From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 07:38:01 1996 X-Warning: Assuming character set ISO 8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:39:33 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611010739.AA07844@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) X-Sun-Charset: ISO-8859-1 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 977 Lines: 28 [more deleted] > Also, remember that to achieve any mass market nowadays, a simple GUI= is a > must at some level, and some good software. In the national press, an= d on > television, Intel have gone mad over how useful Pentiums are, because= they > allow you to access the internet, play games and have a genuinely fri= endly > computer. Microsoft have said that a GUI and a good word processor ar= e what > every family wants. What I suggest is that West Coast Computers say t= hat a > friendly computer, which good serious software, and internet access I= S what > every family wants. And they want it at =A3400 (or below). By making = it > backwardly compatible, it means that WCC will already have some great > software to show off at launch, they will already have a large librar= y of > quality developers (if not very well known ones), and they will alrea= dy > have a product that the marketplace has been told it wants. I think this is a great idea! -Frode=20 From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 09:10:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101090722.0091ed2c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:07:22 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS - CLI is Basic Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 805 Lines: 18 At 06:22 PM 10/31/96 GMT, you wrote: >Ok. One thing. Would I be wrong in saying the the CLI (command line >interface) is what we already have in SAM Basic? It's a CLI of sorts. But what we need is a CLI that will let you quickly manipulate files without resorting to BASIC syntax. Something that can handle possibly the most useful feature in the world -- filename completion (just type part of the name, hit TAB, and the computer fills in the rest). Something that doesn't have the facility for line numbers, nor will get confused when you start mixing BASIC and CLI syntax. >As I understand the mail, there is no intention to do away with that, and >unless someone can do a Win 3.1 for SAM I like the user interface as it is. hmmm.... I'm slightly aiming towards a good GUI project myself. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 09:24:35 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101092051.0091dce8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:20:51 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 349 Lines: 10 At 06:27 PM 10/31/96 GMT, you wrote: >A good point, but lets no go down the route of the Macs and ban people from >direct - low level - access to the hardware. Except for disk access, possibly. We need a series of RECOMMENDED access and usage methods, and proper documentation that comes out with hardware podules as and when they arrive. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 09:24:35 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101092052.0091693c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:20:52 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS colour Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 666 Lines: 17 At 06:33 PM 10/31/96 GMT, you wrote: >You mean we could have a CDeee. Oh boy, canna wait for that one. >There would be a lot of clip-art and other discs that would be universal. You could have a CD now. Just use Nev's hard drive interface with an IDE CDROM. A DOS tbat can cope with it, on the other hand, is a little longer off.. >Anyone done any work on converting PC graphic files to SAM (and the other >way)? Yeah... I've got a SAM->BMP converter (handles everything but MODE 3, and only not MODE 3 because of a bug in the microsoft spec (they don't stick to it)), an IFF->SAM converter (partial programming version), and some other bits and bobs. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 09:24:35 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101092053.0090cf68@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:20:53 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2237 Lines: 52 Dear friends, programmers, and SAM users... Time to get this show on the road. I propose that we set up a series of work-packages, to centralise work on a number of SAM projects. Therefore anyone who wants to contribute to a given project can do so, and we can have specific mailing lists to handle what goes on, with regular reports to the main list to let people know what's going on. A number of projects that we really need to do include: 1. New DOS for the SAM (and Hard Drive), with ATAPI CD-ROM support, and provision for the use of different drivers at a later date (for, say, SCSI drives, or other such miscellania), and different disk structures. I've already done a lot of groundwork on how this should all work, so I'll type it up at some point if anyone wants a look. 2. SAM C compiler - ANSI C compatible. (Possibly Lex or Yacc should be converted first). SAM C++ compiler, and JAVA compiler to be worked on when SAM C is completed and debugged, and shown to work. 3. SAM GUI - possibly based around a Mac/Windows 95 design style. May or May Not be multitasking. Should have a well designed & programmed (and optimised) graphics kernel (like QuickDraw, or GDI), which can be vectored off to different devices - whether it be screen or printer. Should at some point have the provision for the use of TrueType fonts. 4. Programmer's Routine Database - a database of short, highly optimised routines for a variety of functions. 5. Wordprocessor, Spreadsheet, Database apps. In order of priority, I'd place these: 1&2,3,5 ... 4 is a project that can run in parallel with everything else. We need to clearly define who does which bits, and allocate work. Setting deadlines and milestones could help keep the project alive -- whether they're met or not. It helps to keep a sense of perspective and an indication of progress made. As for payment at the end of it, I propose that (4) is a Public Domain resource, (1) should be done for small remuneration, (2) for little if any remuneration, (3) for more than (1), and (5) for the most realistic amount it can be sold for. Depending on man-hours worked on the project, profits could be shareed that way. Alternatively, we make it all PD. Suggestions? Views? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 09:30:25 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101092423.0090c074@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:24:23 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 65 Lines: 6 Nearly forgot: Another workpackage section: Hardware :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 09:48:43 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Killer App To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:45:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96103117281652@morse.ntu.ac.uk> from "SW>" at Oct 31, 96 05:28:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 429 Lines: 16 > It was always suggested that a new computer needs a 'Killer Application' - > a piece of software that justifies buying the machine itself. > What could we offer? > I think that a good wordprocessor is essential, although that's not going to make the SAM stand out over any other computer. We do have MIDI ports though. How about making better use of them and writing a good, cheap, sequencer to rival the Atari ST? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 09:54:02 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:49:42 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199610311847_MC1-B94-4142@compuserve.com> from "Thomas Harte" at Oct 31, 96 06:47:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 454 Lines: 12 > 400 or under. You yourself wrote about PCW's, and so have I. They so= > ld > exceptionally well, and there is now a market hole where they were. The thing about the PCW is that it's still around. There is the PCW16 which sells, without a printer, for 299+vat, and that price includes a 2Meg drive, a mono monitor, a GUI, and a complete suite of software. Anyway, there's no way that Amstrad are going to let their market be stolen by West Coast! -A From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 09:55:27 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:56:29 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611010956.AA17602@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2305 Lines: 58 > Dear friends, programmers, and SAM users... Hi there. :) > > Time to get this show on the road. I propose that we set up a series of > work-packages, to centralise work on a number of SAM projects. Therefore > anyone who wants to contribute to a given project can do so, and we can have > specific mailing lists to handle what goes on, with regular reports to the > main list to let people know what's going on. I could probably ask for an additional mailing list if people on this list does not want the extra traffic here? > > A number of projects that we really need to do include: > > 1. New DOS for the SAM (and Hard Drive), with ATAPI CD-ROM support, and > provision for the use of different drivers at a later date (for, say, SCSI > drives, or other such miscellania), and different disk structures. I've > already done a lot of groundwork on how this should all work, so I'll type > it up at some point if anyone wants a look. Agreed. An integraded DOS which will not differ in syntax when different devices are added is a must! > > 2. SAM C compiler - ANSI C compatible. (Possibly Lex or Yacc should be > converted first). SAM C++ compiler, and JAVA compiler to be worked on when > SAM C is completed and debugged, and shown to work. Somewhere....lemmesee...HERE! I've got a ANSI c grammar. I've also found a retargetable compiler. In theory it's only to make (or find) a z80-> ansi c 'conversion table', compile a cross compiler and compile the code for z80 and move it onto the sam. However, the problem with SAM is the memory structure. It will need a hack, so a totally new compiler might be easier? However, the object code should be standarised. > > 3. SAM GUI - possibly based around a Mac/Windows 95 design style. May or May > Not be multitasking. Should have a well designed & programmed (and > optimised) graphics kernel (like QuickDraw, or GDI), which can be vectored > off to different devices - whether it be screen or printer. Should at some > point have the provision for the use of TrueType fonts. With the C compiler it's possible to compile....X :) > > 4. Programmer's Routine Database - a database of short, highly optimised > routines for a variety of functions. > > 5. Wordprocessor, Spreadsheet, Database apps. ..or for that matter, Linux. ;) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 10:05:21 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:01:57 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611010956.AA17602@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 1, 96 10:56:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1125 Lines: 35 > > 1. New DOS for the SAM (and Hard Drive), with ATAPI CD-ROM support, and > > provision for the use of different drivers at a later date (for, say, SCSI > > drives, or other such miscellania), and different disk structures. I've > > already done a lot of groundwork on how this should all work, so I'll type > > it up at some point if anyone wants a look. > > Agreed. An integraded DOS which will not differ in syntax when different > devices are added is a must! > Agreed here, too. The DOS should have the facility to allow other devices to be added in the future, such as network access, tape streamers etc. The only thing that concerns me is: where should the DOS be kept? If it was no more than 10K (somewhat unlikely) then we could all overwrite the Samdos2 on our discs, which would be nice. If it was bigger though, we couldn't do that. As a stepping stone, how about we have a version of Samdos2 modified for a non-VL1772 controller. When choosing the controller, I suggest we choose on the principle of what is likely to be available for a good while, not what is cheapest, or easiest to use! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 10:30:13 1996 Message-Id: <199611011024.LAA13781@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: SOS - CLI is Basic Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:14:33 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 696 Lines: 26 ---------- > Van: Simon Cooke > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: SOS - CLI is Basic > Datum: Friday, November 01, 1996 10:07 AM > > >As I understand the mail, there is no intention to do away with that, and > >unless someone can do a Win 3.1 for SAM I like the user interface as it is. > > hmmm.... I'm slightly aiming towards a good GUI project myself. > > Simon > Talk to Stefan. He was working on some kind of Win 3.x for the Sam. Has for the color for the SamSon. I own a black PC so what wrong with a color like that. Robert van der Veeke AKA RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Red leader here: watch out we are running out of diskspace real soon! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 10:30:14 1996 Message-Id: <199611011024.LAA13783@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: SOS colour Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:24:51 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 230 Lines: 9 > >Anyone done any work on converting PC graphic files to SAM (and the other > >way)? > Yep me too. Robert van der Veeke AKA RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Red leader here: watch out we are running out of diskspace real soon! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 10:42:04 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:38:05 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) In-Reply-To: <96103117251654@morse.ntu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1157 Lines: 25 On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, A Clarkson - BSC(H) COMP SYST/COMP STUD wrote: > Andrew's points about people not being surprised by a GUI: > > Well, yes people are used to them, but people will also expect one now. > In this day and age you can't really sell a computer that doesn't have > a GUI. It's expected of machines nowadays. Well, yes it is. And I did say that first time round. But what I also said was that it would take probably about a year to program properly, and perhaps a few months of coding something else first wouldn't go amiss, if that meant the GUI would be better. As for all these pleas for more good software - if it was possible to do ClarisWorks on the Sam, don't you think somebody already would have done? We need the additional or replacement fast processors before we can get anything else written. Unfortunately, that modification will at least need to be prototyped and distributed to the developers before software can be written for it. As I've already mentioned, I'm (slowly) working on WinDOS but this is a program for a pure Sam; to just port it over to SamSon wouldn't use that machine's full capabilities. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 10:58:28 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:59:51 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Hi! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <49EF2D2B29@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 280 Lines: 9 Hello, it's me.. James R Curry. I haven't died. I do still exist. Oh, a quick note to everyone - My Email address is no longer hc1jc@dmu.ac.uk. It's hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk. :) So, what have I missed in the several month's i've been away? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 11:30:03 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:26:18 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 1, 96 10:38:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 798 Lines: 17 > As for all these pleas for more good software - if it was possible to do > ClarisWorks on the Sam, don't you think somebody already would have done? > We need the additional or replacement fast processors before we can get > anything else written. Unfortunately, that modification will at least need > The problem is a lack of capital. Releasing the SAM bankrupted MGT, and a completely new machine would most probably bankrupt anyone who tried to release it. By sticking with a design on the existing SAM, we are playing safe - the ASICs are laying around in big piles and are cheap way of implementing a new SAM. 6MHz Z80s are less than two quid in quantity. A new CPU would require a heck of a lot of new glue logic, and that would take too long to design - also it would be expensive. -A From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 11:40:23 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611011118.LAA10529@titus.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:18:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101092053.0090cf68@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 1, 96 09:20:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1336 Lines: 33 > > Dear friends, programmers, and SAM users... > > Time to get this show on the road. I propose that we set up a series of > work-packages, to centralise work on a number of SAM projects. Therefore > anyone who wants to contribute to a given project can do so, and we can have > specific mailing lists to handle what goes on, with regular reports to the > main list to let people know what's going on. > All of the projects you gave priority to are software ones! How can anyone get into writing the GUI for example until we decide ehat processor we are going to be using! A better screen setup is absolutely NECESSARY before we can even think about a web viewer (I have seen my web pages in 16 colours!). > 3. SAM GUI - possibly based around a Mac/Windows 95 design style. May or May > Not be multitasking. Should have a well designed & programmed (and > optimised) graphics kernel (like QuickDraw, or GDI), which can be vectored > off to different devices - whether it be screen or printer. Should at some > point have the provision for the use of TrueType fonts. > The things all of the major GUIs have in common is some sort of menu bar. Win'95 has it at the bottom, the Macs have it at the top and Suns have a much nicer moveable one. Could we make the GUI so easy to use that we don't need one! > Simon > Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 11:48:40 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:51:09 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage X-Confirm-Reading-To: "James R Curry" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <4ACA9B19B4@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 839 Lines: 18 Sorry, I've come into this discussion mid-way.. >All of the projects you gave priority to are software ones! How can >anyone get into writing the GUI for example until we decide ehat >processor we are going to be using! A better screen setup is >absolutely NECESSARY before we can even think about a web viewer (I >have seen my web pages in 16 colours!). SURELY, it would be possible for a decent programmer to take the image once it had been loaded fully, create palette lines all the way down it, and choose the best 16 colours for each line, therefore making it appear a lot nicer than just a pure 16 colour image. Okay, it would probably be stupid to do this while the image is downloading (although maybe not..). But at least once it had loaded in full it could be displayed like this. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 11:53:37 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101114641.0090b758@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 11:46:41 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1823 Lines: 39 At 11:18 AM 11/1/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: >> Time to get this show on the road. I propose that we set up a series of >> work-packages, to centralise work on a number of SAM projects. Therefore >> anyone who wants to contribute to a given project can do so, and we can have >> specific mailing lists to handle what goes on, with regular reports to the >> main list to let people know what's going on. >> >All of the projects you gave priority to are software ones! How can anyone get >into writing the GUI for example until we decide ehat processor we are going to >be using! It'll be a Z80. I'm talking about stuff we can start on *NOW* on the basic SAM system, and which could form a basis for a move up to a Z380 at a later date (it's code compatible, so it'll work with a little tweaking if we move to a 32-bit address map). >A better screen setup is absolutely NECESSARY before we can even think >about a web viewer (I have seen my web pages in 16 colours!). This is why I didn't mention a web viewer at all. >> 3. SAM GUI - possibly based around a Mac/Windows 95 design style. May or May >> Not be multitasking. Should have a well designed & programmed (and >> optimised) graphics kernel (like QuickDraw, or GDI), which can be vectored >> off to different devices - whether it be screen or printer. Should at some >> point have the provision for the use of TrueType fonts. >> >The things all of the major GUIs have in common is some sort of menu bar. >Win'95 has it at the bottom, the Macs have it at the top and Suns have a >much nicer moveable one. Could we make the GUI so easy to use that we don't >need one! Difficult to do without a menu bar really. It all depends on the application. (Un)fortunately(?) most people are used to them now, so why change something that people are happy with? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 11:55:37 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101115322.00914684@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 11:53:22 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1110 Lines: 22 At 11:51 AM 11/1/96 GMT, you wrote: >SURELY, it would be possible for a decent programmer to take the >image once it had been loaded fully, create palette lines all the way >down it, and choose the best 16 colours for each line, therefore >making it appear a lot nicer than just a pure 16 colour image. > >Okay, it would probably be stupid to do this while the image is >downloading (although maybe not..). But at least once it had loaded >in full it could be displayed like this. You know, this is something I've been considering... the only problem I've had in implementing a simple static-screen version (for viewing full colour screens on the SAM) is that I've not got any experience in color histogram building and generation, palette quantizing, or anything like that. It'd have to be pretty clever too... every 16-24 pixels or so, you change *one* colour out of the 15, with say 3 changes in the borders... I've been working on timing details for it. More results when and if I have them... (the simple program I had which did some of it doesn't handle the hard part - the quantisation). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 12:23:22 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:20:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@oughtred.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: SOS: Bits 'n' bobs Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2095 Lines: 60 OK. I've finally read through all these emails and decided to write one big one. Grey-scale decoders: ------------------- This may be a silly solution, but what's wrong with turning the colour knob on the TV to grey? CLI and GUI levels: ------------------ How about this-- 1) Very small and fast CLI with a sub-set of BASIC in ROM. (Bootup could have option to go automatically into level two) Similar to command.com in DOS but MUCH MUCH better... 2) Load GUI into RAM from hard-drive OR load in CLI applications - SAM BASIC ver 2, games... GUI could be the base for ANSI C, GUI-BASIC, everything else... Workpackage: ----------- We could have a seperate mailing list, but I'm sure everyone would subscribe to it anyway just to see what's happening. I *WANT* to help.... But there is one small problem - Time and abilities. I'm currently on the final year of my degree and I'm not very experienced with machine code or hardware design. So, unless you guys hurry up with a decent C compiler, I'm basically useless to you.. :( (I could always suggest things the way I am now...) SAMson DOS: ---------- Could we have it so it has the ability to read MS-DOS disks built-in? I'm fed up with using KE-DISK.. (Has anyone written something like KE-DISK so you could save things on SAM disks at the PC end rather than the SAM?) SMIDIP (Sam MIDI Player): ------------------------ It's coming along nicely. I'm just writing the foundations now... Such as Variable Length Quantity decoder. Do you know how much fun it is to do 32-bit integer arithmatic on an 8-bit machine? At the moment, I'm reduced to throwing it all onto the FPC - Slow and inefficient, but it does the job! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 12:30:31 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611011205.MAA10565@titus.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - CLI is Basic To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:05:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101090722.0091ed2c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 1, 96 09:07:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1267 Lines: 25 > > >Ok. One thing. Would I be wrong in saying the the CLI (command line > >interface) is what we already have in SAM Basic? > > It's a CLI of sorts. But what we need is a CLI that will let you quickly > manipulate files without resorting to BASIC syntax. Something that can > handle possibly the most useful feature in the world -- filename completion > (just type part of the name, hit TAB, and the computer fills in the rest). > Something that doesn't have the facility for line numbers, nor will get > confused when you start mixing BASIC and CLI syntax. > We could re-write the DOS aspect of Sam Basic to make it more consistant! If we keep the line numbers and programming aspects of the language the CLI we would be left with will be so POWERFULL it would leave all other systems for dead! There have been so many times in MSdos that I have just wanted to write a simple program to do a series of things repetatively to a disk such as unzipping, SPCONVerting some speccy stuff from the hard drive and then to save it out to 'A' drive for every file in a directory. Everyone should be able to see how much simpler this would be if we could just write a short program in a SAMbasic based CLI! Given the choice I would certainly prefer the 4 levels I su From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 12:30:31 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:27:13 GMT Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <4970FB2BCB@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 829 Lines: 20 > Yes, but stupid, lazy people tend to spend their moeny on flash > IBM compats! I think the son-of-sam's market is really > > 1) existing SAM users > 2) Speccy users who haven't yet bought a SAM > 3) Anyone who reads electronics mags and would like to > build things to shove in the back of a computer. The SAM > is ideal for them. Perhaps this is a market which hasn't > been explored enough yet? > > -Andy Let's drop the Speccy comparisons right now. If you honestly think that someone is gonna buy a computer on the grounds it can play 15 year old games you are sadly mistaken. Yes, most of us did grow up with the Speccy (I still have mine) but for the sake of any sales figures at all, forget mentioning that the SAMson could play Speccy tapes. Most computers can emulate the Speccy nowadays anyway. Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 12:35:23 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:34:35 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SOS: Bits 'n' bobs Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <4B83885918@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1760 Lines: 44 > Grey-scale decoders: > ------------------- > This may be a silly solution, but what's wrong with turning the colour knob on > the TV to grey? Monitors don't have colour knobs. > CLI and GUI levels: > ------------------ > How about this-- > > 1) Very small and fast CLI with a sub-set of BASIC in ROM. (Bootup could have > option to go automatically into level two) > > Similar to command.com in DOS but MUCH MUCH better... > > 2) Load GUI into RAM from hard-drive > OR load in CLI applications - SAM BASIC ver 2, games... > > GUI could be the base for ANSI C, GUI-BASIC, everything else... Nice idea, it would take an age for it to be written though.. > I'm currently on the final year of my degree and I'm not very experienced > with machine code or hardware design. So, unless you guys hurry up with a > decent C compiler, I'm basically useless to you.. :( > It's coming along nicely. I'm just writing the foundations now... Such as > Variable Length Quantity decoder. Do you know how much fun it is to do 32-bit > integer arithmatic on an 8-bit machine? At the moment, I'm reduced to throwing > it all onto the FPC - Slow and inefficient, but it does the job! Just out of curiosity, what are you writing this in then? Coo.. another Sam user at the same university.. what are the odds? > ============================================================================= > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | > |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | > |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | > ============================================================================= -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 12:35:34 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101122945.0091aac0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 12:29:45 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS: Bits 'n' bobs Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1328 Lines: 35 >Workpackage: >----------- >We could have a seperate mailing list, but I'm sure everyone would subscribe >to it anyway just to see what's happening. Fair enough, but I thought it might be easier to handle that way... and it'd let people like Brian read what they want to without being overloaded (I know of at least 7 people who've unlinked from this mailing list because of its high bandwidth). >I *WANT* to help.... But there is one small problem - Time and abilities. >I'm currently on the final year of my degree and I'm not very experienced >with machine code or hardware design. So, unless you guys hurry up with a >decent C compiler, I'm basically useless to you.. :( Time's always a problem... For everyone on this list in fact (I'd assume so anyway). >(I could always suggest things the way I am now...) > > >SAMson DOS: >---------- >Could we have it so it has the ability to read MS-DOS disks built-in? >I'm fed up with using KE-DISK.. Yep, that's the plan. Also SAMDOS, MasterDOS, E-DOS (when I define the spec) and PRODOS CP/M disks. Even if it's read-only for the CPM ones... >(Has anyone written something like KE-DISK so you could save things on SAM >disks at the PC end rather than the SAM?) Geoff Winkless wrote part of something that did that, but it has a few bugs in it. See SAMTOMS on the FTP site. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 12:39:30 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611011211.MAA10605@titus.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS colour To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:11:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101092052.0091693c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 1, 96 09:20:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 406 Lines: 14 > >Anyone done any work on converting PC graphic files to SAM (and the other > >way)? > > Yeah... I've got a SAM->BMP converter (handles everything but MODE 3, and > only not MODE 3 because of a bug in the microsoft spec (they don't stick to > it)), an IFF->SAM converter (partial programming version), and some other > bits and bobs. > > Simon > Stick the IFF->SAM one on nvg! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 13:33:12 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:28:11 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <4970FB2BCB@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> from "Gavin Smith" at Nov 1, 96 12:27:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 797 Lines: 15 > Let's drop the Speccy comparisons right now. If you honestly think > that someone is gonna buy a computer on the grounds it can play 15 > year old games you are sadly mistaken. Yes, most of us did grow up > with the Speccy (I still have mine) but for the sake of any sales > figures at all, forget mentioning that the SAMson could play Speccy > tapes. Most computers can emulate the Speccy nowadays anyway. I can't agree with you there - OK, people aren't going to buy a SAMSon because it can run Spectrum programs, but I'm quite confident that the new SAMs being sold at the moment are going to people who read Format and have Spectrum and disciple/plus-d set-ups. There may not bee huge numbers of them out there, but I'd guess there may be 500-1000 units to be sold to these types... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 13:44:09 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:41:27 GMT Subject: Re: CLI or GUI? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <4AAD2C11C8@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1427 Lines: 28 > I can't agree with you there - OK, people aren't going to > buy a SAMSon because it can run Spectrum programs, but I'm > quite confident that the new SAMs being sold at the moment > are going to people who read Format and have Spectrum and > disciple/plus-d set-ups. I'm sorry but I fail to see how mentioning that the SAMson could run the same old software, that current Speccy owners can already run, could be beneficial. I've asked a few people lately from my university if they have heard of the Sam Coupe. About 10 replied that they had and everyone of them laughed and said "that's that Speccy rip-off computer isn't it?" I hate to be rude, but get real. As far as advertising SAMson goes, there should be NO mention of Spectrums. > There may not bee huge numbers > of them out there, but I'd guess there may be 500-1000 > units to be sold to these types... True, but on the other hand if they haven't bought a SAM by now then they are unlikely to buy an even more expensive SAM are they? Anyway, they can't possibly fail to know that the SAM can run Speccy software under emulation. Put it this way. If you advertise the SAMson with a selling point "it can run old Spectrum software!", you are practically throwing away the mass-market potential of the machine. If a massive 25% of those 500-1000 Format readers you mentioned, bought a SAMson that's about 200 SAMsons sold...Oh dear... Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 13:46:11 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:43:07 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1411 Lines: 28 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > The problem is a lack of capital. Releasing the SAM bankrupted > MGT, and a completely new machine would most probably bankrupt > anyone who tried to release it. By sticking with a design on the > existing SAM, we are playing safe - the ASICs are laying > around in big piles and are cheap way of implementing a new > SAM. 6MHz Z80s are less than two quid in quantity. You miss the point; a faster processor does NOT mean a whole new computer. Simon's accelerator is designed and built (or at least prototyped) so if the design was finalised and a few built up, we could start to write some software for it. To use a Z380 would be bast, but even the current version with a Z80C (?) would nevertheless be a start, especially if the extra memory expansions were built into the same module. Simon: How much would you estimate that this board could be sold for? When is the soonest that anything could be produced in a medium-length run for program developers? Read my lips you all: nobody can even begin to write the sort of excellent, ground-breaking software which has already been discussed, until - in some form or another - the processor has been upgraded. Yes, 2meg disk drives would be nice. Yes, improved graphics would be very nice. Yes, all this software would be very nice indeed. But for the moment, processing power is absolute top priority. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 13:51:17 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:49:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS: Seperate list... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101122945.0091aac0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 933 Lines: 21 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Simon Cooke wrote: > >We could have a seperate mailing list, but I'm sure everyone would subscribe > >to it anyway just to see what's happening. > Fair enough, but I thought it might be easier to handle that way... and it'd > let people like Brian read what they want to without being overloaded (I > know of at least 7 people who've unlinked from this mailing list because of > its high bandwidth). > Exactly. Would need to be set up for subscribe only for a few days first, so that no-one will miss out on emaisl by subscribing a few hours later than everyone else :) Ponders, and could have a digest version of it for people who want to keep up, but aren't that bothered about reading it as it arrives... Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 14:12:17 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:37:16 GMT From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611011337.NAA05239@caligula.bris.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS: Sensible FAT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: 4s+gCvLwwRg8XuDpQE3hyA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 896 Lines: 21 > >SAMson DOS: > >---------- > >Could we have it so it has the ability to read MS-DOS disks built-in? > >I'm fed up with using KE-DISK.. > > Yep, that's the plan. Also SAMDOS, MasterDOS, E-DOS (when I define the spec) > and PRODOS CP/M disks. Even if it's read-only for the CPM ones... > This is probably the wrong time to ask but why has no one ever written a dos which puts the FAT in the last sectors of a disk? If it was done like this the disk space used by the files on the disk would grow upwards from the front of the disk and the FAT would grow downwards from the 'top' of the disk so that where they meet somewhere in between would result in the greatest use of the disk. I am fed up of running out of FAT on samdisks! numb. I surpose it would make more sense to have the FAT grow from the begining and files from the end (for compatibility with current disks). Humm. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 14:19:58 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:17:03 GMT Subject: ARCHIV II Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <4B45413D9C@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 170 Lines: 5 Could some kind person email me ARCHIV II? I know its on the ftp site but it is in a pak file itself, and I have been unable to un-pak it. PLEASE! Thanks, Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 14:25:14 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101142037.0091a680@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 14:20:37 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 900 Lines: 22 At 01:37 PM 11/1/96 GMT, you wrote: >This is probably the wrong time to ask but why has no one ever written a dos >which puts the FAT in the last sectors of a disk? If it was done like this the >disk space used by the files on the disk would grow upwards from the front of >the disk and the FAT would grow downwards from the 'top' of the disk so that >where they meet somewhere in between would result in the greatest use of the >disk. >I am fed up of running out of FAT on samdisks! Because that would add a rather nasty amount of disk churning to not-very-full disks. Other than that, the SAM system used at present isn't very good anyway, and shouldn't have been done that way, but it works... I'm all for an Extfs2 (ala Linux) or HPFS system myself, but I'd need the docs to be able to come up with a feasible way of programming it in... (Thus the need for an /extensible/ DOS). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 14:25:15 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:20:47 GMT Subject: SAM C - Scanf problem - solution? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <4B553D000C@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 234 Lines: 6 You may remember my (and a few other people's) problem with Scanf. I have found if the first item in the Option menu is switched to "no" it compiles correctly. Don't know if it helps anyone else but it worked for me.. Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 14:30:21 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:28:42 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611011428.AA27406@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: ARCHIV II X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 264 Lines: 9 > > Could some kind person email me ARCHIV II? I know its on the ftp site > but it is in a pak file itself, and I have been unable to un-pak it. > PLEASE! I guess you need the file ./utils/disk/utils.td0 - a teledisc file with the necessary utilities. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 14:49:09 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:47:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@jacobi.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SMIDIP In-Reply-To: <4B83885918@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3871 Lines: 80 SMIDIP (Better name to be decided): The plan. --------------------------------------------- SMIDIP is the first program to be part of the SAM MIDI Suite (Again, better name to be decided). It isn't intended to go into competition with the SAM Sequencer since I have no intention of creating a sequencer (yet). I just want a few tools to accompany my MIDI keyboard. I know there are a thousand tools on the internet for the PC, but my keyboard is in the same room as my SAM.. :) SMIDIP will be able to play normal SMF (Standard MIDI File) files that are found on the internet with the .mid extension. The first release only play Type 0 SMF files just because it'll be easier to knock something up. (I have a PC utility to convert Type 1 to Type 0 which I might include) The SAM MIDI Suite will probably be freeware since I don't think there would be a great market for it.... (and I'm doing it more for myself than for anybody else so it won't exactly be commercial quality) If people are interested in this, I will write up a web page with more details. Also it will hold the current version of SMIDIP.. Files.. Utilities... (And without stupid things like thousands of java bits) On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, James R Curry wrote: > > It's coming along nicely. I'm just writing the foundations now... Such as > > Variable Length Quantity decoder. Do you know how much fun it is to do 32-bit > > integer arithmatic on an 8-bit machine? At the moment, I'm reduced to throwing > > it all onto the FPC - Slow and inefficient, but it does the job! > > Just out of curiosity, what are you writing this in then? A mixture of BASIC and machine code. I would rather do it in C, but a decent C compiler hasn't been made yet. It's being done in three parts:- 1) User front end: in BASIC. Nay probs... Just a simple menu. 2) SMF decoder: in machine code. This is the difficult bit. I need to decode the file before I play it because I don't think SAM will be fast enough to do it on-the-fly (SAM might be, but my coding won't!). I'll also need to convert the MIDI timings (ticks) to somthing more usable. I'm thinking about the 50 times a second TV frames. Since one standard resolution of SMTPE is 30 frames a second.... Since my machine coding isn't exactly wonderful, and since most values are 32 bit integers (SMF was designed for 16bit Macs, I believe), I need to use the floating point calculator in the ROM to do all the sums... Not the fasted way, I know. But speed isn't quite an issue doing it in the two step approach. 3) The player: in machine code. The interesting bit. Once the SMF has been decoded, all I need is a small routine to loop and send it all through the MIDI ports at the back of the SAM! :) Later version *might* have pretty graphics showing what note is being played, etc.. > Coo.. another Sam user at the same university.. what are the odds? Spooky! Before now, I had never known someone near me with a SAM. I actually sent off for my SAM before I had seen it... We should get together sometime... Do I have a potential beta-tester? PS. Sorry to those members on this list who have no interest in my SAM MIDI projects. I was going to send this email directly to James but a couple of other people on here seemed interested. when I first mentioned it. I know it's not in the same league as SAMson (My relatives have that surname!), but at least I'm contributing in the ways that I can! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 14:58:43 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:57:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 1, 96 01:43:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 122 Lines: 3 The best method I can see of implementing an accelerator is to have 512K of shadow ram. A read then comes directly from From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:01:46 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961101154819.002ee1b8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:48:19 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 12 At 14:57 01/11/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >The best method I can see of implementing an accelerator is >to have 512K of shadow ram. A read then comes directly from > Can you resend? I only got this much. THen again though, it seems exactly like the original SAM Accelerator design you're describing so far... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:02:45 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:47:42 +0100 Message-Id: <96110112474232@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS - Spectrum? X-Vms-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 267 Lines: 11 I think it would be a good idea to play down the Spectrum compatibility angle. While we know that the Speccy is a good machine, most people think 'Horace Goes Skiing' - full stop. You can always mention that there's an emulator included, but dont dwell on it. Al From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:14:39 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:10:37 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 232 Lines: 12 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, A.S. Collier wrote: > software for it. To use a Z380 would be bast, but even the current version That should, of course, have read "best", not bast. Sorry if that gave the wrong impression...... :-) Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:43:10 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:29:06 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101112906_1181214753@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1204 Lines: 30 In a message dated 31/10/96 23:48:59, you write: >> It is always suggested that a new computer needs a 'killer application'. >. . .> What could ours be? > >As I am now becoming bored of suggesting, I think we should make our killer >app a web browser Web work will need a modem. Adrian Parker was working on one for West Coast, but like so many other things he could not get it to work. Would we have to up the resolution of the SAM's screen in order to access the WWW? > & office package (word processor, spreadsheet, etc.) for >#400 or under. Good idea. a full package would use lots of the same routines and could be split between several programmers to get it done on time. >You yourself wrote about PCW's, and so have I. They sold >exceptionally well, and there is now a market hole where they were. If we >can have a front end that makes the SAMson as easy to use as a PCW, while >maintaining a good CLI for serious users, making it an actual home computer >aswell, then I cannot see how the SAMson could fail with the mass market. >Just as long as they get to hear about it this time . . . . . . > Anything, and everything, can fail. But we all hope what comes out of this will not. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:43:11 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:29:08 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101112907_1248251937@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 593 Lines: 20 In a message dated 31/10/96 23:13:15, you write: >Andrew's points about people not being surprised by a GUI: > >Well, yes people are used to them, but people will also expect one now. >In this day and age you can't really sell a computer that doesn't have >a GUI. It's expected of machines nowadays. > >Perhaps for a while we could have an Amstrad PcW-style GUI, whereby there >is a pointer driven set of utilities (WP, Calc, Diary, etc) and basic >file management until the full thing comes along. > >Al. > > > As long as noone tries to make it look and work like the dreaded Win95. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:43:22 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:29:02 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101112901_1880421921@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 711 Lines: 23 In a message dated 01/11/96 10:07:11, you write: [cut] >The only thing that concerns >me is: where should the DOS be kept? If it was no more >than 10K (somewhat unlikely) then we could all overwrite >the Samdos2 on our discs, which would be nice. If it was >bigger though, we couldn't do that. Dos would be along with the BIOS and Basic, in the 128K/512K of SRAM. So its there the instand you switch on. >As a stepping stone, >how about we have a version of Samdos2 modified for a >non-VL1772 controller. When choosing the controller, I >suggest we choose on the principle of what is likely >to be available for a good while, not what is cheapest, >or easiest to use! Good idea, but which chip? > >-Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:43:40 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:29:01 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101112900_1813313185@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2456 Lines: 49 In a message dated 01/11/96 11:27:44, you write: >The problem is a lack of capital. Releasing the SAM bankrupted >MGT, and a completely new machine would most probably bankrupt >anyone who tried to release it. By sticking with a design on the >existing SAM, we are playing safe - the ASICs are laying >around in big piles and are cheap way of implementing a new >SAM. 6MHz Z80s are less than two quid in quantity. A new >CPU would require a heck of a lot of new glue logic, and >that would take too long to design - also it would be >expensive. >-A While it was Lloyd's Bank that actualy bankrupted MGT, it is true to say that if the machine had been out earlier (even by a few months) then things may have been different. West Coast have not be prepared to spend vast sums of money promoting a machine that has already cost the lives of two companies. But, to give them their due, they have kept it alive. Given the finite number of certain key parts. SAA1099 and the 1772 could not be made unless orders in excess of 10,000 units were made. The base plate and the case top are limited because it would be far more expensive to make more than it would be to opt for a different case. Add to this a far from 100% reliable PSU and you can see why a new machine is so much in my mind. Even if the new machine contained no new features - at least it would be producable in quantities that could meet demand if that demand was generated by advertising. The big problem with many computer manufactures in the past was under production when people wanted the machines followed by over production when the market had said "we are not waiting" and moved on to something else. So. Lets say that we are stuck with the Z80 as the main processor in SAMSON. What could be done to speed things up? The main idea I have is to remove a lot of the overhead of graphics processing to a separate card which you would control by sending it commands, in much the same way that many terminals are controlled from thier host computer. This card may well turn into a computer in its own right, with processor, memory and of course output to higher quality monitors. Another thing is to look into some of the dedicated chips available that could lower the workload of the Z80 - keyboard chips spring to mind as a starter Oh yes, one more thing. Does anyone have any comments to make of the Kaleidoscope interface? Not a lot were sold but was it a good idea or not. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:43:40 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:29:04 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101112903_1981085217@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 458 Lines: 20 In a message dated 01/11/96 09:23:38, you write: [lots cut] >Depending on man-hours worked on the project, profits could be shareed that >way. Alternatively, we make it all PD. > >Suggestions? Views? > >Simon > > On the right track. But would like to add one small idea. DRIVERS..... New software system must use drivers to access screen, printer ect. And we need to get printer drivers written for a wide range of printers. Your comments please. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:43:41 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:29:03 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101112902_1947530785@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 803 Lines: 19 In a message dated 01/11/96 10:06:52, you write: >> 400 or under. You yourself wrote about PCW's, and so have I. They so= >> ld >> exceptionally well, and there is now a market hole where they were. > >The thing about the PCW is that it's still around. There is the >PCW16 which sells, without a printer, for 299+vat, and that price >includes a 2Meg drive, a mono monitor, a GUI, and a complete suite >of software. Anyway, there's no way that Amstrad are going to let their >market be stolen by West Coast! >-A The PCW16 is slow, made by Amstrad, and has a mono monitor. SAMSON should be faster, have colour, work with a standatd PC monitor or with the TV, have sound and lots more. And if we can match the price, and have some good SOHO software, then Amstrad won't be able to stop the sales. bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 16:44:03 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:29:06 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101112905_1114110241@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - CLI is Basic Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1377 Lines: 33 In a message dated 01/11/96 09:10:46, you write: >At 06:22 PM 10/31/96 GMT, you wrote: >>Ok. One thing. Would I be wrong in saying the the CLI (command line >>interface) is what we already have in SAM Basic? > >It's a CLI of sorts. But what we need is a CLI that will let you quickly >manipulate files without resorting to BASIC syntax. Something that can >handle possibly the most useful feature in the world -- filename completion >(just type part of the name, hit TAB, and the computer fills in the rest). Twaddle, p*&s off, go away, aaaaah!!! - the thing that drives me up the wall more than anything else is a computer that 'thinks' it knows what I want and then goes an cocks me up by doing the wrong thing. I don't see any difference between a direct Basic command and a CLI. There may be on systems that need the Basic to be compiled but there is not on SAM. >Something that doesn't have the facility for line numbers, nor will get >confused when you start mixing BASIC and CLI syntax. > Line numbers are not a bad thing. What you got against them. OK you CAN write Basic without them but it would slow things down a lot. >>As I understand the mail, there is no intention to do away with that, and >>unless someone can do a Win 3.1 for SAM I like the user interface as it is. > >hmmm.... I'm slightly aiming towards a good GUI project myself. > >Simon > >Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 17:03:49 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611011644.QAA05864@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Samson CPUs To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:44:20 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961031115249_1612646352@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Oct 31, 96 11:52:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2396 Lines: 57 >On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 30/10/96 17:41:35, you write: >> >to be getting a bit hazy. *Specific Question:* Does the plan currently >> >involve a souped-up or faster processor, eg Z380? >> >> Possibley - but not necessarily. >> How about more than one processor? > We could make the first commercialy availible true parrallel processing computer! >Well, assuming we're working with upgrades to plug into the back of your >Sam, then the faster processor (probably a Z380) would be in addition to >the Z80B we've got, and not a replacement. So, yes, we might be able to >use both the processors simultaneously. That would indeed be very nice. > >However there is a difficulty; a faster processor will need faster memory, >to which the internal Z80 probably won't have access without slowing down >the faster processor. Hang on a moment, If it is so hard to use the the current processor in combination with the new one why not indroduce more than one new processor? It has been stated that 6MHz Z80's cost less than 2 pounds. This would make the machine much harder to program but it would also allow for future expansion -just add on a coule of extra Z80's! The existing design for the accelerator may possibly be used in conjunction with this design to get more perfomance out of each chip. As I understand the current accelerator it acts as a 'memory mirror', getting the next few bytes from memory before they are needed and speeding up all other memory reads by the use of this slave chip. This could (if I understand it correctly) make a parrallel processing machine much more efficient as each Z80 will have a slave to get the required bytes from the memory -this will reduce any memory contention between the processors, especially if they want info from the same page at the same time or if they want different pages to be paged into the same place at the same time (assuming we don't use Z380's). The use of many processors would make a very nice multitasking GUI! There are many different trains of thought in the field of parrallel processing, we must consider them all before dropping the idea. But there again we could just put a dedicated circuit on a graphics board to handle fast scrolling, sprites and polygons! -wouldn't be anywhere near as big a selling point, although I would be MORE than happy :) Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 17:13:11 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:09:13 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101154819.002ee1b8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 1, 96 03:48:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1958 Lines: 45 > >The best method I can see of implementing an accelerator is > >to have 512K of shadow ram. A read then comes directly from > > Can you resend? I only got this much. THen again though, it seems exactly > like the original SAM Accelerator design you're describing so far... > That's as far as I got! I realised I was about to write a load of crap, went to quit and pressed 'send' instead of 'forget'! On a different matter, Bob has been talking of having a separate graphics adapter - similar in idea, I suppose, to the PC. Well, since everyone seems to be worried about the SAM's capabilities, how about making the SAM that adapter? The SAM would be a sort of i/o coprocessor, reading the keyboard, controlling the floppy and dealing with the display. Then we would have a separate CPU plug into the expansion bus which would have a processor, a ROM, lots of RAM and glue logic which implemented a nice memory structure. The new CPU would communicate with the SAM either through some communication ports, or by tri-stating the Z80, taking control of its signals, and looking at the SAM memory as a 64K window in the new CPU's address map. We could even have a sort of DMA for the disc - the new CPU tells the Z80 to load a chunk of data, and then get on with something else. The z80 loads the chunk of data into its 512k of RAM, and then interrupts the new CPU to tell it that its data is ready. The new CPU then tristates the Z80 and accesses the SAMs 512K of RAM through its 64K window. Not as fast as true DMA, I'll agree, but pretty good. The best thing about this whole idea is that it brings together what we've all been thinking of - a faster processor, lots of RAM, and better graphics management. The graphics can either be done by the z80 (ideal for textual applications) or directly by the new CPU (as would be necessary for games etc.). Also, SAM software would still run on the Z80 (the new CPU would be disabled). Any ideas? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 17:17:42 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:14:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961101112900_1813313185@emout02.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 1, 96 11:29:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 362 Lines: 8 > the case top are limited because it would be far more expensive to make more > than it would be to opt for a different case. Add to this a far from 100% > reliable PSU and you can see why a new machine is so much in my mind. I think the best option is a PC case. They seem quite cheap and come with a good-quality PSU. They also look highly professional! -A From imc Fri Nov 1 17:30:09 1996 Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:30:09 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101154819.002ee1b8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 1, 96 03:48:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 329 Lines: 10 On Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:48:19 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > >The best method I can see of implementing an accelerator is > >to have 512K of shadow ram. A read then comes directly from > > Can you resend? I only got this much. Thank goodness for that! I thought it was our full mail system causing messages to be truncated. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 17:32:14 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611011728.RAA08372@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS chapter1 conclusions To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:28:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961101112902_1947530785@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 1, 96 11:29:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2032 Lines: 41 I have to say that of the things suggested Bob's last X posts have made the most sense! I remember reading one of Sir Clives articals on his visions for the future, what is going on here in this list could be viewed as a materialisation of his 'metalab' (or whatever it was called) where lots of people from all different backgrounds co-operate to produce something special. Magic! We can build this device but the completed thing we are aiming for must be different and advanced enough to sell. We are NOT behind the field, we are advancing from a different direction. there should be about a thousand samsters like us who keep up to date and care about the machine -what are the chances of at least one of us winning a national lottery? Funny that it was said by someone that most people think of a SAM as a power-speccy, as most Amiga owners I know had to think long and hard to chose between the Amiga and Sam. Yes, the software can be got underway as soon as we plan the memory structure. The accelerator could theoreticaly be the 'main' circuit board of the new monster with the other stuff attached via this. We do not realy need the graphics card at the start of the software writing but we do need a promise that it will appear before the year of development is up. We will need our display to look nicer. the trend with PC's at the moment is to have polygon hardware on the graphics cards this should be held into consideration when chosing between a block shift device on the graphics card and a good all round processor such as another Z80. If we have a good,fast all round processor on the graphics card we do not realy need to worry about the speed of the main machine but to me this seems wastefull as many people may want to upgrade this card in a few more years time and we will have lost a good processor. I think we should put any new graphics processor (if we chose to have one) on the main accelerator board. There is so much good stuff lost by PC people when they up-grade their machines. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 17:44:35 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611011740.RAA08735@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:40:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Nov 1, 96 05:09:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2208 Lines: 44 > On a different matter, Bob has been talking of having a separate > graphics adapter - similar in idea, I suppose, to the PC. Well, > since everyone seems to be worried about the SAM's capabilities, > how about making the SAM that adapter? The SAM would be a sort > of i/o coprocessor, reading the keyboard, controlling the floppy > and dealing with the display. Then we would have a separate > CPU plug into the expansion bus which would have a processor, > a ROM, lots of RAM and glue logic which implemented a nice > memory structure. The new CPU would communicate with the SAM > either through some communication ports, or by tri-stating the > Z80, taking control of its signals, and looking at the SAM memory > as a 64K window in the new CPU's address map. > > We could even have a sort of DMA for the disc - the new CPU > tells the Z80 to load a chunk of data, and then get on with > something else. The z80 loads the chunk of data into its > 512k of RAM, and then interrupts the new CPU to tell it that > its data is ready. The new CPU then tristates the Z80 and > accesses the SAMs 512K of RAM through its 64K window. Not as > fast as true DMA, I'll agree, but pretty good. > > The best thing about this whole idea is that it brings together > what we've all been thinking of - a faster processor, lots > of RAM, and better graphics management. The graphics can either > be done by the z80 (ideal for textual applications) or directly > by the new CPU (as would be necessary for games etc.). Also, > SAM software would still run on the Z80 (the new CPU would > be disabled). > > Any ideas? > Yes! I mentioned something along thoes lines earlier, We could give the new 'keyboard' computers (when we run out of original SAMs) a bigger ROM (equivilent) and a slightly different structure so that they can operate as 'portable' computers in their own rite. You could take the 'intelegent keyboard' to work and use the built in subset of the SAMSON operating system to wordprocess, play solitare etc. then take it home, plug it into the rest of the system and use the full advanced facilities. -A nice bit of science fiction for the moment, but usefull to bare in mind. > -Andy Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 18:26:59 1996 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam Son Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 18:25:34 +0000 Message-Id: <2582.846872734@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Matt Williams Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1565 Lines: 38 I've just resubscribed after a few months off the mailing list and immediately got over 80 messages. I've tried to read most of them, so here's my opinion. Feel free to correct me on anything I've got wrong (more than likely) 1. CLI/GUI How about something like the Acorn RISC OS, where you have a simple gui in ROM - which could be flash eprom (therefore reprogrammable in place for upgrades) along with a CLI. 2. CPU Personally I think the best thing to do would be to move up to the Z380 straight away. The extra speed will be neccessary for applications such as web browsing. 3. Graphics Higher res graphics and more colours are definitely needed - people expect it nowadays. Would it be possible to use something like the S3 chip used for a lot of PC graphic accelerator cards which handles a lot of the functions itself - freeing the CPU. (Actually this would probably prove to expensive as a standard part - but it might be possible as an add on) I'm happy to help out with anything that needs doing - hardware or software- providing of course that I can fit it in around my degree course. (Could be a problem - I've been offering to write some stuff for XCoupe for about 6 months now and I'm afraid to say nothing's materialised yet - Sorry Allan!) ------------------------------------------------------------------ * |\ /| | \ / * Matt Williams, 19 Northbrook Rd* * | \/ | | \ /\ / * Bounds Green, London, N22 6YQ * * | | \_/ \/ \/ * Insanity is a virtue... * http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/students/M.Williams From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 18:38:18 1996 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: West Coast Computers Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 18:35:57 +0000 Message-Id: <1715.846873357@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Matt Williams Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 425 Lines: 9 I'm currently SAMless - does anyone know if I can WCC are still selling them, or if not does anyone know anywhere where I can get one. ------------------------------------------------------------------ * |\ /| | \ / * Matt Williams, 19 Northbrook Rd* * | \/ | | \ /\ / * Bounds Green, London, N22 6YQ * * | | \_/ \/ \/ * Insanity is a virtue... * http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/students/M.Williams From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 18:58:14 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:57:01 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage In-Reply-To: <961101135301_1147681441@emout01.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 674 Lines: 18 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >>The things all of the major GUIs have in common is some sort of menu bar. > >>Win'95 has it at the bottom, the Macs have it at the top and Suns have a > >>much nicer moveable one. Could we make the GUI so easy to use that we don't > >>need one! > If someone mentions Win95 again I'll scream. > A GUI should be that, a GRAPHICAL User Interface. Not menu bars and long > lists of programs which you have to READ to work out which you want. Clear, > simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) with as little writing > as possible - that is a GUI. How can you actually *DO* anything without a menu bar?! Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 19:03:11 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:53:01 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101135301_1147681441@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 797 Lines: 20 In a message dated 01/11/96 14:50:37, you write: >>The things all of the major GUIs have in common is some sort of menu bar. >>Win'95 has it at the bottom, the Macs have it at the top and Suns have a >>much nicer moveable one. Could we make the GUI so easy to use that we don't >>need one! > >Difficult to do without a menu bar really. It all depends on the >application. (Un)fortunately(?) most people are used to them now, so why >change something that people are happy with? > >Simon If someone mentions Win95 again I'll scream. A GUI should be that, a GRAPHICAL User Interface. Not menu bars and long lists of programs which you have to READ to work out which you want. Clear, simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) with as little writing as possible - that is a GUI. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 19:03:20 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:52:57 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961101135256_1913994272@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Seperate list... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1111 Lines: 31 In a message dated 01/11/96 13:51:27, you write: >On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Simon Cooke wrote: > >> >We could have a seperate mailing list, but I'm sure everyone would >subscribe >> >to it anyway just to see what's happening. >> Fair enough, but I thought it might be easier to handle that way... and >it'd >> let people like Brian read what they want to without being overloaded (I >> know of at least 7 people who've unlinked from this mailing list because of >> its high bandwidth). >> >Exactly. Would need to be set up for subscribe only for a few days first, >so that no-one will miss out on emaisl by subscribing a few hours later >than everyone else :) > >Ponders, and could have a digest version of it for people who want to >keep up, but aren't that bothered about reading it as it arrives... > >Tim ....@/ Would it be better to appoint some mug (sorry some nice helpful person) to take in each days mailings (by direct email, not via the list), consolidate them into one and the mail it out to a list of people who want it. This could avoid lots of duplications. And no, I can't do it myself. Bob. From imc Fri Nov 1 20:00:08 1996 Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:00:08 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 1, 96 06:57:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2229 Lines: 42 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:57:01 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > > If someone mentions Win95 again I'll scream. > > A GUI should be that, a GRAPHICAL User Interface. Not menu bars and long > > lists of programs which you have to READ to work out which you want. Clear, > > simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) with as little writing > > as possible - that is a GUI. > How can you actually *DO* anything without a menu bar?! If I might interject, I've been using windowing systems since 1987 and have hardly ever had a menu bar on my screen. (On certain summer jobs I did, but never at this university). I see no reason why we shouldn't base this system on X instead of on some Microsoft product, but then of course I am biased and I've never actually used most Microsoft products. :-) Secondly, I see no reason why the GUI shouldn't have words in it. Regardless of what the G stands for, the idea is to make things easy to use, not to replace slavishly all words by graphics at any cost. In fact there are many more words than pictures on my terminal at this moment. It's possible to set this thing up so that when I minimise a tty window it turns into a nice picture with a title below it. I find the picture useless and it is a much more efficient use of screen real estate if I just have the title up there. The same if I am editing a file. Only the name of the file is required. I see nothing wrong with menus. Only you don't have to have a menu *bar*: you can set the system up so that pressing a mouse button gives you a menu. Which menu you get depends on where the mouse is: if it's not on anything then you get a "root" menu (typically a list of window operations or a list of currently running windows to select or a list of new windows to create - in fact in my setup you can get each of these with a different button). If you do it on an icon then you get a list of icon operations. The perceived difficulty in operating a CLI isn't with words as opposed to graphics; it's with syntax. I'm sure a menu with "Delete this file" would solve the user's problems with knowing what syntax to type in order to remove this file just as much as moving it to a little picture of a trashcan. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 1 22:58:00 1996 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:57:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) In-Reply-To: <961101112900_1813313185@emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 476 Lines: 11 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Oh yes, one more thing. Does anyone have any comments to make of the > Kaleidoscope interface? Not a lot were sold but was it a good idea or not. The Kaleidoscope bit wasn't a lot of use, but I found the rest of it useful as a general purpose interface for connecting other bits & pieces to my Sam, things I would otherwise have had to build dedicated interfaces for. Hence useful as a building block, nothing more. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 00:32:10 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 07:56:43 +0000 Subject: Re: Clock Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <846894461.24881.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 751 Lines: 15 > From: "Gavin Smith" > What ever happened to the clock that WC were going to bring out? We > really do need one now that the Sambus is no longer made. Well, I took out the clock circuitry from the sambus and designed a little board for a stand alone clock module, perfect for the 2-up or sumfin' like that, but it's just a case of producing the PCB's thats the problem. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 00:52:32 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:32:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Hello. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <846894758.25940.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 500 Lines: 13 > >Oh - and the most important thing about SAMSON is, of course.... > > > >what colour will it be? > > What colour do you want it to be? Erm, Orange..... -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 01:01:11 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:00:05 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611020100.BAA04262@valyant.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: esbRvDrY4PQxRZxJ9sXdVA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 843 Lines: 20 > You know, this is something I've been considering... the only problem I've > had in implementing a simple static-screen version (for viewing full colour > screens on the SAM) is that I've not got any experience in color histogram > building and generation, palette quantizing, or anything like that. It'd > have to be pretty clever too... every 16-24 pixels or so, you change *one* > colour out of the 15, with say 3 changes in the borders... I've been working > on timing details for it. More results when and if I have them... (the > simple program I had which did some of it doesn't handle the hard part - the > quantisation). > > Simon > Funny, that. I was considering exactly the same thing, for any future raytraced animations I may be doing... the top & bottom border time would be used to update the image, of course... DMZ === From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 01:16:11 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:14:34 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611020114.BAA04274@valyant.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: The 8 bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: YwePgpLHVrkJwXP62JQDVQ== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 432 Lines: 13 So.... 8 bit with 32 bit a possibility, not 32 bit, eh? Erk. I can see it now. Just look at the horrific problems people have trying to access 32 bit functions on the PC, a hang over from the 'good old days' of the 8086. What **fun** I will have marketing DOS extenders for the SAMSON.... Oh, and I can see people **rushing** out to buy a **new** 8 bit machine DMZ --- [ It's 1am.... I'm all alone, and I'm feeling nasty.. :) ] From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 01:18:59 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:17:11 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611020117.BAA04278@valyant.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: 0hix7oYAuXbG5T7Y4/VrBw== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 493 Lines: 17 > > What colour do you want it to be? > > Erm, Orange..... > -- > Dean Liversidge .__ . , > Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ > The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) > Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> > Sysop: Dave Whitmore Orange? ORANGE? Hmmm..... **orange** What **sort** of orange? :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 03:09:57 1996 Message-Id: <327AC83A.4B2AB7FC@digiserve.com> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 05:04:10 +0100 From: "A.D.R." Organization: EuroCom Network Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SMIDIP References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1042 Lines: 23 Justin Skists wrote: > > SMIDIP (Better name to be decided): The plan. > --------------------------------------------- [...] > PS. Sorry to those members on this list who have no interest in my SAM MIDI > projects. I was going to send this email directly to James but a couple of > other people on here seemed interested. when I first mentioned it. I know > it's not in the same league as SAMson (My relatives have that surname!), > but at least I'm contributing in the ways that I can! Please go on with it, I'm very interested in it, and I'm looking forward to use it when it's ready. Don't worry about not everyone being interested, that's unavoidable and as long as it's SAM related (SMIDIP sure is) you shouldn't care. :-) _ (_ i a o, Arne %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%( Arne Di Russo )%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% | Roma, Italy (EU) - ar@RMnet.it - http://digiserve.com/ar/ | %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% \...................> powered by LINUX 2.0 <......................./ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 13:33:14 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 08:32:21 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961102083220_1713579322@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: West Coast Computers Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 691 Lines: 25 In a message dated 01/11/96 18:37:31, you write: >I'm currently SAMless - does anyone know if I can WCC are still selling them, >or if not does anyone know anywhere where I can get one. > > Yep. Three options. 1) SAM Elite. Single(new style) drive, built in printer port, scart lead. Full 12 month warranty + extra years warranty on main board. #199.95 including p&p. 2) Recon SAM Coupe. New keyboard, new manuals, new-style drive. 1 year warranty. #139.95 incl. 3) Recon SAM Coupe. With slim-line drive, new keyboard, new manuals. 90 day warranty. #119.95 incl. Option 3 only comes up once in a while (but there are 2 in stock at the moment). Option 2 no probs. Option 1 no probs. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 13:46:54 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 13:42:52 GMT Message-Id: <199611021342.NAA19023@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 240 Lines: 13 On Nov 02, 1996 00:32:10, 'Dean Liversidge ' wrote: >> What colour do you want it to be? > >Erm, Orange..... How about taking the feminine design route and making it pink. -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 13:48:27 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 13:44:13 GMT Message-Id: <199611021344.NAA19061@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SMIDIP From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1250 Lines: 38 On Nov 02, 1996 05:04:10, '"A.D.R." ' wrote: >Justin Skists wrote: >> >> SMIDIP (Better name to be decided): The plan. >> --------------------------------------------- >[...] >> PS. Sorry to those members on this list who have no interest in my SAM MIDI >> projects. I was going to send this email directly to James but a couple >of >> other people on here seemed interested. when I first mentioned it. I >know >> it's not in the same league as SAMson (My relatives have that surname!), >> but at least I'm contributing in the ways that I can! > >Please go on with it, I'm very interested in it, and I'm >looking forward to use it when it's ready. >Don't worry about not everyone being interested, that's unavoidable >and as long as it's SAM related (SMIDIP sure is) you shouldn't >care. :-) >_ >(_ i a o, Arne Not into music, not into noise, but go for it I say. > >%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%( Arne Di Russo )%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% >| Roma, Italy (EU) - ar@RMnet.it - http://digiserve.com/ar/ | >%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% >\...................> powered by LINUX 2.0 <......................./ -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 15:15:29 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:13:31 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: Sam-less To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199611021013_MC1-B8F-BB62@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 214 Lines: 5 > 1) SAM Elite. Single (new style) disk . . . . Have I missed something? What is a new style drive? How does it differ from the one I got with my SAM Coupe in 1991? And what's that about keyboards? Sorry? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 15:29:33 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS chapter1 conclusions To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 15:28:22 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611011728.RAA08372@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 1, 96 05:28:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1641 Lines: 43 As I see it, there are two options for the new SAM. i) the machine is basically a SAM with most conceivable bolt-ons. Eg plenty or RAM, the SRAM ROM-replacement, a new sound chip, and a new disc drive. Then the machine would rely on a GUI which would incorporate the possibility of other new features such as a new graphics board, HDD etc. ii) the SAM is used as an i/o & graphics processor and a new CPU is plugged into the expansion port - as I suggested in a previous post. This new CPU would have probably 4Meg RAM as standard, and probably be 32-bit. The advantage and disadvantages? i) :) logical upgrade from SAM :) gradual expansion route for existing SAM users :( slow CPU - extra memory is of minimal use when CPU is so slow :( poor memory paging ii) :) brand-new CPU which is fast and competitive :) could choose Z380 so that programmers find it easy to make the move :( new design will be quite remote from existing design :) having two CPUs will mean that graphics will be faster than anything possible with i) above I think you can see which one I'm in favour of! Please add your comments to the list. There's something I would say, and that is that 4Meg attached to the existing SAM design would be far less useful than 4Meg attached to a new processor. It would be easier to use a new processor because it would be possible to have a contiguous block of memory without worrying so much about how to break-out of the z80's 64K restriction. And it would actually be easier to design the memory circuitry for a CPU with a large address bus than it would for the current SAM. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 15:35:33 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Sam-less To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 15:34:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611021013_MC1-B8F-BB62@compuserve.com> from "Thomas Harte" at Nov 2, 96 10:13:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 850 Lines: 20 A 'new-style drive' is a standard PC drive - i.e. it's not one of the slimline ones that MGT used. The new drives aren't slot in either - they have a small card which fits into the drive connector and then a ribbon cable to fit to the drive. You install them by opening the SAM case. I would guess that it's a better option anyway since standard PC drives are widely available should you need to replace it. As for the keyboard, 'new' just means that its been replaced, I expect, since they do have a tendency to wear out after a lot of bashing. The only difference might be that it'd be grey rather than beige. I was just wondering where these SAMs come from to be reconditioned - are they ones returned under warranty, picked up secondhand, or is it that load that was sent halfway to Saudi Arabia (or wherever) and then got sent back? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 16:17:53 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 16:14:00 GMT Message-Id: <199611021614.QAA24051@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS - Graphic extras From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1229 Lines: 30 Have read lots in the last few days about the need for faster graphics and to relieve the strain on the main CPU. Would it be possible to set up a graphics co-processor, with its own memory and video output, and then drive it with high-level commands? Something line the terminal control language used on some of the older systems at uni. All you need to do is pass a short(ish) string of bytes through a FIFO buffer to the slave processor which would then carry out the command. For example:- SCROLL (screen number, direction, number of pixels) DEF SPRITE (sprite number, size, data bytes) MOVE SPRITE (sprite number, direction, number of pixels (other controls)) You could have each command start with a single byte (the token for the command if you like) followed by a byte which gives the length of the string that is to follow. The graphics processor could then work on its screen, taking instructions as required, and maybe interrupting the main SAM when selected events occur. There is a lot of ideas in SCADS and Gamesmaster that could be ported and it would make many graphic commands easy on the main processor because all it has to do is build the strin and send it. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 16:22:09 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 16:17:52 GMT Message-Id: <199611021617.QAA24249@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam-less From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 502 Lines: 18 On Nov 02, 1996 10:13:31, 'Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com>' wrote: >> 1) SAM Elite. Single (new style) disk . . . . > >Have I missed something? What is a new style drive? How does it >differ from the one I got with my SAM Coupe in 1991? And what's that about >keyboards? Sorry? -- Where have you been for the last two years? The new drives are the standard PC type. Much more reliable than the slimline and easier to replace if they ever go wrong. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 16:25:24 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:24:33 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961102112432_1281913927@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Clock Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 537 Lines: 16 In a message dated 02/11/96 00:31:39, you write: >> From: "Gavin Smith" >> What ever happened to the clock that WC were going to bring out? We >> really do need one now that the Sambus is no longer made. > >Well, I took out the clock circuitry from the sambus and designed a >little board for a stand alone clock module, perfect for the 2-up or >sumfin' like that, but it's just a case of producing the PCB's thats >the problem. > > See this this months FORMAT fro the latest on the SAM_CLOCK. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 17:17:14 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:14:10 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961102121410_1482506826@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1642 Lines: 43 In a message dated 02/11/96 16:18:14, you write: >Have read lots in the last few days about the need for faster graphics and >to relieve the strain on the main CPU. Would it be possible to set up a >graphics co-processor, with its own memory and video output, and then drive >it with high-level commands? Something line the terminal control language >used on some of the older systems at uni. > >All you need to do is pass a short(ish) string of bytes through a FIFO >buffer to the slave processor which would then carry out the command. For >example:- > >SCROLL (screen number, direction, number of pixels) >DEF SPRITE (sprite number, size, data bytes) >MOVE SPRITE (sprite number, direction, number of pixels (other controls)) > >You could have each command start with a single byte (the token for the >command if you like) followed by a byte which gives the length of the >string that is to follow. > >The graphics processor could then work on its screen, taking instructions >as required, and maybe interrupting the main SAM when selected events >occur. > >There is a lot of ideas in SCADS and Gamesmaster that could be ported and >it would make many graphic commands easy on the main processor because all >it has to do is build the strin and send it. > > > >Samsboss >The One And Only I think I mentioned something like this before. If a standard interface protocol could be developed then as things progressed and new graphics boards came along we would still be able to use old software. I also agree that providing buffers between one part of the system and another could prove very useful. Any comments. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 17:17:22 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:14:15 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961102121415_1947658955@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 360 Lines: 20 In a message dated 02/11/96 13:47:17, you write: > >On Nov 02, 1996 00:32:10, 'Dean Liversidge ' wrote: > > > >>> What colour do you want it to be? >> >>Erm, Orange..... > >How about taking the feminine design route and making it pink. >-- > >Samsboss >The One And Only Would it then match you bedroom, or your eyes? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 17:17:22 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:14:15 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961102121415_1880549963@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam-less Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1082 Lines: 24 In a message dated 02/11/96 15:35:52, you write: >I was just wondering where these SAMs come from to be >reconditioned - are they ones returned under warranty, picked >up secondhand, or is it that load that was sent halfway to >Saudi Arabia (or wherever) and then got sent back? > >-Andy Most of the recon SAMs are ones that are part-exchanged for new Elites. There are also some which came back from an Eastern European country (Poland I think) about 18 months ago without drives (the distributor had pinched the drives for sale and traded the machines back for a small batch of the early Elites). All recon machines have at least version 3.0 ROMs fitted, 512K RAM, a replacement keyboard, the main board fully checked and updated, and new manuals. The machines are also given a good soak-test. Very few coming back have slim-line drived that are good enough to past the tests, but those that do are usualy 'as new'. Machines without working slim-line drives are converted to the new style drives and at #139.95 are very good value for money (well at least I think so). Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 17:17:23 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:14:18 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961102121416_1981213387@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam-less Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 502 Lines: 13 In a message dated 02/11/96 15:15:21, you write: >> 1) SAM Elite. Single (new style) disk . . . . > > Have I missed something? What is a new style drive? How does it >differ from the one I got with my SAM Coupe in 1991? And what's that about >keyboards? Sorry? Bad boy! Who hasn't been reading FORMAT. Tell you what, email me your postal address to FormatPub@aol.com and I will send you photocopies of the review of the Elite and the new drives, together with a West Coast price list. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 17:17:23 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:14:19 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961102121418_1114238411@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1357 Lines: 33 In a message dated 02/11/96 01:35:43, you write: >So.... 8 bit with 32 bit a possibility, not 32 bit, eh? The number of bits only matters to those that have little knowledge of computers. In lots of areas we deal with we need to manipulate 1 bit at a time, reading and writing 32 bits to achieve that is daft when 8 bits will do. Someone also pointed out that there is a limit to the speed of memory. How often does the Pentium have to sit round waiting for something to be fetched from memory - lots I would think if it was not for 1st and 2nd level cache - well whats wrong with the idea of cache memory or buffers on SAMSON? > >Erk. I can see it now. Just look at the horrific problems people have >trying to access 32 bit functions on the PC, a hang over from >the 'good old days' of the 8086. >What **fun** I will have marketing DOS extenders for the SAMSON.... > >Oh, and I can see people **rushing** out to buy a **new** 8 bit machine If you sit the SAM in front of someone. Give them a game or some application (or even some small Basic program) they would not be able to tell you what was under the bonnet. And I'me sure we can come up with some ways of making the SAMSON even faster and more impressive. > >DMZ >--- >[ It's 1am.... I'm all alone, and I'm feeling nasty.. :) ] It's 5pm, I'm already to tired to work, and I'm feeling....... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 18:47:01 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 18:43:23 GMT Subject: Re: Damnation Dalmation Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <67B6A33360@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 178 Lines: 3 How do I get on the Dalmation BBS from university? I only have VAX and Unix accounts here and they need a Hostname to telnet with and not a number as far as I know. Any ideas? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 19:18:59 1996 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 14:17:43 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: The SAM Elite. To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199611021417_MC1-B94-2977@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 424 Lines: 8 So I can take it that the SAM Elite is a different computer and not just the name of that SAM Coupe package then, can I? Just incase you are wondering, my last reading of anything to do with the SAM was, strangely enough, in the last ever issue of YS. It having been less than the success everyone said it would be, I presumed it would be dead soon after that anyway. SORRY! -Thomas From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 2 22:02:47 1996 Message-Id: <199611022203.WAA03982@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Damnation Dalmation Date: 02 Nov 1996 21:56:27 References: <67B6A33360@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2227 Lines: 51 In a message of 02 Nov 96 Gavin Smith wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi Gavin, GS> How do I get on the Dalmation BBS from university? I only have VAX and GS> Unix accounts here and they need a Hostname to telnet with and not a GS> number as far as I know. Any ideas? Unfortunately, Dalmation isn't available through the net. It's a BBS in the old sense of the word - meaning computer, modem and phone line. You are very welcome if you can manage to get on. Any SAM user is. :) The main reasons for starting the BBS were: a) For SAM users without internet access, and b) for Simon (and whoever else wanted) to test SAM terminal Comms software. The BBS has been available to users for over a year now. It has had some good times when it was really busy, but things have become a little bit quiet of late. :( Most of the SAM Users who want anything to do with comms seem to be at Uni and have free internet access. I can't offer anything like as good as internet and it costs people for their (or whoever pays it) phone bills, but it is here for anyone who wants it. About 4 people on this list are members. Slawek even used to call from Germany! :) There isn't a hell of a lot in the filebase at the moment. The BBS seemed to take off mostly for the message base and we had some very high traffic in there at one time (Simon, Dean or Paul could tell you :) ). So, what I plan to do is grab everything I can from nvg and try to mirror the SAM file area for users without internet access. Maybe if we tell more SAM people, things may pick up. Or maybe not.. :) One of my friends has used both Termite and Comm'ix to go net surfing believe it or not! He was actualy using a (premium rate - but he had a little back door - unbeknown to BT) BBS to do everything, but he was into email, IRC, and grabbing files from ftp sites (by "ordering" from the BBS and downloading with comm'ix).. In all I was quite impressed at his exploits! :)) Oh no.. I've had to much beer to carry on writing... but if anyone wants further info, I'm here to give details. Reason for beer.. I've found out I'm gonna be a dad again (at the silly age of 37)! :))) Bye, _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 03:26:37 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 03:24:30 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611030324.DAA14022@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: gfw5xxa04JnjvAqv7M5j5w== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4529 Lines: 86 > >So.... 8 bit with 32 bit a possibility, not 32 bit, eh? > The number of bits only matters to those that have little knowledge of > computers. > In lots of areas we deal with we need to manipulate 1 bit at a time, reading > and writing 32 bits to achieve that is daft when 8 bits will do. Wrong, wrong... and **wrong**.... On the face of things, people DO tend to go "Oooohhh... more bits", but just because 99.99% of the population are daft doesn't mean that there isn't a valid point in there somewhere. Indeed, sometimes we do need to manipulate 1 bit at a time, but the width of the bus won't alter the read time one jot if the memory width matches (ignoring the numerous special cases which I'm sure everybody would try to correct me on if I didn't say it here)... **BUT** quite often we want to manipulate more than 1 byte, and thats where the 8 bit bus tends to get stuck reading in a piddling byte at a time. Yes, there is a limit.. I mean, who needs a 1K wide bus at present? ( hold the lines, folks ), but 32 bits isn't considered that wide by **todays** standards... it ain't all hype and salesmanship, y'know. Strangely enough, most programs tend to progress in a fairly linear fashion, meaning that even if you do need to only read in a 1 byte instruction, say, you'll be needing the next 3 fairly quickly.... Yes, an 8 bit CPU clocked really fast will outpace a slower 32 bit CPU, but there's a limit to the speed you can clock a chip at ( around 533Mhz for a mass production unit, atm ), and that's where 8 bit evaporates into history... Where do you stop? 4 bit? 2 bit? 1 bit, perhaps? Historically, the width of the bus was determined by current manufacturing limits, and still is. > Someone also pointed out that there is a limit to the speed of memory. How > often does the Pentium have to sit round waiting for something to be fetched > from memory - lots I would think if it was not for 1st and 2nd level cache - > well whats wrong with the idea of cache memory or buffers on SAMSON? Welll... the speed of memory is increasing all the time.. What, 30-40ns ( or thereabouts ) for EDO RAM? And what do you think a cache is if it ain't memory? Oh, and pentiums are just silly, anyway... I shudder to think that there's an 8086 template in there somewhere, groaning and straining at the seams... based around old technology, don't y'know... PS I knew some organic chemist who was attempting to create molecular gates for his PhD in conjunction with an electronic engineer.... PPS You've just contradicted yourself... limit to speed of memory access == wider bus better. > >Erk. I can see it now. Just look at the horrific problems people have > >trying to access 32 bit functions on the PC, a hang over from > >the 'good old days' of the 8086. > >What **fun** I will have marketing DOS extenders for the SAMSON.... > > > >Oh, and I can see people **rushing** out to buy a **new** 8 bit machine > If you sit the SAM in front of someone. Give them a game or some application > (or even some small Basic program) they would not be able to tell you what > was under the bonnet. And I'me sure we can come up with some ways of making > the SAMSON even faster and more impressive. Errmmm... actually, they do tend to go "that's rubbish" so I think they might have a fair idea. OK, this is mainly due to the screen resolution, because that's how people tend to initially judge machines.. that and how fast it's updated, of course. But, have you actually **looked** at the real world recently? Computers are getting bigger, nastier and faster. A Z80B with an effective speed of 4.75Mhz **IS** rubbish. Don't try to fob people off with the old "You're not using the machine properly" because nobody knows the limits a machine can be taken to like a demo coder... ( pause for **MEGA** flames from Bob :) Sorry if this sounds like a flame, it isn't.... honest.... In fact, I was recently looking at some of the PC packages on offer and thinking "That's just stupid. Nobody could possibly need **that** amount of proccessing power and memory" Alas, times change, and we get left behind, but you've got to run and try to catch up.... ) > > It's 5pm, I'm already to tired to work, and I'm feeling....... > Old age setting in, perhaps? :) DMZ --- [ This time it's 3am.... hmmmm... possibility of being just a tad sad? (checks notebook) wellll..... naaahh. ] Yes, being realistic means looking at a cheap starting system, but who's to say that 32 bit isn't cheap, and getting cheaper all the time.....? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 11:41:41 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 11:36:41 GMT Message-Id: <199611031136.LAA01220@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS - Screen Colours. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 464 Lines: 14 A couple of things have struck me in reading the last few days email. First, could the colour pallete be enlarged by having more entries (the bottom 128 being the standard SAM ones for old games to use? Then could Mode 4 be colour enhanced by allowing a complete change of pallete at the start of each line - in udder words each pixel on a line can be any one of 16 colours from a pallete of 64K colours? Just a thought. -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 11:41:42 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 11:36:36 GMT Message-Id: <199611031136.LAA01215@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5222 Lines: 139 On Nov 03, 1996 03:24:30, 'D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini)' wrote: > >> >So.... 8 bit with 32 bit a possibility, not 32 bit, eh? > >> The number of bits only matters to those that have little knowledge of >> computers. >> In lots of areas we deal with we need to manipulate 1 bit at a time, reading >> and writing 32 bits to achieve that is daft when 8 bits will do. > >Wrong, wrong... and **wrong**.... On the face of things, people DO tend to go >"Oooohhh... more bits", but just because 99.99% of the population are daft >doesn't mean that there isn't a valid point in there somewhere. Indeed, >sometimes we do need to manipulate 1 bit at a time, but the width of the bus >won't alter the read time one jot if the memory width matches (ignoring >the numerous special cases which I'm sure everybody would try to correct me >on if I didn't say it here)... **BUT** quite often we want to manipulate more >than 1 byte, and thats where the 8 bit bus tends to get stuck reading in a >piddling byte at a time. Yes, there is a limit.. I mean, who needs a 1K wide >bus at present? ( hold the lines, folks ), but 32 bits isn't considered that >wide by **todays** standards... it ain't all hype and salesmanship, y'know. > >Strangely enough, most programs tend to progress in a fairly linear fashion, >meaning that even if you do need to only read in a 1 byte instruction, say, >you'll be needing the next 3 fairly quickly.... >Yes, an 8 bit CPU clocked really fast will outpace a slower 32 bit CPU, but >there's a limit to the speed you can clock a chip at ( around 533Mhz for a >mass production unit, atm ), and that's where 8 bit evaporates into >history... Where do you stop? 4 bit? 2 bit? 1 bit, perhaps? Historically, >the width of the bus was determined by current manufacturing limits, and >still is. > >> Someone also pointed out that there is a limit to the speed of memory. How >> often does the Pentium have to sit round waiting for something to be fetched >> from memory - lots I would think if it was not for 1st and 2nd level cache - >> well whats wrong with the idea of cache memory or buffers on SAMSON? > >Welll... the speed of memory is increasing all the time.. What, 30-40ns >( or thereabouts ) for EDO RAM? And what do you think a cache is if it ain't >memory? Oh, and pentiums are just silly, anyway... I shudder to think that >there's an 8086 template in there somewhere, groaning and straining at the >seams... based around old technology, don't y'know... > >PS I knew some organic chemist who was attempting to create molecular gates >for his PhD in conjunction with an electronic engineer.... > >PPS You've just contradicted yourself... >limit to speed of memory access == wider bus better. > >> >Erk. I can see it now. Just look at the horrific problems people have >> >trying to access 32 bit functions on the PC, a hang over from >> >the 'good old days' of the 8086. >> >What **fun** I will have marketing DOS extenders for the SAMSON.... >> > >> >Oh, and I can see people **rushing** out to buy a **new** 8 bit machine > >> If you sit the SAM in front of someone. Give them a game or some application >> (or even some small Basic program) they would not be able to tell you what >> was under the bonnet. And I'me sure we can come up with some ways of making >> the SAMSON even faster and more impressive. > >Errmmm... actually, they do tend to go "that's rubbish" so I think they might >have a fair idea. OK, this is mainly due to the screen resolution, because >that's how people tend to initially judge machines.. that and how fast it's >updated, of course. But, have you actually **looked** at the real world >recently? Computers are getting bigger, nastier and faster. A Z80B with an >effective speed of 4.75Mhz **IS** rubbish. Don't try to fob people off with >the old "You're not using the machine properly" because nobody knows the >limits >a machine can be taken to like a demo coder... ( pause for **MEGA** flames >from >Bob :) Sorry if this sounds like a flame, it isn't.... honest.... >In fact, I was recently looking at some of the PC packages on offer and >thinking >"That's just stupid. Nobody could possibly need **that** amount of proccessing >power and memory" Alas, times change, and we get left behind, but you've got >to >run and try to catch up.... ) > >> >> It's 5pm, I'm already to tired to work, and I'm feeling....... >> > >Old age setting in, perhaps? :) > >DMZ >--- >[ This time it's 3am.... hmmmm... possibility of being just a tad sad? >(checks notebook) wellll..... naaahh. ] > >Yes, being realistic means looking at a cheap starting system, but who's >to say that 32 bit isn't cheap, and getting cheaper all the time.....? -- Sounds like you need to sell your SAM, go along to one of those nice young men a Dixons (Comets or what ever is near you) and make them very happy by parting with mega-dosh for a machine which only makes one person happy - Bill Gates. Then you can leave the rust of us "way behind the time" SAM users in peace. You know what my dad used to say - Only a poor workman blames his tools. Samsboss (s)he who must be obeyed. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 11:56:19 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 11:54:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611031136.LAA01215@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 3, 96 11:36:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 753 Lines: 22 > Sounds like you need to sell your SAM, go along to one of those nice young > men a Dixons (Comets or what ever is near you) and make them very happy by > parting with mega-dosh for a machine which only makes one person happy - > Bill Gates. > > Then you can leave the rust of us "way behind the time" SAM users in peace. > You know what my dad used to say - Only a poor workman blames his tools. > Don't be daft. Why does the SAM have more memory than a Speccy? To make a more useful computer. Why does the SAM have better storage (i.e. the drive) than the Speccy? Again, to make it more useful. Why does the SAM have a better BASIC than the Speccy? Guess. Why is everyone getting so upset if we try to extend this trend to the CPU?!! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 11:59:20 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS - Screen Colours. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 11:57:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611031136.LAA01220@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 3, 96 11:36:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 652 Lines: 14 > First, could the colour pallete be enlarged by having more entries (the > bottom 128 being the standard SAM ones for old games to use? > > Then could Mode 4 be colour enhanced by allowing a complete change of > pallete at the start of each line - in udder words each pixel on a line can > be any one of 16 colours from a pallete of 64K colours? Well, as always, the answer is yes in theory. But in practice it would require so much hardware that it wouldn't be feasible. The other point is that it would only really be of use for static screens - it wouldn't be much cop for games since the amount of processing necessary would be too great. -A From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 12:20:45 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 07:18:06 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Hello To: sam users Message-Id: <199611030718_MC1-B8F-630B@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 302 Lines: 14 >>> What colour do you want it to be? >> >>Erm, Orange..... >How about taking the feminine design route and making it pink. -- >Samsboss >The One And Only How about taking the femine route and forgetting all about logic. :-)))) Can I have one with walnut veneer and leather arm rests? Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 12:20:45 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 07:18:07 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: SAMSON (& Deliah) To: sam users Message-Id: <199611030718_MC1-B8F-630C@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 246 Lines: 8 > I think the best option is a PC case. They seem quite cheap and come with a good-quality PSU. They also look highly professional! -A Cheap ~ ish. Professional. No just the currently accepted norm (I'm having an existentialist day today) Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 12:20:46 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 07:18:09 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: smidip To: sam users Message-Id: <199611030718_MC1-B8F-630D@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 200 Lines: 12 > A mixture of BASIC and machine code. I would rather do it in C, but a decent C compiler hasn't been made yet. I've got one. A decent C fot z80 that is. and you get change out of 1000UKP Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:00:45 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:10 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS colour Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025790.4994.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1028 Lines: 20 > Have two black SAMs here. Bruce once did one in green and brown > camouflage and I always wanted on in transparant plastic. Kewl, transparant cases, with a few coloured leds on the motherboard for disk access and things like than...... I WANT ONE NOW !!!! ;-) As said before tho', The colour looks like it'll have to be cream, the standard PC type mini tower style, that would sold many problems, perfect for upgrading to a hard drive, 2 floppys (5.25" or 3.5"), and a CD reader to get access to loads of PC graphics / fonts / pictures. It's just a pity that the standard sam motherboard won't fitr in a standard PC mini tower case :-(((( Maybe a Midi /Full tower ???? :-) -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:03:03 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:09 +0000 Subject: Hello. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025801.5058.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 696 Lines: 22 > From: Simon Cooke > Subject: Re: Hello. > I've got the docs for the Truetype font spec if anyone wants a copy > ;) > > Simon Now that could come in handy for the future, any chance you could e-mail me them Si. Unless the whole group wants them ???? Or maybe put them on Dalmation... ? Cheers mate. :) -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:03:04 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:10 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS colour - reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025795.5023.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1328 Lines: 27 > Anyway, this has to be decided so that future designs know which bus > to base themselves on. What I would like to see is as follows: > > 1) Accelrator (possibly with DMA?) > 2) A new RAM module > 3) A good, efficient ISA/SCSI interface (not needed if ISA bus is > chosen) 4) Higher resolution with HW-scrolling (makes more types of > games avaialbel) and a separate graphics co-procssor (takes the load > of the processor - but is harder to program) (not needed if ISA > bus). 5) An EEPROM/SRAM/ROM boot block. Has anyone ever tried adding a standard Z80 DMA controller to the Sam, I've thought about it many times, but never got around to it. The DMA controller can do memory block moves much faster than software, and can also leave the processor to do other things, using the bus request signals, but how would this interfere with the asic and video, as far as i am aware this useing the bus control lines ???? This idea could be good for hardware video scrolling..... -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:03:04 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:10 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMSON Spec Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025787.4981.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 926 Lines: 19 > We need in this design provision for: > 3. Redesigned motherboard. The power rails need fixing, the video > output needs cleaning up... lots of bits... I reckon it needs a multi layer pcb, with the Gnd,+5v, and +12v an power planes. This should also reduce noise i reckon with having a ground signal across the whole circuit board. he other option i think would like the well designed BBC Micro, where there were multiple power connection accros the main-board, thus reducing the voltage drop / current drawn accros the tracks on the board. And the BBC was very reliable! -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:03:04 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:10 +0000 Subject: Son Of Sam [ROM] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025795.5025.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2055 Lines: 39 > One thing concerns me though: programming. We can use > the XMEML signal to program the SRAM, but this could > cause a bit of a problem since the existing megabyte > expansion does not have a disable facility. The alternative > is to use output ports to program the SRAM, but this > would be slower and not so good for programs which > would want to change its code in the SRAM occasionally. I don't think that any programs should be able to alter the SRAM from within, there should be a set utility to upgrade the SRAM with a new program / utility. Otherwise everyones programs may not run consistantly. Major incompatabilities. The SRAM should have 2 i/o addresses that need activating or a password/bios control/update system to be able to update it. I think that there should be 1 main area or ROM (BIOS) that controls the rest, similar to the sideways ROM system on the BBC Micro. which governs the other ROMS/SRAMS on board, then GUI's, Assembler, Compliers can all be accessed through that, and implemented only if equired. Totally user configurable system, with whatever system the user wishes as their main start up sytem. Which could be BASIC, GUI, Assembler / monitor, Spectrum mode, Games loader system, whatever. and all would have a standard control system --- the BIOS. Dont allow programs to screw up the system or hell will break loose with compatability. System variable area's are for programs to mess with. There could be a seperate 'empty' RAM area for user programs on a similar line to the Multiface, but this should be kept seperate from the ROM image areas in SRAM, the User Ram area could still be accessed by the Bios again similar to the BBC sideways RAM system. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:03:31 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:09 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025787.4977.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1618 Lines: 36 > > I think that everyone prefers a GUI to a CLI. Any comments? It depends on how good it is, as to how much it helps productivity / ease of use. If the GUI was in the system ROM and could be called up into action within a few seconds then thats great, you can switch between whenever you wish and not sit there waiting for 1-2 minutes getting annoyed. ( sound familiar to anyone :-) ) > We need both... And we definitely need some sort of programmiung > language built in... and preferably an assembler too. A built in assembler / monitor is a must in my opinion, a bit in the line of the Multiface system, but much enhanced with a proper assembler, maybe CAT or COMET..... > We also need to specify an executable file type for code so that it > can allocate memory space, etc... That would be a good idea, but the only way i can think of doing something like that is is programs are writen in a sort of modular style, say with the program modules being 16/32K long and each module runs in the top 1/2 pages, if any other modules are required then these need to store any passing information in the lower pages (a specific stack system), then the new module is then paged in to the top 1/2 pages again, as much as required for the size of the program. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:04:23 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:10 +0000 Subject: Son Of Sam [CLI or GUI] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025795.5021.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 980 Lines: 22 > Well the man in the street doesn't want to learn new commands. > People hate that sort of thing. > How about having it user configurable. When the machine is bought, > it's set up for the GUI, but it's possible to set it up so that the > CLI can be startup instead. You can't really have a modern machine > without a GUI, though. > > Who wants to type PRINT 12345*54321-9876 on startup anyway? :) How many Sam users dont do a little bit of programming ????? Haw many 'men in the street' would buy a SAM / SAMSON as aposed to buying a 'steet PC' that would be able to do 'man in the street' type things ? - not many me thinks. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:08:47 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:09 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025786.4980.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1503 Lines: 29 > >I think we should be considering moving towards using standard PC > >cases, with PC size & shape interface cards -- if just for the > >fact that the SAM cases can't be fabricated any more (as far as I > True, the tool for the SAM case still exists but would cost > mega-bucks to reuse. PC cases are: a) cheap; b) easy to come by; and > c) come with bloody good power supplies built-in. As to the > interface cards, wellll - go on then - persuade me. I agree with the case, and cards. On the Sam main-board there could be the normal Sam card plus a few standard PC connectors and i'm sure it wouldn't be too dificult to implement an interconnection interface sam-pc to be able to use either old 8-bit XT type vid cards, or with a bit of address/data multiplexing then 16 ISA video card, and possible other items. The sam interfaced could sit in the standard connectors with a small steady bracket on the top to the case edge, and the connectors should just fit under the cover so to be extended to the back connector slots with a small cable, although a few of the D'type connectors may need to be removed and a cable hard-wired t the board. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:10:30 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025790.4996.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 837 Lines: 15 > Aaaarrrgggghhh! I've had it! The problem with holding things in ROM > is that they get outdated too quickly... just look at all the > additions to SAM BASIC. Leave the BIOS to the ROMs, and load > EVERYTHING else... BASIC, assemblers, whatever, into RAM. Well, thats the whole idea of having battery backed SRAM / EEPROM to store programs / utilities that are loaded/accessed by the Boot-up ROM / BIOS and can be overwritten / upgraded with just softeware, no hardware upgrade required. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 13:11:09 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:55:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847025790.4998.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 705 Lines: 13 > If you're going to go for PC cases, choose nice ones. So many > PCs are incredibly ugly and horrid. Be careful here - and choose the > same one for all of them. The beauty of PC cases is that there are hundreds to choose from, so the choice is entirely your own, the internals are basically the same so you find one you like and put your inside's inside. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 16:24:18 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:23:14 GMT Subject: Re: Damnation Dalmation Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <7D611101EE@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1790 Lines: 41 > In a message of 02 Nov 96 Gavin Smith wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: > > Hi Gavin, > > GS> How do I get on the Dalmation BBS from university? I only have VAX and > GS> Unix accounts here and they need a Hostname to telnet with and not a > GS> number as far as I know. Any ideas? > > Unfortunately, Dalmation isn't available through the net. It's a BBS in the > old sense of the word - meaning computer, modem and phone line. I haven't given up yet ;) Surely there must be some way if you have an internet connection, never mind just a modem? > So, what I plan to do is grab everything I can from nvg and try to mirror > the SAM file area for users without internet access. Sounds good! Especially if you don't use teledisk to compress the files! I still haven't got it to work and I've asked this list a few times now for help on using the files from nvg, but still no help :~( *sobs* > One of my friends has used both Termite and Comm'ix to go net surfing > believe it or not! He was actualy using a (premium rate - but he had a > little back door - unbeknown to BT) BBS to do everything, but he was into > email, IRC, and grabbing files from ftp sites (by "ordering" from the BBS > and downloading with comm'ix).. In all I was quite impressed at his > exploits! :)) Hang on a mo...he has been on IRC with his Sam?!?! Which reminds me, in the talk about the new Sam and its internet software, can someone do an IRC client? > Oh no.. I've had to much beer to carry on writing... but if anyone wants > further info, I'm here to give details. Reason for beer.. I've found out I'm > gonna be a dad again (at the silly age of 37)! :))) CONGRATULATIONS!! But you don't need an excuse like becoming a dad to drink beer! Take us students for example... Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 17:17:43 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Son Of Sam [ROM] To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 17:15:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <847025795.5025.0@error.demon.co.uk> from "Dean Liversidge" at Nov 3, 96 12:55:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 12 > I don't think that any programs should be able to alter the SRAM from > within, there should be a set utility to upgrade the SRAM with a new > program / utility. Otherwise everyones programs may not run > consistantly. Major incompatabilities. > What I was thinking was that one 32K chunk of the SRAM could be used by the currently running application - this would help with the SAM's awkward RAM paging. Also, the code in SRAM would run faster. -A From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 17:51:55 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611031750.RAA10314@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 17:50:54 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611021614.QAA24051@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 2, 96 04:14:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2067 Lines: 51 > > Have read lots in the last few days about the need for faster graphics and > to relieve the strain on the main CPU. Would it be possible to set up a > graphics co-processor, with its own memory and video output, and then drive > it with high-level commands? Something line the terminal control language > used on some of the older systems at uni. > All you need to do is pass a short(ish) string of bytes through a FIFO > buffer to the slave processor which would then carry out the command. For > example:- > > SCROLL (screen number, direction, number of pixels) > DEF SPRITE (sprite number, size, data bytes) > MOVE SPRITE (sprite number, direction, number of pixels (other controls)) > You are suggesting a dedicated processor for the graphics with a limited range of commands. It would be much more interesting to have a good all round graphics procssor (such as a Z80 or two). That way we need not limit it to such simple opperations, we could give them programs in their own memory to draw polygons, or spheres aswell as simple scrolling. PC graphics cards use the techniques you are describing -dedicated hardware for everything, this works out very expensive and not very pleasant to use. If we set up our extendend archetecture as a parrallel processing device the programmer could allocate the number of proccesors required for each task, there is no need to have any chips on a graphics board other than thoes requred to send the graphics memory to the screen in the desired mannor. The programmer would know how many Z80s there are on the particular machine so could allocate any number of these (which are all located on the main board) to do any job in the program. If the programmer wants full screen scrolling he could allocate an accelerated Z80 to do it. If the programmer wants polygon graphics he could allocated a couple of accelerated Z80s to do it. > Samsboss > The One And Only Why constain our selfs to a few instructions, if you are suggesting a parallel graphics processor why not make it programable? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 18:09:40 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611031807.SAA10904@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:07:41 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611030324.DAA14022@aron.cs.cf.ac.uk> from "D M Zambonini" at Nov 3, 96 03:24:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2204 Lines: 48 > > > > >So.... 8 bit with 32 bit a possibility, not 32 bit, eh? > > > The number of bits only matters to those that have little knowledge of > > computers. > > In lots of areas we deal with we need to manipulate 1 bit at a time, reading > > and writing 32 bits to achieve that is daft when 8 bits will do. > > Wrong, wrong... and **wrong**.... On the face of things, people DO tend to go > "Oooohhh... more bits", but just because 99.99% of the population are daft > doesn't mean that there isn't a valid point in there somewhere. Indeed, > sometimes we do need to manipulate 1 bit at a time, but the width of the bus > won't alter the read time one jot if the memory width matches (ignoring > the numerous special cases which I'm sure everybody would try to correct me > on if I didn't say it here)... **BUT** quite often we want to manipulate more > than 1 byte, and thats where the 8 bit bus tends to get stuck reading in a > piddling byte at a time. Yes, there is a limit.. I mean, who needs a 1K wide > bus at present? ( hold the lines, folks ), but 32 bits isn't considered that > wide by **todays** standards... it ain't all hype and salesmanship, y'know. > I have to agree with the first comment, 32bit wide data is both waistfull of time -reading stuff that is not requred and waistfull of memory. 8 bits are more than enough, we just need to read thoes 8 bits 4 times as fast! The main cause for the 8bit ->16bit ->32bit ->64bit progression IS because the man in the street likes big numbers. I was showing SAMfighter to one of my parents friends (a highly qualified engineer who had used computers from near the beginning) over the holidys. His first comment was that he did not realise an 8bit computers could be so smooth. I tried to explain how there were lots of smooth spectrum games too and how little that nasty label '8-bit programmer' actual means. But he COULD NOT understand. We ARE at a disadvantage because of peoples perceptions. There is one way out of this 'hole of perception' that I can see... That same man in the street has all ready been 'programmed' that parallel processing is the way of the future! -this 'buzzword' could carry us on! C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 18:14:39 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611031812.SAA11141@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - Screen Colours. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:12:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611031136.LAA01220@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 3, 96 11:36:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 460 Lines: 11 The Sam has been constructed in such a way that it expects to send the same picture to the TV every frame. A way to bodge extra colours could be to redesign it in such a way as to expect the output signal to be interlaced (just like normal TV) so that it uses the extra lines inbetween the normal ones. -its just a thought, I may be confused! Numb. If we do go in the direction of SVGA how could we possibly still connect the machine to a normal TV? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 18:23:13 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611031821.SAA11416@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS more killer Applications To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:21:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199610291941_MC1-B77-29F1@compuserve.com> from "Thomas Harte" at Oct 29, 96 07:41:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 734 Lines: 17 > > Is there a SAM C compiler? If so, how would I get it? I write PC > games in C at the minute, and presuming the Samson was fully compatible > with code from the SAM C compiler, I could get to work doing some filled > polygon type things. But I would need a rough idea of the speed difference > between the regular SAM & the Samson first, obviously. > We will eventually need a 3D modeling/polygon/texture mapping/snazzy shading/oval mapping/raytracing package.(There never was decent one for SAM!) If we could start working towards such a package now it could be ready for the release date, it would certainly help sales in schools! Has anyone seen a nice silicon graphics one we could base it on? :o) Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 18:30:23 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611031828.SAA11680@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - CLI IS basic! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:28:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961101112905_1114110241@emout08.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 1, 96 11:29:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1264 Lines: 28 > >It's a CLI of sorts. But what we need is a CLI that will let you quickly > >manipulate files without resorting to BASIC syntax. Something that can > >handle possibly the most useful feature in the world -- filename completion > >(just type part of the name, hit TAB, and the computer fills in the rest). > > Twaddle, p*&s off, go away, aaaaah!!! - the thing that drives me up the wall > more than anything else is a computer that 'thinks' it knows what I want and > then goes an cocks me up by doing the wrong thing. > > I don't see any difference between a direct Basic command and a CLI. There > may be on systems that need the Basic to be compiled but there is not on SAM. > > Line numbers are not a bad thing. What you got against them. OK you CAN write > Basic without them but it would slow things down a lot. > SAM basic is one of our most powerfull tools (and it has already been written!). We need a comprehensive list of the modifications we need to make to the DOS syntax to make it more consistant. I often have trouble remembering what machine I am using when faced with a prompt (seriously!) I always manage to type ls first in MSdos and dir first in UNIX! How about making SBDos (SamBasicDos!) support either! nUMB. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 18:33:47 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611031832.SAA11821@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: EMail To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:32:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <327A964C.31C@csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "MR P R WALKER" at Nov 1, 96 04:31:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 92 Lines: 4 > > Did anyone else get a blank message from MR P R WALKER entitled EMail? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 18:36:16 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:35:17 GMT Subject: Re: EMail Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <7F94325A47@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 271 Lines: 8 > > > > > Did anyone else get a blank message from MR P R WALKER entitled EMail? > Numb. Yep, and I have had one or two others in the past from various people which were blank...*cue spooky music* OY! BOB! You aren't censoring these somehow are you? *grin* From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 18:41:20 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611031839.SAA12149@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: EMail To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:39:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <7F94325A47@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> from "Gavin Smith" at Nov 3, 96 06:35:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 427 Lines: 14 > > > > > > > > > Did anyone else get a blank message from MR P R WALKER entitled EMail? > > Numb. > > Yep, and I have had one or two others in the past from various people > which were blank...*cue spooky music* OY! BOB! You aren't censoring > these somehow are you? *grin* > Can't be. The last few lines of one of mine a couple of days ago was lost -and I don't have any opinions! :o> *smirk* Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 18:54:27 1996 Posted-Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 19:51:24 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <327CE099.33A6@pi.net> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 19:12:41 +0100 From: "M.Drissen" Organization: Planet Internet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-PI-32 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Bye bye References: <9611012000.AA08976@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 251 Lines: 15 Not really, this is just my last message from my home account. I would appreciate it if all emails would be sent to: Stefan_Drissen@nl.coopers.com My home address is now: Godevaert Montensstraat 17 4811 PD BREDA The Netherlands phone: not yet From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 21:11:19 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:10:13 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611031750.RAA10314@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 3, 96 05:50:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1299 Lines: 28 > You are suggesting a dedicated processor for the graphics with a limited > range of commands. It would be much more interesting to have a good all > round graphics procssor (such as a Z80 or two). That way we need not limit > If we set up our extendend archetecture as a parrallel processing device > the programmer could allocate the number of proccesors required for each task, > there is no need to have any chips on a graphics board other than thoes > requred to send the graphics memory to the screen in the desired mannor. > The programmer would know how many Z80s there are on the particular machine > so could allocate any number of these (which are all located on the main > board) to do any job in the program. > You can't really think it'll be that easy, do you?!! Parallel processing is a very complex issue tying up the time of thousands of research groups around the world - and they have enough trouble getting results using devices designed for easy parallel processing, not z80s! There would still be the problem of several z80s sharing the same memory, which isn't easy to resolve without lots of hardware. What about what I suggested of having the existing SAM as a glorified i/o device with graphics facilities, *and* letting the new CPU access video ram directly?! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 21:18:23 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:17:27 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611031807.SAA10904@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 3, 96 06:07:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1186 Lines: 30 > I have to agree with the first comment, 32bit wide data is both waistfull > of time -reading stuff that is not requred and waistfull of memory. > Take the case of the z80 reading a LD HL,05678h - that would three reads on an 8-bit bus, two on a 16-bit, and one on a 32-bit z80 (if there is such a beast). There's no way that that's wasteful. And so what if we only manipulate one bit at a time? Reading 8 bits modifying a bit and writing it back will be just as slow as reading 32 bits, modifying one and writing them back. In fact, the chances are that the 32 bit operation would be faster as there aren't that many new, fast, 8-bit devices. Also, with a 32-bit architecture the contention for video memory is reduced since the video circuitry only needs to read from RAM one quarter of the frequency as with an 8-bit architecture. Admittedly this won't make much difference with the sort of machine we're looking at. > We ARE at a disadvantage because of peoples perceptions. > Well, sticking with 8-bits isn't going to help, is it?! As for the buzzword parallel processing - the chances are that what we'd be looking at is co-processing, which is far less impressive. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 21:42:54 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:41:51 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961103164149_1747275348@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1059 Lines: 32 In a message dated 03/11/96 11:55:57, you write: >Don't be daft. Why does the SAM have more memory than a Speccy? >To make a more useful computer. Because RAM got cheaper. > >Why does the SAM have better storage (i.e. the drive) than the >Speccy? Again, to make it more useful. Spectrum had disc, infact if it was not for the development work in the DISCiPLE and PLUS D we would never have had the SAM. > >Why does the SAM have a better BASIC than the Speccy? Guess. Not that much better than a Spectrum running Beta Basic, nicer because it is all in ROM but the Spectrum could have the same advanced basic if we wanted. > >Why is everyone getting so upset if we try to extend this >trend to the CPU?!! > I don't think everyone is upset. But we do have to be realistic. And a SAMSON that is BASED on anything other than a Z80 will be very difficult to make compatible with the SAM - and we MUST NOT throw compatibility out the window. OK, I'm not saying 100% compatible, but as close as we can get in the while working within a budget. >-Andy > > Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 21:42:55 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:41:45 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961103164144_1549741780@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: smidip Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 294 Lines: 17 In a message dated 03/11/96 12:19:51, you write: >> A mixture of BASIC and machine code. I would rather do it in C, but a >decent C compiler hasn't been made yet. > >I've got one. >A decent C fot z80 that is. > >and you get change out of 1000UKP > >Nev. > > Yes, but not much change. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 21:50:27 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:45:26 GMT Message-Id: <199611032145.VAA12275@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 810 Lines: 22 On Nov 03, 1996 12:55:10, 'Dean Liversidge ' wrote: >> Aaaarrrgggghhh! I've had it! The problem with holding things in ROM >> is that they get outdated too quickly... just look at all the >> additions to SAM BASIC. Leave the BIOS to the ROMs, and load >> EVERYTHING else... BASIC, assemblers, whatever, into RAM. > >Well, thats the whole idea of having battery backed SRAM / EEPROM to >store programs / utilities that are loaded/accessed by the Boot-up >ROM / BIOS and can be overwritten / upgraded with just softeware, no >hardware upgrade required. >-- >Dean Liversidge .__ . , >Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS Well done Deanny baby, you got it - so why do others have problems with the concepts? Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 22:00:04 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:55:21 GMT Message-Id: <199611032155.VAA12661@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam [CLI or GUI] From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1434 Lines: 44 On Nov 03, 1996 12:55:10, 'Dean Liversidge ' wrote: >> Well the man in the street doesn't want to learn new commands. >> People hate that sort of thing. > >> How about having it user configrable. When the machine is bought, >> it's set up for the GUI, but it's possible to set it up so that the >> CLI can be startup instead. You can't really have a modern machine >> without a GUI, though. >> >> Who wants to type PRINT 12345*54321-9876 on startup anyway? :) > >How many Sam users dont do a little bit of programming ????? The SAM has one big advantage over a PC, it does not take 25mins+ to boot up and get running. And if more things are put in SRAM then life will be even faster. Oh, forgot, SAM has another big, big, BIG advantage. No Microsoft :) > >Haw many 'men in the street' would buy a SAM / SAMSON as aposed to >buying a 'steet PC' that would be able to do 'man in the street' type >things ? - not many me thinks. No, maybe not. But what if SAMSON has simple software for SAY, Family Trees, and could be sold with that software for less than half the cost of a PC. Lots would go for it as a dedicated machine I think. Now what else could we dedicated the SAMSON to? Garden Design? Knitting Pattern Generation? Coin/Stamp Collection Management? Nuclear Reactor Management? any other ideas you lot? > >-- >Dean Liversidge Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 22:04:52 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:59:51 GMT Message-Id: <199611032159.VAA12867@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2541 Lines: 72 On Nov 03, 1996 17:50:54, 'SL Harding ' wrote: >> >> Have read lots in the last few days about the need for faster graphics and >> to relieve the strain on the main CPU. Would it be possible to set up a >> graphics co-processor, with its own memory and video output, and then drive >> it with high-level commands? Something line the terminal control language >> used on some of the older systems at uni. > >> All you need to do is pass a short(ish) string of bytes through a FIFO >> buffer to the slave processor which would then carry out the command. For >> example:- >> >> SCROLL (screen number, direction, number of pixels) >> DEF SPRITE (sprite number, size, data bytes) >> MOVE SPRITE (sprite number, direction, number of pixels (other controls)) >> > >You are suggesting a dedicated processor for the graphics with a limited >range of commands. It would be much more interesting to have a good all >round graphics procssor (such as a Z80 or two). That way we need not limit >it to such simple opperations, we could give them programs in their own >memory to draw polygons, or spheres aswell as simple scrolling. >PC graphics cards use the techniques you are describing -dedicated >hardware for everything, this works out very expensive and not very >pleasant to use. > Methinks thats what the original mailing was talking about. Reread the posting and I think you will see. If it wasn't then I agree with you, and this is where a different processor could come in for starters. >If we set up our extendend archetecture as a parrallel processing device >the programmer could allocate the number of proccesors required for each task, >there is no need to have any chips on a graphics board other than thoes >requred to send the graphics memory to the screen in the desired mannor. >The programmer would know how many Z80s there are on the particular machine >so could allocate any number of these (which are all located on the main >board) to do any job in the program. > > >If the programmer wants full screen scrolling he could allocate an >accelerated Z80 to do it. > >If the programmer wants polygon graphics he could allocated a couple of >accelerated Z80s to do it. > Could get very confusing. But it is worth looking at. > >> Samsboss >> The One And Only > > >Why constain our selfs to a few instructions, if you are suggesting a >parallel graphics processor why not make it programable? > >Numb. > > -- Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 22:09:42 1996 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:02:09 GMT Message-Id: <199611032202.WAA13005@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Screen Colours. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 765 Lines: 24 On Nov 03, 1996 18:12:49, 'SL Harding ' wrote: >The Sam has been constructed in such a way that it expects to send the >same picture to the TV every frame. A way to bodge extra colours could be >to redesign it in such a way as to expect the output signal to be >interlaced (just like normal TV) so that it uses the extra lines inbetween >the normal ones. > -its just a thought, I may be confused! > > Numb. Did I once see a routine that interlaced two screens? Cold have been FRED. > >If we do go in the direction of SVGA how could we possibly still connect >the machine to a normal TV? -- Normal TV for the lower modes, but not for the higher, the electonics would not be good enough. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 3 23:44:18 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 23:42:43 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961103164149_1747275348@emout08.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 3, 96 04:41:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1208 Lines: 28 > I don't think everyone is upset. But we do have to be realistic. And a SAMSON > that is BASED on anything other than a Z80 will be very difficult to make > compatible with the SAM - and we MUST NOT throw compatibility out the window. > OK, I'm not saying 100% compatible, but as close as we can get in the while > working within a budget. > I think we'd all agree that the new SAM has to be able to run existing SAM software, and that means that there has to be a z80 in the box somewhere - but it doesn't mean the z80 has to be the main processor. Does the SAMson *have* to use the ASIC? We know there's quite a lot of them in stock, but it is the ASIC that is really restricting the design - the fact that it is limited to 6MHz and implements a nasty paging structure is the problem. Does the SAMson have to use the existing stocks? Since Bob's the man with the cash :-) how about he gives us a very definite list of what the SAMson must be able to do (other than run the majority of SAM software). For example: * must it use the asic? * does it have to be possible to plug in SAM peripherals? * does the disc format have to be the same as now? * does it have to be able to drive a tv? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 01:06:48 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:01:22 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS: Seperate list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847069370.8627.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1074 Lines: 22 > >> >We could have a seperate mailing list, but I'm sure everyone > >> >would subscribe to it anyway just to see what's happening. > >> Fair enough, but I thought it might be easier to handle that > > Would it be better to appoint some mug (sorry some nice helpful > person) to take in each days mailings (by direct email, not via the > list), consolidate them into one and the mail it out to a list of > people who want it. This could avoid lots of duplications. No, leave the mailing list as it is, we all seem to want to know about Samson, as everybody seems to be contributing. Anyway theres only been one other topic that i can recall here since, that was the MIDI player, so messages arn't getting lost or anything. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 01:06:48 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:01:22 +0000 Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847069361.8601.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1480 Lines: 31 > >Perhaps for a while we could have an Amstrad PcW-style GUI, whereby > >there is a pointer driven set of utilities (WP, Calc, Diary, etc) > >and basic file management until the full thing comes along. > As long as noone tries to make it look and work like the dreaded > Win95. > Bob. Sorry, but in my option that would be exactly how it should be, for anyone whose used it properly, i'm sure they agree it is a beter system, than any of the previous version, maybe not perfect but what is?? The main downfall it that its so memory hungry and slow, but thats what you get when you program so much into it, and when its programmed in C/C++ !! On a small integrated computer like the Sam, C/C++ isn't up to the job, it's too slow, on a computer with a 6Mhz clock it need the maximum in efficient code to be able to do any of the things that anyone is talking about, and Ithink that C produces code too slow and too large. Modular programs can work just as good in assemble as in C, all that is required is a set of rules for the interchange of information between the modules, which it also needed in any modular system. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 01:06:49 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:01:22 +0000 Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847069407.8642.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1358 Lines: 28 > If someone mentions Win95 again I'll scream. Win95 ---- go on scream !!!! > A GUI should be that, a GRAPHICAL User Interface. Not menu bars and > long lists of programs which you have to READ to work out which you > want. Clear, simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) > with as little writing as possible - that is a GUI. What the hell are you on about, you dont have to READ anything different to any other GUI, with win95, its is exactly as you discribe a GUI, but it is also so much more, if you want it to be. And menu bars are a good and usefull step inbetween CLI and GUI. It makes work easier, with less overhead or screen usage that icons only, which can often hinder a usefull program, icons are often used as an extra to the menu selections in programs, for the most used menu items etc. So what have you got againt Win95 then Bob, is it anything like when you said you disliked the internet in Format when you first used it, where now you are using it quite a lot it seems -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 01:06:49 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:01:22 +0000 Subject: Re: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847069362.8602.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2970 Lines: 59 > A lot of people have suggested GUI's to attract new buyers, and > others CLI's because they want to retain speed. Then, there are > those who have sugested a CLI on top of a GUI or vice versa, but I > have an entirely new suggestion. > > How about having a CLI and a GUI that run entirely independantly? > The CLI could retain full SAM compatibility, while the GUI could > take full advantage of any new hardware that finds it way into the > SAMson. As there was no standard GUI on the SAM, although driver was > good, you could be sure that no-one would try to run old software in > that mode. But, both could share the same file structure and file > formats, so that the advanced user can navigate between the two with > ease. Also, the GUI could have a basic emulator, similar to the 48k > speccy ones printed in old Speccy mags, which would allow *most* old > SAM software to be run from the GUI. A proper GUI should enable be able to run all the CLI programs exactly as they were designed, but just giving acces to running them from within a graphical enviroment, obviously it has advantages of being able to run the graphical sytle application specificaly designed for it. Any new hardware should be accesable from the CLI or the GUI, it only required the approprate software to drive the hardware. A good GUI should be able to run a CLI program, then when the program is terminated correctly, restore the GUI environment to how it was before the CLI program was called. > Also, I think web browsing is a must. Much as the original SAM would > have done much better if it had caught the initial wave of 16bit > home computer buyers, and not been released when the Atari & Amiga > were already established, I think that a stlg400 or less SAMson which > surfs the web, and, unlike it's competitors, is quite a nice home > computer with a good catalogue of software, and will, at a pinch, > run that Spectrum software everyone still has lying around and > remembers fondly from their youth. Retrogaming is very profitable > right now too. The Sam cannot be a succesfull Web machine, because it is not really powerful enough to be able to get the amount of information a web page displays on the screen, nor do i think it could cope with the amount of graphics, especialy animation, used in the majority on high quality web pages, and it is this that is bringing the general public into the 'Web Scene'. -- IMHO !!!! > One more thing, can we have a mouse and an external keyboard socket > as standard with the SAMson please? That is a must I think, I like the PC type keyboard, layout is perfect. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 01:07:02 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:01:22 +0000 Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847069369.8625.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1426 Lines: 29 > Another thing is to look into some of the dedicated chips available > that could lower the workload of the Z80 - keyboard chips spring to > mind as a starter A serial connection to PC keyboard, with a patched keyboard routine would be great, but virtualy incompatable with any software not using the Rom keyscanning routines. > Oh yes, one more thing. Does anyone have any comments to make of the > Kaleidoscope interface? Not a lot were sold but was it a good idea > or not. That was a very usefull I/O interface, able to connect many projects for the budding electronics person. I once connected an LCD display panel, with a view to having an extra display on the sam for debugging purposes, but could be used as a new video mode for the Sam, or a Laptop version, but alas same as anything on the Sam or anything else for that matter, it never gets finished. But alas the colour system was a failure. It required too much software overhead, and the colours would fail momentarily whenever there disk access or anything alse like sound, that took over the system. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 01:07:02 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:01:22 +0000 Subject: Samson [SAM 2 PC] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847069370.8624.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2617 Lines: 49 > On a different matter, Bob has been talking of having a separate > graphics adapter - similar in idea, I suppose, to the PC. Well, > since everyone seems to be worried about the SAM's capabilities, how > about making the SAM that adapter? The SAM would be a sort of i/o > coprocessor, reading the keyboard, controlling the floppy and > dealing with the display. Then we would have a separate CPU plug > into the expansion bus which would have a processor, a ROM, lots of > RAM and glue logic which implemented a nice memory structure. The > new CPU would communicate with the SAM either through some > communication ports, or by tri-stating the Z80, taking control of > its signals, and looking at the SAM memory as a 64K window in the > new CPU's address map. One idea that i had quite a while ago, before the idea of Samson, was to interface the main Sam circuit board expansion bus to the expansion bus or a fast Parallel I/O bus(es) so that the sam can get access to all the requird /cheap/ PC hardware such as IDE intefaced, Keyboard, video cards, CD's. This in my plan would invole a basic PC - case ^ psu, cheap 3/486 motherboard, 1 meg or so memory, hard & floppy drive, plus 1 interconnection card to the SAM, with on board boot rom. The Sam could then request information from the PC, ie read x number of disk sectors/files which would be buffered in the PC memory, then transfered by the I/O card to the Sam, and Video memory or commands sent to the PC from the Sam, in effect true parallel proccesing. With the program in Rom on the PC controlling all the I/O on the PC from whichever commands it was given, also alowing expandability for new hardware, video grabbers, scanners, TV tuners, you name it ..., just by adding the hardware and upgrading the Rom (EEPROM). The communication between machines would be very simialr to the Spectrum/Microdrive style hook codes.?? I think that this would then bring together almost all the problems of creating new hardware, This could be achived in a very short time scale (so why havn't I got around to doing it yet ???? ;-) ) With a larger towe case, both PC unit and Sam mainboard could be mounted in one case, with a bit of bracketing here and there :) What does anyone think about that. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 07:44:49 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:46:18 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611040746.AA29377@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Damnation Dalmation X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1209 Lines: 28 > > So, what I plan to do is grab everything I can from nvg and try to mirror > > the SAM file area for users without internet access. > > Sounds good! Especially if you don't use teledisk to compress the > files! I still haven't got it to work and I've asked this list a few > times now for help on using the files from nvg, but still no help :~( > *sobs* Teledisk? Have you downloaded the software? Followed the instructions? It's childs play - really. :) Give me a mail if you have problems. > > > One of my friends has used both Termite and Comm'ix to go net surfing > > believe it or not! He was actualy using a (premium rate - but he had a > > little back door - unbeknown to BT) BBS to do everything, but he was into > > email, IRC, and grabbing files from ftp sites (by "ordering" from the BBS > > and downloading with comm'ix).. In all I was quite impressed at his > > exploits! :)) > > Hang on a mo...he has been on IRC with his Sam?!?! Which reminds me, > in the talk about the new Sam and its internet software, can someone > do an IRC client? IRC is text based. A comm program is as usefull if you have a dial-up shell account. If not, you'r back to the TCP/IP stack. :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 07:56:10 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:58:00 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611040758.AA29386@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1185 Lines: 28 > I have to agree with the first comment, 32bit wide data is both waistfull > of time -reading stuff that is not requred and waistfull of memory. > > 8 bits are more than enough, we just need to read thoes 8 bits 4 times as > fast! Actually, the z80 processor-speed is more than adequate for the ZX Spectrum with it's resolution, but what the SAM did wrong was to quadruple the resolution witout even doubling the processor power. It is soooo hard to make a decent scroll-em-up in mode 4 with decent gameplay. I've just scraped two designs because I keep getting 12.5 FPS. > > The main cause for the 8bit ->16bit ->32bit ->64bit progression > IS because the man in the street likes big numbers. I was showing > SAMfighter to one of my parents friends (a highly qualified engineer who > had used computers from near the beginning) over the holidys. His first > comment was that he did not realise an 8bit computers could be so smooth. > > I tried to explain how there were lots of smooth spectrum games too and how > little that nasty label '8-bit programmer' actual means. But he COULD NOT > understand. When can we get a preview? When can we see what trics you used? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 08:07:09 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:08:02 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611040808.AA29393@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1392 Lines: 35 > >Don't be daft. Why does the SAM have more memory than a Speccy? > >To make a more useful computer. > > Because RAM got cheaper. And because the resolution got higher. > > > >Why does the SAM have better storage (i.e. the drive) than the > >Speccy? Again, to make it more useful. > > Spectrum had disc, infact if it was not for the development work in the > DISCiPLE and PLUS D we would never have had the SAM. True, but that was some years after 1982, remember. > > > >Why does the SAM have a better BASIC than the Speccy? Guess. > > Not that much better than a Spectrum running Beta Basic, nicer because it is > all in ROM but the Spectrum could have the same advanced basic if we wanted. > > > >Why is everyone getting so upset if we try to extend this > >trend to the CPU?!! > > > I don't think everyone is upset. But we do have to be realistic. And a SAMSON > that is BASED on anything other than a Z80 will be very difficult to make > compatible with the SAM - and we MUST NOT throw compatibility out the window. > OK, I'm not saying 100% compatible, but as close as we can get in the while > working within a budget. As far as I have been able to figure out, the Z80 emulator on the PC is more Spectrum compatible than the SAM - and that's all in software. How about throwing away HW compability (you will have problems with protected disc sofware), but have SW compability? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 08:16:10 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:17:15 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611040817.AA29400@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS chapter1 conclusions X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 424 Lines: 11 > ii) :) brand-new CPU which is fast and competitive > :) could choose Z380 so that programmers find it easy > to make the move > :( new design will be quite remote from existing design > :) having two CPUs will mean that graphics will be faster > than anything possible with i) above Trouble is the Z80's 64K restriction. 64K is not near what is needed for resolution in a new computer. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:33:27 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961104102658.0090a624@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 10:26:58 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 581 Lines: 19 At 05:09 PM 11/1/96 +0000, you wrote: >The best thing about this whole idea is that it brings together >what we've all been thinking of - a faster processor, lots >of RAM, and better graphics management. The graphics can either >be done by the z80 (ideal for textual applications) or directly >by the new CPU (as would be necessary for games etc.). Also, >SAM software would still run on the Z80 (the new CPU would >be disabled). > >Any ideas? As Gene Wilder said in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory... "Scratch that, reverse it"... Design and specs coming soon... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:33:28 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611040851.IAA15290@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:51:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611040758.AA29386@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 4, 96 08:58:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 814 Lines: 27 > > > I have to agree with the first comment, 32bit wide data is both waistfull > > of time -reading stuff that is not requred and waistfull of memory. > > > > 8 bits are more than enough, we just need to read thoes 8 bits 4 times as > > fast! > > Actually, the z80 processor-speed is more than adequate for the > ZX Spectrum with it's resolution, but what the SAM did wrong was to > quadruple the resolution without even doubling the processor > power. > Exactly! That is just how I would describe the problem! If we are even thinking about SVGA we NEED MORE POWER! > > > >SAMfighter > > > When can we get a preview? When can we see what trics you used? The scrolling method is not that special. Its the quick sprite dumping that stops you from noticing it. Before christmas(?) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:33:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961104102659.0090d1e8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 10:26:59 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Sam Son Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 546 Lines: 16 At 06:25 PM 11/1/96 +0000, you wrote: >3. Graphics > >Higher res graphics and more colours are definitely needed - people expect it >nowadays. Would it be possible to use something like the S3 chip used for a lot >of PC graphic accelerator cards which handles a lot of the functions itself - >freeing the CPU. (Actually this would probably prove to expensive as a >standard part - but it might be possible as an add on) > A much better solution comes to mind... working on the feasibility (price-wise) of it now... hold your breath ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:36:08 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961104102947.0090a138@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 10:29:47 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS: Seperate list... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 559 Lines: 16 At 01:52 PM 11/1/96 -0500, you wrote: >Would it be better to appoint some mug (sorry some nice helpful person) to >take in each days mailings (by direct email, not via the list), consolidate >them into one and the mail it out to a list of people who want it. This could >avoid lots of duplications. > >And no, I can't do it myself. At some point over the next couple of days, I'm going to write a JAVA application to do just that, and also to handle multiple mailing lists (with crossposting, threading, et al). I'm not promising anything though... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:36:12 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611040854.IAA15297@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Samson [SAM 2 PC] To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:54:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <847069370.8624.0@error.demon.co.uk> from "Dean Liversidge" at Nov 4, 96 01:01:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1672 Lines: 39 > > > One idea that i had quite a while ago, before the idea of Samson, was > to interface the main Sam circuit board expansion bus to the > expansion bus or a fast Parallel I/O bus(es) so that the sam can get > access to all the requird /cheap/ PC hardware such as IDE intefaced, > Keyboard, video cards, CD's. > This in my plan would invole a basic PC - case ^ psu, cheap 3/486 > motherboard, 1 meg or so memory, hard & floppy drive, plus 1 > interconnection card to the SAM, with on board boot rom. > The Sam could then request information from the PC, ie read x number > of disk sectors/files which would be buffered in the PC memory, then > transfered by the I/O card to the Sam, and Video memory or commands > sent to the PC from the Sam, in effect true parallel proccesing. With > the program in Rom on the PC controlling all the I/O on the PC from > whichever commands it was given, also alowing expandability for new > hardware, video grabbers, scanners, TV tuners, you name it ..., just > by adding the hardware and upgrading the Rom (EEPROM). > The communication between machines would be very simialr to the > Spectrum/Microdrive style hook codes.?? > > I think that this would then bring together almost all the problems > of creating new hardware, > > This could be achived in a very short time scale (so why havn't I > got around to doing it yet ???? ;-) ) > > With a larger towe case, both PC unit and Sam mainboard could be > mounted in one case, with a bit of bracketing here and there :) > > What does anyone think about that. I don't want a slave PC I want a SAM! > -- > Dean Liversidge Numb. From imc Mon Nov 4 10:45:56 1996 Subject: Re: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:45:56 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <847069362.8602.0@error.demon.co.uk> from "Dean Liversidge" at Nov 4, 96 01:01:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 802 Lines: 22 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:01:22 +0000, Dean Liversidge said: > nor do i think it could cope with the > amount of graphics, especialy animation, used in the majority on high > quality web pages Um, actually a "high quality" web page does _not_ have excessive amounts of graphics and uses animation scarcely if at all... > > One more thing, can we have a mouse and an external keyboard socket > > as standard with the SAMson please? > That is a must I think, I like the PC type keyboard, layout is > perfect. PC layout is OK (just make sure the Control key is next to the A, not the Caps lock key! And put Edit out of the way so you don't press it accidentally instead of shift...). The Sam keyboard has a lot of mistakes, for example the locations of "=" and "+". imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:05 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:27 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104054326_1747347353@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Damnation Dalmation Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 393 Lines: 13 In a message dated 03/11/96 16:23:25, you write: >> Oh no.. I've had to much beer to carry on writing... but if anyone wants >> further info, I'm here to give details. Reason for beer.. I've found out >I'm >> gonna be a dad again (at the silly age of 37)! :))) > > Congrats in order by the sound of it young man (well I am the other side of the big 40 so I can call you young[grin]). Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:20 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:39 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104054339_1813638425@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: EMail Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 458 Lines: 15 In a message dated 03/11/96 18:36:33, you write: >> > >> > >> Did anyone else get a blank message from MR P R WALKER entitled EMail? >> Numb. > >Yep, and I have had one or two others in the past from various people >which were blank...*cue spooky music* OY! BOB! You aren't censoring >these somehow are you? *grin* Nop, can I call in Agent Scully to investigate - she can use my computer for the task - could take her several days..... Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:20 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:39 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104054338_1780901657@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - CLI IS basic! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 810 Lines: 20 In a message dated 03/11/96 18:30:21, you write: >SAM basic is one of our most powerfull tools (and it has already been >written!). >We need a comprehensive list of the modifications we need to make to the >DOS syntax to make it more consistant. > >I often have trouble remembering what machine I am using when faced with a >prompt (seriously!) I always manage to type ls first in MSdos and dir >first in UNIX! How about making SBDos (SamBasicDos!) support either! > I did start writing a list of amendments to SAM Basic/DOS a long time ago. The idea was to bring them into a more consistant structure where there was a simpler set of rules to govern the syntax (without removing any of the power of the Basic). To do this would make the code for systax checking smaller. I would welcome any ideas. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:31 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:42 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104054340_1847192857@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 984 Lines: 26 In a message dated 03/11/96 21:11:30, you write: >You can't really think it'll be that easy, do you?!! >Parallel processing is a very complex issue tying up >the time of thousands of research groups around the world - and >they have enough trouble getting results using devices designed >for easy parallel processing, not z80s! No, this would not be 'parallel' processing. It is a case of one independent processor, with its own memory, clock, ROM/SRAM ect. Taking instructions from another processor via a buffer chip. They could even be two different computers on a network. Looks like a wonderful idea to me. > >There would still be the problem of several z80s sharing >the same memory, which isn't easy to resolve without lots >of hardware. > >What about what I suggested of having the existing SAM as >a glorified i/o device with graphics facilities, *and* letting >the new CPU access video ram directly?! In this proposal you have almost the same thing Andy. > >-Andy Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:34 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:42 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104054341_1880747161@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1702 Lines: 51 In a message dated 03/11/96 23:44:11, you write: >I think we'd all agree that the new SAM has to be able to run existing >SAM software, and that means that there has to be a z80 in the box >somewhere - but it doesn't mean the z80 has to be the main processor. A valid point. > >Does the SAMson *have* to use the ASIC? We know there's quite a >lot of them in stock, but it is the ASIC that is really restricting >the design - the fact that it is limited to 6MHz and implements >a nasty paging structure is the problem. Does the SAMson have >to use the existing stocks? Yes, and no, but it would be good if it could. Reason? As I said before, VLSI will work on a new ASIC provided that a reasonable proportion of the exisitng stock is purchased first (understandable). As you can see, a new machine that does not use the ASIC (at least for somethings) will put off by a long time the day when a new ASIC can be done. > >Since Bob's the man with the cash :-) how about he gives us a very >definite list of what the SAMson must be able to do (other than >run the majority of SAM software). For example: Me, CASH!!! If you saw the bank balance you wouldn't say that. > >* must it use the asic? See above. >* does it have to be possible to plug in SAM peripherals? Yes, those that are not included within its guts. But a twister board would not be out of the question if we want to re-arrange the pins into a 96 way connector. >* does the disc format have to be the same as now? No. But there must be routines to read/write SAM format discs. >* does it have to be able to drive a tv? No. I consider that not to be desirable. Although it would be a advantage if it could be done. > >-Andy > > > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:37 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:45 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104054343_1947856025@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1258 Lines: 29 In a message dated 04/11/96 01:06:25, you write: >What the hell are you on about, you dont have to READ anything >different to any other GUI, with win95, its is exactly as you discribe a >GUI, but it is also so much more, if you want it to be. > Win95 is not a GUI. It is a Menu/Pointer system that just happens to have a partial GUI bolted on the front. Win 3.1 was nearer a GUI dispite its faults. And I'm not talking about the internal workings of programs, just the war the desktop is handled. Give me program manager anyday. >And menu bars are a good and usefull step inbetween CLI and GUI. >It makes work easier, with less overhead or screen usage that icons >only, which can often hinder a usefull program, icons are often used >as an extra to the menu selections in programs, for the most used >menu items etc. > >So what have you got againt Win95 then Bob, is it anything like when >you said you disliked the internet in Format when you first used it, >where now you are using it quite a lot it seems I don't use the internet much, I find it slow, clumbersome and in the case of the WWW very frustrating. I have taken to Electronic Mail - but that was around long before the internet, and will be long after the internet is gone. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:57 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:43 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104054342_1914301593@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 444 Lines: 15 In a message dated 04/11/96 01:05:39, you write: >> As long as noone tries to make it look and work like the dreaded >> Win95. >> Bob. > >Sorry, but in my option that would be exactly how it should be, for >anyone whose used it properly, i'm sure they agree it is a beter >system, than any of the previous version, maybe not perfect but what >is?? Win95 is very difficult to call a GUI because of the extensive use of the Menu Bar. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:58 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:45 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961104054344_1981410457@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: CLI or GUI : a thesis (!) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 672 Lines: 19 In a message dated 04/11/96 01:06:25, you write: >A proper GUI should enable be able to run all the CLI programs >exactly as they were designed, but just giving acces to running them >from within a graphical enviroment, obviously it has advantages of >being able to run the graphical sytle application specificaly >designed for it. >Any new hardware should be accesable from the CLI or the GUI, it >only required the approprate software to drive the hardware. > >A good GUI should be able to run a CLI program, then when the program >is terminated correctly, restore the GUI environment to how it was >before the CLI program was called. > > Very well put. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 10:57:58 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:48:33 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam-users Subject: The doesn't-have-to-be-8-bit SAMSON In-Reply-To: <961103164149_1747275348@emout08.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3297 Lines: 64 On Sun, 3 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 03/11/96 11:55:57, you write: > >Don't be daft. Why does the SAM have more memory than a Speccy? > >To make a more useful computer. > > Because RAM got cheaper. And why did RAM get cheaper? Because sales increased, and that was because everybody needed more of it. Are you seriously suggesting that anything useful could have been done with a 48K Sam? The screen would take up half of all available memory! Why are Sam programs nearly all 512K only now? It isn't because we lazy programmers are letting our code get bigger simply because we can; the code is bigger because it simply cannot be made smaller (or at least not without compromising on features) > >Why is everyone getting so upset if we try to extend this > >trend to the CPU?!! > > > I don't think everyone is upset. But we do have to be realistic. And a SAMSON > that is BASED on anything other than a Z80 will be very difficult to make > compatible with the SAM - and we MUST NOT throw compatibility out the window. > OK, I'm not saying 100% compatible, but as close as we can get in the while > working within a budget. Wrong, a SamSon based on a Z380 *will* be compatible with the Z80B, and thus compatible with the Sam, depending on the exact design of the expansions. The Z380 is a Z80 compatible 16-bit processor, with all sorts of nice features such as internal pipelining (extremely fast memory access for instructions etc) extended instruction set (things like multiplication, which currently on a Z80B takes a few hundred cycles to do) and has a fast clock speed. Thus it will probably be faster and most likely EASIER to program, so all this software might actually get written. The Z380 has a large (and I mean large) accessible address space. It would probably be very easy to attach a meg or two to the new CPU, with no need for any awkward paging system. For new programs, external memory can act as dedicated program memory which will always be running at absolutely full speed. Meanwhile, the 512K RAM inside the current Sam could be used specifically as video memory, and only when this particular section is written to or read from would the processor have to be slowed down. Looking further ahead, the new video cards can use up to 512K of video memory still without having to slow down the programs. NB I don't think we should be too ambitious about this - I still want to be able to attach my Sam to a TV. 256 colours in 512*384 should be perfectly adequate. It would be possible to emulate the current paging system in the bottom of the address space, so that older software could run (on the new chip) at slightly improved speed. However, if that made the interface very much more expensive, I guess it isn't quite so important - you can still unplug the box to run all your old software, or have it disableable via a software switch. The good part is that the interface has already been designed and prototyped (with a fast Z80, not a Z380 - some changes would obviously need to be made to the interface , but I wouldn't advocate taking "half a step forward" of using a faster but still inconvenirnt processor) so this project would probably take less time to be completed than any of the other ideas so far mentioned. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:05:29 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611040916.JAA15328@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:16:20 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611032159.VAA12867@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 3, 96 09:59:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3465 Lines: 84 > >> All you need to do is pass a short(ish) string of bytes through a FIFO > >> buffer to the slave processor which would then carry out the command. > For > >> example:- > >> > >> SCROLL (screen number, direction, number of pixels) > >> DEF SPRITE (sprite number, size, data bytes) > >> MOVE SPRITE (sprite number, direction, number of pixels (other > controls)) > >> > > > >You are suggesting a dedicated processor for the graphics with a limited > >range of commands. It would be much more interesting to have a good all > >round graphics procssor (such as a Z80 or two). That way we need not limit > > >it to such simple opperations, we could give them programs in their own > >memory to draw polygons, or spheres aswell as simple scrolling. > >PC graphics cards use the techniques you are describing -dedicated > >hardware for everything, this works out very expensive and not very > >pleasant to use. > > > Methinks thats what the original mailing was talking about. Reread the > posting and I think you will see. > If it wasn't then I agree with you, and this is where a different processor > could come in for starters. > The original mail suggested a slave processor with a limited number of built in commands. I suggested a mini (Z80 based) computer, which could be given its own programs in its own section of memory which it could run to (in-effect) have an unlimited range of commands e.g scroll the screen using an ldir or a series of ldi's, a short polygon filling program etc. If we go for the limited macros circuit we will always be limited by the operations we deem to be important now as opposed to the infinate programming possibilites of a Z80. Surpose we go for an extremly expensive hardware polygon filling graphics card using the strategy suggested in the original posting: (not very likely but a possibility in a few years for the upper end of the market), a few years later we may find that 3D games based on texture mapped ovals are much more popular (this is the way I predict the fasion will go). At this point we will have to build another card to handle this (if we try to keep up to date). If you go for the Z80 approach we need only change the software! I then got a bit carried away and suggested a whole parralel structure to avoid the loss of a good Z80 circuit when the screen RESOLUTION/COLOURS are to be upgraded: > >If we set up our extendend archetecture as a parrallel processing device > >the programmer could allocate the number of proccesors required for each > task, > >there is no need to have any chips on a graphics board other than thoes > >requred to send the graphics memory to the screen in the desired mannor. > >The programmer would know how many Z80s there are on the particular > machine > >so could allocate any number of these (which are all located on the main > >board) to do any job in the program. > > > > > >If the programmer wants full screen scrolling he could allocate an > >accelerated Z80 to do it. > > > >If the programmer wants polygon graphics he could allocated a couple of > >accelerated Z80s to do it. > > > Could get very confusing. But it is worth looking at. > > > >> Samsboss > >> The One And Only > > > > > >Why constain our selfs to a few instructions, if you are suggesting a > >parallel graphics processor why not make it programable? > > > >Numb. > Samsboss > The One And Only Different enough!? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:05:30 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:51:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) In-Reply-To: <847069361.8601.0@error.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 556 Lines: 18 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Dean Liversidge wrote: > > As long as noone tries to make it look and work like the dreaded > > Win95. > > Bob. > > Sorry, but in my option that would be exactly how it should be, for > anyone whose used it properly, i'm sure they agree it is a beter > system, than any of the previous version, maybe not perfect but what > is?? X-Windows is pretty damn perfect, and certainly much better than s***dows '95 (Or any of it's lesser relatives ..) All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:16:25 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611040925.JAA15340@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:25:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961104054341_1880747161@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 4, 96 05:43:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 792 Lines: 18 > >Does the SAMson *have* to use the ASIC? We know there's quite a > >lot of them in stock, but it is the ASIC that is really restricting > >the design - the fact that it is limited to 6MHz and implements > >a nasty paging structure is the problem. Does the SAMson have > >to use the existing stocks? > > Yes, and no, but it would be good if it could. Reason? As I said before, VLSI > will work on a new ASIC provided that a reasonable proportion of the exisitng > stock is purchased first (understandable). As you can see, a new machine that > does not use the ASIC (at least for somethings) will put off by a long time > the day when a new ASIC can be done. > > In that case, how many old Sam manuals are left? -how much can we change the Sam Basic dos syntax?!!! *smirk* Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:16:25 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:58:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras In-Reply-To: <199611040916.JAA15328@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 423 Lines: 14 On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, SL Harding wrote: > market), a few years later we may find that 3D games based on texture mapped > ovals are much more popular (this is the way I predict the fasion will go). I'm sure ovals are 2D, I presume you mean ovoids ... (I'm not even sure this is right but what the hell ..!) Sorry, I'm feeling bitchy ... All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:16:25 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:00:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Spectrum? In-Reply-To: <96110112474232@morse.ntu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 273 Lines: 11 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, ALLAN CLARKSON wrote: > While we know that the Speccy is a good machine, most people think 'Horace > Goes Skiing' - full stop. Top game, howzabout a 3d version ...? All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... Lee. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:22:00 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611040932.JAA15351@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:32:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee" at Nov 4, 96 10:58:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 508 Lines: 20 > > On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, SL Harding wrote: > > > market), a few years later we may find that 3D games based on texture mapped > > ovals are much more popular (this is the way I predict the fasion will go). > > I'm sure ovals are 2D, I presume you mean ovoids ... (I'm not even sure > this is right but what the hell ..!) > I haven't decided yet! You know what I mean! ;o) > Sorry, I'm feeling bitchy ... > > All in my humble opinion folks, so don't get _too_ aggro if I've offended ... > > Lee. > > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:31:38 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <1285.199611041115@pork.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:15:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961104054342_1914301593@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 4, 96 05:43:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 296 Lines: 8 > Win95 is very difficult to call a GUI because of the extensive use of the > Menu Bar. How so? It's graphic, it's an interface between the user and the internal gubbins, therefore it's a Graphical User Interface. For what it's worth, I'd rather have a command line anyday anyway. Much faster. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:31:52 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <1310.199611041120@pork.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS - CLI IS basic! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:20:20 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961104054338_1780901657@emout02.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 4, 96 05:43:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 207 Lines: 6 > I did start writing a list of amendments to SAM Basic/DOS a long time ago. > I would welcome any ideas. If you/we can base it on 4DOS (for MS-DOS, OS/2, etc) then that would be a hell of a good start... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:34:53 1996 Message-Id: <199611041122.MAA17936@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: SimCoupe update, C Compilers To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 96 12:22:04 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3708 Lines: 66 Hi Guys and Gals In a weekend spent dodging rockets, emptying water out of my garage, and general tidying up I managed to sit down and do some work on SimCoupe. As I'm getting more confident with 80x86 assembly I desided to have a go at rewriting parts of the z80 kernel. Luckily gcc's extended asm allows me to code assembly versions for x86 machines and still have the option of compiling in the C versions for everyone else. The feature of x86 which gives the cpu an advantage for z80 emulation is that they (almost) share the same flag structure - this means I can use the equivalent x86 intstruction and get most of the flag responses correct :) So far I've done all the 8bit inc,dec,add,sub,adc,sbc,and,or,xor instructions. Shift, rotate and bit intstructions will come next. Although they are seldom used I will probably do neg,cpl etc; and can't resist DAA - nasty to emulate but the same instruction in x86 (a hang over from 8080). I've also replaced part of the memory io with assembly. All in all this does provide a speedup, but not as much as you might think. It turns out that the C compiler and optimiser is really good at producing assembly from C - looking at non specialist code like the memory stuff, I was hard pressed to do the same operation in hand coded asm with one or two less instructions! On the subject of a possible C compiler for the SAM, I had a good look around, posted to a couple of newsgroups and mailed the authors of several compilers. From the responce, things don't look to good. There are no known public ansi C compilers that have a z80 backend. The only compiler with a z80 generator is small C - of which I now have the z80 version. Hitech do produce a free version of their compiler for CP/M, and do a comersial cross compiler for UNIX and DOS - is this the one Nev uses? It would appear that the z80 based machines were out of favour before the first FSF type compilers were written. However if someone has the skill and time it would probably be possible to write a backend for one of the smaller compilers, perhaps lcc, bcc, or c68/c386 (the one used on the QL). Finally I woul dlike to have my 0.02$ on the 8/32bit issue. Frode hit the nail on the head; its not the size of the bus that matters, its that fact that a 32bit chip can address more memory. The 64K limit on the SAM is really restrictive for something like a C compiler. What happens when you want to malloc() a large area of memory? DOS you might say is also restricted to a (relatively) small amount of memory. But the x86 does have the advantage of segmentation in real mode, which does get around some of the difficulties. Of course when >386 PC is running a proper 32bit operating system in protected mode things are a lot easier. A 32 bit processor with an 8 bit bus has been done before on the QL, OK it does slow things down, but the memory access problems drop away. If you forget the graphics and sound, even a 1983 QL is a far superior machine to the SAM in a programmers point of view. Allan -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 11:34:53 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <1342.199611041126@pork.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: EMail To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:26:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611031832.SAA11821@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 3, 96 06:32:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 231 Lines: 8 > > > > > > Did anyone else get a blank message from MR P R WALKER entitled EMail? > Numb. Oops... it was supposed to be the explaination behind the reason I got a backlog of 200+ messages this morning. :) Never mind. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:06:56 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:48:09 GMT+0 Subject: SOS: Speccy trhings Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <124D4926E48@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1075 Lines: 28 Hello, > > quite confident that the new SAMs being sold at the moment > > are going to people who read Format and have Spectrum and > > disciple/plus-d set-ups. > > I'm sorry but I fail to see how mentioning that the SAMson could run > the same old software, that current Speccy owners can already run, > could be beneficial. Speccy owners have, by shunning the SAM, proed that they are not willing to upgrade. And by now, most people who own Spectrums have them as a second machine, with the first being either a console or a PC. As previously mentioned, every computer under the sun can now run Speccy games also. > selling point "it can run old Spectrum software!", you are > practically throwing away the mass-market potential of the machine. > If a massive 25% of those 500-1000 Format readers you mentioned, > bought a SAMson that's about 200 SAMsons sold...Oh dear... > > Gavin Smith > Perhaps it would be better to sell the SAMSon on the basis of SAM Coupe compatibility :))))) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:32:14 1996 Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:36:08 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611041136.AA29620@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Graphic extras X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1624 Lines: 33 > The original mail suggested a slave processor with a limited number of built in > commands. > I suggested a mini (Z80 based) computer, which could be given its own programs > in its own section of memory which it could run to (in-effect) have an unlimited > range of commands e.g scroll the screen using an ldir or a series of ldi's, a > short polygon filling program etc. If we go for the limited macros circuit > we will always be limited by the operations we deem to be important now as > opposed to the infinate programming possibilites of a Z80. > I don't mean to be fatalistic or anything, but a Z80 at 6Mhz trying to move aroundt one meg of screen memory will be sloooow (around one fram every 2.7962026 seconds). If you want a CPU to handle screen-shuffling, you need something faster - a lot faster! Not only that, the resolution will also be determined by on-board hardware (well, not necessarily, but it will be properitary chippery anyyway). > > Surpose we go for an extremly expensive hardware polygon filling graphics card > using the strategy suggested in the original posting: > (not very likely but a possibility in a few years for the upper end of the > market), a few years later we may find that 3D games based on texture mapped > ovals are much more popular (this is the way I predict the fasion will go). > At this point we will have to build another card to handle this (if we try to > keep up to date). If you go for the Z80 approach we need only change the > software! You get state of the art graphics card for the PC at sub 200 punds. That's why I propose the SAM-on-ISA idea. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:32:14 1996 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sam-less In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 02 Nov 1996 12:14:15 EST." <961102121415_1880549963@emout11.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 11:44:48 +0000 Message-Id: <713.847107888@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Matt Williams Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 377 Lines: 10 Thanks for the info - Do you have contact details for WCC? ------------------------------------------------------------------ * |\ /| | \ / * Matt Williams, 19 Northbrook Rd* * | \/ | | \ /\ / * Bounds Green, London, N22 4YQ * * | | \_/ \/ \/ * Insanity is a virtue... * http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/students/M.Williams/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:32:14 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 11:57:04 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Fred 74 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 267 Lines: 10 I got Fred 74 through my door on Saturday.... Is anybody else having problems running the RGB demo? The problem lies in the 'RGB CODE4' (or whatever) file which I presume is imploded since it loads, hangs around for about 8 seconds and then neatly resets :( Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:32:32 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <1383.199611041141@pork.csv.warwick.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:41:22 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 416 Lines: 9 If anyone wants to do a search for TASM (not the borland one), that's a table driven cross assembler which already has the Z80 code in it. It would need changing for the Sam, but it's got to be better than starting from scratch (and you can redefine the syntax in the definition file, so all you'd have to do is add another file for SamSon as you work, and...) 'tis a shareware program, which is even better. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:32:32 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <1401.199611041146@pork.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:46:19 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199610311847_MC1-B94-4142@compuserve.com> from "Thomas Harte" at Oct 31, 96 06:47:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 650 Lines: 13 > As I am now becoming bored of suggesting, I think we should make our killer > app a web browser & office package (word processor, spreadsheet, etc.) for Office package, maybe. I can't really see that you need a web browser for Sam - quite apart from the fact that I don't think it has the "power" which you seem to need for web viewing, I would also guess that most Sam users don't have modems... > maintaining a good CLI for serious users, making it an actual home computer > aswell, then I cannot see how the SAMson could fail with the mass market. Easily. It's not intel, it doesn't run MS software, and so most people won't even look at it. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:48:22 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:54:33 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SMIDIP Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <124F2E52FDD@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 641 Lines: 15 Hello, > PS. Sorry to those members on this list who have no interest in my SAM MIDI > projects. I was going to send this email directly to James but a couple of > other people on here seemed interested. when I first mentioned it. I know > it's not in the same league as SAMson (My relatives have that surname!), > but at least I'm contributing in the ways that I can! > No, please keep the list up-to-date as I'm on the lookout for something more for my MIDI keyboard. > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:48:26 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611041038.KAA15629@marsh.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The doesn't-have-to-be-8-bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:38:22 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 4, 96 10:48:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1257 Lines: 30 > > > On Sun, 3 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 03/11/96 11:55:57, you write: > > > >Don't be daft. Why does the SAM have more memory than a Speccy? > > >To make a more useful computer. > > > > Because RAM got cheaper. > > And why did RAM get cheaper? Because sales increased, and that was because > everybody needed more of it. Are you seriously suggesting that anything > useful could have been done with a 48K Sam? The screen would take up half > of all available memory! Why are Sam programs nearly all 512K only now? It > isn't because we lazy programmers are letting our code get bigger simply > because we can; the code is bigger because it simply cannot be made > smaller (or at least not without compromising on features) > I think it IS because we are becoming lazy programmers. We must be very carefull when we become SuperSam programmers as we will have more speed and memory to waste. We should design our GUI to place faily stringent timeslicing and memory with- stictions on its applications else we will never multitask and head off down a never ending spiral of doom and destruction that will eventually kill us all... Or then again maybe not. Numb. (c) pointless yet almost valid comment inc. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:48:26 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:35:48 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Kaleidoscope interface. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <938AD02C6A@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 993 Lines: 20 > Oh yes, one more thing. Does anyone have any comments to make of the > Kaleidoscope interface? Not a lot were sold but was it a good idea or not. Oh, the Kaleidoscope interface. I remember it well. "This is revoloutionary!" I thought, when I discovered that this wonderous device was to be released. And so the big day arrived, and the said interface arrived at my door. And so, I plugged it in, fired up the demonstration disk, and wow! Several streaky colour bars appeared on my screen. "Is this thing working?!" was my next reaction.. It was. "Well, that's doing a bloody lot isn't it?!". But what was this?! Hope was not lost for "Lots of Kaleidoscope software will be released.". (Or words to that general affect.) "Okay, great!" I thought, and sat back. "SAMco won't let me down.". and they didn't.. Oh, hang on, yes they bloody well did!! How much did I spend on that damn thing.. Arghhhh! Foolish, James. Foolish. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:48:38 1996 Message-Id: <327E5318.4190@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 12:33:28 -0800 From: MR P R WALKER Organization: Computing Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: *Off* the warpath for a change - Repl - Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 335 Lines: 11 Dan Doore wrote: > Hum, I'm not rubbishing the program or anything I was just saying > that there is a similar program on NVG. Fair enough - apologies for getting touchy... ;) > This was mainly in the context of Frode's concern over file formats > and just thought I'd mention it. No real format to speak of, it's just raw data. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 4 12:48:39 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:40:51 GMT+0 Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <125A36D39BE@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1458 Lines: 34 Hello, > There is one way out of this 'hole of perception' that I can see... > That same man in the street has all ready been 'programmed' that > parallel processing is the way of the future! -this 'buzzword' could carry > us on! True, but sadly it takes a lot of money to get buzzwords into peoples heads. We are fighting an uphill struggle here - we could have the most fantastic machine in the world and still not convince any retailers to reccomend SAMSon over an IBM compat. I think that, initially, we should build the machine for the SAM users, and any other interested parties, and then, and only then, try and sell the idea to the great British public. My only fear is that, as the industry is moving so quickly towards biggerbetterfastermore computers, our design may be outdated by the time it reaches fruition - not because it can't keep up with the latest technology but purely because the industry will be promoting something which may only be an earlier model with a couple of whistles and bells as 'the next big thing'. If we ignore the commercial aspect (and this is going back on something I argued a while ago) for a while until the machine is built and software is written we can tackle it when we feel the machine is ready to stand on it's own two feet. Would it be possible to write a PC emulator on which SAMSon software could be developed? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine"