talking > stupid file system that can't handle more than 40Mb HD's here folks... Bob also said 9 out of 10 IDE hard drives are not IDE compatible...... > <<"the device shouldn't be part of the filename as it causes all > sorts of problems">> I think we all agree that Bob is the problem....! Colin Piggot. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 13:07:40 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 12:48:09 +0000 In-Reply-To: CSL -- "Bob's amazing hard-drive plans..." (Oct 24, 1:13pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Status: RO Content-Length: 2242 Lines: 67 On Oct 24, 1:13pm in "Bob's amazing hard-drive plans...", you warbled: ] He has a "team" (doubtful) working on changing the basic ROM -- he's ] going to rip out the network code and replace it with an options ] screen (ala multiROM???? Methinks so) to boot from disc (f7), hard- ] drive (f8) or network (f9) (how, if he's ripping out the network ] code?) Why? ] The Hard Drive will occupy ports 234-235 (ARGH! they're LPT2!!!) and Why? ] apparently the "design group" are having problems getting enough ] drives smaller than 40Mb to work with -- ie I think we're talking ] stupid file system that can't handle more than 40Mb HD's here folks... Why? ] Oh, and he wants to change how the dos works -- apparently putting ] the device in the filename is a no-no, so he's putting down these ] standards: ] ] CAT instead of DIR must be used (although you can do it the other ] way, in programs it will be changed back) ] <<"Because you CAT a directory, you don't DIR a directory">> What???? ] LOAD d1"filename" instead of LOAD "D1:filename" ] (although, again, you should be able to use the other, but it's not ] "preferred") ] <<"the device shouldn't be part of the filename as it causes all ] sorts of problems">> Bollocks does it. ] LOAD p instead of LOAD Crap. ] He wants it all to be very G+DOS compatible. I say hit him over the ] head with a cleaver -- the dimwit wants to keep it at Spectrum levels. cleaver? Nuclear cluster bomb... ] Needless to say in the next issue of SAM Prime, we'll be printing the ] PD hard-drive design, now that we've seen the crap he's coming up ] with. Really? Send it to me:) ] Anyway, let's get discussing this :) Is there any way we could just design something to sit in between a PC ISA slot and the Sam? The words `IDE i/face at \)ps8' spring to mind... I'm afraid I know very little about how the ISA bus works... is there anyone out there who could point me to somewhere to find out? It would be really neat to be able to plug in ISA stuff... although obviously the different architectures would get in the way of the more interesting cards... (soundblaster anyone?) Just an idea.. Geoff (gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk / gaw2@york.ac.uk -- INET) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 14:05:28 1994 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:05:52 +0100 Message-Id: <9410241405.AA07868@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%3.6.dnet.ac.uk@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk \(\) (Last exit for the lost \(a.k.a goth.black.soc\)) To: sam@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk Status: RO Content-Length: 451 Lines: 18 Bob's Hard drive is a load of WANK. I am presumming that my last e-mail did not get through. The guy is an idiot - he is convinced that the ZX Spectrum will rule the world. When is he going to realize that computing has moved on? He needs some sense kicked into him - bagsy I get first boot! I still have to get him back for the abuse. Can some one tell me the number for the SAM info telnet site thingy - is it still active. Lord Blackadder From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 14:15:41 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: Sam Users Subject: RE: Date: Mon, 24 Oct 94 14:11:00 PDT Message-Id: <2EAC300A@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 13 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 142 Lines: 13 > From: sam-users-owner > To: sam > Date: 24 October 1994 15:05 > > Bob's Hard drive is a load of WANK. Amen, and goodnight. Dan Doore. From briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 15:46:36 1994 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 14:33:03 GMT From: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk) Reply-To: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <4195@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: Ian.Collier@uk.ac.oxford.comlab Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Status: RO Content-Length: 196 Lines: 8 He he, it this G+ Dos revisitd? -- briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk - Email for Speccy membranes Brian Gaff is B G Services - UK support for 'Z80' The Spectrum Emulator From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 15:54:49 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:01:03 +0000 In-Reply-To: CSL -- "Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans..." (Oct 24, 2:32pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Status: RO Content-Length: 2803 Lines: 69 On Oct 24, 2:32pm in "Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans...", Si warbled: ] Martin is working on a PC-->SAM bus interface, but the IDE drive ] doesn't need that -- in fact, it *may* only need port decoding logic, ] depending on how many drives stick to the original 8/16 bit ] switchable standard. If not, it requires a couple of Input/output ] latches to convert 16bit data to 8... not a great hassle. ] ] We're gonna release one at about 80 quid which will have a 512k SAM ] OS in it, and assemblers, shells, the works. I'd like a UNIX system on ] it -- any takers? No. 80 quid is too much. All I want is a Hard Disk interface. If you're going to stick all that stuff on top either make it free or make the shells+assemblers optional. Unix on z80? No point. The best part about UNIX is that you can have lots of users running on an amazingly fast (sometimes :)) machine. There's no chance that unix, with its extreme complexities, would be either useful or usable on Sam. ] (Don't worry about the C compiler -- we'll sort that out later) Now to me, the C compiler is the most important part... especially if you're going to have UN*X on it. A C compiler is really the standard tool for developing software - look at the ST/Amiga utilities for proof (except the direct-coded ones, of course :) of that. There are loads of standard utilities (like vi, for example :) which could be adapted to Sam quite easily if we could get a C compiler to run on it. I'm going to try a cross-compile and then see what sort of hacking it needs to run on Sam... :) ] It's already got CP/M in the ROM. Why??? CP/M is ok as long as you've got nothing better... but surely we can come up with something... And with Pro-Dos around, why put out something that almost certainly won't work as well (unless it _is_ Pro-Dos, in which case I don't want to have to pay for a package I don't want to use)... ] Si Cooke ] ] ] ] ] These ^^^ spaces are really getting me down, si... You get the general gist: I'm not happy with the Sam scene at the moment. It doesn't seem to be moving in the right direction and it's not moving in _any_ direction any speed fast. I'm just about to lay out getting on for a grand for a decent PC, basically because I don't find the Sam useful any more. That's always assuming I do actually _get_ a student loan this year... This time I'm not giving up the sam (like I did with the Amiga, as I'm sure many of you will remember) but unless the Sam gets sorted with a decent processor upgrade and disk upgrade soonish it'll go the same way as the Amiga eventually did (I got bored of playing Pinball Fantasies...) Enough? I think so. Oh yeah... what's happened to the `reply to' line, arnt???? Geoff (gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk / gaw2@york.ac.uk -- INET) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 16:10:32 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410241600.AA28678@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Bob's etc...... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 17:00:21 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 4776 Lines: 131 Forwarded message: >From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Oct 24 16:58:35 1994 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 16:58:22 +0100 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Message-Id: <199410241558.AA28650@ulke.hiMolde.no> To: frodet Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable ----- Transcript of session follows ----- While talking to mailrouter1.umist.ac.uk: >>> DATA <<< 554 8BIT SMTP extension not supported 554 CSL@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk... Service unavailable ----- Recipients of this delivery ----- Bounced, cannot deliver: CSL@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: by ulke.hiMolde.no id AA28519 (5.67b/IDA-1.4.4 for CSL@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk); Mon, 24 Oct 1994 16:49:08 +0100 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410241549.AA28519@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: CSL@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 16:49:08 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <29EC02F1D0D@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 24, 94 01:13:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3427 > > I had a long chat to Bob at the show, and here's what the hard drive > is going to be like: > > He has a "team" (doubtful) working on changing the basic ROM -- he's > going to rip out the network code and replace it with an options > screen (ala multiROM???? Methinks so) to boot from disc (f7), hard- > drive (f8) or network (f9) (how, if he's ripping out the network > code?) Perhaps network code in contended RAM? Who's on the team btw? > > The Hard Drive will occupy ports 234-235 (ARGH! they're LPT2!!!) and > apparently the "design group" are having problems getting enough > drives smaller than 40Mb to work with -- ie I think we're talking > stupid file system that can't handle more than 40Mb HD's here folks... Cool....then I can get ridd of at least 40 of my discs. Hum...will the drives perhaps be replaceable a la Bernoulli? :) No, if THEY are having problems getting drives smaller than 40Mb, how do they suppose that there will enough drives for even a small market? I doubt that smaller drives than 150Mb is even made..... > > Oh, and he wants to change how the dos works -- apparently putting > the device in the filename is a no-no, so he's putting down these > standards: > > CAT instead of DIR must be used (although you can do it the other > way, in programs it will be changed back) > <<"Because you CAT a directory, you don't DIR a directory">> Hum...all we need is yet another 'standard'. What about renaming a directory to a folder and use the command FOL or FLD? I myself prefere the unix-standard now. > > LOAD d1"filename" instead of LOAD "D1:filename" > (although, again, you should be able to use the other, but it's not > "preferred") > <<"the device shouldn't be part of the filename as it causes all > sorts of problems">> Why hassle with two possibilities? Just extra code.... > > LOAD p instead of LOAD I would much rather see the convention that if you type a command that is not predefined or name of a procedure/function, the dos tries to load a file with that name. Though LOAD gives less to write, simpler to parse and less code. > He wants it all to be very G+DOS compatible. I say hit him over the > head with a cleaver -- the dimwit wants to keep it at Spectrum levels. > > Needless to say in the next issue of SAM Prime, we'll be printing the > PD hard-drive design, now that we've seen the crap he's coming up > with. What about publishing it in Format? ;) > > What I'd like to know is how the hell are you supposed to be able to > change drives. If you want a program to use either drive easily on > the SAM currently, you can do: > > LOAD drive$+filename$ > > How the **** do you do it if you're forced to use LOAD d1"filename" > ????????????????? DEVICE drive$ LOAD filename$ > > Anyway, let's get discussing this :) The snowball's loose...... OH! Just a little thought. What about dropping ALL SAM-hardware development project and instead release a fully SAM compatible plug-in board of the PC-compatible (with extras of course). This way you could utilize interfaces that people already have (harddrives, soudboards, graphics- cards, etc)? -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From imc Mon Oct 24 16:28:55 1994 Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 24 Oct 94 16:28:55 GMT In-Reply-To: ; from "Mars Bar" at Oct 24, 94 3:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 200 Lines: 7 On Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:01:03 +0000, Mars Bar said: > Oh yeah... what's happened to the `reply to' line, arnt???? I wondered that too (although it's Frode that deals with this list isn't it?)... imc From Frode.Tennebo@hiMolde.no Mon Oct 24 16:35:09 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410241633.AA29001@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: Ian.Collier@uk.ac.oxford.comlab Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 17:33:08 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <9410241628.AA01751@booth5.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Oct 24, 94 05:28:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 555 Lines: 14 > > On Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:01:03 +0000, Mars Bar said: > > Oh yeah... what's happened to the `reply to' line, arnt???? > > I wondered that too (although it's Frode that deals with this list isn't > it?)... Eh....no, not really. It's Arnt - I don't think I have the privileges any longer.... -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 16:45:14 1994 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 17:38:17 +0100 Message-Id: <29559.27677.783016697@trondviggo.nvg.unit.no> From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Yet another mail problem Status: RO Content-Length: 738 Lines: 14 In short, umist.ac.uk has installed a new version of PP that bounces a lot of doubtable mail. The internet rule is "be conservative in what you generate, liberal in what you accept" but I notice that X.400 implementers don't seem to agree with that. The upshot is that, in the short while, anyone who uses elm (configured in a certain way) to compose mail will not be able to send mail to umist.ac.uk and any other sites with fascist MTAs. Elm has a buglet, PP has a buglet: Together they won't work. Switching to another mail user agent is probably easier than talking sense into the mail admins, so my advice is to avoid elm for the time being. --Arnt (Frode, I'll fix elm@nvg RSN, the other mail programs here are ok already) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 17:02:52 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar), sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 14:32:55 GMT Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <2A011B339CE@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 1095 Lines: 32 > Is there any way we could just design something to sit in between a PC > ISA slot and the Sam? The words `IDE i/face at \)ps8' spring to mind... > > I'm afraid I know very little about how the ISA bus works... is there anyone > out there who could point me to somewhere to find out? It would be really > neat to be able to plug in ISA stuff... although obviously the different > architectures would get in the way of the more interesting cards... > (soundblaster anyone?) > > Just an idea.. Martin is working on a PC-->SAM bus interface, but the IDE drive doesn't need that -- in fact, it *may* only need port decoding logic, depending on how many drives stick to the original 8/16 bit switchable standard. If not, it requires a couple of Input/output latches to convert 16bit data to 8... not a great hassle. We're gonna release one at about 80 quid which will have a 512k SAM OS in it, and assemblers, shells, the works. I'd like a UNIX system on it -- any takers? (Don't worry about the C compiler -- we'll sort that out later) It's already got CP/M in the ROM. Si Cooke From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 17:07:55 1994 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 18:01:22 +0100 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<20582.9410241701@pas6.st-andrew] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Sam Info Teln... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <20582.9410241701@pas6.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam Info Telnet site thingy... Status: RO Content-Length: 104 Lines: 6 It will be back soon, once i've updated all the files and that.... Give me a week..... Colin Piggot. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 24 23:03:44 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: "briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk" , briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk, sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 19:01:19 GMT Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <2A48ACD689D@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 1000 Lines: 39 > I think his team are Nev Young and Carol... Ugh.... :( Sorry, I don't have much faith in Carol, I'm afraid :( BTW: just installed the interrupts into the Comms software -- have to install the software flow control next! (2x2k ring buffers, one for Transmit, one for receive, 4k capture buffer temporary area, scroll back buffer if you've got a meg or more (probably)) Oh, and there was this cracking bug I had in it... I'd accidentally set the receive queue to address 0, and the transmit queue to past its check... so the transmit queue fills up, crosses the 64k boundary and starts writing over the code in page zero (designed so that it could be in ROM some time), and the receive queue starts dumping data in the code straight away. The result? YUCK!!!! BTW: I've seen this demo: Chaos Hyperdemo on FRED 50. The panache, the style... nothing technically amazing, but the way it's put together. Makes me want to give up demos and become a columnist for Format... Si From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 25 13:09:29 1994 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 13:14:37 MET From: Milan Salajka Subject: New! C for Sam ! To: sam-users Message-Id: <"alfie.uib..514:25.09.94.12.30.33"@uib.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 978 Lines: 22 Hi, > Now to me, the C compiler is the most important part... especially if > you're going to have UN*X on it. > A C compiler is really the standard tool for developing software - look > at the ST/Amiga utilities for proof (except the direct-coded ones, of > course :) of that. There are loads of standard utilities (like vi, > for example :) which could be adapted to Sam quite easily if we could > get a C compiler to run on it. I'm going to try a cross-compile and then > see what sort of hacking it needs to run on Sam... :) It's history - now. My friend - Marian Krivos - RUMSOFT (author of eq. ARCHIV II, EDI-PRO) told me, that he has finished first version of his C compiler. I'll receive it very soon for beta tests... He told me, that it's standart/ansi C compiler. I'll report here later. So, i don't know, if it is public domain or shareware, but i want to upload it to sam ftp server (if possible, of course). See you later Milan From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 25 13:38:17 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410251325.AA06694@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: New! C for Sam ! To: SALAJKA@CZ.CVUT.EARN (Milan Salajka) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 14:25:51 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..514:25.09.94.12.30.33"@uib.no> from "Milan Salajka" at Oct 25, 94 01:14:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 1294 Lines: 29 > Hi, > > > Now to me, the C compiler is the most important part... especially if > > you're going to have UN*X on it. > > > A C compiler is really the standard tool for developing software - look > > at the ST/Amiga utilities for proof (except the direct-coded ones, of > > course :) of that. There are loads of standard utilities (like vi, > > for example :) which could be adapted to Sam quite easily if we could > > get a C compiler to run on it. I'm going to try a cross-compile and then > > see what sort of hacking it needs to run on Sam... :) > > It's history - now. My friend - Marian Krivos - RUMSOFT (author > of eq. ARCHIV II, EDI-PRO) told me, that he has finished first > version of his C compiler. I'll receive it very soon for beta tests... Goody goody.....gimme gimme :) > He told me, that it's standart/ansi C compiler. I'll report > here later. So, i don't know, if it is public domain or shareware, > but i want to upload it to sam ftp server (if possible, of course). Should be no problem at all. -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 25 13:47:31 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:26:04 +0000 In-Reply-To: SALAJKA -- "New! C for Sam !" (Oct 25, 1:14pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: New! C for Sam ! Status: RO Content-Length: 915 Lines: 23 On Oct 25, 1:14pm in "New! C for Sam !", you warbled: ] It's history - now. My friend - Marian Krivos - RUMSOFT (author ] of eq. ARCHIV II, EDI-PRO) told me, that he has finished first ] version of his C compiler. I'll receive it very soon for beta tests... ] He told me, that it's standart/ansi C compiler. I'll report ] here later. So, i don't know, if it is public domain or shareware, ] but i want to upload it to sam ftp server (if possible, of course). So when does C++ get added? ] See you later ] Milan Well, I'll pay 20 quid for it if it's not PD. Any more and I'll spend the hassle porting Hitech C, cos at least I'll know that'll work well :) Sorry to be cynical, but I've had enough of Sam software that screws up my disks and resets the machine just when I try to printf 'hello world' or whatever... Geoff (gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk / gaw2@york.ac.uk -- INET) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 25 14:34:48 1994 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 15:29:50 +0100 Message-Id: <9410251429.AA14770@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%3.7.dnet.ac.uk@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk \(\) (Last exit for the lost \(a.k.a goth.black.soc\)) To: sam@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk Subject: SAM C compiler Status: RO Content-Length: 277 Lines: 13 Geoff Winkly man said > So when does C++ get added? Why do you want C++ - it's a bag of shit >Well, I'll pay 20 quid for it if it's not PD. Any more and I'll spend the >hassle porting Hitech C, cos at least I'll know that'll work well :) I agree - 20 or even 30 Lord B' From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 25 14:50:12 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: Sam Users Subject: RE: SAM C compiler Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 14:38:00 PDT Message-Id: <2EAD7AC7@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 30 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 579 Lines: 30 The Lord of Adders black did speaketh: > From: sam-users-owner > To: sam > Subject: SAM C compiler > Date: 25 October 1994 15:29 > > Geoff Winkly man said > > > So when does C++ get added? > > Why do you want C++ - it's a bag of shit Too right, C++ is pap - If I wanted to messed about by classes and such like, I would have become a teacher. > > >Well, I'll pay 20 quid for it if it's not PD. Any more and I'll spend the > >hassle porting Hitech C, cos at least I'll know that'll work well :) > > I agree - 20 or even 30 > 20 yes, 30's a bit steep. > Lord B' Dan Doore From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 25 15:08:13 1994 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 16:02:56 +0100 Message-Id: <9410251502.AA15000@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk> From: cm3hdlt%3.7.dnet.ac.uk@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk \(\) (Last exit for the lost \(a.k.a goth.black.soc\)) To: sam@bsps2.staffs.ac.uk Subject: C compiler thingy ma blobby Status: RO Content-Length: 839 Lines: 38 Dan the man of the Doors (Come on baby light my fire ?!) hummed > >The Lord of Adders black did speaketh: > > > > > Geoff Winkly man said > > > > > So when does C++ get added? > > > > Why do you want C++ - it's a bag of shit > Too right, C++ is pap - If I wanted to messed about by classes and > such like, I would have become a teacher. > > > > >Well, I'll pay 20 quid for it if it's not PD. Any more and I'll spend the > > >hassle porting Hitech C, cos at least I'll know that'll work well :) > > > > I agree - 20 or even 30 > > > > 20 yes, 30's a bit steep. On the ST/AMIGA/PC you have to pay 150 upwards. Saying that, however, you can get PD versions for nothing. I will comprimise - 25. Sold to the man in the black hat and trenchcoat, making scritchy scratchy sounds. > > Lord B' Heh that's me! Lord Blackadder Dan Doore From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 26 06:52:42 1994 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 26 Oct 94 00:21:00 +0000 Subject: @2:2501/102 Message-Id: <943_9410260644@centron.com> Organization: Centronics BBS To: Sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5452 Lines: 164 Subject: re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... In article on <24 Oct 94 14:13> Csl@Fs2.Ee.Umist.Ac.Uk wrote: Hi Simon! Cs> I had a long chat to Bob at the show, Ooops, I missed it. I was supposed to be building a comms disc for Brian to take to show off the sam-comms, oh well there's always next year..... Cs> and here's what the hard drive Cs> is going to be like: His might! but I'll be b*!!@rd if anything I connect to my sam will be! Cs> He has a "team" (doubtful) working on Cs> changing the basic ROM -- he's Cs> going to rip out the network code and Cs> replace it with an options Cs> screen (ala multiROM???? Methinks so) Cs> to boot from disc (f7), hard- Cs> drive (f8) or network (f9) (how, if Cs> he's ripping out the network Cs> code?) (f8) network boot! What a dumb idea! An RS232 boot maybe but even that's uneeded! Cs> The Hard Drive will occupy ports Cs> 234-235 (ARGH! they're LPT2!!!) and Cs> apparently the "design group" are Sounds like he's working on an XT card adaptor! Another well dumb idea! Cs> having problems getting enough Cs> drives smaller than 40Mb to work with Cs> -- ie I think we're talking Cs> stupid file system that can't handle Cs> more than 40Mb HD's here folks... Again that points to the XT standard... Cs> Oh, and he wants to change how the dos Cs> works -- apparently putting Cs> the device in the filename is a no-no, Cs> so he's putting down these Cs> standards: The whole idea of LOAD'ng a file should be dropped, I'd prefer OPEN, GET, PUT, READ & WRITE. LOAD and SAVE should be supervisor functions to get the main executable into ram, from then on files should be treated as files not just somthing to be loaded into ram in its entirety.... But that would mean loss of compatabiltiy with the speccy style of programming Cs> CAT instead of DIR must be used Cs> (although you can do it the other Cs> way, in programs it will be changed back) Cs> <<"Because you CAT a directory, you Cs> don't DIR a directory">> That's purely a cosmetic change... duno what it's supposed to achieve... peecee's use DIR and like it or not that hasn't stopped their onslaught! Maybe he's trying to get back to his speccy roots again, a techno-mid-life crisis;-) Cs> LOAD d1"filename" instead of LOAD "D1:filename" Cs> (although, again, you should be able Cs> to use the other, but it's not Cs> "preferred") Cs> <<"the device shouldn't be part of the Cs> filename as it causes all Cs> sorts of problems">> Cs> LOAD p instead of LOAD Cs> He wants it all to be very G+DOS Cs> compatible. I say hit him over the Cs> head with a cleaver -- the dimwit Cs> wants to keep it at Spectrum levels. Most people seem to view the sam as just a speccy with more ram and better graphics:-( I think the crappy machine-code DOS interface is one reason why most applictions are totally ram-bound, and because most applications are ram-bound, disk based utils like ARC,LHA,ZIP arn't usable... and native users are stuck with system compression of files that only work in a ram-bound enviroment... sigh its all catch22 Cs> Needless to say in the next issue of Cs> SAM Prime, we'll be printing the Cs> PD hard-drive design, now that we've Cs> seen the crap he's coming up Cs> with. Would that be a derivative of mine;-) The MAIN benifit of using hardware 8<->16 bit bus conversion and the IDE bus is that the HOST speed is totally unimportant the only requirment is that the data buffer is read before the next command is issued! Other than that you can do it fast using 2 INIR instructions or byte at a time and correct the byte ordering if talking to IDE CD-ROM drives;-) Bobs insistance of using unbuffered XT technology means he'll be hard pushed to reliably feed & read the data registers in time! plus he's doing away with IDE ECC in favor of old CRC techniques plus IDE will re-map dodgy sectors on-the-fly plus some have transparent read-ahead buffering... the list just goes on and on! Cs> What I'd like to know is how the hell Cs> are you supposed to be able to Cs> change drives. If you want a program Cs> to use either drive easily on Cs> the SAM currently, you can do: Cs> LOAD drive$+filename$ Cs> How the **** do you do it if you're Cs> forced to use LOAD d1"filename" Cs> ????????????????? This was done on the +D's I can't produce the solution as all my good 3.5" drives are in service on the sam and pc... but it can be done:-) Oh and to load a string-named file the syntax is:- LOAD d1;a$ the ; has to be used as a seperator or it screws up! LOAD d$;a$ Might be the way.... or was it a numeric variable for the drive... I duno... If all else fails a direct poke would do it;-) Of course if the +D syntax is duplicated entirely then using:- LOAD D*;a$ and you just poke the DVAR that sets the default drive to the one that you want... and return it back to the old default afterwards, now isn't that good... NOT! I'm begining to think that a full-blown banked unix would be MOST useful! Sam can use the line-interupt as a maskable timer thats disabled whilst in the kernal but ticks away whilst a task is running and auto swaps tasks according to internal tables. Thanks Si for the reply address:-) CYS. Johnathan. ___ Olms 1.60 [Evaluation] -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From imc Wed Oct 26 11:01:49 1994 Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 11:01:49 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1297 Lines: 38 Aargh, I've just been bitten by the "no reply-to line" bug. Never mind, here is my message again... On 26 Oct 94 00:21:00 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: > Most people seem to view the sam as just a speccy with more ram and better > graphics:-( Isn't it? :-) > I think the crappy machine-code DOS interface is one reason why > most applictions are totally ram-bound, and because most applications are > ram-bound, disk based utils like ARC,LHA,ZIP arn't usable... That is perhaps more to do with the fact that floppy disks are a bit slow for running disk-intensive programs (plus you can't actually get a great deal of stuff on a 780K disk). Also, perhaps it's just because no one has written those things yet. Personally I'd like to see a gzip for Sam, and I may write one if I ever get round to it. > LOAD d1;a$ > the ; has to be used as a seperator or it screws up! > Of course if the +D syntax is duplicated entirely then using:- > LOAD D*;a$ Why doesn't he just go the whole hog and have LOAD *"d";1;"a_file" ? :-) > I'm begining to think that a full-blown banked unix would be MOST useful! No it wouldn't. The Sam is slow enough as it is, and besides a "proper" Unix requires a hardware memory management unit. Unix also requires a large mass storage device. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 26 12:50:21 1994 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 12:51:00 MET From: Milan Salajka Subject: C for Sam To: sam-users Message-Id: <"alfie.uib..261:26.09.94.12.43.15"@uib.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 2516 Lines: 66 Hi all, >> It's history - now. My friend - Marian Krivos - RUMSOFT (author >> of eq. ARCHIV II, EDI-PRO) told me, that he has finished first >> version of his C compiler. I'll receive it very soon for beta tests... > Goody goody.....gimme gimme :) I think so. :-) >> He told me, that it's standart/ansi C compiler. I'll report >> here later. So, i don't know, if it is public domain or shareware, >> but i want to upload it to sam ftp server (if possible, of course). > Should be no problem at all. I think so. :-) > So when does C++ get added? So, i don't know. It rests on Marian. > Well, I'll pay 20 quid for it if it's not PD. Any more and I'll spend the > hassle porting Hitech C, cos at least I'll know that'll work well :) > Sorry to be cynical, but I've had enough of Sam software that screws up > my disks and resets the machine just when I try to printf 'hello world' > or whatever... I have got this compiler now. I received it yesterday. It looks GREAT! Anyway, here is a small list of features: Small "C" compiler is not full C language, but with ANSI C features. Software package includes editor, compiler, debugger and viewer. The result of compilation isn't binary code BUT Comet assembler source. (Wow, you can optimize by hand.) In fact, you need Comet assembler to make bin code. On install disk are: "C", a lot of libraries, sources, etc. It takes about 200 kB. Limits: types float, long, struct and union aren't implemented yet. You can't use sizeof and static local variables. Names of variables have any length, but only first 8 chars have sense. Minimal length of names are two chars. Expand: some new features with declaration of functions. Types: char, short, int and unsigned versions. Directives: #include, #ifdef, #ifndef, #else, #endif, #define, #undef, #asm, #endasm, #ifdeclared. #typedef is not implemented yet. Speed of compilation is about 10 lines per second. Full screen editor looks like a Comet editor. Length of source code is limited by RAM (more than 300 kB...). Compiler has options - you can prefere length or speed. Runtime library has this functions: putch, getch, getch, stream, print, puts, fputs, number, fputc... Onn disk are libraries for graphics, io... This is a BETA version for testers only, and it has probably some bugs, so i didn't tested it yet, because i have it not so long. :-) So, for more info contact me by e-mail, or here. See yoy Milan From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 26 13:45:18 1994 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 14:26:58 MET From: Milan Salajka Subject: Mouse To: sam-users Message-Id: <"alfie.uib..935:26.09.94.13.31.03"@uib.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 211 Lines: 9 Hi, does anyone has connected any PC serial mouse to Sam ? Or Amiga/St mouse (without Sam Mouse Interface from West Coast...) ? It means connected with simple (easy to make and cheap) interface. Milan From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 26 14:36:49 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 14:00:53 +0000 In-Reply-To: SALAJKA -- "Mouse" (Oct 26, 2:26pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Mouse Status: RO Content-Length: 463 Lines: 11 On Oct 26, 2:26pm in "Mouse", Milan warbled: ] does anyone has connected any PC serial mouse to Sam ? Or Amiga/St ] mouse (without Sam Mouse Interface from West Coast...) ? ] ] It means connected with simple (easy to make and cheap) interface. Someone did it via the joystick port... but I can't for the life of me remember who it was. It failed basically because Samco weren't behind it. Geoff (gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk / gaw2@york.ac.uk -- INET) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 26 17:08:29 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410261652.AA19640@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: C for Sam To: SALAJKA@CZ.CVUT.EARN (Milan Salajka) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 17:52:28 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..261:26.09.94.12.43.15"@uib.no> from "Milan Salajka" at Oct 26, 94 12:51:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 2637 Lines: 70 Hi there! > > So when does C++ get added? > > So, i don't know. It rests on Marian. Not needed. C is more than good enough! > > Well, I'll pay 20 quid for it if it's not PD. Any more and I'll spend the > > hassle porting Hitech C, cos at least I'll know that'll work well :) Agreed! > > Sorry to be cynical, but I've had enough of Sam software that screws up > > my disks and resets the machine just when I try to printf 'hello world' > > or whatever... That could be a problem yes... > I have got this compiler now. I received it yesterday. It looks GREAT! Goody! > Anyway, here is a small list of features: > > Small "C" compiler is not full C language, but with ANSI C features. > Software package includes editor, compiler, debugger and viewer. > The result of compilation isn't binary code BUT Comet assembler > source. (Wow, you can optimize by hand.) In fact, you need Comet > assembler to make bin code. Hmmmmm....Would that mean that I would have to buy the Comet Assembler too????? Hmmmm.....sounds very much like various packages released by Microsoft..... > On install disk are: "C", a lot of libraries, sources, etc. It > takes about 200 kB. > Limits: types float, long, struct and union aren't implemented > yet. You can't use sizeof and static local variables. Names > of variables have any length, but only first 8 chars have > sense. Minimal length of names are two chars. > Expand: some new features with declaration of functions. > Types: char, short, int and unsigned versions. > Directives: #include, #ifdef, #ifndef, #else, #endif, > #define, #undef, #asm, #endasm, #ifdeclared. #typedef > is not implemented yet. > Speed of compilation is about 10 lines per second. > Full screen editor looks like a Comet editor. Length of > source code is limited by RAM (more than 300 kB...). > Compiler has options - you can prefere length or speed. > Runtime library has this functions: putch, getch, > getch, stream, print, puts, fputs, number, fputc... > Onn disk are libraries for graphics, io... > Looks quite goody.... > This is a BETA version for testers only, and it has > probably some bugs, so i didn't tested it yet, because > i have it not so long. :-) > > So, for more info contact me by e-mail, or here. Would you mind uploading it to ftp.nvg.unit.no /pub/sam-coupe/incoming? -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 26 20:20:34 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: Milan Salajka , sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 14:03:53 GMT Subject: Re: C for Sam X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <2CF97035225@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 2761 Lines: 65 > >> It's history - now. My friend - Marian Krivos - RUMSOFT (author > >> of eq. ARCHIV II, EDI-PRO) told me, that he has finished first > >> version of his C compiler. I'll receive it very soon for beta tests... EDI-PRO? > >> He told me, that it's standart/ansi C compiler. I'll report > >> here later. So, i don't know, if it is public domain or shareware, > >> but i want to upload it to sam ftp server (if possible, of course). What size of program maximum? Will it use the whole memory instead of just the 64k address space? If so, can it be altered to use virtual memory on a hard drive? BTW: If it's up to snuff, I might want to put it in the MultiROM -- so I'll have to get back to you on that. Financial return won't be too good on it though -- we're trying to make it cost as little as possible, and we've only got 10 pounds budgeted for profit -- so that'll be about 50 pence per multirom per author -- or something like that :( > I have got this compiler now. I received it yesterday. It looks GREAT! > > Anyway, here is a small list of features: > > Small "C" compiler is not full C language, but with ANSI C features. > Software package includes editor, compiler, debugger and viewer. > The result of compilation isn't binary code BUT Comet assembler > source. (Wow, you can optimize by hand.) In fact, you need Comet > assembler to make bin code. > On install disk are: "C", a lot of libraries, sources, etc. It > takes about 200 kB. > Limits: types float, long, struct and union aren't implemented > yet. You can't use sizeof and static local variables. Names > of variables have any length, but only first 8 chars have > sense. Minimal length of names are two chars. > Expand: some new features with declaration of functions. > Types: char, short, int and unsigned versions. > Directives: #include, #ifdef, #ifndef, #else, #endif, > #define, #undef, #asm, #endasm, #ifdeclared. #typedef > is not implemented yet. > Speed of compilation is about 10 lines per second. > Full screen editor looks like a Comet editor. Length of > source code is limited by RAM (more than 300 kB...). > Compiler has options - you can prefere length or speed. > Runtime library has this functions: putch, getch, > getch, stream, print, puts, fputs, number, fputc... > Onn disk are libraries for graphics, io... > > This is a BETA version for testers only, and it has > probably some bugs, so i didn't tested it yet, because > i have it not so long. :-) > > So, for more info contact me by e-mail, or here. > > See yoy > Milan PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send me a copy!!!! Upload it to jumper.mcc.ac.uk by ftp (login as anonymous) THANKSS!!!! Si Cooke From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 26 21:23:45 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 16:08:35 GMT Subject: New SAM Coupe technical manual X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <2D1AB2D4916@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 523 Lines: 15 I'm writing a new technical manual (approx 300 pages long) Anyone want anything specific put in it? (I'll post up a contents page tomorrow) Oh, and if you've got a SAMCo mouse interface and it acts like it's buggered, with glitches all the time, it's your power rails (the HCT chips in it don't like the SAM's glitchy supply), so shove a couple of the biggest capacitors you can find inside your SAM across the +5v and 0v rails... That'll sort it out, and you'll have no more mouse problems of that sort. Si COoke From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 11:03:37 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar), sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 12:03:13 GMT Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <2E59529368B@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 1915 Lines: 57 > ] I'm writing a new technical manual (approx 300 pages long) > > What... another one??? Yep, another one :) > I thought Mat of ESI (or someone) was going to do that... He was, but I've actually started putting it on paper, and have got it in a preliminary worked out form. Even priced it (25 quid for a fully hard-back bound copy, 15 quid for a ring-bound copy (probably be a lever arch file -- there's going to be about 300 pages in it) > Alternatively, if you wish to actually get something done, > you can either talk (and talk and talk) to Dave Ledbury, > or you can talk to Si Cooke and, let's face it, after that, > you'll feel so inadequate at the pathetic attempts of > projects that you're currently thinking of that you'll never > want to do anything again. What??????? (Well, the Dave Ledbury bit is true)... > Not that I'm bitter or anything... but you're so _damn_ intimidating, Si... > > :) *I'm* damn intimidating????? How? (erk... fumble) > Which brings me back to my Sam Prime article... what did I say... at least > 4 people working on designs for a Hard Drive? I think maybe 40 would have > been closer... heheheheheh > ] (I'll post up a contents page tomorrow) > > I tell you what... how about uploading a draft Postscript version > to ftp.nvg.unit.no? Okay then -- maybe I will :) > ] Oh, and if you've got a SAMCo mouse interface and it acts like it's > ] buggered, with glitches all the time, it's your power rails (the HCT > ] chips in it don't like the SAM's glitchy supply), so shove a couple > ] of the biggest capacitors you can find inside your SAM across the +5v > ] and 0v rails... > > Aha... the best piece of news I've heard _all_ week... > > Now where's that old copy of Batz 'n' Balls... Hehehehehehehehehe! (Of course, if you're talking COPIES of Batz 'n' Balls, I can do you a nice DOS copyable.... <<>>) Si Cooke From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 12:02:21 1994 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 18:43:19 GMT From: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk) Reply-To: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <4297@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: (none) X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Status: RO Content-Length: 279 Lines: 11 Adrian Parker made the Joymouse. I have one here. Simon Goodwin wrote the Serial driver for a Serial mouse Brian -- briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk - Email for Speccy membranes Brian Gaff is B G Services - UK support for 'Z80' The Spectrum Emulator From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 12:51:29 1994 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Hard Drive standard file structure... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 12:46:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 1044 Lines: 32 Subject: Hard-Drive DOS standard for SAM Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Summary: Keywords: Hello everyone... The time has come to work out the standard file structure for this new hard-drive thingummybob... I'm going to see about posting this to the SAM Users mail thingy as well, and I'll see if I can post all input from that here too... Basically, how should we arrange it all? I'd like a filesystem that has no limits on no' of files, allows user status (ie password protected areas, file groups, etc.... to allow networking / fileserver activity if it ever happens)... Basically, we've got to define how we're going to store the files on the disc, how it finds them when they're stored there, and what's held in the directory structure. Any ideas anyone? I'm currently thinking of 64 chars per directory entry, allowing 20 character (or so) filenames, with possibly a quick-to-access file system (ie one that is a combination of FAT and sector/head/track at the end of each logical sector (ala SAM)). So there you go... Si COoke From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 13:29:29 1994 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 27 Oct 94 13:20 GMT From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: (fwd) Re: Hard-Drive DOS standard for SAM Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Status: RO Content-Length: 4451 Lines: 102 Path: yama.mcc.ac.uk!doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!rjk1002 From: rjk1002@hermes.cam.ac.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Hard-Drive DOS standard for SAM Date: 27 Oct 1994 13:15:53 GMT Organization: Cambridge University Lines: 91 Message-ID: <38o969$b6o@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> References: <38o7cn$btr@yama.mcc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: myrddin.chu.cam.ac.uk In article <38o7cn$btr@yama.mcc.ac.uk>, Simon Cooke wrote: >Hello everyone... > >The time has come to work out the standard file structure for this new >hard-drive thingummybob... > >I'm going to see about posting this to the SAM Users mail thingy as well, >and I'll see if I can post all input from that here too... Not a SAM user, but I do have a couple of thoughts on the subject... The following are opinions only, E&OE, etc. >Basically, how should we arrange it all? > >I'd like a filesystem that has no limits on no' of files, 32 bit file numbers (inode numbers, in Unix terminology), 32 bit file lengths, etc should solve most of the potential problems. Make directories real files (as far as the file system is concerned, even if not the user); then no limits on file size => no limits on number of files in a directory. >allows user >status (ie password protected areas, file groups, etc.... to allow >networking / fileserver activity if it ever happens)... As you are probably aware, Unix associates with each file one user and one group; the user has read, write and execute rights (or not), likewise the group, and likewise everyone else. This is not sufficient. In a multi-user environment it is nice to have some concept of supervisory rights -- i.e. the ability to change the rights pertaining to the file. Under Unix, only the user who owns the file can do this; hence in shared files, the user who creates the file (and therefore owns it) must remember to arrange for appropriate other users to be able to write to it! Novell does things a bit better, but has too many distinct types of rights, and it is too easy to shoot one's self in the foot and delete _all_ your rights over a file! Password protected files might be best implemented simply by requiring a password to join a particular group; this removes the need for password protection from the file system. Of course, without any memory protetction, security is a little tricky. (The point of the execute right is not to _stop_ people from running things -- if you can read it, you can make a copy and set the execute bit on that. The point is to indicate which files it is sensible to execute.) >Basically, we've got to define how we're going to store the files on the >disc, how it finds them when they're stored there, and what's held in the >directory structure. > >Any ideas anyone? > >I'm currently thinking of 64 chars per directory entry, allowing 20 >character (or so) filenames, with possibly a quick-to-access file system (ie >one that is a combination of FAT and sector/head/track at the end of each >logical sector (ala SAM)). There are some advantages to the Unix system where a directory entry consists of a name and a number -- and nothing else. The number says where to look up further information on the file; through this mechanism, many filenames may refer to a single file. Of course, since the information on any one file is stored in two places on the disk, things slow down a bit; but you will only need the filename part when actually opening (deleting, renaming...) a file. There are real disadvantages to putting the 'next' block number at the end of each block. It will badly slug any operations which involve seeking back and forth through a file (especially back.) It is unlikely to significantly improve plain serial loading times over a DOS-like FAT since one would usually maintain most or all of the FAT in memory anyway (depends how big the disk is, but unless you have bad fragmentation -- which can be cured -- one file's FAT entries will only occupy two or three distinct blocks at most.) You might like to come up with some fun strategy to make sure that accidentally deleted files are as easy as possible to retrieve, e.g. not using the disk space they occupy until there is no alternative. But, this would probably lead to very bad fragmentation. -- Richard Kettlewell rjk1002@hermes.cam.ac.uk, rjk1002@cam.ac.uk, rjk1002@phx.cam.ac.uk, CUWoCS VP, SF nut and Jomsviking. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 13:36:30 1994 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 94 14:13:42 MET From: Milan Salajka Subject: C, Edi Pro, ... To: sam-users Message-Id: <"alfie.uib..127:27.09.94.13.27.36"@uib.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 763 Lines: 21 Hi! I have only 5 min. to write this mail, then quickly... I'll answer all questions about C next week, because i haven't time now, sorry. Edi-Pro is really 'professional' text editor for Sam. It has many many features as editors on PC... Eg.: prop. fonts, macros, good printer support, blocks, ... About uploading C to ftp - i have to contact Marian, because he is author. I have the C for testings... So, Marian is from Slovakia and i'm from Prague, then mailing is too slow. :-( Marian wrote a lot of great programs, i have about 5 disks of his software, sources, ... Eg: Sam Vision, Decompiler (it converts code to source, it makes labels, test self modifing programs... very interesting) etc. Sorry, i have to go. Milan From imc Thu Oct 27 14:30:45 1994 Subject: Re: Hard Drive standard file structure... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 27 Oct 94 14:30:45 GMT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 2107 Lines: 55 Aaargh I've done it again! Never mind, here is a repost... On Thu, 27 Oct 1994 12:46:41 +0000 (GMT), Simon Cooke said: > The time has come to work out the standard file structure for this new > hard-drive thingummybob... > > I'd like a filesystem that has no limits on no' of files, allows user > status (ie password protected areas, file groups, etc.... to allow > networking / fileserver activity if it ever happens)... > Basically, we've got to define how we're going to store the files on the > disc, how it finds them when they're stored there, and what's held in the > directory structure. Well there are already several file structures available, so wouldn't it be easier to choose one of those rather than invent another one? :-) Basically, there's... Sam format Yeah, right. :-) CP/M Gives a root directory with a fixed number of file names of length 8.3. I don't know whether it allows other directories or not. File allocation is stored per file in the directory; long files are allowed but take up several directory slots. FAT (not too well up on this one) Gives a root directory with a fixed number of file names of length 8.3 and allows a directory structure. Requires a sizeable portion of the disk to store the FAT and is not so good for random access. HPFS (even less well up on this one) Allows free-format file names and is apparently faster than FAT (hence the name, "high performance file system"). Unix Each directory is a file containing a simple linked list of i-node/ filename pairs. File allocation is stored per file in i-nodes which can be kept fairly small (say 32 or 64 bytes) while allowing file sizes of up to 64M even on "small" file systems. Requires a sizeable proportion of the disk to store enough i-nodes for the whole disk and hence has an upper limit to the total number of files stored. Allows each file to have characteristics such as owner, mode, type etc. I'm sure that didn't help at all, though I think you should go for the Unix approach. imc (trying to pretend he listened at operating system classes) From imc Thu Oct 27 16:52:17 1994 Subject: Re: Hard Drive standard file structure... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 27 Oct 94 16:52:17 GMT In-Reply-To: <22435.199410271638@stone>; from "Nigel J Kettlewell" at Oct 27, 94 4:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 587 Lines: 19 On Thu, 27 Oct 1994 16:38:50 +0000 (GMT), you said: > > Sam format > Forget it - not workable for a HD system. I though I had summed that up with the phrase "Yeah, right. :-)" - but obviously not. > > I'm sure that didn't help at all, though I think you should go for the Unix > > approach. > Yeah, it's good but has features that maybe we don't need (?) Not really. You don't _have_ to have a bit in the mode that signifies a named pipe or keep the "device number" element of the i-node. I was referring to the general structure, not the exact definition of ... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 18:09:16 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410271806.AA29685@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: CSL@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 19:06:12 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <2E59529368B@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 27, 94 12:03:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 1530 Lines: 48 Say...where is those mysterious reply-to-reply-mails come from? I haven't seen the reply to the reply of this reply on this list..... > > ] I'm writing a new technical manual (approx 300 pages long) > > > > What... another one??? > > Yep, another one :) Is sadly needed. > > ] (I'll post up a contents page tomorrow) > > > > I tell you what... how about uploading a draft Postscript version > > to ftp.nvg.unit.no? > > Okay then -- maybe I will :) Yeah, pleace do! BTW: I've just moved Entropy Experience into ./demos/entropy and tried to clean up stuff. > > > ] Oh, and if you've got a SAMCo mouse interface and it acts like it's > > ] buggered, with glitches all the time, it's your power rails (the HCT > > ] chips in it don't like the SAM's glitchy supply), so shove a couple > > ] of the biggest capacitors you can find inside your SAM across the +5v > > ] and 0v rails... Hmmmm...I think I have a 220 fahrad back home. Would that do? > > Aha... the best piece of news I've heard _all_ week... > > > > Now where's that old copy of Batz 'n' Balls... > > Hehehehehehehehehe! > > (Of course, if you're talking COPIES of Batz 'n' Balls, I can do you > a nice DOS copyable.... <<>>) Hmmm...be a good boy, Si, or I'd have to tell on you! :) -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 18:26:21 1994 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 27 Oct 94 04:59:00 +0000 Subject: RE: SAM C compiler Message-Id: Organization: Centronics BBS To: Sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2161 Lines: 74 On <25 Oct 94 15:38> D.J.Doore@Lmu.Ac.Uk wrote: D.> The Lord of Adders black did speaketh: >> From: sam-users-owner >> To: sam >> Subject: SAM C compiler >> Date: 25 October 1994 15:29 >> >> Geoff Winkly man said >> >> > So when does C++ get added? >> >> Why do you want C++ - it's a bag of shit D.> Too right, C++ is pap - If I wanted to D.> messed about by classes and D.> such like, I would have become a teacher. >> >> >Well, I'll pay 20 quid for it if it's >> >not PD. Any more and I'll spend D.> the >> >hassle porting Hitech C, cos at least >> >I'll know that'll work well D.> :) >> >> I agree - 20 or even 30 >> D.> 20 yes, 30's a bit steep. >> Lord B' D.> Dan Doore Small-C is PD and this small-c port is just that, so the compiler has to be free! If he owns the editor or is licesned he can charge for that and *maybe* any unique io routines to talk to the sam operating system, as long as they're his own work entirely! I do realise though that it's everyone else not the person whose ported it that's talking of paying cash for the pd product, All that aside Small-c version2 is infinatly better than spectrum HiSoft C even if it isn't an ANSI compliant C! floats arn't a great loss in C but many file processing utils would be lost without long & ulong data types! I'll have a look at the cp/m port and cpc native ports to see what's involved, when I get some free time:-) I hope he's altered the optimiser so that it correctly recognises the new comet assembler source format.... The porting of HiTech C to sam native mode would be a bit difficult as the supplied source only covers all the lib functions and the C.COM commandline parser/pseudo-make part. The source to the pre-processor, syntax-checker, code-generator, peep-hole optimiser, assembler and linker they've kept to tghemselves to stop complete ports! There's only enough to make a cross-compiler from CP/M. CYL. Johnathan. ___ Olms 1.60 [Evaluation] -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 18:26:22 1994 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 27 Oct 94 04:59:00 +0000 Subject: Re: Mouse Message-Id: Organization: Centronics BBS To: Sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1007 Lines: 31 On <26 Oct 94 15:00> Gaw-A@Minster.York.Ac.Uk (Mars Bar) wrote: Ga> On Oct 26, 2:26pm in "Mouse", Milan warbled: Ga> ] does anyone has connected any PC serial mouse to Sam ? Or Amiga/St Ga> ] mouse (without Sam Mouse Interface from West Coast...) ? Ga> ] Ga> ] It means connected with simple (easy to make and cheap) interface. Ga> Someone did it via the joystick Ga> port... but I can't for the life of me Ga> remember who it was. It failed Ga> basically because Samco weren't behind it. That was the Joy-mouse! I heard from Brian Gaff that it had been done using the normal comms interface and serial mouse, can't remeber who he said did it as appart from the ease of reading, it was NOT a cheap method as it requires a comms interface to itself plus the cost of the mouse & addaptor if required! Regards Johnathan. ___ Olms 1.60 [Evaluation] -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 27 18:26:34 1994 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 27 Oct 94 04:59:00 +0000 Subject: @2:2501/102 Message-Id: Organization: Centronics BBS To: Sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3981 Lines: 111 Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... On <26 Oct 94 13:01> Ian.Collier@Comlab.Ox.Ac. wrote: IC> Aargh, I've just been bitten by the IC> "no reply-to line" bug. hehe.. I'd be stuck out of the exchange as at no point during the subscription process is the FQDN for submissions revealed! For those that read this list but don't know the address to post to it's:- sam-users@nvg.unit.no IC> Never mind, here is my message again... IC> On 26 Oct 94 00:21:00 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: >> Most people seem to view the sam as >> just a speccy with more ram and better >> graphics:-( IC> Isn't it? :-) Nope it's a disc-based z80 machine with builtin graphics and a flexible enough ram/rom banking system to allow it to run any portable z80 operatings system from the humble speccy, cpm/m2 or 3, probably turbodos and even unix! >> I think the crappy >> machine-code DOS interface is one reason why >> most applictions are totally ram-bound, and because most >> applications are ram-bound, disk based utils like >> ARC,LHA,ZIP arn't usable... IC> That is perhaps more to do with the IC> fact that floppy disks are a bit slow IC> for running disk-intensive programs IC> (plus you can't actually get a great IC> deal of stuff on a 780K disk). Also, That's another moan I have, I hate the Disciple format on the sam, it was a bad enough idea on the disciple! drives would reliably read&write 84+ tracks but the stupid fixed allocation map mean't that the extra space cannot be used within the file-system! And to restrict the Sam Ram-drives to the same format restrictions was ludicrous IMHO who needs all those 780k ram-drives? a single ram-drive upto 4meg in size would've been MUCH better for real data handling! Most other serious operating systems are disc based, even if the larger memory models use a substantial disc-buffer in ram to reduce drive accesses in a multi-tasking enviroment! IC> perhaps it's just because no one has IC> written those things yet. Personally IC> I'd like to see a gzip for Sam, and I IC> may write one if I ever get round to it. AFAIK gzip is useless without tar to make sam-dos filetypes a generic serial file! LHARC could be used to do that much simpler and in less space and in one process! >> LOAD d1;a$ >> the ; has to be used as a seperator or it screws up! >> Of course if the +D syntax is >> duplicated entirely then using:- >> LOAD D*;a$ IC> Why doesn't he just go the whole hog and have IC> LOAD *"d";1;"a_file" IC> ? :-) Ya never know, he might've tried;-) >> I'm begining to think that a full-blown >> banked unix would be MOST useful! IC> No it wouldn't. The Sam is slow IC> enough as it is, and besides a "proper" IC> Unix requires a hardware memory IC> management unit. Unix also requires a IC> large mass storage device. 1) If you're after high speed to compete with 66MHz DX2 then a z80 is always going to disapoint! 2) There's nothing non-unix about total swapping to a swap-files on a ram-drive. 3) My Sam has 4Meg external Ram fitted and functioning! So even without my IDE-HD interface and drive I'd still have plenty of space for unix to run in! Obviously the multi-task facility would be functional but NOT for general use. It'd normally only get used if say a remote user was logged in and the operator (me) needed to do somthing important! otherwise it'd be only running a single task but using the unix parent/child processing to seriously simplify the linking of programs actions to make a powerful if not blindingly fast system:-) Anyway as I'm a lone hacker I doubt that any of the operating systems I devise will ever be run on other peoples sams anyway, so I doubt it'll ever be somthing that needs to be *sold* to the masses:-) CYL. Johnathan. ___ Olms 1.60 [Evaluation] -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From imc Fri Oct 28 13:06:07 1994 Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:06:07 GMT In-Reply-To: ; from "Johnathan Taylor" at Oct 27, 94 4:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 2691 Lines: 57 On 27 Oct 94 04:59:00 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: > Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Just a small point... could you tell your software to put this line in the header instead of in the body of your message? > Most other serious operating systems are disc based, even if the larger memory > models use a substantial disc-buffer in ram to reduce drive accesses in a > multi-tasking enviroment! Most other serious operating systems assume that you have a large rapid- access disk drive and a CPU which has MMU and basic multitasking facilities (note: MSDOS does not qualify as a "serious" operating system). > AFAIK gzip is useless without tar to make sam-dos filetypes a generic serial > file! Not at all. Most things that get compressed are code files and they don't come with any particular information that you need in order to run them (they have a start address, but it isn't strictly necessary. Some existing compressors such as powercrunch (which isn't that powerful at all) make you specify the starting address for obvious reasons. In any case, the gzip header might well be able to contain the filetype information. > LHARC could be used to do that much simpler and in less space and in one > process! I don't know what LHARC is. Why is there such a large variety of file formats around (lbr, arc/ark, lha, hqx, zip, zoo, lzh, several forms of lzw, tar, ...)? It seems that every time someone wants to archive something they invent a new format for it instead of using one of the commonly available ones. Anyway, the compression rate of ".tar.gz" is hard to beat, so if you want to make everyone use lharc you'd better be sure of what you are doing... > Obviously the multi-task facility would be functional but NOT for general use. > It'd normally only get used if say a remote user was logged in and the > operator (me) needed to do somthing important! A remote user logged in to a Sam? Get real! > otherwise it'd be only running > a single task but using the unix parent/child processing to seriously simplify > the linking of programs actions to make a powerful if not blindingly fast > system:-) You can't make a useable Unix process hierarchy on a Sam. It hasn't got basic memory allocation facilities. Sure, if all your programs are below 32K then you can page them in and out without too much trouble. But how are you going to run programs which are over 32K? There's no way you can prevent one process from reading or scribbling over another process's memory and/or screwing up the entire system. Sorry, but if I want a useable Unix system I'll buy a 486 or a 68040... imc From imc Fri Oct 28 13:25:29 1994 Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:25:29 GMT In-Reply-To: <199410271806.AA29685@ulke.hiMolde.no>; from "Frode Tennebo" at Oct 27, 94 7:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 447 Lines: 14 On Thu, 27 Oct 1994 19:06:12 +0100 (MET), Frode Tennebo said: > Say...where is those mysterious reply-to-reply-mails come from? > I haven't seen the reply to the reply of this reply on this > list..... The ones you (I mean we) missed were probably sent with "reply", so they went to the sender instead of to the whole list. > Hmmmm...I think I have a 220 fahrad back home. Would that do? Hold on, that's enough for a rechargable battery! imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 28 13:52:58 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: Sam Users Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:45:00 PDT Message-Id: <2EB162A8@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 23 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 628 Lines: 23 > On Thu, 27 Oct 1994 19:06:12 +0100 (MET), Frode Tennebo said: > > Say...where is those mysterious reply-to-reply-mails come from? > > I haven't seen the reply to the reply of this reply on this > > list..... > > The ones you (I mean we) missed were probably sent with "reply", so they > went to the sender instead of to the whole list. > > > Hmmmm...I think I have a 220 fahrad back home. Would that do? > > Hold on, that's enough for a rechargable battery! Never mind a battery, a 220 fahrad capacitor could store most of the charge this planet could produce. Perchance a 220 micro-fahrad one..... Dan Doore. > imc > > From imc Fri Oct 28 13:59:06 1994 Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:59:06 GMT In-Reply-To: <2EB162A8@courier.lmu.ac.uk>; from "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" at Oct 28, 94 1:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 393 Lines: 10 On Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:45:00 PDT, Doore, Daniel [MIS] said: > Never mind a battery, a 220 fahrad capacitor could store most of the charge > this planet could produce. Rot. If my calculations are correct, a .5Ah 9V rechargable battery is equivalent to a 200 farad capacitor (well, I say "equivalent", but they are in fact completely different things). A farad is one amp-second per volt. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 28 14:32:03 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: Sam Users Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 14:27:00 PDT Message-Id: <2EB16CA9@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 28 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 897 Lines: 28 > From: sam-users-owner > To: sam-users > Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual > Date: 28 October 1994 14:59 > > On Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:45:00 PDT, Doore, Daniel [MIS] said: > > Never mind a battery, a 220 fahrad capacitor could store most of the charge > > this planet could produce. > > Rot. If my calculations are correct, a .5Ah 9V rechargable battery is > equivalent to a 200 farad capacitor (well, I say "equivalent", but they > are in fact completely different things). A farad is one amp-second per > volt. All capacitors are measures in micro-farads, a single farad is an huge amount of electrical charge, As I recall the definition of a farad is the capacitance of a capacitor of which a potential of 1 volt is created by a charge of one coulomb. And since this is an SI unit, the plates would have to be 1 metre square, and 1 metre apart. We are talking big. Dan. > imc > From imc Fri Oct 28 14:40:46 1994 Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 14:40:46 GMT In-Reply-To: <2EB16CA9@courier.lmu.ac.uk>; from "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" at Oct 28, 94 2:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 708 Lines: 16 On Fri, 28 Oct 94 14:27:00 PDT, Doore, Daniel [MIS] said: > All capacitors are measures in micro-farads, This is not true. Some are measured in nanofarads, and some in picofarads. And yes, there are just one or two that are measured in farads. > And since this is an SI unit, the plates would > have to be 1 metre square, and 1 metre apart. As you know, there is a formula for the capacitance of two plates which is some constant multiplied by the area over the separation distance. The capacitor you have described would probably have a rather small capacitance. It is not necessary to give a physical definition for something which you have defined in electrical terms. imc From gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk Fri Oct 28 14:42:05 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 14:29:36 +0000 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual" (Oct 28, 2:59pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: Ian.Collier@uk.ac.oxford.comlab Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 17 On Oct 28, 2:59pm in "Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual", you warbled: ] On Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:45:00 PDT, Doore, Daniel [MIS] said: ] > Never mind a battery, a 220 fahrad capacitor could store most of the charge ] > this planet could produce. ] ] Rot. If my calculations are correct, a .5Ah 9V rechargable battery is ] equivalent to a 200 farad capacitor (well, I say "equivalent", but they ] are in fact completely different things). A farad is one amp-second per ] volt. Unfortunately, if I remember rightly, a 220farad capacitor would have to be about the size of Europe. Or am I wrong... (I'm sure someone's about to tell me I am...) :) Geoff (: From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 28 15:06:33 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 14:27:57 +0000 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans..." (Oct 28, 2:06pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Status: RO Content-Length: 2179 Lines: 53 On Oct 28, 2:06pm in "Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans...", you warbled: ] > LHARC could be used to do that much simpler and in less space and in one ] > process! ] ] I don't know what LHARC is. Why is there such a large variety of file ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ] formats around (lbr, arc/ark, lha, hqx, zip, zoo, lzh, several forms ] of lzw, tar, ...)? It seems that every time someone wants to archive ] something they invent a new format for it instead of using one of the ] commonly available ones. Anyway, the compression rate of ".tar.gz" is ] hard to beat, so if you want to make everyone use lharc you'd better be ] sure of what you are doing... Ok... first off, lharc is basically the old version of lha, which also incorporates lzh files. The main reason most people invent a new compression utility is because they want to use a specific type of data compression. There's no point in using the Lempel-Ziv compression technique to compress .gif files, for example, you might end up with something bigger than what you started with... if you use .jpg compression, however, you'll get massive reduction in size. lha can be better even than gzip -9 in some cases. It all depends on what you want to compress, and how you want to be able to retrieve it. gzip is clumsy simply _because_ for an archive you have to use tar/shar. lha takes that necessity away. ] A remote user logged in to a Sam? Get real! *grin* but surely the network??? ] You can't make a useable Unix process hierarchy on a Sam. It hasn't got ] basic memory allocation facilities. Actually, technically it does... the HEAP space, for example ?:) What you mean is, there's no way of _enforcing_ it allocations. ] Sorry, but if I want a useable Unix system I'll buy a 486 or a 68040... If _I_ want a useable unix system I'll buy a risc-pc and port Linux. I guess I'm strange that way, but I a) can't stand the '86 range, and b) like the 8-channel sampled sound and the fact that most RISC-OS apps run in about 2Meg Ram and can run (walk!) off a 1.4M floppy. It's soooo cool. Unfortunately, I can't afford the 1800 quid it takes for a decent system. Shame that... :) Geoff (: From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 28 15:57:14 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: gaw-a , Sam Users Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 15:44:00 PDT Message-Id: <2EB17EB7@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 75 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 2033 Lines: 75 ---------- > From: gaw-a > To: Doore, Daniel [MIS] > Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual > Date: 28 October 1994 14:48 > > On Oct 28, 2:27pm in "Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual", you warbled: > ] All capacitors are measures in micro-farads, a single farad is an huge > > ^^ > (sic) > > ] amount of electrical charge, As I recall the definition of a farad is the > ] capacitance of a capacitor of which a potential of 1 volt is created by > ] a charge of one coulomb. And since this is an SI unit, the plates would > ] have to be 1 metre square, and 1 metre apart. > > Ummmm... I think you have that wrong. Sorry. > > 1m apart would give you nothing at all. It was the 1m apart bit I was unsure of, the rest is OK though (I went to the dictionary for that ) > As I remember, C obeys the inverse-square law up to a limit -- ie if you > halve the distance between the plates, you quadruple C. > > ie C is prop. to A/(d^2) where A is the area of the plates. No Idea, I can't remember. > > ] We are talking big. > > Well at least you're right there... **************************************************************************** ******** This was the whole point I was trying to get across without all this physics crap, I didn't want to start arguing on a point that I am very rusty on. Simple facts time: farad = large. capacitors capacitences are mere fractions of farads. chances of getting 220 farad capacitor in anything but a warehouse = small. That was all I was trying to get across. Jeez. **************************************************************************** ******** > Sorry if all this is wrong, but it's nearly 3 years since i understood any > electronics, and nearly 3 months since I actually _did_ any :) :) :) :) It's been 3 years since I last did anything like that, and I didn't much understand it at the time either. Buggered on both fronts. Dan. > Cheers > > :) Geoff (: > > From imc Fri Oct 28 17:20:32 1994 Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 17:20:32 GMT In-Reply-To: ; from "Mars Bar" at Oct 28, 94 2:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1401 Lines: 26 On Fri, 28 Oct 1994 14:29:36 +0000, you said: > Unfortunately, if I remember rightly, a 220farad capacitor would have to be > about the size of Europe. Or am I wrong... Take the smallest 100 microfarad capacitor you have ever seen. Imagine a capacitor that is 130 times as high and has 130 times the diameter. That would be a 220 farad capacitor. It's probably about the size of a dustbin. So yes, you are wrong. :-) Maybe we should actually ask Frode how big his capacitor is... :-) BTW, there are different types of capacitors. The most basic are the good old plates of metal separated by an insulator. Most capacitors below 1 microfarad are this type. If the insulator is SiO2 (which is what mica is), then the capacitance is roughly 3.48E-11 times the area divided by the separation distance. You would need a square of mica which measures about 3.7 km on each side to make a 1 farad capacitor assuming that the mica is 0.5mm thick. But most capacitors of 1 microfarad and above are electrolytic capacitors which have a much greater capacity than insulator- sandwich capacitors by virtue of the fact that they are able to store the charge chemically. There may well be a method for making extremely large capacitors which is even more efficient than that (Rechargeable batteries are a special case because they do not have the same charge-vs-voltage curve as "real" capacitors). imc From imc Fri Oct 28 17:30:49 1994 Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 17:30:49 GMT In-Reply-To: ; from "Mars Bar" at Oct 28, 94 2:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1553 Lines: 37 On Fri, 28 Oct 1994 14:27:57 +0000, Mars Bar said: > Ok... first off, lharc is basically the old version of lha, which also > incorporates lzh files. That does not help me in the slightest. > The main reason most people invent a new compression utility is because they > want to use a specific type of data compression. Most of the utilities I mentioned use general-purpose compression which works best for English text, and there's no reason for them all to exist. Compress and gzip are enough (and compress is only in my list because it is standard on Unix). > Lempel-Ziv compression technique to compress .gif files, for example, you > might end up with something bigger than what you started with... if you > use .jpg compression, however, you'll get massive reduction in size. Images are special - they are already compressed. And how many common formats are there? GIF and JPEG dominate and you don't see much else out there. > lha can be better even than gzip -9 in some cases. Could you expand on that? > gzip is clumsy simply _because_ for an archive you have to use tar/shar. lha > takes that necessity away. But the point of tar-ing first instead of letting the archive utility do it is that it usually makes the result smaller. In any case, if you want it all-in-one then there's always zip. It's already common on PCs, and I have a version of it for Unix. On the other hand, I don't particularly feel like getting yet more software (if it exists) for decompressing LHARC files and anything else there might be out there. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri Oct 28 18:02:03 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: Sam Users Subject: Dead Fred Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 11:55:00 PDT Message-Id: <2EAEA60B@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 9 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 243 Lines: 9 My copy of Fred 50 is riddled with sector errors (the first 2 tracks), would any kind soul care to mail me a copy of the disk image (TeleDisk or Mat of ESI's SamDisk) so I can see what the hell is on it as it will save me a stamp. Dan Doore From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat Oct 29 10:00:37 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410290959.AA13826@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: Ian.Collier@uk.ac.oxford.comlab Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 10:59:05 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <9410281306.AA04798@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Oct 28, 94 02:06:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 3107 Lines: 61 > Not at all. Most things that get compressed are code files and they don't > come with any particular information that you need in order to run them > (they have a start address, but it isn't strictly necessary. Some existing > compressors such as powercrunch (which isn't that powerful at all) make you > specify the starting address for obvious reasons. In any case, the gzip > header might well be able to contain the filetype information. I was working on a gzip-like (using LWZ compression) compressor/decompressor, but due to lack of time I never finished them. I believe that at least one of them produces the correct result now. If I get thim, I'll look into them....I remember that the big trick was to read and write a byte to a file on the disc - I found no way of doing that in a simple mc- way, so currently I'm using BASIC calls ;) > > LHARC could be used to do that much simpler and in less space and in one > > process! > > I don't know what LHARC is. Why is there such a large variety of file > formats around (lbr, arc/ark, lha, hqx, zip, zoo, lzh, several forms > of lzw, tar, ...)? It seems that every time someone wants to archive > something they invent a new format for it instead of using one of the > commonly available ones. Anyway, the compression rate of ".tar.gz" is > hard to beat, so if you want to make everyone use lharc you'd better be > sure of what you are doing... True.....and mine is yet another one ;) > > > Obviously the multi-task facility would be functional but NOT for general use. > > It'd normally only get used if say a remote user was logged in and the > > operator (me) needed to do somthing important! > > A remote user logged in to a Sam? Get real! > > > otherwise it'd be only running > > a single task but using the unix parent/child processing to seriously simplify > > the linking of programs actions to make a powerful if not blindingly fast > > system:-) > > You can't make a useable Unix process hierarchy on a Sam. It hasn't got > basic memory allocation facilities. Sure, if all your programs are below > 32K then you can page them in and out without too much trouble. But how > are you going to run programs which are over 32K? There's no way you can > prevent one process from reading or scribbling over another process's memory > and/or screwing up the entire system. Is't this the way DRiVER is working?? I was thinking about a way of 'multiprogramming' in SAM by using 16/32K program-blocks. If you needed bigger programs, you had to call a 'system-routine' that paged in and out the needed 16/32K chunks of memory and making the data-space a part of the 16/32K chunks. > > Sorry, but if I want a useable Unix system I'll buy a 486 or a 68040... I think I'd buy a Pentium or a DEC AIX/OSF........... -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat Oct 29 10:02:18 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410291001.AA13853@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 11:01:08 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <2EB162A8@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" at Oct 28, 94 01:45:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 1085 Lines: 37 > > On Thu, 27 Oct 1994 19:06:12 +0100 (MET), Frode Tennebo said: > > > Say...where is those mysterious reply-to-reply-mails come from? > > > I haven't seen the reply to the reply of this reply on this > > > list..... > > > > The ones you (I mean we) missed were probably sent with "reply", so they > > went to the sender instead of to the whole list. > > > > > Hmmmm...I think I have a 220 fahrad back home. Would that do? > > > > Hold on, that's enough for a rechargable battery! > > Never mind a battery, a 220 fahrad capacitor could store most of the charge > this planet could produce. Errrr.... > > Perchance a 220 micro-fahrad one..... Defenitely 100-something _fahrads_, might be 150, but I think it was 220 - can't check either as it's back home home..... > > Dan Doore. > > > imc > > > > > Frode Tennebo -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat Oct 29 10:04:00 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410291002.AA13887@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: D.J.Doore@lmu.ac.uk (Doore, Daniel [MIS]) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 11:02:47 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <2EB16CA9@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" at Oct 28, 94 02:27:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 1151 Lines: 35 > > On Fri, 28 Oct 94 13:45:00 PDT, Doore, Daniel [MIS] said: > > > Never mind a battery, a 220 fahrad capacitor could store most of the > charge > > > this planet could produce. > > > > Rot. If my calculations are correct, a .5Ah 9V rechargable battery is > > equivalent to a 200 farad capacitor (well, I say "equivalent", but they > > are in fact completely different things). A farad is one amp-second per > > volt. > > All capacitors are measures in micro-farads, a single farad is an huge > amount of electrical charge, As I recall the definition of a farad is the > capacitance of a capacitor of which a potential of 1 volt is created by > a charge of one coulomb. And since this is an SI unit, the plates would > have to be 1 metre square, and 1 metre apart. ok.....220 000 mf then.... ;) > > We are talking big. Yes...it was literally big.... > > Dan. > > > imc > > > -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat Oct 29 10:09:37 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410291008.AA13953@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 11:08:08 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at Oct 28, 94 02:27:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 1895 Lines: 45 > > On Oct 28, 2:06pm in "Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans...", you warbled: > > ] > LHARC could be used to do that much simpler and in less space and in one > ] > process! > ] > ] I don't know what LHARC is. Why is there such a large variety of file > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ] formats around (lbr, arc/ark, lha, hqx, zip, zoo, lzh, several forms > ] of lzw, tar, ...)? It seems that every time someone wants to archive > ] something they invent a new format for it instead of using one of the > ] commonly available ones. Anyway, the compression rate of ".tar.gz" is > ] hard to beat, so if you want to make everyone use lharc you'd better be > ] sure of what you are doing... > > Ok... first off, lharc is basically the old version of lha, which also > incorporates lzh files. > > The main reason most people invent a new compression utility is because they > want to use a specific type of data compression. There's no point in using the > Lempel-Ziv compression technique to compress .gif files, for example, you > might end up with something bigger than what you started with... if you > use .jpg compression, however, you'll get massive reduction in size. Why would you want to use LZW-compression on an already LZW-like compression???? > > lha can be better even than gzip -9 in some cases. It all depends on what > you want to compress, and how you want to be able to retrieve it. For text, it's very difficult to beat gzip. > > gzip is clumsy simply _because_ for an archive you have to use tar/shar. lha > takes that necessity away. tar has the option -z witch makes it much more useable.... -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat Oct 29 10:16:38 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410291015.AA14012@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: Dead Fred To: D.J.Doore@lmu.ac.uk (Doore, Daniel [MIS]) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 11:15:22 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <2EAEA60B@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" at Oct 26, 94 11:55:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 737 Lines: 21 > > > My copy of Fred 50 is riddled with sector errors > (the first 2 tracks), would any kind soul care > to mail me a copy of the disk image > (TeleDisk or Mat of ESI's SamDisk) > so I can see what the hell is on it as it will save > me a stamp. > > Dan Doore > Hey...even better - uploading it to nvg.unit.no (provided of course its more than 12 months old.....errr I seem to remember that Fred just celebrated their 50th birthday, but all issues up to 38 is welcome). -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From Frode.Tennebo@hiMolde.no Sat Oct 29 10:23:53 1994 From: Frode Tennebo Message-Id: <199410291023.AA14063@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: Ian.Collier@uk.ac.oxford.comlab Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 11:23:27 +0100 (MET) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <9410281720.AA05317@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Oct 28, 94 06:20:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Status: RO Content-Length: 914 Lines: 24 > > On Fri, 28 Oct 1994 14:29:36 +0000, you said: > > Unfortunately, if I remember rightly, a 220farad capacitor would have to be > > about the size of Europe. Or am I wrong... > > Take the smallest 100 microfarad capacitor you have ever seen. Imagine a > capacitor that is 130 times as high and has 130 times the diameter. That > would be a 220 farad capacitor. It's probably about the size of a dustbin. > So yes, you are wrong. :-) I have 5.6 f that is about the size of a 100 mf. > > Maybe we should actually ask Frode how big his capacitor is... :-) I was at the size of a fat you-know-what *grin* (about 5 cm across and 10-11 cm long). -- * Frode Tennebo * It's better to live life in * * email: frodet@himolde.no * wealth and die poor, than live * * phone: +47 712 57716 * life in poverty and die rich. * * snail: Parkv. 31, 6400 Molde, NORWAY * -Frode Tennebo* From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat Oct 29 14:28:47 1994 Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 14:35:39 +0100 X400-Originator: sct1000%hermes.cambridge.ac.uk@pp-switch.cambridge.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/; Message-Id: To: SAM-users In-Reply-To: <199410290959.AA13826@ulke.hiMolde.no> Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... X-Sender: sct1000@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Content-Length: 1437 Lines: 31 > > You can't make a useable Unix process hierarchy on a Sam. It hasn't got > > basic memory allocation facilities. Sure, if all your programs are below > > 32K then you can page them in and out without too much trouble. But how > > are you going to run programs which are over 32K? There's no way you can > > prevent one process from reading or scribbling over another process's memory > > and/or screwing up the entire system. > > Is't this the way DRiVER is working?? I was thinking about a way of > 'multiprogramming' in SAM by using 16/32K program-blocks. If you needed > bigger programs, you had to call a 'system-routine' that paged in and > out the needed 16/32K chunks of memory and making the data-space a part > of the 16/32K chunks. > Driver (God I HATE the way Revelation spell it) allocates internal ram pages to applications for program code. Any other available memory is allocated as data when the application requests it, and the application sees this allocation as its logical machine. It seems the obvious way to do it on a SAM - otherwise writing relocatable program code becomes more difficult. As for programs over 32k long... things become difficult. I partially solved the problem by instructing applications either to restrict their size or to page the extra code into himem (section CD) and make calls from there. Things like every application's stack etc. still have to be in the 32k. Steve. From imc Sun Oct 30 12:14:55 1994 Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 30 Oct 94 12:14:55 GMT In-Reply-To: <199410290959.AA13826@ulke.hiMolde.no>; from "Frode Tennebo" at Oct 29, 94 10:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 540 Lines: 15 On Sat, 29 Oct 1994 10:59:05 +0100 (MET), Frode Tennebo said: > I was working on a gzip-like (using LWZ compression) compressor/decompressor, > but due to lack of time I never finished them. Just a small question... isn't the LZW algorithm (as used in Unix "compress") patented? The documentation for gzip says so. > > Sorry, but if I want a useable Unix system I'll buy a 486 or a 68040... > I think I'd buy a Pentium or a DEC AIX/OSF........... I'm talking about things I could afford. Otherwise I'd have a sparc or an SGI... imc From imc Sun Oct 30 12:19:15 1994 Subject: Re: New SAM Coupe technical manual To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 30 Oct 94 12:19:15 GMT In-Reply-To: <199410291002.AA13887@ulke.hiMolde.no>; from "Frode Tennebo" at Oct 29, 94 11:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 251 Lines: 10 On Sat, 29 Oct 1994 11:02:47 +0100 (MET), Frode Tennebo said: > ok.....220 000 mf then.... ;) Do you mean 220 000 mF or 220 000 uF? (i.e. 220 F or .220 F?) I think I once saw a 470 000 uF one, but the biggest I have at the moment is 4700 uF. imc From imc Sun Oct 30 12:21:23 1994 Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 30 Oct 94 12:21:23 GMT In-Reply-To: <199410291008.AA13953@ulke.hiMolde.no>; from "Frode Tennebo" at Oct 29, 94 11:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 317 Lines: 12 On Sat, 29 Oct 1994 11:08:08 +0100 (MET), Frode Tennebo said: > tar has the option -z witch makes it much more useable.... Would you care to describe what that does for those of us for which tar -z says tar: z: unknown option tar: usage: tar -{ctxru}[vfblmhopwBiX] [tapefile] [blocksize] file1 file2... ? imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 01:37:44 1994 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 18:13:32 GMT From: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk) Message-Id: <4322@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam repairs test tools X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 688 Lines: 18 I have a guy who is willing to do servicing on almost anything, build prototypes etc, though obviously he cannot live on fresh air! For SAM, are there any system test programs? I can look out RAMCHECK, but that is a go-no go thing. The Spectrum used to have a gadget with a ROM you could plug in, but have not seen one of those for a while. Bob says they never did anything like this on SAM *surprise*. Bob wants to do away with the 12V in the PSU and generate it from the 5V in the SAM. I think this is a BAD move! Brian -- briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk - Email for Speccy membranes Brian Gaff is B G Services - UK support for 'Z80' The Spectrum Emulator From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 01:37:45 1994 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 18:19:48 GMT From: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk) Message-Id: <4323@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Hard Disc X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 305 Lines: 11 What about something like ZCPR uses. Jonathan, you out there? Its been a while since I read up on it. Are you thinking of partitions? Brian -- briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk - Email for Speccy membranes Brian Gaff is B G Services - UK support for 'Z80' The Spectrum Emulator From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 09:24:38 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk), sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:30:25 GMT Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <3440BBA6543@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1202 Lines: 34 > I have a guy who is willing to do servicing on almost anything, > build prototypes etc, though obviously he cannot live on fresh > air! For SAM, are there any system test programs? I can look out > RAMCHECK, but that is a go-no go thing. WHat is this RAMCHECK program? Can you send me a copy? I'm going to be writing some systems diagnostics software for the MultiROM when I get the chance, but I'm not sure what form it'd take. And I'm pretty sure that the SAM did have *some* form of software -- I think I saw Mark using it at SAMco when I worked there. > The Spectrum used to have a gadget with a ROM you could plug in, > but have not seen one of those for a while. Bob says they never > did anything like this on SAM *surprise*. > > Bob wants to do away with the 12V in the PSU and generate it > from the 5V in the SAM. I think this is a BAD move! Yep... he's also getting rid of the vents in the case and on the base plate. Another bad move again, methinks. Besides, we've got enough supply problems on the SAM as it is -- we don't need more yickky ones... and loading probs would go through the roof. It's bad enough on my sam with just a sambus, one drive and a meg. :( Si From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 09:26:26 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk), sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:32:15 GMT Subject: Re: Hard Disc X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <344137A606E@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 580 Lines: 15 > What about something like ZCPR uses. Jonathan, you out there? > Its been a while since I read up on it. > > Are you thinking of partitions? Yep, there will be a partitioning system set aside. I've got to talk to Jonathan or look up on CP/M partitioning, but it will use the standard MSDOS partition table to allocate space for CP/M partitions, MSDOS partitions, UNIX style partitions and E-DOS partitions (the new DOS I'm working on). Current indications suggest that I should do a mixture of Unix and MSDOS, with a FAT Table and delocalised file information. Si Cooke From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 09:28:02 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk), sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:33:24 GMT Subject: Re: Hard Disc X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <34418675862@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 343 Lines: 11 Oh yes, we've now got an 80Mb drive to test the system on. With a bit of luck we should have a test model with the drive in the second drive bay at the next gloucester show. At worst, it'll have an MSDOS style file system, with SAM style file naming. (THat's if I don't have time to sit down and work out the filing system) Si Cooke From imc Mon Oct 31 10:59:26 1994 Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 10:59:26 GMT In-Reply-To: <4322@bgserv.demon.co.uk>; from "briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk" at Oct 27, 94 6:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 525 Lines: 14 On Thu, 27 Oct 1994 18:13:32 GMT, briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk said: > Bob wants to do away with the 12V in the PSU and generate it > from the 5V in the SAM. I think this is a BAD move! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No kidding? I thought the Speccy's TR4/TR5 (or whatever) circuit had already shown what a wonderful idea this is, and it was a shame that Amstrad thought better of it and released a +3 with the 12V coming from the power supply instead... :-J imc PS hooray for the reply-to line! :-) From imc Mon Oct 31 11:01:46 1994 Subject: Re: RCPT: Re: Sam repairs test tools To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 11:01:46 GMT In-Reply-To: <344191B60D4@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk>; from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 31, 94 10:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 279 Lines: 12 On Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:33:32 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > Confirmation of reading: your message - > > Date: 31 Oct 94 10:30 > To: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools > > Was read at 10:33, 31 Oct 94. What on earth was that?... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 11:13:19 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:58:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: briang -- "Sam repairs test tools" (Oct 27, 6:13pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 697 Lines: 19 On Oct 27, 6:13pm in "Sam repairs test tools", you warbled: ] I have a guy who is willing to do servicing on almost anything, ] build prototypes etc, though obviously he cannot live on fresh ] air! For SAM, are there any system test programs? I can look out ] RAMCHECK, but that is a go-no go thing. ] ] The Spectrum used to have a gadget with a ROM you could plug in, ] but have not seen one of those for a while. Bob says they never ] did anything like this on SAM *surprise*. ] ] Bob wants to do away with the 12V in the PSU and generate it ] from the 5V in the SAM. I think this is a BAD move! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..... 'Nuff said? I think so... :) Geoff (: From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 11:13:20 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:57:55 +0000 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans..." (Oct 30, 1:14pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 258 Lines: 11 On Oct 30, 1:14pm in "Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans...", imc warbled: ] I'm talking about things I could afford. Otherwise I'd have a sparc or an ] SGI... ] ] imc Gimme a Crimson!!! PUUUURRRRRLEEEEEEEEASE........ :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Geoff (: From imc Mon Oct 31 11:18:03 1994 Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 11:18:03 GMT In-Reply-To: ; from "Mars Bar" at Oct 31, 94 10:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 127 Lines: 6 On Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:57:55 +0000, Mars Bar said: > Gimme a Crimson!!! PUUUURRRRRLEEEEEEEEASE........ What's that then? imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 12:26:22 1994 Message-Id: From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 12:04:59 +0000 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans..." (Oct 31, 12:18pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 542 Lines: 14 On Oct 31, 12:18pm in "Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans...", you warbled: ] On Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:57:55 +0000, Mars Bar said: ] > Gimme a Crimson!!! PUUUURRRRRLEEEEEEEEASE........ ] ] What's that then? ] ] imc The better Indy :) usually used for Servers, but standalone it would be... Stompin'... BassKeepsThumpingPumpingJumpingBassKeepsThumpingPumpingJumpingBassKeepsThumping PumpingJumpingBassKeepsPumpingBassKeepsPumpingGimmeASmileForTheFutureAndIHeard ItOnTheRadioAndISawItOnTheTelevisionBackIn1988... gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk From CSL@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk Mon Oct 31 12:45:05 1994 From: Simon Cooke To: Ian.Collier@uk.ac.oxford.comlab, sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:01:29 GMT Subject: Re: RCPT: Re: Sam repairs test tools X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <346902A2F15@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk> Status: RO Content-Length: 463 Lines: 21 > On Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:33:32 GMT, Simon Cooke said: > > Confirmation of reading: your message - > > > > Date: 31 Oct 94 10:30 > > To: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk > > Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools > > > > Was read at 10:33, 31 Oct 94. > > What on earth was that?... > > imc Ooops... side effect of the auto-reply stuff... I'll have to turn off my "Request for confirmation line" Oh, and you'll get another one soon -- sorry! Si From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 13:04:25 1994 Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:55:41 +0100 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<15151.9410311255@pasta.st-andre] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Re: Sam repai... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <15151.9410311255@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 319 Lines: 9 > > Bob wants to do away with the 12V in the PSU and generate it > > from the 5V in the SAM. I think this is a BAD move! > > Yep... he's also getting rid of the vents in the case and on the base > plate. Another bad move again, methinks. You mean he's actually going to get more cases moulded? *gasp* Colin Piggot. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 13:26:33 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: Sam Users Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 11:10:00 PST Message-Id: <2EB55D15@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 30 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 915 Lines: 30 > On Thu, 27 Oct 1994 18:13:32 GMT, briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk said: > > Bob wants to do away with the 12V in the PSU and generate it > > from the 5V in the SAM. I think this is a BAD move! > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > No kidding? > > I thought the Speccy's TR4/TR5 (or whatever) circuit had already shown > what a wonderful idea this is, and it was a shame that Amstrad thought > better of it and released a +3 with the 12V coming from the power supply > instead... :-J How many speccys had two drives, a comms and mouse I/F running off that? I don't like the sound of all that coming of a single 5V supply. I'm not sure if it could handle it, but then again, the PSU is built like a brick... I can't remeber how good the speccy supply was but it got awful warm when I had my WafaDrives running, remember them ;) Dan Doore > imc > > PS hooray for the reply-to line! :-) > From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 13:32:12 1994 Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:27:29 +0100 X400-Originator: cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<15615.9410311327@pasta.st-andre] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Re: Sam repai... From: Colin G Piggot Message-Id: <15615.9410311327@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 455 Lines: 11 > How many speccys had two drives, a comms and mouse I/F running off > that? I don't like the sound of all that coming of a single 5V supply. > > I'm not sure if it could handle it, but then again, the PSU is built like a > brick... The Sam PSU's are quite bad (in my opinion), one of mine has a noisy transformer giving a LOUD 50Hz hum, plus the modulator doesn't work unless you kick it several times... good job the Sam has Scart! Colin Piggot. From imc Mon Oct 31 13:32:15 1994 Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 13:32:15 GMT In-Reply-To: <2EB55D15@courier.lmu.ac.uk>; from "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" at Oct 31, 94 11:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 537 Lines: 13 On Mon, 31 Oct 94 11:10:00 PST, Doore, Daniel [MIS] said: > > I thought the Speccy's TR4/TR5 (or whatever) circuit had already shown > > what a wonderful idea this is, and it was a shame that Amstrad thought > > better of it and released a +3 with the 12V coming from the power supply > > instead... :-J > How many speccys had two drives, a comms and mouse I/F running off > that? I don't like the sound of all that coming of a single 5V supply. Let me just get this straight... you didn't think I was being serious, did you? imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 14:45:36 1994 From: "Doore, Daniel [MIS]" To: Sam Users Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 13:39:00 PST Message-Id: <2EB57297@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 32 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 950 Lines: 32 ---------- > From: sam-users-owner > To: sam-users > Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools > Date: 31 October 1994 14:32 > > On Mon, 31 Oct 94 11:10:00 PST, Doore, Daniel [MIS] said: > > > I thought the Speccy's TR4/TR5 (or whatever) circuit had already shown > > > what a wonderful idea this is, and it was a shame that Amstrad thought > > > better of it and released a +3 with the 12V coming from the power supply > > > instead... :-J > > > How many speccys had two drives, a comms and mouse I/F running off > > that? I don't like the sound of all that coming of a single 5V supply. > > Let me just get this straight... you didn't think I was being serious, did > you? 'Fraid so, irony and satire do not translate well without certain qualifiers (like the infamous ) and since I have not met the ' :-J ' - for all I know it could be a quote from Jeramy Beadle..... Being your average nerk, how am I supposed to know? Dan. > imc > From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 18:31:11 1994 Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 18:22:32 GMT From: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk) Message-Id: <4461@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 228 Lines: 8 How about a Samplifier with internal Video only modulator? Brian -- briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk - Email for Speccy membranes Brian Gaff is B G Services - UK support for 'Z80' The Spectrum Emulator From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 18:32:35 1994 Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 18:20:01 GMT From: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk) Message-Id: <4459@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 247 Lines: 9 I THINK I have talked Bob out of the 5V supply only thing. Fingers crossed... Brian -- briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk - Email for Speccy membranes Brian Gaff is B G Services - UK support for 'Z80' The Spectrum Emulator From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 31 18:51:53 1994 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: Sam repairs test tools To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 18:49:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <4459@bgserv.demon.co.uk> from "briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk" at Oct 31, 94 06:20:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 133 Lines: 9 > > I THINK I have talked Bob out of the 5V supply only thing. > Fingers crossed... Hurrrrahhhhh!!!!! (And the crowd go wild) Si From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 1 07:10:51 1994 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 29 Oct 94 21:18:00 +0000 Subject: @2:2501/102 Message-Id: <972_9410311918@centron.com> Organization: Centronics BBS To: Sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3468 Lines: 87 Subject: Re: Hard Drive standard file structure... On <27 Oct 94 13:46> Simonc@Jumper.Mcc.Ac.Uk wrote: Hi Simon! (and everone else) Si> The time has come to work out the Si> standard file structure for this new Si> hard-drive thingummybob... The ONLY thing I'd like to see on ALL the various file-systems is the facility to Partition a BIG HD so we can run the several different types of file system on the same HD, eg. CP/M defines in it,s DPB a reserved number of tracks as a 16bit value so it can be placed virtually anywhere on a large HD and take up as much space as defined in the dsm field... Any unix style system should also be made to do this as well IMHO:-) I've mentioned this elsewhere before... a small unix style pd filesystem is available in C source form inside the UZI package on oak.oakland.edu It doesn't use 32bit values just 16bit for speed and ease of z80 implementation so each mounted logical drive is restricted to 32Meg in size. With some extensive editing it'll probably even compile under small-C v2! though I think the resultant assembler source would need extensive hand-optimisation as Small-C is not a very clever code generator;-) Si> I'm going to see about posting this to Si> the SAM Users mail thingy as well, Si> and I'll see if I can post all input from that here too... Si> Basically, how should we arrange it all? Si> I'd like a filesystem that has no Si> limits on no' of files, allows user Si> status (ie password protected areas, Si> file groups, etc.... to allow Si> networking / fileserver activity if it ever happens)... I think UZI system should do that... Password protection with xor scrambling of data based on the key should be just a *simple* extension. simple meaning if you can write a filesystem from the ground up this feature should be easy;-) Si> Basically, we've got to define how Si> we're going to store the files on the Si> disc, how it finds them when they're Si> stored there, and what's held in the Si> directory structure. Si> Any ideas anyone? As we're dealing with a fixed drive we can theoretically do what ever we like as it doesn't need to be compatable with ANY other platforms physical format.. So just use the good features of the various systems, make the nesesary comporimises needed to allow acceptable performance on a z80 machine ie if 32bit values slow it down use 16bit pointers and partition large HD's it smaller logical units, after all who needs to process more than 32Meg items on a z80? Si> I'm currently thinking of 64 chars per Si> directory entry, allowing 20 Si> character (or so) filenames, with Si> possibly a quick-to-access file system Si> (ie one that is a combination of FAT and Si> sector/head/track at the end of each Si> logical sector (ala SAM)). 510byte sectors again Si!?! Makes for crappy random-access file performance! ProDos random access is much better than master-dos, not that I'd suggest doing a CP/M style directory structure... I've noticed on this pc1512 running pcrr1.60a olr that it is damned sloooow at random-reading the prior message don't know if that's an MS-DOS problem or somthing to do with the MS-DOS TP runtime package... Plus 510 byte isn't binary maths friendly but 512 is, obviously;-) regards Johnathan. ___ Olms 1.60 [Evaluation] -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 1 07:10:52 1994 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 29 Oct 94 21:18:00 +0000 Subject: @2:2501/102 Message-Id: <975_9410311918@centron.com> Organization: Centronics BBS To: Sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4663 Lines: 123 Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... In a message to Johnathan Taylor <28 Oct 94 12:44> N.J.Kettlewell@Dcs.Warwick.ac.uk wrote: >> Nope it's a disc-based z80 machine with >> builtin graphics and a flexible enough >> ram/rom banking system to allow it to >> run any portable z80 operatings system >> from the humble speccy, cpm/m2 or 3, >> probably turbodos and even unix! N.> UNIX would be unbelievably difficult N.> without any kind of MMU, I think. I never said it'd be easy;-) It'd use total swaping either to ram-disk or combined bank-swap & swap to ram-disk for the section that cannot be easily bank swapped:-) >> That's another moan I have, I hate the >> Disciple format on the sam, it was a >> bad enough idea on the disciple! drives >> would reliably read&write 84+ tracks >> but the stupid fixed allocation map >> mean't that the extra space cannot be >> used within the file-system! N.> Yeah, well look at DOS format DD disks N.> (PC) - they only hold 720k. And they N.> seem to be loads slower. Ah but CP/M aka prodos on the sam standard is only 706k but it can have 836k free space with 256 files and 32 user areas (well crude directories) and it's as fast as sam native loading and saving and random access is REAL and rapid! rather than emulated&slooow as in MasterDos! PLUS there are NO limits to the number of open files as in virtually ALL other OS's. It's even legal to open a file for read & write in two or more different places if required! I believe that on pc-clones it is possible to use 10 sectors per track and more than 80 tracks! so the maximum size of mgt-dos discs is still less than CP/M and MS-DOS practical maximums:-( >> AFAIK gzip is useless without tar to >> make sam-dos filetypes a generic serial >> file! LHARC could be used to do that >> much simpler and in less space and in one >> process! N.> Umm, I think gzip will work on any N.> file of any kind at all - to gzip it's N.> all just bits and bytes, it doesn't N.> care what it all means. Spot on:-)That's its problem! It is not capable of re-creating the original file characteristics, just the binary contents! Great for featureless bit streams like a tar archive or an opentype file but useless for CODE,DATA,SCREEN$ and BASIC filetypes with all their particular attributes that .gz files have no facility to deal with:-( While LHArc format has, easily:-) >> >> I'm begining to think that a full-blown >> >> banked unix would be MOST useful! >> >> IC> No it wouldn't. The Sam is slow >> IC> enough as it is, and besides a "proper" >> IC> Unix requires a hardware memory >> IC> management unit. Unix also requires a >> IC> large mass storage device. >> >> 1) If you're after high speed to >> compete with 66MHz DX2 then a z80 is always >> going to disapoint! >> 2) There's nothing non-unix about total >> swapping to a swap-files on a >> ram-drive. >> 3) My Sam has 4Meg external Ram fitted >> and functioning! So even without my >> IDE-HD interface and drive I'd still >> have plenty of space for unix to run in! N.> Not so sure about 4M being plenty of N.> space. It's true that Z80 programs take N.> ludicrously small amounts of memory to N.> store, but check out something like N.> Linux (a PC port of UNIX) which N.> (afaik) only really becomes usable when N.> you've got about 8M. On a clone I assume linux does quite a bit of swapping, including windowed interface that swaps video memory about to restore background windows, plus if I'm not mistaken 99% of linux apps are compiled and hence each task is inherantly large, requiring lots of memory to be able context switch at any decent speed so the tasks can be kept resident rather than using a hd based swap-file. Assuming I don't do a windowed interface... and use total swapping to the Ram-drive and don't use it for anyhting else! I'd expect each swap-file would be aprx 60k which I reckon would allow quite a few out-of context or suspended/sleeping tasks.... Swap files will never be greater than the entire task workspace which is retricted to the 16bit z80 address space less the resident portion of the kernal:-) BTW I try not to look to IBM-Clones for examples of how to do somthing right because invariably it ain't done right when its done on a clone! I prefer generic unix C for examples of how to do things, it's usually much more portable:) Cheers for the more realistic comments:-) Regards. Johnathan. ___ Olms 1.60 [Evaluation] -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 1 07:10:55 1994 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 29 Oct 94 21:18:00 +0000 Subject: @2:2501/102 Message-Id: <973_9410311918@centron.com> Organization: Centronics BBS To: Sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 10076 Lines: 231 Subject: Re: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... In a message to Johnathan Taylor <28 Oct 94 15:06> Ian.Collier@Comlab.Ox.Ac.Uk wrote: Ia> Ia> Apparently-to: jet Ia> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 14:06:07 +0100 Ia> From: Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk Ia> On 27 Oct 94 04:59:00 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: >> Subject: Re: Bob's amazing hard-drive plans... Ia> Just a small point... could you tell Ia> your software to put this line in the Ia> header instead of in the body of your message? That is a bug in the OLR mail door installed on my host system, it's beyond both my and the sys adminins control and apparently random on weither it gets included or not, If you want to discuss that problem further best go to email:-) >> Most other serious operating systems >> are disc based, even if the larger memory >> models use a substantial disc-buffer in >> ram to reduce drive accesses in a >> multi-tasking enviroment! Ia> Most other serious operating systems Ia> assume that you have a large rapid- Ia> access disk drive and a CPU which has Ia> MMU and basic multitasking facilities Ia> (note: MSDOS does not qualify as a Ia> "serious" operating system). Can't get more rapid than a 4Meg ramdrive! Since when is an 80x86 cpu designed for multi-tasking? AFAIK only transputers are inherintly designed to multi-task all the rest just have glue logic added on chip like mmu's etc. How many clock cycles does it take an 80486 running linux, NT, or a real AT&T unix to do a complete context switch? LOADS! T225 @ 25MHz can do it in 800nS! >> AFAIK gzip is useless without tar to >> make sam-dos filetypes a generic serial >> file! Ia> Not at all. Most things that get Ia> compressed are code files and they don't Ia> come with any particular information Ia> that you need in order to run them Ia> (they have a start address, but it Ia> isn't strictly necessary. Some existing Ia> compressors such as powercrunch (which Ia> isn't that powerful at all) make you Ia> specify the starting address for Ia> obvious reasons. In any case, the gzip Ia> header might well be able to contain Ia> the filetype information. You reckon? IF I were to want an archiver for Sam-native files I'd want it to retain date-stamp, type, start address, load-page, true length, plus directory info too like auto-run address and the various protection flags. Plus I'd want to be able combine assosiated files into a single archive not a seperate lose-able bunch of seperatly compressed files! To my knowlegde gzip compression is just a binary stream compressor much like the CP/M CRUNCH single file compressors... The only serious use I've seen it put to is to compress tar archives in file repositries, and recently used to compress packed newsgroup bundles for uucp/slip xfers. >>LHARC could be used to do that >> much simpler and in less space and in one process! Ia> I don't know what LHARC is. Why is LHarc format is a generic PD archive envelope definition that is supported from CP/M, BBC-B, IBM-CLONE, QL, and generic unix! even the humble speccy now has a LHARC faker that was used to store qwk reply packets so a BBS qwk door could digest it! It includes in its definition a variable lebgth area set aside to contain OS dependant data that wont be used to read the data on other platforms, there's upto almost 200bytes space for operating system specific data in each archived files header! More than enough to hold ALL sam-specific data. .LHA and .LZH files are examples of the LHArc archive. And the C source is freely available if you bothered to look! Ia> there such a large variety of file Ia> formats around (lbr, arc/ark, lha, Ia> hqx, zip, zoo, lzh, several forms Ia> of lzw, tar, ...)? It seems that every Ia> time someone wants to archive Ia> something they invent a new format for Ia> it instead of using one of the Ia> commonly available ones. Anyway, the The reason is simple, copyright restrictions and ego:-( Ia> compression rate of ".tar.gz" is Ia> hard to beat, so if you want to make Ia> everyone use lharc you'd better be Ia> sure of what you are doing... NO LHarc method beats the ZIP deflate alogarithm on achieved ratios. BUT they ALL require much LESS working ram space to compress and de-compress and the last 2 main methods -lh1- & -lh5- do produce respectable rates of compression, maybe 3 - 5% behind deflated files... -lh1- can decompress in less than 32k ram including tables! >> Obviously the multi-task facility would >> be functional but NOT for general use. >> It'd normally only get used if say a >> remote user was logged in and the >> operator (me) needed to do somthing important! Ia> A remote user logged in to a Sam? Get real! I have a BBS that runs on my SAM that works quite well and has had callers logged in when I had it online! The only reason I didn't keep it going is that I only have one SAM and it doesn't multi-task and no HD meant it was very difficult to maintain my normal mail activities and keep the BBS going, obviously:-( >> otherwise it'd be only running >> a single task but using the unix parent/child processing to >> seriously simplify the linking of programs actions to make >> a powerful if not blindingly fast system:-) Ia> You can't make a useable Unix process Ia> hierarchy on a Sam. It hasn't got Ia> basic memory allocation facilities. Says you eh? Obviously you think unix is ONLY the variety of system that is available today... UNIX doesn't HAVE to have an MMU! Virtual memory is NOT a basic requisit of a UNIX system, maybe it has become one for modern inefficient programmers! Because you cannot conceive of how it can be done, doesn't mean that it cannot be done by someone with a tad more inginuity and persistance eg. me or anyone else that wants it bad enough to learn how rather than cop-out and say *you can't do that!* unix with virtual-memory has been done on a twin 68000 without an integral MMU or the ability to interupt the cpu mid instruction! On that system it was done by an external MMU and the twin cpu's operating one instruction behind the other! Then IF an access violation ocoured the first cpu would be halted and the second one interupted prior to executing the instruction that caused the violation. The the violation was then dealt with by the trailing interupted cpu and the leading cpu is reset to the condition prior to the violation from the trailing cpu and then execution continues... There are MANY ways around technical problems and if all else fails certain comprimises/cheats can be made;-) Ia> Sure, if all your programs are below Ia> 32K then you can page them in and out Ia> without too much trouble. But how Ia> are you going to run programs which Ia> are over 32K? There's no way you can Ia> prevent one process from reading or Ia> scribbling over another process's memory Ia> and/or screwing up the entire system. Ever heard of total swapping? In such a system the entire task allocation is swapped to a fast HD or preferably a RAM-DRIVE obviously time for a context switch is increased quite a bit, so the time between context switches is increased acordingly... The user interface to the tasks can be interupt driven to individually allocated NON-swaped ram-buffers so I/O to a given task can continue even after the actual task is out of context which will smooth out the proccessing considerably! Or combined bank swaping of bottom 32k + file swapping of top 25 to 30k! Try 3D thinking, it's much more rewarding than 2D thinking! Ia> Sorry, but if I want a useable Unix Ia> system I'll buy a 486 or a 68040... If I wanted a real FULL-featured Unix and I had the cash I certainly wouldn't buy a 486! 68060 maybe but I'd prefer a DEC ALPHA or an array of T9000's! BUT THAT'S _NOT_ WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT! This is not the unix-users list it's for the sam-users and realisng its inherant limits and working around them a USEABLE if not full-featured unix system IS possible! GET and read the contents of /pub/cpm/uzi/ on oak.oakland.edu and you'll see a *crude but functional* PD unix kernal and filesystem that works on a 64k z80 machine NO MMU, NO banked ram, NO AT&T code! That teaches the *principles* but is by no means the end product. Which because of the sams strengths will be A LOT better than UZI! I dunno this UNIX on a SAM part of this thread smacks of those readers letters in format where a READER says that somthing should be done for the SAM and Bob then goes on to trash the feasable request as invalid or stupid.... eg HD's, Archivers, COMMS etc etc... Or when I suggested that Interupt driven RS232 is possible on the sam everyone I spoke to in the SAM scene said it couldn't be done! Now I've been using it RELIABLY for over a year daily! ALL my OWN work! Hmmm has Bob joined this group using Ians FQDN as an alias? Ian just WHAT do you use (or want to use) your sam for? Do you program in machine-code at the lowest level on the sam? Have you seen and understood unix C source enough to port it to the SAM under any of the current operating systems? Have you seen the source and understood the functions&requirments of a minimal UNIX system? If no then to at least 2 out of 3 of those last questions then please stop saying that it can't be done as your not qualified to judge its viability, sorry. To be honest when I do eventually write any multi-tasking operating systems for MY sam (either unix based or a cp/m+ extension), it'll be for my needs not yours and as I've said before I doubt it'll ever be run on anyone elses SAM mainly because, currently NO other sam can run everything mine can due to lack of data-bus buffering, I don't do user manuals and it'll require more inteligence than the average home-computer user to use it as with any non-gui unix system! CYL. Johnathan. ___ Olms 1.60 [Evaluation] -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.