From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 1 10:25:49 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 10:26:33 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3452 Lines: 76 Hi guys... more on the Gloucester show later if I can be bothered (and the strange colour that Bob's face turned when Nev showed him the Entropy Hard Drive...), but for now, the verdict (so far) on SAM C. It IS small C, but it does have structures, etc etc. In fact, there's only a couple of things that it's missing: FILE handling (ARGHHHH!!!!) other than through streams, floating point types long integer types sizeof() expression is missing It only assembles in the range 0-64k (and that's if you want to risk using the full 64k... usually, you're limited to 32k). But these things can be written around (though the only way I can think of including floating point stuff is to typedef it, and then add a new maths library, which will have to include stuff like fadd(a,b) to add two floats together, faddi(a,b) to add a float to an int... etc etc etc..) Not nice. BUT, having said this, don't let me deter you from going out and getting a copy. If you can put up with the editor (which is SLOOOOOWWWWWWWW, without a keyboard buffer, and clicks at every keypress. Oh, and on my copy I can't change the colour from the default lime-green on black). The worst bit is that it can't keep up with my typing speed, but you can import msdos style (CR+LF line terminator) ASCII files if you want to use a different editor. It also outputs assembler source in COMET format, or in machine code executables if you want them. It crashed a few times in odd ways too (but not during test compiles). Like, doing things like DIRECTORY from the file menu would sometimes cause it to bomb out with a BASIC error message of 125: e,m . Seems like it's corrupting chunks of BASIC to me, which for a compiler is nasty. (Then again, RUMSOFT's archiver did this as well,and it CAN be worked around. After a while, it stopped doing it, but I *was* just using keypresses for menu options. Oh, and the mouse pointer is very sluggish). THe other nasty thing is that on the disc, you're given an AUTO file which is thus: 10 LOAD "cc" Fair enough. But when I rewrote that file to be: 10 POKE DVAR 0,0 : MODE 3: CSIZE 6,8: CLS #: LOAD "cc" It would reset when I loaded up the program. Even with a cold boot, it reset. NOT GOOD. So now I have masterdos on my backup copy, with an auto file of: 10 POKE DVAR 0,0: LOAD "cc" And it survives, as long as I cold boot it. THe most worrying omission from the C (and yep, again I'll say it, it IS SMALL C -- it says so on the RUMSOFT loading screen even), is the file handling. I thought I'd have ZIP up and running in no time (barring the fact that it uses LONG ints in the source I have). No dice I'm afraid. This is (I assume) because files can be a pain to access through the hook codes (well, for some people anyway), and also because for a file length to be stored, you pretty much need long ints, unless you're willing to mess around. Still, I may use it to write some clipping code and some 3d stuff... you never know. I'm going to look into porting GNU C, but that'll be in a year or so yet. So if you want a C and fancy writing a few libraries, get to it! Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 1 10:48:50 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505010946.AA23322@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 1 May 95 10:46:52 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Simon Cooke" at May 1, 95 10:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 283 Lines: 9 Bob Brenchley's face colour? I thought he was keen for a hard drive... Oh, but not by you. I see! Stop messing about with C and program in good old SAM BASIC. Even the most fast 32 pixel sinewave scrollers can be coded in just a few lines. And only 6.5 T states per bit. Not. -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 1 11:59:37 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <19020.9505011055@turner.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 11:55:52 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 1, 95 10:26:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1163 Lines: 29 To Quote Simon Cooke : > a copy. If you can put up with the editor (which is SLOOOOOWWWWWWWW, > without a keyboard buffer, and clicks at every keypress. Oh, and on my > copy I can't change the colour from the default lime-green on black). The > worst bit is that it can't keep up with my typing speed, but you can > import msdos style (CR+LF line terminator) ASCII files if you want to use > a different editor. Hate to be horrid, but I agree with this point, it gets every third letter or so once I get going, not fun :-(, I have a BASIC editor which runs faster. Some of the librarys seem a tad strange too. For example you don't get gotoxy() in CONIO.H but you get at() in STDIO.H which is exactly the same :) The only other minor point I've disliked so far, is the fact that the files are stored with spaces before the tag, ie "STDIO .H" rather that "STDIO.H" and therefore you have to type the spaces yourself, something I keep forgetting about :-(. Other than that though, after an afternoon playing about with it, I thought it was rather nice. So buy a copy. Tim ....@/ -- Tim Paveley Maths with Computer Science University of Southampton From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 1 12:30:05 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 12:30:28 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <19020.9505011055@turner.ecs.soton.ac.uk> from "Tim Paveley" at May 1, 95 11:55:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 981 Lines: 19 > The only other minor point I've disliked so far, is the fact that the files > are stored with spaces before the tag, ie "STDIO .H" rather that "STDIO.H" > and therefore you have to type the spaces yourself, something I keep > forgetting about :-(. As long as it uses the actual DOS to do any file access, rather than using its own home-grown sector readers, EDOS will get around that problem. (It allows any number of spaces, including none, between the end of the filename, and the extension)... But then, will it crash it you put EDOS in? I'd imagine it wouldn't, but then EDOS will use 2 pages (but one in external memory if you have it). Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 1 13:36:28 1995 From: David Zambonini To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 13:34:45 GMT Subject: Re: SAM C Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <76640406BA@physx1s.cf.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 603 Lines: 18 > Bob Brenchley's face colour? I thought he was keen for a hard drive... > Oh, but not by you. I see! I noticed the battle of the hard drives... and unlike the usual 16 colours Bob obviously had 16.7 million different face colours... and all of them shades of red.. or was it green? :) > Stop messing about with C and program in good old SAM BASIC. > Even the most fast 32 pixel sinewave scrollers can be > coded in just a few lines. And only 6.5 T states per bit. Not. Indeed. A 128 pixel sinewave scrolly in 1 line of BASIC that executes in under 1T-state per double byte... simple. DMZ === From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 1 14:55:20 1995 From: goringgn Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 14:47:00 +0100 Message-Id: <22159.9505011347@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 359 Lines: 7 My mate, James "FLA" Curry, bought a copy of SAM C at the show and noticed that if you add a number to a variable, or a variable to a variable, then it crashes during the C>ASSEMBLY compilation stage, funnily enough though, this only happened when he was optimizing for size (the default option) but if he optimized for speed it worked fine, odd huh? Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 1 15:41:57 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 15:24:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: goringgn -- "Re: SAM C" (May 1, 2:47pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 499 Lines: 13 On May 1, 2:47pm in "Re: SAM C", you warbled: ] My mate, James "FLA" Curry, bought a copy of SAM C at the show and noticed that ] if you add a number to a variable, or a variable to a variable, then it crashes ] during the C>ASSEMBLY compilation stage, funnily enough though, this only ] happened when he was optimizing for size (the default option) but if he ] optimized for speed it worked fine, odd huh? ] ] Graham I think I'll stick with coding... sounds like I'd get less crashes :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 08:48:48 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: HITECH C for CPM? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 23:19:31 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 594 Lines: 16 Hi all.. Anyone able to get me a working copy of HITECH C for the CPM OS? I've tried oak.oakland.edu, but the second file seems to be corrupted. Thanks.... (no prizes for working out what I'm doing...I think it'll just be a matter of rewriting the libraries...) Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 10:39:50 1995 From: David Zambonini To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 10:23:57 GMT Subject: Helloee? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <8B38D671F9@physx1s.cf.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 259 Lines: 8 Hmmm.. rather quiet on the SAM front after Gloucester, isn't it..? :) So are you going to compile a slightly better version of C written in C, which you'll use to compile a slightly better version of C written in C which.. etc. , then, Cookie? :) DMZ === From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 10:58:47 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 10:48:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: SPX3DMZ -- "Helloee?" (May 2, 10:23am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Helloee? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 462 Lines: 16 On May 2, 10:23am in "Helloee?", you warbled: ] Hmmm.. rather quiet on the SAM front after Gloucester, isn't it..? :) ] ] So are you going to compile a slightly better version of C written in ] C, which you'll use to compile a slightly better version of C written ] in C which.. etc. , then, Cookie? :) I don't know about `etc'... I always felt it wasn't worth self-compiling past the second time: the code produced is bound to be the same. Cheers Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 12:11:43 1995 Message-Id: <19689.9505021042@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Helloee? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 11:42:42 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 2, 95 10:48:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 617 Lines: 17 > DMZ said: > ] So are you going to compile a slightly better version of C written in > ] C, which you'll use to compile a slightly better version of C written > ] in C which.. etc. , then, Cookie? :) Geoff said: > I always felt it wasn't worth self-compiling past the second time: the code > produced is bound to be the same. I think he is proposing adding functionality (floats, compatibility) at each iteration, not just self-compiling. I suspect it would take quite a few iterations to port "gcc" though. If only I had the spare time. Has anybody ever cross-compiled for the Sam on another platform? / From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: Helloee? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 11:58:25 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 2, 95 10:48:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 819 Lines: 18 > ] So are you going to compile a slightly better version of C written in > ] C, which you'll use to compile a slightly better version of C written > ] in C which.. etc. , then, Cookie? :) Erm... well, if I can get my hands on a fully working version of Hitechc, all I should need to do for the moment is change the libraries. Then, when I've not got so many exams looming over my head, I can look at writing a new Linker for it, which will take into account the SAM's paging system. Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 15:44:00 1995 Message-Id: <17832.199505021200@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 13:00:05 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 1, 95 10:26:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 318 Lines: 10 > > Hi guys... more on the Gloucester show later if I can be bothered (and > the strange colour that Bob's face turned when Nev showed him the Entropy > Hard Drive...), but for now, the verdict (so far) on SAM C. He was impressed, then? Probably not best chuffed with having his monopoly destroyed... Will Easson From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 16:12:32 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 16:05:46 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <17832.199505021200@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> from "William Easson" at May 2, 95 01:00:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 906 Lines: 23 > > > > Hi guys... more on the Gloucester show later if I can be bothered (and > > the strange colour that Bob's face turned when Nev showed him the Entropy > > Hard Drive...), but for now, the verdict (so far) on SAM C. > > He was impressed, then? > > Probably not best chuffed with having his monopoly destroyed... Yeah... Nev showed him what I was up to, I demonstrated the directory in action (with all of its 20 characters per filename), and he turned a deep purple colour momentarily, turned to Nev, and said "You'd better get a move on then". Ah, sheer bliss :) Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 16:15:59 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 16:06:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: 9264201e -- "Re: SAM C" (May 2, 1:00pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 263 Lines: 12 On May 2, 1:00pm in "Re: SAM C", you warbled: ] Probably not best chuffed with having his monopoly destroyed... Well... I always think putting it away in its box is a better way, but some people will end the game that way... Bad losers, I guess... :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 19:06:59 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505021738.AA27561@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 2 May 95 18:38:58 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Mars Bar" at May 2, 95 4:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 309 Lines: 13 > > On May 2, 1:00pm in "Re: SAM C", you warbled: > ] Probably not best chuffed with having his monopoly destroyed... > > He's got nothing to whinge about: he's the one who's done alright... he's done alright from Bruce & Alan's misfortune. Remember the original SAM Gamestar? whose idea was that?!!! From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 2 23:25:17 1995 Message-Id: <10212.199505021549@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 16:49:50 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 2, 95 04:06:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 26 > > On May 2, 1:00pm in "Re: SAM C", you warbled: > ] Probably not best chuffed with having his monopoly destroyed... > > Well... I always think putting it away in its box is a better > way, but some people will end the game that way... > > Bad losers, I guess... > > :) > > Geoff > > R.O.F.L. -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 3 00:52:15 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 00:51:16 +0100 Message-Id: <7378.9505022351@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: The Show Report X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 252 Lines: 7 If you want to check out my show report, then it's in my SAM pages on my Web Page. If Tim is willing to leave in the expletives then a copy will probably appear on his SAM site soon. http://www.aston.ac.uk/~goringgn/ Graham - Read it and be offended From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 3 10:31:21 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505030928.AA06292@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 11:28:56 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 2, 95 04:05:46 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 426 Lines: 15 > Yeah... Nev showed him what I was up to, I demonstrated the directory in > action (with all of its 20 characters per filename), and he turned a deep > purple colour momentarily, turned to Nev, and said "You'd better get a > move on then". There will be two??????? Stooopid! > Simon -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 3 13:22:01 1995 Message-Id: <744.199505031108@rockall.cent.gla.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 12:08:43 +0100 X-Sender: 9264201e@pop-server.cent.gla.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk (Strongbow ) Subject: Re: SAM C X-Mailer: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 859 Lines: 23 >> Yeah... Nev showed him what I was up to, I demonstrated the directory in >> action (with all of its 20 characters per filename), and he turned a deep >> purple colour momentarily, turned to Nev, and said "You'd better get a >> move on then". > >There will be two??????? Stooopid! > Indeed. The two will only split the market, so each will get half the cusotmers they would in the first place, unless one is really superior to the other. Will Easson 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk "A life spent making mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing." G.B. Shaw "Intelligence is not the ability to make no mistakes, but to see how to make them good." "Not living is the sin... never ever regret the things you have done; only the things you haven't" S. Fry I have a web page which currently resides at... http://www.gla.ac.uk/Clubs/GUVZS/guvzs.html From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 3 16:58:55 1995 From: mcscs3cgm@vaxd.dct.ac.uk Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 16:36:03 GMT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <0098FCFC.722A09D4.128@vaxd.dct.ac.uk> Subject: RE: SAM C Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 335 Lines: 12 Yes, there are problems with it at the moment. But on the whole, everyone seems very pleased with it. As I mentioned, once things are running better, I'll see about providing a free upgrade. If anyone wants to provide any of the updates to the libraries for this, please do. Let me know what other problems you come across. Colin From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 07:44:22 1995 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 04 May 95 00:02:28 +0000 Subject: SAM C Message-Id: Organization: CC-NET BBS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1574 Lines: 40 On (03 May 95) frodet@www1.cern.ch wrote to Si... > From: Frode Tenneboe > Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 11:28:56 +0200 (MET DST) SC>> Yeah... Nev showed him what I was up to, I demonstrated the directory in SC>> action (with all of its 20 characters per filename), and he turned a deep SC>> purple colour momentarily, turned to Nev, and said "You'd better get a SC>> move on then". FT> There will be two??????? Stooopid! Make that three including the Generic z80 IDE interface which is going into comercial production within the month and should be shipping the first orders within 2 months... Note this is designed to be used on the many z80/180 CP/M alike machines as the bdos has builtin expandability and it also incorperates an optional RTC chip that is an descendant of the Sam's RTC that's no longer available.... It's not a sam-coupe specific design but works on sams just fine. No need to check DRQ between reads with this interface;-) I have a working prototype of the Non-RTC version here attached to a 540Meg Conner, still deciding which file-system is going to be written first... I'm going to do a full CP/M3 bios but for the moment I may do a shell-type executable that'll run under ProDos to allow files to be archived in a unix style filesystem partition using the UZI-UTILS C source from oak.oakland.edu /pub/cpm/uzi/... Johnathan. ... I/O I/O IT'S WRITE TO DISK I GO ... -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307.9 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 11:12:33 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Thu, 4 May 95 11:09:53 BST Message-Id: <27585.9505041009@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 645 Lines: 13 > Yeah, but would you prefer me to let us all use Nev's DOS with the CAT > syntax and LOAD d1"jdaoijd" whatever? Urgh! begone nasty dos, back to the speccies! Colin P. __________________ __ ____ ___ ______________________ |Colin G Piggot | /| | | | | / | | |\ |(C) Colin G. Piggot | |cgp@st-and.ac.uk | / | | | |__| / |___| | \ |----------------------| | | / | | | | | / | | |__\ |*16* BIT SOUND STRIKES| |Presents The ... | / \ | |__| | | /___ | | | \ |THE SAM - HEARING IS | |_________________| /___\|=======SURROUND=======| \ |____________BELIEVING_| From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 11:14:25 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:08:55 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <744.199505031108@rockall.cent.gla.ac.uk> from "Strongbow" at May 3, 95 12:08:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1165 Lines: 24 > Indeed. The two will only split the market, so each will get half the > cusotmers they would in the first place, unless one is really superior to > the other. Yeah, but would you prefer me to let us all use Nev's DOS with the CAT syntax and LOAD d1"jdaoijd" whatever? Also, you've got to remember that I'm doing EDOS as a labour of love. It'll work on the other hard drive, but it won't use the same system -- the EDOS one will use the partition table details (soon to be updated) that were published here. Nev's DOS however will be a single-partition system, where other OS's have to allocate a file in his partition and do all of their low-level sector access via Nev's DOS. Which could be VERY slow. Besides... I think mine will be better. And it was definitely in more of a state of readiness than Nev's at the show :) Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 11:18:54 1995 Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 10:49:55 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8177@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Show Report X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 113 Lines: 9 So what about a way to get the report that does not involve WWW access? Thanks Brian -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 11:27:39 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:10:22 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Johnathan Taylor" at May 4, 95 00:02:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 849 Lines: 20 > On (03 May 95) frodet@www1.cern.ch wrote to Si... > > > From: Frode Tenneboe > > Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 11:28:56 +0200 (MET DST) > > No need to check DRQ between reads with this interface;-) > I have a working prototype of the Non-RTC version here attached to a 540Meg > Conner, still deciding which file-system is going to be written first... Actually, there shouldn't be a need for DRQ's in the finished one we put out, but at the moment there is. I think it's a problem with pull-ups. :) Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 11:36:33 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:35:22 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 440 Lines: 11 If anyone wants to look at a sam coupe logo, take a peek at this: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc/sambase.html Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 11:39:46 1995 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 May 95 11:38 BST From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Within-Url: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~goringgn/showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: showreport.html Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 7852 Lines: 132 THE SHOW REPORT - BY GRAHAM GORING Welcome to a slightly surrealistic report on the recent (29th April) SAM and Spectrum show. The day started at 5am, with me going to bed after having finished something for Colin Macdonald (which wasn't bloody needed as it happens). I got about 2.5 hours of sleep before I was awoken by a cup of tea. This was pretty stunning as cup's of tea aren't very loud, and can only really wake you by pouring themselves over your groin. A nice bacony breakfast, and a quick session of back-up the bloody disk, and we were off! A stunning 45 minutes late (stunning, because I was expecting something in the region of 2 hours late). I must say it was very well attended, and I had a really great time, despite buying a lot of trash, and spending most of my time wandering around like a positionally challenge tourist. The best aspect of it was buying my own assemblers, and getting some new PD, including Martijn Groen's *excellent* new demo, Perpetual Sounds. 336 tracks of 128k music. I am in heaven... I also got Stefan 'Solar Flare' Drissen's PD disk from Derek 'Ow! A car ran over my foot' Morgan's stand. It was pretty good, but I spent most of my time trying to get into the Leisure Suit Larry demo-thingy, only to discover a gaping lack of hard-core pornography. Darn. I also managed to look at all the demos that the coders were working on at that moment, and I was quite impressed with David Zambonini's sine-wave one. Andrew Collier's would have probably been nicer had it worked, but that's life, as they say. Cookie showed me most of what Statues Of Ice was not made of, and a rather nice intro to Sandman's Shadow, a point and click adventure, which is probably about 1 eon away from release. Okay then, new products from the show... Amalthea - Jupiter software's rather spanky new game, half of it is Gauntletesque and half is side on, a bit Exoloney. The graphics were drawn by the annoyingly talented Steve Pick (for the side-on bits) and the slightly crappy (sorry) Steve Ekins. Fortunatly, it has made the most of SCADS and looks very professional, it even includes lots of lovely samples that can be played if you have the Quazar Surround system (see later). Also from the Jupiter boys, was, I a hate to say it. An incredibly lame looking attempt at Super BomberMan in SCADS. Only 2.50, but it seems an expensive way of buying blank disks. :) SAM C - Everyone has heard of it, a combo between Small C and full C on the SAM, good news for everyone but me, as I hate structured programming. Ack! Still, it executes quite fast, and is aimed at the 'Quite good at BASIC, but shit at code' market, or even those who can code, but want an easier way of doing all those nasty calculations at a decent speed. Should do well. Joystick Power - Zeddsoft's release of a joystick waggler, in the purist sense. Sod the sports side, just have a picture of a stick waggling. Programmed by Wayne Coles (see later) it's only good if you have some mates round your house (providing you don't get too embarrassed about owning a SAM, or all coy about asking if they want to waggle your stick). Quazar Surround - Colin Piggot's splendid 16/8 bit sound system. Very impressive, and priced at a very reasonable 62 quid. I am thinking of getting it myself. Comes with software and code routines to make it easy to use in your own programs (BASIC or code). SAMDac - The only competition for Colin's Quazar (excluding making your own from FRED, and dying of either massive burns or lead poisoning in the process) was this 8 bit MOD player. Priced at 25 quid it was tempting, but my money stayed resolutley in my pockets. SAM MOD Player - Stefan Drissen's new MOD player, at a fiver, it's a steal, since it supports all the new formats (Dac, EdDac, SAMDac, Quazar etc) and even gives better performance (at 40 centigrade?) from the normal chip. Well, I think so. Stuff in progress... Well, Cookie had a working Hard-Drive at the show, Steve Pick (Atomik Software) had several things in progress, such as Grubbing For Gold, a scarily authentic take-off of the AWFUL game-show. And the SAM encyclodaedia, a frightening task at the best of times, but it looks nice, and I get a mention, so I'm happy. :) I also saw the graphics by Steve Pick for the up and coming (in 6 months or so) Almathea 2 - The New Strain, and if the gameplay is tweaked, and these graphics used, then it should be absolutley stonking. Wayne Coles's Sprite package was almost finished for the show, but not quite, I partly blame myself. Christ knows why. It looks very nice, but with the limiting effect of only 16x16 or 8x8 sprites, it could be bashed. I'll be buying it though, as 16x16 is the only size I work in. :) Of course, there's always the countless things that will either take 2 years to finish or never be seen again to take into consideration, but I ignore these. In fact I snub them, SNUB! SNUB! The people, an 'all-star' (what the f***?) turn out was nice, with all the regular stalls there (apart from one which stayed empty the whole day) including Format, SC_Software, Jupiter, Zedd-soft, Pheonix, Revelation and of course FRED, behind which stood Colin MacDonald (contravening some law or at least one act of the geneva convention by wearing a kilt in a public place), Colin Anderton (the new Ed of FRED, and an oily little gob-shite to boot (plus a good friend, damn!)), somebody I am afraid I didn't recognise, and who probably didn't even own a SAM, and Peter Moore, looking like a ten foot tall bog-brush with halitosis (another friend). Other bods were, Bob Brenchly (looking like Willy Rushton), Simon Cooke (having put his hair in a pony-tail, ack! Yuppy!), Stefan Drissen (wearing a starred shirt and reinforcing my suspicion that he is in fact an australian-american), Martijn Groen (not speaking much english, but being only too happy to show everyone his highly illegal 128k conversions. Must get some... :) ), Matt Round (Who I never met, arse!), Terry and (June?) Steven Ekins (Jupiter software, looking less and less like brothers with every show), Lee Willis (who was being far too enthusiastic about everything, and even didn't get drunk at the pub! Sacrilage!), Tim Paveley (showing off the lovely EGGBuM, and complaining bitterly about my forgetting to buy him the cheapo plastic hat), Andrew Collier (showing his nice Mines game with options and samples a-plenty, then walking round the show, seemingly attached to...), David Zambonini (being tall, and generally leathery, but nice (even though he HATES speccy 128k tunes, grrr!) and being followed round by Andrew Collier), Michael Stocks (Zodiac PD etc, generally being too enthusiastic too. But he's young, just wait till he sees how shitty the REAL world is...), David Ledbury (saying hello to everyone and equiring about all the tasks he asked us to do, but we were all too busy to actually start on), Steven Pick (being bloody talented, the sod! Grrrrr! :) ), Derek Morgan (being battered and abused, and selling lotsa new PD), Dave Tonks (selling more of the games that he produces by the minute), Arnt (hey hey! Nice to see you at last!) and lots of other people that I have just offended by leaving out. So it had a high percentage of 'well-knowns' as you can see. And apart from me having a thoroughly, criminally, pervertedly good time, that's all I have to say. Graham Goring - 00.41am - 3rd May - 1995 From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 11:55:30 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: The Show Report Date: Thu, 04 May 95 11:32:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FA91DDB@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 17 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 218 Lines: 17 > So what about a way to get the report that does not involve WWW > access? Esp. as I can't get any response from your server :( Could you mail it us? Dan Doore > Thanks > > Brian > > -- > Brian Gaff Sam Dept. > From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 13:43:53 1995 Message-Id: <20812.199505041150@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 12:50:46 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 4, 95 11:35:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 621 Lines: 17 > > If anyone wants to look at a sam coupe logo, take a peek at this: > > http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc/sambase.html The right hand bit of the M in SAM needs to be parallel with the side of the triangle, to be perfect, but I'll bet it took a lot of time to do! -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 14:10:13 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 14:07:53 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <20812.199505041150@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> from "William Easson" at May 4, 95 12:50:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 740 Lines: 16 > The right hand bit of the M in SAM needs to be parallel with the side of > the triangle, to be perfect, but I'll bet it took a lot of time to do! Yeah... the problem was that I couldn't get it looking convincing enough with the correctly-slanting M and A, so instead I decided if west Coast (aka BOB) can change the logo, so can I :) Oh yes, has the news that West Coast no longer exists been on here yet? Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 14:53:52 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 14:32:32 +0100 Message-Id: <13494.9505041332@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: showreport.html X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 72 Lines: 5 Thanks for saving me the work, simon. Any1 offended? No, good. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 14:54:52 1995 From: eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 14:37:58 +0100 Message-Id: <6382.199505041337@csgi21.scs.leeds.ac.uk> To: sam-users%nvg.unit.no@gps.leeds.ac.uk Subject: Mail probs X-Mailer: [XMailTool v3.1.0] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 320 Lines: 13 Hi! >From Sunday to yesterday the mail server here at Leeds uni has had major problems (I lost lots of mail and was unable to send any) so if anyone did send me something (or if there was some public mail which could be of interest for me) please remail it! Thanks and sorry for the OT. Arne eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 14:59:41 1995 From: eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 14:32:27 +0100 Message-Id: <6370.199505041332@csgi21.scs.leeds.ac.uk> To: sam-users%nvg.unit.no@gps.leeds.ac.uk Subject: Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :) X-Mailer: [XMailTool v3.1.0] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 444 Lines: 14 --------- Received message begins Here --------- > Yeah... the problem was that I couldn't get it looking convincing enough > with the correctly-slanting M and A, so instead I decided if west Coast > (aka BOB) can change the logo, so can I :) > > Oh yes, has the news that West Coast no longer exists been on here yet? > > Simon > What do ya mean?! In which way does west coast no longer exist? (btw did it ever exist??!! ;-)) ) Arne From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 15:03:05 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 14:23:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: simonc -- "Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :)" (May 4, 2:07pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 552 Lines: 16 On May 4, 2:07pm in "Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :)", you warbled: ] > The right hand bit of the M in SAM needs to be parallel with the side of ] > the triangle, to be perfect, but I'll bet it took a lot of time to do! ] ] Yeah... the problem was that I couldn't get it looking convincing enough ] with the correctly-slanting M and A, so instead I decided if west Coast ] (aka BOB) can change the logo, so can I :) ] ] Oh yes, has the news that West Coast no longer exists been on here yet? No. What, where, why? (celebration time...) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 15:39:43 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 15:28:17 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 4, 95 02:23:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 691 Lines: 18 > On May 4, 2:07pm in "Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :)", you warbled: > ] Oh yes, has the news that West Coast no longer exists been on here yet? > > No. What, where, why? Apparently, it was very quietly wrapped up earlier this year. Bob now is, in every sense of the word, West Coast, as the real company is now in the hands of the receivers. Bummer, eh? SImon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 16:16:49 1995 From: David Zambonini To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 14:51:04 GMT Subject: Grahams' show report.... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 104 Lines: 5 What the hell does Graham mean by me looking "leathery"..? just thought I'd like to know... :) DMZ === From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 16:48:31 1995 Message-Id: <10187.199505041416@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM Coupe logo... sort of :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 15:16:46 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 4, 95 02:07:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 503 Lines: 19 > > Oh yes, has the news that West Coast no longer exists been on here yet? > > Simon WWWWWHHHHHHAAAAAATTTTTT!!!!!?????? -sob- not again! -sob -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 16:54:01 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: Grahams' show report.... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 16:48:04 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "David Zambonini" at May 4, 95 02:51:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 294 Lines: 11 > What the hell does Graham mean by me looking "leathery"..? > just thought I'd like to know... :) I /think/ (and I could be wrong) that he's likening you to the backside of a cow :) But seriously.... erm... who knows :) Simon Cooke (Emotionally distraught - please excuse any crap jokes) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 17:01:06 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 16:32:38 +0100 Message-Id: <1203.9505041532@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Grahams' show report.... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 65 Lines: 3 Could it possibly mean, oh, i dunno, wearing leather? Graham :) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 18:05:14 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 17:22:30 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 476 Lines: 14 ANyone else want to write EDOS? I've got major RSI now, so typing is beginning to get very painful.. Even /with/ the SAM's slopey keyboard :) :) :) Si -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 18:07:50 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 18:05:18 +0100 Message-Id: <1370.9505041705@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: I surrender :) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 414 Lines: 18 > > ANyone else want to write EDOS? > > I've got major RSI now, so typing is beginning to get very painful.. > > Even /with/ the SAM's slopey keyboard :) :) :) > > Si Okay then, I know bog-all about code, and I have the attention span of a lemon, but by-buggery I'll have a go. So, what do I have to do? Presumably it's just like typing, only with funny odd words, right? Weeeell, I can do that. :) Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 4 21:45:20 1995 From: David Zambonini To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 21:41:08 GMT Subject: Cow???? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 16 Lines: 4 Cow??? DMZ === From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 06:57:38 1995 Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 06:39:20 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8212@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 432 Lines: 13 The sbag is, Simon, that Bob has the only way to tell users a product exists. If he has some financial arrangement with Nev, then I feel sure he could easily find a way to trash yours and not let it get advertised. Have you offered him a deal? Hmm, that sounds bad, its not meant to, but what I mean here is that we are talking about money, not technology. You can live without one of these... :-) Brian -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 06:57:56 1995 Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 06:50:44 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8213@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: I surrender :) X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 468 Lines: 19 In message Simon Cooke writes: > ANyone else want to write EDOS? > > I've got major RSI now, so typing is beginning to get very painful.. > > Even /with/ the SAM's slopey keyboard :) :) :) > > Si Repetitive SAM Injury? :-) Re West Coast... Actually, supply is actually BETTER since West Coast went. The main snag just now is getting baseplates made. If anyone has cheap sollutions, contact Bob. Brian -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 09:34:51 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 09:25:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: simonc -- "I surrender :)" (May 4, 5:22pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: I surrender :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 577 Lines: 22 On May 4, 5:22pm in "I surrender :)", you warbled: ] ANyone else want to write EDOS? Wellllllll...... ] I've got major RSI now, so typing is beginning to get very painful.. Ulp. Not nice. I got that over the summer just by _temping_... can you believe that? 9 weeks non-stop Ami-Pro at 70WPM and my wrist came up a funny shade of blue. *sigh* ] Even /with/ the SAM's slopey keyboard :) :) :) What, even with the funky-skillo-cool-resting-bit-to-put-your-wrists-on? Seriously... I might be able to give EDOS some time after finals... What needs doing, exactly? Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 10:08:41 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:08:53 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 5, 95 09:25:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1521 Lines: 39 > On May 4, 5:22pm in "I surrender :)", you warbled: > ] I've got major RSI now, so typing is beginning to get very painful.. > > Ulp. Not nice. I got that over the summer just by _temping_... can > you believe that? 9 weeks non-stop Ami-Pro at 70WPM and my wrist came up a > funny shade of blue. *sigh* Ouch. Sounds bad -- I've not reached that stage yet, but when my only real source of income (can you count a grant?) is through journalism... gulp... My little finger is the worst culprit. Bloody thing hurts all the time nearly... > ] Even /with/ the SAM's slopey keyboard :) :) :) > > What, even with the funky-skillo-cool-resting-bit-to-put-your-wrists-on? Yep, even with that. I think it was spending four or five hours a night, non-stop for a week working on EDOS that did it.. > > Seriously... I might be able to give EDOS some time after finals... > > What needs doing, exactly? Wellll... really I was only moaning about not being able to type without wincing, but the MSDOS style stuff could do with looking at. Either that, or RS232 based network code (not that it'd be used... gah..) Don't worry about it - I expect it to be finished by August with any luck... Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 10:11:26 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:11:34 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <8212@bgserv.demon.co.uk> from "Brian Gaff Sam Dept." at May 5, 95 06:39:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1034 Lines: 23 > The sbag is, Simon, that Bob has the only way to tell users a > product exists. If he has some financial arrangement with Nev, > then I feel sure he could easily find a way to trash yours and > not let it get advertised. Have you offered him a deal? For the hard drive interface? Yes -- and he turned it down flat. Martin's uses a couple less chips too... > Hmm, that sounds bad, its not meant to, but what I mean here is > that we are talking about money, not technology. You can live > without one of these... :-) *nods* that's why I do the journalism stuff -- I'm not expecting to make much -- if anything -- out of the stuff I do on the SAM. The market simply isn't anywhere near big enough.. Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 10:32:12 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:27:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: simonc -- "Re: SAM C" (May 5, 10:11am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 453 Lines: 16 On May 5, 10:11am in "Re: SAM C", you warbled: ] *nods* that's why I do the journalism stuff -- I'm not expecting to make ] much -- if anything -- out of the stuff I do on the SAM. The market ] simply isn't anywhere near big enough.. Yep. You won't make anything. My problem is that I'm trying to back up the money I don't make on the Sam by writing for the Acorn Risc-PC. Hmmm. Huge market there, too. Maybe I just make bad choices... :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 10:32:15 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:23:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: simonc -- "Re: I surrender :)" (May 5, 10:08am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: I surrender :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 412 Lines: 14 On May 5, 10:08am in "Re: I surrender :)", you warbled: ] Wellll... really I was only moaning about not being able to type without ] wincing, but the MSDOS style stuff could do with looking at. Either that, *grin* -- is that a dig at me, perchance? ] or RS232 based network code (not that it'd be used... gah..) *hehe* ] Don't worry about it - I expect it to be finished by August with any luck... Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 10:32:45 1995 Date: Fri, 5 May 95 10:31:57 BST From: cmcneil@mcs.dundee.ac.uk (CEO InfiniteLoop) Message-Id: <9505050931.AA25486@pop> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: I surrender :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 202 Lines: 10 If it bothers you.....why not get one of those funky new microsoft keboards? Know the ones? I was thinking about getting one, but i dont type enough to justify it. anyway, just a though. Campbell. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 10:57:25 1995 Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 10:25:48 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8223@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 928 Lines: 27 In message Simon Cooke writes: > > > Hmm, that sounds bad, its not meant to, but what I mean here is > > that we are talking about money, not technology. You can live > > without one of these... :-) > > *nods* that's why I do the journalism stuff -- I'm not expecting to make > much -- if anything -- out of the stuff I do on the SAM. The market > simply isn't anywhere near big enough.. > > Simon > Yes, I have probably just broken even with SAM. Thats why I am not throwing huge sums of money about now. Its been fun, and a good run but you have to be prepared to lose money now unless you are one of the main SAM people. Besidws, I guess I have to think of my future with reducing eyesight in a country where the Government has sold the family silver and still can't afford to pay the disabled a sum they can live on.. (OO political comment even!) Brian -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 11:35:46 1995 From: goringgn Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 11:35:06 +0100 Message-Id: <4894.9505051035@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 900 Lines: 23 > > > > > Hmm, that sounds bad, its not meant to, but what I mean here is > > > that we are talking about money, not technology. You can live > > > without one of these... :-) > > > > *nods* that's why I do the journalism stuff -- I'm not expecting to make > > much -- if anything -- out of the stuff I do on the SAM. The market > > simply isn't anywhere near big enough.. > > > > Simon > > > > Yes, I have probably just broken even with SAM. Thats why I am > not throwing huge sums of money about now. Its been fun, and a > good run but you have to be prepared to lose money now unless > you are one of the main SAM people. > > Besidws, I guess I have to think of my future with reducing > eyesight in a country where the Government has sold the family > silver and still can't afford to pay the disabled a sum they can > live on.. (OO political comment even!) Brian "Ben Elton" Gaff, eh? From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 11:48:25 1995 Message-Id: <9438.199505051034@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 11:34:36 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505050931.AA25486@pop> from "CEO InfiniteLoop" at May 5, 95 10:31:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 786 Lines: 26 > > If it bothers you.....why not get one of those funky new microsoft keboards? > > Know the ones? > > I was thinking about getting one, but i dont type enough to justify it. > > anyway, just a though. > > Campbell. > > The Microsoft keyboards are... a) not compatible with the SAM yet. b) crap. Apparently, one needs to be hunched over the top of one to get the full benefit. Then there's learning to type all over again. -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 11:48:26 1995 Message-Id: <8506.199505051033@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 11:32:52 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 5, 95 10:27:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 631 Lines: 21 > My problem is that I'm trying to back up the money I don't make on the > Sam by writing for the Acorn Risc-PC. > > Hmmm. Huge market there, too. Maybe I just make bad choices... > > :) > > Geoff > No. You make the right choices. Everyone ELSE makes the wrong choices. -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 11:54:00 1995 Message-Id: <10036.199505051036@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Cow???? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 11:36:13 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "David Zambonini" at May 4, 95 09:41:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 389 Lines: 17 > > Cow??? > > DMZ > === > Eh? -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 12:02:53 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 12:01:13 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 5, 95 10:23:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 939 Lines: 23 > On May 5, 10:08am in "Re: I surrender :)", you warbled: > ] Wellll... really I was only moaning about not being able to type without > ] wincing, but the MSDOS style stuff could do with looking at. Either that, > > *grin* -- is that a dig at me, perchance? Nope -- to date, the only thing that beats KEDISK in any sense that's worth mentioning is Stefan's DOSGRAB code... and that won't read ST disks... And then, Stefan's only lets you copy code files across from the PC -- not vice versa > ] or RS232 based network code (not that it'd be used... gah..) > > *hehe* *grins* True, though -- isn't it. Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 12:05:03 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 12:02:40 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505050931.AA25486@pop> from "CEO InfiniteLoop" at May 5, 95 10:31:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 887 Lines: 23 > If it bothers you.....why not get one of those funky new microsoft keboards? > > Know the ones? You mean the ones shaped like a lazy S which make sure that you can't put your hands on the wrong keys? > I was thinking about getting one, but i dont type enough to justify it. > > anyway, just a though. > > Campbell. Yeah -- the problem being connecting it up to the SAM in the end.. I think one solution might be to get one for my PC, use the CP/M stuff on the PC to write my SAM stuff, copy it over using DOSGRAB and PRODOS and hey presto... erk.. SImon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 12:13:28 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Cow???? Date: Fri, 05 May 95 12:00:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FAA75D9@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 12 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 99 Lines: 12 > > Cow??? > > > > DMZ > > === > > > > Eh? Big, stupid walking burgers, you can't miss them. D. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 12:32:07 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 12:31:14 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9438.199505051034@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> from "William Easson" at May 5, 95 11:34:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 893 Lines: 18 > The Microsoft keyboards are... > a) not compatible with the SAM yet. > b) crap. Apparently, one needs to be hunched over the top of one to get > the full benefit. Then there's learning to type all over again. Learning to type again isn't that hard a thing to do: you effectively do it to a lesser degree when you switch from SUN to Apple to Archimedes to SAM to PC to +2 to Commodore 16.... they all have different key combinations and maps -- the 1234567890QWERTYUIOP--ZXCVBNM arrangements are about the only things which remain constant... SImon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 12:40:04 1995 Date: Fri, 5 May 95 12:21:36 BST From: cmcneil@mcs.dundee.ac.uk (CEO InfiniteLoop) Message-Id: <9505051121.AA28101@pop> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: I surrender :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 142 Lines: 6 Yeah, well, if Cookie said he got the problems from using AMIPRO.....do you think he would really be using a sam? I thought not. Campbell. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 12:51:12 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: Cow???? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 12:48:09 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <2FAA75D9@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Dan [MIS]" at May 5, 95 12:00:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 425 Lines: 14 > > > Cow??? > > Eh? > > Big, stupid walking burgers, you can't miss them. ***ROTFLHAOAKTC*** Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 13:00:48 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505051157.AA13029@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: Cow???? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:57:57 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 5, 95 12:48:09 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 19 > > > > > Cow??? > > > Eh? > > > > Big, stupid walking burgers, you can't miss them. > > ***ROTFLHAOAKTC*** Rolling on the floor laughing his arm off at kising (?) the cow? > > Simon -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 13:29:27 1995 Message-Id: <7345.199505051211@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Cow???? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:11:48 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <2FAA75D9@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Dan [MIS]" at May 5, 95 12:00:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 722 Lines: 31 > > > > > Cow??? > > > > > > DMZ > > > === > > > > > > > Eh? > > Big, stupid walking burgers, you can't miss them. > > D. > Take a look at my work address. I've rectalled the bu**ers! (Imagine having half a tonne of straining meat upto your armpit, cutting off the blood supply for half an hour. Jim Herriot had it easy.) But why did you say "cow"? Lampshade. -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 13:32:07 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: Cow???? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:29:28 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505051157.AA13029@wwwlab.cern.ch> from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 5, 95 01:57:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 667 Lines: 21 > > ***ROTFLHAOAKTC*** > > Rolling on the floor laughing his arm off at kising (?) the cow? Sorry... vague americanism I picked up from spending too much time on talkers (btw: for talker sites, http to http://www.hut.fi/~kkalpio/ChatList.html). It means: Rolling on the floor laughing his ass off and kicking the cat... Poor cat :) Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 13:36:15 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:21:33 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505051121.AA28101@pop> from "CEO InfiniteLoop" at May 5, 95 12:21:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 542 Lines: 14 > > Yeah, well, if Cookie said he got the problems from using AMIPRO.....do you think he would really be using a sam? > > I thought not. Erm... hang on... where did I say I got the problems from using AMIPRO ? Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 13:42:29 1995 Message-Id: <9698.199505051220@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Cow???? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:20:11 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 5, 95 12:48:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 553 Lines: 27 > > > > > Cow??? > > > Eh? > > > > Big, stupid walking burgers, you can't miss them. > > ***ROTFLHAOAKTC*** > Rolls... ...On... ...The... ...Floor... ...Laughing... ...Like... ...then what? -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 13:46:29 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Fri, 5 May 95 13:36:16 BST Message-Id: <24483.9505051236@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Quazar Surround Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 672 Lines: 17 Oops! missed out the 'www' in the http line! The following is the *correct* http for the Quazar Surround home pages: http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_sa/socs/virtual/cgp/quazar/qintro.html Sorry! __________________ __ ____ ___ ______________________ |Colin G Piggot | /| | | | | / | | |\ |(C) Colin G. Piggot | |cgp@st-and.ac.uk | / | | | |__| / |___| | \ |----------------------| | | / | | | | | / | | |__\ |*16* BIT SOUND STRIKES| |Presents The ... | / \ | |__| | | /___ | | | \ |THE SAM - HEARING IS | |_________________| /___\|=======SURROUND=======| \ |____________BELIEVING_| From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 13:59:24 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Fri, 5 May 95 13:27:20 BST Message-Id: <24294.9505051227@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Quazar Surround Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 803 Lines: 19 Hi folks, The Quazar SUrround home page is now on the web! http://st-and.ac.uk/~www_sa/socs/virtual/cgp/quazar/qintro.html Theres still a few bits and pieces to add (especially about Amalthea - if you didn't get it at the show, you've missed on off Sam's best games - programmed by Jupiter software - it's cool!) Colin P. __________________ __ ____ ___ ______________________ |Colin G Piggot | /| | | | | / | | |\ |(C) Colin G. Piggot | |cgp@st-and.ac.uk | / | | | |__| / |___| | \ |----------------------| | | / | | | | | / | | |__\ |*16* BIT SOUND STRIKES| |Presents The ... | / \ | |__| | | /___ | | | \ |THE SAM - HEARING IS | |_________________| /___\|=======SURROUND=======| \ |____________BELIEVING_| From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 14:41:16 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <11396.9505051333@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users mailing list) Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:33:14 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 363 Lines: 15 Hi! Thought I'd ask all you clever people for advice. [flatter like hell in hope they'll agree] How much should I expect to pay for a 2nd Hand, colour, stereo monitor? I'm considering buying one after seeing how good they look at the show, and my mate has one he'd sell me, but I have no idea what the sort of going price for them is. Any Ideas? Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 14:46:52 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: RE: Quazar Surround Date: Fri, 05 May 95 14:10:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FAA9605@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 28 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 582 Lines: 28 Tell you what, this net business ain't half spooky when you recieve the correction for a mail you get some 10 mins later. Weird. BTW: reading the web pages I noticed that the sample editing software is extra - how come when I'm going to be shelling out UKP60+ for the I/F and not get any editing software (I will be purchasing one in about 2 weeks - pay day!) Swiz! Dan. First: > From: sam-users-owner > To: sam-users > Subject: Quazar Surround > Date: 05 May 1995 13:27 Second: > From: sam-users-owner > To: sam-users > Subject: Quazar Surround > Date: 05 May 1995 13:36 From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 15:24:09 1995 Message-Id: <26125.199505051327@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Quazar Surround To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:27:32 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <24483.9505051236@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> from "Colin G Piggot" at May 5, 95 01:36:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 404 Lines: 17 > > Sorry! > No probs. Thanxx for the link. -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 16:04:12 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 15:57:58 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <11396.9505051333@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> from "Tim Paveley" at May 5, 95 02:33:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 928 Lines: 22 > I'm considering buying one after seeing how good they look at the show, and > my mate has one he'd sell me, but I have no idea what the sort of going price > for them is. Make sure you check them for colour deviation -- the one I got seems to be from a bad batch. Basically, set the screen to all RED, check it looks okay, all GREEN, then all BLUE. Make sure that the colours are fine all over. (Otherwise it may need degaussing). You can check the focusing by checking if mode3 text is perfectly readable on it. It should be -- Phillips have a very nice dot mask and phosphor arrangement. Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 16:28:54 1995 Message-Id: <9505051519.AA06780@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 May 95 17:19:13 METDST In-Reply-To: ; from "Simon Cooke" at May 5, 95 3:57 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 425 Lines: 11 Just in case Simon's view sounds a little negative - I bought a Philips CM8833 MK11 (if this is the monitor you are thinking about) at about the same time, and mine works perfectly. In fact I would go as far as to say its probably the best piece of computer equipment I have. I wish I had bought one earlier when they were a lot cheaper and easier to get hold of! Allan BTW Simon do you still want a copy of Hitech C? -- From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 17:22:08 1995 Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 16:30:10 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8256@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Cow???? X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 275 Lines: 20 In message <10036.199505051036@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> William Easson writes: > > > > Cow??? > > > > DMZ > > === > > > > Eh? You mean Burp? Bovine burp quite a lot... The SAM Bovine demo. What the scrolly in each of the 4 stomachs! :-) Brian -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 5 21:52:20 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Fri, 5 May 95 21:50:37 BST Message-Id: <3143.9505052050@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: RE: Quazar Surround Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1355 Lines: 32 Dan Doore said : > BTW: reading the web pages I noticed that the sample editing software is > extra - how come when I'm going to be shelling out UKP60+ for the > I/F and not get any editing software (I will be purchasing one in > about 2 weeks - pay day!) Well, a hell of a lot of time has gone into the editting software, (Quazar Studio - its got its own SMOOTH, FAST WIMP system!) and basically i've spent a hell of a lot developing the Quazar Surround, and I mean a lot! The price of Quazar Studio (the editting software) will also cover all upgrades for it, as bits will be added on request - i'm always looking for ideas and suggestions for any software. But the Quazar Surround does come with a lot of software (see the web pages!) You could argue why you dont get anything useful with the mouse system (unless you count 'Flash' as being useful!) Colin Piggot. __________________ __ ____ ___ ______________________ |Colin G Piggot | /| | | | | / | | |\ |(C) Colin G. Piggot | |cgp@st-and.ac.uk | / | | | |__| / |___| | \ |----------------------| | | / | | | | | / | | |__\ |*16* BIT SOUND STRIKES| |Presents The ... | / \ | |__| | | /___ | | | \ |THE SAM - HEARING IS | |_________________| /___\|=======SURROUND=======| \ |____________BELIEVING_| From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat May 6 16:11:47 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 16:05:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: tsp93 -- "How Much?" (May 5, 2:33pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: How Much? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 661 Lines: 23 On May 5, 2:33pm in "How Much?", you warbled: ] Thought I'd ask all you clever people for advice. Well, all the clever people have already answered... so I'll just give my 2p's anyway... ] How much should I expect to pay for a 2nd Hand, colour, stereo monitor? I'd say look in Micro Mart (weekly rag). It's only 60p and has some of the best bargains I ever saw. ] I'm considering buying one after seeing how good they look at the show, and ] my mate has one he'd sell me, but I have no idea what the sort of going price ] for them is. At a guess, anything between 50 and 100UKP. ] Any Ideas? I paid 100 for mine, but that was about 2 years ago. Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat May 6 21:27:51 1995 From: stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl Original-Received: by tic.iaf.nl id 0VNIH007 Sat, 06 May 95 22:31:54 -0600 Pp-Warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line Message-Id: <9505062231.0VNIH00@tic.iaf.nl> Organization: Internet Connection BBS X-Mailer: TBBS/PIMP v3.11 Date: Sat, 06 May 95 22:31:54 -0600 Subject: A little chat... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4963 Lines: 84 Hi all, just a little bit of chat from me. First of all hi to everyone I saw in Gloucester, as far as I know that means Simon Cooke, Colin MacDonald, Colin Piggot, David Zambonini, Graham Goring, Arne what's his name, and that is all the people I saw - didn't see Tim Pavely although he was supposed to be around somewhere. Big misser was Dan, where were you? Robert van der Veeke, Martijn Groen and myself had a great time in Gloucester. I managed to sell all my SAMDACs for Ben and a couple of copies of the SAM MOD player. Not having a stand does not make selling things easy. So I made a necklace with the SAMDACs by plugging them into each other (ooooohhh!) and strung a few copies of the SAM MOD player onto the necklace and voila. Both items are of course still available, the SAMDAC for 25 pounds from Ben Versteeg and the SAM MOD player for five pounds from me OR from Derek Morgan (not quite sure on his address). There should be a demo of the all new SAM MOD player on the next FRED (right Colin?). Anyway, Gloucester was great, London was aweful at first. The three of us took the last train back to London on Saturday night (at least we caught the last train, Matt Round and Dave Handley missed there last trains due to taxis not wanting to pull out for them). All went well until we needed to find a place to stay. EVERY SINGLE B&B or HOTEL had this horrid little sign in the window saying NO VACANCIES. Apparently there was some rugby event in London (or so I was led to believe). After having trundled around for over two hours without any luck we thought we'd let the professionals do there work and headed off to a reservation agency. The lady behind the counter said she was closing because she didn't have a single bed in ALL of London. So we asked some policemen what we could do. There brilliant advice was to sleep just outside of the gates of the station (Victoria), but do make sure that one of you stays awake so that your bags don't "walk away". I had no intention of sleeping on the street, so even though I was dead beat (having left home 5pm the Friday before the Saturday) we thought we might as well go clubbing. Luckily on the way to the heart of London we ran into this dubious looking character standing outside a hotel WITHOUT a sign. He said he had a room with three beds and asked us if we wanted to see it first. The reason he asked was rather obvious, the room was rather rubbishy to say the least - but it was a room! And that at a mere 9 pounds per person - this ended up being 10 pounds pp because he didn't have change from 30 quid and I couldn't really care less anymore. So that was a glorious end to a glorious day with a dip at the end. The next day it was beautiful weather (I suppose that's why they call it Sunday) and the three of us went to Alien Wars (rather excellent ghosthouse thingy), did some Virtual Reality, did some Quasaring (bastards went along and rebuilt the place since the last time I was there three years ago - it wasn't for the better) and simply dawdled around London (even did some cultural type things like seeing Buckingham Palace and Big Ben). The trip home went beautifully - but I think the heater in the bus was broken down because it was blimmin' freezing in the bus. End of story. In one of his mailings Cookie mentioned my DOSGRAB program - how on earth it got that name I do not know since I never gave it a name. The reason that it only reads PC discs is because I never really finished it. As soon as I got it reading PC discs I was happy with it - I could read the mods in directly from my PC discs. The big plus with "DOSGRAB" is that it reads ALL PC discs, because it reads the disc structure from the boot sector. So it will read 180,320,360 and 720k discs. In theory it should also be able to read 1.2mb and 1.44mb discs. The second good point is that it can read from either drive 1 or 2. Anyway, for saving to PC discs I use Geoff's KE-disc. One little tip for when using this program - make sure you have a dos on your SAM disc or else the program will think it's a PC disc. As to reading ST discs - never done that (or needed to). Another small item, I thought Graham's show report was rather excellent - but the one that was mailed got cut off after the mention of Collier's mine game - what happened? There was also a small error in the info - how am I supposed to look like an australian-american???? I'm an ex-kiwi, not an ex-aussie!!!! Right, I've got to go I'm rather tired since today was "Bevrijdingsdag" - 50 years ago that the Netherlands were freed from the Germans and I've basically been sitting in town allday in the sun with a beer in my hand - what more can I ask for? Solar Flare signing off in a not totally alcohol free frame of mind...... L8R Solar Flare of Entropy (aka Stefan.Drissen@tic.iaf.nl) ps. Sorry for forcing you to read through so much drivel - but then again, it was your own choice. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 7 10:43:07 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <29693.9505070941@monet.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: EGGBuM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users mailing list) Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 10:41:37 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 349 Lines: 16 Hi! Just put a game on the ftp site in /pub/sam-coupe/incoming (surprised at that path huh?) Called EGGBuM. Oh, and it's also avalible from my Web Page by clicking on the word EGGBuM at the bottom, to get a zip file. Tim ....@/ -- Tim Paveley - University of Southampton Sam Coupe Web Pages: http://whig.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~tsp93/Coupe/home.html From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 7 15:28:59 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505071427.AA22646@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: EGGBuM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 16:27:29 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <29693.9505070941@monet.ecs.soton.ac.uk> from "Tim Paveley" at May 7, 95 10:41:37 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 369 Lines: 17 > > Hi! > > Just put a game on the ftp site in /pub/sam-coupe/incoming > (surprised at that path huh?) > > Called EGGBuM. And has been moved to /pub/sam-coupe/games/eggbum.zip > Tim ....@/ -Frode 'Only 2 months till I see my SAM again' -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 7 16:11:20 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 16:04:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: stefan.drissen -- "A little chat..." (May 6, 10:31pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A little chat... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1322 Lines: 43 On May 6, 10:31pm in "A little chat...", stefan warbled: ] Hi all, Hello! [lots of interesting stuff deleted...] ] my PC discs. The big plus with "DOSGRAB" is that it reads ALL PC discs, ] because it reads the disc structure from the boot sector. So it will read ] 180,320,360 and 720k discs. Ummmm. I'm not sure if I want to hear this... Doesn't KEdisk????? It ****ing well should do!!! ] The second good point is that it can read from either drive 1 or 2. Ahhh... that one I never got round to, although the actual _code_ is there. :) ] Anyway, for saving to PC discs I use Geoff's KE-disc. ^ Hmmmmmm... ] when using this program - make sure you have a dos on your SAM disc or else ] the program will think it's a PC disc. As to reading ST discs - never ] done that (or needed to). Yeah. The way I worked out whether it was a PC disk or not was quite foul. I would fix it but... (usual excuses re: finals in 3 weeks, my sam not working, can't be bothered, etc etc etc) ] Right, I've got to go I'm rather tired since today was "Bevrijdingsdag" - 50 ] years ago that the Netherlands were freed from the Germans and I've basically ] been sitting in town allday in the sun with a beer in my hand - what more ] can I ask for? Lots of money? :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 7 16:11:37 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 16:09:45 +0100 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: screen modes... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1026 Lines: 27 Maybe this may sound a little boring after all the talk of MiDgETs (or however you're supposed to capitalise it) but... How would people feel about building a cheap piece of hardware that wouldn't actually increase the graphic capabilities of the Sam at _all_...? No, seriously, read on, it's more interesting than it sounds... One of the major problems with the Sam is the speed it bitblits. This is generally accepted. How would it be if we could hack together a widget that would change a normal mode 4 so that it used bitplanes, instead of the current 1-nibble:1-dot arrangement? I haven't really thought much about this, I must admit. How easy would it be? My tech. manual is at home, and I haven't looked at building hardware for about a year, so if anyone feels they can comment on this, please do! As to advantages: apart from making stupid demo coding _far_ easier ( :-) ) it would also make scrolling large areas more possible (say if you just scroll 2 of the bitplanes instead of 4)... "Discuss". :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 7 18:52:45 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505071751.AA05243@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 7 May 95 18:51:21 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Simon Cooke" at May 5, 95 12:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 427 Lines: 15 > > Learning to type again isn't that hard a thing to do: you effectively do > it to a lesser degree when you switch from SUN to Apple to Archimedes to > SAM to PC to +2 to Commodore 16.... they all have different key > combinations and maps -- the 1234567890QWERTYUIOP--ZXCVBNM > arrangements are about the only things which remain constant... > > SImon > Have I just found a fellow ex-C16 user? -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 7 18:56:39 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505071755.AA05479@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 7 May 95 18:55:25 BST In-Reply-To: <9505051519.AA06780@dxmint.cern.ch>; from "Allan Skillman" at May 5, 95 5:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 287 Lines: 7 - I bought a Philips > CM8833 MK11 (if this is the monitor you are thinking about) at about the same > time, and mine works perfectly. In fact I would go as far as to say its > probably the best piece of computer equipment I have. > But a bit useless without the computer, hmmm???/ -- From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 8 11:27:54 1995 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <7967.199505081026@stone.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: screen modes... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 11:26:38 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 7, 95 04:09:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 926 Lines: 22 > How would people feel about building a cheap piece of hardware that wouldn't > actually increase the graphic capabilities of the Sam at _all_...? > > How would it be if we could hack together a widget that would change a normal > mode 4 so that it used bitplanes, instead of the current 1-nibble:1-dot > arrangement? Yes, but you still have 4 bits to 1 dot, so to write 1 pixel of a non-specified colour, you have to write to 4 bytes of memory, instead of 1. > As to advantages: apart from making stupid demo coding _far_ easier ( :-) ) > it would also make scrolling large areas more possible (say if you just > scroll 2 of the bitplanes instead of 4)... But only if those areas are handily sized (xples of 8 pixels across), otherwise you have to scroll parts of bytes, say, scroll 3 bits of a byte, but not the other 5 - which as I'm sure you can imagine might be even harder than working on 4 bits at a time. Nige From imc Mon May 8 12:00:16 1995 Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 May 95 12:00:16 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Simon Cooke" at May 4, 95 11:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 535 Lines: 18 On Thu, 4 May 95 11:38 BST, Simon Cooke said: > THE SHOW REPORT - BY GRAHAM GORING Well I could correct the spelling errors and the spurious apostrophes, but anyway... > Andrew Collier's would have probably been nicer had it > worked, but that's life, as they say. Why, what happened? Incidentally over Easter I improved one of his demos by making the giant scrolly a bit smoother. I don't know whether he took that to the show. Incidentally: buy "mines" 'cos it's dead good! :-) imc From imc Mon May 8 12:13:23 1995 Subject: Re: Quazar Surround To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 May 95 12:13:23 BST In-Reply-To: <24294.9505051227@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk>; from "Colin G Piggot" at May 5, 95 1:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 477 Lines: 14 On Fri, 5 May 95 13:27:20 BST, Colin G Piggot said: > The Quazar SUrround home page is now on the web! > http://st-and.ac.uk/~www_sa/socs/virtual/cgp/quazar/qintro.html *Please* get rid of those blinking titles! (Yes I know I can turn blinking off myself, but you shouldn't have put them there). Also, please don't write "it's" unless you mean "it is". Incidentally, you have text flowing after some of the fancy coloured rules. Just thought you might like to know. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 8 12:33:26 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 12:21:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: N.J.Kettlewell -- "Re: screen modes..." (May 8, 11:26am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: screen modes... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 775 Lines: 19 On May 8, 11:26am in "Re: screen modes...", Nige warbled: ] Yes, but you still have 4 bits to 1 dot, so to write 1 pixel of a ] non-specified colour, you have to write to 4 bytes of memory, instead of 1. ] But only if those areas are handily sized (xples of 8 pixels across), ] otherwise you have to scroll parts of bytes, say, scroll 3 bits of a byte, ] but not the other 5 - which as I'm sure you can imagine might be even harder ] than working on 4 bits at a time. Mmmmmm. How about adding a barrell shifter :) Seriously though, the ST seems to manage far better than the Sam, even considering the 16-bit processor. Imagine a 4-colour background scrolling shoot-em-up... I guess it could probably be handled at about 25fps. I could be horribly wrong though :) Geoff From imc Mon May 8 12:35:12 1995 Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 May 95 12:35:12 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Simon Cooke" at May 1, 95 10:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1425 Lines: 34 On Mon, 1 May 1995 10:26:33 +0100 (BST), Simon Cooke said: > It IS small C, but it does have structures, etc etc. In fact, there's > only a couple of things that it's missing: > FILE handling (ARGHHHH!!!!) other than through streams, Could you quantify this? What kind of file handling do you think exists other than via streams? (Well there's open(), read(), etc. but they are Unix things as far as I am aware and are not guaranteed to be on any particular platform). > floating point types > long integer types > sizeof() expression is missing > It only assembles in the range 0-64k (and that's if you want to risk > using the full 64k... usually, you're limited to 32k). That's more than a couple. In fact it virtually rules out the idea of porting any program across from another platform. You certainly wouldn't get anything big on there (like TeX, for example) even if you typed it in from scratch and tried to keep within the limits of the machine. Are you saying that the maximum integer on Sam C is 65535 (or 32767 if it is signed)? > Still, I may use it to write some clipping code and some 3d stuff... you > never know. I'm going to look into porting GNU C, but that'll be in a > year or so yet. So if you want a C and fancy writing a few libraries, get > to it! I thought we had ruled out GNU C because of its immense size. Anyway, I hope to see a slightly better compiler some time soon... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 8 13:12:14 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Mon, 8 May 95 13:10:25 BST Message-Id: <465.9505081210@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Quazar Surround Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 16 > *Please* get rid of those blinking titles! (Yes I know I can turn > blinking off myself, but you shouldn't have put them there). Well, I quite like blinking titles, very, err..., eye catching! > Also, please don't write "it's" unless you mean "it is". Oops! > Incidentally, you have text flowing after some of the fancy coloured > rules. Just thought you might like to know. Yeah, i know. I've not got round to setting it out properly. Colin P. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 8 14:32:56 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:30:39 +0100 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: oh yes... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 312 Lines: 11 CD quality sound is at 44kHz. Saying that Quazar provides you with CD-quality sound is therefore inaccurate. Also, you don't mention the dynamic range of the Quazar, or any of the other things most people like to know about when they read about sound quality... Oh well. I'll stick with the Risc-PC :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 8 14:32:56 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:34:20 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505081135.AA01974@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 8, 95 01:35:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1865 Lines: 44 > On Mon, 1 May 1995 10:26:33 +0100 (BST), Simon Cooke said: > > FILE handling (ARGHHHH!!!!) other than through streams, > > Could you quantify this? What kind of file handling do you think exists > other than via streams? (Well there's open(), read(), etc. but they are > Unix things as far as I am aware and are not guaranteed to be on any > particular platform). Okay... you can't open a File within the C itself -- you have to do it from BASIC. And for that, you need MasterDOS. No FILE pointer structures. Etc etc. > > floating point types > > long integer types > > sizeof() expression is missing > > It only assembles in the range 0-64k (and that's if you want to risk > > using the full 64k... usually, you're limited to 32k). > > That's more than a couple. In fact it virtually rules out the idea of > porting any program across from another platform. You certainly wouldn't > get anything big on there (like TeX, for example) even if you typed it in > from scratch and tried to keep within the limits of the machine. True... that's the worrying thing. > Are you saying that the maximum integer on Sam C is 65535 (or 32767 if it > is signed)? Yep -- 65535 or 32767 if it's signed... > I thought we had ruled out GNU C because of its immense size. Anyway, > I hope to see a slightly better compiler some time soon... Well... I looked at it, and it wasn't too good. I've looked at Hitech C as well, and it's much much better -- but it may be an idea to write one from scratch instead. I'll keep looking at it. Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From imc Mon May 8 15:41:04 1995 Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 May 95 15:41:04 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Simon Cooke" at May 8, 95 2:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 433 Lines: 12 On Mon, 8 May 1995 14:34:20 +0100 (BST), Simon Cooke said: > Okay... you can't open a File within the C itself -- you have to do it > from BASIC. And for that, you need MasterDOS. No FILE pointer structures. Oh. Now I see what you meant by "streams"; presumably you meant things like #5 and all that. Not stdio streams (i.e. FILE pointers). That is very depressing... I thought Sam C claimed to provide a stdio library. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 8 20:58:28 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505081922.AA27920@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: oh yes... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 May 95 20:22:45 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Mars Bar" at May 8, 95 2:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 144 Lines: 12 > > Oh well. I'll stick with the Risc-PC :) > > Geoff > Which makes me wonder: why do you spread your pessimism on a sam-users list?! -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 8 21:12:12 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505081926.AA28244@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 May 95 20:26:23 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Simon Cooke" at May 8, 95 2:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 458 Lines: 14 it may be an idea to write one [a C compiler] > from scratch instead. I'll keep looking at it. > > Simon > Or forget about it completely. Can I ask... why are you all so keen on C? As far as I know it's not a good structured language, and if its qualities as an unstructured language is desired, then it could be far more unstructured! Structured or unstructured, I say. Take your pick! (or is it just the non-portability between machines that's nice?) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 09:47:27 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:21:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: ee31ag -- "Re: SAM C" (May 8, 8:26pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2278 Lines: 56 On May 8, 8:26pm in "Re: SAM C", Andrew warbled: ] Or forget about it completely. Can I ask... why are you ] all so keen on C? As far as I know it's not a good structured ] language, and if its qualities as an unstructured language is ] desired, then it could be far more unstructured! Structured or ] unstructured, I say. Take your pick! Right. Of the "high-level" languages, C is the one that translates into the fastest machine code: the reason for this is that most of the primitives in C have direct machine-code translations. (There are other reasons for it aswell...) This is not quite so true on the 8-bit z80 as it is for machines like the 68000 or others, for which C was _designed_, but it is still an advantage. ] (or is it just the non-portability between machines that's nice?) Non-portability? Is that meant to be a joke? Take Dune II. The main part of the code is written in C. You want to completely rewrite all those routines in Assembler? I know I wouldn't. The fact that it _is_ written in C (with only the graphics and _highly_ speed-intensive parts written in base M/C) means that it's _very_ easy to port. Your claim that C is `unstructured' is plain untrue. It is _possible_ to write highly foul and unreadable and unstructured C. However, it is possible to write readable, perfectly modularised code in C, in the same way it is in any other language. The point about C is that you can do just about anything with it. It is (usually) fast enough and versatile enough to allow you to whatever you want. Yes, the huge amount of programs written in C (usually for unix) is an advantage. Apart from the absence of concurrent programming on the Sam, most of these programs could be reproduced with little difficulty (anyone fancy writing a unixlib?) simply by recompiling. I don't know enough about the concurrency provided by Driver... might this allow fork() and signal()? All other "real" machines have C compilers. While the Sam may not benefit in quite the same way as others do from it (lacking the power to take advantage of the reasons for which C was designed), it will still make a huge difference to writing software. Ray-tracers, anyone? Postscript viewers, anyone? Dune II, anyone? :-) I hope this answered your question. Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 12:07:30 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: A little chat... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:07:56 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505062231.0VNIH00@tic.iaf.nl> from "stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl" at May 6, 95 10:31:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 800 Lines: 17 > In one of his mailings Cookie mentioned my DOSGRAB program - how on earth it > got that name I do not know since I never gave it a name. The reason that it Ah, that's easy. WHen you sent me the disc with the preview of the modplayer on it, there was a program on it called DOS GRAB, which grabbed a mod from the PC and compressed it, then chucked it to a SAM disc. I just removed the compression code and hey presto -- dead quick way of getting files off the pc. SImon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 12:07:51 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: I surrender :) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:03:11 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505071751.AA05243@central.surrey.ac.uk> from "Mr Andrew M Gale" at May 7, 95 06:51:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 811 Lines: 19 > > Learning to type again isn't that hard a thing to do: you effectively do > > it to a lesser degree when you switch from SUN to Apple to Archimedes to > > SAM to PC to +2 to Commodore 16.... they all have different key > > combinations and maps -- the 1234567890QWERTYUIOP--ZXCVBNM > > arrangements are about the only things which remain constant... > > Have I just found a fellow ex-C16 user? Yes, but don't let anybody else know. It's too embarassing. :) SImon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 12:07:53 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: A little chat... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:05:08 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 7, 95 04:04:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 911 Lines: 21 > On May 6, 10:31pm in "A little chat...", stefan warbled: > [lots of interesting stuff deleted...] > > ] my PC discs. The big plus with "DOSGRAB" is that it reads ALL PC discs, > ] because it reads the disc structure from the boot sector. So it will read > ] 180,320,360 and 720k discs. > > Ummmm. I'm not sure if I want to hear this... The big plus I found with DOSGRAB was that I can load in the code in two seconds flat, dump the files to disc, and then get out of it quick -- it's very compact, and it's easy to automate. But only for getting stuff from a PC to a SAM. Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 12:11:40 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:08:32 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505051519.AA06780@dxmint.cern.ch> from "Allan Skillman" at May 5, 95 05:19:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 486 Lines: 15 > BTW Simon do you still want a copy of Hitech C? Erm... I'd say yes, but only if your copy has the source code for the compiler et al... :) Thanks Allan, SImon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 12:13:06 1995 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <6468.199505091101@verchon.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: screen modes... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:01:56 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 9, 95 12:02:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 519 Lines: 16 > > > On May 8, 11:26am in "Re: screen modes...", Nige warbled: > > Seriously though, the ST seems to manage far better than the Sam, even > > considering the 16-bit processor. > > > > Imagine a 4-colour background scrolling shoot-em-up... I guess it could > > probably be handled at about 25fps. I could be horribly wrong though :) No I didn't. That was whoever replied to my reply... I think the ST "manages far better" because it has a 68000, not a Z80. There's a _hell_ of a difference between the two. Nige From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 12:14:09 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: screen modes... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:02:40 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 8, 95 12:21:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 925 Lines: 19 > On May 8, 11:26am in "Re: screen modes...", Nige warbled: > Seriously though, the ST seems to manage far better than the Sam, even > considering the 16-bit processor. > > Imagine a 4-colour background scrolling shoot-em-up... I guess it could > probably be handled at about 25fps. I could be horribly wrong though :) I think it could be handled in about 50fps, but the main problem is that you may as well do a full graphics board -- just doing the bitplanes on their own will mean a whole new graphics chip, or something the size of the SAM in discrete logic that plugs in under the ASIC. Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 12:24:15 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:01:27 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505081441.AA02417@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 8, 95 04:41:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 863 Lines: 22 > On Mon, 8 May 1995 14:34:20 +0100 (BST), Simon Cooke said: > > > Okay... you can't open a File within the C itself -- you have to do it > > from BASIC. And for that, you need MasterDOS. No FILE pointer structures. > > Oh. Now I see what you meant by "streams"; presumably you meant things > like #5 and all that. Not stdio streams (i.e. FILE pointers). That is > very depressing... I know... nasty huh? > I thought Sam C claimed to provide a stdio library. Well... it sort of does -- just doesn't have the file bits... :) Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 12:24:53 1995 Message-Id: <9505091122.AA27082@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 95 13:22:02 METDST In-Reply-To: ; from "Simon Cooke" at May 9, 95 12:08 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 395 Lines: 13 Well really should be private mail but.... > Erm... I'd say yes, but only if your copy has the source code for the > compiler et al... > > :) Hmm - haven't got the source code for the compiler but I have got the source code for the libraries :) BTW After two solid days of coding over the bank holiday my first Driver application is coming along fine. Anyone else working on Driver? Allan From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 13:04:57 1995 From: eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:48:53 +0100 Message-Id: <417.199505091148@csgi18.scs.leeds.ac.uk> To: sam-users%nvg.unit.no@gps.leeds.ac.uk Subject: DOSGRAB X-Mailer: [XMailTool v3.1.0] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 986 Lines: 28 --------- Received message begins Here --------- > > On May 6, 10:31pm in "A little chat...", stefan warbled: > > [lots of interesting stuff deleted...] > > > > ] my PC discs. The big plus with "DOSGRAB" is that it reads ALL PC discs, > > ] because it reads the disc structure from the boot sector. So it will read > > ] 180,320,360 and 720k discs. > > > > Ummmm. I'm not sure if I want to hear this... > > The big plus I found with DOSGRAB was that I can load in the code in two > seconds flat, dump the files to disc, and then get out of it quick -- > it's very compact, and it's easy to automate. But only for getting stuff > from a PC to a SAM. > > Simon Can you please upload DOSGRAB to nvg, (if it's shareware/pd of course) I would be very interested in it. Thanks, Cheers, Arne P.S: Simon, I'll be able to translate the descriptions of those Speccy multitasking routines I gave you in Gloucester only next weekend, at the moment I have lots of work to do... :-( From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 13:24:38 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: DOSGRAB To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:25:58 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <417.199505091148@csgi18.scs.leeds.ac.uk> from "eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk" at May 9, 95 12:48:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 747 Lines: 20 > Can you please upload DOSGRAB to nvg, (if it's shareware/pd of course) I would > be very interested in it. Yeah no problem -- the moment I get a free minute (i've got exams a comin') :) > > P.S: Simon, I'll be able to translate the descriptions of those Speccy > multitasking routines I gave you in Gloucester only next weekend, at the > moment I have lots of work to do... :-( I know that feeling!!! Cheers man, Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 14:25:21 1995 From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Subject: Re: screen modes... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:54:17 +0100 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 9, 95 12:02:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Message-Id: <9505091254.aa06492@valar.ee.surrey.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 604 Lines: 17 > > I think it could be handled in about 50fps, but the main problem is that > you may as well do a full graphics board -- just doing the bitplanes on > their own will mean a whole new graphics chip, or something the size of > the SAM in discrete logic that plugs in under the ASIC. > > Simon > It had occurred to me in the past that it wouldn't be too tricky to attach an 8-bit (or even 16-bit) PC VGA card to the SAM, using the XMEML facility... and VGA cards aren't too expensive either. The monitors are a bit pricey though, and text and static images may only be realistically possible. -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 15:35:29 1995 From: goringgn Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:30:15 +0100 Message-Id: <15396.9505091430@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: showreport.html X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 164 Lines: 6 Why buy mines? It's on the next FRED? Oh, and he got some odd corruption on his demo, pity as it looked REALLY nice. DMZ said he'd seen it working though. Graham From imc Tue May 9 15:38:21 1995 Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 95 15:38:21 BST In-Reply-To: <15396.9505091430@sun.aston.ac.uk>; from "goringgn" at May 9, 95 3:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 187 Lines: 7 On Tue, 9 May 1995 15:30:15 +0100, goringgn said: > Why buy mines? It's on the next FRED? I didn't know that. I can't imagine why he gave it to them as it's worth loadsamoney. :-) imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 15:54:31 1995 From: goringgn Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:25:59 +0100 Message-Id: <15373.9505091425@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: STRATFORD, sunny startford. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 634 Lines: 15 My old matey Colin "Short arse little squoit" Anderton was under the impression he met a SAM user from the Stratford Upon Avon area, who was at Uni or summink. Any bods know who he was on about??? Oh, and Steffan, you SOUND like an Australian-American. In the starred shirt at the show you merely looked like a pratt. ;) Judst kiddin'. Graham - BTW, there's some more stuff on the next FRED, but I didn't see your MOD demo thingy on the menu. But I could quite easily be wrong. Colin's got an almost surplus of dead good stuff so he's holding some back for the next issue (58). BUt I can happily say that the MOD player's great. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 16:28:44 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 16:02:46 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <15396.9505091430@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "goringgn" at May 9, 95 03:30:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 760 Lines: 20 > Why buy mines? It's on the next FRED? > > Oh, and he got some odd corruption on his demo, pity as it looked REALLY nice. > DMZ said he'd seen it working though. Corruption? How very ...odd... indeed. ?! *laughs evilly and disappears off into infinity* No, japes aside, I wonder what this demo looked like? Was it the one with the really BIIIIGGG scrolly scrolling across the screen -- VMPR one, with BOBs in the background? Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 17:28:09 1995 From: goringgn Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 16:51:15 +0100 Message-Id: <15773.9505091551@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: showreport.html X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 423 Lines: 16 > From Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk Tue May 9 16:49 BST 1995 > > Why buy mines? It's on the next FRED? > > I didn't know that. I can't imagine why he gave it to them as it's worth > loadsamoney. :-) > > imc > Probably because it's MINES, and EVERYBODY has at least ONE MILLION versions already. And I doubt ANYONE would actually shell out moolah for another, despite it having speech and loadsa options. Urk. Graham From imc Tue May 9 17:30:29 1995 Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 95 17:30:29 BST In-Reply-To: <15773.9505091551@sun.aston.ac.uk>; from "goringgn" at May 9, 95 4:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 172 Lines: 7 On Tue, 9 May 1995 16:51:15 +0100, goringgn said: > Probably because it's MINES, and EVERYBODY has at least ONE MILLION versions > already. Well I don't for a start. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 17:31:35 1995 From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 16:59:41 +0100 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 9, 95 04:02:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Message-Id: <9505091559.aa13073@nienna.ee.surrey.ac.uk.> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 295 Lines: 7 Since we've had all this talk about bit planes, can I be stupid and ask what they are? Is it like, rather than having a nybble per pixel, we have the equivalent of four mode 1 screen, and each one bit from each mode 1 screen combines to form the nybble for the 16-colour pixel? Or what?!?! -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 17:53:28 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505091649.AA11980@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 9 May 95 17:49:51 BST In-Reply-To: <15773.9505091551@sun.aston.ac.uk>; from "goringgn" at May 9, 95 4:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 519 Lines: 22 > > > From Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk Tue May 9 16:49 BST 1995 > > > Why buy mines? It's on the next FRED? > > > > I didn't know that. I can't imagine why he gave it to them as it's worth > > loadsamoney. :-) > > > > imc > > > > Probably because it's MINES, and EVERYBODY has at least ONE MILLION versions > already. And I doubt ANYONE would actually shell out moolah for another, despite > it having speech and loadsa options. > > > Graham How negative and generally unfriendly, man. Relax. -Earthchild. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 20:54:21 1995 Message-Id: <9587.9505091948@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 09 May 95 20:48:58 0100 From: Tim Paveley Organization: Electronics and Computer Science, University of Southampton X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; SunOS 4.1A sun4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam Coupe Web Pages - Admin. X-Url: news:comp.sys.sinclair Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 679 Lines: 21 To save on my typing and somewhat, I've been altering pathnames around a bit. Most of the actual files are the same, but some of the menus have moved. The main menu can still be got at as before, but you can now use the slightly smaller http://whig.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~tsp93/Coupe/ or http://whig.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~tsp93/coupe/ If you've got a link to my page, then I'd appreciate it if you changed it to this form, just incase I ever decide to make this the only link. Thanks - Tim ....@/ (For those who wonder why, I've just discovered that this will get expanded to ..../coupe/index.html, so I've been changing all my menu.html, contents.html etc, into index.html) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 9 23:20:26 1995 From: goringgn Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 23:15:01 +0100 Message-Id: <6642.9505092215@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: showreport.html X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 729 Lines: 26 > > > > > From Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk Tue May 9 16:49 BST 1995 > > > > Why buy mines? It's on the next FRED? > > > > > > I didn't know that. I can't imagine why he gave it to them as it's worth > > > loadsamoney. :-) > > > > > > imc > > > > > > > Probably because it's MINES, and EVERYBODY has at least ONE MILLION versions > > already. And I doubt ANYONE would actually shell out moolah for another, despite > > it having speech and loadsa options. > > > > > > Graham > > How negative and generally unfriendly, man. Relax. > > -Earthchild. > Like, sorreeee, Maaaan. Didn't mean it to be, I mean, like, it's a great game, the best version so far, but mines is like, well, the most overdone game ever. Moonbeam From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 09:17:31 1995 Message-Id: <715.199505100756@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 08:56:16 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505091630.AA08838@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 9, 95 06:30:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 554 Lines: 20 > > On Tue, 9 May 1995 16:51:15 +0100, goringgn said: > > Probably because it's MINES, and EVERYBODY has at least ONE MILLION versions > > already. > > Well I don't for a start. > > imc > Nor I. -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 09:37:31 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <2851.199505100822@liberator.ecs.soton.ac.uk.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 09:22:36 +0200 (BST) In-Reply-To: <715.199505100756@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> from "William Easson" at May 10, 95 08:56:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 352 Lines: 12 To Quote William Easson : > > On Tue, 9 May 1995 16:51:15 +0100, goringgn said: > > > Probably because it's MINES, and EVERYBODY has at least ONE MILLION versions > > > already. > > Well I don't for a start. > Nor I. I wrote a mines game once. It was called Mine! and I got paid a tenner for it. Just thought you might like to know that. Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 10:30:13 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: RE: A little chat... Date: Tue, 09 May 95 13:01:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB0F776@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 15 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 15 > just a little bit of chat from me. First of all hi to everyone I saw in > Gloucester, as far as I know that means Simon Cooke, Colin MacDonald, Colin > Piggot, David Zambonini, Graham Goring, Arne what's his name, and that is all > the people I saw - didn't see Tim Pavely although he was supposed to be around > somewhere. Big misser was Dan, where were you? Yeah, sorry about that, something nasty came up and I was unable to go. Bastard. Dan. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 12:07:44 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505101101.AA25664@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 95 12:01:25 BST In-Reply-To: <9505081441.AA02417@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk>; from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 8, 95 4:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 107 Lines: 4 One of our computer technician typpe bods has set up a Web 'Clarissa explains it all' page. Sad, huh? -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 12:21:33 1995 Message-Id: <32772.9505101118@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:18:32 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: <9505101101.AA25664@central.surrey.ac.uk> from "Mr Andrew M Gale" at May 10, 95 12:01:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 228 Lines: 10 Andrew M Gale announced: > One of our computer technician typpe bods has set up > a Web 'Clarissa explains it all' page. Sad, huh? Oh wow!! Gizza URI!!! We want the URL!!! We want the URL!!! ;) / >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:16:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: ee31ag -- "Re: showreport.html" (May 9, 4:59pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@no.unit.nvg Subject: Re: showreport.html Reply-To: sam-users@no.unit.nvg Status: RO Content-Length: 387 Lines: 11 On May 9, 4:59pm in "Re: showreport.html", you warbled: ] Since we've had all this talk about bit planes, can I be ] stupid and ask what they are? Is it like, rather than having a ] nybble per pixel, we have the equivalent of four mode 1 screen, ] and each one bit from each mode 1 screen combines to form the nybble ] for the 16-colour pixel? Or what?!?! Got it in one, dude. Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 13:08:59 1995 Date: Wed, 10 May 95 12:46:16 BST From: cmcneil@mcs.dundee.ac.uk (CEO InfiniteLoop) Message-Id: <9505101146.AA15642@pop> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Clarissa Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 67 Lines: 9 Quick tell me the URL. NOW. I want to know it!!!!!! Campbell. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 16:50:24 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:43:27 +0100 Message-Id: <21197.9505101543@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: EGGBuM X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 252 Lines: 7 In response to Tim writing the lovely EGGBuM, I have decided I will have to write my own Games Master game, even though I hate the package. Look out for it, um, well, not soon. That's for sure. I might do one about flying pigs. Pigs are nice. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 17:01:46 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: EGGBuM Date: Wed, 10 May 95 10:06:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB148CB@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 21 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 537 Lines: 21 > > Hi! > > > > Just put a game on the ftp site in /pub/sam-coupe/incoming > > (surprised at that path huh?) > > > > Called EGGBuM. I downloaded this last night and it don't work! It crashes when the loading screen comes up, the drive light stays on and nowt happens. I have a hunch that this could be connected with my problems with .PAK files, but this one depacked ok, and I believe that .PAK files have some sort of CRC/Checksum so I don't think the .PAK files are at fault so what's going on? Roll on sam PKZIP! Dan Doore. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 17:32:33 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 17:22:42 +0100 Message-Id: <21337.9505101622@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: EGGBuM X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 763 Lines: 28 > > > Hi! > > > > > > Just put a game on the ftp site in /pub/sam-coupe/incoming > > > (surprised at that path huh?) > > > > > > Called EGGBuM. > > I downloaded this last night and it don't work! It crashes when the loading > screen comes > up, the drive light stays on and nowt happens. > > I have a hunch that this could be connected with my problems with .PAK > files, but this > one depacked ok, and I believe that .PAK files have some sort of > CRC/Checksum so > I don't think the .PAK files are at fault so what's going on? > > Roll on sam PKZIP! > > Dan Doore. > That's odd, I had no trouble downloading it. Getting my multiplug to sodding work and trying to de-gauss the bloody TV, now that caused problems. But the other bit was EASY. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 17:51:07 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <3391.9505101604@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: EGGBuM - Urk! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 17:04:09 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <2FB148CB@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Dan [MIS]" at May 10, 95 10:06:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 511 Lines: 19 To Quote Doore, Dan [MIS] : > > > Called EGGBuM. > I downloaded this last night and it don't work! It crashes when the loading > screen comes > up, the drive light stays on and nowt happens. Urk!!!! Well. As It should work okay. I'll try it myself tonight, using the ftp copy the copy on my account, and the copy sat on my disk, and see if I can work out where the problem lies. Sorry About that. I'll try and sort it soon. Tim ....@/ -- Tim Paveley Maths with Computer Science University of Southampton From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 19:20:27 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <4240.9505101756@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: EGGBuM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 18:56:22 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <21337.9505101622@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "goringgn" at May 10, 95 05:22:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 679 Lines: 25 To Quote goringgn : > That's odd, I had no trouble downloading it. Okay, I've done it myself. FTP'd to my Unix Account. unzip'd ftp'd to DOS copied to a DOS disk used KE_DISK to copy across. Loaded at 32000 CALL 32000 Placed on a disk with SamDOS and nothing else. Worked fine. Incidently I checked it with MasterDOS, and with MasterBASIC, no problems. However, with a 256k Sam you lose a whole load of graphics. Probably due to the size of the workspace I gave it. Basically, I have no idea what your problem is, coz it worked fine for me. could it be a problem with the disk, rather than the files? Don't really know. Ideas anyone? Sorry I can't be more help. Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 19:50:38 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505101811.AA06976@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Clarissa To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 95 19:11:13 BST In-Reply-To: <9505101146.AA15642@pop>; from "CEO InfiniteLoop" at May 10, 95 12:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 233 Lines: 21 > > > Quick tell me the URL. > > NOW. > > > I want to know it!!!!!! > > Campbell. You've twisted my arm - give this a try: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Contrib/Entertainment/Clarissa/ Don't get too excited though! -Andrew From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 20:03:04 1995 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 19:52:06 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8391@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Games ideas X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 445 Lines: 14 Are there any novel games ideas left? I remember writing a Basic Speccy game once, called Spider Diner. You had eaten all the flying type insects, so only ground based ones were available (flying insects were too hard to program in Basic!) The Spider had to get the insects before they got away by scrambling to a ooint on the web above it and lowering itself down on a thread as the insect came underneath... Brian -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From imc Wed May 10 20:06:55 1995 Subject: Re: Games ideas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 95 20:06:55 BST In-Reply-To: <8391@bgserv.demon.co.uk>; from "Brian Gaff Sam Dept." at May 10, 95 7:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 466 Lines: 10 On Wed, 10 May 1995 19:52:06 GMT, Brian Gaff Sam Dept. said: > Are there any novel games ideas left? I remember writing a Basic > Speccy game once, called Spider Diner. I once wrote Speccy games in BASIC called "shoot that tank" and "build that tower". They were designed for younger players. In the latter you had to use a crane to pick up boxes and build them into a tower, remembering to move the counterweight to avoid toppling the crane. Good eh? :-) imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 20:58:21 1995 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 20:06:07 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8403@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: EGGBuM X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 803 Lines: 30 In message <2FB148CB@courier.lmu.ac.uk> "Doore, Dan [MIS]" writes: > > > > Hi! > > > > > > Just put a game on the ftp site in /pub/sam-coupe/incoming > > > (surprised at that path huh?) > > > > > > Called EGGBuM. > > I downloaded this last night and it don't work! It crashes when the loading > screen comes > up, the drive light stays on and nowt happens. > > I have a hunch that this could be connected with my problems with .PAK > files, but this > one depacked ok, and I believe that .PAK files have some sort of > CRC/Checksum so > I don't think the .PAK files are at fault so what's going on? > > Roll on sam PKZIP! > > Dan Doore. > > Have you got Pro-Dos? Does this work... There is a problem on some SAMs that nobody seems to have explained fully yet. Brian -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 23:11:58 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505102208.AA10387@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Games ideas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 10 May 95 23:08:46 BST In-Reply-To: <8391@bgserv.demon.co.uk>; from "Brian Gaff Sam Dept." at May 10, 95 7:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 21 > > Are there any novel games ideas left? I remember writing a Basic > Speccy game once, called Spider Diner. You had eaten all the > flying type insects, so only ground based ones were available > (flying insects were too hard to program in Basic!) The Spider > had to get the insects before they got away by scrambling to a > ooint on the web above it and lowering itself down on a thread > as the insect came underneath... > > > Brian > I once wrote a 'game' that tested the quality of various spiders web design - you drew a web on Flash!, and my program threw a load of flies at it and saw how many stuck per yard of silk used. Hours of fun. -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 10 23:31:21 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 23:31:13 +0100 Message-Id: <13028.9505102231@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games ideas X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 160 Lines: 6 Spider Diners? Spider Web Proficiency Tests? Tower Builders? My own contributions include a Betting Game and many others. My god we've made some crap. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 09:17:07 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: EGGBuM Date: Thu, 11 May 95 09:15:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB23823@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 33 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 793 Lines: 33 > > I downloaded this last night and it don't work! It crashes when the > loading > > screen comes > > up, the drive light stays on and nowt happens. > > > > I have a hunch that this could be connected with my problems with .PAK > > files, but this > > one depacked ok, and I believe that .PAK files have some sort of > > CRC/Checksum so > > I don't think the .PAK files are at fault so what's going on? > > > > Roll on sam PKZIP! > > > > Dan Doore. > > > > > Have you got Pro-Dos? Does this work... There is a problem on > some SAMs that nobody seems to have explained fully yet. Yep, that works (as far as I can tell anyway) What's this problem then? I'll try to download EGGBuM again and use a different machine, different disc etc. Dan Doore > Brian > -- > Brian Gaff Sam Dept. > From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 09:36:21 1995 Message-Id: <9505110834.AA03154@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: Games ideas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 95 10:34:17 METDST In-Reply-To: <13028.9505102231@sun.aston.ac.uk>; from "goringgn" at May 10, 95 11:31 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 978 Lines: 20 So we are all writing our `Game portfolios' eh - well here my tuppence. In 1983 - many moons ago a friend and I coded our first Machine code game and it was even released by Blaby - remember them! It was called Whirlwind - in fact I would be interested in knowing if anyone ever bought it. In 1984 we went our separate ways (blub), last time I heard from him he was doing business work in COBOL - poor chap. Various projects followed including a 16K Jetset Willy clone in a hospital called The General and a version of Pacman written in HiSoft Pascal. My only real `original' game was a puzzle game called Spherical - based on the marbles-the-holes game of solitare, all done in the ever so popular format of the times : isometric 3D. Pity I never got to finishing this (University life beckoned!), but I did get a nice demo version done. Maybe one day I'll convert it to the SAM. Must finish my Driver Application first though Well back to Fortran 77 programming Allan -- From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 09:45:52 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Games ideas Date: Thu, 11 May 95 09:42:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB23E82@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 13 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 294 Lines: 13 > Spider Diners? Spider Web Proficiency Tests? Tower Builders? > My own contributions include a Betting Game and many others. > > My god we've made some crap. Crap is in the eye of the beholder, Go and download ban_game.zip from nvg for my offerings (esp. Dead Ducks :)) ) Dan. > Graham > From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 10:21:05 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 11 May 95 10:13:09 BST Message-Id: <7860.9505110913@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games ideas Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 838 Lines: 26 > > Spider Diners? Spider Web Proficiency Tests? Tower Builders? > > My own contributions include a Betting Game and many others. > > > > My god we've made some crap. > > Crap is in the eye of the beholder, Go and download ban_game.zip from nvg > for my offerings (esp. Dead Ducks :)) ) > > Dan. > > > Graham > > > I have, and although it took some beating :) I reckon I have probably written some worse stuff. I am just trying to think of what... Aha! My spectrum stuff! MUM AMOK - Absolutley dire. Terrible. Crap. Your mum, (a large O) chased you, (a small o) around your house. Game play consisted of just getting her into a position she could not escape from. Awful. Beat that (although, you are not allowed to submit that terrible laser game, in my opinion THAT game should be banned before it corrupts anyone else). Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 10:45:39 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505110942.AA22135@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 95 10:42:07 BST In-Reply-To: <15773.9505091551@sun.aston.ac.uk>; from "goringgn" at May 9, 95 4:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 182 Lines: 6 What does this white button (about the size of the return bar) with an arrow on it do on this mac? It's on its own above the number keys.... pressing it seems to do nowt. -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 11:02:15 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Games ideas Date: Thu, 11 May 95 10:59:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB25099@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 46 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1426 Lines: 46 > I have, and although it took some beating :) I reckon I have probably written > some worse stuff. I am just trying to think of what... > > Aha! My spectrum stuff! > > MUM AMOK - Absolutley dire. Terrible. Crap. Your mum, (a large O) chased you, > (a small o) around your house. Game play consisted of just getting her into > a position she could not escape from. Awful. Beat that (although, you are not > allowed to submit that terrible laser game, in my opinion THAT game should be > banned before it corrupts anyone else). Ah! that line game, some poor pod put it in Format and whithin the month there were thousands of varients in circulation (mine included :) ) that game is almost virulant.... Right, possibly the most poor and dire game I have ever written has to be a program called 'Spell Master' (no relation to any Fred product) which I wrote to try and improve my god-awful spelling. When I was writing it I came accross a problem, how do you tell the user what word they have to spell, without giving away the spelling? Solution? Print the word for 2 seconds on screen and the overprint a line of asterisks before the input line. Sad but true. I swear my mam used to put something in my tea, I had no control over anything ;) Actually, I quite fancy making a disc of the worst, drossy programs that we have all written at some time or another, just for the humour factor. Dan. > Graham > From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 11:14:19 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: New uploads.. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:03:42 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 563 Lines: 17 Hi everyone... I've just uploaded a couple of things I never finished ... That's ZUB (which was ditched due to bugs inherent in the compressor I was using), and E-Demo 1, which was corrupted on the disc by a bad drive... Enjoy... Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From imc Thu May 11 11:25:45 1995 Subject: Re: Games ideas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:25:45 BST In-Reply-To: <2FB25099@courier.lmu.ac.uk>; from "Doore, Dan [MIS]" at May 11, 95 10:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1661 Lines: 40 On Thu, 11 May 95 10:59:00 PDT, Doore, Dan [MIS] said: > Actually, I quite fancy making a disc of the worst, drossy programs that we > have > all written at some time or another, just for the humour factor. I imagine I have several megs of them on tape somewhere, dating between about 1982 and 1986... I wrote a complete set of TV games (i.e., "tennis", "squash" and "hockey" - you know, the blip-blip kind with bats that move up and down) but unfortunately if I remember correctly they used that IN thing that stopped working when the issue 3 speccy came out. A couple of my crap games are on Syncytium. I couldn't believe Dave wanted to put them on there! :-) I wrote one or two "good" ones as well (such as Rockfall). One of them is a snooker program, but unfortunately I never completed it. It does do 2-player snooker pretty well though. I went through a phase of writing board game clones. I did an Overboard (bet none of you has heard of it) and a Stay Alive (you know, the one with marbles that drop through holes in the board). I wrote a Tessellator. It is a program that allows you to design a shape by starting with a rectangle and pulling the sides out of shape. The clever thing about this was that whatever shape you ended up with it always tessellated (i.e., you could tile the plane with it). I wrote a track designer for Chequered Flag and replaced one of the circuits with the Birmingham SuperPrix. :-) I mentioned my Rubik's Cube program, but no one seemed interested... Etc etc... (whereas my brother hardly programmed anything before he got his Sam, so most of his crap games are Sam-based rather than Speccy-based). imc From imc Thu May 11 11:27:54 1995 Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:27:54 BST In-Reply-To: <9505110942.AA22135@central.surrey.ac.uk>; from "Mr Andrew M Gale" at May 11, 95 10:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 405 Lines: 10 On Thu, 11 May 95 10:42:07 BST, Mr Andrew M Gale said: > What does this white button (about the size of the return bar) > with an arrow on it do on this mac? It's on its own above the number > keys.... pressing it seems to do nowt. Are you referring to the "on" switch (it has a small triangle on it)? I take it that the Mac isn't yours and that it was already switched on when you found it... imc From imc Thu May 11 11:28:37 1995 Subject: Re: Games ideas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:28:37 BST In-Reply-To: <9505102208.AA10387@central.surrey.ac.uk>; from "Mr Andrew M Gale" at May 10, 95 11:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 324 Lines: 9 On Wed, 10 May 95 23:08:46 BST, Mr Andrew M Gale said: > I once wrote a 'game' that tested the quality of various spiders > web design - you drew a web on Flash!, and my program threw a load > of flies at it and saw how many stuck per yard of silk used. Hours > of fun. That sounds interesting. What kind of web won? imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 11:33:43 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:23:23 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505110942.AA22135@central.surrey.ac.uk> from "Mr Andrew M Gale" at May 11, 95 10:42:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 14 > What does this white button (about the size of the return bar) > with an arrow on it do on this mac? It's on its own above the number > keys.... pressing it seems to do nowt. I think if you press it with something it turns the machine off (or on?) and if you press it with a number it ejects the disk from that drive??? Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 11:37:13 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <9199.9505111017@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: New uploads.. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:17:16 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 11, 95 11:03:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 141 Lines: 7 To Quote Simon Cooke : > Hi everyone... > I've just uploaded a couple of things I never finished ... But are they finished now? Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 11:39:21 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505111034.AA07908@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 12:34:50 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 11, 95 11:23:23 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 640 Lines: 23 > > > What does this white button (about the size of the return bar) > > with an arrow on it do on this mac? It's on its own above the number > > keys.... pressing it seems to do nowt. > > I think if you press it with something it turns the machine off (or on?) On. > and if you press it with a number it ejects the disk from that drive??? Well..the only way to eject a disc from the drive on a MAC is to draaaaaaag that disc-icon on your screen down to the trashcan. Obvious eh? > > Simon -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 11:41:23 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:37:04 BST Message-Id: <8072.9505111037@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: New uploads.. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 385 Lines: 19 > Hi everyone... > > I've just uploaded a couple of things I never finished ... > > That's ZUB (which was ditched due to bugs inherent in the compressor I > was using), and E-Demo 1, which was corrupted on the disc by a bad > drive... > > Enjoy... > > Simon Sorry, but this made me laugh. Basically, "Here's some stuff that I think is a bit crap - enjoy" :) Love it, Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 11:44:59 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:41:07 BST Message-Id: <8083.9505111041@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games ideas Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1557 Lines: 46 > > I have, and although it took some beating :) I reckon I have probably > written > > some worse stuff. I am just trying to think of what... > > > > Aha! My spectrum stuff! > > > > MUM AMOK - Absolutley dire. Terrible. Crap. Your mum, (a large O) chased > you, > > (a small o) around your house. Game play consisted of just getting her > into > > a position she could not escape from. Awful. Beat that (although, you are > not > > allowed to submit that terrible laser game, in my opinion THAT game should > be > > banned before it corrupts anyone else). > > Ah! that line game, some poor pod put it in Format and whithin the month > there were > thousands of varients in circulation (mine included :) ) that game is almost > virulant.... > > Right, possibly the most poor and dire game I have ever written has to be a > program > called 'Spell Master' (no relation to any Fred product) which I wrote to try > and improve > my god-awful spelling. When I was writing it I came accross a problem, how > do you tell > the user what word they have to spell, without giving away the spelling? > Solution? Print the word for 2 seconds on screen and the overprint a line > of asterisks > before the input line. > > Sad but true. > > I swear my mam used to put something in my tea, I had no control over > anything ;) > > Actually, I quite fancy making a disc of the worst, drossy programs that we > have > all written at some time or another, just for the humour factor. You have, It's called The Double. :) :) :) :) Ahahahahahaha! Graham From imc Thu May 11 11:51:42 1995 Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:51:42 BST In-Reply-To: <9505111034.AA07908@wwwlab.cern.ch>; from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 11, 95 12:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 682 Lines: 14 On Thu, 11 May 1995 12:34:50 +0200 (MET DST), Frode Tenneboe said: > Well..the only way to eject a disc from the drive on a MAC is to > draaaaaaag that disc-icon on your screen down to the trashcan. > Obvious eh? No, it's not obvious, and it's not the only way. For example, last time I used a mac I was ingenious enough to discover an "eject disk" option on the specials menu (or some such menu anyway). So I did. The problem was that even though the mac knew I had ejected the disk it still thought the disk was there. So when I shutdown the mac it asked me to put the disk back in for the sole purpose of ejecting it back out again. Such a user-friendly interface!... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 12:03:58 1995 Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 13:00:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ben Versteeg Subject: Re: Games ideas In-Reply-To: <9505111028.AA13930@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 11, 95 12:28:38 pm To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <199505111100.NAA07273@charm.il.ft.hse.nl> X-Envelope-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.NO X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 45 Lines: 3 Hello from Holland ! Ben@charm.il.ft.hse.nl From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 12:09:46 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:58:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: Games ideas" (May 11, 12:25pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games ideas Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 794 Lines: 25 On May 11, 12:25pm in "Re: Games ideas", you warbled: ] I went through a phase of writing board game clones. I did an Overboard ] (bet none of you has heard of it) and a Stay Alive (you know, the one with ] marbles that drop through holes in the board). Octago!!!! My first (and last) spectrum game in Machine Code. It died when I couldn't be bothered to work out any AI routines :) My _first_ spectrum game was in BASIC and it was supposed to play like Donkey Kong (using the graphics characters, of course :-)), but I didn't really understand how to write stuff then, so everything was done with IF statements... IF Y<8 AND X=28 AND INKEY$="k" THEN LET Y=Y+1.... to go up a ladder at position 8... SLOW wasn't quite the word. The Spaghetti Monster, it was called. True class. Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 12:09:57 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: New uploads.. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 12:07:13 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9199.9505111017@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> from "Tim Paveley" at May 11, 95 11:17:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 669 Lines: 20 > To Quote Simon Cooke : > > Hi everyone... > > I've just uploaded a couple of things I never finished ... > > But are they finished now? > > Tim ....@/ As I said, I've just uploaded a couple of things I never finished :) They /may/ be finished at some point in the future, but don't hold your breath. ZUB is the most likely contender. Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 12:10:24 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:57:41 BST Message-Id: <2986.9505111057@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: showreport.html Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 590 Lines: 18 Having used a mac many a time for WP: THe 'white button' can have several purposes On old-ish macs, this button pressed with control and command, will reset the mac. On new macs, the button will switch the mac on, and shutdown the mac when pressed when its on. As for disks, there is an eject option, and sometimes it will ask you to insert the disk - (ie at a shutdown) just so it can update its memory with whats going. Simply press command and `.` to get rid of the message and it will then continue, knowing the disk isnt in the drive, so it will get rid of its icon. Colin P. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 12:16:17 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Games ideas Date: Thu, 11 May 95 12:02:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB25F62@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 11 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 126 Lines: 11 > You have, It's called The Double. :) :) :) :) And what the hell is 'The Double' ??? Dan. > Ahahahahahaha! > > Graham > From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 13:02:22 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 11 May 95 13:03:50 BST Message-Id: <17793.9505111203@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Spectrum 128K Music Conversion? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 510 Lines: 13 Can anybody give me details about how this is done. Simon once said he would, but that was way back in the mists of time... (ooeeeoooo) So, how do I search out the music data? I assume I look for part of the speccy program outputting to the 128k sound ports (what are they) and then scan around that area. And what is this Proto-Music player? Something that interprets the output from the music routine and turns it into SAM sound signals? I dunno. It all sounds a bit hairy, but I wanna have a go. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 13:18:39 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 11 May 95 13:00:12 BST Message-Id: <17780.9505111200@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games ideas Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 269 Lines: 16 > > You have, It's called The Double. :) :) :) :) > > And what the hell is 'The Double' ??? > > Dan. > > > Ahahahahahaha! > > > > Graham > > > It's how Derek Morgan bills your two PD Disks. Sorry if I offended, but the line game is on one of the disks... Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 13:52:29 1995 Message-Id: <16493.199505111206@rockall.cent.gla.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 13:06:51 +0100 X-Sender: 9264201e@pop-server.cent.gla.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk (Strongbow) Subject: Re: showreport.html X-Mailer: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1293 Lines: 29 >On Thu, 11 May 1995 12:34:50 +0200 (MET DST), Frode Tenneboe said: >> Well..the only way to eject a disc from the drive on a MAC is to >> draaaaaaag that disc-icon on your screen down to the trashcan. >> Obvious eh? > >No, it's not obvious, and it's not the only way. For example, last time I >used a mac I was ingenious enough to discover an "eject disk" option on the >specials menu (or some such menu anyway). So I did. The problem was that >even though the mac knew I had ejected the disk it still thought the disk >was there. So when I shutdown the mac it asked me to put the disk back in >for the sole purpose of ejecting it back out again. Such a user-friendly >interface!... > >imc > mmm. I bloody hate macs. Only having the one button (instead of having two or a third "virtual" button) is weird, their screens are tiny, and their desktop isn't Windows/X-Windows. Will Easson 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk "A life spent making mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing." G.B. Shaw "Intelligence is not the ability to make no mistakes, but to see how to make them good." "Not living is the sin... never ever regret the things you have done; only the things you haven't" S. Fry I have a web page which currently resides at... http://www.gla.ac.uk/Clubs/GUVZS/guvzs.html From imc Thu May 11 13:55:24 1995 Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 95 13:55:24 BST In-Reply-To: <16493.199505111206@rockall.cent.gla.ac.uk>; from "Strongbow" at May 11, 95 1:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 391 Lines: 11 On Thu, 11 May 1995 13:06:51 +0100, Strongbow said: > mmm. I bloody hate macs. Only having the one button (instead of having two > or a third "virtual" button) is weird, their screens are tiny, and their > desktop isn't Windows/X-Windows. Also, you can't do anything remarkably simple like typing "dir" into a command window... All mice should have three buttons, incidentally. :-) imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 15:39:37 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: showreport.html Date: Thu, 11 May 95 13:58:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB28F55@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 14 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 374 Lines: 14 > mmm. I bloody hate macs. Only having the one button (instead of having two > or a third "virtual" button) is weird, their screens are tiny, and their > desktop isn't Windows/X-Windows. That's because Macs were there first; you should be saying why Windows/X-Windows isn't System 7 :) As for the tiny screens, that depends on how tight you are... Dan. > Will Easson From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 15:49:11 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Games ideas Date: Thu, 11 May 95 13:42:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB28F06@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 24 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 350 Lines: 24 > > > You have, It's called The Double. :) :) :) :) > > > > And what the hell is 'The Double' ??? > > > > Dan. > > > > > Ahahahahahaha! > > > > > > Graham > > > > > > > It's how Derek Morgan bills your two PD Disks. Sorry if I offended, but the > line game is on one of the disks... Ahahahaha! And what's wrong with the line game anyway? ;) D. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 11 17:12:19 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 17:06:18 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <2986.9505111057@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> from "Colin G Piggot" at May 11, 95 11:57:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 889 Lines: 19 > Having used a mac many a time for WP: > As for disks, there is an eject option, and sometimes it will ask you > to insert the disk - (ie at a shutdown) just so it can update its memory > with whats going. Simply press command and `.` to get rid of the message > and it will then continue, knowing the disk isnt in the drive, so it will > get rid of its icon. there is of course, another way.. option or cntrl E on some, or option 1, cntrl 1 or something (the 1 is the drive number).. Of course, there is the old trusty standby -- the paperclip method... Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 07:08:23 1995 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 11 May 95 00:45:48 +0000 Subject: How Much? Message-Id: Organization: CC-NET BBS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1648 Lines: 42 On (09 May 95) simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk wrote to All... s > From: Simon Cooke s > Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 12:08:32 +0100 (BST) s > > BTW Simon do you still want a copy of Hitech C? s > Erm... I'd say yes, but only if your copy has the source code for the s > compiler et al... I don't think you'll get HITECH to release the C source to their actual z80 code-generator (which is the bit you're after really) as it's not in their best intrest to do so as it'd allow easy porting to other non-z80 platforms which would damage their z80 embeded controller cross-compiler sales... It might be possible to buy a licsence from them to use their source code to produce a sam-compiler but I doubt it'd be worth the costs.... If you want a contact fqdn for Hitech down-under I have it:-) I feel the only sensible way to handle the C situation is to re-compile the C.COM (the source is provided) to use a handwritten set of sam-native compatable support routines instead of the CP/M LIBC.LIB and link it at whatever address required (I'm assuming that Sam-native mode doesn't care what IY & IX do when interupts are enabled via the ROM...) And just cross-compile for native mode from ProDos:-) BTW exactly how was your lbr from oak corrupted? are you sure it's not the fact that the source archives were in that orrible .HUF format? If that's all then use DEHUFF.COM from the binaries lbr archive:-) Johnathan. ... If you save the world too often, it begins to expect it. -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307.9 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 10:27:10 1995 From: slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Message-Id: <9505120722.AA00799@namu26.gwdg.de> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Cc: slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Subject: EGGBuM Date: Fri, 12 May 95 09:22:32 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 130 Lines: 7 Hi , EGGBuM looks sa a clone of my game SuperBall written in 1992 . Slawek. P.S. I don't have Games Master , I write in MC ... From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 10:54:59 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: EGGBuM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 10:41:11 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9505120722.AA00799@namu26.gwdg.de> from "slawek@namu01.gwdg.de" at May 12, 95 09:22:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 534 Lines: 17 > Hi , > EGGBuM looks sa a clone of my game SuperBall written in 1992 . > > Slawek. Isn't super ball the one that Dave Ledbury was trying to sell, but nobody will get in touch with him over it? hmmm... Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 11:15:14 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <1845.9505120937@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: EGGBuM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 10:37:06 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505120722.AA00799@namu26.gwdg.de> from "slawek@namu01.gwdg.de" at May 12, 95 09:22:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 354 Lines: 14 To Quote slawek@namu01.gwdg.de : > Hi , > EGGBuM looks sa a clone of my game SuperBall written in 1992 . > Slawek. Urk! Unintentional I promise you, I must confess that I've never Heard of SuperBall, did it ever get released anywhere? As I said, we based it on an old Amstrad PD game called Croco Magneto. Tim ....@/ Ps- is it a worthy clone though? From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 11:34:07 1995 Message-Id: From: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) Subject: Re: Spectrum 128K Music Conversion? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:27:47 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <17793.9505111203@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "goringgn" at May 11, 95 01:03:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1732 Lines: 35 > Can anybody give me details about how this is done. Simon once said he > would, but that was way back in the mists of time... (ooeeeoooo) > > So, how do I search out the music data? I assume I look for part of the > speccy program outputting to the 128k sound ports (what are they) and then > scan around that area. > > And what is this Proto-Music player? Something that interprets the output > from the music routine and turns it into SAM sound signals? I dunno. Yep, it is that :) It was my botched first attempt, before I squiggled together a better one. > It all sounds a bit hairy, but I wanna have a go. Right.. the way I did most of the music grabbing was to load in the program using SC_SPECLONE. I'd nmi out of it, then set to work using INSTR on a load of MEM$ data, trying to find the LD BC,soundchip, /OR/ a LD B,191 /OR/ LD B,&FD /OR/ an OTDR. Usually worked, and I'd reverse engineer it all from there. Looking through the code for the interrupt routines tended to reveal where to hack the music code out from, and what to call to get it going. Then, quickly replace all the OUT instructions to the soundchip with equivalents to poke them into a 16 byte music buffer in my converter code, with a bit at the end to call the play-out routine (usually done using an RST x)... and bob's your uncle. I'll post up my source (or perhaps stefan can put up his stereo based one) Simon -- +- Email:Simon.Cooke@umist.ac.uk ---- Fidonet: 2:250/124.2 (Simon Cooke) ----+ | Snail:1 Dovey Close, Astley, Tyldesley, Manchester, M29 7NP, UK | | Tel: +44 1942 886084 Fax: +44 1942 886084 (ring voice first to confirm!) | +- WWW: http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc -------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 11:44:16 1995 Message-Id: <20940.199505121026@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:26:31 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Johnathan Taylor" at May 11, 95 00:45:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 946 Lines: 21 > > I don't think you'll get HITECH to release the C source to their actual > z80 code-generator (which is the bit you're after really) as it's not in their > best intrest to do so as it'd allow easy porting to other non-z80 platforms > which would damage their z80 embeded controller cross-compiler sales... > > It might be possible to buy a licsence from them to use their source code to > produce a sam-compiler but I doubt it'd be worth the costs.... > If we all chipped in, we might be able to scrape enough together. How about asking them anyway, and seeing how much it would be? -- William Easson E-Mail: 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Snail Mail (term): 12, Southpark Terrace, Glasgow G12 8LG, Scotland, UK. Snail Mail (home): 24, Buxton Old Road, Disley, Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Snail Mail (work): Glasgow Vet School, Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, UK. "A life spent making many mistakes is better than a life spent doing nothing" From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 11:54:55 1995 From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Subject: Re: Games ideas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 09:59:52 +0100 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: <9505111028.AA13930@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 11, 95 12:28:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Message-Id: <9505120900.aa26856@nienna.ee.surrey.ac.uk.> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 402 Lines: 14 > > On Wed, 10 May 95 23:08:46 BST, Mr Andrew M Gale said: > > I once wrote a 'game' that tested the quality of various spiders > > web design - you drew a web on Flash!, and my program threw a load > > of flies at it and saw how many stuck per yard of silk used. Hours > > of fun. > > That sounds interesting. What kind of web won? > > imc Funnily enough, a black screen was quite effective... From imc Fri May 12 12:31:38 1995 Subject: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 95 12:31:38 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Johnathan Taylor" at May 11, 95 12:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1629 Lines: 33 On 11 May 95 00:45:48 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: > It might be possible to buy a licsence from them to use their source code to ^^ > produce a sam-compiler but I doubt it'd be worth the costs.... I suppose if you can't decide whether to write s or c a suitable solution is to put both in. :-) Anyway, I'm just thinking (rambling on and on more like, but anyway)... Clearly it would be useful to have a Sam compiler that can produce long programs and/or data. How would one go about that? My thinking is that we would end up with something even more complicated than the MSDOS C compiler. That is, we would need near pointers, far pointers and huge pointers, and different memory models to cope - for instance, the small model which always uses near pointers to produce efficient programs that fit in one or two pages, or the huge memory model which always uses far pointers for routines and huge pointers for data. We would also possibly need a way to package everything in segments of 16K so that within each segment we can use only near pointers. In any memory model apart from small, we might have to keep the program and data in separate sections of the memory map. Presumably the program would be in CD and the data in B or AB, depending on whether the ROM is required [it is required for safe NMI operation, unless you want to put the program in AB, which might make calling the ROM a little difficult...]. That would make a jump to a far pointer rather awkward, but it could be done. So what are the chances of this working or being efficient enough to be any use?... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 12:39:46 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505121136.AA10512@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:36:46 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <20940.199505121026@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> from "William Easson" at May 12, 95 11:26:31 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1899 Lines: 53 > If we all chipped in, we might be able to scrape enough together. How > about asking them anyway, and seeing how much it would be? There has been a whole lot talk about a decent C compiler. We have now got one; I have not tested it and can not talk about its 'decensy' :) Anyway, from my point of view, there are three criterias that has to be filled before I start using a C compiler on the SAM. 1) ANSI compability. With that I mean what is reasonable. I understand that SAM C is ALMOST there. It lacks propper I/O and a decent math library with floats, long ints, doubles etc.? 2) 'inline' (to much HTMLing) assembly. This SAM C handles well??! Also, a monitor, debugger, disassebler, would be usefull. 3) >64(32) KB programs. THIS is the main problems as I can see it. You need a quite effective linker to cope with that. Now, there are LOTS of C grammars for yacc and lex/flex 'out there'. Double compile this, or crosscompile (?) and you have a pretty straight-froward C compiler. An other posibility is to add to the code of ESI - anybody contacted them? But the Hitec compiler seems to be a good start. How about somebody contacting them saying it's for a school project or something? ;) However, even if you have plenty of object-files, this does not mean that you have a executeable. I guess we have to design an object-file-type that allows: o moving functions about to avoid page-boundaris - arbituary placement of functions to optimize for space o direct addressing - correct run-time absolute address needs to be linked in (There are probably more, but right now my mailbox keep filling up) I myself would be more than happy to participate in a project building a super-duper C compiler for the SAM (SAM ++C) ;-) Cheers -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 12:45:55 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505121140.AA10544@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:40:59 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at May 4, 95 11:38:00 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 311 Lines: 11 > produces by the minute), Arnt (hey hey! Nice to see you at last!) and ^^^^ Arnt? Which Arnt? > Graham Goring - 00.41am - 3rd May - 1995 -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From imc Fri May 12 12:51:27 1995 Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 95 12:51:27 BST In-Reply-To: <9505121140.AA10544@wwwlab.cern.ch>; from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 12, 95 1:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 407 Lines: 11 The report said... I also managed to look at all the demos that the coders were working on at that moment, and I was quite impressed with David Zambonini's sine-wave one. Andrew Collier's would have probably been nicer had it worked, but that's life, as they say. I now have information about this. It wasn't Andrew's demo that didn't work - it was by Paul Horridge. So now you know... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 14:20:26 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505121314.AA10734@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: showreport.html To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 15:14:33 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <3551.9505121313@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "goringgn" at May 12, 95 02:13:32 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 243 Lines: 14 > > Arnt? Which Arnt? > THAT Arnt. :) Righto...what the heck was he doing in Glouchester? > > Graham > -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 14:31:00 1995 From: goringgn Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:13:32 +0100 Message-Id: <3551.9505121313@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: showreport.html X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 221 Lines: 11 > > produces by the minute), Arnt (hey hey! Nice to see you at last!) and > ^^^^ > Arnt? Which Arnt? > > > Graham Goring - 00.41am - 3rd May - 1995 > > -Frode THAT Arnt. :) Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 15:02:27 1995 From: goringgn Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:34:01 +0100 Message-Id: <3651.9505121334@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: showreport.html X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 669 Lines: 26 > From frodet@www1.cern.ch Fri May 12 14:32 BST 1995 > Resent-Message-Id: <9505121332.AA16611@sun.aston.ac.uk> > Resent-From: goringgn@charlie.aston.ac.uk > Resent-To: goringgn@www1.cern.ch > Resent-Date: Fri, 12 May 95 14:30:09 +00 > From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) > Subject: Re: showreport.html > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 15:14:33 +0200 (MET DST) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Arnt? Which Arnt? > > THAT Arnt. :) > > Righto...what the heck was he doing in Glouchester? > > > > > Graham > > > > -Frode Nothing spectacular, breathing, looking around a bit. I couldn't really tell :) Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 12 16:10:57 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 15:38:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: goringgn -- "Re: showreport.html" (May 12, 2:34pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: showreport.html Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 298 Lines: 12 On May 12, 2:34pm in "Re: showreport.html", you warbled: ] > > THAT Arnt. :) ] > ] > Righto...what the heck was he doing in Glouchester? ] Nothing spectacular, breathing, looking around a bit. I couldn't really tell :) Sure you're not confusing him with _Arne_? Easy mistake to make :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 14 12:32:13 1995 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 13 May 95 23:02:34 +0000 Subject: How Much? Message-Id: <022_9505141129@centron.com> Organization: CC-NET BBS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1618 Lines: 40 On (12 May 95) 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk wrote to All... 9 > From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> 9 > Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:26:31 +0100 (BST) >> I don't think you'll get HITECH to release the C source to their actual >> z80 code-generator (which is the bit you're after really) as it's not in ... >> It might be possible to buy a licsence from them to use their source code >> to produce a sam-compiler but I doubt it'd be worth the costs.... 9 > If we all chipped in, we might be able to scrape enough together. How 9 > about asking them anyway, and seeing how much it would be? ROFTL! Their comercial ms-dos/unix hosted z80 cross-compilers with standard single user licsense is in the 4 to 7 hunndered AUSSI dollar mark! Buying permission to manipulate their source to produce a comercial compiler for another machine would likely be way to expensive to risk the ammount required! But then again, I could be totaly wrong, afterall they did release the z80 CP/M hosted z80 compiler for free use... so anything is possible! Who in here is the most diplomatic negotiator that has some idea of what the sam architecture needs for its C compiler and can therefore talk as if they also know what they will be aiming for? It ain't me as I'm always to outspoken, and have serious doubts about the feasability of an ANSI C that can easily handle the SAM paging mechanism... TICBW;-) Johnathan. ... I'd love to, but I have to fulfill my destiny. -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307.9 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 14 12:38:29 1995 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 13 May 95 23:20:56 +0000 Subject: Sam C again... Message-Id: <023_9505141129@centron.com> Organization: CC-NET BBS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 6824 Lines: 139 On (12 May 95) Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote to All... I > Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:31:39 +0200 I > From: Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk I > On 11 May 95 00:45:48 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: I > > It might be possible to buy a licsence from them to use their source I > > code to I > ^^ I > > produce a sam-compiler but I doubt it'd be worth the costs.... I > I suppose if you can't decide whether to write s or c a suitable solution I > is to put both in. :-) Quite right! So what's the correct spelling then.... I > Anyway, I'm just thinking (rambling on and on more like, but anyway)... No this is one of your better posts! Many good questions and points:-) I > Clearly it would be useful to have a Sam compiler that can produce long I > programs and/or data. How would one go about that? Ok, I've been using HiTech C 3.09 under Prodos for some time and have studied the coding structure of the programs it generates(My qual's;) 90% of programms contain very little actual op-codes, ok it's compiled and not hand assembled so it's not as tight as is possible if it were coded by an expert by hand but that's a different debate... the results are essentially the same. HiTech linker as provided seperates the binary image into 3 distinct areas, which can be re-assigned in very adaptable ways, The first section in the CP/M image is the op-codes which actually makeup the program, next is the preinitialised data section which normally follows directly after the op-code segment but can be placed anywhere if required! Lastly followed by the un-initialsied data segment which actually contains nothing in the binary image and exists to keep track of data structures that are maintained as the program runs. Assuming suitable stdio routines can be wriiten to talk to the native-mode file system or even a cut-down native mode file-system written to become the stdio lib and it and the program code can be made to fit in say the lower 32k slot, then data-files can be linked into the main code section below 32767 as exported symbols converted into constant declareations and paged in the 32-64k slot as each data area is accessed... So you'd endup with a program and I/O file less than 32K long plus data files upto 32k each load in the required banks and are accessed by specialised banking functions in the Sam-stdlib and the data-files could be catenated if they contained contiguos data which would naturally flow across page boudries when loaded by the native mode LOAD ""CODE operation.. I > My thinking is that we would end up with something even more complicated I > than the MSDOS C compiler. That is, we would need near pointers, far Definatly more complicated than the HiTech CP/M compiler! I > pointers and huge pointers, and different memory models to cope - for I > instance, the small model which always uses near pointers to produce I > efficient programs that fit in one or two pages, or the huge memory model I > which always uses far pointers for routines and huge pointers for data. I reckon trying to force it to allow huge op-code segments would be a killer BICBW, In my experience the largest part of most C programs is the uninitialised data, closely followed by the pre-initialised data and then the stdio+special function lib obj modules then lastly the actual stuff that's directly compiled from the programs C source. I > We I > would also possibly need a way to package everything in segments of 16K so I > that within each segment we can use only near pointers. 16k is a bit restrictive with modern apps and it is likely that the native stdio module itself may need a good part of a 16k segment! I think 32K code + 32k*n of data. I > In any memory model apart from small, we might have to keep the program I > and I > data in separate sections of the memory map. Presumably the program would I > be in CD and the data in B or AB, depending on whether the ROM is required Assuming the HiTech linker or equivilent is used then p-segment seperation is quite easy to manage, thankfully:-) It comes from the HiTech main use of being used in embeded controller apps so it must be able to place some code in ROM and have runtime-data in RAM or at least virtually in RAM, initialised by the ROM startup routine from ROM location into RAM space and an unitilised RAM workspace. I > [it is required for safe NMI operation, unless you want to put the program I > in AB, which might make calling the ROM a little difficult...]. That I > would I > make a jump to a far pointer rather awkward, but it could be done. Assuming the lower 32k is used for code then all the page-zero addresses would be handed over to the C managment modules, which could contain a unconditionaly relocatable function that'll di interupts and load HMPR with LMPR and jump to itself in high ram and then switch in the lower ROM and page in system page in LMPR and make the requested ROM call, and then return back from whence it came (keeping trak of SP all the time ofcourse) I > So what are the chances of this working or being efficient enough to be I > any use?... Well, interpreted SAM/MASTERBASIC has its uses and although compiled C graphics would probably be not worth it, I think that a near ANSI C with some special functions to manipulate banked data would be of serious utilitarian use! where so-called huge data was to be accessed it could be done via a lookup function so that the used variable/array name is a ushort pointer to a propper bank-No&address_in_that_bank internal table. Obviously it wouldn't be easy, if it was it would've been done by now already. to make this near transparent to the programmer the calling of the lookup function which pages the required data about would have to incorperated into the CGEN executable, and if it's going to be based on the HiTech C CGEN.COM then the CGEN section at least will have to be re-coded by hand to reduce it so it'll fit Sams memory map as the CP/M version is >40k in size excluding the non-initialised data! Once complete it'd be similar to the way SamBasic operates ie having the program code in ROM and using the top 32k to page through the data, but instead of being restricted to running the SamBasic m/c prog from ROM we'd be running a compiled program from the same address space looking at a 32k window of true data rather than BASIC tokens/data. Anything is possible, weither any of us have the expertise to do it well is a different matter altogether, I'm certain that I couldn't do it:-( Johnathan. ... I'd like to change the world, but they won't give me the source code. -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307.9 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From imc Sun May 14 12:39:01 1995 Subject: Re: How Much? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 14 May 95 12:39:01 BST In-Reply-To: <022_9505141129@centron.com>; from "Johnathan Taylor" at May 13, 95 11:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 108 Lines: 6 On 13 May 95 23:02:34 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: > ROFTL! Rolling on floor tickled, laughing? ;-) imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 10:15:18 1995 From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 10:11:02 +0100 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: <023_9505141129@centron.com> from "Johnathan Taylor" at May 13, 95 11:20:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Message-Id: <9505150911.aa10936@almaren.ee.surrey.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 370 Lines: 14 > I > > It might be possible to buy a licsence from them to use their source > I > > code to > > I > I suppose if you can't decide whether to write s or c a suitable solution > I > is to put both in. :-) > > Quite right! So what's the correct spelling then.... > Licence - but at least you've been a bit more novel than the regular licence/license muddle! -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 11:07:14 1995 From: mcscs3cgm@vaxd.dct.ac.uk Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 11:04:05 GMT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <0099063C.0ECA0A89.62@vaxd.dct.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sam C again... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 219 Lines: 7 I've had a few people mention the innumerable bugs in SAM C, unfortunately, no-one has actually revealed what they are! If these bugs do exist, let me know please so something can be done about them! Colin Macdonald From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 11:47:31 1995 Message-Id: <18180.9505151017@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 11:17:10 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: <9505150911.aa10936@almaren.ee.surrey.ac.uk> from "ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk" at May 15, 95 10:11:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 467 Lines: 16 > > I > > It might be possible to buy a licsence from them to use their source > > Quite right! So what's the correct spelling then.... My girlfriend says (she's a lawyer so she should know) that in UK English, licence is a noun, as in: "'Ello, I would like to purchase a fish license please." and license is a verb, as in: "Unisys have decided to license LZ compression to public domain software owners, for use in GIF reading and writing code only." /; from "Johnathan Taylor" at May 13, 95 11:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 4514 Lines: 105 On 13 May 95 23:20:56 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: > HiTech linker as provided seperates the binary image into 3 distinct > areas, which can be re-assigned in very adaptable ways Then it is the same as most linkers. An object file contains... - a text segment (containing machine code; it might also contain the contents of literal strings as in puts("hello world");; compilers differ about this); - a data segment (containing initialised variables), and - a bss segment (containing uninitialised variables). The bss segment is not written on disk but its size is stored in the header of the object file. > I reckon trying to force it to allow huge op-code segments would be a killer > BICBW, In my experience the largest part of most C programs is the > uninitialised data, closely followed by the pre-initialised data and then the > stdio+special function lib obj modules then lastly the actual stuff that's > directly compiled from the programs C source. What is BICBW? Anyway, I do not think you should limit the text segment to 32K, even if all the programs you have found are less than that. Here are some sparc programs that we might want to emulate... tex: text=212992 data=8192 bss=3573272 gzip: text=57344 data=8192 bss=325304 zip: text=73728 data=8192 bss=305296 ccom: text=286720 data=57344 bss=67744 cc1: text=1310720 data=24576 bss=65184 (ccom is the compilation part of cc; cc1 is the compilation part of gcc). Notice in particular that the compilers have huge text segments and relatively small bss segments. I presume most of their memory is obtained via malloc. On the other hand, tex reserves all its space in the bss and does not use malloc at all. Now: could you fit all these programs in a 32K text segment?... This is why there should be different memory models. The most common model for small programs is for programs whose _total_ memory requirements are less than 32K. These programs don't need to page at all. > I > We > I > would also possibly need a way to package everything in segments of 16K so > I > that within each segment we can use only near pointers. > 16k is a bit restrictive with modern apps and it is likely that the native > stdio module itself may need a good part of a 16k segment! I think 32K code + > 32k*n of data. If your segments [and here I'm not talking about text, data and bss - perhaps I should call them subsegments] are only 16K then it is easier to move smoothly from one subsegment to the next seeing as you can have two of them in memory at once. You may not need to have subsegments at all if you think you can manage without. You had better be careful though about code and data that crosses the 32K boundary. > Assuming the lower 32k is used for code then all the page-zero addresses would > be handed over to the C managment modules, which could contain a unconditionaly > relocatable function that'll di interupts and load HMPR with LMPR and jump to > itself in high ram and then switch in the lower ROM and page in system page > in LMPR and make the requested ROM call, and then return back from whence it > came (keeping trak of SP all the time ofcourse) OK... > where so-called huge data was to be accessed it could be done via a lookup > function so that the used variable/array name is a ushort pointer to a propper > bank-No&address_in_that_bank internal table. How do you mean? I don't think this would work anyway. Consider... static char x[70000]; char *p; long i; p=x; for(i=70000;i-->0;p++[0]='*'); Here p has to be a huge pointer. - A near pointer is a 16-bit number pointing somewhere within the current memory map. - a far pointer is a 16-bit number in the range 8000-BFFF plus a page number. To look it up you have to page in the required page and then follow the address. - a huge pointer is the same as a far pointer but it behaves differently in arithmetic operations. A far pointer is never checked for range, but a huge pointer is always checked. If it ends up outside the range 8000-BFFF then the page number is adjusted accordingly. I don't think lookups will help you. Similarly, in static int i[50000]; int j,k; j=i[k]; the number sizeof(int)*k has to be added to the address of i in the manner of a huge pointer. How were you planning to use a table? Looking up far pointers will be a bit inefficient, so we will have to rely on an optimiser to optimise out page changes whenever possible. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 12:20:55 1995 From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 12:16:56 +0100 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: <18180.9505151017@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> from "Mr Keith Turner" at May 15, 95 11:17:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Message-Id: <9505151117.aa19075@valar.ee.surrey.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 426 Lines: 15 > > > > > I > > It might be possible to buy a licsence from them to use their source > > > > Quite right! So what's the correct spelling then.... > > My girlfriend says (she's a lawyer so she should know) that in UK > English, licence is a noun Yes, and if you can't figure out which to use then try replacing the word with advise or advice and see which sounds right. The same goes for practise and practice etc. -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 12:42:54 1995 Message-Id: <30306.9505151105@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 12:05:28 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: <18180.9505151017@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> from "Mr Keith Turner" at May 15, 95 11:17:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 243 Lines: 10 > My girlfriend says (she's a lawyer so she should know) that in UK > English, licence is a noun, as in: > > "'Ello, I would like to purchase a fish license please." ^ Knowing that doesn't mean I get it right though :). / Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 13:04:01 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: <9505151051.AA01588@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 15, 95 12:51:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1890 Lines: 40 imc said: > - A near pointer is a 16-bit number pointing somewhere within the current > memory map. > - a far pointer is a 16-bit number in the range 8000-BFFF plus a page > number. To look it up you have to page in the required page and then > follow the address. > - a huge pointer is the same as a far pointer but it behaves differently > in arithmetic operations. A far pointer is never checked for range, > but a huge pointer is always checked. If it ends up outside the range > 8000-BFFF then the page number is adjusted accordingly. Could I appeal for transparently handled pointers? I cringe at the thought of having to put "near", "far" or "huge" qualifiers in my C code, or even having to specify a memory model for my whole executable. Why not maintain 24 or 32 bit logical pointers? It doesn't have to make the code slow. If routines which use pointers keep the current page number in some spare register (even the best compiler's register allocation routines would find it hard to take advantage of all of the Z80 registers), pointer dereferences would just have to do something like EX AF,AF' ; current page number stored in A', F' for temporary flags CP (IX+3) ; required page number in (IX+3) JR Z, PGOK; skip paging routine if current page == required page CALL PAGE ; call paging routine if current page != required page PGOK EX AF,AF' ; restore AF > Looking up far pointers will be a bit inefficient, so we will have to > rely on an optimiser to optimise out page changes whenever possible. In this case, all the optimizer has to do is to check for changes to page register. I'm thinking of a 24-bit register, as this will only limit the compiler to a 16 meg data space per object module, with clever linking. Please excuse my ignorance, if this is a silly idea for some technical reason. /; from "Mr Keith Turner" at May 15, 95 1:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 993 Lines: 23 On Mon, 15 May 1995 13:04:01 +0100 (BST), Mr Keith Turner said: > Could I appeal for transparently handled pointers? I cringe at the > thought of having to put "near", "far" or "huge" qualifiers in my C > code, or even having to specify a memory model for my whole > executable. Sorry. I think for efficiency reasons you will want to have at least two memory models: "very small" and "large". No need to mess around with paging if you are only writing a "hello world" program. > EX AF,AF' ; current page number stored in A', F' for temporary flags > CP (IX+3) ; required page number in (IX+3) > JR Z, PGOK; skip paging routine if current page == required page > CALL PAGE ; call paging routine if current page != required page > PGOK EX AF,AF' ; restore AF Do you know how _long_ that takes? Actually, all that testing and jumping is slower than just doing the paging anyway with a quick LD A,(IX+3) ; this takes 20 T-states by itself! OUT (251),A ; this takes about 16. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 14:09:55 1995 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:02:11 +0200 X400-Originator: Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk X400-Recipients: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/;<9505151302.AA01940@boothp1.ecs.] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: Re: Sam C aga... From: Ian.Collier@uk.ac.oxford.comlab Message-Id: <9505151302.AA01940@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-Reply-To: <25621.9505151204@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sam C again... X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 993 Lines: 23 On Mon, 15 May 1995 13:04:01 +0100 (BST), Mr Keith Turner said: > Could I appeal for transparently handled pointers? I cringe at the > thought of having to put "near", "far" or "huge" qualifiers in my C > code, or even having to specify a memory model for my whole > executable. Sorry. I think for efficiency reasons you will want to have at least two memory models: "very small" and "large". No need to mess around with paging if you are only writing a "hello world" program. > EX AF,AF' ; current page number stored in A', F' for temporary flags > CP (IX+3) ; required page number in (IX+3) > JR Z, PGOK; skip paging routine if current page == required page > CALL PAGE ; call paging routine if current page != required page > PGOK EX AF,AF' ; restore AF Do you know how _long_ that takes? Actually, all that testing and jumping is slower than just doing the paging anyway with a quick LD A,(IX+3) ; this takes 20 T-states by itself! OUT (251),A ; this takes about 16. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 14:43:15 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505151332.AA12767@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 95 14:32:16 BST In-Reply-To: <9505151302.AA01940@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk>; from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 15, 95 3:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 301 Lines: 12 > > Sorry. I think for efficiency reasons you will want to have at least > two memory models: "very small" and "large". No need to mess around > with paging if you are only writing a "hello world" program. > imc Why not write an interpreted C for SAM? That'd solve all our paging problems. -AG From imc Mon May 15 14:48:23 1995 Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 95 14:48:23 BST In-Reply-To: <9505151332.AA12767@central.surrey.ac.uk>; from "Mr Andrew M Gale" at May 15, 95 2:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 271 Lines: 8 On Mon, 15 May 95 14:32:16 BST, Mr Andrew M Gale said: > Why not write an interpreted C for SAM? That'd solve all our paging > problems. Sure. Why not. The ease of assembly language programming coupled with the speed of BASIC. I'm sure it will be a smash hit... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 15:17:36 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Mars Bar) Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 14:58:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: ee31ag -- "Re: Sam C again..." (May 15, 2:32pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam C again... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 277 Lines: 9 On May 15, 2:32pm in "Re: Sam C again...", you warbled: ] Why not write an interpreted C for SAM? That'd solve all our paging ] problems. Because it would be horrendously slow, you'd have to have a run-time-only version, and everyone would laugh at you for using it. Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 15:27:31 1995 From: slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Message-Id: <9505151408.AA09676@namu01.gwdg.de> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Cc: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke), slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Subject: Re: EGGBuM In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 12 May 95 10:41:11 BST." Date: Mon, 15 May 95 16:08:16 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 32 Lines: 3 I think , that is it . Slawek. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 15:38:19 1995 Message-Id: <30250.9505151428@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:28:53 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: <9505151302.AA01940@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 15, 95 03:02:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1604 Lines: 40 > On Mon, 15 May 1995 13:04:01 +0100 (BST), Mr Keith Turner said: > > Could I appeal for transparently handled pointers? I cringe at the > > thought of having to put "near", "far" or "huge" qualifiers in my C > > code, or even having to specify a memory model for my whole > > executable. imc said: > Sorry. I think for efficiency reasons you will want to have at least > two memory models: "very small" and "large". No need to mess around > with paging if you are only writing a "hello world" program. Okay, but please have the compiler use the "large" memory model by default. If we have a C compiler we will want to port other people's code, and it would be sheer hell to have to trace through someone else's code trying to work out what range of values could be assigned to a pointer. And rather than using the MS-DOS obscenity of pointers declared: unsigned char far *bytep; or whatever it is, couldn't the compiler use the "large" model unless you declare-and-define the pointer a member of a small array: unsigned char byteArray[8192]; unsigned char *byteP=*byteArray[0]; which is standard C. The people at ANSI say that in an ANSI compliant compiler, pointer arithmetic is only guaranteed to work if you stay within the bounds of an array (+ a value after the end). Hence this pointer doesn't need to be checked for range if the array is loaded inside a memory page, unless another pointer value or a literal value is assigned to the pointer. That's assuming that the compiler treats pointers as a seperate type internally. Some don't. :( / To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Cc: slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Subject: Re: EGGBuM In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 12 May 95 10:37:06 BST." <1845.9505120937@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 15 May 95 16:13:06 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 195 Lines: 6 I will upload a SuperBall demo to nvg... , but this heve not so good graphics ( I'm only a very tiny coder ... ) Your game is not a worthly clone of SuperBall , but this look similar . Slawek. From imc Mon May 15 16:12:47 1995 Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 95 16:12:47 BST In-Reply-To: <30250.9505151428@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk>; from "Mr Keith Turner" at May 15, 95 3:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1270 Lines: 32 On Mon, 15 May 1995 15:28:53 +0100 (BST), Mr Keith Turner said: > If we have a C compiler we will want to port other people's code, and > it would be sheer hell to have to trace through someone else's code > trying to work out what range of values could be assigned to a > pointer. I think the most important factor will be whether it compiles or not. The tiny memory mosel should be used for all small programs: if your program is not small enough then the compiler will say so and you therefore know that you have to use a larger one. Also, the writer of the program should tell you which model to use. In fact, memory model switching could be via a #pragma directive, in which case you have no problem in compiling someone else's code. > The people at ANSI say that in an ANSI compliant > compiler, pointer arithmetic is only guaranteed to work if you stay > within the bounds of an array (+ a value after the end). Correct. But this is also legal. char x[100]; char *p=&x[0]; char y[70000]; p=&y[0]; putchar(p[60000]); Another problem will be with library routines. If you pass a 16-bit pointer to a routine that expects a 24-bit one, you are in trouble. Perhaps pointer types should be promoted when they are passed. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 16:44:36 1995 From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:35:48 +0100 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Mars Bar" at May 15, 95 02:58:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Message-Id: <9505151436.aa09425@nienna.ee.surrey.ac.uk.> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 620 Lines: 27 > > On May 15, 2:32pm in "Re: Sam C again...", you warbled: > ] Why not write an interpreted C for SAM? That'd solve all our paging > ] problems. > > Because it would be horrendously slow, you'd have to have a run-time-only > version, and everyone would laugh at you for using it. > > Geoff > ]On Mon, 15 May 95 14:32:16 BST, Mr Andrew M Gale said: ]> Why not write an interpreted C for SAM? That'd solve all our paging ]> problems. ] ]Sure. Why not. The ease of assembly language programming coupled with ]the speed of BASIC. I'm sure it will be a smash hit... ] ]imc I was, actually, being facetious :] From imc Mon May 15 16:46:52 1995 Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 95 16:46:52 BST In-Reply-To: <9505151436.aa09425@nienna.ee.surrey.ac.uk.>; from "ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk" at May 15, 95 3:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 133 Lines: 6 On Mon, 15 May 1995 15:35:48 +0100 (WET DST), ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk said: > I was, actually, being facetious :] So was I. :-) imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 18:03:50 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <302.9505151615@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: More SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam-users mailing lsit) Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 17:15:11 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 506 Lines: 13 Hi! Wouldn't have all these great ideas for a SAM C have been better said -before- SAM C came out? Fair enough they are all good and valid points, and there are things about SAM C that I don't like, but we have SAM C now, and although it's going to be improved, and some of the bugs removed, infact I hope all the bugs removed (!) I can't see another entirely different version of C being released for now. Sorry to be so grumpy, and negative, I didn't take my happy pills this morning ;-) Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 18:35:26 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505151732.AA07783@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: More SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 95 18:32:51 BST In-Reply-To: <302.9505151615@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk>; from "Tim Paveley" at May 15, 95 5:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 214 Lines: 12 > > Wouldn't have all these great ideas for a SAM C have been better said > -before- SAM C came out? > > Tim ....@/ Good point. OK folks, let's start having your suggestions for SAM FORTRAN-77, please! -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 18:47:30 1995 Message-Id: <30225.9505151743@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: More SAM C To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 18:43:48 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: <302.9505151615@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk> from "Tim Paveley" at May 15, 95 05:15:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 973 Lines: 26 > Wouldn't have all these great ideas for a SAM C have been better said > -before- SAM C came out? Sorry Tim, me and Ian are arguing fairly publicly aren't we. We are talking about a possible future upgrade to Sam C. C is one of those few packages that can build itself, so once you have got a C compiler, you can "pull yourself up by your boot-straps" and compile a better one. > I hope all the bugs removed (!) I can't see another entirely different > version of C being released for now. Yes, compilers have a long development cycle, but if someone does plan to produce a new C compiler for the Sam, let's make sure they know what our requirements are now. > Sorry to be so grumpy, and negative, I didn't take my happy pills this > morning ;-) Don't misunderstand me. I congratulate Fred and the author of the C compiler for producing it. It's Darwinian now. If they produce a C compiler with some defeciencies, someone else will use it to produce another one. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 18:49:32 1995 Message-Id: <30434.9505151720@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 18:20:20 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: <9505151512.AA04698@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 15, 95 05:12:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 753 Lines: 24 > Correct. But this is also legal. > > char x[100]; > char *p=&x[0]; > char y[70000]; > > p=&y[0]; > putchar(p[60000]); I believe my suggested logic handled that. You can recognise "p=&y[0]" at compile-time as a 24-bit pointer assignment and force p to be a 24-bit pointer. > Another problem will be with library routines. If you pass a 16-bit pointer > to a routine that expects a 24-bit one, you are in trouble. Perhaps pointer > types should be promoted when they are passed. Like floats? Yeah, that would work. I don't think my way would be harder for the compiler than a "far *" notation. It would be much easier for the compiler if there was a global switch, or #pragma statements, but that would be harder on the user. / Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 19:11:48 +0100 Message-Id: <26372.9505151811@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Um, Games? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 143 Lines: 5 Outta curiosity, is anyone writing ay games for the SAM at the moment? Just tryin' to keep abreast of current events, y'understand... Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 23:24:57 1995 From: goringgn Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 23:24:41 +0100 Message-Id: <12728.9505152224@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Members List X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 141 Lines: 8 I reckon it's time we had another members list. Who exactly is on this mailing list? Well, there's me for a start. :) Anyone else? Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 15 23:30:39 1995 From: eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 23:31:26 +0100 Message-Id: <17834.199505152231@csgi33.scs.leeds.ac.uk> To: sam-users%nvg.unit.no@gps.leeds.ac.uk Subject: Re: Members List X-Mailer: [XMailTool v3.1.0] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 202 Lines: 16 > I reckon it's time we had another members list. Who exactly is on this > mailing list? > > Well, there's me for a start. :) > > Anyone else? > > Graham Me. Cheers, Arne From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 09:27:54 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: RE: Members List Date: Tue, 16 May 95 09:26:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB8D217@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 10 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 256 Lines: 10 > I reckon it's time we had another members list. Who exactly is on this > mailing list? So, does this mean that I should drag my list out of retirement? If you want, I will get on the case again- and press-gang lots of people to do stuff :) Dan Doore From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 12:20:49 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: RE: Members List Date: Tue, 16 May 95 12:06:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB8F7A8@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 57 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1884 Lines: 57 > > I reckon it's time we had another members list. Who exactly is on this > > mailing list? And here it is: Dan. Sam Users SMTP Address --------- ------------------------------ Colin Piggot - cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk Frode Tennebo - frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no frodet@www1.cern.ch Simon Cooke - scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Dan Doore - D.J.Doore@lmu.ac.uk Brian Gaff - briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk Arne Di Russo - eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk Ian Collier - Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk Tim Paveley - tsp93@ecs.soton.ac.uk Graham Goring - goringgn@aston.ac.uk Geoff Winkless - gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk Nigel Kettleworth - nigket@dcs.warwick.ac.uk Johnathan Taylor - SAM-LIST@phoenix.centron.com Andrew D. Birkett - 9458183@lewis.sms.edinburgh.ac.uk Colin MacDonald - mcscs3cgm@dct.ac.uk Steve Taylor - sct1000@hermes.cam.ac.uk Stephen Longhurst - sl92@ecs.soton.ac.uk Graham Burtenshaw - glb2@le.ac.uk Keith Turner - K.Turner@ucl.ac.uk Paul Finn - P.A.Finn-SE2@computer-science.birmingham.ac.uk Allan Skillman - allan@hpopb1.cern.ch Robert Partington - partingr@cs.man.ac.uk Gianni Zamperini - gianni.zamperini@galactica.it Salajka Milan - SALAJKA@EARN.CVUT.CZ David Zambonini - SPX3DMZ@CARDIFF.AC.UK Andrew Gale - ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk William Easson - 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Stefan Drissen - stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl Campbell McNeill - cmcneil@mcs.dundee.ac.uk Ben Versteeg - ben@charm.il.ft.hse.nl Slawomir Grodkowski - slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Lucien Murray-Pitts - lamp@dcs.edinburgh.ac.uk Remaining unknown ----------------- tgw1001@cam.ac.uk Credits: List complied by Dan Doore Contributions from: Ian Collier, Tim Paveley, Geoff Winkless, Steve Taylor, Simon Cooke, Ingrid Ledererova & Frode Tennebo. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 12:55:01 1995 Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 12:50:56 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Taylor X-Sender: sct1000@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: RE: Members List In-Reply-To: <2FB8F7A8@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 361 Lines: 10 tgw1001@cam.ac.uk is Tim Wells. +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Taylor sct1000@cam.ac.uk | | Pembroke College http://nikita.pem.cam.ac.uk/sct1000/ | | Cambridge CB2 1RF | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ From imc Tue May 16 12:58:28 1995 Subject: Re: Members List To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 16 May 95 12:58:28 BST In-Reply-To: <12728.9505152224@sun.aston.ac.uk>; from "goringgn" at May 15, 95 11:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 261 Lines: 11 On Mon, 15 May 1995 23:24:41 +0100, goringgn said: > I reckon it's time we had another members list. Who exactly is on this > mailing list? > Well, there's me for a start. :) > Anyone else? Nah - don't think so. You're the only one here aren't you?... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 13:00:46 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505161154.AA14828@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: Members List To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 13:54:12 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <2FB8F7A8@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Dan [MIS]" at May 16, 95 12:06:00 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 233 Lines: 9 > Steve Taylor, Simon Cooke, Ingrid Ledererova ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Who? -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 13:30:56 1995 From: goringgn Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 13:13:27 +0100 Message-Id: <4476.9505161213@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: RE: Members List X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 345 Lines: 10 Sheesh! The list sure has grown. Um, but a lot of the bods seem like passive members. When was the last time Graham Burtenshaw wrote in? And I thought that Axe was a member of the list! Is this yet more of the horrible 'I'm buggering off the SAM' syndrome? Aaaaarrrrgggghhhh! Yours, With sweetness, politeness, and all over freshness, Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 13:34:23 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505161227.AA15028@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: On a different question.... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 14:27:14 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Simon Cooke" at Mar 20, 95 08:51:04 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 597 Lines: 18 Hi Si! I wondered if you could tell me if this definition is correct english or not: NETSCAPISM /net-'sca-,pi-z*m/ n (1995): habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from the realization that the Internet was built by and for someone else. It's the part "....diversion..to....purely imaginative activity or entertainment..." that boggles me. It doesn't 'look' right? Am I wrong or am I wrong? Cheers -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 13:42:42 1995 From: goringgn Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 13:16:27 +0100 Message-Id: <4487.9505161216@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Members List X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 323 Lines: 16 > On Mon, 15 May 1995 23:24:41 +0100, goringgn said: > > I reckon it's time we had another members list. Who exactly is on this > > mailing list? > > > Well, there's me for a start. :) > > > Anyone else? > > Nah - don't think so. You're the only one here aren't you?... > > imc > By golly you're right, Ian. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 13:47:05 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505161238.AA15058@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: On a different question.... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 14:38:23 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <9505161227.AA15028@wwwlab.cern.ch> from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 16, 95 02:27:14 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 272 Lines: 9 Sorry guys! This was ment as a private mail to Simon. My brain has just taken national holiday one day earlier in the wrong country. :) -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 14:14:38 1995 Message-Id: <199505161312.PAA20184@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Re: On a different question.... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 14:11:20 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <9505161227.AA15028@wwwlab.cern.ch> from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 16, 95 02:27:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1112 Lines: 27 > I wondered if you could tell me if this definition is correct > english or not: > > NETSCAPISM /net-'sca-,pi-z*m/ n (1995): the habitual diversion of the mind to entertainment or any purely imaginary form of activity in order to escape from the sinking realisation that the Internet was built by and for someone else. > It's the part "....diversion..to....purely imaginative activity or > entertainment..." that boggles me. It doesn't 'look' right? Am > I wrong or am I wrong? you're right, but I think the above /may/ be neater. Personal preference really. RELATED TOPICS: NONANTHROTELECOMMUNISM: A form of religion which insists that the internet is not for human use, rather that it is for computers to talk to one another and plan their schemes for world domination. VIDEOMORPHIC SHOCK: The state of realisation a person enters when they find that either (a) they have just used a smiley on paper media, or (b) that they are gesticulating when talking over a telephone, or some form of real-time chat where the other participant has no hope in hell of seeing their hand movements. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 17:10:09 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Users List Date: Tue, 16 May 95 16:27:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB934A5@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 46 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1748 Lines: 46 Sam Users SMTP Address --------- ------------------------------ Colin Piggot - cgp@st-andrews.ac.uk Frode Tennebo - frodet@ulke.dhmolde.no frodet@www1.cern.ch Simon Cooke - scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Dan Doore - D.J.Doore@lmu.ac.uk Brian Gaff - briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk Arne Di Russo - eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk Ian Collier - Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk Tim Paveley - tsp93@ecs.soton.ac.uk Graham Goring - goringgn@aston.ac.uk Geoff Winkless - gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk Nigel Kettlewell - nigket@dcs.warwick.ac.uk Johnathan Taylor - SAM-LIST@phoenix.centron.com Andrew D. Birkett - 9458183@lewis.sms.edinburgh.ac.uk Colin Macdonald - mcscs3cgm@dct.ac.uk Steve Taylor - sct1000@hermes.cam.ac.uk Stephen Longhurst - sl92@ecs.soton.ac.uk Graham Burtenshaw - glb2@le.ac.uk Keith Turner - K.Turner@ucl.ac.uk Paul Finn - P.A.Finn-SE2@computer-science.birmingham.ac.uk Allan Skillman - allan@hpopb1.cern.ch Robert Partington - partingr@cs.man.ac.uk Gianni Zamperini - gianni.zamperini@galactica.it Salajka Milan - SALAJKA@EARN.CVUT.CZ David Zambonini - SPX3DMZ@CARDIFF.AC.UK Andrew Gale - ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk William Easson - 9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk Stefan Drissen - stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl Campbell McNeill - cmcneil@mcs.dundee.ac.uk Ben Versteeg - ben@charm.il.ft.hse.nl Tim Wells - tgw1001@cam.ac.uk Slawomir Grodkowski - slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Lucien Murray-Pitts - lamp@dcs.edinburgh.ac.uk Credits: List complied by Dan Doore Contributions from: Ian Collier, Tim Paveley, Geoff Winkless, Steve Taylor, Simon Cooke, Ingrid Ledererova & Frode Tennebo. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 17:11:40 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Members List Date: Tue, 16 May 95 15:26:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FB92C95@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 16 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 336 Lines: 16 > tgw1001@cam.ac.uk is Tim Wells. Thanks Steve. > > Steve Taylor, Simon Cooke, Ingrid Ledererova > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Who? She is the administrator who gave me some info on Salajka Milan (I think) So there. Dan. P.S. Final list will be posted a bit later.... From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 16 18:42:34 1995 From: Johnathan Taylor Date: 16 May 95 05:33:56 +0000 Subject: Sam C again... Message-Id: <7f8_9505160852@centron.com> Organization: CC-NET BBS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5803 Lines: 117 On (15 May 95) Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote to All... I > Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 12:51:51 +0200 I > From: Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk I > On 13 May 95 23:20:56 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: I > > HiTech linker as provided seperates the binary image into 3 I > distinct I > > areas, which can be re-assigned in very adaptable ways I > Then it is the same as most linkers. An object file contains... I > - a text segment (containing machine code; it might also contain the I > contents of literal strings as in puts("hello world");; compilers differ I > about this); I > - a data segment (containing initialised variables), and I > - a bss segment (containing uninitialised variables). The bss segment is I > not written on disk but its size is stored in the header of the object I > file. You then go on to critisize as if you KNEW exactly how to write it! Ian the article was not an RFD or anything that was asking to be tested with your ideas of what a normal compiler does. ANY compiler optimised for the Sam-coupe native enviroment MIGHT be able to accept enough of the standard C source programs to fool the user into thinking it's like normal compilers but the fact that it's for the Sam with its unique banked architecture will mean that many of the things that you assume it'll do by some pre-conceived memory model switch idea bears no relation to how it'll probably be achieved internally. I think you'll find that all the small to huge memory model uses that you've used involved simply using different sized args on the generated instructions. eg 8,16,32 or 64bit location references. Such things are relativly easy. Which would be like using JR op for small model and JP for large model or RST n for small model calls and CALL NN for large model calls on a z80. That's the extent of similarity between conventional C compilers and one for the SAM that fully exploits it. Sam C could be one of 2 creatures... a simple C source to z80 code generator that insist that the programmer decides how ram is banked and when, which would be a C compiler by definition but leave everything else upto the programmer so it'd be as awkward as assembler to program and be slower than assebler in execution... Or it'll be as normal C like as possible, in which case it'll handle banking internally and will make certain compromises that are inevatable to achieve the transparent use of extra memory which will invlove centralising the bank-switching and restricting the size of code or data. It WILL have limitations, it WILL NOT be perfect. HLL language programming is a performance cop-out over reduced source generation time. If you are worried about speed so much then don't bother about discussing C as the two things are not linked on any machine. Hand-coded assembler is always faster and more mem efficient than C on any processor but as I'm sure you are aware it's nearly always easier to write in C on your Sun than in assembly language. Note I'm NOT ever going to write SAM C I was just expressing raw ideas for anyone intending to write it. If the ideas were polished and complete it'd be a draught for the compiler, which it wasn't. Although you seem quite knowledgable on C programming source examples, the object code generation on non-z80 systems is different enough as it is, without trying to transpose those ideas onto sam which is both a z80 and not even related to any direct addresing system! I'd like to see a full C for native mode, but I doubt it'll happen, especially if you go specify silly programs as examples it has to be able to compile! I mean gcc or tex.... lets get serious now. things like those will only stand a chance if hand-coded in assembler and even then it'd be highly unlikely to fit! Anyway WHY would anyone want gcc on the sam? To my knowledge it only knows of direct addressing techniques and would be lost outside the SAM fixed 64k address if asked to bankswitch... which leaves it the class of the first senario leaving the memory managment upto the programmer! BTW Ian. I do find it anoying that when I or others simply post raw-ideas for people to either use or discard that we have to sit down and justify ideas and concepts just because they are not clear to you at your present understanding. It makes the donation of ideas a tiresome exersise and is in my opinion a better deterent to the free-exchange of ideas than a law banning it! What is to be gained by me or anyone sitting down and explaning to you WHY a possible concept may work? Nothing. I very much doubt you will write the perfect C compiler even if it were explained fully to you. So all it does is waste my time and maybe teach you somthing that you'll never need to know anyway... We've been here a couple of times before and every time I've asked myself why do I bother posting anything to sam-users in the first place! We're not here to educate you every time we talk about somthing we've been working on that you're not aware of. Please try not to be so argumentative and over-critical I'd hate to have to add your name to my twit-list, as yet I've managed to avoid implementing that option and would like it to stay that way if possible. I hear enough arguing in this world without you disagree'n with posters and critisising left-right and center without purpose... Sorry but that's the way I feel. If you don't understand or don't accept that you are argumentative and wish to argue about it then please say so promptly, I shall not argue the point I'll just enable the twit filter after that I'll not be hearing you whatever. BFN. Johnathan. -- |Fidonet: Johnathan Taylor 2:2501/307.9 |Internet: jet@centron.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 07:00:20 1995 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 06:40:16 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8550@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam C again... X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 294 Lines: 13 cough. I hope someone is going to post the SAM C buglist for Colin? I of vourse, being totally thick in the C sense, am totally mind boggled reading all this! I can sort of understand Pascal, but C gives me a headache.... Brian (with the unstructured brain cells) -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From imc Wed May 17 10:52:03 1995 Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 95 10:52:03 BST In-Reply-To: <7f8_9505160852@centron.com>; from "Johnathan Taylor" at May 16, 95 5:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1314 Lines: 36 On 16 May 95 05:33:56 +0000, Johnathan Taylor said: > You then go on to critisize as if you KNEW exactly how to write it! ... > BTW Ian. I do find it anoying that ... > What is to be gained by me or anyone sitting down and explaning to you WHY a > possible concept may work? Nothing. ... > We've been here a couple of times before and every time I've asked myself > why do I bother posting anything to sam-users in the first place! > We're not here to educate you ... > Please try not to be so argumentative and over-critical I'd hate to have to > add your name to my twit-list, ... > I hear enough arguing in this world ... Finished? PLease note: 1. At NO time did I ever say I knew exactly how to write it, or even that I was going to at all. 2. That was not a criticism. It was a discussion. Stop being so sensitive and self-pitying. In a discussion people usually have to disagree because it wouldn't be much of a discussion otherwise. I have asked you to explain several of the things that you wrote. Perhaps when you have done so I will agree. 3. As supporting evidence for (2) I would like to point out that I quoted a whole paragraph of your mail and wrote "OK" after it. 4. I was NOT the first person to mention gcc. Simon was. Thank you and good day. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 12:01:34 1995 Message-Id: <199505171058.MAA28680@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Date: Wed, 17 May 95 12:50:28 MET From: Milan Salajka Subject: Re: Members List To: sam-users In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 16 May 95 15:26:00 PDT from Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 136 Lines: 8 Eka! > She is the administrator who gave me some info on Salajka Milan (I think) I gave you info myself... i think. ;-) Milan From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 12:04:37 1995 From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sam C again... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 11:59:24 +0100 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: <9505170952.AA16506@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 17, 95 11:52:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Message-Id: <9505171059.aa03382@valar.ee.surrey.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 41 Lines: 3 Ohmigod! is C worht squabbling about?! From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 12:33:16 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 12:31:24 +0100 Message-Id: <3138.9505171131@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Happy as a big hog with an extremely large mud-puddle and no financial worries. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 480 Lines: 11 Well, last night I decided to try and give Machine Coding another try. After the miserable failures of everything I have written so far, I was not exactly expecting anything spectacular. So I wrote this poxy horizontal parallax starfield, and to my utter surprise it worked first time. At last I can call myself "Someone who can type in things to a special program then swear at them a bit and give up because it's all too much work" like some of you lot. Oh, the joy. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 12:35:03 1995 Message-Id: <10821.199505171059@lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 11:59:49 +0100 From: William Easson <9264201e@udcf.gla.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam C again... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 406 Lines: 8 'ere, cmon lads! This arguing is starting to get a little out of hand. I think a discussion on SAM C can only be productive, because it highlights waysin which the program can be improved. However, we need to bear in mind that a lot of work went into the creation of the program, and so a little sensitivity is in order when pointing out any bugs (sorry- "undocumented features" :-) ) Just calm down! From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 12:53:56 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Members List Date: Wed, 17 May 95 12:09:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FBA4DED@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 47 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 865 Lines: 47 > Eka! > > > She is the administrator who gave me some info on Salajka Milan (I think) > > I gave you info myself... i think. ;-) You both did, Behold: She said: On Wed, 25 Jan 95 16:16:00 PST you said: > >I am compling a list of user names on behalf of the 'sam-users' mailing list >(sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no) >and I am unable to get any user information via finger. > >Could you please pass me the name details of user SALAJKA@EARN.CVUT.CZ. Salajka Milan Regards Ingrid Ledererova --------------------- You said: > We would be grateful if you could mail me or the forum with your details > so we can complete our list. Ok, do you want some special info ? > Dan Doore > d.j.doore@lmu.ac.uk Milan Salajka salajka@earn.cvut.cz salajka@csearn.bitnet --------------------- Bingo! Dan Doore. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 12:54:47 1995 From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog with an extremely large mud-puddle and no To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 12:47:36 +0100 (WET DST) In-Reply-To: <3138.9505171131@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "goringgn" at May 17, 95 12:31:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Message-Id: <9505171147.aa04402@valar.ee.surrey.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 530 Lines: 15 > > Well, last night I decided to try and give Machine Coding another try. After the > miserable failures of everything I have written so far, I was not exactly > expecting anything spectacular. > So I wrote this poxy horizontal parallax starfield, and to my utter surprise it > worked first time. > Graham That's just not on. Why can't you be like everyone else and make your first machine code program a 10-byte thing which flickers the border so it looks stripey? I thought this was a universally accepted first attempt. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 13:02:40 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Sam C again... Date: Wed, 17 May 95 12:10:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FBA4E19@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 6 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 83 Lines: 6 > Ohmigod! is C worht squabbling about?! More than you could ever imagine. Dan. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 13:07:56 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:05:07 +0100 Message-Id: <3293.9505171205@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog with an extremely large mud-puddle and no X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 746 Lines: 21 >> Well, last night I decided to try and give Machine Coding another try. After >> the >> miserable failures of everything I have written so far, I was not exactly >> expecting anything spectacular. >> So I wrote this poxy horizontal parallax starfield, and to my utter surprise>> it >> worked first time. >> Graham > > > > That's just not on. Why can't you be like everyone else and make your > first machine code program a 10-byte thing which flickers the border > so it looks stripey? I thought this was a universally accepted first > attempt. > > Like I say, this was giving machine code another try, before doing the parallax I too did the stripy border with accompanying screechy sound fx program. Do not worry, I AM normal. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 13:20:50 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: FTP Sites for Speccy games Date: Wed, 17 May 95 12:59:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FBA558A@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 5 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 137 Lines: 5 Is there a mirror of the speccy archive at ftp.ijs.si somewhere 'cos this 'only 2 anonymous users' business is driving me mental! Dan. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 13:44:49 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505171233.AA24459@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog with an extremely large mud-puddle and no To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 14:33:17 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <9505171147.aa04402@valar.ee.surrey.ac.uk> from "ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk" at May 17, 95 12:47:36 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 16 > That's just not on. Why can't you be like everyone else and make your > first machine code program a 10-byte thing which flickers the border > so it looks stripey? I thought this was a universally accepted first > attempt. Actually, I wrote a lightning fast screen uncompressor. :) The compressor was written in compiled basic ;-) Though, I did that one next. And then I did a 2x3-or- whatever-in-between-integer-sizes screen-print routine. Oh..those were the days. -Frode 'who selebrate the Norwegian national day like this' -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 14:20:45 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <13431.9505171249@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:49:53 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505171147.aa04402@valar.ee.surrey.ac.uk> from "ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk" at May 17, 95 12:47:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 455 Lines: 12 To Quote ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk : > That's just not on. Why can't you be like everyone else and make your > first machine code program a 10-byte thing which flickers the border > so it looks stripey? I thought this was a universally accepted first > attempt. :raises hand sheepishly. I tried that one. It kept crashing on me though. I think I am forever destined to use Basic, or GamesMASTER, or possibly SamC when I get around to using it. Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 14:31:10 1995 Message-Id: <9505171322.AA09489@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 95 15:22:26 METDST In-Reply-To: <13431.9505171249@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk>; from "Tim Paveley" at May 17, 95 1:49 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 445 Lines: 26 > > I tried that one. It kept crashing on me though. I think I am forever destined > to use Basic, or GamesMASTER, or possibly SamC when I get around to using it. > > Tim ....@/ > Ok your lesson for today is below - type it in at your leisure... ORG 32768 ENT ; loop LD A,R AND 15 OUT (&FE),A ; Change the border colour LD B,0 DJNZ $ ; A bit of a delay LD A,239 IN A,(254) ; Press 0 to exit BIT 0,A JR NZ,loop RET Allan -- From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 15:07:13 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <21325.9505171348@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 14:48:43 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505171322.AA09489@dxmint.cern.ch> from "Allan Skillman" at May 17, 95 03:22:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 189 Lines: 11 To Quote Allan Skillman : > Ok your lesson for today is below - type it in at your leisure... > > Allan >From memory as well, I am impressed! Ta muchly :-) Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 15:11:09 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Happy... Date: Wed, 17 May 95 14:50:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FBA6F67@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 27 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 506 Lines: 27 > Ok your lesson for today is below - type it in at your leisure... > > ORG 32768 > ENT > ; > loop LD A,R > AND 15 > OUT (&FE),A ; Change the border colour > LD B,0 > DJNZ $ ; A bit of a delay > LD A,239 > IN A,(254) ; Press 0 to exit > BIT 0,A > JR NZ,loop > RET > Type this in tonight: 10 DO 20 BORDER RND(6)+1 30 PAUSE 1 40 LOOP UNTIL INKEY$="0" Heh Heh :) Dan. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 16:05:59 1995 Message-Id: <9505171449.AA04298@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 95 16:49:44 METDST In-Reply-To: <21325.9505171348@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk>; from "Tim Paveley" at May 17, 95 2:48 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 233 Lines: 9 > >From memory as well, I am impressed! It might even work if you are lucky! - probably have to add some colons for the labels if you use COMET. I use LERM (cos its great for Driver programing and it reminds me of Zeus) Allan -- From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 16:29:43 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:16:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: allan -- "Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted)" (May 17, 3:22pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1106 Lines: 47 On May 17, 3:22pm in "Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted)", you warbled: ] Ok your lesson for today is below - type it in at your leisure... Sir, sir, when was the last time you wrote _real_ code sir??? I'd put a ld bc,(239*256+254) (can't be bothered to work it out!) in here. See below for why... ] loop LD A,R Bleagh. Sick sick man. Double-length instruction when a simple inc a would have done... ] AND 15 ] OUT (&FE),A ; Change the border colour ] LD B,0 don't want this inside the loop... you'll already have 0 in b because of the djnz below... ] DJNZ $ ; A bit of a delay And anyway, instead of these I'd have dec d jr nz, $-1 This uses the same amount of memory, although it's slightly slower... The problem with slowness isn't, really, though, since it's a _delay_ loop... ] LD A,239 ] IN A,(254) ; Press 0 to exit Now this can be speeded up and space-decreased with: in a,(c) ] BIT 0,A BIT 0,A? BIT is one of the slowest instructions in the book. Use AND A,1 ] JR NZ,loop ] RET Admittedly, it does use an extra register (D), but really.... :) Geoff From imc Wed May 17 16:46:49 1995 Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 95 16:46:49 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Geoff Winkless" at May 17, 95 4:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 794 Lines: 32 On Wed, 17 May 1995 16:16:31 +0100, Geoff Winkless said: > Sir, sir, when was the last time you wrote _real_ code sir??? I might ask the same... > I'd put a > ld bc,(239*256+254) (can't be bothered to work it out!) > in here. See below for why... Did you mean to put those parentheses there? > ] loop LD A,R > Bleagh. Sick sick man. Double-length instruction when a simple inc a would have > done... You have corrupted A though. INC A wouldn't be that much good. > Now this can be speeded up and space-decreased with: > in a,(c) See? > ] BIT 0,A > BIT 0,A? BIT is one of the slowest instructions in the book. Use AND A,1 1. RRCA is faster. 2. BIT 0,A is precisely one cycle slower than AND 1 [no A in that]. 3. RR (IX+2) is probably the slowest instruction in the book. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 17:20:33 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 17:01:46 +0100 Message-Id: <2989.9505171601@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 325 Lines: 11 Sheesh! This has turned from my Bambi-like "programmer takes his first tentative steps in code thread' into a point scoring session. Blimey! It was just meant so that everyone could pat me on the back and say "well done Graham". Bloody hell, Drop a hint? May as well drop an A-bomb for all the effect it'll have. Graham From imc Wed May 17 17:23:47 1995 Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 95 17:23:47 BST In-Reply-To: <2989.9505171601@sun.aston.ac.uk>; from "goringgn" at May 17, 95 5:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 237 Lines: 7 On Wed, 17 May 1995 17:01:46 +0100, goringgn said: > Sheesh! This has turned from my Bambi-like "programmer takes his first > tentative steps in code thread' into a point scoring session. I was merely defending you against Mars... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 17:26:27 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 17:09:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted)" (May 17, 5:46pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1021 Lines: 40 On May 17, 5:46pm in "Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted)", you warbled: ] > Sir, sir, when was the last time you wrote _real_ code sir??? ] I might ask the same... As you may have gathered... the last time I wrote z80 was around... ooh... last June? ] > I'd put a ] > ld bc,(239*256+254) (can't be bothered to work it out!) ] > in here. See below for why... ] ] Did you mean to put those parentheses there? No -- hense the comment afterwards. ] You have corrupted A though. INC A wouldn't be that much good. Ok, use inc E and out (c),e instead. ] > BIT 0,A? BIT is one of the slowest instructions in the book. Use AND A,1 ] ] 1. RRCA is faster. True... and in fact uses one less byte... sorry... ] 2. BIT 0,A is precisely one cycle slower than AND 1 [no A in that]. *grin* But using BIT should generally be frowned upon because it's basically foul :) And the 'A' - as I said, been programming too much ARM... ] 3. RR (IX+2) is probably the slowest instruction in the book. :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 17:40:13 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 17:10:18 +0100 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: slowest instruction... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 29 Lines: 6 How about HALT? :-) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 19:23:21 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 19:09:41 +0100 Message-Id: <3432.9505171809@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 356 Lines: 14 > On Wed, 17 May 1995 17:01:46 +0100, goringgn said: > > Sheesh! This has turned from my Bambi-like "programmer takes his first > > tentative steps in code thread' into a point scoring session. > > I was merely defending you against Mars... > > imc > Nooo... Mars was against Allan. That's who you were defending. This is getting confusing... Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 19:31:47 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505171815.AA24844@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: slowest instruction... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 20:15:22 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Geoff Winkless" at May 17, 95 05:10:18 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 209 Lines: 11 > > How about HALT? > HALT has a relative slowness - doesn't count :) -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 19:53:47 1995 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 19:37:39 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Taylor X-Sender: sct1000@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) In-Reply-To: <9505171449.AA04298@dxmint.cern.ch> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 719 Lines: 17 On Wed, 17 May 1995, Allan Skillman wrote: > It might even work if you are lucky! - probably have to add some colons for > the labels if you use COMET. I use LERM (cos its great for Driver > programing and it reminds me of Zeus) Strange - I always felt COMET was best, epsecially since it reserves memory properly and you can stick Driver and some aps in at the same time for testing... +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Taylor sct1000@cam.ac.uk | | Pembroke College http://nikita.pem.cam.ac.uk/sct1000/ | | Cambridge CB2 1RF | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 19:54:44 1995 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 19:39:47 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Taylor X-Sender: sct1000@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 445 Lines: 11 >From memory I think BIT x,(IX+d) is probably about as bad as you can get. Doesn't stop me from using it though... +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Taylor sct1000@cam.ac.uk | | Pembroke College http://nikita.pem.cam.ac.uk/sct1000/ | | Cambridge CB2 1RF | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 23:07:08 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505172152.AA14341@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Happy... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 17 May 95 22:52:14 BST In-Reply-To: <2FBA6F67@courier.lmu.ac.uk>; from "Doore, Dan [MIS]" at May 17, 95 2:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 287 Lines: 19 > Type this in tonight: > > 10 DO > 20 BORDER RND(6)+1 > 30 PAUSE 1 > 40 LOOP UNTIL INKEY$="0" > > Heh Heh :) > > Dan. That's appalling. This is far better: 10 border rnd(6)+1:pause 1:if inkey$<>"0" then goto 10 None of your namby pamby do-loop nonsense. -AG From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 17 23:23:21 1995 From: stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl Original-Received: by tic.iaf.nl id 00K3R00B Thu, 18 May 95 00:23:50 -0600 Pp-Warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line Message-Id: <9505180023.00K3R00@tic.iaf.nl> Organization: Internet Connection BBS X-Mailer: TBBS/PIMP v3.11 Date: Thu, 18 May 95 00:23:50 -0600 Subject: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3272 Lines: 73 Hi all, first of all Jonathan, nice telling off of Ian. I'm not sure as to him needing to be educated, but his over-criticism is a real cold shower, it sort of puts a damper on the scene everytime someone comes up with some neat new idea Ian is all to happy to go along and slam it. As to all the talk on the speed coding. Sorry Geoff, but I don't see what makes a BIT 0,A such a slow instruction, it's equally slow as a AND A,1 (as you call it - I prefer AND 1 - but then I don't do any RISC stuff on the side). Theoretically BIT 0,A uses 8 t-states and an AND 1 takes 7 t-states. On the SAM hoewever due to the ASIC, memory contemption etc etc, both instructions take just as long. During my research into the exact speeds of the Z80 instruction set on the SAM a while ago, one of my main conclusions has been that ALL opcodes take a multiple of 4 t-states. Therefore 7 t-states is not on and is delayed to become 8. Roughly what it works out at is that each N that has to be fetched adds 1 t-state to the instruction since it has to be fetched from contended memory. Therefore a LD HL,nn takes 12 t-states, 10 in theory plus 2 for the 2 N's. I still haven't worked this out for all commands and even for the ones I thought I had figured out when I wanted to calculate how many instructions I could use before dumping out the next sample byte (in the burstplayer) I ended up having to use a hand made table since the things jumped every now and again. Very very strange! I would be so happy if someone could come up with a SAM emulator type of thing defining exactly how and WHEN the instructions are executed etc. As to the slowest instruction, how about the following combination: DI HALT (reading further on I see this has already been done) :) You can go along and make some tea while that one's executing (no pushing the NMI though!) OR, I'd better give all the other variations before someone else spends a whole lot of mailings pointing them out to me: JR $ JP $ DJNZ $ or for the grand finale, the one that does it every time: DI LD HL,0 LD DE,1 LD BC,0(yes a LD B,H and a LD C,L is faster) LD (HL),L LDIR by now pressing the nmi button you will be busy doing random programming. Has anybody ever posed on the fact that the number of programs that can be written on a computer with a finite amount of memory is also finite? Has anyone ever tried programming by doing the following: FOR F=32768 to 65535 POKE F,RND(255) NEXT F CALL 32768 You may be lucky and write a totally amazing game, or the most impressive utility ever, or a best selling book!!!!! The number of programs is limited! Does this mean that life is therefore also predetermined???? Am I getting my wires crossed? SAM C might have been written like this. Which brings me onto SAM C. Funny that everyone is blowing it out of the water and coming up with all these improvements AFTER it was released. Uptil it being announced I have never heard a soul whisper about C on the SAM... That's my ramble for this week I think. So get random programming! bye bye Solar Flare of Entropy (aka Stefan.Drissen@tic.iaf.nl) BTW Graham - I am soooo proud that you have risen to the heights of assembly. Does this mean the end of does awful spectrummy basic games!!! Please!!!! From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 09:49:44 1995 Message-Id: <9505180846.AA06654@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:46:20 METDST In-Reply-To: ; from "gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk" at Maykless) 17, 95 4:16 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1152 Lines: 29 Sheesh - lets all take my code apart shall we, I was only trying to show the guy how do do a border effect type program. Hes obviously not an experienced coder - so what was the point of using an obscure `algorithm' to do a pretty useless piece of code! > > Sir, sir, when was the last time you wrote _real_ code sir??? Uh - well yesterday I was writing (an running) an analysis job to read a few gigs of data from CERN, reconstructing each event in turn and calculating a set of five anglular variables and their errors (which involves working with a 12x12 correlation matrix and a rather tricky 12 entry derivative vector). I can go on further about the unbinned maximum likelyhood using a 5 dimentional Monte Carlo Guassian integration if you like..... ;) If you're talking about Z80 programming I was coding last night on my SAM > BIT 0,A? BIT is one of the slowest instructions in the book. Use AND A,1 As I said above I was just trying to show the guy what to do, BIT is much more obvious than AND 1 (may I ask you when was the last time you coded!) > > Geoff > No offence man - but I wasn't trying to be technical, just clear -- From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 09:51:58 1995 Message-Id: <9505180850.AA08915@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:49:58 METDST In-Reply-To: ; from "Steve Taylor" at May 17, 95 7:37 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 548 Lines: 16 > Strange - I always felt COMET was best, epsecially since it reserves > memory properly and you can stick Driver and some aps in at the same time > for testing... > Actually LERM works fine for developing Driver stuff - the 256K version doesn't disturb the Driver pages (probably by acident I admit) and it leaves pages 1 and 2 undisturbed for the application. As I said before it also uses the same source format as the Zeus assembler on the Spectrum - so I can just transfer my old code across. Any progress on Driver V2 Steve? Allan -- From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 10:48:11 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:45:53 BST Message-Id: <7194.9505180945@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM C Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 124 Lines: 7 Hi! As the Sam C doesn't have floats, am I correct to assume that it has no maths like sin(), cos(), tan() etc? Colin P. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:00:40 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <388.9505180957@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:57:04 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505180023.00K3R00@tic.iaf.nl> from "stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl" at May 18, 95 00:23:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1151 Lines: 31 To Quote stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl : [stuff deleted] > on a computer with a finite amount of memory is also finite? Has anyone ever > tried programming by doing the following: > FOR F=32768 to 65535 > POKE F,RND(255) > NEXT F > CALL 32768 > You may be lucky and write a totally amazing game, or the most impressive > utility ever, or a best selling book!!!!! The number of programs is limited! [more deleted] That reminds me of a great theory I had. Which was to treat the entire screen as one incredibly big binary number, and constantly add 1 to it. Doing this you'd eventually display every possible screen for the Sam, some of which would be incredibly good, and possibly inspire me for a game. However, there are quite a few possibilitys, and to go through them all would take a very long time. Nice Idea though (if you follow what I meant!) Tim ....@/ (128*192+32)*8 combinations I think. (number of bits making up a screen) at 1 screen per second thats 3281 minutes 54.68 hours 2.27 days. And you'd have to watch every screen, some of which would be very dull. I think those figures are right, anyone want to write the code to do it? From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:04:31 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505180954.AA05970@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:54:31 BST In-Reply-To: <9505180846.AA06654@dxmint.cern.ch>; from "Allan Skillman" at May 18, 95 10:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 289 Lines: 9 > > > BIT 0,A? BIT is one of the slowest instructions in the book. Use AND A,1 > > As I said above I was just trying to show the guy what to do, BIT is much more > obvious than AND 1 (may I ask you when was the last time you coded!) > not if you're brought up on the 6502 it isn't! > From imc Thu May 18 11:08:56 1995 Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 95 11:08:56 BST In-Reply-To: <388.9505180957@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk>; from "Tim Paveley" at May 18, 95 10:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1109 Lines: 27 On Thu, 18 May 1995 10:57:04 +0100 (BST), Tim Paveley said: > To Quote stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl : > [stuff deleted] > > on a computer with a finite amount of memory is also finite? Has anyone ever > > tried programming by doing the following: > > FOR F=32768 to 65535 > > POKE F,RND(255) > > NEXT F > > CALL 32768 > > You may be lucky and write a totally amazing game, or the most impressive > > utility ever, or a best selling book!!!!! The number of programs is limited! > [more deleted] > > That reminds me of a great theory I had. Which was to treat the entire screen > as one incredibly big binary number, and constantly add 1 to it. > (128*192+32)*8 combinations I think. (number of bits making up a screen) The length of the screen in bytes is 24576. The number of possible values for each byte is 256. So the total number of combinations is 256**24576, which is approximately 8.04E+59184. If you bear in mind that the number of seconds in the lifetime of the universe is only 5E+17 (to within a factor of 2 or so) then you will realise the immensity of the task that is ahead of you... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:16:21 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <409.9505180958@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAM C - Maths To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:57:59 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <7194.9505180945@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> from "Colin G Piggot" at May 18, 95 10:45:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Lines: 9 To Quote Colin G Piggot : > As the Sam C doesn't have floats, am I correct to assume that it has no > maths like sin(), cos(), tan() etc? Yes. (From memory) No MATHS.H, FLOAT.H, or the like Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:19:08 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505181015.AA25407@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 12:15:41 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <388.9505180957@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk> from "Tim Paveley" at May 18, 95 10:57:04 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 791 Lines: 29 > However, there are quite a few possibilitys, and to go through them all > would take a very long time. Nice Idea though (if you follow what I meant!) A long time indeed.... > > Tim ....@/ > > (128*192+32)*8 combinations I think. (number of bits making up a screen) > at 1 screen per second thats > 3281 minutes > 54.68 hours > 2.27 days. You forget the fact that 8 bits gives 256 combinations. You also forget that with 2 bytes you have 256*256 = 65536 bytes. All in all: 24576 ^ 256 == mindboglingly big number. > I think those figures are right, anyone want to write the code to do it? I can write it, but I really won't be the one to run it. -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:24:05 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) Date: Thu, 18 May 95 11:10:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FBB8D74@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 7 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 181 Lines: 7 > not if you're brought up on the 6502 it isn't! So, a mis-spent youth, a troubled childhood and, from the sounds of it, ritualistic abuse at the hands of strange machines. Dan. From imc Thu May 18 11:28:04 1995 Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 95 11:28:04 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Steve Taylor" at May 17, 95 7:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1272 Lines: 38 On Wed, 17 May 1995 19:39:47 +0100 (BST), Steve Taylor said: > From memory I think BIT x,(IX+d) is probably about as bad as you can get. OK, not from memory... It is a tie. The instructions most highly prized for being slow are: at 23 cycles EX (SP),IX INC (IX+d) SET b,(IX+d) RES b,(IX+d) R (IX+d) at 21 cycles LDIR (if BC>0) LDDR CPIR CPDR INIR (if B>0) INDR OTIR OTDR at 20 cycles LD dd,(nn) LD (nn),dd LD IX,(nn) LD (nn),IX BIT b,(IX+d) at 19 cycles LD r,(IX+d) LD (IX+d),r LD (IX+d),n EX (SP),HL ALU A,(IX+d) Notation: R = RR RL RRC RLC SRA SRL SLA ALU = ADD ADC SUB SBC AND OR XOR CP Notice the domination of IX (and, it goes without saying, IY) here. If you want a fast program don't use it! :-) Note that by cheating you can make an instruction as long as you like by prefixing it with any number of FDs and DDs. I'm a bit surprised by the fact that INC and SET take the same time since INC is only a 3-byte instruction. The same goes for LD (IX+d),r vs LD (IX+d),n. Notice that, relatively speaking, the BIT instruction came nowhere near the top. Of course these timings all need changing if the instructions are written in the Sam's internal memory... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:36:25 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <995.9505181026@bosch.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 11:26:13 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505181015.AA25407@wwwlab.cern.ch> from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 18, 95 12:15:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 175 Lines: 8 To Quote Frode Tenneboe : > You forget the fact that 8 bits gives 256 combinations. Damn, I thought it looked too few. Thanks for correcting me (and to Ian too) Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:37:46 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505181021.AA25436@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 12:21:17 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <9505181015.AA25407@wwwlab.cern.ch> from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 18, 95 12:15:41 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 418 Lines: 14 > You forget the fact that 8 bits gives 256 combinations. > You also forget that with 2 bytes you have 256*256 = 65536 bytes. > All in all: > > 24576 ^ 256 == mindboglingly big number. Sorry....256 ^ 24576 == mindboglingly-big-number ^ something-not-as-big-but-still-huge-number -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From imc Thu May 18 11:38:24 1995 Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 95 11:38:24 BST In-Reply-To: <9505180023.00K3R00@tic.iaf.nl>; from "stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl" at May 18, 95 12:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1130 Lines: 22 Just this once I'll take the bait which has clearly been laid at my door by Mr Drissen. On Thu, 18 May 95 00:23:50 -0600, stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl said: > first of all Jonathan, nice telling off of Ian. I'm not sure as to him needing > to be educated, but his over-criticism is a real cold shower, it sort of puts a > damper on the scene everytime someone comes up with some neat new idea Ian is > all to happy to go along and slam it. This is not true. Perhaps you would like to cite copious examples. The discussions on sam-users were all very civil until Johnathan and you came along with your accusations. Of course we all know how polite, humble and generally nice you are. I seem to remember that my first mail from you said "Hello. finally your demos are getting slightly decent. I must say that ripping the Entropy E and mirroring it is rather sneaky... . Don't mind me, I'm just pissed off with your crap E-Tunes player replacing my older (but definetly less Spectrumish) player." How wonderfully complimentary. Maybe I should take lessons in tact and diplomacy from you as you are obviously an expert. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:42:07 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 11:35:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: Weekly ramble..." (May 18, 12:08pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 581 Lines: 15 On May 18, 12:08pm in "Re: Weekly ramble...", you warbled: ] The length of the screen in bytes is 24576. The number of possible values ] for each byte is 256. So the total number of combinations is 256**24576, ] which is approximately 8.04E+59184. Gulp. I knew I'd got it wrong... 72 days just didn't seem long enough :) ] If you bear in mind that the number of seconds in the lifetime of the ] universe is only 5E+17 (to within a factor of 2 or so) then you will ] realise the immensity of the task that is ahead of you... Well, I'm prepared to give it a try.... ;-) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:57:43 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 11:35:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: tsp93 -- "Re: Weekly ramble..." (May 18, 10:57am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2113 Lines: 82 On May 18, 10:57am in "Re: Weekly ramble...", you warbled: ] That reminds me of a great theory I had. Which was to treat the entire screen ] as one incredibly big binary number, and constantly add 1 to it. Doing this ] you'd eventually display every possible screen for the Sam, some of which would ] be incredibly good, and possibly inspire me for a game. ] ] However, there are quite a few possibilitys, and to go through them all ] would take a very long time. Nice Idea though (if you follow what I meant!) ] ] Tim ....@/ ] ] (128*192+32)*8 combinations I think. (number of bits making up a screen) Ummmmmmm.... wrong. You mean 128*192*256... which is 6291456... ] at 1 screen per second thats ] 3281 minutes 104857... ] 54.68 hours 1747... ] 2.27 days. 72... (rounding here, cos I'm using dc and can't be bothered to approximate... ) ] And you'd have to watch every screen, some of which would be very dull. Very... ] I think those figures are right, anyone want to write the code to do it? Hmmmm... quite simple. Skipping the paging parts, assuming you have code at 16384-32767 and screen at 32768-65535, and ROM0 at 0-16383.... loop1: ld b,50 ; this will sometimes give slightly more than a second, ; cos the code below will take some time to execute halt ; interrupts must be enabled. If you like, you could ; replace this with a scan-line check djnz $-1 ld hl,32768 ld a,(hl) ; see below inc a ; see below ld (hl),a ; see below... jr nc, loop1 ld bc,24576 loop3: inc hl ld a,(hl) ; inc a ; ld (hl),a ; ditto jr nc, loop1 dec bc ld a,b or c jr nz, loop3 ;bc has got to 0 -- hit the end of the screen... ;now if (hl)=0, it's finished... ld a,(hl) or a ret z jr loop1 Before anyone mentions, yes, I probably should have stored 32768 in de, and reloaded that _only_ after it had changed... and I _probably_ should have used inc (hl) but I can't for the _life_ of me remember if it changes the C flag and I don't have my databook to hand... However, I _think_ this would do what you want... PS. I'm wearing my flame-proof suit today... :) :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 11:58:29 1995 Message-Id: <21093.9505181054@rs6-233.cls-4.bcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 11:54:00 +0100 (BST) From: Mr Keith Turner In-Reply-To: <9505181015.AA25407@wwwlab.cern.ch> from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 18, 95 12:15:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1684 Lines: 37 Frode worked out the number of different Sam displays: > You forget the fact that 8 bits gives 256 combinations. > You also forget that with 2 bytes you have 256*256 = 65536 bytes. > All in all: > > 24576 ^ 256 == mindboglingly big number. About 9351187777141846717362003195896738271040212495937994454107040574645424\ 9245583443144322594038615003054842927068519724841126783110723195570889\ 8073941758203682829051836783526082116120845407201759722475042071211560\ 0051820410473294365872119497694873928431555325898826342262468667422042\ 2852196737838879614366422783973620814238641904863261964446865903186080\ 7455953887226021889720061428416373343200437382087705581198547064529225\ 3550459291381331398851539017358529182374094989392063289433103469274152\ 6205674885141662403202143111832441851107463071300551009443599065490731\ 4652447357070704841164487732891937439483160046299522548952919047375542\ 1596882234816026329795540042590173007601641561398620919208634918060613\ 2621241140211894019420900505496225806614635801683076455586945239225701\ 8538812059410157575101186908723092259939204970874689912629685428920404\ 4077613144175923580434854886193797803777168194869650177972994520299274\ 2708534660020398310621495922409002440038789999118300472972282788357343\ 5925396360900365327574891133946679268472191285160158273673577663775256\ 4576141238441649390326877239665074370230630060419837956338016233599900\ 0576 give or take a few googols. Shouldn't take long to try all of those on a Sam. Just remember to put the Sam in a warm place (got to defend against those Ice Ages, ya know) and pay for a reliable maintenance contract for your UPS. /; from "stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl" at May 18, 95 12:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 3194 Lines: 65 And here's the polite non-confrontational discussion-type reply to this message. On Thu, 18 May 95 00:23:50 -0600, stefan.drissen@tic.iaf.nl said: > Therefore a LD HL,nn takes 12 t-states, 10 in theory > plus 2 for the 2 N's. I still haven't worked this out for all commands and > even for the ones I thought I had figured out when I wanted to calculate how > many instructions I could use before dumping out the next sample byte > I would be so happy if someone could > come up with a SAM emulator type of thing defining exactly how and WHEN the > instructions are executed etc. Most of the instructions are predictable. In fact there are only one or two that disobey the rule of "round up to the next multiple of 4". Of course we are talking about when the border is being drawn or when the screen is turned off, because the instructions go even slower at other times. The differences I've found so far are the block instructions and DJNZ and PUSH. The block instructions are a bit unpredictable, because for example a normal LDIR takes 4 T-states per byte longer than it does if you place the destination in ROM. In general though LDI takes 20 and LDIR takes 24 if I remember correctly, and the same for OUTI and OTIR. If you think that the main job of LD HL,nn is a fetch+decode cycle and two more fetches then it is obvious that it should take 10 cycles and actually takes 12, because the fetch+decode cycle always takes 4, and subsequent fetches and stores usually take 3. On the Sam it still takes 3, but you have to wait until the next multiple of 4 before you do it. So that's 4, then 3, then wait 1, then 3, then wait 1 before the next instruction - 12 in total. In the case of DJNZ I assume we usually have the fetch+decode (4) then the decrement (1) then another fetch (3) then if B>0 a jump (5). On the Sam this translates to 4+1+wait3+3+wait1 which is 12, if B=0, or 4+1+wait3+3+5 which is 16, otherwise. However it is unclear to me why PUSH should take 11 normally or 16 on the Sam. > As to the slowest instruction, how about the following combination: With respect sir we were talking about instructions, not combinations. The HALT instruction does not count, because it might only take 4 cycles if you execute it at the right time. > JR $ > JP $ > DJNZ $ These only take 12 each, or 16 in the case of DJNZ. The fact that they then repeat themselves is immaterial. > or for the grand finale, the one that does it every time: > LDIR This only takes 21, and the fact that it then repeats itself and crashes the machine is immaterial. > SAM C might have been written like this. Which brings me onto SAM C. Funny > that everyone is blowing it out of the water and coming up with all these > improvements AFTER it was released. Uptil it being announced I have never > heard a soul whisper about C on the SAM... Then you weren't listening, because someone claimed to have a C compiler on the Sam many months ago. And the point about improvements AFTER it is released is that we couldn't possibly point out improvements before it had been released because we didn't know what it was like! imc From imc Thu May 18 12:20:11 1995 Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 95 12:20:11 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Geoff Winkless" at May 18, 95 11:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 663 Lines: 23 On Thu, 18 May 1995 11:35:06 +0100, Geoff Winkless said: > > ld a,(hl) ; see below > inc a ; see below > ld (hl),a ; see below... > jr nc, loop1 > ld bc,24576 > ;bc has got to 0 -- hit the end of the screen... > > ;now if (hl)=0, it's finished... ; Forget that. You have finished if and only if you fall off the end ; of the screen. > and I _probably_ should have used > inc (hl) but I can't for the _life_ of me remember if it changes the C flag > and I don't have my databook to hand... It doesn't. And neither does inc a. They both set the zero flag though, so use that instead. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 12:30:40 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 12:22:19 +0100 Message-Id: <3139.9505181122@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: The Hog's Back! And this time, he ain't happy! X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 738 Lines: 16 Um, last night I thought I'd try and stick an E-tune on top of my star-field, and I had been warned that it would probably go over the 1 frame rate at the end of every pattern. But mine just seemed to jump all the time, odd huh? (not really, just bad coding on my behalf) Originally I had the E-tune at (65536+16384) and my starfield routine at 65536, but this just crashed when I called it (god knows why), so I put the E-tune in another page, and paged Hi-Men from the screen to the E-tune every frame, called it and paged it back. Anny ideas what is happening? I'm pretty sure my routine ain't at fault, as it ticks over quite speedily. (I am using the Index Register though, is this a particularly slow register?) Thanks, Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 12:33:44 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505181110.AA25550@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:10:14 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Geoff Winkless" at May 18, 95 11:35:06 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1194 Lines: 56 > Hmmmm... quite simple. > > Skipping the paging parts, assuming you have code at 16384-32767 and screen > at 32768-65535, and ROM0 at 0-16383.... > > loop1: > ld b,50 ; this will sometimes give slightly more than a second, > ; cos the code below will take some time to execute > halt ; interrupts must be enabled. If you like, you could > ; replace this with a scan-line check > djnz $-1 > ld hl,32768 > > ld a,(hl) ; see below > inc a ; see below > ld (hl),a ; see below... > jr nc, loop1 > ld bc,24576 > loop3: > inc hl > ld a,(hl) ; > inc a ; > ld (hl),a ; ditto > jr nc, loop1 > dec bc > ld a,b > or c > jr nz, loop3 > ;bc has got to 0 -- hit the end of the screen... > > ;now if (hl)=0, it's finished... > ld a,(hl) > or a > ret z > jr loop1 Coudn't it been done even simpler? loop1 ld hl,(32768+24576-1) loop2 inc (hl) jr nc, loop2 loop3 dec hl inc (hl) jr nc,loop3 bit 6,h ; or 'ld a,h; or a,127' jr nz,loop1 ret Why wait for screen update? You won't bother to see them all anyway :) -Frode 'not flaming' -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 12:37:43 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 12:32:49 +0100 Message-Id: <3168.9505181132@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 197 Lines: 11 > > BTW Graham - I am soooo proud that you have risen to the heights of assembly. > Does this mean the end of does awful spectrummy basic games!!! Please!!!! > Nope, tough titty. :) Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 13:03:59 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 12:59:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: goringgn -- "The Hog's Back! And this time, he ain't happy!" (May 18, 12:22pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Hog's Back! And this time, he ain't happy! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1083 Lines: 23 On May 18, 12:22pm in "The Hog's Back! And this time, he ain't happy!", you warbled: ] Um, last night I thought I'd try and stick an E-tune on top of my star-field, ] and I had been warned that it would probably go over the 1 frame rate at the ] end of every pattern. But mine just seemed to jump all the time, odd huh? ] (not really, just bad coding on my behalf) Jump all the time... now ain't that strange? :-) ] Originally I had the E-tune at (65536+16384) and my starfield routine at 65536, ] but this just crashed when I called it (god knows why), so I put the E-tune ] in another page, and paged Hi-Men from the screen to the E-tune every frame, ] called it and paged it back. Anny ideas what is happening? I'm pretty sure my ] routine ain't at fault, as it ticks over quite speedily. Probably the e-tune code needs to be in page C. This is just bad coding for such a simple piece of code. Whoever wrote it needs to re-write it. ] (I am using the Index Register though, is this a particularly slow register?) Yes, very much so. Don't use it, if you can help it. Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 13:15:26 1995 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:08:43 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Taylor X-Sender: sct1000@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Happy as a big hog (grat.long.title deleted) In-Reply-To: <9505180850.AA08915@dxmint.cern.ch> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1443 Lines: 30 On Thu, 18 May 1995, Allan Skillman wrote: > Actually LERM works fine for developing Driver stuff - the 256K version > doesn't disturb the Driver pages (probably by acident I admit) and it leaves > pages 1 and 2 undisturbed for the application. As I said before it also uses > the same source format as the Zeus assembler on the Spectrum - so I can just > transfer my old code across. Doesn't let you write much code, though, in only two pages: i would suggest doing an OPEN TO 10 (or whatever) to protect the lerm code. > > Any progress on Driver V2 Steve? Er.. not really. I had a really good environment working, a high-level language compiler to create applications and it only needed another couple of months before it was finished. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll get the chance: I don't have my sam here (wouldn't have the time to do it anyway) and I'll be working (probably here) during the summer. It's a shame 'cos it was infinitely better than v1, with a windoze/X crossover style layout, support for different screen modes (including interlaced, Midget etc) and visible multi-tasking... +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Taylor sct1000@cam.ac.uk | | Pembroke College http://nikita.pem.cam.ac.uk/sct1000/ | | Cambridge CB2 1RF | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 13:18:46 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:02:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: Ian.Collier -- "Re: Weekly ramble..." (May 18, 1:20pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 821 Lines: 28 On May 18, 1:20pm in "Re: Weekly ramble...", you warbled: ] Forget that. You have finished if and only if you fall off the end ] of the screen. Oh yeah... stupidity. In fact, that was how I had it originally, but I added that code right at the end because I decided it wouldn't work otherwise... *sigh* ] It doesn't. And neither does inc a. They both set the zero flag though, ] so use that instead. *grin* Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I might have to start re-learning z80, the amount of mistakes I make. Suffice it to say that on the ARM increasing a register _does_ affect all the flags... Then again, the only way to increase a register is to add 1, and an add on the Sam _does_ change them :-) Now if you could get inc a to execute in one cycle, you'd have one-up on the ARM systems :) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 13:22:02 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 12:41:53 +0100 Message-Id: <3207.9505181141@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1807 Lines: 41 > > You forget the fact that 8 bits gives 256 combinations. > > You also forget that with 2 bytes you have 256*256 = 65536 bytes. > > All in all: > > > > 24576 ^ 256 == mindboglingly big number. > > About > > 9351187777141846717362003195896738271040212495937994454107040574645424\ > 9245583443144322594038615003054842927068519724841126783110723195570889\ > 8073941758203682829051836783526082116120845407201759722475042071211560\ > 0051820410473294365872119497694873928431555325898826342262468667422042\ > 2852196737838879614366422783973620814238641904863261964446865903186080\ > 7455953887226021889720061428416373343200437382087705581198547064529225\ > 3550459291381331398851539017358529182374094989392063289433103469274152\ > 6205674885141662403202143111832441851107463071300551009443599065490731\ > 4652447357070704841164487732891937439483160046299522548952919047375542\ > 1596882234816026329795540042590173007601641561398620919208634918060613\ > 2621241140211894019420900505496225806614635801683076455586945239225701\ > 8538812059410157575101186908723092259939204970874689912629685428920404\ > 4077613144175923580434854886193797803777168194869650177972994520299274\ > 2708534660020398310621495922409002440038789999118300472972282788357343\ > 5925396360900365327574891133946679268472191285160158273673577663775256\ > 4576141238441649390326877239665074370230630060419837956338016233599900\ > 0576 > > give or take a few googols. > > Shouldn't take long to try all of those on a Sam. Just remember to put the > Sam in a warm place (got to defend against those Ice Ages, ya know) and > pay for a reliable maintenance contract for your UPS. > > / -- > Only kidding You also forgot that you may only have 16 colours from the palette of 128. This gives a few more combinations too. Erk! Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 14:47:54 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <26315.9505181316@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 14:16:18 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <3207.9505181141@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "goringgn" at May 18, 95 12:41:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 193 Lines: 7 To Quote goringgn : > You also forgot that you may only have 16 colours from the palette of 128. > This gives a few more combinations too. Erk! Which of course may be flashibg :-) Tim ....@/ From imc Thu May 18 14:52:20 1995 Subject: Re: Weekly ramble... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 95 14:52:20 BST In-Reply-To: <26315.9505181316@titian.ecs.soton.ac.uk>; from "Tim Paveley" at May 18, 95 2:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 412 Lines: 12 On Thu, 18 May 1995 14:16:18 +0100 (BST), Tim Paveley said: > To Quote goringgn : > > You also forgot that you may only have 16 colours from the palette of 128. > > This gives a few more combinations too. Erk! > Which of course may be flashibg :-) Why don't you design it in black and white first - then you can colour it in later. That way you reduce the number of combinations to just 1.68E+14796. :-) imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 15:41:09 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:34:03 +0100 Message-Id: <18622.9505181434@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Hog's Back! And this time, he ain't happy! X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1378 Lines: 32 >On May 18, 12:22pm in "The Hog's Back! And this time, he ain't happy!", you warbled: >] Um, last night I thought I'd try and stick an E-tune on top of my star-field, >] and I had been warned that it would probably go over the 1 frame rate at the >] end of every pattern. But mine just seemed to jump all the time, odd huh? >] (not really, just bad coding on my behalf) > > Jump all the time... now ain't that strange? :-) > >] Originally I had the E-tune at (65536+16384) and my starfield routine at 65536, >] but this just crashed when I called it (god knows why), so I put the E-tune >] in another page, and paged Hi-Men from the screen to the E-tune every frame, >] called it and paged it back. Anny ideas what is happening? I'm pretty sure my >] routine ain't at fault, as it ticks over quite speedily. > > Probably the e-tune code needs to be in page C. This is just bad coding > for such a simple piece of code. Whoever wrote it needs to re-write it. Is sticking it in page C a universally accepted standard amonst demo coders then? And call me Mr. Thicky but page C is 49152-65535 right? Urg, I am beginning to hate coding (and I ain't even started properly yet. :) ) >] (I am using the Index Register though, is this a particularly slow register?) > > Yes, very much so. Don't use it, if you can help it. That shouldn't be too hard. > Geoff Thanks, Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 15:41:55 1995 From: Tim Paveley Message-Id: <7925.9505181408@monet.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Subject: Ultimate Screen Designer (Was Re: Weekly ramble...) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:08:41 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505181352.AA19413@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 18, 95 03:52:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 312 Lines: 9 To Quote Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk : > Why don't you design it in black and white first - then you can colour > it in later. That way you reduce the number of combinations to just > 1.68E+14796. :-) Ah, but it takes the amount of colours down from 16 to 2. Perhaps just using a nice grey scale? Tim ....@/ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 18:40:40 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 18:35:17 +0100 Message-Id: <1157.9505181735@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Annoyed Hog update report... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 878 Lines: 18 Well, I took page C (I use numbers) to mean 49152, and I tried running the E-tune from there, but this just crashes it, even from BASIC. So then I tried the E-tune in the 32768-49151 slot, and it sounded faster in BASIC. So I compared running it at 65536 with running it at 32768. The tune at 65536 took 45 seconds at full pelt to run through, and the tune at 32768 took just 36 seconds at full speed. Blimey I thought, so I tried running the tune at 32768 in conjunction with my star-field. Ack! Still jumpy. I think it might be because I have a slow starfield, so I am going to use a palette changing test to see. What I want to know is, if I am to change the palette, should I page in the 16384-32767 area and poke 21976 there, or is the palette stored after the screen somewhere? If so, where? Help! Note, all the interrupts are Disabled, in case that helps... Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 18:45:41 1995 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 18:15:27 +0100 (BST) From: Steve Taylor X-Sender: sct1000@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Hog's Back! And this time, he ain't happy! In-Reply-To: <18622.9505181434@sun.aston.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 861 Lines: 20 On Thu, 18 May 1995, goringgn wrote: > > Probably the e-tune code needs to be in page C. This is just bad coding > > for such a simple piece of code. Whoever wrote it needs to re-write it. > > Is sticking it in page C a universally accepted standard amonst demo coders > then? And call me Mr. Thicky but page C is 49152-65535 right? Urg, I am > beginning to hate coding (and I ain't even started properly yet. :) ) Okay Mr Thicky (you fell into this one) page C is 8000h-bfffh, page D is c000h-ffffh. E-tunes only run at 8000h. +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Taylor sct1000@cam.ac.uk | | Pembroke College http://nikita.pem.cam.ac.uk/sct1000/ | | Cambridge CB2 1RF | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 18 23:26:30 1995 From: goringgn Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 23:06:12 +0100 Message-Id: <1779.9505182206@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2320 Lines: 69 Hello all, Sorry for anyone without the slightest interest in coding or anything, but I thought I'd post the prog to see if there were any glaringly obvious mistakes. Note, at start of routine, E-Tune is a 32768 and this bit is at 65536. Also Interrupts are disabled, and the E-Tune has been set up by calling 32768. And a 100 byte Stack exists. Also, please do not pick holes in it, it's just about my first program, and as I far as I am concerned, it works (to an extent, minus the E-Tune). And for clarity, the contents of (IX+0) and (IX+1) is the address of the start of the line on which the star appears... (IX+2) is the X is added to it to find the actual address (so it's the X co-ord in effect) and (IX+3) is the speed, ie, what is taken from the stars X-coord every frame... This may be wonky, it's from memory. LD BC,504dec loop_1 IN A,(B) ;Check current scan line of TV CP 191 JP NZ, loop_1 LD BC,50dec ;Number of stars in total LD IX,startable ;IX points to start of stars co-ords etc... main_loop PUSH BC LD L,(IX+0) LD H,(IX+1) ;Load HL with start of line's address. PUSH HL LD B,0 LD C,(IX+2) ;Load BC with X-coord ADD HL,BC ;HL contains star's address LD A,(HL) ;If it's a star then this will contain a CP 15 ;value of 15. This is my masking method, and JP NZ, loop_2 ;it just means no INK 15 on the proper screen LD (HL),0 ;or it'll be destroyed. loop_2 LD A,(IX+3) ;Get star's speed, take it from star's X coord SUB C ;and stick it back in star's main data list. LD (IX+3),A LD C,A POP HL ADD HL,BC ;HL now holds star's new address. LD A,(HL) CP 0 ;Check contents of address, if blank (0) then JP NZ, loop_3 ;alter it to 15 (a star). LD (HL),15 loop_3 INC IX INC IX INC IX INC IX ;IX now points to next star in table. POP BC DJNZ main_loop LD A,1 OUT A,(251) ;Page in E-tune. CALL 32774 ;Call E-Tune. IN A,(252) AND 31 OUT A,(251) ;Page screen back into higher memory. JP loop_1 And I think that's it. Looking at it now, an obvious improvement to the speed could be made by replacing the Index Register with DE, as this ain't altered at all in my routine. But, can you seen why it goes all wonky with an E-Tune playing??? I can't. Bugger. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 19 09:45:15 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 09:30:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: goringgn -- "The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program..." (May 18, 11:06pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2924 Lines: 105 On May 18, 11:06pm in "The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program...", you warbled: ] This may be wonky, it's from memory. Right. First off, you seem to have made somewhat of a mistake as regards Paging. When someone says code has to be in part C, they mean you have to page it in to the (251) slot -- ie it can be anywhere in memory, you just have to page it in! Do you have the technical manuals? If not, they're well worth it. ] LD BC,504dec ] loop_1 IN A,(B) ;Check current scan line of TV Or even (c) :) I expect this is a typo... ] CP 191 ] JP NZ, loop_1 Oooooh. Well done! Using a JP instead of a jr! I still forget... :-) ] LD A,1 ] OUT A,(251) ;Page in E-tune. ] CALL 32774 ;Call E-Tune. Hmmmm.... ] IN A,(252) ] AND 31 ] OUT A,(251) ;Page screen back into higher memory. Right. First off, a minor hint: for paging in screen, you should do the following: in a,(251) and 240 ld aregister,a in a,(252) and 15 or aregister out (252),a This makes the upper bits of (251) unaffected... there is a reason for this but I can't remember what it is :-) However... since this value is constant, it's best to store it in memory so you don't have to work it out every frame, so at the beginning of the code I'd recommend: in a,(251) and 240 ld b,a in a,(252) and 15 or b ld (screenout), a and at the bottom where you have your IN A,(252) bit from above... screenoutmin1: ld a,0 out (251),a Then at the end... screenout EQU screenoutmin1+1 (horrible hacks ahoy!) ] And I think that's it. Looking at it now, an obvious improvement to the speed ] could be made by replacing the Index Register with DE, as this ain't altered ] at all in my routine. Hmmm. I was truly horrible when I wrote my starfield... I decided that the quickest way of getting lots of stuff out of memory was to use the Stack Pointer... ;-) ] But, can you seen why it goes all wonky with an E-Tune playing??? I'm afraid I have no idea. Probably it's just too slow. Your report about "jumping" is a classic example of this: what will happen is that the scan-line will go past your 191 _just_ before you check for it, and so you will spend an extra frame looping round... What _I_ do is to cheat a little, and to check for 188, and then if it's _greater than_ that, to continue... that gives you a 3-line leeway... ] I can't. Bugger. The only other 'possible' I can think of is that the E-tune messes up some registers. Only Steffan can tell us that! One other note about paging: if I were you and I had a piece of code that insisted on playing in page C (which is disgusting) I would stick my code in the same 32k block if possible, just after the E-tune - thus your code would also be running in page C, and you wouldn't have to piss about paging all the time. It would mean you'd have to use pages AB for your screen access though... swings and roundabouts... :-) Hope some of this is some use... Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 19 10:24:26 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Fri, 19 May 95 10:21:36 BST Message-Id: <27313.9505190921@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Annoyed Hog update report... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 153 Lines: 8 Steve Taylor said: > E-tunes only run at 8000h It depends where you compile them to (with the E-tune compiler), I always tend to use c000h. Colin P. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 19 13:29:12 1995 From: goringgn Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 13:13:56 +0100 Message-Id: <1236.9505191213@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 240 Lines: 7 So then, I want to test for the timing of my starfield. Again, where should I poke the palette? At 21976? Or after the screen? If after the screen, then where the hell is the palette stored after the screen? Answers on a postcard. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 19 14:02:02 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 13:28:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: goringgn -- "Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program..." (May 19, 1:13pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 536 Lines: 17 ] So then, I want to test for the timing of my starfield. Again, where should I ] poke the palette? At 21976? Or after the screen? If after the screen, then where ] the hell is the palette stored after the screen? Oh, sorry. I was going to mention this and forgot! The palette is only stored in memory by basic. The machine actually holds the palette in colour registers. Basically, colour 0 is out (248), n, colour 1 is out (248+256), n etc etc. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone with a Tech. manual will correct me!! Cheers Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 21 13:01:15 1995 From: David Zambonini To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 13:00:02 GMT Subject: Re: Um, Games? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-Id: <5D214F40BF@physx1s.cf.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 298 Lines: 14 > Outta curiosity, is anyone writing ay games for the SAM at the moment? > > Just tryin' to keep abreast of current events, y'understand... > > Graham > Arp! I've been away for ages... and now.. 94 messages... Ermm.. well, I'll soon be starting a little something for Pheonix... ;) DMZ === From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 12:11:40 1995 Message-Id: <199505221107.NAA04700@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 12:07:18 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 311 Lines: 12 Hey, guess what? In just a little over 1.5 hours, I've got a physics exam, on those twin pillars of modern science -- Electromagnetism and Quantum Mechanics.... oooooooooh... Wish me luck -- please -- I need it ;) Simon (who only revised Electromagnetism, because he can't remember what an operator is) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 12:11:42 1995 Message-Id: <199505221109.NAA04729@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 12:08:34 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <1236.9505191213@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "goringgn" at May 19, 95 01:13:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 446 Lines: 18 > So then, I want to test for the timing of my starfield. Again, where should I > poke the palette? At 21976? Or after the screen? If after the screen, then where > the hell is the palette stored after the screen? poke that palette (if you're leaving interrupts enabled) into: &55D8 and &55D8+20 (to stop flashing) Oh, and to output the palette yourself, LD HL,palette+15 LD BC,&10F8 OTDR (If you've got interrupts disabled that is) Simon From imc Mon May 22 12:17:55 1995 Subject: Re: Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 95 12:17:55 BST In-Reply-To: <199505221107.NAA04700@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no>; from "Simon Cooke" at May 22, 95 12:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 471 Lines: 13 Exams... yes... I think I remember those. :-P On Mon, 22 May 1995 12:07:18 +0100 (BST), Simon Cooke said: > (who only revised Electromagnetism, because he can't remember what an > operator is) It's a self-adjoint transformation on the probability space. Any fool knows that. :-) imc (who just half an hour ago had 8 paranoid students on his hands because they needed to hand them in to the examiners at noon and one of the demonstrators had only just marked them) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 12:36:38 1995 From: Robert Partington Message-Id: <9505221133.AA02841@n6i.cs.man.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 12:33:46 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <199505221107.NAA04700@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at May 22, 95 12:07:18 pm Risc-Header: ARMed X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 200 Lines: 11 > Wish me luck -- please -- I need it ;) GOOD LUCK! I've got 3 of my finals left : Parallel programming (!), Neural Networks (!), and Operating Systems (!!). I need more than luck... Rob (lurker) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 12:47:33 1995 Message-Id: <9505221142.AA03966@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 95 13:42:01 METDST In-Reply-To: <199505221107.NAA04700@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no>; from "Simon Cooke" at May 22, 95 12:07 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 150 Lines: 7 Good Luck Simon BTW if its any help there IS life after physics exams (beleive me I've had them all) Allan (physics is not all exams!) Skillman -- From imc Mon May 22 12:50:29 1995 Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 95 12:50:29 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Geoff Winkless" at May 19, 95 9:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 265 Lines: 9 On Fri, 19 May 1995 09:30:56 +0100, Geoff Winkless said: > ] JP NZ, loop_1 > Oooooh. Well done! Using a JP instead of a jr! I still forget... :-) Sorry for asking, but could you just tell me why you care? (given that JP and JR are the same speed on a Sam) imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 13:02:01 1995 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <9720.199505221158@cocino.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 12:58:23 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505221150.AA01651@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 22, 95 01:50:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 569 Lines: 18 > > On Fri, 19 May 1995 09:30:56 +0100, Geoff Winkless said: > > ] JP NZ, loop_1 > > > Oooooh. Well done! Using a JP instead of a jr! I still forget... :-) > > Sorry for asking, but could you just tell me why you care? > (given that JP and JR are the same speed on a Sam) Surely JR is quicker, as it has to read less data in the first place? Once it's read the data, the actual execution might be quicker, but since JP has to read 3 bytes, and JR reads 2, then you're saving a whole memory cycle's worth of time!!! And a whole byte of memory, as well!!! Nige From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 13:04:07 1995 Message-Id: <9505221145.AA04368@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman (Dr Kid) Subject: Re: Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 95 13:45:16 METDST In-Reply-To: <9505221117.AA01542@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk>; from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 22, 95 1:17 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 181 Lines: 8 > It's a self-adjoint transformation on the probability space. Any fool knows > that. :-) > Ah - don't tempt me or I'll only start talking about Quantum field theory! Allan -- From imc Mon May 22 13:27:24 1995 Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 95 13:27:24 BST In-Reply-To: <9720.199505221158@cocino.dcs.warwick.ac.uk>; from "Nigel J Kettlewell" at May 22, 95 12:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1328 Lines: 42 On Mon, 22 May 1995 12:58:23 +0100 (BST), Nigel J Kettlewell said: > Surely JR is quicker, as it has to read less data in the first place? > Once it's read the data, the actual execution might be quicker, but since JP > has to read 3 bytes, and JR reads 2, then you're saving a whole memory > cycle's worth of time!!! And a whole byte of memory, as well!!! Well what can I say except... WRONG! On a sensible machine, a JP instruction does this. fetch+decode 4 cycles fetch 3 cycles fetch 3 cycles --------- 10 cycles The jump takes no time since (if the condition is true) the bytes are loaded straight into the PC. A JR does this. fetch+decode 4 cycles fetch 3 cycles if true then jump 5 cycles --------- 12 cycles The jump takes 5 cycles because the CPU has to add a signed 7-bit number to an unsigned 16-bit number using an 8-bit ALU. These 5 cycles are not used if the condition turns out to be false (aside: guess why LDIR takes 5 more cycles when BC>0 than it does when BC=0...). Hence, on a sensible machine, JP is faster even though it takes one more machine cycle. On a Sam, both instructions take 12 because each fetch is restricted by the ASIC to take place at a multiple of 4 clock cycles. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 13:58:52 1995 From: eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 13:43:30 +0100 Message-Id: <15668.199505221243@csgi06.scs.leeds.ac.uk> To: sam-users%nvg.unit.no@gps.leeds.ac.uk Subject: Re: Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture) X-Mailer: [XMailTool v3.1.0] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 475 Lines: 20 --------- Received message begins Here --------- > > In just a little over 1.5 hours, I've got a physics exam, on those twin > pillars of modern science -- Electromagnetism and Quantum Mechanics.... > oooooooooh... > > Wish me luck -- please -- I need it ;) Good Luck!! I hope I'm still in time... > Simon > (who only revised Electromagnetism, because he can't remember what an > operator is) Cheers, Arne ---------- Arne Di Russo From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 14:50:39 1995 From: goringgn Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:49:17 +0100 Message-Id: <537.9505221349@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Happy Hogs Ahoy! X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 745 Lines: 16 First of all, thanks Ian for defending my decision to use JP instead of JR. As it happens it was a mistake, but C'est La Vie. And sorry for griping about mines games, as I played SAM Mines again on this weekend (Colin A brought it over) and it is indeed a superior game. Your brother said it had 8 samples, um, I can only find 4 ("Wrongability" bit, "Goodbye", an odd "Eep!" one and one other). Oh well. I tracked down the problem with the star-field. Lee Willis actually noticed the mistake as I chatted to him over the phone. Call yourself programmers? Tsk! Not ONE of you spotted that I was using BC as a star counter in the routine and DJNZ to loop it. When I should have been using just the B register. Silly mistake, I know. :) Graham From imc Mon May 22 14:58:57 1995 Subject: Re: Happy Hogs Ahoy! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 95 14:58:57 BST In-Reply-To: <537.9505221349@sun.aston.ac.uk>; from "goringgn" at May 22, 95 2:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 1024 Lines: 28 On Mon, 22 May 1995 14:49:17 +0100, goringgn said: > Your brother said it had 8 samples, um, > I can only find 4 ("Wrongability" bit, "Goodbye", an odd "Eep!" one and one > other). Oh well. They are (in no particular order): The sound you get when you mark a mine T.s.y.g.w. a mine spontaneously moves ... you activate the randomiser you blow yourself up you complete the minefield you get a high score you quit you select the "help" menu item. At least one of these sounds like you could easily make it with the Sam's sound chip without going to the trouble of sampling it, but there you go. None of these is an "Eep!"... > Call yourself programmers? Well I only got around to that bit of mail this morning, and as Mars had already answered it I ignored it. So it's not surprising that I missed that error... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 15:17:18 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505221358.AA00936@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 15:58:16 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <9505221227.AA01736@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 22, 95 02:27:25 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1307 Lines: 50 > WRONG! Something else is wrong here. > > On a sensible machine, a JP instruction does this. > > fetch+decode 4 cycles > fetch 3 cycles > fetch 3 cycles > --------- > 10 cycles With rounding this adds up to 12. Correct. > > The jump takes no time since (if the condition is true) the bytes are > loaded straight into the PC. > > A JR does this. > > fetch+decode 4 cycles > fetch 3 cycles > if true then jump 5 cycles > --------- > 12 cycles With rouding this adds up to 13. Or will the 3+5 be 'evened out' as it adds up to 8? > > The jump takes 5 cycles because the CPU has to add a signed 7-bit number to > an unsigned 16-bit number using an 8-bit ALU. These 5 cycles are not used > if the condition turns out to be false (aside: guess why LDIR takes 5 more > cycles when BC>0 than it does when BC=0...). > > Hence, on a sensible machine, JP is faster even though it takes one more > machine cycle. > > On a Sam, both instructions take 12 because each fetch is restricted by the > ASIC to take place at a multiple of 4 clock cycles. > > imc > -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 16:48:09 1995 Message-Id: <199505221527.RAA06323@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Exams -- the verdict.. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 16:26:39 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 782 Lines: 23 First of all, thanks for the encouragement :) GOOD LUCK! to Rob Partington in his finals... and... the verdict on mine? Well, oh wow... an easy question on the photoelectric effect (but I screwed up the work function bit)... the rest? WEll, considering that I didn't revise the Quantum stuff in favour of the E-M stuff, I'm a little disappointed that I got no questions on Dielectrics, dipoles or antyhing like that... is it too much to ask? But, no... all I got was radiation this and radiation that... do a waveguide for me... do a radiating charge travelling in a field of uniform B... blag blah blah blah blah.... Still... I guess I can pick up marks on the Short problems and multiple choice section... pah... :) Simon ps Still, you've gotta laugh, aintcha? :) From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 18:13:12 1995 From: Mr Andrew M Gale Message-Id: <9505221706.AA03637@central.surrey.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Exams -- the verdict.. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 95 18:06:36 BST In-Reply-To: <199505221527.RAA06323@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no>; from "Simon Cooke" at May 22, 95 4:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 343 Lines: 16 > > ps Still, you've gotta laugh, aintcha? :) > I wouldn't laugh if I was doing Physics. Do a proper subject like Electrical Engineering and spend your days with a feeling of complete fulfillment! -AG ps: I know this particularly sad physicist who used to edit a disc magazine called Ence..... you're not reading this are you Bertie?! From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 18:56:24 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 18:45:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: Simon.Cooke -- "Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture)" (May 22, 12:07pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 322 Lines: 12 On May 22, 12:07pm in "Exams (Oh joy Oh rapture)", you warbled: ] (who only revised Electromagnetism, because he can't remember what an ] operator is) Well this afternoon I just walked through a Compiler Construction exam. :-) Did I _know_ there was going to be a table-driven-parsing question... Oh yes... :-) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 19:37:42 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 19:29:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: frodet -- "Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program..." (May 22, 3:58pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 442 Lines: 16 On May 22, 3:58pm in "Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program...", you warbled: ] With rouding this adds up to 13. Or will the 3+5 be 'evened out' as ] it adds up to 8? Ahhhhh... What you're talking about is internal processor cycles. The ASIC only rounds up on bus accesses (I _think_)... However, it's quite possible that I'm thoroughly wrong... I have a Real-Time- Systems final tomorrow, and it's getting me down... Cheers Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Mon May 22 21:54:24 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505222052.AA02277@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 22:52:50 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Geoff Winkless" at May 22, 95 07:29:16 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 859 Lines: 32 > > On May 22, 3:58pm in "Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program...", you warbled: > ] With rouding this adds up to 13. Or will the 3+5 be 'evened out' as > ] it adds up to 8? > > Ahhhhh... > > What you're talking about is internal processor cycles. The ASIC only rounds > up on bus accesses (I _think_)... >> A JR does this. >> >> fetch+decode 4 cycles >> fetch 3 cycles >> if true then jump 5 cycles >> --------- >> 12 cycles Two bus accesses at 4 each + 5 = 13? > > However, it's quite possible that I'm thoroughly wrong... I have a Real-Time- > Systems final tomorrow, and it's getting me down... Good luck. -Frode 'finished his finals last semester' -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From imc Tue May 23 10:23:32 1995 Subject: Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 23 May 95 10:23:32 BST In-Reply-To: <9505222052.AA02277@wwwlab.cern.ch>; from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 22, 95 10:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 2145 Lines: 50 On Mon, 22 May 1995 22:52:50 +0200 (MET DST), Frode Tenneboe said: > > > > On May 22, 3:58pm in "Re: The Annoyed Hog's Problematic Program...", you warbled: > > ] With rouding this adds up to 13. Or will the 3+5 be 'evened out' as > > ] it adds up to 8? I _know_ I've seen the above-quoted mail before, but for some reason it is now no longer to be found anywhere in my mailbox. That perhaps explains why I didn't answer it the first time (makes me wonder whether there are some other mails out there that have been zapped...). > >> A JR does this. > >> > >> fetch+decode 4 cycles > >> fetch 3 cycles > >> if true then jump 5 cycles > >> --------- > >> 12 cycles > Two bus accesses at 4 each + 5 = 13? A bus access takes 3 cycles, but only starts at a multiple of 4. So if the condition is false, we get fetch+decode 4 cycles fetch 3 cycles taking 7. However, the next instruction must obviously begin with a fetch, so there is 1 wait state before the next instruction. If we were watching from outside, we would think that the wait state occurred at the end of the JR rather than at the beginning of the next instruction. Thus a JR takes 8 cycles when the condition is false. If the condition is true, then the above applies to make 12 cycles. This time, the thing just after the second fetch is not a memory access, so it starts immediately after the third cycle of the fetch. The instruction INC HL contains only the one fetch to read the instruction, but it takes 6 cycles in total. The next instruction cannot be fetched for another 2 cycles, so we say that INC HL takes 8 cycles. Now this instruction has an interesting property, which I used in my improved version of the VMPR scrolly in my brother's demo. If the CPU is running while the screen is being displayed then bus accesses are only allowed every 8 cycles (but they still finish in 3 cycles). But the next multiple of 8 after an INC HL instruction is just 8. Hence the instruction INC HL takes the same amount of time whether the screen is being displayed or not. Clear? imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 24 13:17:47 1995 From: "G.L. Burtenshaw" Message-Id: <10104.199505241205@hawk.le.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Exams -- the verdict.. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 13:05:57 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505221706.AA03637@central.surrey.ac.uk> from "Mr Andrew M Gale" at May 22, 95 06:06:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 607 Lines: 23 > > > > > ps Still, you've gotta laugh, aintcha? :) > > > > I wouldn't laugh if I was doing Physics. > Do a proper subject like Electrical Engineering and spend your > days with a feeling of complete fulfillment! > > -AG > > ps: I know this particularly sad physicist who used to edit a > disc magazine called Ence..... you're not reading this are you > Bertie?! > > > sod off wanker. I've got about 600 mailing list messages to delete and choosing one at random to look at I find nothing but abuse. Stop fooling around with soldering irons and get down to some hard-core quantum mechanics :) GB From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 24 13:44:20 1995 From: gaw-a@ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk Message-Id: >From: gaw-a@minster.york.ac.uk (Geoff Winkless) Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 13:29:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: glb2 -- "Re: Exams -- the verdict.." (May 24, 1:05pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92 (ORBIT)) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Exams -- the verdict.. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 299 Lines: 10 On May 24, 1:05pm in "Re: Exams -- the verdict..", Graham warbled: ] Stop fooling around with soldering irons and get down to some hard-core ] quantum mechanics :) Completely off the subject... I didn't know you were at Leicester, Graham... How is it down there? (my home town, yasee...) Geoff From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 24 18:21:35 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505241650.AA04735@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: ftp To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 18:50:12 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1173 Lines: 31 Hi! Just an update on the ftp-site. There are noe more than 34Mb of files there. I _think_ most of it should be in apropriate directories. There are however some files in incoming that might need some moving: -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 241481 Jan 20 14:25 TREATY.ARC -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 2963 Jan 23 13:50 bc-disk1.bba -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 5968 Jan 23 16:42 convrt.pak -rw-rw-r-- 1 ftp ftpadmin 38306 May 10 18:57 e-demo.zip -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 128 Jan 30 13:38 hyper.diz -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 10018 Jan 30 13:38 hyper.pak -rw-rw-r-- 1 ftp ftpadmin 7796 Apr 21 10:03 lib30.zip -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 3306 Jan 23 16:41 prntfx.pak -rw-rw-r-- 1 ftp ftpadmin 28721 May 10 18:58 zub.zip Any ideas? Also, if there are stuff that are not correctly placed, please let me know. Uploads are still welcome. Oh! And if somebody could bother to do FRED? We allowed to have all the issues except the last 12 (one year worth). TIA -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From imc Thu May 25 11:11:03 1995 Subject: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects To: sam-users@mvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 95 11:11:04 BST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 126 Lines: 4 I hope you were all watching The Net on Monday, because those musical insects would be a great idea for a Sam program... imc From imc Thu May 25 11:14:23 1995 Subject: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 95 11:14:23 BST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 197 Lines: 4 I hope you were all watching The Net on Monday, because those musical insects would be a great idea for a Sam program... imc [let's hope it gets there now that I've spelt the address properly...] From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 25 11:16:46 1995 From: "Doore, Dan [MIS]" To: sam-users Subject: RE: ftp Date: Thu, 25 May 95 09:08:00 PDT Message-Id: <2FC4AB2B@courier.lmu.ac.uk> Encoding: 8 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 213 Lines: 8 > Uploads are still welcome. Oh! And if somebody could bother > to do FRED? We allowed to have all the issues except the > last 12 (one year worth). I'll do it, providing Colin Macd doesn't mind it. Dan Doore. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 25 12:14:52 1995 From: mcscs3cgm@vaxd.dct.ac.uk Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 12:09:19 GMT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <00990E20.D3D32F53.75@vaxd.dct.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 132 Lines: 5 I'm sure FRED would be interested in a publishing deal if anyone came up with a decent version of those musical insects....... CM From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 25 12:32:17 1995 Message-Id: <199505251112.NAA31674@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Re: ftp To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 12:11:41 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <9505241650.AA04735@wwwlab.cern.ch> from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 24, 95 06:50:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1228 Lines: 28 > Just an update on the ftp-site. There are noe more than > 34Mb of files there. I _think_ most of it should be > in apropriate directories. There are however some files > in incoming that might need some moving: > -rw-rw-r-- 1 ftp ftpadmin 38306 May 10 18:57 e-demo.zip > -rw-rw-r-- 1 ftp ftpadmin 28721 May 10 18:58 zub.zip Okay.. the two above should be in the Entropy section of the demos area... > -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 128 Jan 30 13:38 hyper.diz > -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 10018 Jan 30 13:38 hyper.pak > -rw-rw-r-- 1 ftp ftpadmin 7796 Apr 21 10:03 lib30.zip > -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 3306 Jan 23 16:41 prntfx.pak And AFAIK, all these should be in the Utils section. LIB 30 is an update to one of the files in the original disk utils section, hyper is Milan Salajka's hypertext viewer, PRNTFX.PAK is a DRIVER printer extension by Allan Skillman. > Uploads are still welcome. Oh! And if somebody could bother > to do FRED? We allowed to have all the issues except the > last 12 (one year worth). I'll let Dan handle them, but according to Bob Brenchley, SCADS is now in the Public Domain, so that'll be going up on the site tomorrow... Simon From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 25 12:39:38 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505251137.AA05082@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 13:37:48 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <00990E20.D3D32F53.75@vaxd.dct.ac.uk> from "mcscs3cgm@vaxd.dct.ac.uk" at May 25, 95 12:09:19 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 298 Lines: 12 > > > I'm sure FRED would be interested in a publishing deal if anyone > came up with a decent version of those musical insects....... _What_ musical insects? -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From imc Thu May 25 12:43:01 1995 Subject: Re: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 95 12:43:01 BST In-Reply-To: <9505251137.AA05082@wwwlab.cern.ch>; from "Frode Tenneboe" at May 25, 95 1:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 306 Lines: 10 On Thu, 25 May 1995 13:37:48 +0200 (MET DST), Frode Tenneboe said: > _What_ musical insects? Don't you get the BBC at Cern, or is it just that you didn't see my earlier message? :-) Take a look at http://www.bbcnc.org.uk/bbctv/the_net/thisweek/toshio.html and read the bit about "Music Insects"... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 25 14:04:53 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505251247.AA05133@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: ftp To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 14:47:51 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <2FC4AB2B@courier.lmu.ac.uk> from "Doore, Dan [MIS]" at May 25, 95 09:08:00 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 537 Lines: 20 > > > > Uploads are still welcome. Oh! And if somebody could bother > > to do FRED? We allowed to have all the issues except the > > last 12 (one year worth). > > I'll do it, providing Colin Macd doesn't mind it. Ah. Misunderstanding here. Only the first 12 issues (which are already there) are allowed on ftp. Sorry about that, guys (and you Colin). Cheers -Frode P.S.: Where _are_ the gals anyway...? -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 25 14:11:25 1995 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <27288.199505251310@stone.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 14:09:59 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <24384.9505251152@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> from "Colin G Piggot" at May 25, 95 12:52:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 23 > > Err, what exactly are these 'musical insects' ???? > > Colin P. > They were very cool - these little blobs (the insects) wandered around the screen until they hit a wall, when they did something, like turn around or turn left etc. Different coloured walls made them do different things, and also each coloured wall had a different sound associated with it, so that if an insect hit, say, a grey wall it would turn left and make a drum noise. You could make the insects follow the same path over and over again by putting walls down in the right places, and so set up, for example, a constant drumbeat. Me - I'd just put ant powder down... Nige From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 25 14:15:05 1995 From: Colin G Piggot Date: Thu, 25 May 95 12:52:19 BST Message-Id: <24384.9505251152@pasta.st-andrews.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: RE: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 61 Lines: 3 Err, what exactly are these 'musical insects' ???? Colin P. From imc Thu May 25 14:19:25 1995 Subject: Re: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 95 14:19:25 BST In-Reply-To: <27288.199505251310@stone.dcs.warwick.ac.uk>; from "Nigel J Kettlewell" at May 25, 95 2:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 728 Lines: 19 On Thu, 25 May 1995 14:09:59 +0100 (BST), Nigel J Kettlewell said: > They were very cool - these little blobs (the insects) wandered around the > screen until they hit a wall, when they did something, like turn around or > turn left etc. Expanded version: most of the colours do not make them turn; they just pass through and play a note. However, white makes them bounce back and light grey makes them turn right. One of the ants (a red one, I believe) is a drummer, so instead of playing notes it plays different drum noises. The ants produce patterns of light as well as sounds when they meet a colour. > Me - I'd just put ant powder down... You are cruel. The musical insects were the best bit of the show, btw. imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Thu May 25 14:46:13 1995 From: Nigel J Kettlewell Message-Id: <28419.199505251328@stone.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 14:28:06 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <9505251319.AA12110@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 25, 95 03:19:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 749 Lines: 30 > Expanded version: most of the colours do not make them turn; they just > pass through and play a note. However, white makes them bounce back and > light grey makes them turn right. One of the ants (a red one, I believe) > is a drummer, so instead of playing notes it plays different drum noises. > > The ants produce patterns of light as well as sounds when they meet a colour. Oh yeah, forgot that bit. > > > Me - I'd just put ant powder down... > > You are cruel. You should see the amount of dead woodlice in our kitchen after we put the stuff down a couple of days ago. I just lost all sympathy for the insect world... > > The musical insects were the best bit of the show, btw. The only decent bit, I thought. > > imc > Nige From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 26 01:15:03 1995 From: eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 01:15:25 +0100 Message-Id: <24805.199505260015@csgi16.scs.leeds.ac.uk> To: sam-users%nvg.unit.no@gps.leeds.ac.uk Subject: Re: ftp X-Mailer: [XMailTool v3.1.0] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 747 Lines: 26 > > -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 2963 Jan 23 13:50 bc-disk1.bba > > Any ideas? This is a short basic program I wrote quite some time ago which creates a compressed disk image file (well actually 2 one for each side of the disk) of a SAM disk. It is a sort of Teledisk for the SAM although it is quite basic. It needs a 512K SAM with Masterbasic (for compression). The file itself is in ASCII format, it can be converted to BASIC either by typing it in manually ;-) or by using a program that does an automatic conversion using the KEYIN command. (I have one I got in the PC-SUITE software package.) > > TIA > -Frode > Cheers, Arne ---------- Arne Di Russo also: From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 26 10:20:27 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505260918.AA07659@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: ftp To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:18:29 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <24805.199505260015@csgi16.scs.leeds.ac.uk> from "eraadr@scs.leeds.ac.uk" at May 26, 95 01:15:25 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1066 Lines: 31 > > > > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 2963 Jan 23 13:50 bc-disk1.bba > > > > Any ideas? > > This is a short basic program I wrote quite some time ago which creates > a compressed disk image file (well actually 2 one for each side of the disk) > of a SAM disk. It is a sort of Teledisk for the SAM although it is quite > basic. It needs a 512K SAM with Masterbasic (for compression). > The file itself is in ASCII format, it can be converted to BASIC either > by typing it in manually ;-) or by using a program that does an automatic > conversion using the KEYIN command. (I have one I got in the PC-SUITE software > package.) Thanks. I'll also try to build one-liners when time permits. There are now two files left. -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 241481 Jan 20 14:25 TREATY.ARC -rw-r--r-- 1 frodet ftpadmin 5968 Jan 23 16:42 convrt.pak I'll move them to .../misc/sam is nobody objects. :) Cheers -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Fri May 26 10:21:11 1995 From: frodet@www1.cern.ch (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9505260919.AA07668@wwwlab.cern.ch> Subject: Re: Toshio Iwai's Music Insects To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:19:24 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <9505251143.AA09540@boothp1.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at May 25, 95 01:43:01 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 391 Lines: 17 > Don't you get the BBC at Cern, or is it just that you didn't see my > earlier message? :-) We don't. :) > > Take a look at http://www.bbcnc.org.uk/bbctv/the_net/thisweek/toshio.html > and read the bit about "Music Insects"... Sounds pretty wierd. -Frode -- Frode Tenneboe, ECP/PT, CERN, CH-1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland frodet@www.cern.ch http://www.himolde.no/~frodet From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat May 27 16:40:23 1995 Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 16:38:35 +0100 (BST) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Comet to ASCII anyone? X-Sender: tgw1001@imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 402 Lines: 11 Has anyone written a program to convert Comet source into ASCII and back again? Otherwise I'll have to get round to writing it myself. Switching subjects, what's prompted this releasing SCADS to PD? Is it that it wasn't selling, so Bob's going to give the program away and try and cash in on sales of the manual? Tim. ------------------- Tim Wells - ------------------------ From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sat May 27 20:39:45 1995 Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 19:49:25 GMT From: Briansam@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff Sam Dept.) Message-Id: <8889@bgserv.demon.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Spectrum on Sam by Fred. X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 262 Lines: 10 Is this right that you are putting out some Spectrum stuff on SAM, Colin? If so, dare I ask who you asked about Copyright etc, as I think I would like to chase them up for Z80. Of course I could have got the wrong idea totally! Brian -- Brian Gaff Sam Dept. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Sun May 28 09:55:24 1995 Message-Id: <199505280853.KAA20617@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Re: Comet to ASCII anyone? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 09:53:20 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at May 27, 95 04:38:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 284 Lines: 7 > Has anyone written a program to convert Comet source into ASCII and back > again? Otherwise I'll have to get round to writing it myself. Yep -- I've done one. I'll post it up on nvg when I get time -- but I'll warn you, it doesn't do it the other way round (ASCII->COMET) Simon From imc Sun May 28 12:04:00 1995 Subject: Re: Comet to ASCII anyone? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 28 May 95 12:04:00 BST In-Reply-To: ; from "Tim Wells" at May 27, 95 4:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 161 Lines: 6 On Sat, 27 May 1995 16:38:35 +0100 (BST), Tim Wells said: > Switching subjects, what's prompted this releasing SCADS to PD? And what _is_ SCADS anyway?... imc From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Tue May 30 12:07:46 1995 Message-Id: <199505301055.MAA02346@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Re: Comet to ASCII anyone? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 11:55:00 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at May 27, 95 04:38:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 539 Lines: 16 > Switching subjects, what's prompted this releasing SCADS to PD? Is it > that it wasn't selling, so Bob's going to give the program away and try > and cash in on sales of the manual? Looks like it... For ian: SCADS is the SAM Coupe Arcade Development System -- kind of like gamesmaster, but it hooks into the error vector, and runs commands that way, via basic. Apparently you could get a basic compiler for their games at one point -- I've seen a game compiled this way anyway, but I don't know if it was ever released. Simon From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 31 08:42:34 1995 From: slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Message-Id: <9505310739.AA04803@namu01.gwdg.de> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Cc: slawek@namu01.gwdg.de Subject: SCADS Date: Wed, 31 May 95 09:39:42 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 92 Lines: 5 Hi, I have download SCADS , but this have error . Can You upload this one more :-) Slawek. From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 31 12:13:54 1995 Message-Id: <199505311111.NAA13278@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Re: SCADS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 12:10:53 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <9505310739.AA04803@namu01.gwdg.de> from "slawek@namu01.gwdg.de" at May 31, 95 09:39:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 167 Lines: 7 > Hi, > I have download SCADS , but this have error . > Can You upload this one more :-) Try SCAD.zip -- the FTP connection got broken on the first attempt... Simon From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 31 14:02:35 1995 From: goringgn Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 14:01:29 +0100 Message-Id: <13333.9505311301@sun.aston.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SCADS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 78 Lines: 4 Cookie, Still cannot unzip it without some checksum problem. Bummer. Graham From sam-users-owner@nvg.unit.no Wed May 31 16:13:45 1995 Message-Id: <199505311444.QAA14830@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Re: SCADS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 15:43:29 +0100 (BST) Cc: simonc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <13333.9505311301@sun.aston.ac.uk> from "goringgn" at May 31, 95 02:01:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 230 Lines: 13 > Cookie, > Still cannot unzip it without some checksum problem. Bummer. Owww pooo... Anybody had any problems with the Zub / EDEMO stuff? If so it's that damned freebie internet sware I got... Will rectify it asap. Simon