From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:36:07 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:06:30 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Ian Collier Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 736 Lines: 29 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 21:40:09 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > It's sensible to have one byte each for R, G and B. I suppose to save memory > you could make them 5 bits and have a 15-bit display, but 16 doesn't divide > by 3! :-) Seven doesn't divide by three either. Perhaps the sixteenth bit could stand for bright, in the same way that bit3 works in the CLUT at the moment. Personally though, I'd much rather address one pixel as no more than one byte - particularly if we might get left still with an 8-bit processor. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:36:08 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:06:51 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Ian Collier Subject: Samson: CPU and (Tv)u(TV') (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4771 Lines: 114 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 22:47:45 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Samson: CPU and (Tv)u(TV') On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:18:26 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > > All the > > other undocumented codes are repetitions of existing instructions, or > > slower than usual instructions. > > Not. SLL is neither of these (allegedly the reason why it's undocumented > is because it was supposed to be the same as SLA but in fact it puts a 1 > on the end instead of a 0). The "LD E,SET 5,(IX+2)" instructions are no > slower than the "SET 5,(IX+2)" instructions and, though it's hard to see > any particular use for these instructions, they are not repetitions of > existing instructions. Errr, that wasn't such a good example, since those two instructions don't do the same thing. Anyway LD A,(IX+n) RRA is four t-states faster than LD A,RR A,(IX+n) during screen display. Okay, that was a slightly special case; Nevertheless, all of these ARE repetitions in the sense that exactly the same effect can be achieved via a sequence of documented instructions. I know a lot of people are unaware of them, and they are not accepted by Comet except by using DEFB. I doubt that they are in widespread use. SLL is the one real exception, I'll have to check whether the Z380 accepts it or not. > > The time instructions take to process is irrelavent - because > > a) They already don't all take the same time on a Z80B > > b) The only routines which rely heavily on these sorts of timings are > > border scrollies in demos. > > See also: sample players and beepers. These are also of somewhat limited > use on the accelerated machine, but you do want the beeper to give out > an approximate representation of the sound if you are playing spectrum > games. But spectrum beeping sounds awful even on the Z80B now. Is this not taking back-compatability a little too far? Almost all Sam games use the sound chip, not the beeper. Fortunately, that is unrelated to processor speed. As for sample playes, I'm sure that many will be (re)written for Samson. However, for the ones used in existing programs, it is still true that most are already synchronised by Line and frame *interrupts*. Okay, the border area runs too fast and is followed by a short gap - it would sound terrible, but would at least be an approximate representation. You might note that nobody has ever really known *exactly* how fast the Sam's Z80B goes, until David Z wrote his list for MNEMOtech, and you wrote the Z-States program to correct it. The list has since been published in issue 2 of BOAI. * * The majority of software will benefit from running faster. * * > Didn't I also hear you going on about a GUI? A windowing system on a TV > is a joke. You need at least 768x512 for a decent windowing system. No > one's going to buy a computer on the strength of a windowing system that > runs in 4 colours on 512x192! Who said that? I said 256 colours (perhaps from a larger palette), with resolution at 512*384. Could even increase that a bit further by getting rid of the border, but then I like the idea of x-res to be a power of two (MUCH easier to program on the Z80, though Z380 has built in multiplication so who knows? Does anyone know how long the multipy and divide instructions take?) By NOT going overboard on the screen, we allow software to actually run. And yes, it is also true that I said processing needed to come first - though the GUI probably arrives only after the screen improvements. > > If the boards don't use the ASIC, then why do we need a next one? Thankyou Bob for your sensible answer, but I'll just explain the question again to my brother; this list does tend to move rather quickly. > Huh? You might as well ask: if the new CPU isn't going to be a Z80B then > why do we need a Z380? Rubbish! We cannot have a new ASIC made for this generation of boards. So if they use an ASIC at all, it will need to be the old one. If the boards *don't use* the ASIC, and can manage without, why should it be used in SamSon? If they require only the old ASIC, why do we need a rehashed one in SamSon? Why should we use the ASIC, merely to get another one - which we don't need - designed? In fact, says the man, a new ASIC _may_ be used in SamSonSon (perhaps this is looking a little too far into the future? Surely that project will only go ahead if SamSon enjoys moderate commercial success, in which case we probably don't need to convince VLSI. I guess the official line should be "use the ASIC if it helps") Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:36:12 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <27615.199611061405@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:05:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "James R Curry" at Nov 5, 96 05:22:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 538 Lines: 12 > I think the key words here are "AS LITTLE writing as possible.". > Okay, you'd have to have a LITTLE text with the icons, but most of > the time it wouldn't needed. Oddly enough, that's what I thought as well. However, Windows (and OS/2) /do/ only have small amounts of writing, usually just the name of the program. For example, Vista-eXceed/W is in the bottom left. I don't consider that excessive, do you? Yet that's the longest name on these things, or at least the longest I've /found/. (Not necessarily the same thing :) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:36:13 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <27815.199611061407@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Hello. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:07:06 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611051717.AA02392@booth20.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 5, 96 05:17:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 383 Lines: 7 > And incidentally it seems that this week's winner is Paul Walker, whose > computer thinks it is living in California so his mails always float to the > bottom of the display... Who? What? When...? If you're talking about time, I think the mails are stamped by the unix system as it sends them - certainly I have no control over it. If you're not, then what are you talking about? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:36:15 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <28207.199611061410@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:10:05 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961105115123_1282313164@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 5, 96 11:51:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 429 Lines: 8 > Each has its own icon. Amipro, Galaxy, Write and WordPro. Fine, fine. Only I stand by that, without at least the name of the program, you'd have a hell of a job remembered what program was what - maybe what it did would be in the icon, but the fine details wouldn't. The Windows Applications group here has 26 icons in it, with a fair number of similar programs... Ahem. I think we've strayed somewhat from the topic here... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:36:15 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611061411.OAA02693@caligula.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS interupts To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:11:51 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611051742.AA02606@booth20.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 5, 96 05:42:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1406 Lines: 36 > > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:56:10 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > > If we move the current graphics modes to where they can be handled and > > displayed with the new graphics circuit, palette line interupts > > might be disk drive stable. That will be nice too. > > Um, if you are using new graphics circuits you won't need palette line > interrupts! > > imc > True, but we will use the old modes for some things even if it is when emulating the old machine. I figured that as we will generate the new modes on the new graphics card we will probably put the monitor connector on the new board. We may as well use the hardware on the new board to generate the old modes too as otherwise there would be a botch job to move the output from the old screen generator to the new card where it could be sent to the monitor if required. In this case the new card would have to implement line interupts. But there again we may choose to go for the 'botch' output version as the old modes (for compatibility) will have to reside in the old memory pages and we may limit the graphics processor to only use the new (possibly faster) memory to make it easier to design and build. COOL! If we keep the old screens scart port running off just the old modes and a new port on the graphics card running either the old or the new modes we could drive 2 screens at once! An old one and a new one! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:41:04 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961106143213.009262a0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 14:32:13 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1068 Lines: 25 At 11:51 AM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >In stage two, I still think the best course would be to leave the Z80B as the >master processor, the Z380 (or another chip) can then run new SAMSON software >under its own control and use the Z80 for some of the i/o workload. Add a >dedicated graphics board to lower the overhead on the Z380 and the machine >will be FFFAAASSSTTT. Sorry to burst bubbles here, but people across the board keep making this mistake, so I'll try and sort it out once and for all. Parallel processing on the SAM is not an option. Not unless you want complicated, software-driven handshaking in there, or if you want to add about 100 UKP to the cost (for which price you may as well redesign the motherboard from scratch and have the Z80B as a peripheral controller). The memory system gets in the way. It's the same problem with DMA if you want to be able to access memory outside of the SAM's paging structure. Martin, Bruce and I have all discussed this at length (well, me and Martin, and me and Bruce at different times). Sorry guys Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:41:10 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961106143211.009240e0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 14:32:11 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 348 Lines: 11 At 05:59 PM 11/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >What is "16 bit real colour"? 16 bit color is: 6bits green, 5 bits red, 5 bits blue -- or 6 bits green, 6 bits red, 4 bits blue. Depends on your priority (ie whether you think the eye's increased sensitivity to green-based colors is more important than its decreased sensitivity to blue-based ones). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:41:12 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:32:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Circles & Displays (for some reason was Re: SAMSON Keyboard.) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 954 Lines: 19 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:59:17 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > DON'T make the circles slightly thinner - I've got my TV bodged so > > that it stretches the pictures especially to make SAMs circles > > *ROUND*. I'd be back where I started. Unless, I'm the only one who's > > done this. But those ellipsoidal circles really get my goar > Um... how many Sam users haven't done this to their TV? How many have Well I've done this to my monitor, what annoys me is all the demos with scrollers outside the screen area, since I've got the display as large as possible, I don't see all of the scroll, just the bottom few lines. Now there's a question for SamSON, will the display fit the "whole" screen? Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:41:25 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961106143212.00928448@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 14:32:12 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS flash memory switch Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 620 Lines: 20 At 11:51 AM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >Status: > >In a message dated 05/11/96 11:48:46, you write: > >>They may like it for novelty value! >>O.K. why not put the switch in an inconspicuous place in the front of the >>case. >>All PC cases I know have a key opperated swich in the front of the cover >>to disable the keyboard -why not use this? >> >Wonderful idea. Go to the top of the class. Now why didn't I think of that >(grin). Be warned - it's not a clean switch at all. You'll need a hell of a lot of debouncing on it. Or better - make sure people only do the switching with the machine turned off... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:41:41 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:37:17 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611061437.AA01751@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Back on-line X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 53 Lines: 3 OK folks, I looks like we are back on line. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 14:49:59 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961106144043.0093d79c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 14:40:43 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? (fwd) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1638 Lines: 34 At 11:06 PM 11/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >Oh yes? Well, wouldn't a faster processor help then? There are only a few >examples (on the Sam) of games which don't normally run at an even pace - >such as Gamesmaster Games: one of the variables is called "minimum frame >delay", now does that tell you anything?. Another is Lemmings, but we all >want that to be speeded up anyway. BTW, everyone: If you saw the Accelerator prototype at the show the time I brought it along, then you'll have seen Lemmings running on the SAM at ~50 frames per second. It was gorgeous. Also, you'll have heard the Megablast demo running at over twice its normal speed :) :) :) [snip] >Do you see what I'm saying? No disrespect, but the people who know most >about the limitations of the Z80B are the people who've been pushing that >chip to its limits for the last few years. Which, I hate to say it, are us >demo coders. (Note that demos aren't the only things I write now, but I do >still call myself demo coder and have no plans to change that. Perhaps I >will change my angle a bit for the new machine, coding small games whilst >working up to "the big one" - but they'll still look like demos, it hones >the art of presentation. One way to ruin a good game is to present it in a >dull way.) He's telling the truth you know, Bob. Let's put it this way: after coding demos for a couple of years, I now have a keen eye for optimisation, and know a lot of different ways of doing things. Termite, for example, would print to the screen up to 32 times slower if it wasn't for my demo coding days (and it's quite memory efficient too!!! well, sort of!) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:05:36 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:56:55 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611061456.AA01773@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 247 Lines: 7 > Ummmm.... I honestly don't know... the problem at this end is time -- ie > Martin and I don't have any (because of our respective jobs and the fact > that Martin's still rebuilding his house from scratch). My sympathies to Martin...:) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:05:45 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:57:34 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611061457.AA01776@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 270 Lines: 9 > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:00:22 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > > Oh..and the horisontal resolution is halved due to interlacing. Ah.. > > and the vertical resolution is smeared due to too-slow cathode. ;/ > > Isn't that the wrong way round? Errr...of course :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:06:03 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:58:02 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611061458.AA01779@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 889 Lines: 25 > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 12:52:45 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > > Stick to clean 8 bit _or_ 16 bit real colour. Imposing hardware limits based > > on scan-lines will only mess tings up. Another posibility is 8 bit pseudo > > colour and 24 bit palette (a 3 bytes CLUT). > > What is "16 bit real colour"? > > The only sensible arrangements I know are... > > 1. 256-element CLUT with RGB colour values for each entry (which seems to be > what you call "8 bit pseudo"), and Right. > 2. RGB colour values for each pixel. > > It's sensible to have one byte each for R, G and B. I suppose to save memory > you could make them 5 bits and have a 15-bit display, but 16 doesn't divide > by 3! :-) That was what I meant by 16 bit real colour. Somebody mentioned 16K colours, which would add up to 14 bits - what good is that? :) The 16th bit could be used for bright control. ;) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:08:00 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:03:09 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611061503.AA01786@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SIMCOUPE & DISKS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 717 Lines: 13 > Although I wish to thank everyone who has tried to help me with > Simcoupe disks, I still have not managed to load anything! The 'fdformat' > command does not exist, either on my WIN95 Pentium, or my old DOS 6.2 486. > I have tried 'format a: /n:10 /s:8' (it defaults to double sided > formatting, by the way) and it won't even format a high density that way. > As my real SAM now refuses to work for any length of time (there are days > when just pressing the a key, let alone entering an actual command, will > cause it to instantaniously reset) I am left without a working SAM. As > such, I'll ask REALLY nicely, please, someone, help me some more! What _Exactly_ are you having problems with? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:08:00 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:03:30 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611061503.AA01789@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 311 Lines: 14 > In a message dated 05/11/96 14:16:32, you write: > > >Sorry. Of course @ at Shift+2 - where was I? (But Ctrl next to A :). > >All 'extra' symbols should follow ISO-8859-X. > > > > -Frode > > Got a copy of ISO-8859-X you can let me have Frode? http://www.cs.tu-berlin.de/~czyborra/charsets/ > > Bob. > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:15:35 1996 Message-Id: <32811ACC.5733@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 15:10:04 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 330 Lines: 8 > Hurray! Now was it laughed at me when I said some kind of internet > software should be a priority? *grins* > > Gavin Smith Me, and I'm still not sure about it - but what the hell, I'm not writing the software anyway (if we ever get this /started/), so I'll wait until the end to either eat my hat or say "I told you so" :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:15:36 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611061507.PAA02902@caligula.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS parallel To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:07:46 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961106143213.009262a0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 6, 96 02:32:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2560 Lines: 57 > > At 11:51 AM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote: > >In stage two, I still think the best course would be to leave the Z80B as the > >master processor, the Z380 (or another chip) can then run new SAMSON software > >under its own control and use the Z80 for some of the i/o workload. Add a > >dedicated graphics board to lower the overhead on the Z380 and the machine > >will be FFFAAASSSTTT. > > Sorry to burst bubbles here, but people across the board keep making this > mistake, so I'll try and sort it out once and for all. > > Parallel processing on the SAM is not an option. Not unless you want > complicated, software-driven handshaking in there, or if you want to add > about 100 UKP to the cost (for which price you may as well redesign the > motherboard from scratch and have the Z80B as a peripheral controller). > > The memory system gets in the way. It's the same problem with DMA if you > want to be able to access memory outside of the SAM's paging structure. > > Martin, Bruce and I have all discussed this at length (well, me and Martin, > and me and Bruce at different times). > > Sorry guys > Lose the old memory structure! The old Z80 can be buizy zapping around in its own little world! Communicating (as rarely as possible) with the other 2 systems with I/O lines that hold the last byte put on them. Perhaps use an I/O line to generate an interupt on th new Z380. It would be best if the Z380 and the graphics processors opperate on the same memory, but this area of memory will be new and can have a completely different structure so we can design them to work together! Give priority to the grapics processor, let it lock the other chip out if wants to address an area of memory on the same bus. We have 4 Meg, why not have 4 sections, each with its own bus so the processors can work at the same time on different ones (We would miss memory contention if we had none!) If this is not possible we have to have the Z380 and the graphics processor with a section of memory each (as in Mr. PC). An I/O line could be used to plot a pixel or do any one of an infinite number of things if we use a chip that can be taught new op-codes (i.e. have an on-cpu RAM for microcoded instructions as opposed to a ROM) or we could slowly trickel a short program into the graphic processors memory using a stream before we start using it properly. How did the Amiga handle its dedicated chip set? > > Simon > We need to explore all of the options before we write off a solution that would be as fast and powerfull as this one! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:58:29 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:00:12 GMT Message-Id: <199611061500.PAA07652@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Why is this *$%^ thing not working. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 115 Lines: 5 If this gets through. I'm just testing folks and would love to hear what went wrong. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:58:36 1996 Message-Id: <32812007.5DBA@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 15:32:23 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SIMCOUPE & DISKS References: <199611051312_MC1-BA7-307B@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 605 Lines: 11 Thomas Harte wrote: > > Although I wish to thank everyone who has tried to help me with > Simcoupe disks, I still have not managed to load anything! The 'fdformat' > command does not exist, either on my WIN95 Pentium, or my old DOS 6.2 486. Small hint - the fdformat program is /not/ a part of DOS 6.2, and I'm fairly sure it's not a part of Win95 either. You actually have to go out and download it before you can run it, y'know... :) I think the one they're talking about is for unix, but I know there's a dos version around (if you have a modem, you can download it from Blush Response). From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:58:50 1996 Message-Id: <32811EF2.499B@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 15:27:46 -0800 From: Paul Walker Organization: University of Warwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 257 Lines: 7 Gavin Smith wrote: > - I don't like WWW the myself but it sells! Fidonet doesn't... Now that bit, I can't argue with (believe me, I've tried ;). Simon? Is Fidonet still shrinking, or are things picking up a little now? (Better send that private email.) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 15:59:02 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS parallel To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:26:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611061507.PAA02902@caligula.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 6, 96 03:07:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 11 > On the matter of co-pros, there would be no - or little - problem if the SAM was a graphics processor and the new CPU had it's own memory. You then have a port from the new CPU to the z80 which gives commands like "switch to mode 3" or "draw circle at x,y" and the z80 does it. If the new CPU wants to access the z80's RAM then it sets BUSRQL low and views the SAM's memory and I/O ports in two 64K windows. There's nothing tricky about that! :-) -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:36:02 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:09:55 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106110954_1215391524@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Back on-line Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 220 Lines: 11 In a message dated 06/11/96 15:52:30, you write: >OK folks, I looks like we are back on line. > > -Frode What was the problem? Was the machine overloaded or did someone trip over the lead and pull the plug out. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:36:11 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:12:24 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106111223_1417156972@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Interrupts. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 343 Lines: 19 Subj: Re: SOS interupts Date: 05/11/96 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In a message dated 05/11/96 17:45:43, you write: >Um, if you are using new graphics circuits you won't need palette line >interrupts! > >imc > > Why not? If we want them, design them in. By the way, what are the interrupt modes on the Z380? Are there any extra ones? bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:36:55 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611061615.QAA02985@caligula.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:15:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <32811EF2.499B@csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Nov 6, 96 03:27:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 419 Lines: 14 > > Gavin Smith wrote: > > > - I don't like WWW the myself but it sells! Fidonet doesn't... > > Now that bit, I can't argue with (believe me, I've tried ;). Simon? Is Fidonet > still shrinking, or are things picking up a little now? (Better send that > private email.) > Why don't we provide tools to use Fidonet too? Who knows, if we sell enough machines we may get more people interested in it! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:58:18 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:35:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON In-Reply-To: <961105115119_1914498252@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:57:05 +0000 (GMT) X-Resent-From: Lee X-Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Resent-Message-Id: Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Resent-From: Lee Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Resent-Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 264 Lines: 17 imc wrote: ;>>(Why don't we all just shut up and go buy a Pentium PC...) ;>> ;>>imc Do we look stupid ?? Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:58:19 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:41:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps. In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:57:17 +0000 (GMT) X-Resent-From: Lee X-Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Resent-Message-Id: Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:28:45 +0000 (GMT) Resent-From: Lee Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Resent-Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 352 Lines: 17 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Gavin Smith wrote: ;>Agreed - so why can't we have both? We could have a GUI that could ;>run a CLI in a window ;> Rather like X-Windows .. ( Am I repeated myself here ??) Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:58:19 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:44:44 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611061644.QAA05007@igraine.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: AEm++gpCRj7LghDPVmjF8w== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2766 Lines: 69 [ snip ] > > Parallel processing on the SAM is not an option. Not unless you want > > complicated, software-driven handshaking in there, or if you want to add > > about 100 UKP to the cost (for which price you may as well redesign the > > motherboard from scratch and have the Z80B as a peripheral controller). > > > > The memory system gets in the way. It's the same problem with DMA if you > > want to be able to access memory outside of the SAM's paging structure. > > > > Martin, Bruce and I have all discussed this at length (well, me and Martin, > > and me and Bruce at different times). > > > > Sorry guys > > > Lose the old memory structure! > The old Z80 can be buizy zapping around in its own little world! Communicating > (as rarely as possible) > with the other 2 systems with I/O lines that hold the last byte put on them. > Perhaps use an I/O line to generate an interupt on th new Z380. > > It would be best if the Z380 and the graphics processors opperate on the same > memory, but this area of memory will be new and can have a completely different > structure so we can design them to work together! Give priority to the grapics > processor, let it lock the other chip out if wants to address an area of memory > on the same bus. > > We have 4 Meg, why not have 4 sections, each with its own bus so the processors > can work at the same time on different ones (We would miss memory contention if > we had none!) > [ snip ] Erm, I hate to say this but what you are referring to is an unmodified SAM with an accelerator of some sort plugged into the back of it. I can't believe the number of people that want to keep the design of the SAM more or less intact and just add little gizmos here and there. That's the reason why so many of us hate the PC today - it was never updated, they merely added bits. What you could be saying above is " I want two completely different machines, I want my old SAM, but I want it connected to a new, more powerful machine." Why not just have the new machine, if it's going to be compatible, anyway? Can I suggest the following approach to design the new SAM :- (1) **A Level of funding available is decided on** (2) Those **capable** of designing the new machine come up with various working solutions **within that limit**. (3) The designs are considered by SAM users in general, who decide whether or not the finished machine would be acceptable, in terms of compatibility and general new features. (4) Actually get around to **doing** something, rather than have the current problem of having unqualified remarks by various parties thrown into the debate. Until that date arrives, I see no further point in doing any further work on the SAM. DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:58:30 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:45:56 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611061645.QAA05010@igraine.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: YV7oaDb1n0oNTcptDmsYKg== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 714 Lines: 27 > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 5 18:15:12 1996 > Delivery-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:15:12 +0000 > From: Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk > Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:05:33 +0000 (GMT) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:43:45 GMT, D M Zambonini said: > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Ok Ian, what's a MMU? > > > Memory management unit. > > > Obviously Ian knows thats it's wicked to mock the afflicted... :) > > Huh? (hint: I didn't write any of the above text) > > imc ????!!! Now I'm confused as well.... What the hell is happening? [ Quick! call in Moulder and Scully! ] DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:59:27 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:41:05 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961102121418_1114238411@emout15.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 2, 96 12:14:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 106 Lines: 4 Never mind FIDONET. The SAM has its own network - why don't we try and make that a world standard? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:59:28 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:29:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) In-Reply-To: <6610C547A37@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:56:41 +0000 (GMT) X-Resent-From: Lee X-Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Resent-Message-Id: Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:28:22 +0000 (GMT) Resent-From: Lee Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Resent-Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 454 Lines: 17 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: ;>I like Windows 95, a bit, y'know. Does that make me stupid? ;>And saying Win95 isn't graphic is like saying Win3.11 isn't a GUI - ;>both are GUIs, I'm right and I'll deck anyone who says otherwise. Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 16:59:54 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:48:44 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611061648.QAA05014@igraine.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: S0oFOOLTZM9en2MtIlYXdw== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 467 Lines: 18 > > I bet you like orange clubs as well, don't you?... and the orange > > neopolitans ( or however you spell them..) .. and Terry's chocolate orange > > > > :) > > > MMmmm.. Yes! We'll have the case chocolate orange FLAVOURED! > -- > James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk Yeah! And we can have candy cane feet for the casing... and, and.. a mint centered CPU, and marzipan discs and, and... a gingerbread cottage.... Hey, hang on a minute..... :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:05 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:05 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10176@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: NS16000? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 545 Lines: 18 On Nov 05, 1996 14:11:18, 'ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale)' wrote: >> On another point, has anyone thought about using the 16- (Z8000) or 32- bit >> (Z800000?) versions of the Z80 as the main processor? >> > >The z8000 isn't a 16-bit version of the z80 - it's a completely >different processor (which was nearly used in the IBM PC) >-A -- Has anyone looked at the NS16000 chips? When I was at school we had a board the used one, and as far ar I can remember it understood most Z80 instructions. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:06 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:10 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10185@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Marketing From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 475 Lines: 13 On Nov 05, 1996 14:56:24, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >We *NEED* bundled games (DECENT ones) for SAMson. I only got Quizball with my >SAM. Played it about three times and that was it... -- If you bundle games then that puts the serious user off. If you bundle games that puts the software companies off If you bundle games that will put me off - cos nothing is free and I don't want to pay for something I may not want. Samsboss Tight as a ducks.... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:07 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:39 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10212@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: GUI and ICONS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 641 Lines: 23 OOn Nov 05, 1996 17:22:09, '"James R Curry" ' wrote: > >> > Clear, simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) with as >little writing >> > as possible - that is a GUI. >> >> So how do you plan to tell one word processor from another, when they all >> have the same "typewriter" icon? > >I think the key words here are "AS LITTLE writing as possible.". > >Okay, you'd have to have a LITTLE text with the icons, but most of >the time it wouldn't be needed. >-- >James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk -- Yes, Windows 3.1 but with user defind icons for the group folders. Please. Samsboss From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:19 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:52:02 GMT Message-Id: <199611061652.QAA10282@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Killer Apps - The internet From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 705 Lines: 19 On Nov 05, 1996 18:03:59, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >Trust me - it will. I work in PC World now and then and you wouldn't >believe the number of people who don't care about the processor >of the machine, the RAM of the machine, what other software it can >run etc. They simply ask "can I get on the Internet with this thing?" I grin >and >say "certainly Sir" - another satisfied customer. The internet sells >- I don't like WWW the myself but it sells! Fidonet doesn't... > >Gavin Smith -- You tell um Gav. I spend a good part of Saturdays in my local PC World (not employed, just looking) and I've heard the same thing so many times. Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:22 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:25 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10190@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 432 Lines: 19 On Nov 05, 1996 18:09:39, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: On Nov 05, 1996 16:08:40, 'Paul Walker ' wrote: >Dan Doore wrote: > >> You could put the keymaps as part of a flash ROM and then everybody could be >happy >> :) > >Sensible man, this one :) -- PC keyboards don't need a keymap, they send a number of codes. Samsboss Just got a code list with my nice new keyboard. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:49 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:30 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10199@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Assemblers From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 516 Lines: 18 On Nov 05, 1996 16:13:16, 'Paul Walker ' wrote: >Justin Skists wrote: > >> I've got this. I'm using it to code SMIDIP. I can't see why it would need >> changing the tables for the SAM... For the SAMson, yes. Especially for Z380. > >If it's working for you, then well done - but I wrote some code both in Comet >and >in Tasm, compared the output, and it was totally different. -- How can assembles have different output for the same instructions? Samsboss The One And Only From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:49 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:34 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10206@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Killer Apps, the Internet From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 318 Lines: 12 On Nov 05, 1996 17:18:57, '"James R Curry" ' wrote: >> Explore the Web and read e-mail using your TV, your existing phone-line, and >> a Samson Network Computer retailing at 399.99 pounds >> -- Try 299.99 pounds and you'r on to a real winner. Samsboss Will buy a SAMSON just for the NET From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:50 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:44 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10219@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 941 Lines: 26 On Nov 05, 1996 17:35:25, 'Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk' wrote: >On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:51:12 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: >> Mmmmm. But we have to cope with the standard keyboard layout - or everyone >> who has ever taken typing lessons will turn their nose up at it. > >But I'm not suggesting moving the letters around... > >Do people who take typing lessons come to rely on the caps lock key then? >As far as I am concerned you could remove it entirely. I don't see much >use for it and certainly not enough to put it next to the A. Control on the >other hand is used frequently (but not on a Sam) so it belongs on the home >row next to the A. > >imc (I know, let's ship it with a Dvorak keyboard...) -- Speaking as a non-touch typist, I can cope with any layout. But you try to change my Mum and you are in for some earache I can tell you. And wasn't Dvorak a composer? Samsboss Standing up for his Mum, OK From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:51 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:48 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10224@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Marketing From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 643 Lines: 20 On Nov 05, 1996 18:09:39, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: On Nov 05, 1996 17:36:58, 'Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk' wrote: >On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:33:03 +0000, Dave Hooper said: >> Ok - I agree. But would an Eilte-style game still cut the mustard? > >Why not? It's still pretty popular, apparently (well popular enough for >Revelation to make a new release for the Sam that isn't even new!). > >imc -- Well I got one at the Gloucester show and I think it is real good. Nice manuals and packaging and real value for money. More please. Samsboss Just managed to get a docking computer so now I'm gonna fly... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:58 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:57 GMT Message-Id: <199611061650.QAA10232@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4180 Lines: 115 OOn Nov 05, 1996 17:46:37, '"A.S. Collier" ' wrote: >On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 05/11/96 13:45:53, you write: >> >I am a Z80 programmer, you are not. I do think I know what I'm talking >> >about, thankyou. >> > >> I started Z80 machine code programming in 1980 (on a TRS-80) then moved via >> the ZX81 to the Spectrum and then the SAM. So that's 16 years so far. > >Okay, I didn't know that. You should have asked first instead of mouthing off. >(Mainly because I have never seen any machine >code program written by you. I would be interested to see something, is >there anything you could upload to NVG?) > >I am also surprised, because I can hardly believe that such an expert in >machine code programming could have ever made the following idiotic >comment. (I would have replied to this first time, but I only had ten >minutes between lectures. I wrote a reply but considered it too >patronising and deleted it. This time you have, basically, asked for it) > >No programmer, ever, anywhere, on any computer in the history of man, >would rely on the instruction timings to control the speed of the game. >Absolutely without fail, every time, always, indesputably will use >frame/line interrupts or some other hardware feature such as the HPEN >port. Never, ever, would the length of the instruction be of critical >importance if any user interaction is concerned (pretty important in a >game...) Well I did Z80 machine code as part of computer studies at school. And no program I ever wrote, either at school or on the Spectrum at home, used frame/line interrupts for timeing. So there. > >Does a game run at a different speed when the player presses a key, which >has to be interpreted by the computer? Of course not. Don't be silly! > >The only exception is, eg, creation of a large number of sprites - the >game may slow down because it has a lot of extra work to do and cannot >keep up. A faster processor will aid this problem - not compound it. Look at the problems with running the Z80 Emulator on the PC, very difficult to get some Spectrum games to run at the right speed - the speed they were DESIGNED to run at. > >> Add to that assembler level programming on ICL1900 mainframes and DEC PDP11 >> and VAX mini computers. A little bit of 6502 on the PET and BBC. Fortran, >> Algol, DTPL6, Cobol (horrid) Basic (too many versions to mention) BCPL >> (including implimenting the compiler on the ICL mainframe) + at least a >dozen >> more programming languages that I have had to debug programs in. All dating >> back to 1976, which makes twenty years experiance in computer programming, >> maintinance and support. > >I thought we were talking about Z80 assembly. What had the processor you program got to do with it, programming experiance is what counts. > >> You still miss the point - the Z380 is not a Z80B. We may be able to live >> with some of the differences, we may be able to get round many of the >others, >> but for 100% compatability - we have to use the Z80B. > >Nothing is a Z80B, except for a Z80B. Use that, and we won't have gone >anywhere. Is it worth all the effort? > >> In the first stage, it is there anyway, so any SAM software will run on the >> internal Z80, with the V3 ROM paged in - so no change, it will just be like >> an unexpanded SAM. > >Congratulations! You've just agreed with us. Who is US, or is it like the Royal WE, talk about getting you feathers in a ruffle. > >Is it so difficult to admit for a change that I was right? Not if he as any class he wont. Because in many ways your are wrong. > >> An, on a personal note, I think you need to get that large chip off your >> shoulder. > >Ha ha. > >Oh come on Bo, don't let's start that again. It is perfectly obvious you >haven't really read my messages - I just get a bit cheesed off when people >argue with things I didn't say. Bo was the guy what wrote FLASH! > >Andrew > -- Does he argue just for the fun of it I wonder? Samsboss Trying to keep on the right side of 'the majority' for a change. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:20:59 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611061611.QAA02977@caligula.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS parallel To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:11:08 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Nov 6, 96 03:26:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 911 Lines: 21 > > > > On the matter of co-pros, there would be no - or little - problem > if the SAM was a graphics processor and the new CPU had it's own > memory. You then have a port from the new CPU to the z80 which > gives commands like "switch to mode 3" or "draw circle at x,y" > and the z80 does it. If the new CPU wants to access the z80's > RAM then it sets BUSRQL low and views the SAM's memory and > I/O ports in two 64K windows. There's nothing tricky about > that! :-) > -Andy > That is just about perfect! I don't think the sam will be much good as a graphics processor (unless we connect 41 old SAMs to each new machine! -who said that?!). The best design at the moment is to go for the 3 processor machine (if we can). The only trouble is the 2 new processor strategy for the new part, the Z380 and funky graphics processor should use the same memory (if at all possible) can a similar tactic be used? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:21:26 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:51:58 GMT Message-Id: <199611061651.QAA10278@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: We Must Have A Modem So There... From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2299 Lines: 57 On Nov 05, 1996 17:58:39, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >It (internet access) may be way down your list, but in case you hadn't noticed, the >internet is the buzzword in computing at the moment. If the Sam was >bundled with software (a very simple web browser, email client - and >I understand that emails have already been sent using Sams) and a >modem, and labeled "SAM - internet in a box" it would sell by the >truckload. We have to think of sales, and not just ourselves - >fidonet - hahaha! > > Look fellow SAMers, we are all using the internet to deal with this mailing list. How many are logged onto the system? Not many. Why. Because unless you are rich enough to own a reasonable PC, or unless you are still at Uni, or unless you have an understanding boss that lets you use a company machine, the odds are you can't get access to the internet (forget the Cafs, they don't count). With a cheap machine, and I think there should be a version of SAMSON that is below 300 pounds, internet access could become much wider. Now I know that Blue Alpha electronics were supposed to be working on a dedicated SAM modem (stuff approval I say) like so many of AP's hardware ideas it never worked. I know cos I took may SAM down for repair while they were working on it. I think a modem should be VERY high on the list of projects to add onto the back of SAM and to put in the SAMSON case. > >Why not? A good wordprocessor, ability to email, looks good, >alternative to Microsoft/Intel - all for under stlg400? Nice one! And we >all have to dream don't we? No company releases a product and says >"we know this isn't going to sell or anything but here you are..." > Well said that man. Anything no microsoft will have a bigger market than many would think. >> >> > agree that CLI's are both faster and more intuitive when you get to >> > know them - but we really don't want to scare off beginners do we? >> >> No, we don't - but neither would I want a GUI /only/, is what I'm saying. > >Agreed - so why can't we have both? We could have a GUI that could >run a CLI in a window > Or a CLI that would run a GUI - the use selects which mode it starts up in. >Gavin Smith -- Samsboss Wanting to get on line with his SAM(SON). From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:21:27 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:52:06 GMT Message-Id: <199611061652.QAA10286@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Elite - its all in a name From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 742 Lines: 24 On Nov 02, 1996 22:33:13, 'davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore)' wrote: >SAM Elite is a solution to the lack of availability of the Citizen slimline >drives, using standard PC drives adapted through a modification, and also >offers a parallel (printer, etc.) socket. I'm not sure why the name change came >about, but it is basically the same as a Coupe. > >Bye, -- Dee name gotta changeda cosa lotsa peepol kepta mispronounciationing the worda COUPE. Ata leasta thata wasa whata Bobakins tolda mea ata dee April Show. Theya saidit as in the hut you puts chicky chicks in, you know -the word that sounds like soup - yes, you got it (aren't some people bad with words). Samsboss Round the bend, but proud of it... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:25:01 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:24:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Oh, i don't know... z80 or something Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <67D11036466@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 502 Lines: 10 Here's a question, for no reason... How come the Z80 has two different opcodes for LD A,(HL)? (the decimal 126 one and the ED --sommat one) I think there's more HL stuff with more than one opcode too... any difference in their speed, etc? daveee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:45:54 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: We Must Have A Modem So There... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:33:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611061651.QAA10278@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 6, 96 04:51:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 100 Lines: 3 Eh? Why have a SAM-specific modem? Just use a normal one and build a fast serial port for the SAM. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:45:55 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS parallel To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:29:01 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611061611.QAA02977@caligula.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 6, 96 04:11:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 817 Lines: 18 > That is just about perfect! > I don't think the sam will be much good as a graphics processor (unless we > connect 41 old SAMs to each new machine! -who said that?!). The best design > at the moment is to go for the 3 processor machine (if we can). > Three processor?? Where did that come from?!! If you are meaning to help out the z80, then I agree it may be a bit limiting for hi-res graphics, but no problem! The new processor can do that. The z80 would be fine for text-based programs and simple graphics, such as wordprocessors. At the moment the character is expanded from a bit image to an image suitable for mode 4 - well, the z80 could have the characters stored in a fast (if memory inefficient) manner, enabling quick printing. Like used on the text viewer on the FRED and ENCELADUS disczines. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:45:58 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS parallel To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:37:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611061644.QAA05007@igraine.cs.cf.ac.uk> from "D M Zambonini" at Nov 6, 96 04:44:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 802 Lines: 19 > I can't believe the number of people that want to keep the design of the > SAM more or less intact and just add little gizmos here and there. That's > the reason why so many of us hate the PC today - it was never updated, they > merely added bits. What you could be saying above is " I want two completely I agree with what you're saying, but there is a problem, and that is that there is hardly any scope for extending the SAM without a new ASIC. And the ASIC, I think, is the crux of the problem. The result is all these cludgy sort of suggestions. > (1) **A Level of funding available is decided on** > We could say "everyone who wants a SAMson give us 100 quid for development fees, then give us the 199 quid later" and then we all nip of to Barbados. Or Clacton-on-Sea more likely... -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:45:58 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:40:36 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - texmode Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <67D56D04EAE@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 998 Lines: 36 >At the moment the character is > expanded from a bit image to an image suitable for mode 4 - well, > the z80 could have the characters stored in a fast (if memory inefficient) > manner, enabling quick printing. Like used on the text viewer > on the FRED and ENCELADUS disczines. > -Andy Remember Simon's Butterly Print thingo? I reckon that should be used. (equally suitable for 64-char and 32-char printing, using the following data format: R1C1 R3C1 R5C1 R7C1 R7C2 R5C2 R3C2 R1C2 R2C2 R4C2 R6C2 R8C2 R8C1 R6C1 R4C1 R2C1 (R=row, C=column, where each row is a line of pixels and each column is 4*pixels column, based on the 8x8 character set) == then again, who ever said we need to use an 8x8 character set for the text mode?! davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:47:19 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:42:43 +0000 Subject: Re: We Must Have A Modem So There... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <67D60026A0E@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 576 Lines: 10 I absolutely agree - if we're going to have decent hardware, does it not work out cheaper if we can just build our own fast interfaces and use 'standard' (probably PC) hardware which can be picked up real cheap (especially non-top stuff, eg 14,400 modems rather than 38,000 can be picked up at bargain prices) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:47:20 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:40:07 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? In-Reply-To: <199611061650.QAA10232@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 967 Lines: 29 On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >I thought we were talking about Z80 assembly. > > What had the processor you program got to do with it, programming > experiance is what counts. No, we're talking about this specific chip. And yes, the Z380 is subtly different. That's why programmers need to practise on a few, unimportant tasks like demos, before launching into the mega-masterpiece. > >> An, on a personal note, I think you need to get that large chip off your > >> shoulder. > >Oh come on Bo, don't let's start that again. It is perfectly obvious you > >haven't really read my messages - I just get a bit cheesed off when people > >argue with things I didn't say. > Bo was the guy what wrote FLASH! He called me An, Why can't I call him Bo? I know it was a personal note, but this is ridiculous. Andrew > Trying to keep on the right side of 'the majority' for a change. And probably failing miserably. Oops, did I say that? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:50:06 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:17:58 +0100 Message-Id: <96110510175814@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 153 Lines: 6 to imc: Okay, so the time being wrong buggers up your ordering. It's not my fault. E- mail my computing department if you want someone to moan at. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 17:56:56 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611061738.RAA03074@caligula.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS parallel To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:38:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611061644.QAA05007@igraine.cs.cf.ac.uk> from "D M Zambonini" at Nov 6, 96 04:44:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3235 Lines: 73 > Erm, I hate to say this but what you are referring to is an unmodified SAM > with an accelerator of some sort plugged into the back of it. > I can't believe the number of people that want to keep the design of the > SAM more or less intact and just add little gizmos here and there. That's > the reason why so many of us hate the PC today - it was never updated, they > merely added bits. What you could be saying above is " I want two completely > different machines, I want my old SAM, but I want it connected to a new, more > powerful machine." Why not just have the new machine, if it's going to be > compatible, anyway? > It was the (only) initial design constraint -the new machine must be developed as a group of expansion modules growing from the back of the current machine. I understand your point. What I suggested was in effect 3 computers networked together. This may well be advantagous, but what we must avoid is the very bad way that the 3 machines were interconnected, they must be so well conneced that they operate as one, this could be possible using better communications between the 3 sections. The Z80 in the current machine is not powerfull enough on its own, and as it must appear somewhere in the final design, it should be as well integrated as possible. Remember that the original dream of the SAM was to be an inteligent keyboard (so I have been told). > Can I suggest the following approach to design the new SAM :- > > (1) **A Level of funding available is decided on** > This is important. > (2) Those **capable** of designing the new machine come up with various > working solutions **within that limit**. > I hope I am not taking this more personally than it was intended. As someone wrote recently 'nothing new happens with computers' I take this as implying 'we need new, fresh ideas to advance ahead of the rest'. True, I know little of hardware, but we all have an opinion. If someone who is 'incapable' suggests a good and novel idea no one should ignore it because of its source. -WOW! that almost sounded political! > (3) The designs are considered by SAM users in general, who decide whether > or not the finished machine would be acceptable, in terms of compatibility > and general new features. > At this point would it not be more productive for the 'SAM users in general' (well, on this list anyway) to suggest room for improvement in the design? > (4) Actually get around to **doing** something, rather than have the current > problem of having unqualified remarks by various parties thrown into the > debate. > True, we need to actualy decide on a plan and execute it. Trouble is that only one complete plan has been put forward (I was only discussing how that plan could be integrated with the current memory setup, someone stated that such co-processing as that idea implied would be impractical I urged re-consideration of that point). We all want to see the machine completed more than we want to talk about it. But we must ensure that the machine we do get built is what both we and the market wants. > Until that date arrives, I see no further point in doing any further work on > the SAM. > I am sorry. > DMZ > --- Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:04:10 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:59:52 GMT Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Gavin Smith" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <148937ADB@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 252 Lines: 9 > Does he argue just for the fun of it I wonder? > > Samsboss I was just about to ask the same myself. I thought we were meant to be helping each other, learning from each other and making smart-arse comments where ever possible? Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:15:34 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:04:23 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106130423_1981803909@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re SAMSON Keyboard Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1332 Lines: 31 In a message dated 05/11/96 17:37:22, you write: >But I'm not suggesting moving the letters around... > >Do people who take typing lessons come to rely on the caps lock key then? >As far as I am concerned you could remove it entirely. I don't see much >use for it and certainly not enough to put it next to the A. Control on the >other hand is used frequently (but not on a Sam) so it belongs on the home >row next to the A. > >imc (I know, let's ship it with a Dvorak keyboard...) > > Yes, all keys have their prefered place by typists. The extra 'computer' keys should never get in the way of typists (because they are mostly female and if you get it wrong for them they let you know...) How about an ABC keyboard, saw one once in use with young kids and it worked for them. If we change from the norm, why not change big? Seriously though. The PC keyboard just sends out serial tokens for the keys pressed. Try changing your keyboard layout in DOS/Windows and all it does is filter a few of these tokens and change then around. For the sake of sales, the keyboard that goes out in the UK should be both fairly cheap (but of reasonable quality) and have a standard layout. If anyone wants a different keyboard then that is up to them - that would be the big advantage with a PC keyboard - the wide choice available. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:15:45 1996 Message-Id: <199611061807.SAA26234@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Tv or not TV Date: 06 Nov 1996 17:06:01 References: <9611051050.AA02219@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 743 Lines: 22 In a message of 05 Nov 96 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: ICc> Didn't I also hear you going on about a GUI? A windowing system on a ICc> TV is a joke. You need at least 768x512 for a decent windowing system. ICc> No one's going to buy a computer on the strength of a windowing system ICc> that runs in 4 colours on 512x192! That's why the "windows" system would need to be adaptable. There are still quite a lot of Amiga users who use TVs. IMO, it has got to have SCART at the very least. We're moving way too far away from SAM if it can't be used with a TV. The traffic on this mailing list very nearly getting /too/ /much/.. I'm not helping by adding useless opinions.. hmm.. :/ _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:15:45 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:04:29 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106130427_1181933574@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re:Killer apps. Internet in the home Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 675 Lines: 23 Subj: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet - Reply Date: 05/11/96 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In a message dated 05/11/96 17:28:35, you write: >If you are going to produce this sort of 'Internet Toaster', a prerequisite >would >have to be a *very* fast serial connection for a modem or even ISDN adaptor. >Could >the solutions being put foward handle this sort of data stream either via >RS232 or >even something more spicey like the USB? > >Dan. Good point, 28800 is now the standard most web pages are being designed for. Funny, evey time one group of people work out how to make something go faster - another group work out how to slow it down. But ISDN? In the home? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:15:45 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:04:30 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106130429_1215414534@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: TV or Not TV Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 534 Lines: 20 Subj: Re: Tv or not TV Date: 05/11/96 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In a message dated 05/11/96 11:32:41, you write: >Something I found really funny about the computer industry was that >in the early Eighties, ALL home computers linked to TV's (with the >exception of the Beeb) and then in the late 8)'s the link the TV was >called a 'revolutionary new feature' when they managed to do it with >the new-style PC's. > >Ha. > >Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) >"They call me Mad The Swine" The BBC B worked with a TV. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:15:46 1996 Message-Id: <199611061807.SAA26228@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Tv or not TV Date: 06 Nov 1996 17:06:19 X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 647 Lines: 19 In a message of 05 Nov 96 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Bac> But the point is, would 256 colours (just twice the number we have Bac> now, be acceptable? Bac> I think 16K colours (with perhaps a limit of 256 per scan line) would Bac> be better. And I don't think a TV would cope with that output from a Bac> computer unless it was connected to the scart socket. Before I got the multisync monitor, I could use the Amiga 1200 - with HAM 8 display, no problem, on TV /without/ scart. 256 odd thousand colours (or thereabout - I can't be bothered finding the manual). Maybe I'm missing the point here? Bye, _ |_)ave From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:15:46 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:08:07 GMT Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Gavin Smith" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <16C691D80@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 374 Lines: 12 > > Does he argue just for the fun of it I wonder? > > > > Samsboss > > I was just about to ask the same myself. I thought we were meant to > be helping each other, learning from each other and making smart-arse > comments where ever possible? > > Gavin Smith Erm, I actually meant "not making smart answers where ever possible" *grins* And well said Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:16:41 1996 Message-Id: <199611061807.SAA26241@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS - (Elite) Date: 06 Nov 1996 17:11:02 References: <9611051301.AA00570@asmal.edh-net> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1162 Lines: 21 In a message of 05 Nov 96 Frode Tenneboe wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: >> Who said it needs to be Elite? Why not make an Elite-feel game that has >> erm the feel of Elite but different somehow? In other words, an Elite >> clone. FT> Basically because it takes less time to implement something that has FT> already been designed. ;) I say forget all about a /new/ SAM version of Elite. We should be talking 'Frontier' at the very least. This reminds me of when Manic Miner and Splat were converted to SAM.. all very well, but /years/ too late. They didn't do anything for SAMs cred at all. I remember Colin Jordan begging people to have a go of his Splat conversion at a show years ago. No one could be bothered, so he played it himself, saying "You'll never see a faster Mode 4 scroll than that!". No one really cared. :) My wife has a very sarcastic attitude towards SAM sometimes and she is forever taking the p*ss about Splat... I told her that people are talking about a new generation SAM and she looked at me earnestly and asked if Splat would still work on it.. bitch! :))) _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:35:37 1996 Resent-Message-Id: <199611061835.SAA14426@mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Resent-From: Johnna Teare Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:26:04 GMT+0 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:32:31 GMT+0 Subject: Re: The brand new SAMSite Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <14480D570EE@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 465 Lines: 12 Bad news...looks like my website is not going to get up and running. My Uni don't supply access to personal home pages, and nor do my girlfriends so I'll have to shelve the idea for now. Thanks to all of you who chipped in and helped with bits and bobs though. And if this gets through it'll be a miracle because i keep getting delivery failure messages when I send stuff up to the list! Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:35:38 1996 Resent-Message-Id: <199611061835.SAA14422@mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Resent-From: Johnna Teare Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:26:24 GMT+0 Resent-From: Johnna Teare Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:30:16 GMT+0 Resent-From: Johnna Teare Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:13:11 GMT+0 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:50:22 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SAMson marketing Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <143D4BA07FB@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 430 Lines: 12 Hello all, > Ok - I agree. But would an Eilte-style game still cut the mustard? > Certainly it needs to be bundled with a (good) wordprocessor, > spreadsheet, GUI (with assorted applications, etc), and at least some > good games. My SAM came with the MGT demo tape. And quite cack it was > too. But I bet you still played the MGT Anthem a hundred times. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:36:35 1996 Resent-Message-Id: <199611061836.SAA14459@mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Resent-From: Johnna Teare Resent-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:26:42 GMT+0 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:29:55 GMT+0 Subject: Re: A long list of Q's! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <144801E34E9@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4122 Lines: 91 Hello again (am I the only person on line at the moment?) > As you'll notice in another of my messages, I now have NO way > whatsoever of running my SAM software. Which leads me to the follwing > questions :- > > 1) Judging by my problems so far, am I likely to get SimCoupe to > work, to tide me over until the SAMson? >From what I can gather, SimCoupe is still very much in development so if your desperate to get into the SAM scene you'll have to get a working Coupe > 2) Baring in mind that I don't want to use a printer with my SAM > right now, what advantages does the SAM Elite have over a regular > reconditioned SAM. Would it be possible to have my SAM repaired / > reconditioned at a reduced price? Erm, the Elite has a new ROM (V3) and diskdrives that although they are not slot-in ones, are in plentiful supply in case of failure. Apart from that, nothing. > 3) Should I just wait for the SAMson? I know, Bob, that this is > definitely NOT what you wanted to happen, but, before you all yell > at me, I have a few more options :- SAMSon is still very much a dream and nothing is concrete as to specifications, release date, cost etc. The list are currently throwing ideas around, but nothing is definite. > 4) What is the intended price of the SAMson? Can I pay early (as in > after christmas) to make up for the fact that I will be effectively > restricting it's development by waiting for it, if I > do decide to wait for it. No price known although the current idea is to keep it less than stlg400. As to paying early, well ask Bob but I imagine the answer will be no because this is only a Work In Progress. > 5) How much will buying all the bits to upgrade a SAM or SAM Elite > to a SAMson cost, and what will be the final cost compared to just > waiting for the actual article? Again, nothing is certain although it seems likely that some hardware will come to fruition from this project, even if the full SAMSon is never completed. > 6) I know you already stated this, but the high bandwidth on this > newsgroup means that actually finding the original date would take > literallly hours, but when is the provsisional > launch date of the SAMson? Bob originally said 'sometim next year' and, as the project is at asuch an early stage it would be foolahrdy to put any provisional date on anything. > 7) My original SAM never worked using the scart port on it's rear, > is this a hardware fault, or did I mistake the use of that port? I'm not sure about this one - perhaps somebody would like to answer it. I've just bought aSCART telly so I was hoping to take it home and get my SAM up and running using it. I'll be most dissapointed if I can't. I think there was some trouble with SCART leads not being the type required by the SAM, but I can't be sure! > 8) What's software support like for the SAM right now ? (I have > been away for almost four years ! ). What sort of packages and games > are available? Well, the scene has been very quiet recently - a conversion of the Spectrum version of Elite was the last thing released games-wise and it was literally a port over with access to diskdirve. Most notably, Lemmings was released and was very good indeed, SAMPaint was a really excellent art package by Graham Burtenshaw, a C Compiler was released although some people believe it to be pretty crap (I'm not really knowledgable ebnough to comment on it yet - I can't get my scanf function to work!), theres been a few good games aswell, but just recently it has gone very quiet. > > Thankyou in advance to anyone who chooses to answer these. > Not a problem, just hope that most of my answers were accurate enough to sort the problem out. Your best bet is to Email Bob and ask him about the current supply of SAMs. He'll be able to help you out better than I can (although he might not be as impartial *grin*) > -Thomas > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 18:36:37 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:00:50 +0100 Message-Id: <96110511005065@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Damnation Dalmation X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 152 Lines: 5 Yeah, we've got UNIX and VAX, too. There's also this NODE MORSE thingy which we use for email, and the obligatory PC network, and some Macs, too. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 19:00:44 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:57:38 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <15BE98D78ED@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 786 Lines: 18 Hello folks, > >Does a game run at a different speed when the player presses a key, which > >has to be interpreted by the computer? Of course not. Don't be silly! > > > >The only exception is, eg, creation of a large number of sprites - the > >game may slow down because it has a lot of extra work to do and cannot > >keep up. A faster processor will aid this problem - not compound it. > > Look at the problems with running the Z80 Emulator on the PC, very > difficult to get some Spectrum games to run at the right speed - the speed > they were DESIGNED to run at. But we're not going to bother with emulating the Specturm are we? I mean, if you can emulate the SAM 100% then it should follow anyway. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 19:20:33 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:12:33 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SOS parallel Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <15C3BEB2CD0@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 454 Lines: 14 Hello, > > (1) **A Level of funding available is decided on** > > > > We could say "everyone who wants a SAMson give us 100 quid for > development fees, then give us the 199 quid later" and then we > all nip of to Barbados. Or Clacton-on-Sea more likely... Well, I'd be game for that - if I had a definite list of specs infront of me (and a leymans guide to what they all mean!) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 19:20:34 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:09:45 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Round the bend... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <15C26CE2996@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 160 Lines: 7 Samsboss, If you're "round then bend" I think I'll stop before I reach the corner! :-) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 19:20:44 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:06:37 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Go a bundle... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <15C12656C1B@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1970 Lines: 38 Hello, Samsboss recently suggested that bundling games etc. would not attract customers. Well, you'll have to bundle SOMETHING. Look at the SAM when it was first released - I got a demo cassette with FLASH on and a crap MGT graphics demo. I didn't even get a flippin' emulator! The GUI (or WIMP - I'm not trying to start *that* one up again) will have to come with the machine, as will the CLI and, perhaps, a cut-down version of our killer application. Also, basic Word Processors, graphics packages (I think SAMPaint could easily hold it's own here - but then again I never was much good at graphics), spreadsheets (Campion? - I've never seen it so I'm not sure) and something lke SC_Filer. If you released all these with the machine in some sort of cut-down form, or made sure that upgraded and updated version of them were available for the users AS SOON AS THEY BOUGHT THE MACHINE then you'd have an instant software market aswell. In summary, I think bundling SOME things with the machine gains more than it loses. I'm unsure about games though - they are of the ilk meaning that some love them and other s hate them so perhaps it would be best to let people buy there own (or put money off vouchers in the box to encourage them to buy the ones that are available). My other point is that, if this machine IS to go ahead, then we HAVE to have some software ready BEFORE IT IS RELEASED! We can't do a SAM and just hope that everybody will buy the machine and then write the material to keep the market going. Of course, some of this will be overcome if we have 80%+ SAM compatibiliy (and don't query the 80% figure, I just dreamed it up!) as we already have a fairly substantial software base with, in my opinion, some very high quality software available. And DMZ, is it really wise to talk the SAM down on a SAM USERS mailing list? :-) We know where you live... Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 19:25:39 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:17:37 GMT+0 Subject: Re: TV or Not TV Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <15C51C55C63@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 820 Lines: 25 > Subj: Re: Tv or not TV > Date: 05/11/96 > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > > In a message dated 05/11/96 11:32:41, you write: > > >Something I found really funny about the computer industry was that > >in the early Eighties, ALL home computers linked to TV's (with the > >exception of the Beeb) and then in the late 8)'s the link the TV was > >called a 'revolutionary new feature' when they managed to do it with > >the new-style PC's. > > > >Ha. > > > >Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) > >"They call me Mad The Swine" > > The BBC B worked with a TV. Well, I'd only ever seen it working with moitors and I thought that if I wrote down it worked with tellys, some smart-arse would correct me. It seems that I can't win. ;-) > Bob. > Johnna (off to cook his tea - porion of ships and a shoulder of lamb) From imc Wed Nov 6 19:29:12 1996 Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? (fwd) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:29:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 5, 96 11:06:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 506 Lines: 15 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:06:19 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > > Or, as in most cases, the code just runs as fast as it can and doesn't > > bother about the timing. > Oh yes? Well, wouldn't a faster processor help then? Did I say it wouldn't? > Okay, so what if there are less, or more aliens on the screen than usual? > Does the game zoom away then slow to a snails pace? I don't think so. Yep. See Lunar Jetman or Rockfall, for example. imc From imc Wed Nov 6 19:32:49 1996 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) (fwd) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:32:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 5, 96 11:06:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 776 Lines: 19 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:06:30 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > Seven doesn't divide by three either. > Perhaps the sixteenth bit could stand for bright, in the same way that > bit3 works in the CLUT at the moment. That would be silly. If you have five bits of each colour then a bright would be a useless added complication. > Personally though, I'd much rather address one pixel as no more than one > byte - particularly if we might get left still with an 8-bit processor. There is not the slightest possibility that a high resolution/colour graphics board could be adequately serviced by the Z80B. If you want more than 256 colours on the screen at the same time you have to go for 16 or 24 bits. How else are you going to do it? And don't say line interrupts! imc From imc Wed Nov 6 19:39:04 1996 Subject: Re: Samson: CPU and (Tv)u(TV') (fwd) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:39:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 5, 96 11:06:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1656 Lines: 48 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:06:51 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > > Not. SLL is neither of these (allegedly the reason why it's undocumented > > is because it was supposed to be the same as SLA but in fact it puts a 1 > > on the end instead of a 0). The "LD E,SET 5,(IX+2)" instructions are no > > slower than the "SET 5,(IX+2)" instructions and, though it's hard to see > > any particular use for these instructions, they are not repetitions of > > existing instructions. > Errr, that wasn't such a good example, since those two instructions don't > do the same thing. Anyway What two instructions? "LD E,SET 5,(IX+2)" does _more_ than "SET 5,(IX+2)" and is no slower, hence I refute your comment that the extra instructions are slow. > LD A,(IX+n) > RRA > > is four t-states faster than > > LD A,RR A,(IX+n) But RR A,(IX+n) LD A,(IX+n) (which is what "LD A,RR A,(IX+n)" actually means) is much slower. > You might > note that nobody has ever really known *exactly* how fast the Sam's Z80B > goes, until David Z wrote his list for MNEMOtech I knew long before that. > Who said that? I said 256 colours (perhaps from a larger palette), with > resolution at 512*384. Yes, I still have that somewhere to reply to. The fact is that interlaced displays give you a headache[*], and I can't imagine how awful it would look on a TV! imc [*] Some PCs have just been installed in our MSc terminal rooms (which thankfully I don't have to use that much) which have 1024x768 interlaced displays. Horrible. And, incidentally, slightly bit on the small side for doing windowing things. From imc Wed Nov 6 19:56:26 1996 Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:56:26 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611010956.AA17602@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 1, 96 10:56:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 220 Lines: 7 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:56:29 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > Agreed. An integraded DOS which will not differ in syntax when different > devices are added is a must! If you want Unix, why don't you just say Unix? :-) imc From imc Wed Nov 6 19:57:17 1996 Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:57:17 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611011118.LAA10529@titus.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 1, 96 11:18:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 301 Lines: 8 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:18:04 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > The things all of the major GUIs have in common is some sort of menu bar. > Win'95 has it at the bottom, the Macs have it at the top and Suns have a > much nicer moveable one. Well I'm on a Sun and I've never seen a menu bar on it... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 20:40:12 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:33:37 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Mug Trafficking... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <15D91431F64@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1139 Lines: 24 A while back, Bob (I think - don't blame me if I'm wrong here though folks!) suggested somebody set upa digest version of the SAM users list. After getting 160 mails in only two days I'm beginning to think this might be a wise move! I know the users list works fine as it is, but I fear that if I go away for a weekend I'll be working the whole of the next week reading my mailings! And I seem to be the only mug who is online whilst everybody else has dissapeared! These 70-a-day mails only ever seem to happen when I'm asleep - a bit like when it snows and teh land gets covered in a thick layer of white stuff. So is there any chance of a digest, sent out automatically when the incoming mail buffer fills up to about 100k or something? By grabbing the subject lines and putting them into a list at the top of the piece, one could see what was relevant and what wasn't. Am I alone in this thought, or do others sympathise with my views now that the mailing list has exploded into hyperaction? And is anybody else online at the moment? (8.35pm GMT) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 20:48:26 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:45:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Geneology breeds contempt In-Reply-To: <125B9F9309E@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 310 Lines: 11 > Are there any DECENT geneology programs for running on the SAM? I know of none for the SAM, decent or otherwise. I've seen a few for the PC, but you wouldn't wish them on your worst enemy - perhaps no-one has ever produced a decent genealogy prog... Tim. PS. Yes, I'm online at the mo - about 8-45ish. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:01:34 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:56:34 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Geneology breeds contempt Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <15DF2671BCC@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 672 Lines: 21 Hello Tim, > > Are there any DECENT geneology programs for running on the SAM? > > I know of none for the SAM, decent or otherwise. > > I've seen a few for the PC, but you wouldn't wish them on your worst > enemy - perhaps no-one has ever produced a decent genealogy prog... > > Tim. > > PS. Yes, I'm online at the mo - about 8-45ish. > I thought about writing one but it would just be way too tricky (for me, anyway!). SCADs is my limit! Thanks for letting me know anyway - I thought one might have cropped up on SAM Supp over the years so I visited their website. Ha. Well worth a giggle. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:10 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:41:33 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Samson Keyboard To: sam users Message-Id: <199611061641_MC1-BBE-C4E7@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1038 Lines: 30 > > >PC layout is OK (just make sure the Control key is next to the A, not > > >the Caps lock key! And put Edit out of the way so you don't press it > > >accidentally instead of shift...). > > > > > >The Sam keyboard has a lot of mistakes, for example the locations of "=" and > > >"+". > > > > > >imc > > > > But the Caps-Lock is always next to the A key. > No..no.nooooo. Ctrl is next to A - ctrl is used more in modern computing and hence has been moved. > > A good PC keyboard would have equal sized shift keys and a large Backspace > > key. > > It will need very little tayloring for SAMSON if we adopt the ALT + Keypad > > keys to cope with the special characters like the copyright symbol. > > Copyright is on Shift+2. > And you need a full keyboard with complete ISO-8859-x support. > -Frode Er have I missed something. If we are going to use a PC keyboard like wot I am typing on now. Then you gets one with the layout you wants. And will we have fun with all the different country layouts - of course we will. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:10 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:41:36 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Samson MMU To: sam users Message-Id: <199611061641_MC1-BBE-C4E8@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 230 Lines: 11 > > Ok Ian, what's a MMU? > > > Memory management unit. Wonderful devices and there's even one in the Z80 family. Just can't wait for discussions on generating NMI to signal page faults and swaping clicks in/out to disk. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:20 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:41:45 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Samson graphics extra To: sam users Message-Id: <199611061643_MC1-BBE-C4EB@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1367 Lines: 31 > > Also if you are bothered about fast scrolling then there is a way to scroll > > Could a offset-from-left and offset-from-top register be implemented easily? I don't know enough about the operation of the ASIC to say if address-lines can be overridden > like this. > < cut> > Where the screen starts in bank W and as you move in either direction, you always has one screen 'buffer' (you can have right-scrolling by setting the start to bank Z). > Combining this with the line interrupts...! > > Now, can this be done? Is the a technical document on the ASIC somewhere? > > -Frode well if we use the asic then I think we are stuck with shifting lots of bytes but if we are talking about a NEW graphics card with lots of memory and and its own processor and stuff then scrolling by changing the address lines is all done by the hardware that moves the data to the screen. It 'knows' when it has to wrap or jump arround in the video memory. So yu can have the 24bit colour 1024xwhatever and even if it is several megs of memory it would appear to move very fast but would actually stay put. The last machine I saw using this idea passed away about 1986 and had a dedicated video chip. (not a graphics processor it was a text only word processor) but I am sure we could get the idea to work for us - on a new add on extra super duper graphics board. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:21 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:41:39 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: proposal workpackage To: sam users Message-Id: <199611061643_MC1-BBE-C4EA@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 777 Lines: 21 >BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: >> Clear, simple Icons, arranged inside logical Folders (groups) with as >>little writing as possible - that is a GUI. >So how do you plan to tell one word processor from another, when they all >have the same "typewriter" icon? So they have different icons eh. Does this mean that in years to come we will have thousands of different, but similar, icons. That is how the Japenese went with kanji and the ancient Egyptians with their hieroglyphs. To avoid repeating history could I suggest a small set of graphics that when combined in specific orders would convey meaning to the user. I would suggest perhaps 26 or so graphics. I'll even get the ball rolling and suggest that the bit patterns for the first five should be A B C D E Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:21 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:41:50 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Tv or Not tv (Nev ignore this) To: sam users Message-Id: <199611061642_MC1-BBE-C4EC@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 638 Lines: 17 > At 05:49 AM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote: > >But the point is, would 256 colours (just twice the number we have now, be > >acceptable? > >I think 16K colours (with perhaps a limit of 256 per scan line) would be > >better. And I don't think a TV would cope with that output from a computer > >unless it was connected to the scart socket. > > > >Nev, you there, you know more about TV than I do, what do you think? Erm I guess you'll be hard pressed to get better that 400 dots and 260 colour changes on a line without loss of resolution. (UK PAL TV Standards) & Get my name of the subject !!!! it drives my mail filter mad Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:21 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:42:55 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106164255_1847627014@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Why there was a MODE 2 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 608 Lines: 15 In a message dated 06/11/96 16:06:59, you write: >What possesed MGT to think anyone would use mode 2 for games! It may be >better >than the speccy screen but we upgraded into a new leage! We had to compare >ourselfs with Amiga programmers. In this range Mode 4 was the minimum! >Will we have the same problem soon as we move into the PC range? > -Not if this newsgroup can help it! > Mode 2 was there for two reasons. 1) Because it could be done without adding very much to the logic in the ASIC, and 2) to give compatibility with the TS2068. I know, because I lent Bruce the 2068 to get it right. Bob From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:22 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:42:59 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106164257_1215454983@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 642 Lines: 19 In a message dated 06/11/96 16:15:04, you write: >On the matter of co-pros, there would be no - or little - problem >if the SAM was a graphics processor and the new CPU had it's own >memory. You then have a port from the new CPU to the z80 which >gives commands like "switch to mode 3" or "draw circle at x,y" >and the z80 does it. If the new CPU wants to access the z80's >RAM then it sets BUSRQL low and views the SAM's memory and >I/O ports in two 64K windows. There's nothing tricky about >that! :-) >-Andy > > > I get to like you more and more Andy. Final details not worked out of course, but its something along those lines. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:22 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:43:04 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106164302_1417242923@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: GUI and ICONS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 317 Lines: 14 In a message dated 06/11/96 17:25:45, you write: >>Okay, you'd have to have a LITTLE text with the icons, but most of >>the time it wouldn't be needed. >>-- >>James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk >-- >Yes, Windows 3.1 but with user defind icons for the group folders. Please. > >Samsboss Yes please. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:22 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:43:04 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106164303_1516693767@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 309 Lines: 9 In a message dated 06/11/96 17:31:35, you write: >The only trouble is the 2 new processor strategy for the new part, >the Z380 and funky graphics processor should use the same memory (if at all >possible) can a similar tactic be used? Why should it use the same memory? That would slow things down. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:37 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:43:08 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961106164305_1613563527@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: We Must Have A Modem So There... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 525 Lines: 13 In a message dated 06/11/96 17:49:27, you write: >I absolutely agree - if we're going to have decent hardware, does it >not work out cheaper if we can just build our own fast interfaces and >use 'standard' (probably PC) hardware which can be picked up real >cheap (especially non-top stuff, eg 14,400 modems rather than 38,000 can >be picked up at bargain prices) >davee The problem with this approach is that the bus standards the cards are designed for is the PCs with lots of interrupts and DMA and the like. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 21:55:38 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:22:51 +0100 Message-Id: <96110513225090@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: SAM-USERS@nvg.unit.no Subject: Daddy! X-Vms-To: SAM-USERS@NVG.UNIT.NO Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 129 Lines: 9 Awww, Dave's going to be a daddy again! It just goes to show: nights *away* from the VDU can be just as productive! Al. =*] From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 22:07:00 1996 Message-Id: <199611062200.XAA11121@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: Sam users Subject: Why Telephone or ISDN? Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:03:21 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 636 Lines: 16 Yes why Telephone or ISDN? I am connected to the net through the TV Cable network. Overhere in the Netherlands the Cable Company CaiWestland are running an experiment which gives me Email, WWW the complete works. And it is pretty damn fast to. For just 19 pounds a month you get unlimited access, no telephone cost (because you arn't using the phone, so no need for ISDN either) and a 112k cable modem. And then to think that 90% of the Dutch households are connected to a Cable network. Cooooool....... Robert van der Veeke AKA RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Red leader here: watch out we are running out of diskspace real soon! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 22:09:00 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:41:50 +0100 Message-Id: <96110513414946@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON (& Deliah) X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 133 Lines: 11 Nev: > Professional. No just the currently accepted norm Unfortunately. > (I'm having an existentialist day today) You too? Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 6 22:35:01 1996 Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 22:48:26 +0000 (GMT) From: David Gommeren Subject: Re: Graphics processor/sound board To: Sam List In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961104134923.0091d7ec@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 X-Organization: David Gommeren, Belgium X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.08] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1638 Lines: 37 On Mon 04 Nov, Simon Cooke wrote: > Featuring 33Mhz RISC processor (we can use this for drawing, sorting, other > routines etc), fully programmable. > Resolution of up to 1024x768 in 16.7 million colours > > LCD display compatible > Genlocking. > Palette has MiDGET-style colour control in its 16.7 million colour mode (ie > you can use it to colour shift, do fades, etc with a minimum of processing). > > Hardware 32x? cursor, 4 colour (one is transparent), colours are any from > the 16.7M colour palette. (32x? because it's 32 pixels wide, but as deep as > you like). > > 8 stereo DAC outputs, at up to 44.1kHZ. > > With the processor power available, and 4Mb of memory on board (hey, why > not? it's cheap enough these days! :) ), we could use this as a SAM graphics > board, with SAA1099 emulation (and high-power sound output as well), and a > graphics processor built in. I did not want to mix myself in this argument (just donwloading mail takes me the entire evening). But I totally agree. There is something like the ARM7100 or ARM7500. A single chip solution (processor, graphics, sound, memory controller). The processor is fast enough to also do the Z80 emulation (giving the possibility to emulate Spectrum 48, 128 and Sam). Using some nice timers and a smart kernel you can easily program the emulator to work real time with the graphics for raster interrupts and the like. The costs are probably higher then adding something to the Sam (but not dramatically). In my opinion, if you stick to an 8 bit processor, you will end up with another dead born baby (excuse my language). David Gommeren (gommerd@interpac.be) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 02:34:36 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:57:41 +0000 Subject: The 8 bit SAMSON Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847328668.629776.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 460 Lines: 9 > (Why don't we all just shut up and go buy a Pentium PC...) Not until Allan has perfected his Sam emulator... :-) -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 02:34:37 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:57:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Tv or not TV Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847328693.629828.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 916 Lines: 16 > Something I found really funny about the computer industry was that > in the early Eighties, ALL home computers linked to TV's (with the > exception of the Beeb) and then in the late 8)'s the link the TV was > called a 'revolutionary new feature' when they managed to do it with > the new-style PC's. The only reason it was call 'revolutionart' was by the promotions dept. to try and sell it to the 'dumb' punters that didn't know better, because the promo dept. knew that most people already knew monitors were better quality, but not a big a a reasonable size TV. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 02:55:33 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:57:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Samson CPU(s) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847328671.629787.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1107 Lines: 20 > ;>>> Win95 is very difficult to call a GUI because of the extensive > use of the ;>>> Menu Bar. ;>> ;>>How so? It's graphic, it's an > interface between the user and the internal ;>>gubbins, therefore > it's a Graphical User Interface. ;> ;>Its not Graphic, it pulls up a > I agree with Bob, it's not a GUI, it's a WIMP. The two terms have > been replaced by GUI only in recent years, resulting in a bit of > confusion as to what they _really_ are. But WIMP stand for Windows Icons Mouse Pointer GUI is a Graphical User Interface, hence a GUI is any user interface that is graphical, a WIMP system is just very basic icons only, ie Win3.xx, or Driver, both are too limited and cannot be expanded as much as a proper GUI. (although WIMP is a GUI in itself) -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 02:55:33 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:57:41 +0000 Subject: Son Of Sam [Cases] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847328693.629848.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1112 Lines: 20 > >The beauty of PC cases is that there are hundreds to choose from, > >so the choice is entirely your own, the internals are basically > >the same so you find one you like and put your inside's inside. > > Yes, but the point is WCC will have to choose one case and make sure > they get supplies for all the SAMSONs. Every PC that I come across > seems to have a different case - we can't have that with SAMSON now > can we? Why not, it doesn't matter if the case changes over the months/years, it will still be roughly the same size, and the same inside. I'm sure Bob would find a nice case anyway, but it would also be possible to chose the case you desire, when placing your order for a Samson, possible from a brocure of cases available to the builders. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 02:55:41 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:28:26 +0100 Message-Id: <96110516282345@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hello. X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 135 Lines: 5 > How about taking the feminine design route and making it pink. Or luminous green. Yeah, I want it to look like a lollipop man. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 03:16:36 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:57:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Son Of Sam [ROM] Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847328672.629788.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 974 Lines: 18 > >> > I don't think that any programs should be able to alter the > >> > SRAM from within, there should be a set utility to upgrade the > >> > SRAM with a new program / utility. Otherwise everyones programs > >> > may not run consistantly. Major incompatabilities. > how about two blocks of SRAM, one for the system, with a hard switch > as someone sugested, then another with a software switch, for > programs to use. There isn't any need for a hardware switch, not if it was to select which 'front-end' was required, that could be a ram location in the SRAM system variables area, saved by the battery when power removed. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 03:16:37 1996 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 16:34:54 +0100 Message-Id: <96110516345342@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Son Of Sam X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 447 Lines: 12 > The beauty of PC cases is that there are hundreds to choose from, so > the choice is entirely your own, the internals are basically the same > so you find one you like and put your inside's inside. Yeah, but we need to keep it uniform. Look at IBM compatibles - no identity whatsoever. This isn't helped by the fact that any old sod can make them, though. We need a standard case for it - preferably one which doesn't look like most PCs. Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 03:16:37 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:57:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847328671.629789.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1064 Lines: 22 > Explore the Web and read e-mail using your TV, your existing > phone-line, and a Samson Network Computer retailing at 399.99 pounds > > The demand could be huge. Not with that price tag me thinks, I reckon most people would spend say an extra 200 pounds and get a PC that they can do all the office-type work on using programs they are accustomed too, and the kids can play all the latest games that they are always talking about. Honestly I don't see the Samson or Samgrandson having any real marketability. I cannot be made competative at a competative price. I think that the only peple that would buy it are 'old' computer hobbiests like Spectrum / Sam / CBM users or possible the electronics enthusiast. -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 03:16:47 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:57:41 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMson marketing Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847328668.629778.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 937 Lines: 16 > Remember, we can't even think about marketing SAMson without > software (especially games) ready for it. *THAT* was, IMHO, *THE* > problems with SAM in the first place. Being late didn't really have > that much to do with it (although it did help)! Yep, I think that did bugger up the Sam market, all the hype about games comming out then not turning up for months, very little new arriving. I thought that Enigma Variations did a good job and a brave job of creating a few games, my favorite was Defenders of the Earth, and Spere was crap, expecially after all the hype - -MODE 2 >:-( -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 04:26:15 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:57:41 +0000 Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <847328667.629775.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1227 Lines: 24 > ;>>PC layout is OK (just make sure the Control key is next to the A, > not ;>>the Caps lock key! And put Edit out of the way so you don't > press it ;>>accidentally instead of shift...). ;>> ;>But the > Caps-Lock is always next to the A key. > > Not on sun sparcstation keyboards. I agree with ian. Control should > be to the left of A, it makes control commands ( If we're going to > have something like vi or similar..) a hell of a lot easier. Sorry, but i reckon they should be standard PC style, because that is what most people will get used to in general home/work life, after they have left Uni. The trouble is we all get used to a certain type of keyboard layout, and are reluctant to change it. Does anyone know if the Sun/Unix keyboards are a standard 5pin Din keyboard connector, and are they a compatable interface, so able to plug in whichever is desired ?? -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 08:16:29 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 03:12:59 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961107031259_1249107259@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: NS16000? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 306 Lines: 12 In a message dated 06/11/96 18:47:20, you write: >Has anyone looked at the NS16000 chips? When I was at school we had a board >the used one, and as far ar I can remember it understood most Z80 >instructions. > >Samsboss >The One And Only Don't think it is still available - but I may be wrong. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 08:16:30 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 03:14:00 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961107031359_1914831548@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Go a bundle... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2640 Lines: 56 In a message dated 06/11/96 19:18:54, you write: >Hello, > >Samsboss recently suggested that bundling games etc. would not >attract customers. Well, you'll have to bundle SOMETHING. Look at the >SAM when it was first released - I got a demo cassette with FLASH on >and a crap MGT graphics demo. I didn't even get a flippin' emulator! >The GUI (or WIMP - I'm not trying to start *that* one up again) will >have to come with the machine, as will the CLI and, perhaps, a >cut-down version of our killer application. Also, basic Word >Processors, graphics packages (I think SAMPaint could easily hold >it's own here - but then again I never was much good at graphics), >spreadsheets (Campion? - I've never seen it so I'm not sure) and >something lke SC_Filer. If you released all these with the machine in >some sort of cut-down form, or made sure that upgraded and updated >version of them were available for the users AS SOON AS THEY BOUGHT >THE MACHINE then you'd have an instant software market aswell. > >In summary, I think bundling SOME things with the machine gains more >than it loses. I'm unsure about games though - they are of the ilk >meaning that some love them and other s hate them so perhaps it would >be best to let people buy there own (or put money off vouchers in the >box to encourage them to buy the ones that are available). > >My other point is that, if this machine IS to go ahead, then we HAVE >to have some software ready BEFORE IT IS RELEASED! We can't do a SAM >and just hope that everybody will buy the machine and then write the >material to keep the market going. Of course, some of this will be >overcome if we have 80%+ SAM compatibiliy (and don't query the 80% >figure, I just dreamed it up!) as we already have a fairly >substantial software base with, in my opinion, some very high quality >software available. Can I stick my nose in here. I agree, with both of you.... Some software, of mass appeal, should go with the machine. But I think the Wndows approach could be the right one. Give a few /simple/ games (show off the graphics a bit but don' t detract from commercial software) and some simple utilities (improved versions of those in driver?) and yes, if it can be done, a web browser. Everyone happy - the new owner, because s/he has something to fiddle with from the start, - the software companies, because they can leap in with instant sales, - what could be better. > >And DMZ, is it really wise to talk the SAM down on a SAM USERS >mailing list? :-) We know where you live... > > >Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) >"They call me Mad The Swine" > > Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 08:38:02 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 03:35:27 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961107033526_1483231739@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Could Everyone Please Spare The Time To Read This From Bob. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4313 Lines: 89 Everyone please read this. BUT DO NOT REPLY USING THIS HEADING - invent your own. (sorry, but this heading business is doing my headin) Right. Could I just point out a couple of small things. There are two ways to reach the SAMSON goal. Both equaly valid, and I would expect on a list like this to see exponents of both. Route 1 is to take the nice little blue(and black) footed friend we have, develop new ideas by building boards that go on the back (with maybe the odd mod or two inside) and end up with a working and 'tried and tested' machine, that can then be shrunk onto one (or more) boards (smaller, more compact, with bodges removed) that can go in a case and be called the SAMSON. Route 2 is to come up with all the ideas and then spend just as long, if not longer because problems will compound each other, designing the new board and arrive at 'more-or-less' the same SAMSON. I have opted for route 1, not because it is (in itself) more valid but because we get some bits built along the way, which means that people can get on with software development. Imagine, please, that the original SAM had been available in this 'tag on the bits' form to go on the Spectrum some months earlier. People would have been able to get used to the new screen layouts, the new sound chip and the other bits well before the new machine came out. I'm not saying that everything can be done in this way - but much can - and at a far lower initial price (in fact it could become self financing if enough of the little boards can be sold along the way). And that brings us to money. At this time there is no budget, because there is no money - I said that right at the start. But if we can stuff the bits and pieces together in a case and show off the working prototype - then there may be money. If there is FANTASTIC. But even if there is not, at least we will have developed a better SAM that others can use if they are prepared to but up with a lot of interfaces on the back of their Coupe. I think a couple of people have started to get way ahead of things over the last week or so. We have to learn to walk first. We even have to prove that we can co-operate enough to get a single small product out. Can the hardware person get the design done, can the software man keep to a deadline? We cannot realistically talk about building a new machine until we can prove we can build a small interface together. I had an email some weeks back where someone said that he hoped I would be able to use the talant that existed in the people on this mailing list. Well, the chance for everyone now exists. Even without West Coast, I will try to fund the production of any boards that lead us (by however small a step) towards the new SAM. Right, with that said, here is the current state of the design. Not yet fixed in stone - but firming up quite nicely. ======================================================= There is the SAM, with its Z80B and ASIC. If you are running a SAM program then this is where it runs. Add to that a buffer board so we don't overload the address/data lines. Add on a 128K (to 512K) SRAM board to page out the V3 ROM inside. This provides room for a rework of the ROM, DOS, HDOS and room for a few other things. Add to this a processor board which, by the looks of it, will have the Z380 plus its own FlashRom/SRAM and its own RAM. You don't run SAM Basic in this, this is for machine code in the begining. It will communicate with the SAM and the graphics card through buffers. Add to that a Graphics/Sound card, again possibly with some RAM/SRAM to run it. ==================================================== OK so far? Now a few extra points that have been thought of. Each new board shouldl use a 96 way connector so that the extra 32 lines can be allocated for new signals between boards. All boards will have through connection so there is no need for two-ups ect. Some things may change when everything goes together onto a SAMSON board, but for the moment my main area of concern is how to handle the inter-processor buffers that will be needed. I have a fair idea, but would welcome ideas. Well, for now, this has been long enough. I'm not trying to dampen things down, even the wildest ideas can contain an suggestion of how to solve a problem - so keep going. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 09:26:50 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107092254.00931cd0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 09:22:54 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Oh, i don't know... z80 or something Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 371 Lines: 14 At 05:24 PM 11/6/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: O > >Here's a question, for no reason... >How come the Z80 has two different opcodes for LD A,(HL)? >(the decimal 126 one and the ED --sommat one) >I think there's more HL stuff with more than one opcode too... >any difference in their speed, etc? >daveee Yes - the one with more than one opcode is oodles slower. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 09:26:51 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107092253.00943aec@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 09:22:53 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The 8 bit SAMSON Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 230 Lines: 11 At 04:41 PM 11/6/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: RO > >Never mind FIDONET. The SAM has its own network - why >don't we try and make that a world standard? >-Andy Please put smileys on the end of all your jokes in future ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 09:26:52 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107092256.0094bee8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 09:22:56 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS parallel Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 653 Lines: 15 At 05:29 PM 11/6/96 +0000, you wrote: >Three processor?? Where did that come from?!! If you are meaning >to help out the z80, then I agree it may be a bit limiting >for hi-res graphics, but no problem! The new processor can do >that. The z80 would be fine for text-based programs and simple >graphics, such as wordprocessors. At the moment the character is >expanded from a bit image to an image suitable for mode 4 - well, >the z80 could have the characters stored in a fast (if memory inefficient) >manner, enabling quick printing. Like used on the text viewer >on the FRED and ENCELADUS disczines. Still too slow for scrolling, mind you... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 09:37:08 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107093340.0092eca4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 09:33:40 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: We Must Have A Modem So There... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 407 Lines: 14 At 05:33 PM 11/6/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: O > >Eh? Why have a SAM-specific modem? Just use a normal >one and build a fast serial port for the SAM. For anyone who wants it, there's a fast serial port for the SAM designed and ready on NVG. Needs more work (I've changed my design since then to reduce the chip count slightly), but it should be a working model if anyone wants to prototype it? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 09:47:14 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:43:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. In-Reply-To: <847328667.629775.0@error.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 409 Lines: 17 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Dean Liversidge wrote: ;> ;>Sorry, but i reckon they should be standard PC style, because that is ;>what most people will get used to in general home/work life, after ;>they have left Uni. ;> Depends what your jobs is really ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 09:50:01 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:46:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Oh, i don't know... z80 or something In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961107092254.00931cd0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 831 Lines: 28 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Simon Cooke wrote: ;>>Here's a question, for no reason... ;>>How come the Z80 has two different opcodes for LD A,(HL)? ;>>(the decimal 126 one and the ED --sommat one) ;>>I think there's more HL stuff with more than one opcode too... ;>>any difference in their speed, etc? ;>>daveee ;> ;>Yes - the one with more than one opcode is oodles slower. ;> ;>Simon ;> I might be going completely mad here, and with no list of opcodes around at the mo' I'm just guessing here, but isn't ED one of the IX indicator opcodes, in other words makes it LD A,(IX) ?? Ignore me if I'm talking s***, but I don't remember noticing two LD A,(HL)'s in my list of opcodes .. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 09:51:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107094739.00958304@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 09:47:39 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Why there was a MODE 2 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 454 Lines: 13 At 04:42 PM 11/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >Mode 2 was there for two reasons. 1) Because it could be done without adding >very much to the logic in the ASIC, and 2) to give compatibility with the >TS2068. I know, because I lent Bruce the 2068 to get it right. It was rumoured (by Chris White) that originally the Mode 2 mode was meant to cater for hardware scrolling -- thus the 8K gap between the screen data and the attributes. Any truth to this? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 09:57:58 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107095158.00951a1c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 09:51:58 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS parallel Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 461 Lines: 18 At 04:43 PM 11/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >Status: > >In a message dated 06/11/96 17:31:35, you write: > >>The only trouble is the 2 new processor strategy for the new part, >>the Z380 and funky graphics processor should use the same memory (if at all >>possible) can a similar tactic be used? > >Why should it use the same memory? That would slow things down. > >Bob. Not only that, but it'd be a nightmare to handle the communication... possibly ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 10:02:17 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107095555.0095b96c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 09:55:55 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Son Of Sam [ROM] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 451 Lines: 12 At 12:57 AM 11/7/96 +0000, you wrote: >There isn't any need for a hardware switch, not if it was to select >which 'front-end' was required, that could be a ram location in the >SRAM system variables area, saved by the battery when power removed. Chinese Whispers strikes again... the hardware switch originally mentioned was to be used to stop unauthorized / accidental overwriting of the Flash ROM / SRAM when not upgrading the firmware. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 10:14:57 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107101219.009361fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 10:12:19 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Oh, i don't know... z80 or something Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 564 Lines: 16 At 09:46 AM 11/7/96 +0000, you wrote: >I might be going completely mad here, and with no list of opcodes around >at the mo' I'm just guessing here, but isn't ED one of the IX indicator >opcodes, in other words makes it LD A,(IX) ?? > >Ignore me if I'm talking s***, but I don't remember noticing two LD >A,(HL)'s in my list of opcodes .. You're thinking of DD (for IX) or FD (for IY). There are much slower equivalents of common opcodes which have an ED prefix, not undocumented, and for no apparent reason. Most manuals just don't bother printing them. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 10:45:17 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:46:37 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611071046.AA02245@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re:Killer apps. Internet in the home X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 467 Lines: 14 > Good point, 28800 is now the standard most web pages are being designed for. > Funny, evey time one group of people work out how to make something go faster > - another group work out how to slow it down. Errr...web pages aren't 'desiged' for any particular baud rate, besides, the way Internet works nowadays, the modem is seldom the bottlenec. > > But ISDN? In the home? Why not? For providing services, it's crutial. Though, a bit low on bandwith. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 10:47:43 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:47:58 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611071047.AA02248@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 106 Lines: 5 > If you want Unix, why don't you just say Unix? :-) Some don't seem to appriciate the idea. :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:13:03 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:20:42 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611071020.KAA05269@quintilian.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel - texmode Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: kjsT/zKBpKqkRwS3vYA6GQ== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2096 Lines: 73 > >At the moment the character is > > expanded from a bit image to an image suitable for mode 4 - well, > > the z80 could have the characters stored in a fast (if memory inefficient) > > manner, enabling quick printing. Like used on the text viewer > > on the FRED and ENCELADUS disczines. > > -Andy > Remember Simon's Butterly Print thingo? I reckon that should be used. > (equally suitable for 64-char and 32-char printing, using the > following data format: > R1C1 > R3C1 > R5C1 > R7C1 > R7C2 > R5C2 > R3C2 > R1C2 > R2C2 > R4C2 > R6C2 > R8C2 > R8C1 > R6C1 > R4C1 > R2C1 > (R=row, C=column, where each row is a line of pixels and each > column is 4*pixels column, based on the 8x8 character set) > > == then again, who ever said we need to use an 8x8 character set for > the text mode?! > > davee > +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ > | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | > | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | > +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ Errmmmm.. Well, slightly in advance on Simon, my own character printing routine which worked with 64 column text ( Si's was developed completely independantly and worked, as far as I am aware, with 80 columns ) used the following table: R1C1 R3C1 R3C2 R5C2 R5C1 R7C1 R7C2 R8C2 R8C1 R6C1 R6C2 R4C2 R4C1 R2C1 R2C2 R1C2 Which is one hellava lot more efficient. It also used global and local total register optimisation, and a character jump table scheme which in all means that it updates any full text screen about a frame faster than full screen scrolling using LDI!! ( nb it could scroll a text screen **that** much faster ) The routine was a code builder which built a printing routine from any character data. Funnily enough, I was considering rewriting it only today, 'cause I just thought of an extra possible optimisation, so's if any of my compatriots at MNEMOTECH would care to mail me the ASCII of the source that I gave out ( remember I don't have my SAM ) I'll be only too happy to get on with it.... DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:13:10 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:38:37 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611071038.KAA05281@quintilian.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: tyWAosgqK3OYMQBrT3RA8A== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1514 Lines: 40 > Hello, > > > > (1) **A Level of funding available is decided on** > > > > > > > We could say "everyone who wants a SAMson give us 100 quid for > > development fees, then give us the 199 quid later" and then we > > all nip of to Barbados. Or Clacton-on-Sea more likely... > > Well, I'd be game for that - if I had a definite list of specs > infront of me (and a leymans guide to what they all mean!) > > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) > "They call me Mad The Swine" Hokay:- (1) Z80B - proccessor capable of running at 6 million cycles per second, where each instruction the machine carries out takes an average of 12 cycles. Vaunted by Bob as the way of the future, ignored by serious coders who say it is too slow. (2) Z380 - proccessor capable of running at silly speeds where each instruction takes an average of 1.5 cycles, and whose instructions are compatible with the Z80B apart from a few really obscure ones which nobody really used beacuse they were too slow, and one or two which where only used by Si in demos to confuse people trying to disassemble them, and who now is really annoyed that he can't have things both ways by having a Z380 machine *and* have his demos running on them. (3) Pedantic - someone who writes in to mailing lists with huge streams of rubbish in the form of a 'leymans guide' in the vain hope that someone won't take him seriously and may even find him mildly amusing. :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:13:10 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:45:26 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611071045.KAA05290@quintilian.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson: CPU and (Tv)u(TV') (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: Rqim7V2PdfqjksWq7KufQg== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 355 Lines: 16 [snip] > > note that nobody has ever really known *exactly* how fast the Sam's Z80B > > goes, until David Z wrote his list for MNEMOtech > > I knew long before that. [snip] Obviously you're **somebody**, then.... OK, to be fair, you did, and so did quite a few other people. ( And they were a hell of a lot more accurate than me, too..... ) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:13:11 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:29:38 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611071029.KAA05275@quintilian.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: d8ZMfjk+F1u2El/JXUn7JQ== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2846 Lines: 75 > > Can I suggest the following approach to design the new SAM :- > > > > (1) **A Level of funding available is decided on** > > > This is important. > > > (2) Those **capable** of designing the new machine come up with various > > working solutions **within that limit**. > > > I hope I am not taking this more personally than it was intended. > As someone wrote recently 'nothing new happens with computers' I take this as > implying 'we need new, fresh ideas to advance ahead of the rest'. True, I know > little of hardware, but we all have an opinion. If someone who > is 'incapable' suggests a good and novel idea no one should ignore it because of > its source. > -WOW! that almost sounded political! Sorry. Nope, it wasn't intended to be a personal comment of any nature. Just general terms. Yes, I totally agree that everyone should have a say. I mean, why not? > > (3) The designs are considered by SAM users in general, who decide whether > > or not the finished machine would be acceptable, in terms of compatibility > > and general new features. > > > At this point would it not be more productive for the 'SAM users in general' > (well, on this list anyway) to suggest room for improvement in the design? Yup. > > (4) Actually get around to **doing** something, rather than have the current > > problem of having unqualified remarks by various parties thrown into the > > debate. > > > True, we need to actualy decide on a plan and execute it. Trouble is that only > one complete plan has been put forward (I was only discussing how that plan > could be integrated with the current memory setup, someone stated that such > co-processing as that idea implied would be impractical I urged re-consideration > of that point). > > We all want to see the machine completed more than we want to talk about it. > But we must ensure that the machine we do get built is what both we and the > market wants. Errmmm... Sorry if you might have felt that parts of the above were personally targetted, I was speaking generally. As for the ASIC limitation, I was considering that even if the ASIC has to be included, the very nature of any new machine should be such that it is **designed** to be replaced by a **lot** more powerful system ( or even a slightly more powerful one ) by placing it on a small daughter board... > > Until that date arrives, I see no further point in doing any further work on > > the SAM. > > > I am sorry. > > > DMZ > > --- > Numb. Wellllll.... that and the fact I haven't got my machine with me and I'm spending far too much time trying to figure out PC graphics cards and etc etc.... PS Did you know that you can blow up a PC monitor by overstepping the graphic cards' output level to above maximum in conbination with several other tricks? :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:13:11 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:49:31 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611071049.KAA05294@quintilian.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Oh, i don't know... z80 or something Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: L0+pz+obCvZ3R/WnHcvMiA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 730 Lines: 23 > >I might be going completely mad here, and with no list of opcodes around > >at the mo' I'm just guessing here, but isn't ED one of the IX indicator > >opcodes, in other words makes it LD A,(IX) ?? > > > >Ignore me if I'm talking s***, but I don't remember noticing two LD > >A,(HL)'s in my list of opcodes .. > > You're thinking of DD (for IX) or FD (for IY). > > There are much slower equivalents of common opcodes which have an ED prefix, > not undocumented, and for no apparent reason. Most manuals just don't bother > printing them. > > Simon > Unlike some top-quality publications, which not only list them but also give the relevant timings... :) ( I hope... can't remember whether I bothered or not... ) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:32:08 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:25:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <327FD81C.5D5A@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1122 Lines: 23 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Paul Walker wrote: > > I've got this. I'm using it to code SMIDIP. I can't see why it would need > > changing the tables for the SAM... For the SAMson, yes. Especially for Z380. > > If it's working for you, then well done - but I wrote some code both in Comet and > in Tasm, compared the output, and it was totally different. This *might* explain why the hell I can't get the bloody thing working! I spent hours yesterday staring at my PC screen and printouts looking for my "bug". I was hoping to get SMIDIP playing tunes this weekend... :/ But, hey.. At least if I get out the bugs it SHOULD play midi files OK since I managed to write a little "tune" (2 notes..) in BASIC using OUT statements.. :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:32:09 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107111451.00935330@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:14:51 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS parallel - texmode Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1754 Lines: 55 At 10:20 AM 11/7/96 GMT, Somebody Who Wasn't Dave Whose Name I Deleted By Mistake wrote: >> Remember Simon's Butterly Print thingo? I reckon that should be used. >> (equally suitable for 64-char and 32-char printing, using the >> following data format: [deleted list of rows and columns] >> (R=row, C=column, where each row is a line of pixels and each >> column is 4*pixels column, based on the 8x8 character set) Actually, I think you'll find that the table was actually: R0C1 R2C1 R4C1 R6C1 R7C1 R5C1 R3C1 R1C1 R1C2 R3C2 R5C2 R7C2 R6C2 R4C2 R2C2 R0C2 ---> address for start of next character (slight optimisation where possible). And then Dave Wrote This Bit: >Errmmmm.. Well, slightly in advance on Simon, my own character printing routine >which worked with 64 column text ( Si's was developed completely independantly >and worked, as far as I am aware, with 80 columns ) used the following table: > [snip] > >Which is one hellava lot more efficient. It also used global and local total >register optimisation, and a character jump table scheme which in all means >that it updates any full text screen about a frame faster than full screen >scrolling using LDI!! ( nb it could scroll a text screen **that** much faster ) >The routine was a code builder which built a printing routine from any character >data. Well, I ain't got the register optimisation, but mine was (a) 80 column, and (b) in user-definable color. Dave's, of course, was 64 column and mono. And if it'd work in Termite I'd use his instead :) BTW: The down one side, up again, across, down, up is the *fastest* way to do it if you're doing 80 columns -- namely because of the masking that has to be done on the right hand column for even-x-positioned characters. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:32:09 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107112033.0093d8b4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:20:33 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Plea! Plea! Plea! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 388 Lines: 14 Hi everyone, Well, it's that time again: since no-one (other than Dave Gommeren) has offered to do articles for Based On An Idea, I have to ask: Would anyone be willing to do an article for Based On An Idea? I'm up to my eyeballs in work at the moment, so it'd really help out. If people want, I can post up the list of wanted stuff -- helpful if you're stuck for ideas... Ta, Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:32:09 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611071124.LAA05838@trajan.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Mode 2 for emulation? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:24:54 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961106164255_1847627014@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 6, 96 04:42:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1051 Lines: 28 > > In a message dated 06/11/96 16:06:59, you write: > > >What possesed MGT to think anyone would use mode 2 for games! It may be > >better > >than the speccy screen but we upgraded into a new leage! We had to compare > >ourselfs with Amiga programmers. In this range Mode 4 was the minimum! > >Will we have the same problem soon as we move into the PC range? > > -Not if this newsgroup can help it! > > > > Mode 2 was there for two reasons. 1) Because it could be done without adding > very much to the logic in the ASIC, and 2) to give compatibility with the > TS2068. I know, because I lent Bruce the 2068 to get it right. > > Bob > Why did no one (to my knowledge) go the whole hog and write a specific TS emulator? There were loads of Z80 based machines with circuitary simmilar the the Speccy so why didn't we get a Jupiter Ace emulator? Jupitor Ace was the Forth based machine I think, is its ROM in the public domain yet? If so then we may want to put SAMbasic, SAMGUI, C(++), Java AND FORTH on the flash memory! ;o) Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:32:10 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611071114.LAA05821@trajan.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:14:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611061957.AA14382@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 6, 96 07:57:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2061 Lines: 44 > > On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:18:04 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > > The things all of the major GUIs have in common is some sort of menu bar. > > Win'95 has it at the bottom, the Macs have it at the top and Suns have a > > much nicer moveable one. > > Well I'm on a Sun and I've never seen a menu bar on it... > > imc > I was refering to the on the 'Front panel' in the 'Common Desktop Environment' True it is not strictly a menu bar but that is the purpose it provides. This set up is probably the nicest way to present such options. Infact this environment is probably the one I would chose SamGUI to be closest too. The advantages of such a front pannel over a menu bar are great. I have never had to use the desktops 'X-windows' style 'press-the-right-mouse-button-menus' (which you can also easily refer to as a 'menu bar'). Advantages of the front pannel: i,always there when you want it (just like all of the others). ii,It is moveable -much nicer than a fixed bar at the top or bottom. iii,It has a nice way of presenting the most commonly used options straight away and others in simple to get to sub menus. iv,Easy to add and configure buth the contence of the sub menus and the icons present on its surface If designing a similar system for use in SamGUI I would change: i,Give the option for the user to change its size and shape ii,It is only possible to get sub menus using markers at the top of the bar. If would be nice if you could add sub menus to extend from any edge of the structure. iii,Give more ignowledgement when an icon on the surface has been selected. On a slow machine you don't know if it realised you clicked on an icon as it takes so long for the window to open. I usualy click a few times before the window has time to open so end up with 5 or 6 copy of each window! iv, Allow it to be moved more easily, If you can have sub menues coming from all sides it may be hard to pick it up and move it. v,Give it a decent file manager! -cross it with MacOS Any other ideas out there? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:34:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107112811.00937b98@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:28:11 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Mode 2 for emulation? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 200 Lines: 7 At 11:24 AM 11/7/96 +0000, you wrote: >Why did no one (to my knowledge) go the whole hog and write a specific >TS emulator? Perhaps because they were even rarer than SAM's in this country... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:42:06 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:35:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Mode 2 for emulation? In-Reply-To: <199611071124.LAA05838@trajan.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 231 Lines: 8 > There were loads of Z80 based machines with circuitary simmilar the the Speccy > so why didn't we get a Jupiter Ace emulator? I'm sure I saw a brief mention in Format of someone who had written a Jupiter Ace emulator? Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:43:35 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:34:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: I spared the time to read that from Bob In-Reply-To: <961107033526_1483231739@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 664 Lines: 14 Agreed - Route 1 is the way to go. If you tried to produce everything at once, by the time you had something workable, half the SAM users will have given up and disappeared, and the other half will baulk at the price. We need an idea of what the end result will be, so that intermediate boards don't cause huge problems in the end. However the actual details of each stage can be worked out when we get there. It also means that should a catastrophe occur, and the final stage is never reached, we still have something to show for our efforts. Other than that, I think the details you posted were a fair summary of the general consensus of ideas. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 11:50:53 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:44:38 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Tv or not TV (Nev read this) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9611061932.AA06366@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1183 Lines: 31 On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 23:06:30 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > > Seven doesn't divide by three either. > > Perhaps the sixteenth bit could stand for bright, in the same way that > > bit3 works in the CLUT at the moment. > > That would be silly. If you have five bits of each colour then a bright > would be a useless added complication. Did I say it wasn't? Only that a "bright" bit would be nothing new. > > Personally though, I'd much rather address one pixel as no more than one > > byte - particularly if we might get left still with an 8-bit processor. > > There is not the slightest possibility that a high resolution/colour > graphics board could be adequately serviced by the Z80B. > > If you want more than 256 colours on the screen at the same time you have to > go for 16 or 24 bits. How else are you going to do it? And don't say line > interrupts! Will you read what I write? I've said we DON'T (probably) need more than 256 colours on the screen. (But that those 256 may be taken from a truecolour-ish palette.) And that is for the very reason that the processor couldn't really handle it. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 12:24:51 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:17:18 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611071217.AA02631@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 651 Lines: 20 > Hi everyone, > > Well, it's that time again: since no-one (other than Dave Gommeren) has > offered to do articles for Based On An Idea, I have to ask: > > Would anyone be willing to do an article for Based On An Idea? I'm up to my > eyeballs in work at the moment, so it'd really help out. Where your eyeballs end, my work has only begun. Other than that I'd love to help...:/ > > If people want, I can post up the list of wanted stuff -- helpful if you're > stuck for ideas... I started on an LZH compression thingy some aeons ago, stranded on the DOS bit, wrot my own routines, but didn't have the time to finish. Perhaps some day? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 12:32:00 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:26:53 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! + Bob's message In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961107112033.0093d8b4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2211 Lines: 44 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Simon Cooke wrote: > Would anyone be willing to do an article for Based On An Idea? I'm up to my > eyeballs in work at the moment, so it'd really help out. Well, I haven't really got much time either, but if you wanted me to start on something like: How to decompress a MNEMOcompress(v2) file, or even something about how that algorithm works in the first place. (If I can remember enough). Er, two separate months' articles? I was also thinking about writing up technical docs for WinDOS, when that's finished. But... is there any point in me working on Z80B WinDOS when I may need to start Z380 WinDOS sometime soon? (I can't just port it over, unless you want a system which is hideously inefficient in terms of memory and speed) All this about needing software BEFORE the big release is absolutely correct - I think we need to design the boards and produce a developers' run ASAP. (And not just because I'd get my hands on one first) NB. I did read Bob's message, and (to my vague surprise) did actually agree with nearly all of it. We do want to plug extra boards into the back. We do want a Z380 as the programmer's main processor (because it's far faster than an 8-bit but still similar enough - why use a totally different one? It would hardly a Sam then, and I don't want to have to learn a totally different machine language) What I'd also say is that the Z380 probably wants at least a meg RAM connected to it and probably expandable (there's no problem with paging, at last). Unfortunately, from what I understand of the design constraints, there is a requirement that the Z380 be able to access Sam's internal memory, since (at first, at least) the display will be generated from existing circuitry in the Sam, accessing the internal memory. To read from or write to internal memory, the Z380 will need to run slowly. However, using the external memory should pose no constraints on speed. So running most programs will be much faster, even for screen-intensive applications - for every write to the screen there will normally be one or maybe two reads from the instruction memory. Hopefully, the electronics of this will be not *too* difficult to sort out. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 12:38:28 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:36:41 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam-users Subject: SamSon Interrupts Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 568 Lines: 15 All that about sample players has just reminded me of one thing - even if we don't use line interrupts for the screen, we still need them for other time dependant things like, er, sample players. What would be lovely is an almost-LINE INT but which continued to send interrupts during the border area. That way it would be much easier to do a sample player without having to spend half the time counting. Or, perhaps more flexible but probably harder to implement, would be some user definable time based interrupt. I'll bet Stefan's with me on this one. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 12:46:29 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:43:23 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam-users Subject: Z380 Spectrum compatability Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 628 Lines: 15 Don't talk to me about PC Spectrum emulators - they have different problems. Instructions are more likely to be slow than fast. And if they have the equivalent to frame interrupts, I can imagine them running at 60Hz instead of 50Hz. So it comes as no surprise to me that a PC can't run Spectrum software properly. I still maintain that any game which relies on smooth movement, such as Batz 'n' Ballz, Astroball, Sophistry, will rely on interrupts for timings and would not be hindered by faster processing. The rest probably want to run faster anyway - and may still have a maximum speed limit, based on interrupts. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 12:53:18 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! + Bob's message To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:47:13 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 7, 96 12:26:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1071 Lines: 22 > Unfortunately, from what I understand of the design constraints, there is > a requirement that the Z380 be able to access Sam's internal memory, since > (at first, at least) the display will be generated from existing circuitry > in the Sam, accessing the internal memory. To read from or write to > internal memory, the Z380 will need to run slowly. However, using the > external memory should pose no constraints on speed. So running most > programs will be much faster, even for screen-intensive applications - for > every write to the screen there will normally be one or maybe two reads > from the instruction memory. > The Z380 would need to be slowed down to 6MHz when accessing the SAM 64K memory window,but as you say, this shouldn't matter too much since the instructions for manipulating that slow RAM will be held in the fast RAM (which runs at the Z380's speed) so the overall effect will be minimised - we could even provide 512K of SRAM to shadow the SAM's RAM is your pocket could afford it! -Andy ps: I was being serious about the SAM network..... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:00:07 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Z380 Spectrum compatability To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:52:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 7, 96 12:43:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 471 Lines: 11 > I still maintain that any game which relies on smooth movement, such as > Batz 'n' Ballz, Astroball, Sophistry, will rely on interrupts for timings > and would not be hindered by faster processing. The rest probably want to > run faster anyway - and may still have a maximum speed limit, based on > interrupts. > I hope that's the case. Those that don't will have to run on the unexpanded SAM, and the programmers will have to learn their lesson for the future! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:00:07 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:54:31 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! + Bob's message In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 607 Lines: 19 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > The Z380 would need to be slowed down to 6MHz when accessing > the SAM 64K memory window,but as you say, this shouldn't > matter too much since the instructions for manipulating > that slow RAM will be held in the fast RAM (which runs > at the Z380's speed) so the overall effect will be minimised > - we could even provide 512K of SRAM to shadow the SAM's > RAM is your pocket could afford it! > -Andy No wonder the traffic on this list is so high - we just send round paraphrases of each other's postings! ;) But I'm glad you see my point. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:21:47 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:21:41 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611071321.AA02951@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SamSon Interrupts X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 397 Lines: 9 > What would be lovely is an almost-LINE INT but which continued to send > interrupts during the border area. That way it would be much easier to do > a sample player without having to spend half the time counting. Or, > perhaps more flexible but probably harder to implement, would be some user > definable time based interrupt. That is a good idea! Does Z380 have a notion of timers? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:24:08 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:25:04 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611071325.AA02957@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! + Bob's message X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 476 Lines: 12 > The Z380 would need to be slowed down to 6MHz when accessing > the SAM 64K memory window,but as you say, this shouldn't > matter too much since the instructions for manipulating > that slow RAM will be held in the fast RAM (which runs > at the Z380's speed) so the overall effect will be minimised > - we could even provide 512K of SRAM to shadow the SAM's > RAM is your pocket could afford it! Yes, how about a write-through cache? 512K costs nothing these days. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:40:25 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <26436.199611071330@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Assemblers To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:29:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611061650.QAA10199@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 6, 96 04:50:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 433 Lines: 9 > >in Tasm, compared the output, and it was totally different. -- > How can assembles have different output for the same instructions? Easily. TASM is a cross assembler for the PC, and comes with table files for lots (and lots) of processors. I don't know what the codes are for the Sam, and couldn't be bothered to compile lots of stuff with comet, so just tried using the standard Z80 table... and it didn't work. That's how. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:40:40 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:35:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Oh, i don't know... z80 or something Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <69140D41ED6@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 474 Lines: 9 Nope.. the ED is like, extended something. FD and DD are the IX / IY extensions... There's a full Z80 opcode list on the web somewhere, but I lost the URL. But I'll be putting it up on my site any second now... davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:40:47 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <26783.199611071333@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:32:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611061615.QAA02985@caligula.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 6, 96 04:15:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 181 Lines: 8 > Why don't we provide tools to use Fidonet too? The good thing about it is that you don't need special tools as such, just a bog standard terminal program. Like Termite. Simon? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:41:03 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <26607.199611071331@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SAMSON Keyboard. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:31:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611061650.QAA10190@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 6, 96 04:50:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 260 Lines: 7 > PC keyboards don't need a keymap, they send a number of codes. > Just got a code list with my nice new keyboard. Scan codes, yes. But writing a handler for them is /not/ nice, believe me... BTW - is your code list a scan-code list, or just an ASCII list? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:50:11 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:50:06 +0000 Subject: Re: SamSon Interrupts Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <691803D435B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 579 Lines: 10 Here's a question ... why would we need line-interrupts to control the speed of a sample player or tracker... if we're going to have a whizzy sound/graphics card (or was this idea scrapped at some stage?) Can we not also / instead (whatever) have a counter/timer circuit? That'd be nice, easy, useful and cheap. Bonus! +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:52:51 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:48:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Digest/ new List/ newsgroup/ Mug Trafficking Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 911 Lines: 25 Once again, 100+ emails waiting for me. *Please* can we either have a seperate mailing list, or a digest form. Or even just have some sort of samson specific subject line so they can be filtered off. (Howabout people adding a SamSon header SamSON: Parrallel :) Yes I am interested in SamSON, but scanning 100 emails a day on the subject, especially when a lot of them are just a previous message repeated in it's full with a single line or 2 appended, is beyond me. It's a shame there isn't a sam news group, threading would be ideal for this sort of discussion. Tim ....@/ BTW. I present have about 2-300 emails on SamSON just sat in a folder whch I've saved until I have a chance to read them. .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:58:13 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:51:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@klein.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson marketing In-Reply-To: <961105115116_1613326027@emout15.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2585 Lines: 63 On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > We do not need bundled anything. But we do need a reasonable range of > software from day one, that is why I'm going the add-it-on-to-SAM route to > start with. OK. I accept that. I was thinking in terms on how we could attack the games playing market. No-body will by the new snazzy super-duper-sega-saturn-mach-2000 if it didn't have a game bundled with it.. > >As soon as we get a decent ANSI C for the SAM, we could have anything we > damn > >well please! :) > > If you believe that, can I interest you in a map I've got to some hidden > treasure - only 10,000 UKP to you. Yes. I believe that! I'm a fairly decent C and Pascal programmer. If we had ANSI C, we could easily port things like ML and Prolog across. Web browsers could be knocked up in a few weeks. Games could be knocked up quickly. The GUI system would be done by now.... I'm a crap Z80 programmer. All of my utility programs are written in BASIC (with some Z80 to speed up stuff). If we had ANSI C, my SMIDIP program would be on release 2 by now... (With the rest of the SMIDIT suite). So, in my opinion, ANSI C for SAM should be a higher priority than SOS... :) As for the map: Could I have it on a two week approval? :) > What you get up to in your own home is none of our business... (grin) I should be so lucky! :) > >Remember, we can't even think about marketing SAMson without software > >(especially games) ready for it. *THAT* was, IMHO, *THE* problems with SAM > in > >the first place. Being late didn't really have that much to do with it > >(although it did help)! > > Umm, not really true. We are all entitled to our own opinions... But, when I was doing my A-Levels, we were comparing Amigas, STs, and SAMs together. I managed to defend the SAM with every argument they threw at me. Hell, I even managed to throw some back at them to the point when I almost convinced a few people to get one. But when they asked me what games were available the only answer I could come up with was "Ermm.. Defenders of the Earth.. Quizball.. That's about it.." - Argument lost - Amigas and STs won. > >I apologise if I seem agro.... > > Accepted. Thanks... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 13:58:19 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:54:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@klein.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Assemblers In-Reply-To: <26436.199611071330@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1091 Lines: 22 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > >in Tasm, compared the output, and it was totally different. -- > > How can assembles have different output for the same instructions? > > Easily. TASM is a cross assembler for the PC, and comes with table files > for lots (and lots) of processors. I don't know what the codes are for the Sam, > and couldn't be bothered to compile lots of stuff with comet, so just > tried using the standard Z80 table... and it didn't work. The SAM has different codes to Z80?? I was under the impression that it WAS a Z80.. How the hell did I get my own CP/M programs working in ProDOS? I need to check my code using the disasseembler in the Lerm Toolkit... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 14:07:11 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:03:27 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611071403.AA03091@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson graphics extra X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 949 Lines: 16 > well if we use the asic then I think we are stuck with shifting lots of > bytes but if we are talking about a NEW graphics card with lots of memory > and and its own processor and stuff then scrolling by changing the address > lines is all done by the hardware that moves the data to the screen. It > 'knows' when it has to wrap or jump arround in the video memory. So yu can > have the 24bit colour 1024xwhatever and even if it is several megs of > memory it would appear to move very fast but would actually stay put. Yes, I know. I asked because I thought we are stuck with the ASIC. As I don't know the interneals of the ASIC, I couldn't tell, but there is at least a theoretical chance that by adding a device which takes an 8 bit value (offset from left) and a 16 bit value (offset from top of bank) which would then override the address-lines provided by the ASIC to address the screen - though, I guess it's more a solder-job... -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 14:33:02 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:12:05 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Problems with my software Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <16F6233329A@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 809 Lines: 19 Hello, > I have opted for route 1, not because it is (in itself) more valid but > because we get some bits built along the way, which means that people can get > on with software development. I agree with all the rest of the message but I can't see how people could design software for the finished SAMSon when tehy may only have one of the boards connected to the back of their Coupe. The only way to design software for the completed SAMSon is to have on, in its entirety, in front of you. Apart from this snag, everythig else Bob said was spot on. If the project gets started, and the SAMSon never reaches competion, at tleast we'll have lots of lovely boards to plug into the back of our machines to soup them up a little. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 14:40:33 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107143315.00945764@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 14:33:15 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Samson graphics extra Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 557 Lines: 14 At 03:03 PM 11/7/96 +0100, you wrote: >Yes, I know. I asked because I thought we are stuck with the ASIC. >As I don't know the interneals of the ASIC, I couldn't tell, but there >is at least a theoretical chance that by adding a device which takes >an 8 bit value (offset from left) and a 16 bit value (offset from >top of bank) which would then override the address-lines provided by the >ASIC to address the screen - though, I guess it's more a solder-job... But how do you differentiate between normal memory access and screen access? Sorry :( Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 14:40:39 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107143311.00946100@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 14:33:11 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SamSon Interrupts Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 550 Lines: 14 At 12:36 PM 11/7/96 +0000, you wrote: >What would be lovely is an almost-LINE INT but which continued to send >interrupts during the border area. That way it would be much easier to do >a sample player without having to spend half the time counting. Or, >perhaps more flexible but probably harder to implement, would be some user >definable time based interrupt. > >I'll bet Stefan's with me on this one. So am I... how about using the COMMS interface's timer system? Should work perfectly... (apart from when Frame ints mis-trigger it...) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 14:40:39 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107143313.00949d4c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 14:33:13 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! + Bob's message Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 839 Lines: 22 At 12:47 PM 11/7/96 +0000, you wrote: >The Z380 would need to be slowed down to 6MHz when accessing ^^^^ == ~3.45MHz >the SAM 64K memory window,but as you say, this shouldn't >matter too much since the instructions for manipulating >that slow RAM will be held in the fast RAM (which runs >at the Z380's speed) so the overall effect will be minimised >- we could even provide 512K of SRAM to shadow the SAM's >RAM is your pocket could afford it! >-Andy That's the accelerator design down to a "T" basically... (though we'd use DRAM rather than SRAM... but the prototype uses SRAM). >ps: I was being serious about the SAM network..... Ummm... why? All the SAM network is is a serial data stream, MIDI compliant, running over differentially driven lines... Why bother? It's just RS232... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 14:40:40 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961107143314.00947278@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 14:33:14 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! + Bob's message Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 598 Lines: 18 At 02:25 PM 11/7/96 +0100, you wrote: >Status: > >> The Z380 would need to be slowed down to 6MHz when accessing >> the SAM 64K memory window,but as you say, this shouldn't >> matter too much since the instructions for manipulating >> that slow RAM will be held in the fast RAM (which runs >> at the Z380's speed) so the overall effect will be minimised >> - we could even provide 512K of SRAM to shadow the SAM's >> RAM is your pocket could afford it! > >Yes, how about a write-through cache? 512K costs nothing >these days. If you're willing to come up with the hardware to do it.... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 14:59:46 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:54:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Digest/ new List/ newsgroup/ Mug Trafficking In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 373 Lines: 16 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Tim Paveley wrote: ;> ;>It's a shame there isn't a sam news group, threading would be ideal for ;>this sort of discussion. ;> Try using vm in emacs then you can read your mail like newsgroups ;) Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 15:02:58 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611071453.OAA02085@hadrian.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS the whole thing... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:53:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961104134923.0091d7ec@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 4, 96 01:49:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1858 Lines: 44 > > Here's a question ... why would we need line-interrupts to control > the speed of a sample player or tracker... if we're going to have a > whizzy sound/graphics card (or was this idea scrapped at some stage?) > > Can we not also / instead (whatever) have a counter/timer circuit? > That'd be nice, easy, useful and cheap. Bonus! > +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ > | doubleback : complete bobbins | torus?- 1997? it'll | > | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | > +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ > This is as I understand the lists grand scheme for the machine. It is a list based on the current ideas so includes everything (hardware) I can think of! The cost of this lot is likely to be a bit higher then the estimated 399 pounds (or 299 prefered). If there is something new to you here then the chances are that your E-mail account is buggered! i,Current (unaccelerated) Sam ii,A super fast (16bit?) Z380 based main section with its own (say 2 meg of memory) iii,A graphics card capable of up to 1024 X 768 pixel resolution and (or!) upto a 16.7 million colours on screen at once (without palette interupts!). This card would have its own memory (2 meg as standard?) and its own RISK based processor (and Hardware scrolling/sprites?) iv,A sound card using the same memory (and processor?) as the graphics. not much has been said about this but it may have 8 stereo DACs at up to 44.1kHz designed for a PC soundblaster, Wavetables have also been suggested (Why don't we increase the size of the flash (or ROM) and put them on the same chip as the opperating system?). Is it time to start deciding what parts we want and what don't (on an entry level machine at least!)? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 15:03:28 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! + Bob's message To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:54:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961107143313.00949d4c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 7, 96 02:33:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 255 Lines: 7 > >ps: I was being serious about the SAM network..... > > Ummm... why? All the SAM network is is a serial data stream, MIDI compliant, > running over differentially driven lines... Why bother? It's just RS232... > Err.... I was actually being facetious From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 15:19:21 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:15:04 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 909 Lines: 21 > > I think the key words here are "AS LITTLE writing as possible.". > > Okay, you'd have to have a LITTLE text with the icons, but most of > > the time it wouldn't needed. > > Oddly enough, that's what I thought as well. However, Windows (and OS/2) /do/ only > have small amounts of writing, usually just the name of the program. For example, > Vista-eXceed/W is in the bottom left. I don't consider that excessive, do you? Yet > that's the longest name on these things, or at least the longest I've /found/. > > (Not necessarily the same thing :) > > Paul I think the problem with Windows 95 is as follows... On a decent GUI, everything should be Icon based with a little text as a backup/a little info which you may need sometimes. Win' '95 uses massive great columns of text under the 'START' button, with the icons used secondarily/as a backup method. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 15:21:56 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:17:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS the whole thing... In-Reply-To: <199611071453.OAA02085@hadrian.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2046 Lines: 46 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, SL Harding wrote: > iii,A graphics card capable of up to 1024 X 768 pixel resolution > and (or!) upto a 16.7 million colours on screen at once > (without palette interupts!). > This card would have its own memory (2 meg as standard?) > and its own RISK based processor > (and Hardware scrolling/sprites?) RISK processor? eh? :) Is it because it's a RISKy business programming one? Has anyone tried programming the PIC RISC based microcontroller...? It has about 32 instructions... Oops. That is a bit off topic... On the point of building a Z80 multiprocessor machine... Can't see how you are going to implement that.... What about using Z86 microcontrollers? They have inbuilt memory. Should be Z80 compliant. SPI for talking to each other (or other SPI devises) (SPI = Serial Peripheral Interface) > iv,A sound card using the same memory (and processor?) as the graphics. > not much has been said about this but it may have 8 stereo DACs > at up to 44.1kHz designed for a PC soundblaster, > Wavetables have also been suggested (Why don't we increase the > size of the flash (or ROM) and put them on the same chip as the > opperating system?). *GULP* All the wavetable patches on the same ROM? That's what I hate about most PC soundcards. They sound crap and you can't update them easily. Not only that, a 128K FlashROM costs approx 10ukp. A decent 16-bit 44.1kHz patch is approx 64K itself.. We need at least one meg in RAM (pref. 2 min.) for sound patches. > Is it time to start deciding what parts we want and what don't (on an entry > level machine at least!)? I agree! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 15:44:57 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:26:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1497 Lines: 31 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, James R Curry wrote: > I think the problem with Windows 95 is as follows... On a decent > GUI, everything should be Icon based with a little text as a backup/a > little info which you may need sometimes. Win' '95 uses massive > great columns of text under the 'START' button, with the icons used > secondarily/as a backup method. I agree. I think we should base the SAM GUI on X-Windows. We could have what ever we want on screen... :) Why don't we go the whole hog and make SAMSON a UNIX based machine!? :) I want something to replace my PC. It's crap.. old.. slow.. and I want to get away from intel, microsoft, ibm, commador, atari, and apple... Hence the reason I dusted off my SAM from the attic. Trouble is, my SAM doesn't have the tools to do what I do on my PC - hence the reason for my call for a decent C compiler. In fact, I think I had better shut up about ANSI C. I've already stated my case and it's getting boring now. I've always followed the rule: Never demand something you can't accomplish yourself... Looks like I've broken my own rules. I'm sorry... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 15:45:18 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 15:37:46 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1245 Lines: 38 > I think the problem with Windows 95 is as follows... > On a decent GUI, everything should be Icon based with > a little text as a backup/a little info which you may > need sometimes. Win' '95 uses massive great columns of > text under the 'START' button, with the icons used > secondarily/as a backup method. All the slagging of Win95's interface just makes me chuckle for one basic reason: "It is how it is because of you*" *However, the "YOU" refers to Americans, and not sensible people :)) When MS were developing Win95 they did, surprisingly, do more than a little bit of research into what the average pod on the street wanted from the interface. The reply came back that users wanted a central starting point to go from and not having to navigate floating groups and folders for programs and files. So they got it. BLAME THE USERS, THE USERS, THE U S E R S !!! And remember kiddies, we are all users in one form or another, no matter what your ego might tell you. On a lighter note, whenever I go past the Microsoft park in Winnersh on the train I always have an urge to flag two fingers at Gate's empire, but that's pretty normal isn't it? :) Dan. BTW: Doesn't NeXTstep have a menu bar - or is it just an icon bar? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 15:54:02 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:45:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 616 Lines: 14 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Dan Doore wrote: > BLAME THE USERS, THE USERS, THE U S E R S !!! When I was doing my work-experience in Southampton Gen Hospital, we had a definition for users: Sad people to test our projects.. :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:23:12 1996 From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199611071615.QAA02402@hadrian.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS the whole thing... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:15:31 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 7, 96 03:17:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1778 Lines: 45 > RISK processor? eh? :) Is it because it's a RISKy business programming one? Has > anyone tried programming the PIC RISC based microcontroller...? It has about 32 > instructions... Oops. That is a bit off topic... > It may BE the topic this time next year! > > iv,A sound card using the same memory (and processor?) as the graphics. > > not much has been said about this but it may have 8 stereo DACs > > at up to 44.1kHz designed for a PC soundblaster, > > Wavetables have also been suggested (Why don't we increase the > > size of the flash (or ROM) and put them on the same chip as the > > opperating system?). > > *GULP* > Is that due to the bad grammer or the topic? ;o) > All the wavetable patches on the same ROM? That's what I hate about most PC > soundcards. They sound crap and you can't update them easily. > > Not only that, a 128K FlashROM costs approx 10ukp. A decent 16-bit 44.1kHz > patch is approx 64K itself.. We need at least one meg in RAM (pref. 2 min.) for > sound patches. > Thats another point, I always thought flashes were slower to read (as well as write!) . About 140 n as opposed to 60-80 units I seem to remember. > > Is it time to start deciding what parts we want and what don't (on an entry > > level machine at least!)? > > I agree! > We don't need hardware scrolling as well as the RISK chip, do we? > -- > ============================================================================= > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | > |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | > |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | > ============================================================================= > > Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:27:23 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:27:00 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Keyboards.. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Lines: 5 All this talk of keyboards.. why not choose a PC one with those 'Windows' keys on. When you press one the machine could display "You must be joking!" and crash. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:35:31 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:32:32 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SOS parallel Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 501 Lines: 13 > > > (1) **A Level of funding available is decided on** > > > > > > > We could say "everyone who wants a SAMson give us 100 quid for > > development fees, then give us the 199 quid later" and then we > > all nip of to Barbados. Or Clacton-on-Sea more likely... > > Well, I'd be game for that - if I had a definite list of specs > infront of me (and a leymans guide to what they all mean!) I'd be okay with that too.. Assuming I have the cash at the time.. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:35:32 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:31:11 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Go a bundle... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 687 Lines: 13 > In summary, I think bundling SOME things with the machine gains more > than it loses. I'm unsure about games though - they are of the ilk > meaning that some love them and other s hate them so perhaps it would > be best to let people buy there own (or put money off vouchers in the > box to encourage them to buy the ones that are available). If you've got 8 serious applications bundled with a machine, 2 games as well is not going to put anyone off. It'll attract more people. The eight serious applications say 'Hey, this is a serious machine." and they 2 games say 'If you're stressed, you can do something recreational with it.'. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:42:12 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:42:14 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Mug Trafficking... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1045 Lines: 26 . > So is there any chance of a digest, sent out automatically when the > incoming mail buffer fills up to about 100k or something? By grabbing > the subject lines and putting them into a list at the top of the > piece, one could see what was relevant and what wasn't. > > Am I alone in this thought, or do others sympathise with my views now > that the mailing list has exploded into hyperaction? > > And is anybody else online at the moment? (8.35pm GMT) I sympathise with these views, and share them somewhat.. (I only seem to recieve one or two mails in an hour when I'm online..) However, if this digest was set up, I'd probably stay with the regular mailing list for these reasons - a) I like to keep as up to date as possible and be able to recieve the messages as they are sent. b) Reading 200 messages is a great alternative to doing any real work... :) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk (Wondering what this craze of putting your current feelings/actions in brackets in your signature file is all about. ;) ) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:42:42 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Go a bundle... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:40:11 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "James R Curry" at Nov 7, 96 04:31:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 480 Lines: 11 > If you've got 8 serious applications bundled with a machine, 2 games > as well is not going to put anyone off. It'll attract more people. > I'd rather see one really good serious application and one good game (PoP?) rather than 8 applications rushed to meet the launch date. I think if the bundled software is even mildly crappy then that will put lots of people off - people won't see the software as an added extra, more as a part of the machine (as with the QL). -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:43:19 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:35:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@euler.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 773 Lines: 18 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, James R Curry wrote: > > > > (1) **A Level of funding available is decided on** > > > > > > > > > > We could say "everyone who wants a SAMson give us 100 quid for > > > development fees, then give us the 199 quid later" and then we > > > all nip of to Barbados. Or Clacton-on-Sea more likely... That article in YS about the "new" ASIC springs to mind.... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:51:49 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:45:41 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: proposal workpackage Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 408 Lines: 10 > I'll even get the ball rolling and suggest that the bit patterns for the > first five should be A B C D E > er, then perhaps.. F.. erm.. G.. H? eer.. I... mmm Q... Z.. T? somebody help me out here.. I think I have the right idea.. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk (Wondering what this craze of putting your current feelings/actions in brackets in your signature file is all about. ;) ) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 16:58:23 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:58:39 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Internet/cost/PC's Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1033 Lines: 23 > Not with that price tag me thinks, I reckon most people would spend > say an extra 200 pounds and get a PC that they can do all the > office-type work on using programs they are accustomed too, and the > kids can play all the latest games that they are always talking > about. Ahh. But most people with an average family will walk into their nearest 'trustworthy' high street store to buy their computer. i.e Dixons. "Hello, I'd like a machine for The Internet, which i've heard about, a bit of word processing, and my kids to play games." "Certainly, what you need is this new Dixons PC deal. You get a P160, with all you need, for just 2000 pounds" Shops don't try and sell 600 pound PC's and if the 400 pound SAMson, with word processer, net access and the ability to play games is available, and people are quoted this price, then it may do well. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk (Wondering what this craze of putting your current feelings/actions in brackets in your signature file is all about. ;) ) From imc Thu Nov 7 17:01:45 1996 Subject: Re: SOS colour To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:01:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101092052.0091693c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 1, 96 09:20:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 686 Lines: 15 On Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:20:52 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > Yeah... I've got a SAM->BMP converter (handles everything but MODE 3, and > only not MODE 3 because of a bug in the microsoft spec (they don't stick to > it)), an IFF->SAM converter (partial programming version), and some other > bits and bobs. Well I have a PPM->SAM converter (not on the Sam though). I don't claim it's any good, but you will have seen some of the results in FRED. I also have SAM->PPM. (PPM is "portable pixmap" which basically writes the RGB values of each pixel in the picture in sequence. A freeware toolkit called PBMPlus contains all sorts of utilities and converters to and from this format). imc From imc Thu Nov 7 17:11:06 1996 Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:11:06 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101092053.0090cf68@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 1, 96 09:20:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 819 Lines: 21 On Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:20:53 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > 3. SAM GUI - possibly based around a Mac/Windows 95 design style. May or May > Not be multitasking. Aside from the fact that X is obviously a better choice than Mac/Windows95 :-) it had better be multitasking or there's no point. What good is a windowing system with only one window? Also, it had better be pre-emptively multitasked. None of this Win 3.0 "one bad app crashes the whole system" business... It would help if the base operating system were multitasking and process-based (did I mention Unix? :-) ) though I suppose the windowing system could be its own operating system if that weren't the case. > Alternatively, we make it all PD. Alternatively, we make it all PhD. :-) Is it possible to get a PhD by designing a new computer? imc From imc Thu Nov 7 17:13:52 1996 Subject: Re: Hi! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:13:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <49EF2D2B29@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Nov 1, 96 10:59:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 472 Lines: 13 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:59:51 GMT, James R Curry said: > So, what have I missed in the several month[snip]s i've been away? Well you probably missed more in the last couple of weeks than the whole rest of the time. But anyway, I've created logs up to 15 October and put them on the web. I suppose I could continue them a bit now that it is December, if I get time... I think it's something like http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/users/ian.collier/Misc/sam-users/ . imc From imc Thu Nov 7 17:17:08 1996 Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:17:08 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961101115322.00914684@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 1, 96 11:53:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 670 Lines: 15 On Fri, 01 Nov 1996 11:53:22 +0000, Simon Cooke said: [about displaying images] > It'd > have to be pretty clever too... every 16-24 pixels or so, you change *one* > colour out of the 15, with say 3 changes in the borders... I've been working > on timing details for it. I doubt it would be worth the effort. After all, we only have 128 colours in the palette so the image is going to look rough no matter how many palette changes you put in it. Also I know from experience that if you FS-dither the image then suddenly changing one colour in the palette can make a visible line in the image. imc From imc Thu Nov 7 17:19:16 1996 Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:19:16 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611011337.NAA05239@caligula.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Nov 1, 96 01:37:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 170 Lines: 6 On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:37:16 GMT, SL Harding said: > I am fed up of running out of FAT on samdisks! Sam disks don't have a FAT. Presumably you mean the directory. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 17:39:29 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:29:09 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Internet/cost/PC's Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <17281192107@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2136 Lines: 45 Hello, > Shops don't try and sell 600 pound PC's and if the 400 pound SAMson, > with word processer, net access and the ability to play games is > available, and people are quoted this price, then it may do well. > -- > James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk Or on the other hand, if we can't get it advertised properly - it won't. Unless we can convince some of the high-street stores to take the amchine and plug it then there is not chance for it commercially. Or at the very leasst, the local computer dealers. We all boo and hiss at the sound of Microsoft and IBM but for many, they are the computer industry and anything that doesn't carry their badge is inferior to them. I know this is a sorry state of affairs and that we all know better, but life isn't fair is it?! Bob cited the Spectrum market as a target - well as I previously mentioned, this is a nog-go area as most Spectrum owners are Spectrum owners out of sheer laziness, or unwillingness, to upgrade - they aren't waiting for the right machine to come along because they are perfectly happy with the one they have got. SAM owners are the target. And after SAM owners, independeently minded people who want to escape the monopolisation of the home computer industry. And then, and only then, should we dare to take on a multi-million pound organisation in the chain stores. As for the Internet connection - well I think it's going to become essential to have one as any machine that can't plug in is going to be considered inferior (remember, image is EVERYTHING these days). And if we're looking to beceome the entry level machine for the Internet then we'd better hurry up because those 'set-top boxes' that the consumer has been demanding will be on sale come next year and they'll be retailing for a little less than stlg300. Fair enough, they're not computers, but many uninformed people believe the Internet is the be-all and end-all. Let's get this thing built and, whilst keeping an eye on the commercial appeal of it, get it built to the specs that we want. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 17:39:29 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:36:49 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Plea! Plea! Plea! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 942 Lines: 28 > Hi everyone, > > Well, it's that time again: since no-one (other than Dave Gommeren) has > offered to do articles for Based On An Idea, I have to ask: > > Would anyone be willing to do an article for Based On An Idea? I'm up to my > eyeballs in work at the moment, so it'd really help out. Here's my article.. Can't wait for the accelerator to be finished? Then use this wonderful program to create similar screen effects. 10 CLS#:MODE 4 20 CSIZE 8,8 30 PLOT INT(RND*256),INT(RND*176) 40 GOTO 20 Okay, so it's not as fast as the accelerator.. But then if it was it would lose sales. ;) (If anyone doesn't get this, I'm refering to the immense amounts of white 'fuzz' the accelerator was chucking onto the screen at the gloucester show which Simon brought it to.) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk (Wondering what this craze of putting your current feelings/actions in brackets in your signature file is all about. ;) ) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 18:42:14 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 18:36:22 GMT Message-Id: <199611071836.SAA17174@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Internet/cost/PC's From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2695 Lines: 59 On Nov 07, 1996 17:29:09, 'Johnna Teare ' wrote: >Hello, > >> Shops don't try and sell 600 pound PC's and if the 400 pound SAMson, >> with word processer, net access and the ability to play games is >> available, and people are quoted this price, then it may do well. >> -- >> James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk > >Or on the other hand, if we can't get it advertised properly - it >won't. Unless we can convince some of the high-street stores to take >the amchine and plug it then there is not chance for it commercially. > >Or at the very leasst, the local computer dealers. > Direct promotion to the target user will sell it. Most people over the age of 25 are to scared to go into a computer store. >We all boo and hiss at the sound of Microsoft and IBM but for many, >they are the computer industry and anything that doesn't carry their >badge is inferior to them. I know this is a sorry state of affairs >and that we all know better, but life isn't fair is it?! > >Bob cited the Spectrum market as a target - well as I previously >mentioned, this is a nog-go area as most Spectrum owners are Spectrum >owners out of sheer laziness, or unwillingness, to upgrade - they >aren't waiting for the right machine to come along because they are >perfectly happy with the one they have got. > A bit of truth in that, but Spectrums (and CPCs, MSXs and the other Z80 based machines) are getting harder to buy and maintain, so if people want to stick with something they are used to then SAM is their only option. >SAM owners are the target. And after SAM owners, independeently >minded people who want to escape the monopolisation of the home >computer industry. And then, and only then, should we dare to take on >a multi-million pound organisation in the chain stores. > >As for the Internet connection - well I think it's going to become >essential to have one as any machine that can't plug in is going to >be considered inferior (remember, image is EVERYTHING these days). >And if we're looking to beceome the entry level machine for the >Internet then we'd better hurry up because those 'set-top boxes' that >the consumer has been demanding will be on sale come next year and >they'll be retailing for a little less than stlg300. Fair enough, >they're not computers, but many uninformed people believe the >Internet is the be-all and end-all. > >Let's get this thing built and, whilst keeping an eye on the >commercial appeal of it, get it built to the specs that we want. > >Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) >"They call me Mad The Swine" -- Samsboss. (agreeing with most of it) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 18:42:45 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 18:28:30 GMT Message-Id: <199611071828.SAA16665@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 558 Lines: 17 On Nov 07, 1996 17:19:16, 'Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk' wrote: >On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:37:16 GMT, SL Harding said: >> I am fed up of running out of FAT on samdisks! > >Sam disks don't have a FAT. Presumably you mean the directory. > >imc -- Sam discs have a FAT within each directory entry. ORed together they give a map of total disc usage. Erase a file and the space is instantly available. But I agree, in this case I think he ment directory space (use Masterdos). Samsboss. (Can't think of anything to go here so I've left it blank??) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 19:01:27 1996 Message-Id: <199611071901.TAA29726@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Elite - its all in a name Date: 06 Nov 1996 18:54:13 References: <199611061652.QAA10286@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 592 Lines: 18 In a message of 06 Nov 96 Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Oi Samsboss! Sup> Dee name gotta changeda cosa lotsa peepol kepta mispronounciationing Sup> the worda COUPE. Ata leasta thata wasa whata Bobakins tolda mea ata dee Sup> April Show. Theya saidit as in the hut you puts chicky chicks in, you Sup> know -the word that sounds like soup - yes, you got it (aren't some Sup> people bad with words). April show.. Well that rules out who I thought you might have been. :) Q. Do I know you? _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 19:02:16 1996 Message-Id: <199611071901.TAA29732@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: We Must Have A Modem So There... Date: 06 Nov 1996 19:00:58 References: X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 468 Lines: 13 * Cross-Reply from area 'ML-SAM.USERS' (ML-SAM.USERS) In a message of 06 Nov 96 Andrew M Gale wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: AMG> Eh? Why have a SAM-specific modem? Just use a normal one and build a AMG> fast serial port for the SAM. Yeah.. bugger that idea! Use normal ones - then it's up to the user how fast he wants to go. And include the option to use an internal model on future boards. _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 19:14:54 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 19:11:08 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Hi! In-Reply-To: <9611071713.AA16446@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 213 Lines: 11 On Thu, 7 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > I suppose I could continue them a bit now that > it is December, if I get time... It's December? I didn't know these clocks were so inaccurate. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 19:23:04 1996 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 11:48:53 +0100 Message-Id: <96110611485335@morse.ntu.ac.uk> From: CC604050@ntu.ac.uk (ALLAN CLARKSON) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Fred 74 X-Vms-To: SMTP%"sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 131 Lines: 8 Yeah, I can't get RGB Demo to work either. Luckily, however, being less than 25 mins walk from Anderton's house as I am... Al. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 7 19:26:00 1996 Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 18:20:10 GMT Message-Id: <199611071820.SAA16318@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Keyboards.. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 436 Lines: 14 On Nov 07, 1996 16:27:00, '"James R Curry" ' wrote: >All this talk of keyboards.. why not choose a PC one with those >'Windows' keys on. When you press one the machine could display "You >must be joking!" and crash. >-- >James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk -- Bloody good idea that one. Now how can we program all the PCs out there to do exactly the same thing? Samsboss. Still fed up with Win '95.