From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 13:02:12 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:58:18 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961028075817_1712827038@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Clock Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 264 Lines: 13 In a message dated 28/10/96 12:29:27, you write: >What ever happened to the clock that WC were going to bring out? >We really do need one now that the Sambus is no longer made. > >Still no sign of Z2 fanzine anyone? > > > Will have news in next few days. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 13:02:41 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:57:23 GMT Subject: Re: Sam C - scanf problem - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <25557614613@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 304 Lines: 10 > You are (of course) including the STDIO header... :)) > Dan. I'm crap but I'm not that crap :) No, the problem isn't me (for once) - it seems to be the compiler because I have tried to compile programs that other people have given me, which worked fine on their compiler, and not me. Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 13:16:07 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:08:29 +0100 Message-Id: <96102813082930@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Clock X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 188 Lines: 9 > Still no sign of Z2 fanzine anyone? I wouldn't hold your breath - Dave Ledbury is involved. I'll ask Matt (the editor) what's happening if you like, but I doubt he knows either. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 13:16:38 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:10:12 +0100 Message-Id: <96102813101281@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam C - scanf problem X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 189 Lines: 5 Yeah, SCANF in SAM C. It worked for ages for me, then it suddenly stops recognising it during compilation. It is, however, in the list of commands available (which you can print out). Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 16:25:15 1996 Message-Id: <3274DDEA.1112@warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:23:06 +0000 From: Mr P R Walker X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 248 Lines: 7 A.S. Collier wrote: > become a full operating system, hence the name: WinDOS. If you ask me at > the show, I'll show you the current version. Would have done, but the mail was delayed again. :/ No chance of picking a copy up elsewhere, is there? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 16:26:03 1996 Message-Id: <3274DD58.7210@warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:20:40 +0000 From: Mr P R Walker X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... References: <9610251715.AA03619@booth10.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 263 Lines: 8 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > YYYYYEEEEUUUUUCCCCHHHH! That's what you get for using Pine, I > suppose... So what do you use? Personally I find all of these as bad as each other, but I'm willing to try another... (Might even try NFX on these things...) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 17:27:38 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: show To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:23:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3274DDEA.1112@warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Oct 28, 96 04:23:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 67 Lines: 3 So, is anyone going to give us a rundown of the show then?! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 17:29:58 1996 Posted-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:27:38 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3274E4CA.1FE3@pi.net> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:52:26 +0100 From: "M.Drissen" Organization: Planet Internet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-PI-32 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bits and pieces - Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 526 Lines: 18 Dan Doore wrote: > > > Okay... here I have the C source for the Fred 59 menu, > > lots of text files on SoundBlaster / SBPro, Adlib, GUS, > > etc., and Space Debris. The problem is, I can't remember > > who wanted what... any reminders gratefully received! > > Well, it was me who wanted the C... And I'd love Space Debris (the music that is...) > Dan. Stefan "who's sig got wiped along with 850 meg worth of harddrive due to a mechanical failure - but at least did have a very very good time in Gloucester" Drissen From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 17:30:25 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:27:11 GMT Subject: Re: show Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <259D6C50084@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 246 Lines: 9 > So, is anyone going to give us a rundown of the show then?! > -Andy Yeah!! Quiet day for mails! I was expecting hundreds of mails all about it! Or did you all get into a big fight with each other, just like on the mailing list? :) Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 17:36:49 1996 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:08:46 +0200 From: David Gommeren Subject: HDOS+ To: Sam List In-Reply-To: <961023102337_216651898@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 X-Organization: David Gommeren, Belgium X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.08] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 515 Lines: 13 On Wed 23 Oct, BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > But first, would anyone like to work with Nev on the updated HDOS? If the > HDOS was advanced a little further then it would be easier to consider a more > advanced C compiler as size would no longer be so important as everything > could be hard-drive based. I already offered my services on this one a couple of times (I think). I have written disc-filing systems before (not harddisc though, but I can't really see a difference). David Gommeren (gommerd@interpac.be) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 17:40:12 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:38:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Show report Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 545 Lines: 18 Very short one this, just want to plug a few nice people Colin MacD - Bought me a cup of tea, and pint of cafferys and offered me a lift in his car. Dan Doore - Bought me a pint of cafferys Stefan Drissen - also bought me some cafferys which was very nice of them all, especailly since I had to go and catch a train before it reached my round :) Tim .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 18:47:36 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:44:35 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: New files In-Reply-To: <9610280738.AA16540@asmal.edh-net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 241 Lines: 9 On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Frode Tenneboe wrote: > file? I don't like the idea of another file-format. Why didn't you say so earlier??! I did propose this more than two weeks ago! Anyway, everything should be true and very easy to use. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 19:02:27 1996 From: "j.d.teare" Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:56:24 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Sam C - scanf problem Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <83EF2D0BAB@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 449 Lines: 12 Hello all, > Yeah, SCANF in SAM C. It worked for ages for me, then it suddenly stops > recognising it during compilation. It is, however, in the list of commands > available (which you can print out). > Exactly the same problem in this end, I'm afraid. Is there any justifiable explanation for it? I mean, none of the code on the disk could have been altered because my ORIGINAl copy is write-protected and does the same thing. Help... Johnna From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 19:02:27 1996 From: "j.d.teare" Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:58:54 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Welcome to my nightmare... - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <83F0A826C0@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 133 Lines: 8 Me again, The old Windows 95 probelm of putting the clocks back three times reminded me of one thing... ...Groundhog Day! johnna From imc Mon Oct 28 19:05:29 1996 Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:05:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3274DD58.7210@warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Oct 28, 96 04:20:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 105 Lines: 6 On Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:20:40 +0000, Mr P R Walker said: > So what do you use? elm, as it happens. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 20:22:04 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:19:13 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961028151912_552349901@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam C - scanf problem - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 426 Lines: 13 In a message dated 28/10/96 13:02:52, you write: >No, the problem isn't me (for once) - it seems to be the compiler >because I have tried to compile programs that other people have given >me, which worked fine on their compiler, and not me. > >Gavin Smith What ROM you got? I have heard of problems with the SC_Autoboot ROM. If you are using that then you need to use the memory clear routine before loading SAM C. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 20:22:04 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:19:46 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961028151946_552350117@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bits and pieces - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 351 Lines: 11 In a message dated 28/10/96 17:29:16, you write: >Stefan "who's sig got wiped along with 850 meg worth of harddrive due to >a mechanical failure - but at least did have a very very good time in >Gloucester" Drissen Can you remember that much about Gloucester Stefan? Annie still suffering from lack of sleep, but looking forward to April. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 20:22:05 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:19:49 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961028151947_552350126@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: show Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 174 Lines: 10 In a message dated 28/10/96 17:24:46, you write: >So, is anyone going to give us a rundown of the show then?! >-Andy It was in Gloucester. You missed it. Nuff said? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 20:59:28 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:57:52 GMT Subject: Re: Sam C - scanf problem - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <25D59D43819@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 635 Lines: 20 > In a message dated 28/10/96 13:02:52, you write: > > >No, the problem isn't me (for once) - it seems to be the compiler > >because I have tried to compile programs that other people have given > >me, which worked fine on their compiler, and not me. > > > >Gavin Smith > > What ROM you got? I have heard of problems with the SC_Autoboot ROM. If you > are using that then you need to use the memory clear routine before loading > SAM C. > > Bob. 3.0 so I assume it isn't that. I either must be picking the wrong options or else my computer is f**ked because I'm definitely typing it in right. Thanks anyway Bob Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 21:00:36 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:59:23 GMT Subject: Mouse system Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <25D5FA93D7B@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 216 Lines: 6 Sorry to bother you again about the mouse, but I think you must be online tonight as you mailed the Sam Mailing list. Just wondering if you got my email which said I never received the mouse? Thanks, Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 21:02:56 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:01:24 GMT Subject: Re: Mouse system Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <25D686353D9@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 57 Lines: 2 Erm apologies, I sent that to the wrong address... Sorry From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 21:41:10 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:31:25 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961028163124_1548905179@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2940 Lines: 65 Ok folks. I've got some good news... And some bad news... Now which should I give you first? I know, the bad news - I want you to think a bit. Still reading, well just in case one person is, I will continue. THE SAM #2. Got your attention? Good. Yes, that is right. A new SAM. Ok, not right away, but that is the aim. There are some big reasons, which will come out given a bit of time but which I will not go into here or this mailing will be the longest on record. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to play a part in the redesign of SAM. Your reward? Well there isn't one, at least not at this stage. So you do it for the love of it. This mission mayll prove to be arduous, dangerous and expensive. Still with me? My, you do have staying power. Ok, I hear the question. WHAT THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT? Well it goes like this. Between now and next summer, I want to arrive at a design for a Mk2 SAM which, if West Coast are not prepared to back it, I will try and find funding for from the banks. To get to that stage I want to see a number of expansion/extension boards built for the existing SAM to prove the ideas. The following are just for starters:- 1) a static RAM board (an extended version of the existing SRAM interface that some of you may have) which will provide anything from 128K to 512K of paged static RAM to replace the existing ROM. This is to allow the development of a new BIOS + Basic + DOS (hard disc and floppy) + GUI and a few more bits. The need to move away from fixed ROM, which is difficult to replace and limited in size is, I think, an important step. Allowing code to sit in sideways RAM which can be write protected (put altered at will) will allow development of lots of different things in a way that the existing ROM based layout makes impossible. 2) New 1 to 16Mb RAM expansion. 3) Additional internal mod to provide a BOFF register. This will set the number of pages that the RAM page in Slot B is offset from the RAM page in Slot A. The default of zero gives one page as it is at the moment, load BOFF with 1 and the B slot is filled with page A+2, and so on. Nice idea? Could it be done? Well if it can then that give us a memory layout of 2x32K blocks or 16K+16K+32K. Will make block-moves easier. Or would it be better to use a DOFF register instead? Your comments please. 4) A new graphics card, possibly with its own processor. That should be enough to be going on with. I have talked about a number of these items with people in the past but it is now time to air them more generally. This is not a hoax. If the bits can come together then there will be a new machine. Even if everything does not get done then it is my hope that the existing SAM will have been expanded by quite a wide margin by this time next year. Over to you. But please, no talk outside this list or existing SAM sales will die - then there will be less money for the new machine. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 21:50:08 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:48:27 GMT Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <25E31A74E5B@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 693 Lines: 18 > Well it goes like this. Between now and next summer, I want to arrive at a > design for a Mk2 SAM which, if West Coast are not prepared to back it, I will > try and find funding for from the banks. To get to that stage I want to see a > number of expansion/extension boards built for the existing SAM to prove the > ideas. > > Bob. THE BEST NEWS I'VE HEARD IN AGES BOB!! And I'm so glad you are asking for help from the talented bods on this list (not including me cos I'm a bit crap at the moment but getting there ;) I've nothing else to say, except all you talented people PLEASE pull together on this one! This is GREAT!! I'm off to party :) Yours extremely happily, Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 21:52:07 1996 From: "j.d.teare" Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:49:01 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Son of SAM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <86C3BF21CF@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 293 Lines: 9 Wow - the best idea I've heard all year, and something we're all going to enjoy discussing over the coming months. Thanks for giving us all something to aim for Bob. Let's see if we can put the SAM up where it beloings. (I'm going home buzzing tonight - this is really good news) Johnna. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Oct 28 23:03:24 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:01:17 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: SON OF SAM!! To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199610281802_MC1-B65-1A43@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 230 Lines: 4 Woo-hoo! A SAM Mk2! I cannot help, as I know nothing about hardware & that, but : woo-hoo! I for one will want to purchase a Mk2 SAM, WHEN it happens. So, technically minded people of this mailing list, get to it! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 00:55:22 1996 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:53:22 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: SimCoupe & Floppies To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199610281953_MC1-B6B-6C0F@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 296 Lines: 4 Having *finally* found a copy of teledisk, I am now using SimCoupe. But, can anyone help me with why it refuses to read any of my SAM floppies? I just teledisked it straight to floppies and ran it, was I supposed to give it a copy of any ROM's or anything, sourced from my almost dead SAM Coupe? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 07:15:50 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:16:55 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610290716.AA01397@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bits and pieces - Reply X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Lines: 7 > Stefan "who's sig got wiped along with 850 meg worth of harddrive due to > a mechanical failure - but at least did have a very very good time in > Gloucester" Drissen One word only: Backup. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 07:18:50 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:19:14 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610290719.AA01400@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: New files X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 396 Lines: 11 > On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Frode Tenneboe wrote: > > file? I don't like the idea of another file-format. > > Why didn't you say so earlier??! I did propose this more than two weeks > ago! Anyway, everything should be true and very easy to use. Err..sorry, but I have been extremely busy. :/ But why did you choose another format? Are you the only one to use it - I guess so so far, but..? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 09:14:45 1996 Subject: Re: SON OF SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:09:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <961028163124_1548905179@emout01.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Oct 28, 96 04:31:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Oct29.101015+0100_met.46936-84+165@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3086 Lines: 63 > Well it goes like this. Between now and next summer, I want to arrive at a > design for a Mk2 SAM which, if West Coast are not prepared to back it, I will > try and find funding for from the banks. To get to that stage I want to see a > number of expansion/extension boards built for the existing SAM to prove the > ideas. The following are just for starters:- > > 1) a static RAM board (an extended version of the existing SRAM interface > that some of you may have) which will provide anything from 128K to 512K of > paged static RAM to replace the existing ROM. This is to allow the > development of a new BIOS + Basic + DOS (hard disc and floppy) + GUI and a > few more bits. The need to move away from fixed ROM, which is difficult to > replace and limited in size is, I think, an important step. Allowing code to > sit in sideways RAM which can be write protected (put altered at will) will > allow development of lots of different things in a way that the existing ROM > based layout makes impossible. A ROM would still be needed - for the BIOS at the very least. That ROM could be a 128K one, which will be loaded at reset time, copy all the necessary data across to the static ram.... did you ever see the MultiROM that Martin and I designed in action? > 2) New 1 to 16Mb RAM expansion. No need to stop at 16Mb; it's probably easier on the hardware if you /don't/ in fact... > 3) Additional internal mod to provide a BOFF register. This will set the > number of pages that the RAM page in Slot B is offset from the RAM page in > Slot A. The default of zero gives one page as it is at the moment, load BOFF > with 1 and the B slot is filled with page A+2, and so on. Nice idea? Could it > be done? Well if it can then that give us a memory layout of 2x32K blocks or > 16K+16K+32K. Will make block-moves easier. Or would it be better to use a > DOFF register instead? Your comments please. How about a BOFF and a DOFF? (though the DOFF logic is more complex as you have to take into account the XMEM line). > 4) A new graphics card, possibly with its own processor. > > That should be enough to be going on with. I have talked about a number of > these items with people in the past but it is now time to air them more > generally. > > This is not a hoax. If the bits can come together then there will be a new > machine. Even if everything does not get done then it is my hope that the > existing SAM will have been expanded by quite a wide margin by this time next > year. > > Over to you. > > But please, no talk outside this list or existing SAM sales will die - then > there will be less money for the new machine. Can I write about it in BOAI, in the context of "if you could redesign the SAM from scratch, what would you put in it - bearing in mind that it has to be compatible with the existing machine?" BTW: You missed out the processor. 18MHz Z380 is needed at least (or a 20MHz Z80, but that's not as nice a chip). Only problem is that undocumented opcodes (any of them except the extended IX,IY ones (IYl,IYh, IXl, IXh) will fail). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 09:47:32 1996 Message-Id: <199610290938.KAA22383@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: SimCoupe & Floppies To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 10:38:22 MET In-Reply-To: <199610281953_MC1-B6B-6C0F@compuserve.com>; from "Thomas Harte" at Oct 28, 96 7:53 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3317 Lines: 64 Hello, > Having *finally* found a copy of teledisk, I am now using SimCoupe. But, > can anyone help me with why it refuses to read any of my SAM floppies? I > just teledisked it straight to floppies and ran it, was I supposed to give > it a copy of any ROM's or anything, sourced from my almost dead SAM Coupe? Nope, you have everything right. There are two floppy problems with SimCoupe at the moment, one is easily fixed, and is due to a little bug in the code (I've fixed it now for the next version). The other is a weird effect, which can be got around. I'll explain Problem 1: If you don't put a SAM disk in the drive on starting the emulator (not the menus - just the actual program) SimCoupe will tell you it can't stat the drive, and will default to a SAM disk. BUT I forgot to remove a "return;" from the code, and the result is that it will refuse to read the disk ( Remedy 1: Put a SAM disk in the drive at startup Problem 2: This, as I said above is weird. Quite a few people have reported that some (or all of their disks just don't work. Stefan brought one such disk to the show and we tested it on my machine. It worked! All I can summise is that it's a drive feature. Some PC drives, are incapable of reading some SAM disks. Remedy 2: I think Simon Owen came up with this. If you format a 720K DD disk to SAM format (10 sectors/80 tracks/2 sides) on a PC (there is a DOS command to do this, but I can't remember it). This new disk will be SAM compatible for use in a BACKUP command. Now BACKUP the original disk to this new disk. This should work in the emulator. There are one or two things about the emulator which people have had problems with - mainly because there is no documentation (my fault). One is the High resolution mode. If you get your SVGA card to work - either by using the auto select or setting the chipset, then you can switch between the two emulator modes with the F5 (the PC key, not the SAM function key) key. The other problem is the mouse emulation. By default the mouse is disconnected, as some people like to use the keyboard. To switch on the mouse (ie connect a virtual mouse interface) hit the F3 key once. I call this mode the low res mouse mode, as it detects movements in mode 1,2,4 pixels. If the application uses 512 pixels in x, there is a mode sensitive mouse mode available by pressing F3 again. Pressing it once more disconnects the mouse again. One word of warning though. A lot of software ONLY checks for the mouse on startup, therefore you must have it connected before the program runs. Good luck Allan -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 09:47:32 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:38:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@euler.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM In-Reply-To: <961028163124_1548905179@emout01.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1398 Lines: 35 On Mon, 28 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > THE SAM #2. EXCELENT!!!! OK.. My thoughts on the subject:- The 64K part of the RAM that you use to page in be split up into 4x 16K rather than the 2x 32K (A+B and C+D).. You can have hardware emulation for the original one. (I suppose) Seperate graphics processor - Good idea. But can we have the electronics built in to connect the SAM2 to a SVGA monitor? My TV is giving me eye-strain! The seperate boot-up ROM is a good idea aswell. How about a built-in IDE interface? As for backward compatibilty? I think it's best if we have Hardware Emulation of the original SAM. To have actually BE hardware compatible may not be a good idea... Just look at the /MESS/ the PC is in! Oh Hell, this paragraph isn't coming out the way I wanted it to... I hope you guys know what I mean... Try again: SAM2 should be it's own machine - NOT just SAM + extras built on! We have a good machine - But we can improve it! But don't do what they did with the PC.... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 09:47:39 1996 Message-Id: <199610290941.KAA24871@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: SON OF SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 10:41:26 MET In-Reply-To: <961028163124_1548905179@emout01.mail.aol.com>; from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Oct 28, 96 4:31 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1061 Lines: 21 As quite a few people have said, this is the best news for the SAM for quite a while. I'm not really a hardware guy, but if you need any help with software developement, just ask. Also I feel that the emulator may be useful here. Any hardware changes can quite easily be incorporated for testing new software, without the need for building a new board. Keep up the good work Bob Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 09:47:39 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:41:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@euler.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: printl In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 607 Lines: 16 On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > A few notes on the PRINTL line which someone was asking > about: Ah.. That was me... Thanks for replying. :) I was beginning to think everyone was ignoring me... :/ -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 10:12:02 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 05:02:03 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029050202_552662660@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2724 Lines: 74 In a message dated 29/10/96 09:26:34, Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) wrote: [cut] >A ROM would still be needed - for the BIOS at the very least. That ROM >could be a 128K one, which will be loaded at reset time, copy all the >necessary data across to the static ram.... did you ever see the MultiROM >that Martin and I designed in action? In the first version I thought about leaving the V3 ROM inside the SAM. The sideways RAM board would then be battery-backed so that the static RAM kept its data. New versions of the software can then be sent out on disc. Did you have one of the original SRAM boards that MGT produced? They only had 32K of static RAM and now battery - but the basic idea is the same. > >> 2) New 1 to 16Mb RAM expansion. > >No need to stop at 16Mb; it's probably easier on the hardware if you >/don't/ in fact... Why do you say that? > [cut] >How about a BOFF and a DOFF? (though the DOFF logic is more complex as >you have to take into account the XMEM line). BOFF was one idea that Bruce dropped because it would not fit in the original ASIC and then there was no time to put it back for the VLSI version of the ASIC. So, one step at a time. Could the logic for a BOFF register be: a) done; b) done without too high a cost; and c) done without needing to hack the main board 'too' much? > >> 4) A new graphics card, possibly with its own processor. What no comment on the graphic card? [cut] >> >> But please, no talk outside this list or existing SAM sales will die - then >> there will be less money for the new machine. > >Can I write about it in BOAI, in the context of "if you could redesign >the SAM from scratch, what would you put in it - bearing in mind that it >has to be compatible with the existing machine?" No. Not for the moment. The trouble with print is that you have no control over who sees it. Keep it low profile for a couple of months and we will see how things go. > >BTW: You missed out the processor. 18MHz Z380 is needed at least (or a >20MHz Z80, but that's not as nice a chip). Only problem is that >undocumented opcodes (any of them except the extended IX,IY ones >(IYl,IYh, IXl, IXh) will fail). > >Simon When we get to SAMSON (good name init?) the processor will have to be looked at. At the moment I see the project as being a testing ground using the existing SAM and add-on units. It would also be nice to think that, once SAMSON is available, existing SAM users could build up their SAM Coupe/Elite to SAMSON standard using the add-ons (would cost more but they could do it bit-by-bit). Given the small user-base we have we must not leave too many people behind. Ok everybods, good response so far. back over to you now. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 10:12:03 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SON OF SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:00:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Oct 29, 96 09:38:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 117 Lines: 5 > The seperate boot-up ROM is a good idea aswell. > Flash RAM may be a better solution than a battery-backed SRAM. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 10:12:08 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SON OF SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:59:28 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199610290941.KAA24871@dxmint.cern.ch> from "Allan Skillman" at Oct 29, 96 10:41:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 509 Lines: 15 The problem with DOFF, BOFF and faster processors is.... the ASIC. Trying to use the existing one would mean such a large amount of additional circuitry that the only way to avoid a PCB smaller than a football pitch would be to have another ASIC/loads of GALs for the 'glue'. How many ASICs are in stock? If not many, then it may be more feasible to do away with it. If this is done, then it would be far easier to do away with Mode 1 and Mode 2 at the same time. Would this be controversial?!! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 10:25:23 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 05:16:47 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029051645_1481876530@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 157 Lines: 10 In a message dated 29/10/96 10:02:20, you write: >Flash RAM may be a better solution than a battery-backed >SRAM. > > How would the price compare? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 10:25:30 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 05:16:40 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029051639_1381845170@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 267 Lines: 12 In a message dated 29/10/96 09:44:59, you write: >Also I feel that the emulator may be useful here. Any hardware changes can >quite easily be incorporated for testing new software, without the need >for building a new board. > >Allan Wonderful idea Allan. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 10:25:30 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 05:16:48 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029051645_1448953906@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1031 Lines: 27 In a message dated 29/10/96 10:00:45, you write: >How many ASICs are in stock? If not many, then it may be >more feasible to do away with it. If this is done, >then it would be far easier to do away with Mode 1 >and Mode 2 at the same time. Would this be >controversial?!! > >-Andy In stock, a few thousand. With VLSI there are about another 6,000 plus and extra 6,000 that they can't find??? Due to the contract MGT and VLSI signed VLSI can use the logic of the ASIC if the want to. Their offer is, in a nutshell, "get rid of a 'reasonable' proportion' of the existing stock and we will work with you to develop and new ASIC based on the original MGT one". SAMSON could, if handled right, be the road to use up these stocks - remember that you could use more than one ASIC on a board if needed. So one could run at one speed to control the time-dependent things while the other runs faster. Grandson-of-SAM could then have a totally new ASIC with things like the IDE/floppy disc interface built in and lots more. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 11:07:07 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SON OF SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:04:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961029051645_1448953906@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Oct 29, 96 05:16:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 476 Lines: 10 > SAMSON could, if handled right, be the road to use up these stocks - remember > that you could use more than one ASIC on a board if needed. So one could run > at one speed to control the time-dependent things while the other runs > faster. Do we have any specs on the ASIC - I mean, at the moment it is run at 20MHz, but is it possible to crank that value up? I know it would screw-up the video output, but it could be handy for getting the SAM to work with VGA monitors. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 11:07:08 1996 From: "j.d.teare" Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:02:01 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <93FDD05949@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1219 Lines: 29 Hello, > How many ASICs are in stock? If not many, then it may be > more feasible to do away with it. If this is done, > then it would be far easier to do away with Mode 1 > and Mode 2 at the same time. Would this be > controversial?!! Well, we've got to ask ourselves if we're going to bother with Spectrum emulation any more - Mode 1 was only ever intended for that. Mode 2 is used in /some/ software (Sphera comes to mind) so to have 100% SAM compatibility we might just have to let them remain. And I think it wouuld be the best way forward to have complete compatability because, as Bob said, you can't really go about alienating any sections of a small group of SAM users. Built in BASIC? Why not built in C aswell - perhaps the C compiler we've been talking about recently on the list? However, and I'm contradicting myself here, as someone said recently on the list (and I can't remember who - sorry!) we should try to avoid the fiasco that has happened in the PC world where a standard machine that had a few extra boards tagged onto it has become a Pentium - with so many different variants of PC in between that complete software compatibiliy is a no-go area. Just some thoughts... Johnna From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 12:19:24 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:14:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@mersenne.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM In-Reply-To: <961029051645_1481876530@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1344 Lines: 27 On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 29/10/96 10:02:20, you write: > > >Flash RAM may be a better solution than a battery-backed > >SRAM. > > How would the price compare? Flash EPROMs are no more expensive than standard EPROMs. If you use the 5v progarm voltage versions (the 29xxx) then you don't even have to worry about 12.5v. I know you can't use them like SRAMs but a little extra circuitry, you should be able to update the software on-board no problems via disk (still need another standard EPROM to have software to code it though...). This is how my plan for Arcturus would do it... Trouble is, the smallest Flash EPROM from AMD is 128K. Will you guys be able to fill it up? :) Not only that, it's split into 16K chucks (hence my proposal of a new paging system where A, B, C & D can have any 16K chunk)... and update 1 16K chunk at a time (One for BIOS, one for BASIC, one for DOS/HDOS, one for GUI...) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 13:33:31 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:26:31 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 545 Lines: 13 What about sound? If the Phillips chip is getting rare, is there some equivalent which could be used instead? Also, a better way of playing sound samples than that chip can manage, eg built-in Quazar, would be nice. This is starting to sound expensive.... What vague sort of time-scale are we looking at here? It sounds like there's a lot of software to write, not only the system software, but also games, utilities etc which we will need to be ready if we're going to attract any new customers, which to me would seem pretty vital. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 13:51:22 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:39:39 +0100 (MET) From: Ben Versteeg Subject: Re: Son of SAM In-Reply-To: <86C3BF21CF@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <199610291339.OAA14811@charm.il.ft.hse.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 527 Lines: 11 Even I will buy one when it's ready !!! Ben --------------------------------------------------------------------- Inner Products Holland _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ Ben Versteeg _/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ ben@il.ft.hse.nl _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ www.il.ft.hse.nl/~ben _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 14:08:36 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:59:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@galois.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1428 Lines: 27 On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, A.S. Collier wrote: > What about sound? If the Phillips chip is getting rare, is there some > equivalent which could be used instead? Also, a better way of playing > sound samples than that chip can manage, eg built-in Quazar, would be > nice. This is starting to sound expensive.... How about the Interwave chip from AMD? :) I don't have many details since I last heard about it just before I left the net to go to my Work Placement in Southampton. If I remember rightly, It's a wave table synthesis like the Gravis Ultrasound... It'll make my MIDI player (which I've started btw) easier.. :) > What vague sort of time-scale are we looking at here? It sounds like > there's a lot of software to write, not only the system software, but also > games, utilities etc which we will need to be ready if we're going to > attract any new customers, which to me would seem pretty vital. I agree.. Looks like we need that C compiler.. :) Once we get that, the application programming should be noooooooo problems... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 14:14:28 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961029140523.008f8674@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:05:23 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1340 Lines: 25 At 12:14 PM 10/29/96 +0000, you wrote: >Flash EPROMs are no more expensive than standard EPROMs. If you use the 5v >progarm voltage versions (the 29xxx) then you don't even have to worry about >12.5v. I know you can't use them like SRAMs but a little extra circuitry, you >should be able to update the software on-board no problems via disk (still need >another standard EPROM to have software to code it though...). This is how my >plan for Arcturus would do it... Trouble is, the smallest Flash EPROM from AMD >is 128K. Will you guys be able to fill it up? :) Not only that, it's split into >16K chucks (hence my proposal of a new paging system where A, B, C & D can have >any 16K chunk)... and update 1 16K chunk at a time (One for BIOS, one for >BASIC, one for DOS/HDOS, one for GUI...) Hmmm.... nice. BTW: We *MUST* include a nice little chip I found for 2.50 UKP -- power line "Power supply stable" detector chip, with power-down to Battery selection. Perfect for making sure that you don't blast the Flash EPROM with a lot of crap on powerup - and also serves the same purpose for the SAMBUS clock. Could do with a "Lock" mechanism for the FLASH Rom.... some kind of port which must be written to and read from within a pair of instruction's time before writing to the FLASH Rom is allowed... something like that anyway. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 14:14:29 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961029140518.0090291c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:05:18 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 844 Lines: 26 At 11:04 AM 10/29/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> SAMSON could, if handled right, be the road to use up these stocks - remember >> that you could use more than one ASIC on a board if needed. So one could run >> at one speed to control the time-dependent things while the other runs >> faster. > >Do we have any specs on the ASIC - I mean, at the moment it is >run at 20MHz, but is it possible to crank that value up? I know >it would screw-up the video output, but it could be handy for >getting the SAM to work with VGA monitors. Nope, sorry... not without wrecking: 1. The disk clocks 2. The DRAM refresh logic 3. The chip... 4. The CPU clock timings *however*, it should be possible to just directly wire up a SAM to a VGA monitor, with the use of a sync separator (a couple of resistors and capacitors should do the trick) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 14:25:29 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SON OF SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:21:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Oct 29, 96 01:26:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 697 Lines: 17 > What about sound? If the Phillips chip is getting rare, is there some > equivalent which could be used instead? Also, a better way of playing > sound samples than that chip can manage, eg built-in Quazar, would be > nice. This is starting to sound expensive.... > I think this, along with the disc-controller, is one area where we have to stray from total compatibility. My suggestion is that we have two 8-bit DACs, - simple DACs are only a quid or two in quantity, and perfectly adequate for the SAM's capabilities. Ah, but then the CPU has to do all the work, doesn't it?! There are PIC chips with DAC outputs which could be programmed to implement some sort of sound generator.... -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 16:10:07 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <13738.199610291603@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:03:26 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9610281905.AA02198@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Oct 28, 96 07:05:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 272 Lines: 6 > elm, as it happens. Not great, but it's okay I suppose. Can anyone recommend a decent editor, as opposed to emacs/vi/jove etc.? Something along the lines of QEdit for the PC would be good, or even just something simple with menus, rather than loads of CTRL-presses... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 16:11:53 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961029144057.008fb848@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:40:57 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 894 Lines: 23 At 02:21 PM 10/29/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> What about sound? If the Phillips chip is getting rare, is there some >> equivalent which could be used instead? Also, a better way of playing >> sound samples than that chip can manage, eg built-in Quazar, would be >> nice. This is starting to sound expensive.... >> > >I think this, along with the disc-controller, is one area >where we have to stray from total compatibility. My suggestion >is that we have two 8-bit DACs, - simple DACs are only a quid >or two in quantity, and perfectly adequate for the SAM's capabilities. > >Ah, but then the CPU has to do all the work, doesn't it?! >There are PIC chips with DAC outputs which could be programmed >to implement some sort of sound generator.... Zilog do a beautiful range of Soundblaster FM DSP's , with DAC output if you want it... all for very small amounts of money too. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 16:18:38 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:10:04 +0100 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 56 Lines: 4 What are the chances of DMA on this new machine? Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 16:24:04 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:14:38 +0100 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Printer Ports Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 417 Lines: 12 I have a Comms I/F that I use for my printer, and now (thanks to Mr Drissen) a SamDAC and what I want to know is, can I get a second parallel port on the go on my Sam. I presume there is the capability but can I hack around with the Comms I/F to get one and save me messing around with the now unbelievable amount of spaghetti at the back of my Sam? Failing that, I could always get a printer stitch box :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 16:24:11 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:15:14 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029101508_1549005068@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 237 Lines: 10 In a message dated 29/10/96 14:43:48, you write: >Zilog do a beautiful range of Soundblaster FM DSP's , with DAC output if you >want it... all for very small amounts of money too. > >Simon How small is "small amounts of money"? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 16:33:28 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:18:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... In-Reply-To: <13738.199610291603@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 526 Lines: 18 On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Mr P R Walker wrote: > Not great, but it's okay I suppose. Can anyone recommend a decent editor, > as opposed to emacs/vi/jove etc.? Something along the lines of QEdit for the PC > would be good, or even just something simple with menus, rather than loads > of CTRL-presses... > Depends what platform you're on ...? (And that was a question, you can tell by the question mark, some people please take note ... ) All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 16:44:13 1996 Message-Id: <3276A009.77C6@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:23:37 -0800 From: MR P R WALKER Organization: Computing Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: davewhitmore@enterprise.net, sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: *Off* the warpath for a change References: <199610221752.SAA20723@mail.enterprise.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 819 Lines: 24 Dave Whitmore wrote: > How about emailing me a brief-description/instruction doc and I'll put it on nvg ? Doesn't really need any instructions, but... --- Really easy to use - stick a Sam disk in drive A:, and type SAMREAD. The program will wander off and read both sides of the disk, dumping the data to two files on drive C:, which I think are called SIDE0.BIN and SIDE1.BIN. When you've done that, to reverse the process simply stick an already-formatted Sam disk in the drive, change to the directory where the files are (/must/ be the same name), and type SAMDUMP. No checks are made to see if the Sam disk contains data already, so be careful... --- And that's about it! I'm not 100% sure of the file names now (wrote it quite a while ago), so if they're wrong can you change 'em please... :) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 17:08:44 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:39:55 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029113954_219956453@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 534 Lines: 23 In a message dated 29/10/96 14:09:51, you write: >Nope, sorry... not without wrecking: > >1. The disk clocks >2. The DRAM refresh logic Would it be better to have a special clock for the above two? >3. The chip... How fast could the chip go? >4. The CPU clock timings > >*however*, it should be possible to just directly wire up a SAM to a VGA >monitor, with the use of a sync separator (a couple of resistors and >capacitors should do the trick) Some VGA monitors will separate the signel inside for you anyway. > >Simon Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 17:08:52 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:40:05 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029114005_219956514@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1033 Lines: 27 In a message dated 29/10/96 12:15:44, you write: >Flash EPROMs are no more expensive than standard EPROMs. If you use the 5v >progarm voltage versions (the 29xxx) then you don't even have to worry about >12.5v. I know you can't use them like SRAMs but a little extra circuitry, you >should be able to update the software on-board no problems via disk (still >need >another standard EPROM to have software to code it though...). This is how my >plan for Arcturus would do it... Trouble is, the smallest Flash EPROM from >AMD >is 128K. Will you guys be able to fill it up? :) Not only that, it's split >into >16K chucks (hence my proposal of a new paging system where A, B, C & D can >have >any 16K chunk)... and update 1 16K chunk at a time (One for BIOS, one for >BASIC, one for DOS/HDOS, one for GUI...) > > No, what I ment is how would, say a 128K Flash ROM compare in price with 128K Static RAM. Ok, I know there would have to be extra chips to control things line write-protect if we use Static RAM but they are cheap. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 17:09:05 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:40:32 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029114030_219956712@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 847 Lines: 24 In a message dated 29/10/96 11:05:41, you write: >However, and I'm contradicting myself here, as someone said recently >on the list (and I can't remember who - sorry!) we should try to >avoid the fiasco that has happened in the PC world where a standard machine >that had a few extra boards tagged onto it has become a Pentium - >with so many different variants of PC in between that complete >software compatibiliy is a no-go area. > >Just some thoughts... > >Johnna > > Idea is to allow even a 256K tape based SAM to grow to be totally compatible SAMSON just by buying the extra boards one at a time. By creating this machine, it is then simple to take all the board designs and merge them to produce a nicer (cheaper) SAMSON main board. Solve the problems one bit at a time and the end result should be much easier to achieve. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 17:40:14 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:17:26 +0100 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: *Off* the warpath for a change - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 578 Lines: 16 > Really easy to use - stick a Sam disk in drive A:, > and type SAMREAD. The program will wander off and > read both sides of the disk, dumping the data to > two files on drive C:, which I think are called SIDE0.BIN and SIDE1.BIN. There's a file on NVG (pub/sam-coupe/misc/pc/samdisk.exe I think) which was written my Mat of ESI and does the same but produces one image file and is fairley nifty. Slightly off the subject but one handy thing I do have is a Teledisk file of a blank sam formatted disc, so if I get caught out without one I can whip one up on my PC. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 17:49:51 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:26:55 +0100 Message-Id: <96102917265477@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no Subject: Hello. X-Vms-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 150 Lines: 11 I'm a little bored at the mo. Is anyone around? Oh - and the most important thing about SAMSON is, of course.... what colour will it be? :) Al. From imc Tue Oct 29 18:00:44 1996 Subject: Re: Hello. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:00:44 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96102917265477@morse.ntu.ac.uk> from "CC604050@ntu.ac.uk \(\)>" at Oct 29, 96 05:26:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 414 Lines: 11 On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:26:55 +0100, CC604050@ntu.ac.uk \(\)> said: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You are the second person today to have forgotten to tell your computer that BST ended at the weekend even though you did put the clock back. > I'm a little bored at the mo. Is anyone around? Are you joking? I can't keep with up the mail today! (This explains why I haven't answered your mail, Dave). imc From imc Tue Oct 29 18:13:28 1996 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:13:28 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961029114030_219956712@emout07.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Oct 29, 96 11:40:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 905 Lines: 19 On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:40:32 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Idea is to allow even a 256K tape based SAM to grow to be totally compatible > SAMSON just by buying the extra boards one at a time. In my opinion, if you want the final machine to be any use you will have to forget this. The first thing you want is a souped up processor. Then you can have a flat memory model and not bother with all this extra paging stuff except when you are running it in Z80 emulation mode (which I presume you can select on the Z380 or whatever by means of an instruction). Any program which is being run in Sam mode can use the old paging (no BOFF) and any non-Sam program can be written in native mode. We have several big competing architectures on the market: Intel, Motorola and (to a lesser extent) ARM. Could this be the next "big" architecture? :-) Someone will have to write a windowing system... imc From imc Tue Oct 29 18:16:01 1996 Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:16:01 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <13738.199610291603@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Oct 29, 96 04:03:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 400 Lines: 11 On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:03:26 +0000 (GMT), Mr P R Walker said: > Not great, but it's okay I suppose. Can anyone recommend a decent editor, Er, no. No Unix editor is "decent" until you've used it for a couple of years. You could try compiling Mark Hessling's THE (I forget where but there's a pointer to it on my WWW under "Rexx", if it's not out of date) which is modelled on the PC's KEDIT. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 20:38:00 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:30:15 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029153011_1147215094@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 192 Lines: 11 In a message dated 29/10/96 17:39:40, you write: >Oh - and the most important thing about SAMSON is, of course.... > >what colour will it be? > >Al. What colour do you want it to be? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 20:38:00 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:30:17 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961029153015_1481930742@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 774 Lines: 20 In a message dated 29/10/96 18:26:46, you write: >> Idea is to allow even a 256K tape based SAM to grow to be totally >compatible >> SAMSON just by buying the extra boards one at a time. > >In my opinion, if you want the final machine to be any use you will have >to forget this. >imc Sorry, but this is the ONE AND ONLY part of the design spec that CANNOT and WILL NOT be changed. It is a matter of holding faith with those who already have SAMs. Yes, one day, they may be a SUPER SAM which can go its own way and still 'emulate' the Coupe. But that is further down the road than we can think about at the moment. Stage one is grow a new SAM, stage two is take that and turn it into a self-contained machine. Beyond that we cannot afford the luxury of dreaming. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 21:49:42 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <7726.199610292119@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: *Off* the warpath for a change - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:19:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Doore" at Oct 29, 96 05:17:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 501 Lines: 16 > There's a file on NVG (pub/sam-coupe/misc/pc/samdisk.exe I think) > which was written my Mat of ESI and does the same but > produces one image file and is fairley nifty. Two things to say : a) as far as I remember, Dave /asked/ for two files so he could also use it with his Amiga program b) it was written in 15 minutes, what do you expect?! :) > a Teledisk file of a blank sam formatted disc, so if I get > caught out without one I can whip one up on my PC. That's a good idea tho... Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 22:28:37 1996 X-Warning: Assuming character set ISO 8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:25:18 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: SimCoupe & Disks. To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199610291725_MC1-B6B-4653@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 326 Lines: 8 Sorry 'bout this, but I have tried both of the suggestions, and it stil= l refuses to accept any disks at all. Oh, and my 'puter refuses to format double density disks to 800k (10 sectors / 80 tracks / 2 sides). It is = a new P200 if that helps any. Should I consider a second floppy drive (th= ey are only =A315 round here)? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 22:44:21 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:30:36 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: SON OF SAM!! To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199610291731_MC1-B6B-466C@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 577 Lines: 13 I am not techy, so I the below may not be possible, but how about adding :- 1) a floating point maths co-processor? 2) basic sprite hardware, for games & GUI acceleration? 3) a 640x480 8bit colour depth graphics mode? That would only need 512k video ram, and would be very useful as far as a new GUI would be concerned. 4) built in Parallel & Serial ports? Use a 16550 UART, and we could be 'surfing' from our SAMs. Also, this would allow you to package the SAM Mk 2 & a modem with a GUI & internet software as a set top internet box, which appears to be a growing market. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 23:26:56 1996 Message-Id: <199610292324.XAA20201@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Ftn-To: Dan Doore Subject: Re: *Off* the warpath for a change - Reply Date: 29 Oct 1996 21:29:58 Organization: Dalmation BBS References: X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1187 Lines: 30 In a message of 29 Oct 96 Dan Doore wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi Dan, >> Really easy to use - stick a Sam disk in drive A:, and type SAMREAD. The >> program will wander off and read both sides of the disk, dumping the >> data to two files on drive C:, which I think are called SIDE0.BIN and >> SIDE1.BIN. DD> There's a file on NVG (pub/sam-coupe/misc/pc/samdisk.exe I think) which DD> was written my Mat of ESI and does the same but produces one image file DD> and is fairley nifty. The main reason I asked Paul to code this particular util was to be compatible with a routine that I use on my Amiga that reads in both sides of a SAM disk. I don't have a PC, so this way I can read PD disks into files and put them on my BBS for PC users to download. I still have the problem of not being able to write the same files back to a SAM disk from the Amiga. I've got something that I can use to format a SAM disk, but nothing to dump the data on the tracks... damnit :( I can write the data back using a SAM if I split the files into 200k each and transfer the code through PC disks, but it's a pain and it involves a lot of disks and a lot of swaps. Bye, _ |_)ave From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Oct 29 23:26:57 1996 Message-Id: <199610292324.XAA20187@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Hello. Date: 29 Oct 1996 23:15:16 References: <96102917265477@morse.ntu.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3973 Lines: 111 In a message of 29 Oct 96 A Clarkson - BSC\(H\ wrote to SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no: Hi A, ACB> I'm a little bored at the mo. Is anyone around? Jeez! This mail is most inconsistent!:) Just when I thought everything = had gone quiet again, I come on to find that Bob has started a really interesting thread! Cheers Bob, I really like your ideas.. you're not such a @*&=A3$ after = all! :)))) ACB> Oh - and the most important thing about SAMSON is, of course.... ACB> what colour will it be? :) I remember Ian "Axe" Slavin saying once that he thought SAM would ha= ve been a lot more "attractive" if it had been in a small black boring loo= king box, with a number instead of a name. I've never really disliked the lo= ok of SAM, but if it could look a little less like a toy it'd probably hel= p. It wasn't so bad in the days when it was released, but it's just a litt= le bit embarassing standing near one when I see Derek at the All Formats Fairs. The sniggers and sneers from some of those people who think the world revolves around PC's are pretty annoying to cope with. There's another thing. Many people think of SAM as being little better = than a 48K Spectrum. They are obviously ignorant of the real truth, but I th= ink the /image/ of a new (or improved) machine should be high on the list = of priorities.=20 I know that the original design anticipated lots of younger users and l= ots of use in schools, but I think the machine itself ended up being more attractive to serious/adult users. Also, a SAM based machine without a massive leap in performance will ne= ver attract games players. So we know that the target buyers will be enthusiasts who want a machine in the spirit of something along the lin= es of one of uncle Clive's or uncle Bruce's creations. One thing it will h= ave to keep is it's easy programmability (is that a word?); all it's inner workings should be accessible from something very similar to SAM BASIC,= as well as all the great ideas about a new C language and M/C interfaces. If the ideas to take BASIC out of ROM go ahead, fair enough, so long as it can be loaded in again. It'll be much better anyway, since there can= be more than one version and they can be improved more easily. Then again,= one of the good things about SAM has always been the fact that BASIC is the= re at switch on.. Maybe /a/ version of BASIC should be kept, but with an e= asy option to load in a better alternative?=20 Yes, all that stuff about a new DOS - incorporating HDOS.. excellent! Serious comms development should also be undertaken. I know two people = who have single-handedly put in a lot of effort into comms, but I think the= re should be more of a team effort, else things move too slowly. Naming no names, I swapped email with someone (from this very list) the other day= who is working on GIF decoding, LHA archiving/dearchiving, Uuencode/Uudecod= e, comms terminal program, improvments for HDOS, and much more! It /wasn't= / Simon, but a few people here can probably guess who I'm on about. Ho= w about thinking about some kind of internet access? Perhaps a WWW viewin= g program seems silly at this stage, but who knows? Email and ftp should = be possible.. but is all this really what we'd want from a SAM? Like Bob says though, it's really got to be done as a labour of love, rather than hoping to make big money. Is such a scheme possible? I mean wouldn't it be possible for someone in future to withdraw their contributions, when they see their work possibly making money for other people and not themselves. Awful idea, but it needs to be considered. There's plenty people here and others who can be brought in to do all t= his. I'm not really one of them, but I'm with all of you in enthusiasm.. and= who know's, I might be able to help somehow. Oh I could bore everyone to death with my thoughts, so I'll shut up. :) Bye _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net Son of SAM advocate! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 00:45:10 1996 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:41:32 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: Samson Software To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199610291941_MC1-B77-29F1@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 348 Lines: 5 Is there a SAM C compiler? If so, how would I get it? I write PC games in C at the minute, and presuming the Samson was fully compatible with code from the SAM C compiler, I could get to work doing some filled polygon type things. But I would need a rough idea of the speed difference between the regular SAM & the Samson first, obviously. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 07:10:46 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:04:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Si Owen To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe & Disks. In-Reply-To: <199610291725_MC1-B6B-4653@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Organisation: Wordcraft International Ltd. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 908 Lines: 29 On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Thomas Harte wrote: > Sorry 'bout this, but I have tried both of the suggestions, and it st= ill > refuses to accept any disks at all. Oh, and my 'puter refuses to form= at > double density disks to 800k (10 sectors / 80 tracks / 2 sides). It i= s a > new P200 if that helps any. Should I consider a second floppy drive (= they > are only =A315 round here)? Have you tried 'fdformat' under either Linux or DOS? I've not come acr= oss any that won't format them yet... Si /------------------------------------+---------------------------------= -------\ | Si Owen | Home: si@obobo.demon.co.uk = | | Wordcraft International Ltd, UK | Work: sowen@wordcraft.co.uk = | | Fax: +44-1332-295525 | WWW: www.obobo.demon.co.uk = | \------------------------------------+---------------------------------= -------/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 07:44:54 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:44:06 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610300744.AA02100@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1470 Lines: 33 > >> Idea is to allow even a 256K tape based SAM to grow to be totally > >compatible > >> SAMSON just by buying the extra boards one at a time. > > > >In my opinion, if you want the final machine to be any use you will have > >to forget this. > > >imc > > Sorry, but this is the ONE AND ONLY part of the design spec that CANNOT and > WILL NOT be changed. It is a matter of holding faith with those who already > have SAMs. Yes, one day, they may be a SUPER SAM which can go its own way and > still 'emulate' the Coupe. But that is further down the road than we can > think about at the moment. Stage one is grow a new SAM, stage two is take > that and turn it into a self-contained machine. Beyond that we cannot afford > the luxury of dreaming. I have some more views which I will get back to at a later stage when I have more time, but just a quick comment on this one. You are aware Bob, that you can for a pretty small sum design a computer far superior to the PC, but to continiously upgrade a rather (mind me) slugish computer to a better performing one you'll end up with double of everything. However, if you do it like this you have to make it completely modular. Start with a common fast bus, add on say an accelrator card that also can run on it's own. A memory expansion card, a graphicalcard, an external device interface (SCSI/IDE?), etc. And when you have got the lot you should be able to plug out the SAM and have one SAM and one SAMSON. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 07:54:03 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:53:31 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610300753.AA02113@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 979 Lines: 20 > Serious comms development should also be undertaken. I know two people who > have single-handedly put in a lot of effort into comms, but I think there > should be more of a team effort, else things move too slowly. Naming no > names, I swapped email with someone (from this very list) the other day who > is working on GIF decoding, LHA archiving/dearchiving, Uuencode/Uudecode, > comms terminal program, improvments for HDOS, and much more! It /wasn't/ > Simon, but a few people here can probably guess who I'm on about. How > about thinking about some kind of internet access? Perhaps a WWW viewing > program seems silly at this stage, but who knows? Email and ftp should be > possible.. but is all this really what we'd want from a SAM? Why? With a decent TCP/IP stack you should be able to convert lynx for WWW browsing. > Oh I could bore everyone to death with my thoughts, so I'll shut up. :) Don't - everybody's ideas are as valuable as anyone else's. -Frode > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 09:07:14 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:56:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9610300744.AA02100@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Oct 30, 96 08:44:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 301 Lines: 8 Can I suggest that an important part of the SAMson design should be standardising some of the software - for example the SAM should have a very definite text file format. Also, how about a standard (public domain?) text editor which all programs requiring an editor can use - assemblers, etc. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 09:42:53 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030093514.00909668@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:35:14 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1333 Lines: 36 >>Nope, sorry... not without wrecking: >> >>1. The disk clocks >>2. The DRAM refresh logic > >Would it be better to have a special clock for the above two? Ummm... for the disk clocks, yes -- in fact, this is why it's a good idea to get an SC_Disk Protector -- the disk controller requires at least 3 or 4 cycles on the clock while RESET is low. The ASIC stops all clock output when you hold reset (AFAIK), therefore causing corruption of the disk controller registers (and consequently of your disks). As for the DRAM, it's best to leave that up to the ASICs. Faster DRAMs might be able to manage it, but you're pushing the prices up and the limits of the technology aren't too far from the SAM spec where memory's concerned. >>3. The chip... > >How fast could the chip go? It depends on how *exactly* they fabricated it... my guess is probably not much more than 32MHz - comfortably, that is - but then the video timings would go out of the window, as they're all based on the 24MHz standard clock. >>4. The CPU clock timings >> >>*however*, it should be possible to just directly wire up a SAM to a VGA >>monitor, with the use of a sync separator (a couple of resistors and >>capacitors should do the trick) >Some VGA monitors will separate the signel inside for you anyway. Nifty :) I've got to try it some time ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 09:46:58 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030093824.008fe32c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:38:24 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Hardware Compatibility Issues Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 868 Lines: 23 >Idea is to allow even a 256K tape based SAM to grow to be totally compatible >SAMSON just by buying the extra boards one at a time. > >By creating this machine, it is then simple to take all the board designs and >merge them to produce a nicer (cheaper) SAMSON main board. Solve the problems >one bit at a time and the end result should be much easier to achieve. > >Bob. Hmmm... just a thought on this. First of all, I'm willing to maintain the authorised port allocation list for people -- I've already got one put together which was used for the Quazar (as Colin Piggot will tell you). It helps to keep track of this kind of thing... Secondly, we could do with a hardware-designer's style guide... things to do and not to do (such as DO buffer data lines, DO use the DBDIR line, etc) Thirdly, How about using 96 pin connectors instead of 64pin ones? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:06:33 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Hardware Compatibility Issues To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:01:26 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961030093824.008fe32c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 30, 96 09:38:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 185 Lines: 7 > Thirdly, How about using 96 pin connectors instead of 64pin ones? > This had occurred to me too - the middle row could be used for new signals specific to the SAMson design. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:08:58 1996 Message-Id: <199610301004.LAA28704@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: SAMSON ideas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 96 11:04:23 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1908 Lines: 36 Hello All, Just a couple of thoughts regarding the SAMSON project: First hardware. Why not go for something along the lines of Simon and Martin's accelerator design. It has been shown to work in practice, and nicely fits into your idea of an expansion for the standard Sam. Also even if a Z380 is used the normal Z80 on the SAM PCB could be used for 100% compatability. Further, and feel free to tell me it can't be done hardware guys, but can the Z80 control the NMI on Z80? If this is possible then it might me possible to have a 'virtual z80' mode on the machine. Looks and feels like a normal z80 - ie the machine is at the mercy of the software - always nasty -, but the z380 could interrupt the z80, page in some code at 0x66 and cause an NMI. Second Software. I think the BASIC interpreter needs to be separated from the UI, ie the possible GUI system can run BASIC shells, rather than the BASIC shell (command line and editor) runs the GUI. Something along the lines of RiscOS. Also Can we drop the line numbers. SAM Basic doesn't really need them now, as even gotos can use labels. I would like to be able to write the program in one window and run it from a shell prompt (or by clicking on the file of course) Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:21:32 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030101440.0090060c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:14:40 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 409 Lines: 16 At 10:15 AM 10/29/96 -0500, you wrote: >Status: > >In a message dated 29/10/96 14:43:48, you write: > >>Zilog do a beautiful range of Soundblaster FM DSP's , with DAC output if you >>want it... all for very small amounts of money too. >> >>Simon > >How small is "small amounts of money"? Given the price of the rest of their chips, I think we're talking of at most 10UKP... probably a *LOT* less. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:25:25 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030101938.008cdc90@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:19:38 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Hello. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 164 Lines: 11 At 03:30 PM 10/29/96 -0500, you wrote: >>what colour will it be? >> >>Al. > >What colour do you want it to be? Anything he likes, as long as it's black ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:53:00 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:46:41 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030054641_1314994005@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 430 Lines: 17 In a message dated 30/10/96 10:17:53, you write: >>>Zilog do a beautiful range of Soundblaster FM DSP's , with DAC output if >you >>>want it... all for very small amounts of money too. >>> >>>Simon >> >>How small is "small amounts of money"? > >Given the price of the rest of their chips, I think we're talking of at most >10UKP... probably a *LOT* less. >Simon More details please Simon, this could be worth looking at. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:53:09 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:46:39 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030054639_1247900885@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 409 Lines: 13 In a message dated 30/10/96 07:52:35, you write: [cut cos you already got it] >Why? With a decent TCP/IP stack you should be able to convert lynx >for WWW browsing. > > -Frode Ok Frode, spill the beans. What the hell is a TCP/IP stack, and is a decent one one that is fully dressed? And yes, you've guessed it, what is lynx. (but I do no what WWW stands for so there is not need to explain that one.) Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:53:10 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:46:39 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030054635_1147312853@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1103 Lines: 26 In a message dated 30/10/96 07:43:03, you write: >However, if you do it like this you have to make it completely modular. >Start with a common fast bus, add on say an accelrator card that also >can run on it's own. A memory expansion card, a graphicalcard, an >external device interface (SCSI/IDE?), etc. And when you have got the >lot you should be able to plug out the SAM and have one SAM and one >SAMSON. > > -Frode One of Bruce Gordon's original ideas was that ultimatly the SAM Coupe would have expanded to the point where the original SAM was only a 'super keyboard' to the rest of the machine. It would be nice to think that the 'Son Of The Son Of SAM' would be nothing but a back-plane with a number of 96 way euro connectors sticking up. Plug in a processor card of your choice, graphic cards, you name it you could have it. This does raise the question of what could the B line of pins be used for? Anybods got some ideas? How about a new interface standard which uses the extra 32 lines for inter-interface communication which is not passed through to SAM/SAMSON? Just a thought. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:53:30 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:46:41 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030054640_1281440085@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 437 Lines: 13 In a message dated 30/10/96 09:05:05, you write: >Can I suggest that an important part of the SAMson design >should be standardising some of the software - for example >the SAM should have a very definite text file format. Also, >how about a standard (public domain?) text editor which all >programs requiring an editor can use - assemblers, etc. > >-Andy I think this could well come if SAMSON moves towards a GUI type system. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 10:59:50 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:54:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. In-Reply-To: <961030054639_1247900885@emout15.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 547 Lines: 17 On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Ok Frode, spill the beans. What the hell is a TCP/IP stack, and is a decent > one one that is fully dressed? TCP/IP is/are the protocol(s) for internet data transfer, but quite what stacking them has got to do with anything I'm not too sure ... ;) > And yes, you've guessed it, what is lynx. lynx is a text-only web browser that supports proper standardised HTML (Unlike certain browsers I could mention ...) All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:04:38 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:03:28 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610301103.AA28924@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1022 Lines: 28 > In a message dated 30/10/96 07:52:35, you write: > [cut cos you already got it] > >Why? With a decent TCP/IP stack you should be able to convert lynx > >for WWW browsing. > > > > -Frode > > Ok Frode, spill the beans. What the hell is a TCP/IP stack, and is a decent > one one that is fully dressed? Hmm...a TCP/IP stack is a term describing (losely put) the receiving of tcp/ip (the internet way of communication) from a modem, putting it all together and distributing (or make it available for fetching) it to the applications which requests data. Sort of a queuing system. > And yes, you've guessed it, what is lynx. Lynx is a text-only based WWW browser. That does not mean that it's not possible to run graphical based WWW browsers on the SAM - it just needs to be done. Actually, if you have a terminal comms program you only need to connect to your ISP to run lynx and as I understand Termite already does that? > (but I do no what WWW stands for so there is not need to explain that one.) OK. :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:09:38 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:11:50 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: *Off* the warpath for a change - Repl - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 587 Lines: 19 > > There's a file on NVG (pub/sam-coupe/misc/pc/samdisk.exe I think) > > which was written my Mat of ESI and does the same but > > produces one image file and is fairley nifty. > > Two things to say : > > a) as far as I remember, Dave /asked/ for two files so he could also use it > with his Amiga program b) it was written in 15 minutes, what do you expect?! :) Hum, I'm not rubbishing the program or anything I was just saying that there is a similar program on NVG. This was mainly in the context of Frode's concern over file formats and just thought I'd mention it. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:18:08 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:14:16 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610301114.AA28931@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 842 Lines: 18 > One of Bruce Gordon's original ideas was that ultimatly the SAM Coupe would > have expanded to the point where the original SAM was only a 'super keyboard' > to the rest of the machine. > > It would be nice to think that the 'Son Of The Son Of SAM' would be nothing > but a back-plane with a number of 96 way euro connectors sticking up. Plug in > a processor card of your choice, graphic cards, you name it you could have > it. I have mentioned this before, but here goes. There is a lot of cheap, third-party add-ons for PCs. So, what about a interface which connects the SAM bus to the PCs ISA bus? Then we can take a standard PC tower, pull out the old sluggish Pentium Pro board, snap our belowed SAM into it, add an accelrator card (with some extra logic for bus i/o) and voila.....this should not cost that much either..? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:26:48 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030111830.00917254@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:18:30 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 926 Lines: 28 At 05:46 AM 10/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >Status: >It would be nice to think that the 'Son Of The Son Of SAM' would be nothing >but a back-plane with a number of 96 way euro connectors sticking up. Plug in >a processor card of your choice, graphic cards, you name it you could have >it. > >This does raise the question of what could the B line of pins be used for? >Anybods got some ideas? How about a new interface standard which uses the >extra 32 lines for inter-interface communication which is not passed through >to SAM/SAMSON? Just a thought. 8 of them should be data lines. 16 of them should be address pins. One (or two) should be "extension select" lines so that hardware can tell whether or not the extended bus is being used... That leaves 6 left... DMAREQ, DMAACK lines? The extra Z380 pins? ?? ? (note: the data & address lines allow us to expand to using the Z380 at a later date if we want to...) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:26:49 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030111832.00912704@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:18:32 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 657 Lines: 20 At 05:46 AM 10/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >Status: > >In a message dated 30/10/96 09:05:05, you write: > >>Can I suggest that an important part of the SAMson design >>should be standardising some of the software - for example >>the SAM should have a very definite text file format. Also, >>how about a standard (public domain?) text editor which all >>programs requiring an editor can use - assemblers, etc. >> >>-Andy > >I think this could well come if SAMSON moves towards a GUI type system. I know it's rather bandwagon grabbing, but I think the SAMSON O/S should have Java Virtual Machine support as standard. And ActiveX if we can manage it. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:26:49 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030112018.0091f0f4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:20:18 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Hello. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 518 Lines: 14 At 12:03 PM 10/30/96 +0100, you wrote: >Lynx is a text-only based WWW browser. That does not mean that it's not >possible to run graphical based WWW browsers on the SAM - it just needs >to be done. Actually, if you have a terminal comms program you only need >to connect to your ISP to run lynx and as I understand Termite already >does that? Ummm... if you mean that you can dial into a shell account and use Lynx from there, yes you can. If you mean I've implemented TCP/IP, SLIP and LYNX, I've not yet :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:31:21 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030112459.0090fa14@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:24:59 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 662 Lines: 16 >I have mentioned this before, but here goes. There is a lot of >cheap, third-party add-ons for PCs. So, what about a interface >which connects the SAM bus to the PCs ISA bus? Then we can take a >standard PC tower, pull out the old sluggish Pentium Pro board, snap >our belowed SAM into it, add an accelrator card (with some extra >logic for bus i/o) and voila.....this should not cost that much >either..? This also raises another important point. I think we should be considering moving towards using standard PC cases, with PC size & shape interface cards -- if just for the fact that the SAM cases can't be fabricated any more (as far as I know). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:31:21 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:28:59 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610301128.AA29378@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 674 Lines: 19 > At 12:03 PM 10/30/96 +0100, you wrote: > >Lynx is a text-only based WWW browser. That does not mean that it's not > >possible to run graphical based WWW browsers on the SAM - it just needs > >to be done. Actually, if you have a terminal comms program you only need > >to connect to your ISP to run lynx and as I understand Termite already > >does that? > > Ummm... if you mean that you can dial into a shell account and use Lynx from > there, yes you can. That was what I meant, yes. > > If you mean I've implemented TCP/IP, SLIP and LYNX, I've not yet :) That is what I said (I think) if we want to have a graphical browser, like ....Arena. :) Oh...PPP! :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:55:01 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030114723.009125e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:47:23 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SON OF SAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 530 Lines: 19 At 05:46 AM 10/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>How small is "small amounts of money"? >> >>Given the price of the rest of their chips, I think we're talking of at most >>10UKP... probably a *LOT* less. >>Simon > >More details please Simon, this could be worth looking at. Right... set your browser on stun to: http://www.zilog.com/ In particular, you'll want the Maidstone Zilog Sales Dept (Who'll give you pricing info and send you manuals free of charge), and the Soundblaster DSP (when I can find out which one it is...) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 11:56:38 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961030114724.0091abac@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:47:24 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Hello. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 435 Lines: 15 >> If you mean I've implemented TCP/IP, SLIP and LYNX, I've not yet :) > >That is what I said (I think) if we want to have a graphical browser, >like ....Arena. :) Oh...PPP! :) Graphical though... dodgy given the standard SAM modes & resolution.... PPP ... let's get SLIP working first ;) Other than that... we could do with implementing some stuff... I've got the docs for the Truetype font spec if anyone wants a copy ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 12:30:48 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:25:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. In-Reply-To: <9610301128.AA29378@asmal.edh-net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 330 Lines: 14 On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Frode Tenneboe wrote: > > That is what I said (I think) if we want to have a graphical browser, > like ....Arena. :) Oh...PPP! :) > W3's 'I Like crashing even more than Netscape' browser is OK, but Amaya is better .... All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 12:44:42 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:42:37 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610301242.AA29832@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 731 Lines: 24 > >> If you mean I've implemented TCP/IP, SLIP and LYNX, I've not yet :) > > > >That is what I said (I think) if we want to have a graphical browser, > >like ....Arena. :) Oh...PPP! :) > > Graphical though... dodgy given the standard SAM modes & resolution.... Remember - it was for future enhancements, remember. Agreed, there is no use in even trying to port, say Arena, with 512K and a resolution of 256x192x16. > > PPP ... let's get SLIP working first ;) > > Other than that... we could do with implementing some stuff... Right. If only I was finished with the bathroom... > > I've got the docs for the Truetype font spec if anyone wants a copy ;) Then we'll really need discspace, resolution and faster CPU. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 13:56:00 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:00:01 +0100 Message-Id: <96103013000031@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 255 Lines: 19 to imc: This machine is on a network and the time is a) not my problem and b) irrelevant. Throw off those shackles of the imperialistic society! Time is a concept devised to keep us down! (Sir, it's time to leave.) No no! Break free! (glurk) Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 13:56:00 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:03:43 +0100 Message-Id: <96103013034324@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 198 Lines: 10 >What colour do you want it to be? Er, of course... We need something modern and dynamic, flash yet subtle, something that says 'buy me, I'm great', something inspired... How about white? Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 14:30:24 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:18:54 +0100 Message-Id: <96103013185420@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 530 Lines: 14 I really think that SAMSON should be GUI based, like Apple Macs are. As far as I understand Macs, the main GUI bits (pointer movement, window drawing, file management, menus, etc.) are held in the ROM, and the extra bits (menubar clock, backdrops, flashy bits) are loaded into the RAM from hard disk - thus allowing for upgrades to the GUI. I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? Would it be possible on the SAMSON? Who would write it? (I know of at least one that's in production and looks v.good). Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 14:43:51 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:38:59 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610301438.AA00988@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 902 Lines: 23 > > I really think that SAMSON should be GUI based, like Apple Macs are. > > As far as I understand Macs, the main GUI bits (pointer movement, window > drawing, file management, menus, etc.) are held in the ROM, and the extra > bits (menubar clock, backdrops, flashy bits) are loaded into the RAM from > hard disk - thus allowing for upgrades to the GUI. > > I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? Firstly, I do not! There is nothing that can slow down work more efficient than a GUI - especially a badly designed one. No, I want a CLI - in one of the ends. > > Would it be possible on the SAMSON? Who would write it? (I know of at least > one that's in production and looks v.good). With a high enough resolution it is possible to have a multiwindowed GUI - otherwise: drop it! You need at least 1024x768x8 for a GUI to have any effect other than for fancability. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 14:49:28 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:42:30 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 353 Lines: 13 > I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? What's really needed is a good CLI that a GUI *could* go on top of. >From what I can remember, RISCOS handled this quite well by having its '*' prompt CLI as an underlying I/F, and a copy of the GUI or basic which could be loaded on top of it (*DESKTOP and *BASIC as I recall :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:17:29 1996 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:46:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <96103013185420@morse.ntu.ac.uk> from "SW>" at Oct 30, 96 01:18:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Oct30.154948+0100_met.46995-83+231@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 657 Lines: 18 > > > I really think that SAMSON should be GUI based, like Apple Macs are. > > As far as I understand Macs, the main GUI bits (pointer movement, window > drawing, file management, menus, etc.) are held in the ROM, and the extra > bits (menubar clock, backdrops, flashy bits) are loaded into the RAM from > hard disk - thus allowing for upgrades to the GUI. > > I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? We need both... And we definitely need some sort of programmiung language built in... and preferably an assembler too. We also need to specify an executable file type for code so that it can allocate memory space, etc... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:17:59 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <26784.199610301447@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Samson Software To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:47:54 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199610291941_MC1-B77-29F1@compuserve.com> from "Thomas Harte" at Oct 29, 96 07:41:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 375 Lines: 10 > > Is there a SAM C compiler? If so, how would I get it? I write PC > games in C at the minute, and presuming the Samson was fully compatible > with code from the SAM C compiler, There is, but (a) it's not very good, (b) it doesn't have floating point, and (c) you can get it from Fred Publishing. One of the Colin's will give you the address or whatever... Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:18:24 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <28090.199610301455@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:55:42 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee" at Oct 29, 96 04:18:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 471 Lines: 13 > Depends what platform you're on ...? > Unix. And I /still/ hate it, even after 5 weeks. About the only good thing is the fact that it can multitask - apart from that, it's a total loss... NB - this is not an invitation for anyone else to tell me how great Unix is. I don't care how great you think it is. It "sucks". > (And that was a question, you can tell by the question mark, some people > please take note ... ) You're an evil person at heart, aren't you? :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:29:08 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:19:10 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030101908_1382023437@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 562 Lines: 17 In a message dated 30/10/96 11:29:20, you write: >This also raises another important point. > >I think we should be considering moving towards using standard PC cases, >with PC size & shape interface cards -- if just for the fact that the SAM >cases can't be fabricated any more (as far as I know). > >Simon True, the tool for the SAM case still exists but would cost mega-bucks to reuse. PC cases are: a) cheap; b) easy to come by; and c) come with bloody good power supplies built-in. As to the interface cards, wellll - go on then - persuade me.... Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:29:30 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:23:05 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610301523.AA01286@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Great Egg Race... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 450 Lines: 15 > > > Depends what platform you're on ...? > > > > Unix. And I /still/ hate it, even after 5 weeks. About the only good thing is the fact > that it can multitask - apart from that, it's a total loss... > > NB - this is not an invitation for anyone else to tell me how great Unix is. I don't > care how great you think it is. It "sucks". Give it 5 years of your life and you can't live without. :) -Frode who wants a linux port to SAMSON :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:30:22 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <1168.199610301516@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Allan? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:16:40 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 85 Lines: 1 Allan? It must have been you that wanted the sound stuff - what's you email address? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:30:22 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:19:14 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030101913_1582718861@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 151 Lines: 9 In a message dated 30/10/96 11:51:28, you write: >I've got the docs for the Truetype font spec if anyone wants a copy ;) > >Simon Yes please. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:40:42 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:33:05 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D331FB2408@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 933 Lines: 24 > >This also raises another important point. > > > >I think we should be considering moving towards using standard PC cases, > >with PC size & shape interface cards -- if just for the fact that the SAM > >cases can't be fabricated any more (as far as I know). > > > >Simon > > True, the tool for the SAM case still exists but would cost mega-bucks to > reuse. > PC cases are: a) cheap; b) easy to come by; and c) come with bloody good > power supplies built-in. > As to the interface cards, wellll - go on then - persuade me.... > > Bob. >From being absent for a bit, I'm not too hot on what's going on Is SAMSON trying to be a SAM clone, or a SAM/PC hybrid thingy? davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 15:43:04 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610301529.PAA01920@willow.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS CLI or GUI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:29:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9610301438.AA00988@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Oct 30, 96 03:38:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1614 Lines: 40 > > I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? > What's really needed is a good CLI that a GUI *could* go on top of. I couldn't agree more. A GUI on top of a CLI, not the other way around! We need a programmers CLI that can actualy be programed and used as a programming langage in its own right. We could use something evolved from SAM basic for this purpose. i.e. lowest level:M_code (!) next level: SAM Basic with well integrated HDos etc. (CLI) 3rd level: GUI 4th level: Window based programs The window based programs to go with the machine must include: i, The standard text editor. ii, A top quality Art program (i.e. more like SAMpaint that Flash!) iii,The cool terminal and web viewer. iv, A quality Sam C (so you can write more window programs!) As C is a compiled language it will work as well under the GUI and look nicer too. This may sound fairly familier (similar to windows under MSdos) but our set up would be far superior as the Sam Basic will be usefull for more that disk management. When in the modified SAMbasic we could have a simple command to slow down the processor limit the machine to its first 4 graphic modes and turn on the 'cripple' hardware to make the snazzy sound chip pretend to be the old one etc... to get near perfect old SAM emulation. When the machine is first turned on we should go straight into the 3rd level (GUI mode) to save putting off any new Sam owners that are not interested in programming. All we need now are some sensible suggestions to speed up the processor(s!) and to supply some 'serious' graphics modes! Numb From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:02:30 1996 Subject: Re: Hello. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:43:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <961030101913_1582718861@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Oct 30, 96 10:19:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Oct30.164908+0100_met.47017-84+221@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 487 Lines: 18 > In a message dated 30/10/96 11:51:28, you write: > > >I've got the docs for the Truetype font spec if anyone wants a copy ;) > > > >Simon > > Yes please. > > Bob. Be warned - it's long (300 pages printed out), and it will involve BEzier curve drawing, filled polygon drawing, and someone with a bit of nouse (so that they can cache the rendered fonts when they're done). I'll email it / stick it on my FTP site for you tomorrow when I've got it off my machine at home. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:02:32 1996 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:47:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <5D331FB2408@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Oct 30, 96 03:33:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Oct30.165400+0100_met.47030-84+224@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 859 Lines: 22 > From being absent for a bit, I'm not too hot on what's going on > Is SAMSON trying to be a SAM clone, or a SAM/PC hybrid thingy? It's a sort of SAM 2... SAM compatible, but with lots of useful bells & whistles. SAM/PC compatibility would only be desirable for: 1. File transfer (disks/serial comms anyone?) 2. Using cheap video cards (or other hardware cards). The main thing though is that: 1. Using PC size cards, you can have the SAM motherboard redesigned to fit into a PC case, and the cards will then be a lot bigger than the standard SAM interface boards, allowing for much easier design, and the ability to fit much more in the board. 2. PC cases have good PSU's, are cheap, and are shielded usually... and allow for a lot of extensibility. 3. PC cases can use PC floppy drives without them looking ugly on teh front of the SAM :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:17:42 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:57:16 GMT From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610301557.PAA01953@willow.bris.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS; CLI or GUI? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: pGJRhcgbsGLtz0MF4I8X+Q== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1696 Lines: 41 > > I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? > > What's really needed is a good CLI that a GUI *could* go on top of. > I could not agree more! We need a GUI on top of a CLI (not the other way around!). I beleve we should use a modified version of SAMbasic as the CLI. I propose 3 levels... 1,M_Code (!); 2,SamBasic with well integrated HDos etc. (CLI); 3,Solaris like GUI; 4,Programs for the GUI. I think we NEED these programs for the GUI: i, The standard text editor ii, A quality Art program (more like SAMpaint than Flash!) iii,The cool terminal and web viewers/tools iv, The quality C program (for creating more windows programs!). Provisional: v, Why not throw in the SOS version of GiMon! and an assembler -you will get more software and quicker if we do! This set up may sound a little too like the windows under MSdos arrangement, but it is far superior as the CLI will actually do something! I also think that we could implement the old Sam emulation in the CLI level. We could have a single Basic command to slow down the processor, limit us to the first 4 graphics modes, turn on the 'cripple' hardware that makes the cool sound chip act just like the old one etc... and have near perfect Emulation. As it is a compiled language SAM C can run just as well under the GUI and it will look nicer! When the machine is first turned on I think we should have to go straight into the 3rd level (GUI mode) to save scaring off and new samsters who are not interested in programming. All we need now are some sensible suggestions on how to speed up the processor(s!) and how to supply some impressive graphics modes! Thanks Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:17:43 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:59:47 GMT From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610301559.PAA01961@willow.bris.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS colour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: klzMIak1NdTGB0R5q8k8Sg== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1368 Lines: 45 > >What colour do you want it to be? > > Er, of course... We need something modern and dynamic, flash yet subtle, > something that says 'buy me, I'm great', something inspired... > > > > How about white? > > > Al. > It MUST be black! (with blue/cyan trim?) If I was asked to give the single biggest and most important design floor of the Sam it has to be the colour. Bob> One of Bruce Gordon's original ideas was that ultimatly the SAM Coupe Bob>would Bob>have expanded to the point where the original SAM was only a 'super Bob>keyboard' Bob>to the rest of the machine. What did he envissage the completed machine to look like? I know that this may seem trivial but I think that having a common idea of the appearance of the 'new' machine will help us focus (and prevent huge arguing later). The PC style tower is a no-go area! We must attract new users as soon as possible so why not design it as a seperate machine to start with and think about the modified exsisting Sam version later. This way it will be as cheap as possible to the new share of the market that could be gained. If the reforms are going to be as extensive as is being suggested at the moment (SVGA!) there will be little of any use in the exsisting machine anyway -the keyboard and that is about it. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:17:51 1996 Subject: SAMSON Spec To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:59:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Oct30.171100+0100_met.47003-79+193@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 896 Lines: 22 Hi there, Just a thought: We need in this design provision for: 1. Proper PC style Printer sockets. Bidirectional too (so people could use, for example, IOMega ZIP Drives with their SAMs). Possibly they'll need to follow the HP/Microsoft/(someone else I can't remember) fast printer out signal spec. I'll see if I can dig up deatails on this. 2. 1.44 Mb Disk Drives. In this day and age there's no excuse for not having High Density disks working. UNofortunately, the only chip that's VL1772-02 compatible which can do this (the 1772-02-02) as standard costs 13.50UKP per unit from Exclusive Electronic Components (who specialise in tracking down hard-to-find components). Minimum order 100 too... and even then that's pushing it (they prefer the 1000 unit mark). 3. Redesigned motherboard. The power rails need fixing, the video output needs cleaning up... lots of bits... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:22:45 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:21:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D3FDFE210A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 657 Lines: 17 > It's a sort of SAM 2... SAM compatible, but with lots of useful bells & > whistles. .. but a SAM compatible what? Something completely new or based around the SAM / Sam accelerator / PC / what? > SAM/PC compatibility would only be desirable for: > 1. File transfer (disks/serial comms anyone?) > 2. Using cheap video cards (or other hardware cards). ..but this is surely a good thing! davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:22:57 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:23:16 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS CLI or GUI Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D407EC7F1D@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 474 Lines: 11 > All we need now are some sensible suggestions to speed up the processor(s!) > and to supply some 'serious' graphics modes! How are these modes gonna be implemented in hardware? Can we just nick an SVGA card? davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:30:28 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:25:39 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS colour Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D411CD7A14@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 512 Lines: 11 > suggested at the moment (SVGA!) there will be little of any use in the exsisting > machine anyway -the keyboard and that is about it. Maybe not even the keyboard.. I prefer a bit of space between my alphabet and my numberpad / function keys ... davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:30:43 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:27:14 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS colour Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D418FC4D15@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 636 Lines: 12 > It MUST be black! (with blue/cyan trim?) > If I was asked to give the single biggest and most important design floor of > the Sam it has to be the colour. Eeer, so saying it should be black with cyan trim hardy helps the situation does it.. ;) I think grey. Can you still get that spray paint with grains of minerals in it? You could make it look like a boulder! (cool) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 16:31:14 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:11:03 GMT From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610301611.QAA01983@willow.bris.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS GUI or CLI? -sorry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: xY2SIcLWZAac4V3R3pLypg== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 360 Lines: 13 Oups! I tried to sent one message and my terminal crashed telling me that it could not send it. So I wrote the message again and manage to send it this time. I then look at my mailbox and find that both were sent, each worded a little differently ;) What lesson do we learn from this? - don't make SAMSON as silly as a SON. or is it SUN? :o/ Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 17:26:58 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:13:52 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030121351_1612492698@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 831 Lines: 24 In a message dated 30/10/96 14:22:40, you write: > > >I really think that SAMSON should be GUI based, like Apple Macs are. > >As far as I understand Macs, the main GUI bits (pointer movement, window >drawing, file management, menus, etc.) are held in the ROM, and the extra >bits (menubar clock, backdrops, flashy bits) are loaded into the RAM from >hard disk - thus allowing for upgrades to the GUI. > >I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? > >Would it be possible on the SAMSON? Who would write it? (I know of at least >one that's in production and looks v.good). > >Al. Must start at a CLI (I feel) with SAM Basic, because that is th emain advantage my SAM has over the PC. I can just switch on and type PRINT 16*1638+12 and get an answer - no delay. Another reason for havinf the system in SRAM. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 17:45:32 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:02:04 GMT From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610301702.RAA02042@willow.bris.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS Bypassing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: ssjXerutHWJWLxSxBKwmmw== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1587 Lines: 38 > > All we need now are some sensible suggestions to speed up the processor(s!) > > and to supply some 'serious' graphics modes! > > How are these modes gonna be implemented in hardware? > Can we just nick an SVGA card? > I hope we don't get that PC compatible! I was thinking along the lines of a new ASIC chip. If we get it running fast enough it should be possible to have that sort of resolution. On the other hand we may need a seperate 'card' so it can have its own fast memory (I have no idea what I am talking about!). I say 'card' but I don't actualy mean a seperate card. Why don't we put all of the standard SAMSOM stuff on one board but design it in such a way that the sections can be bypassed (made completely redundent) and replaced by real cards when better hardware comes along. If we put all of the standard stuff on one board it should work out cheaper. A similar setup could be achieved with the ROM. It could be filled up with the standard stuff when first released but have sections that can be bypassed and re-routed to the RAM. Just like it is at the moment -but with more vectors. If the machine ends up as hard-disk dependent, a full and usefull ROM would speed up the boot up procedure (one of my major complaints about PC's/Macs/Suns). The upgrades need only be loaded into RAM by the drive, not the whole thing. Numb. (I seem to be expressing my opinion a lot today -a bad idea considering my Prolog deadline!). Just a note: We should try to keep up to date in our naming of the threds to make it easier with such a big topic. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 17:45:44 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:22:50 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D505CC0617@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 772 Lines: 18 > Must start at a CLI (I feel) with SAM Basic, because that is th emain > advantage my SAM has over the PC. I can just switch on and type PRINT > 16*1638+12 and get an answer - no delay. Another reason for havinf the system > in SRAM. > Ok : but how about starting at this '3rd' level of intuitiveness for the sake of beauty, and, oooh, I don't know, some sort of CMOS option to boot up in CLI mode instead. Or maybe a key combo thing : hold F5 at bootup for the CLI instead of the GUI (just a thought) daveee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 17:45:44 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:37:45 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam In-Reply-To: <961030121351_1612492698@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1597 Lines: 34 Having just waded through sixty-odd messages, the Samson discussion seems to be getting a bit hazy. *Specific Question:* Does the plan currently involve a souped-up or faster processor, eg Z380? IMHO, better speed is not simply a want, it is a must-have. Nobody in the big wide world will take a computer seriously when it's got a single figure clock speed. (Nor will you fool people by quoting it in kHz) The current SAM can't even scroll it's own 24K screen in one frame. What on earth is going to happen if we have this increased screen resolution which somebody was talking about taking up "only" 512K?! Although the Z380 solves many problems, such as the need for paging, its speed still won't really be fast enough for that sort of screen, unless we get either a graphics co-processor or hardware scrolling (of which the former is probably the more flexible - could be used for sprites etc too - but the latter may be easier to implement well) Not that I know much about hardware, but I'm trying to consider what the programmer would find easiest to set up. NB As for program levels and what should load up first, couldn't this be made selectable? (Whichever you want first comes loaded on your ROM equivalent) Discussions about the colour are perhaps superflous at this stage, unless anybody has decided who or what the intended market is. Education is probably a good start, particularly if the machine comes out much cheaper than an average PC. Schools generally don't need the super-duper Pentium power. I mean, Bolton School only upgraded from their BBCs last year! Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 18:30:31 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:15:14 GMT Message-Id: <199610301815.SAA19030@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A SICk powersupply, methinks... From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 754 Lines: 21 Ok, Ok, OK.... Whats am goding on yer? I'm away from one week on a course and all hell brakes loose. Course was crap. Advanced Office Systems. They start off with how to keep your desk clear - pass the work to someone who has not gone on the course. :-) Oooooooooo. Just seen what lots of the mail is about. Good bedtime reading I think. BTW. Everyone enjoy the Gloucester Show. Sorry I did not get there until just after 1pm, the traffic past Brum was F*&?$^g awful. Nice to chat with Colin (where was Colin.A?) and Bob, and of course the lovely Christina (now I've made Colin.A. sit up and take notice) he,he,he... And where was SAM Supp? Are they still going? Or did their web page put everyone off them? Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 20:41:26 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:38:13 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030153812_1515648309@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Spec Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1215 Lines: 36 In a message dated 30/10/96 16:15:30, you write: >Hi there, > >Just a thought: > >We need in this design provision for: > >1. Proper PC style Printer sockets. Bidirectional too (so people could >use, for example, IOMega ZIP Drives with their SAMs). Possibly they'll >need to follow the HP/Microsoft/(someone else I can't remember) fast >printer out signal spec. I'll see if I can dig up deatails on this. Possible. But I can see problems. > >2. 1.44 Mb Disk Drives. In this day and age there's no excuse for not >having High Density disks working. UNofortunately, the only chip that's >VL1772-02 compatible which can do this (the 1772-02-02) as standard costs >13.50UKP per unit from Exclusive Electronic Components (who specialise in >tracking down hard-to-find components). Minimum order 100 too... and even >then that's pushing it (they prefer the 1000 unit mark). Will look into this one. That is only a little more expensive than the existing 1772. > >3. Redesigned motherboard. The power rails need fixing, the video output >needs cleaning up... lots of bits... Yep, in the full SAMSON, agreed. Using the PC power supply will solve some problems but others will need looking at. > >Simon > > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 20:41:26 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:38:13 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030153813_1582757173@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS CLI or GUI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 266 Lines: 11 In a message dated 30/10/96 16:22:05, you write: >How are these modes gonna be implemented in hardware? >Can we just nick an SVGA card? > >davee No, cos that needs the hardware system of the PC. But the chips on the cards are available I am led to believe. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 20:41:27 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:38:12 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030153810_1415849823@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS colour - reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1891 Lines: 52 In a message dated 30/10/96 16:15:17, you write: [cut] >It MUST be black! (with blue/cyan trim?) >If I was asked to give the single biggest and most important design floor of >the Sam it has to be the colour. Ok, how about a choice of colours? I would opt for standard PC myself (see below) > >What did he envisage the completed machine to look like? A PC look-alike, with a removable keyboard that actually did something. >I know that this may seem trivial but I think that having a common idea of >the >appearance of the 'new' machine will help us focus (and prevent huge arguing >later). The PC style tower is a no-go area! The PC tower seems to be the best route to follow for reasons given before. Colours are not important until you come to plugging in the disc drives and CD ROM reader. I have seen some in black but only at a high premium. > >We must attract new users as soon as possible so why not design it as a >separate >machine to start with and think about the modified existing Sam version >later. >This way it will be as cheap as possible to the new share of the market that >could be gained. If the reforms are going to be as extensive as is being >suggested at the moment (SVGA!) there will be little of any use in the >existing >machine anyway -the keyboard and that is about it. You miss the point. We cannot 'magic' the new machine out of thin air - in fact it may never make it to production as there are a LOT of hurdles to overcome first. So, if we take it one-step-at-a-time we:- a) stand a chance of getting there. b) we will have a working system that can be demonstrated to potential money-men. c) even if SAMSON never makes it - we will have achieved the effect of producing lots of new things for SAM. In other words we can have our cake and eat it - if we are lucky. > > Numb. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 20:41:30 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:38:14 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030153814_1679626933@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS GUI or CLI? -sorry Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 245 Lines: 11 In a message dated 30/10/96 16:22:53, you write: >What lesson do we learn from this? >- don't make SAMSON as silly as a SON. > >or is it SUN? :o/ As a loyal SUN reader (wife wont let me have The Sport) I resent that. (double big grin) Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 20:41:30 1996 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:38:17 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961030153815_1846581429@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS colour Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 569 Lines: 16 In a message dated 30/10/96 16:29:34, you write: >> It MUST be black! (with blue/cyan trim?) >> If I was asked to give the single biggest and most important design floor >of >> the Sam it has to be the colour. >Eeer, so saying it should be black with cyan trim hardy helps the >situation does it.. ;) >I think grey. Can you still get that spray paint with grains of >minerals in it? You could make it look like a boulder! (cool) >davee Have two black SAMs here. Bruce once did one in green and brown camouflage and I always wanted on in transparant plastic. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 21:26:40 1996 Message-Id: <199610302126.VAA00222@mail.enterprise.net> From: David Munden To: sam-users Subject: Re: *Off* the warpath for a change - Reply Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:53:41 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 234 Lines: 6 > Slightly off the subject but one handy thing I do have is > a Teledisk file of a blank sam formatted disc, so if I get > caught out without one I can whip one up on my PC. Funny enough I did exactly the same thing last sunday. :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Oct 30 22:10:46 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:09:45 GMT Subject: Sam FTP site Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <2325AE17AF@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 545 Lines: 11 Okay peoples, I'm slightly embarrassed because although I have tried and tried, I can't work out how to un-pack the files. The only thing I have been able to use from the FTP site is Icebum (I think it's called). I've no idea how to use teledisk even after following the docs, so I would be very grateful if someone could mail me directly (don't want to annoy the others on the mailing list as you have all probably been through this before) and tell me step by step how to download these files and use them :) Thanks a lot! Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 07:51:03 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:52:10 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610310752.AA01616@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS colour - reply X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1609 Lines: 38 > a) stand a chance of getting there. > b) we will have a working system that can be demonstrated to potential > money-men. To convince them, you have to have a original system. You can't expect to come with a properitary system and compete with Intel/MS or Motorola/Apple. They will alugh in your face, I'm affraid. However, a fast, even-simpler-to-use, with lots of applications at a fair price, you might stand a slight chance. > c) even if SAMSON never makes it - we will have achieved the effect of > producing lots of new things for SAM. A very good point. Perhaps we should come up with a prioritised list of what is needed, but perhaps first decide whether or not to put it in a PC box? If you build it inside a PC box you first have to make the SAM-ISA bus converter. Hmm...I suppose that could be tricky as the current I/O is limited by the speed of the ASIC and not entirely compatible with the speed of the ISA bus?! Anyway, this has to be decided so that future designs know which bus to base themselves on. What I would like to see is as follows: 1) Accelrator (possibly with DMA?) 2) A new RAM module 3) A good, efficient ISA/SCSI interface (not needed if ISA bus is chosen) 4) Higher resolution with HW-scrolling (makes more types of games avaialbel) and a separate graphics co-procssor (takes the load of the processor - but is harder to program) (not needed if ISA bus). 5) An EEPROM/SRAM/ROM boot block. But more importantly, who's going to design this. The only person I know with the know-how is Simon. Well, you have Bruce Gordon and Adrian Parker, but where are they? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 09:17:53 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:15:00 +0100 Message-Id: <96103109150061@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 162 Lines: 5 If you're going to go for PC cases, choose nice ones. So many PCs are incredibly ugly and horrid. Be careful here - and choose the same one for all of them. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 09:30:10 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:25:25 +0100 Message-Id: <96103109252325@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS colour X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 11 Black? BLACK!? It's a bit neanderthal, isn't it? Look in computer mags from 15 years ago, you'll see black computers. Look in catalogues today - you'll see cream computers. Perhaps it would stand out from the crowd. How about mid-dark grey, like a Speccy +2a (not the +2 light grey). Sorry about the Speccy comparison. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 09:33:24 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:29:05 +0100 Message-Id: <96103109290492@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS colour X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Lines: 8 Erm, regarding colour again: There's 2 SAM keyboards, isn't there? The brown-grey and the blue-grey. The blue-grey looks miles better than the brown-grey, so how about something along those lines. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 09:40:14 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:33:38 +0100 Message-Id: <96103109333803@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 405 Lines: 13 CLI or GUI? Well the man in the street doesn't want to learn new commands. People hate that sort of thing. How about having it user configurable. When the machine is bought, it's set up for the GUI, but it's possible to set it up so that the CLI can be startup instead. You can't really have a modern machine without a GUI, though. Who wants to type PRINT 12345*54321-9876 on startup anyway? :) Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 09:48:45 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031094500.00909254@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:45:00 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS; CLI or GUI? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 495 Lines: 15 At 03:57 PM 10/30/96 GMT, you wrote: > 2,SamBasic with well integrated HDos etc. (CLI); Or rather a CLI with well integrated SAMBASIC? We need a CLI command of some sort, to allow for quick & easy file manipulation, using a UNIX style command shell... BASIC, of course, could provide a very nice batch language for the CLI (and it wouldn't take up any more memory, as we'd have the BASIC running anyway). All we need is a mechanism to pass parameters to BASIC programs from the CLI. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 09:48:45 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031094501.009131f8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:45:01 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS colour - reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 897 Lines: 22 At 08:52 AM 10/31/96 +0100, you wrote: >But more importantly, who's going to design this. The only person I >know with the know-how is Simon. Well, you have Bruce Gordon and >Adrian Parker, but where are they? Woah there... My hardware knowledge is limited to conceptual knowledge at best (well, most of it is - I'm a dab hand at fixing things, and I *have* designed an upgrade version of the SAM Comms interface -- Bob, you might want to have a look at that some time, the designs are on the FTP site I think... either called GEMINI or DUOCOMM). Sure, plug me into the list, but don't forget: Martin Rookyard (the guy who understands, implements and extends my ideas way beyond the original designs). Simon N. Goodwin (I think he's working on a SCSI design -- it's not that difficult actually, and but for the price of SCSI drives, could be implemented in about 5 chips on the SAM). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 09:55:15 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:52:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam In-Reply-To: <96103109333803@morse.ntu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 614 Lines: 20 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, A Clarkson - BSC(H) COMP SYST/COMP STUD wrote: > CLI or GUI? > > Well the man in the street doesn't want to learn new commands. People hate > that sort of thing. But some of us (Especially 'unix freaks'!) prefer CLI's to GUI's, mostly 'coz I haven't got the desk space to fiddle with a mouse _all_ the time .. I like the idea of having the startup dependant on keypresses on power-up/reset, like Dave Hooper ( I think ...) said, something like holding down f5 etc. if you want to start as CLI .. All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:05:36 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:58:22 +0100 Message-Id: <96103109582169@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no Subject: CLI or GUI? X-Vms-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 329 Lines: 10 You've got to remember that while we're all experienced in using computers, adapting to new environments and commands (I've had to get used to VAX, UNIX and MORSE in the past few weeks) and so on, the buyers of this machine won't be. You've got to give them something they can understand and that doesn't scare them. Boo! Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:14:53 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:04:55 +0100 Message-Id: <96103110045493@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 423 Lines: 10 Why F5? It's another one of those computer guys things - let it be something more obvious or easy to implement. Why not SPACE or RETURN or something? I know F5 was only an example, but it's a typical computer person thing to say - we're all guilty of it. I think the SAMSON should, like the SAM, be a beginners computer AND an experts computer, but you've got to let people become experts when they're ready for it. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:14:54 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:16:22 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610311016.AA02720@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 641 Lines: 13 > You've got to remember that while we're all experienced in using computers, > adapting to new environments and commands (I've had to get used to VAX, > UNIX and MORSE in the past few weeks) and so on, the buyers of this machine > won't be. You've got to give them something they can understand and that > doesn't scare them. When you buy a book you have to know how to read to get the full (or any) benefits from the book. To drive a car you have to have a drivers license. To operate on people you have to have a medical exam. To operate a VCR you need the operator guide. Why should a computer be userfirendly at first glance? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:21:40 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 05:19:46 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961031051945_1348598484@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS Bypassing Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1903 Lines: 59 In a message dated 30/10/96 17:41:36, you write: >> > All we need now are some sensible suggestions to speed up the >processor(s!) >> > and to supply some 'serious' graphics modes! >> >> How are these modes gonna be implemented in hardware? >> Can we just nick an SVGA card? >> >I hope we don't get that PC compatible! >I was thinking along the lines of a new ASIC chip. If we get it running fast >enough it should be possible to have that sort of resolution. A new ASIC would not be possible, on grounds of cost - at least not in the early days. But there are graphics chips that could be used on a special board. > >On the other hand we may need a seperate 'card' so it can have its own fast >memory (I have no idea what I am talking about!). It sounds good to me. > >I say 'card' but I don't actualy mean a seperate card. >Why don't we put all of the standard SAMSOM stuff on one board but design it >in >such a way that the sections can be bypassed (made completely redundent) and >replaced by real cards when better hardware comes along. >If we put all of the standard stuff on one board it should work out cheaper. See notes in other mailings about how I see things fitting together. > >A similar setup could be achieved with the ROM. It could be filled up with >the >standard stuff when first released but have sections that can be bypassed and > >re-routed to the RAM. Just like it is at the moment -but with more vectors. With SRAM there is no need, want to get rid of a bit - rub it out and replace it with something else. > >[cut] > > > Numb. >(I seem to be expressing my opinion a lot today -a bad idea considering my >Prolog deadline!). > >Just a note: >We should try to keep up to date in our naming of the threds to make it >easier >with such a big topic. Good idea, but I don't have time to think of a way of doing it so I will leave that to someone to do. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:21:40 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 05:19:47 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961031051942_1315150036@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1741 Lines: 47 In a message dated 30/10/96 17:41:35, you write: > >Having just waded through sixty-odd messages, the Samson discussion seems >to be getting a bit hazy. *Specific Question:* Does the plan currently >involve a souped-up or faster processor, eg Z380? Possibley - but not necessarily. How about more than one processor? > >IMHO, better speed is not simply a want, it is a must-have. Nobody in the >big wide world will take a computer seriously when it's got a single >figure clock speed. (Nor will you fool people by quoting it in kHz) The >current SAM can't even scroll it's own 24K screen in one frame. What on >earth is going to happen if we have this increased screen resolution which >somebody was talking about taking up "only" 512K?! Agreed, but there are other ways of getting there. 2nd processor or hardware scrolling for example (and as you said). Any other ideas? > >[cut] > >NB As for program levels and what should load up first, couldn't this be >made selectable? (Whichever you want first comes loaded on your ROM >equivalent) exactly. Using SRAM will allow people to easy taylor the machine to their way of doing things - but still give you instant start-up. > >Discussions about the colour are perhaps superflous at this stage, unless >anybody has decided who or what the intended market is. Well said, the colour of a computer's skin should not affect the way we view it. >Education is >probably a good start, particularly if the machine comes out much cheaper >than an average PC. Schools generally don't need the super-duper Pentium >power. I mean, Bolton School only upgraded from their BBCs last year! And many schools still have their BBCs. Anyone ever looked at the Z80 version of BBC Basic? > >Andrew Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:21:41 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:17:04 GMT From: Diggory Gray (PWE) Message-Id: <199610311017.KAA22567@ugs2> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS colour X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 403 Lines: 14 > >> It MUST be black! (with blue/cyan trim?) > >> If I was asked to give the single biggest and most important design floor > >of > >> the Sam it has to be the colour. > Have two black SAMs here. Bruce once did one in green and brown camouflage > and I always wanted on in transparant plastic. > > Bob. > Maybe you could produce SAMSON's in several differant colours and let people choose? Diggory From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:30:56 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:21:54 GMT From: Diggory Gray (PWE) Message-Id: <199610311021.KAA22837@ugs2> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Cc: SAM@phymat.bham.ac.uk, processor?@phymat.bham.ac.uk X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 306 Lines: 7 I not too hot with computer design but: Er I've had an idea that you ...may... be able to use parrallel proccessing? Would this just be too hard to design? It might be quite good if you could buy a SAM with a Z80 type processor to keep compatilbilty and then just buy some more to increase speed. Diggory From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:36:46 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:29:49 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199610311029.KAA00561@banin.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: tVPyd3DNgybF5paHGANlnA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1694 Lines: 44 > > I really think that SAMSON should be GUI based, like Apple Macs are. > > > > As far as I understand Macs, the main GUI bits (pointer movement, window > > drawing, file management, menus, etc.) are held in the ROM, and the extra > > bits (menubar clock, backdrops, flashy bits) are loaded into the RAM from > > hard disk - thus allowing for upgrades to the GUI. > > > > I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? > > We need both... And we definitely need some sort of programmiung language > built in... and preferably an assembler too. > > We also need to specify an executable file type for code so that it can > allocate memory space, etc... > > Simon Aaaarrrgggghhh! I've had it! The problem with holding things in ROM is that they get outdated too quickly... just look at all the additions to SAM BASIC. Leave the BIOS to the ROMs, and load EVERYTHING else... BASIC, assemblers, whatever, into RAM. If you want a machine that can truly be 'future proofed' ( as I believe quite a lot of blurb goes ) what you are basically saying is that you want an incredibly fast local bus as the 'machine', and that anything else ( proccessor, graphics card etc. ) can be replaced. Once you have the bus structure standardised, each card holds its own ROM BIOS with its control information. The only other standard you need is the type of machine code the machine implements, and how it goes about autodetecting card info. ( Shades of plug'n' play, that hideous reconfigure-your-system-and-screw-up-your-applications, but without the hassle ). You can start cheap ( Z80B linked to the old ASIC with on board memory and ROMs ), and work your way up.... DMZ === From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:49:16 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031104556.00909388@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:45:56 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 850 Lines: 25 At 10:04 AM 10/31/96 +0100, you wrote: >Status: > > >Why F5? It's another one of those computer guys things - let it be something >more obvious or easy to implement. Why not SPACE or RETURN or something? > >I know F5 was only an example, but it's a typical computer person thing to >say - we're all guilty of it. I think the SAMSON should, like the SAM, be >a beginners computer AND an experts computer, but you've got to let people >become experts when they're ready for it. > >Al. I say we should use FLASH ROM with some CMOS ram. That way, people can configure the system to how they like. In the MultiROM, the idea was always that you could hold down F9 on boot to quickly get to the standard SAM BASIC boot system. TAB for CLI -- it's a nice big button. Or how about ENTER? (I have reservations with using SPACE for it though...) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 10:59:14 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:57:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam In-Reply-To: <961031051942_1315150036@emout03.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 334 Lines: 12 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Well said, the colour of a computer's skin should not affect the way we view > it. If anyone else attempts to enforce political correcctness on this less I'm liable to find them and thump 'em .. :p All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 11:00:43 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:58:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961031104556.00909388@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 233 Lines: 12 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Simon Cooke wrote: > (I have reservations with using SPACE for it though...) > Simon > I Agree that would be _too_ tacky!! All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 11:02:52 1996 Message-Id: <199610311100.MAA07450@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: SOS; CLI or GUI? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 96 12:00:19 MET In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961031094500.00909254@nessie.mcc.ac.uk>; from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 31, 96 9:45 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1035 Lines: 20 > > We need a CLI command of some sort, to allow for quick & easy file > manipulation, > using a UNIX style command shell... Simon's hit the nail on the head, this is a great way to do it. As I said before, if the BASIC interpreter is separated from the CLI, then you can run BASIC batch files from disk. THis is exactly what QDOS does, and very nicely too. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 11:14:48 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:39:45 +0100 Message-Id: <96103110394511@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 438 Lines: 12 Frode Tenneboe wrote: > Why should a computer be user friendly at first glance? Fine, make it unfriendly. People just won't buy it, that's all. Of course it should be user friendly. VCRs have Play, Record, Rewind, FFwd. Computers are infinitely more complex. And how can you compare a computer with an operation or a book? To put on your clothes you need to know how to put your arms through holes. How stupid do you want to get? Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 11:17:17 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:43:36 +0100 Message-Id: <96103110433590@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 74 Lines: 3 Yeah, colour shouldn't change the way we look at it, but it will do. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 11:34:14 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:19:05 GMT From: Diggory Gray (PWE) Message-Id: <199610311119.LAA26564@ugs2> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 156 Lines: 5 If you want to put things into ROM on start up thats cool - but it would be better to use EEPROM of FLASH wouldn't it? Then you can upgrade it... Diggory From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 11:38:34 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:31:41 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9610311131.AA07054@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1060 Lines: 22 > Fine, make it unfriendly. People just won't buy it, that's all. > Why sholdn't they? How user friendly was the ZX Spectrum? Nill! But it was very flexible and the treshold was low (for a computer) - that's why it was sold in millions, not because it was user-friendly. > Of course it should be user friendly. VCRs have Play, Record, Rewind, FFwd. > Computers are infinitely more complex. And how can you compare a computer > with an operation or a book? To put on your clothes you need to know how > to put your arms through holes. How stupid do you want to get? What I am saying is that if you make a device too user friendly, it won't be usable for practically anything (except for being user firendly). I did not compare a computer agains anything else - I drew analogies to other areas. You have to know SOMETHING to use a computer. If you know nothing people like me, I used to work in support, will run down your door asking bleeding stupid questions which they, by reading manuals and trying out stuff, could have figured out themselves! -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 11:54:12 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:52:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199610311119.LAA26564@ugs2> from "Diggory Gray" at Oct 31, 96 11:19:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 662 Lines: 19 On the Static RAM matter: I think that if we reserve 32K of any SRAM attached for use by applications, then this should count as a reasonable alternative to the DOFF/BOFF registers. OK, it's not quite so flexible, but it's a heck of a lot easier to implement. One thing concerns me though: programming. We can use the XMEML signal to program the SRAM, but this could cause a bit of a problem since the existing megabyte expansion does not have a disable facility. The alternative is to use output ports to program the SRAM, but this would be slower and not so good for programs which would want to change its code in the SRAM occasionally. Any ideas? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 11:57:17 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:54:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@fermat.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. In-Reply-To: <96103013034324@morse.ntu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 625 Lines: 16 On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 CC604050@ntu.ac.uk wrote: > >What colour do you want it to be? ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE HORRID BIEGE!!! (Sorry, I'm having an anti-PC and anti-anything-that's-biege day today) (And a day when I can't spell!) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 13:00:02 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:05:53 +0100 Message-Id: <96103111055354@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAMSON X-Vms-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 181 Lines: 6 Yeah, I guess David Zambonini has the right idea about holding things in the ROM (or not). The thing is, though, how fast will a mouse pointer routine be outdated, if at all? Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 13:00:02 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:13:54 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Samson CPU(s) In-Reply-To: <961031051942_1315150036@emout03.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2361 Lines: 51 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 30/10/96 17:41:35, you write: > >to be getting a bit hazy. *Specific Question:* Does the plan currently > >involve a souped-up or faster processor, eg Z380? > > Possibley - but not necessarily. > How about more than one processor? Well, assuming we're working with upgrades to plug into the back of your Sam, then the faster processor (probably a Z380) would be in addition to the Z80B we've got, and not a replacement. So, yes, we might be able to use both the processors simultaneously. That would indeed be very nice. However there is a difficulty; a faster processor will need faster memory, to which the internal Z80 probably won't have access without slowing down the faster processor. Communication between the two chips wouldn't be easy unless they could page in each other's memory, which would probably be difficult and slow. Parallel processing should probably be confined to unrelated tasks, for which the processors wouldn't need to talk to one another very often. Such an arrangement would probably mean that the processor was only used with new software, specifically written for it, and not to accelerate old programs. Basically, it needs to be produced cheaply enough for everybody to be able to buy it, because any new software probably wouldn't run on an unexpanded Sam at all. Perhaps the first piece of software somebody needs to write would be an assembler, to take account of the Z380's features and instructions. And then some demos. No, seriously; demos will actually be valuable things to code. Look at it this way: people have to a) learn how to use the processor properly, and b) be able to show off this machine to the man in the street. The GUI comes afterward. If the programmer is still accustomed only to the normal Sam, he won't be using the Z380's more powerful mode, and the GUI will be slow - or at least not as efficient as it could have been. Nor would the GUI particularly surprise potential customers, because everybody's seen them these days. Of course we need to have one eventually, but it could take a year to program and it has to be good - if that means waiting another couple of months while the programmer does something else, surely that is time well spent. Controversial? Me? Andrew PS. I promise I don't do it deliberately. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 13:00:03 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:34:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@fermat.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961031104556.00909388@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 820 Lines: 19 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Simon Cooke wrote: > I say we should use FLASH ROM with some CMOS ram. That way, people can > configure the system to how they like. CMOS ram requires worrying about batteries... Why not use a small serial EEPROM? They aren't expensive and small one hold about 2k... (Perhaps I should read all 100odd mailings and then reply in one go.. This is getting silly to reply with tiny amount of writing...) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 13:00:07 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:29:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@fermat.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS Bypassing In-Reply-To: <961031051945_1348598484@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 738 Lines: 16 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > With SRAM there is no need, want to get rid of a bit - rub it out and replace > it with something else. Just make sure people get hold of the original SRAM code...... (There are bound to be people who bugger up the code inside..) (Like me! - But at least I now keep back-ups of everything! :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 13:35:32 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031132804.0091a188@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:28:04 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 316 Lines: 10 At 12:34 PM 10/31/96 +0000, you wrote: >CMOS ram requires worrying about batteries... >Why not use a small serial EEPROM? They aren't expensive and small one hold >about 2k... Hmmm... possible. The only problem then is the serial code. The batteries, though, should also be used for a battery-backed clock. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 13:35:47 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031132803.008ce420@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:28:03 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS Bypassing Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 573 Lines: 18 At 12:29 PM 10/31/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> With SRAM there is no need, want to get rid of a bit - rub it out and replace >> it with something else. > >Just make sure people get hold of the original SRAM code...... >(There are bound to be people who bugger up the code inside..) >(Like me! - But at least I now keep back-ups of everything! :) An emergency Boot ROM could be handy... just in case things go 'orribly wrong. 16K should do the trick (8K's are expensive and hard to get hold of these days). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 13:36:07 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031132759.008c0700@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:27:59 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3768 Lines: 84 At 12:13 PM 10/31/96 +0000, you wrote: >Well, assuming we're working with upgrades to plug into the back of your >Sam, then the faster processor (probably a Z380) would be in addition to >the Z80B we've got, and not a replacement. So, yes, we might be able to >use both the processors simultaneously. That would indeed be very nice. That'd be difficult though... unless the fast Z380 was running in its own, completely separate memory space -- ie. it can't write to the screen for graphics. >However there is a difficulty; a faster processor will need faster memory, >to which the internal Z80 probably won't have access without slowing down >the faster processor. Communication between the two chips wouldn't be easy >unless they could page in each other's memory, which would probably be >difficult and slow. Parallel processing should probably be confined to >unrelated tasks, for which the processors wouldn't need to talk to one >another very often. With the Accelerator design, we found out that you need to create a state machine to arbitrate accesses to the SAM's ASIC (and also other hardware). HOWEVER... using two state machines, one for accessing the SAM's system, and another to let the internal Z80 access the external memory, it shouldn't be too hard. Not immensely, anyway. Problems inherent in letting the Accelerator access the SAM's system while the Z80 inside the SAM carries on running includes memory paging (you need to do: Halt internal Z80 page in page you want the accelerator to access. Access the memory. Page it all back. allow internal Z80 to continue ) It could be very messy. NOt to mention the fact that the external processor will have to slow down to normal SAM memory access speeds... It *is* possible, but we're talking a lot of logic chips here. Custom FPGA chip with about ... oooh... say 40 pins on it might be able to do the job. *MIGHT*. >Such an arrangement would probably mean that the processor was only used >with new software, specifically written for it, and not to accelerate old >programs. Basically, it needs to be produced cheaply enough for everybody >to be able to buy it, because any new software probably wouldn't run on an >unexpanded Sam at all. That's the problem. >Perhaps the first piece of software somebody needs to write would be an >assembler, to take account of the Z380's features and instructions. And >then some demos. No, seriously; demos will actually be valuable things to >code. Look at it this way: people have to a) learn how to use the >processor properly, and b) be able to show off this machine to the man in >the street. The GUI comes afterward. If the programmer is still >accustomed only to the normal Sam, he won't be using the Z380's more >powerful mode, and the GUI will be slow - or at least not as efficient as >it could have been. Nor would the GUI particularly surprise potential >customers, because everybody's seen them these days. Of course we need to >have one eventually, but it could take a year to program and it has to be >good - if that means waiting another couple of months while the programmer >does something else, surely that is time well spent. Yep... flat 32-bit memory addressing would be one of the first things that Z380 programmers should use. Also, most optimisation tricks will become a little more obscure (ie you can't rely on the timings that much, as everything's pipelined), but basic self-modifying code tricks should work, providing that you don't let it happen within about 8 instructions of the one you want it to affect. Extra instructions (MULT, DIV) should be easy for people to start using. >Controversial? Me? *grins* It's the accelerator design trouble all over again... don't worry though; it's not insurpassable. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 13:36:08 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031132801.00916d64@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:28:01 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 646 Lines: 20 At 11:05 AM 10/31/96 +0100, you wrote: >Status: > > >Yeah, I guess David Zambonini has the right idea about holding things in the >ROM (or not). The thing is, though, how fast will a mouse pointer routine >be outdated, if at all? Extra graphics modes could change everything... BTW: an idea has formed. How about using an ARM600 (610?) for graphics processing? Nice RISC chip, built in digital->analogue sound output, built in graphics generation (ala basic Archimedes). Worth considering. I think they're less than 30quid a shot, possibly less than 20 these days. If they're still fabricating them that is (and they probably are). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 14:08:46 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610311403.OAA03295@constantine.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAMSON ROM? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:03:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96103111055354@morse.ntu.ac.uk> from "SW>" at Oct 31, 96 11:05:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1078 Lines: 27 SC> I say we should use FLASH ROM with some CMOS ram. That way, people can SC> configure the system to how they like. JS>CMOS ram requires worrying about batteries... JS>Why not use a small serial EEPROM? They aren't expensive and small one hold JS>about 2k... We will need something (unless we go hard drive dependent). Won't we require a small amount of battery backed up memory for a real time clock anyway? Why don't we use a small CMOS or equivilant for both the clock and the setup preferences? What sort of info do we need on setup anyway? i, Remember the entry level required when turning the machine on; iii,A few desktop preferences such as what windows should be open on start up, or desktop colours etc.; ii, How about we get any the extra hardware to program the battery sustained memory when first installed. This may save new SIMPLE pieces of hardware from needing an 'I exsist please use me' ROM (or equivilant) (When I say simple I mean things such as comms stuff, not complex screen modes that require new software to use) Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 14:22:30 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:19:32 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961031132804.0091a188@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 31, 96 01:28:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 569 Lines: 22 I think we're getting carried away a bit! Some of the ideas that are being bandied about are for a third-generation sam, not a second-generation one. I think the best things to limit ourselves to are: * additional memory * SRAM bank for ROM replacement * battery-backed clock * grey-scale tv output (so digitised pictures can actually be viewed in proper greys. This is actually dead easy to do) * Disc controller replacement * Proper HDOS * LOTS OF SOFTWARE!!!!! and then maybe the fancier things like sound, fast processor, better memory paging etc... -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 14:37:43 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031143317.0090e220@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:33:17 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 539 Lines: 20 >* additional memory >* SRAM bank for ROM replacement >* battery-backed clock >* grey-scale tv output (so digitised pictures can actually > be viewed in proper greys. This is actually dead easy to do) In the scheme of things though, how important is the above? (grey-scale...) I'd drop that one personally. >* Disc controller replacement >* Proper HDOS >* LOTS OF SOFTWARE!!!!! > >and then maybe the fancier things like sound, fast processor, >better memory paging etc... Sound's important as we're running out of sound chips. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 14:45:02 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610311437.OAA03372@constantine.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Son of (Son of) Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:37:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Oct 31, 96 02:19:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1365 Lines: 34 > > I think we're getting carried away a bit! Some of the ideas > that are being bandied about are for a third-generation > sam, not a second-generation one. I think the best things > to limit ourselves to are: > > * additional memory > * SRAM bank for ROM replacement > * battery-backed clock > * grey-scale tv output (so digitised pictures can actually > be viewed in proper greys. This is actually dead easy to do) > * Disc controller replacement > * Proper HDOS > * LOTS OF SOFTWARE!!!!! > > and then maybe the fancier things like sound, fast processor, > better memory paging etc... > > -Andy > I have to disagree. I beleve that we need a faster machine with better quality graphics now. If we don't do this we will always be a long way behind the field. Don't you think that SAM itself was designed and released too late in the game? A few years earlier and it would have been much more popular than Amigas even. We need to cater for 2 markets: ourselfs and potential new SAM owners. Certainly I would more than love to see all of the things in the list, but to attract more people we have to appear to be competitive. Yes, many of us (such as me) are getting a bit excited in our suggestions, but it is neccesary at this stage -to get as many ideas on the table as possible. Many of them may be found impractical but others will not. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 14:51:49 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:49:44 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5EA79504274@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 430 Lines: 8 > Why F5? It's another one of those computer guys things - let it be something > more obvious or easy to implement. Why not SPACE or RETURN or something? How about ESCape? +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 15:19:30 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:15:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961031143317.0090e220@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 31, 96 02:33:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 837 Lines: 23 > >* grey-scale tv output (so digitised pictures can actually > > be viewed in proper greys. This is actually dead easy to do) > > In the scheme of things though, how important is the above? (grey-scale...) > I'd drop that one personally. > Well, I agree it's not greatly important, but since the SAM doesn't have 16 shades of any one colour, it would be nice. Anyway, it only takes one 20p LS chip and three resistors to do... -Andy ps: You're right, we do need a sound solution. pps: The problem with keeping things compatible with the existing SAM is that we're going to have hundreds of boards sticking out the back. How about making it compatible in the sense that existing SAM users can buy a PCB that will fit in the current SAM case, then they prise out the ASIC, RAMs, ROM and disc drives and plug them into the new PCB? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 15:42:15 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:23:42 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 665 Lines: 20 > Well, I agree it's not greatly important, but since > the SAM doesn't have 16 shades of any one colour, it would be nice. I'd love to see 16 'proper' greys. > How about making it compatible in the sense that existing > SAM users can buy a PCB that will fit in the current SAM case, > then they prise out the ASIC, RAMs, ROM and disc drives and plug > them into the new PCB? How about something that fits under the Sam body, an extra inch will make no difference to typing because of the anti-rsi keyboard that Sam came with anyway, and it would allow extra gizmos to be hidden away instead of taking up too muck desk space (a bit like Interface 1 :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 16:14:54 1996 From: "j.d.teare" Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:01:25 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Busy bumble bees... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 91 Lines: 4 135 mailings - blimey, I'd better get my glasses (even though I don't wear them!) johnna From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 16:14:55 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031160255.0090dad4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:02:55 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1263 Lines: 33 At 03:15 PM 10/31/96 +0000, you wrote: >> >* grey-scale tv output (so digitised pictures can actually >> > be viewed in proper greys. This is actually dead easy to do) >> >> In the scheme of things though, how important is the above? (grey-scale...) >> I'd drop that one personally. >> > >Well, I agree it's not greatly important, but since the SAM >doesn't have 16 shades of any one colour, it would be nice. >Anyway, it only takes one 20p LS chip and three resistors >to do... In your pricing, I think you're probably forgetting the port decoding needed to add that in... and also quite *how* it'd plug into the board. Unless you were modifying the main SAM PCB, it's not really easy to do. >-Andy > >ps: You're right, we do need a sound solution. >pps: The problem >with keeping things compatible with the existing SAM is that >we're going to have hundreds of boards sticking out the back. >How about making it compatible in the sense that existing >SAM users can buy a PCB that will fit in the current SAM >case, then they prise out the ASIC, RAMs, ROM and disc >drives and plug them into the new PCB? THe problem is that thee's not much space in that there box... And getting users to prise out components and fit them is dangerous at best... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 16:29:12 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:09:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Son Of Sam Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 617 Lines: 22 How about a son of sam mailing list ;) Or at least a special Son of Sam subject line SonOfSam colour scheme SonOfSam CLI vs GUI not that I'm complaing, it's interesting reading :) It's just I already have sam-users filtered off into a different folder, and it'd be nice to put son of sam stuff into a third ;) Oh yes, and why not make it *any* key to start up in CLI....? And ICEBuM was probably EGGBuM ;) :) Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 16:47:15 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031164118.008ce9c4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:41:18 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 290 Lines: 12 At 04:09 PM 10/31/96 +0000, you wrote: >Oh yes, and why not make it *any* key to start up in CLI....? But how long do you check for the key? And what if other key presses are wanted for other startup options? >And ICEBuM was probably EGGBuM ;) Depends how cold it was, I suppose... Si From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 16:58:46 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:52:49 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961031115247_1582885584@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1454 Lines: 35 In a message dated 31/10/96 10:35:44, you write: >Aaaarrrgggghhh! I've had it! The problem with holding things in ROM is that >they >get outdated too quickly... just look at all the additions to SAM BASIC. >Leave the BIOS to the ROMs, and load EVERYTHING else... BASIC, assemblers, >whatever, into RAM. Exactly. But if the ROM is very small (or in the case of the add-on cards to the existing SAM, the ROM is the original V3 which only gets used to set up the SRAM) and the SRAM is battery backed and write protectable) then we have the best of all worlds. > >If you want a machine that can truly be 'future proofed' ( as I believe quite >a lot of blurb goes ) what you are basically saying is that you want an >incredibly fast local bus as the 'machine', and that anything else ( >proccessor, >graphics card etc. ) can be replaced. Once you have the bus structure >standardised, each card holds its own ROM BIOS with its control information. >The only other standard you need is the type of machine code the machine >implements, and how it goes about autodetecting card info. ( Shades of >plug'n' >play, that hideous reconfigure-your-system-and-screw-up-your-applications, >but >without the hassle ). You can start cheap ( Z80B linked to the old ASIC with >on board memory and ROMs ), and work your way up.... For Son-of-son-of-SAM, you could well be right. But let's keep things a little more on the simple side for the moment. > >DMZ >=== Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 16:59:02 1996 X-Warning: Assuming character set ISO 8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:01:19 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199610311102_MC1-B88-35A7@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3997 Lines: 94 A lot of people have suggested GUI's to attract new buyers, and others CLI's because they want to retain speed. Then, there are those who have sugested a CLI on top of a GUI or vice versa, but I have an entirely ne= w suggestion. How about having a CLI and a GUI that run entirely independantly? The C= LI could reatin full SAM compatibility, while the GUI could take full advantage of any new hardware that finds it way into the SAMson. As the= re was no standard GUI on the SAM, although driver was good, you could be = sure that no-one would try to run old software in that mode. But, both could share the same file structure and file formats, so that the advanced us= er can navigate between the two with ease. Also, the GUI could have a basi= c emulator, similar to the 48k speccy ones printed in old Speccy mags, wh= ich would allow *most* old SAM software to be run from the GUI. I think that with the SAMson, we really should be trying to get a whole= new generation of SAM users, while retaining the old ones. Therefore, C sho= uld be the standard software language for the GUI, and (of course) basic wo= uld be there in the CLI. Also, presuing the SAM is to come with one or two = megs of RAM as a bare minimum, you could have an entirely new floppy control= ler, and use software to emulate the old one, and read the old SAM disks int= o an area of memory, and use whatever is left over to run that from. I do no= t know any SAM software that uses more than 512K, and 720+512 only equals 1232K, which would allow a few hundred for a TSR style controlling piec= e of software. After all, I'm sure a slow original read of the floppy disk (while the emulator is functioning) would be tolerated for the enhanced speed once you were efectively running from RAM disk. Also, I think web browsing is a must. Much as the original SAM would ha= ve done much better if it had caught the initial wave of 16bit home comput= er buyers, and not been released when the Atari & Amiga were already established, I think that a =A3400 or less SAMson which surfs the web, = and, unlike it's competitors, is quite a nice home computer with a good catalogue of software, and will, at a pinch, run that Spectrum software everyone still has lying around and remembers fondly from their youth. Retrogaming is very profitable right now too. In conclusion, I think too many of the people on this list are worrying about little extras they want as oposed to really useful add-ons, havin= g already writing off the SAMson as not having a chance in the mass-marke= ts. If it is released at the right time, it could catch on as a web surfer,= a useful business tool, and a machine for the occasional gamer. Just make sure it doesn't go over =A3400, and has a very good word processor, spreadsheet and web browser. The PCW used to sell very well, and a lot = of people still use them, so even if the SAMson only sells as a PCW for th= e late 90's, it will be doing better than the original SAM ever did (*sob= *).=20 Also, remember that to achieve any mass market nowadays, a simple GUI i= s a must at some level, and some good software. In the national press, and = on television, Intel have gone mad over how useful Pentiums are, because t= hey allow you to access the internet, play games and have a genuinely frien= dly computer. Microsoft have said that a GUI and a good word processor are = what every family wants. What I suggest is that West Coast Computers say tha= t a friendly computer, which good serious software, and internet access IS = what every family wants. And they want it at =A3400 (or below). By making it backwardly compatible, it means that WCC will already have some great software to show off at launch, they will already have a large library = of quality developers (if not very well known ones), and they will already have a product that the marketplace has been told it wants. One more thing, can we have a mouse and an external keyboard socket as standard with the SAMson please? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 16:59:02 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:52:42 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961031115241_1515776720@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS colour Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 11 In a message dated 31/10/96 10:21:30, you write: >Maybe you could produce SAMSON's in several differant colours and let people >choose? >Diggory The case would be easy to spray in any colour - the problem would be the drives (floppy or CD) which only seem to come in cream or black (and black is VERY rare on the CD). Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 16:59:45 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:52:51 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961031115249_1612646352@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2629 Lines: 63 In a message dated 31/10/96 12:49:06, you write: > > >On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 30/10/96 17:41:35, you write: >> >to be getting a bit hazy. *Specific Question:* Does the plan currently >> >involve a souped-up or faster processor, eg Z380? >> >> Possibley - but not necessarily. >> How about more than one processor? > >Well, assuming we're working with upgrades to plug into the back of your >Sam, then the faster processor (probably a Z380) would be in addition to >the Z80B we've got, and not a replacement. So, yes, we might be able to >use both the processors simultaneously. That would indeed be very nice. > >However there is a difficulty; a faster processor will need faster memory, >to which the internal Z80 probably won't have access without slowing down >the faster processor. Most SAMs have memory which works at between 60 and 100 us. Most PC's are only 80us. I know the limit with SAM's memory is about 12Mhz with normal access but there must be a way around this. >[cut] > >Such an arrangement would probably mean that the processor was only used >with new software, specifically written for it, and not to accelerate old >programs. True, but I don't think that would be a problem. >[cut] >Perhaps the first piece of software somebody needs to write would be an >assembler, to take account of the Z380's features and instructions. And >then some demos. No, seriously; demos will actually be valuable things to >code. Look at it this way: people have to a) learn how to use the >processor properly, and b) be able to show off this machine to the man in >the street. If done properly, you don't need to waste time on demos, the learning process can produce commercial software along the way. Look at what happened in the early days of the Spectrum - there was no demos then. If a programmer wanted to write a big program with several new ideas in it, he wrote 3 or 4 smaller games to test out his ideas. And made money our of the games along the road to his 'mega game'. >The GUI comes afterward. If the programmer is still >accustomed only to the normal Sam, he won't be using the Z380's more >powerful mode, and the GUI will be slow - or at least not as efficient as >it could have been. Nor would the GUI particularly surprise potential >customers, because everybody's seen them these days. Of course we need to >have one eventually, but it could take a year to program and it has to be >good - if that means waiting another couple of months while the programmer >does something else, surely that is time well spent. > >Controversial? Me? > > > >Andrew Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 17:07:04 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610311627.QAA03498@constantine.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SAMSON keyboard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:27:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961031132801.00916d64@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Oct 31, 96 01:28:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1705 Lines: 36 I have been thinking about the way Bob describes the final machine as a backplate that a current Sam can be plugged into as an inteligent keyboard. If we move to take this to its extreme it would certainly produce an impressive machine. Before we start we need to decide what things of the old machine we want to keep We need at least: Z80 (for parallel power as well as sentimental reasons!); the ASIC (still usefull for many functions); the TV modulator and most of the ports round the back; the keyboard; and a fist full of supporting hardware. some of the other stuff could be made redundent (e.g. sound chip etc.). When we build all of the new add-ons (eventually including a new main circuit board) we could assume that this is all that the old part contains, but I think that we should plan to add some of the new things inside the case of future 'intelegent keyboards' and stick them (bodge job) between the current SAM and the new part. If we do this it may be possible to connect some sort of labtop as a front end that can be dettached from the main body and used independently without the new features such as the resolutions sound or speed. We could even have a notepad front end that could read handwriting and send it onto the main bit as if it was typed! or uses the pen position as the mouse co-ordinated in our GUI! A computer that doubles as a portable! -strange! How about a ZX88 front end or a speccy one with a small LCD display! :) I know that this is all very unrealistic science fiction at the moment but if we design it so the front part contains all of the things needed to form a seperate machine we can keep our options open! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 17:08:13 1996 From: "j.d.teare" Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:03:34 GMT+0 Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 635 Lines: 15 Hello all, > When you buy a book you have to know how to read to get the full > (or any) benefits from the book. To drive a car you have to have > a drivers license. To operate on people you have to have a > medical exam. To operate a VCR you need the operator guide. Why > should a computer be userfirendly at first glance? Purely and simply because there are a lot of stupid lazy people in the world with lots of money to spend on flash computers - and once they buy them they want to be able to operate them. Let's not go back to the dark ages where computers were very unfriendly, especially when there's no need. :) Johnna From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 17:23:09 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:18:30 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Son of (Son of) Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 446 Lines: 11 > Don't you think that SAM itself was designed and released too late in the game? > A few years earlier and it would have been much more popular than Amigas even. Yes, it was the machines downfal in the end - around about 1987, before the 16Bit explosion and it would have sold a bundle. Such a shame. Still, we've got the chance to put the record straight with SAMSON. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 17:35:54 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199610311723.RAA03581@constantine.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS thred titles. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:23:08 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Paveley" at Oct 31, 96 04:09:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 589 Lines: 21 > How about a son of sam mailing list ;) > Or at least a special Son of Sam subject line > > SonOfSam colour scheme > SonOfSam CLI vs GUI > > not that I'm complaing, it's interesting reading :) It's just I already > have sam-users filtered off into a different folder, and it'd be nice to > put son of sam stuff into a third ;) [snip] > Tim ....@/ Good plan. I think we should start all SAMSON messages with "SOS ", that way we get lots of room for a fuller description of the thred after it. As it will be a big topic we must keep these thred titles up to date! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 17:36:49 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961031172946.00917fa4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:29:46 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2485 Lines: 69 At 11:01 AM 10/31/96 -0500, you wrote: >I think that with the SAMson, we really should be trying to get a whol= e new >generation of SAM users, while retaining the old ones. Therefore, C sh= ould >be the standard software language for the GUI, and (of course) basic w= ould >be there in the CLI. Also, presuing the SAM is to come with one or two= megs >of RAM as a bare minimum, you could have an entirely new floppy contro= ller, >and use software to emulate the old one, and read the old SAM disks in= to an >area of memory, and use whatever is left over to run that from. I do n= ot >know any SAM software that uses more than 512K, and 720+512 only equal= s >1232K, which would allow a few hundred for a TSR style controlling pie= ce of >software. After all, I'm sure a slow original read of the floppy disk >(while the emulator is functioning) would be tolerated for the enhance= d >speed once you were efectively running from RAM disk. Ah, but the problem is that it's not possible to have a software soluti= on to the floppy controller problem -- the DOS is easy to rewrite to use a ne= w controller. Getting exsiting software with Copy Protection et al, howev= er, is not. >Also, remember that to achieve any mass market nowadays, a simple GUI = is a >must at some level, and some good software. In the national press, and= on >television, Intel have gone mad over how useful Pentiums are, because = they >allow you to access the internet, play games and have a genuinely frie= ndly >computer. Microsoft have said that a GUI and a good word processor are= what >every family wants. What I suggest is that West Coast Computers say th= at a >friendly computer, which good serious software, and internet access IS= what >every family wants. And they want it at =A3400 (or below). By making i= t >backwardly compatible, it means that WCC will already have some great >software to show off at launch, they will already have a large library= of >quality developers (if not very well known ones), and they will alread= y >have a product that the marketplace has been told it wants. Ah, but the thing you're forgetting about launch-software is that the existing stuff just doesn't cut it. Why do you think that the SAM's suc= h a programmer's machine? >One more thing, can we have a mouse and an external keyboard socket as >standard with the SAMson please? Hear hear... except that the mouse interface thing will still be necess= ary unless we can get an ASIC blown. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 17:36:49 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:33:51 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961031123351_1281637725@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1052 Lines: 31 In a message dated 31/10/96 15:16:19, you write: >Well, I agree it's not greatly important, but since the SAM >doesn't have 16 shades of any one colour, it would be nice. >Anyway, it only takes one 20p LS chip and three resistors >to do... Details please Andy. > >-Andy > >ps: You're right, we do need a sound solution. >pps: The problem >with keeping things compatible with the existing SAM is that >we're going to have hundreds of boards sticking out the back. >How about making it compatible in the sense that existing >SAM users can buy a PCB that will fit in the current SAM >case, then they prise out the ASIC, RAMs, ROM and disc >drives and plug them into the new PCB? Yes, in the end, that could be done - but as I keep saying, we have to start off with a collection of interfaces. However, these will not take up as much room as they do at the moment. New fabrication techniques are being tested even as I write this which means each board only adds 20mm to the back of SAM and has its own through connector - no more two-ups... Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 17:37:11 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:33:44 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961031123343_1880268765@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 765 Lines: 26 In a message dated 31/10/96 14:20:40, you write: >I think we're getting carried away a bit! Some of the ideas >that are being bandied about are for a third-generation >sam, not a second-generation one. I think the best things >to limit ourselves to are: > >* additional memory >* SRAM bank for ROM replacement >* battery-backed clock >* grey-scale tv output (so digitised pictures can actually > be viewed in proper greys. This is actually dead easy to do) >* Disc controller replacement >* Proper HDOS >* LOTS OF SOFTWARE!!!!! > >and then maybe the fancier things like sound, fast processor, >better memory paging etc... > >-Andy I assure you good folks out there in SAM-land that Mr Gale and I are not the same person. But right-on Andy, got it in one. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 17:37:11 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:33:50 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961031123349_1181061597@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son of (Son of) Sam Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1641 Lines: 44 In a message dated 31/10/96 14:40:10, you write: >I have to disagree. I beleve that we need a faster machine with better >quality >graphics now. If we don't do this we will always be a long way behind the >field. I don't think we ARE a long way behind the field. We have a 'user-friendly' machine with a powerful and easy to use Basic. It has built on the good goundwork done by the ZX81 and Spectrum. We may be in a different field to the Pentium - but we are not behind it. > >Don't you think that SAM itself was designed and released too late in the >game? >A few years earlier and it would have been much more popular than Amigas >even. Agreed, but a few years earlier may have made the machine too expensive. We willl never know. > >We need to cater for 2 markets: ourselfs and potential new SAM owners. >Certainly >I would more than love to see all of the things in the list, but to attract >more people we have to appear to be competitive. > >Yes, many of us (such as me) are getting a bit excited in our suggestions, >but >it is neccesary at this stage -to get as many ideas on the table as possible. >Many of them may be found impractical but others will not. Agreed, but keep in mind that the initial stages need to be produced as interfaces to go on the back of the existing SAM. So, you can say for instance: "let's have a super graphics board" and go on to define something that exceeds the spec of SVGA. Fine, provided there is an intermediate step we can take towards that goal that is realistic for SAM. Don't stop dreaming, but look at the eventual goal and then define the steps to get there. > Numb. > Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 18:23:23 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:17:52 GMT Message-Id: <199610311817.SAA19224@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS - The Colour From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 491 Lines: 23 On Oct 30, 1996 10:19:38, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: >At 03:30 PM 10/29/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>what colour will it be? >>> >>>Al. >> >>What colour do you want it to be? > >Anything he likes, as long as it's black ;) > >Simon > If it is black it will fit in with so many modern homes that have lots of black-ash furniture. And dont you think it would be better to make it /any/ other colour than the boring office PC? -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 19:40:13 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:22:27 GMT Message-Id: <199610311822.SAA19334@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS - CLI is Basic From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 455 Lines: 14 You know, it took me over a hour to wade through the messages yesterday evening. Nice! Kepp it up, it is cheaper than buying a book to read in bed. Ok. One thing. Would I be wrong in saying the the CLI (command line interface) is what we already have in SAM Basic? As I understand the mail, there is no intention to do away with that, and unless someone can do a Win 3.1 for SAM I like the user interface as it is. -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 19:40:18 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:25:20 GMT Message-Id: <199610311825.SAA19481@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son of (Son of) Sam From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 496 Lines: 20 On Oct 31, 1996 17:18:30, 'Johnna Teare ' wrote: > >> Don't you think that SAM itself was designed and released too late in the >game? >> A few years earlier and it would have been much more popular than Amigas >even. The question I would raise is "does SAM or SAMSON have to be as popular as the Amigas?" I think that part of the charm of SAM is that not everone has one - some of us want to be different from the norm. > -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 19:40:38 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:27:03 GMT Message-Id: <199610311827.SAA19505@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 898 Lines: 25 On Oct 31, 1996 17:03:34, '"j.d.teare" ' wrote: >Hello all, > >> When you buy a book you have to know how to read to get the full >> (or any) benefits from the book. To drive a car you have to have >> a drivers license. To operate on people you have to have a >> medical exam. To operate a VCR you need the operator guide. Why >> should a computer be userfirendly at first glance? > >Purely and simply because there are a lot of stupid lazy people in >the world with lots of money to spend on flash computers - and once >they buy them they want to be able to operate them. Let's not go back >to the dark ages where computers were very unfriendly, especially >when there's no need. :) A good point, but lets no go down the route of the Macs and ban people from direct - low level - access to the hardware. > >Johnna -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 19:41:20 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:29:42 GMT Message-Id: <199610311829.SAA19587@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 406 Lines: 15 On Oct 31, 1996 15:15:03, 'ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale)' wrote: >Well, I agree it's not greatly important, but since the SAM >doesn't have 16 shades of any one colour, it would be nice. >Anyway, it only takes one 20p LS chip and three resistors >to do... > >-Andy -- Hows about spilling de techs on that one Andy. Would be interested in using it myself. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 19:41:21 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:33:35 GMT Message-Id: <199610311833.SAA19765@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS colour From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 505 Lines: 18 On Oct 31, 1996 11:52:42, 'BrenchleyR@aol.com' wrote: >The case would be easy to spray in any colour - the problem would be the >drives (floppy or CD) which only seem to come in cream or black (and black is >VERY rare on the CD). > >Bob. -- You mean we could have a CDeee. Oh boy, canna wait for that one. There would be a lot of clip-art and other discs that would be universal. Anyone done any work on converting PC graphic files to SAM (and the other way)? Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 20:45:39 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:42:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "j.d.teare" at Oct 31, 96 05:03:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 532 Lines: 15 > Purely and simply because there are a lot of stupid lazy people in > the world with lots of money to spend on flash computers - and once Yes, but stupid, lazy people tend to spend their moeny on flash IBM compats! I think the son-of-sam's market is really 1) existing SAM users 2) Speccy users who haven't yet bought a SAM 3) Anyone who reads electronics mags and would like to build things to shove in the back of a computer. The SAM is ideal for them. Perhaps this is a market which hasn't been explored enough yet? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 21:02:23 1996 Message-Id: <199610312052.UAA16091@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: A SICk powersupply, methinks... Date: 30 Oct 1996 20:59:01 References: <199610301815.SAA19030@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 855 Lines: 17 In a message of 30 Oct 96 Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com, Sup> And where was SAM Supp? Are they still going? Or did their web page Sup> put everyone off them? They are still going. Dave Tonks told me that he'll probably be at the next show. The journey and everything else costs quite a bit more than they make at the shows. So he's got to limit the amount of times he goes as a stall holder. He was considering going as a user, but again.. the journey get's old codgers like Dave down a bit. :))) >From my own point of view, I had a very good (or bad ) excuse (AKA feeble Tax accounts excuse) for not going which turned into something a lot less lame. A proper excuse which can't be talked about in public just yet. :/ Bye, _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 21:02:23 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Son Of Sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:49:57 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961031123351_1281637725@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Oct 31, 96 12:33:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 424 Lines: 15 > >doesn't have 16 shades of any one colour, it would be nice. > >Anyway, it only takes one 20p LS chip and three resistors > >to do... > > Details please Andy. > Ahhh - Simon was write when he said I'd forgotten to include the address decoding. However, there's a way I'm thinking of that would be quite simple - I'll try it and see. It would require scratching some PCB tracks though, which may be unacceptable.... -A From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 22:26:25 1996 Message-Id: <199610312226.WAA25521@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) Date: 31 Oct 1996 22:14:51 References: <1.5.4.32.19961031172946.00917fa4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1235 Lines: 21 * Cross-Reply from area 'ML-SAM.USERS' (ML-SAM.USERS) In a message of 31 Oct 96 Simon Cooke wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: >> controlling piece of software. After all, I'm sure a slow original read of >> the floppy disk (while the emulator is functioning) would be tolerated for >> the enhanced speed once you were efectively running from RAM disk. SC> Ah, but the problem is that it's not possible to have a software SC> solution to the floppy controller problem -- the DOS is easy to rewrite SC> to use a new controller. Getting exsiting software with Copy Protection SC> et al, however, is not. I think the idea of formatting a pseudo SAM disk in RAM (as MasterDOS does) and dropping the image of a disk in there is quite a good one. Okay, there are quite a few copy protected games, but to my mind the authors should unprotect them and implement a less archaic protection method. Disk based protection is useless in this day and age anyway. They either unprotect the disks, or leave them behind as relics for people with original SAMs. We need software that can be easily installed to hard drive anyway. Has anyone got games running from HDOS yet? _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 23:09:30 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:21:42 +0100 Message-Id: <96103117214259@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 262 Lines: 9 Yeah, point taken about knowing a bit about computers. All I'm saying is make it user friendly *but* make it possible to let users dig beneath that friendly surface - therefore having the best of both worlds. We don't want to scare people off now, do we? Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 23:13:31 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:25:16 +0100 Message-Id: <96103117251654@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 446 Lines: 11 Andrew's points about people not being surprised by a GUI: Well, yes people are used to them, but people will also expect one now. In this day and age you can't really sell a computer that doesn't have a GUI. It's expected of machines nowadays. Perhaps for a while we could have an Amstrad PcW-style GUI, whereby there is a pointer driven set of utilities (WP, Calc, Diary, etc) and basic file management until the full thing comes along. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 23:15:59 1996 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:28:16 +0100 Message-Id: <96103117281652@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (A Clarkson - BSC\(H\) COMP SYST/COMP STUD ) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no Subject: Killer App X-Vms-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 165 Lines: 7 It was always suggested that a new computer needs a 'Killer Application' - a piece of software that justifies buying the machine itself. What could we offer? Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Oct 31 23:48:53 1996 X-Warning: Assuming character set ISO 8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:47:26 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: Re : Killer apps. To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199610311847_MC1-B94-4142@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 706 Lines: 19 > It is always suggested that a new computer needs a 'killer applicatio= n'. . . .> What could ours be? As I am now becoming bored of suggesting, I think we should make our ki= ller app a web browser & office package (word processor, spreadsheet, etc.) = for =A3400 or under. You yourself wrote about PCW's, and so have I. They so= ld exceptionally well, and there is now a market hole where they were. If = we can have a front end that makes the SAMson as easy to use as a PCW, whi= le maintaining a good CLI for serious users, making it an actual home comp= uter aswell, then I cannot see how the SAMson could fail with the mass marke= t. Just as long as they get to hear about it this time . . . . . .