From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:27:30 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <12492.199611151616@fenugreek.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Hello. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:16:08 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611141726.AA04574@booth2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 14, 96 05:26:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 339 Lines: 10 > Well you could complain to your sysadmin. I could do, but it really didn't seem worth doing so just for the time. They were busy trying to stop the mail system from falling flat on its face at the time. > Anyway, _this_ one had the correct time on it... There was a reboot Wednesday morning (or Tuesday), it probably got fixed then. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:27:33 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:12:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@kola.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The PlugBoard? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1467 Lines: 30 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > > It's just an adapter that presents the SAM expansion port in a form that could > > be used easily with a solderless plugboard module thing where you can set up > > circuits really easily and quickly without worrying about soldering.. :) > > Excellent idea! That's the hardest bit about designing That's my problem... I often come up with pretty good ideas and novel approaches to common "problems"... BUT, I never seem to finish what I start. :( I seem to think "Yeah.. That'll work like that.." then stop halfway because I thought of something else to do... The amount of half finished programs I have on my SAM and PC... (and on my speccy)... I have loads of ideas of what to build for my SAM (but I don't think they would be appropriate for SAMson :( ). They're basically tools to build my own computer with a totally different spec (and timescale) to SAMson... > wires, then connected to a dangling euroconnector. Perhaps > I ought to get on and make my own plugboard... Hey! I told you everyone should have one! :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:27:49 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <12511.199611151619@fenugreek.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:19:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611141718.AA04527@booth2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 14, 96 05:18:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 275 Lines: 7 > > On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 05:49:12 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > > Sorry, but you can't ingnore the fact that as many assemblers allow the > > 'undocumented' codes, many programmers have used them. > Which assemblers, where? SC_Assembler and (I think) Lerm, for a start. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:28:09 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:25:21 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: WHO IS GOING TO DO WHAT? In-Reply-To: <961115100450_1749236506@emout18.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 742 Lines: 20 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > All it needs is a simple email. Using the heading above. Say what part you > want to play in the project. Software. But don't expect too much progress except between terms. What software though? Don't automatically say the windowing system, just because of the half-finished version of Z80B WinDOS I've got; because that will need to be completely rewritten to use whatever new processor properly (any progress on the Z380 manuals?), and probably totally redesigned because so many people have different ideas about what the windows system should be like. But as I've said before, we programmers can't exactly start until them hardware bods have got something for us to work in. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:29:38 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:25:58 GMT Message-Id: <199611151625.QAA03652@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 631 Lines: 18 On Nov 15, 1996 16:45:36, 'Stephen Harding ' wrote: >I have said it before and I will say it again... >Just because we have a faster machine doesn't mean to say that we >can write crap slow code! Next thing you know you will be wanting nice >neat code and a charater format that it is possible to understand! >(drat!). > >We will be NEEDING son of son of son of son of samson before you know it >if we take that path. > >Numb. -- If we followed the "I have the power, so I can afford to waste a bit" line then we would go the same route as PCs and be forever in need of upgrade. Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:41:01 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:33:20 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? In-Reply-To: <12511.199611151619@fenugreek.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 723 Lines: 25 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Mr P R Walker wrote: > SC_Assembler and (I think) Lerm, for a start. Lerm doesn't. Dunno about the other though. Comet allows SLL, but as for the rest, the use of DB xx can hardly be called 'allowing the use of undocumented codes'. You always know exactly what you're doing.... Besides, you could argue like that on a silly scale: COMET! THE SAM ASSEMBLER WHICH ALSO PRODUCES 68000 CODE!!! DB 23,46,34,25,xx,xx,yy,yy,zz,zz ;(whatever that does) It could handle anything, so long as you don't mind doing the actual assembly yourself..... Maybe that isn't quite as silly as it sounds - we may possibly have to do something sililar to write a Z380 assembler program in Z380 assembly! Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:41:02 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:39:14 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam users Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode In-Reply-To: <199611151625.QAA03652@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 622 Lines: 20 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > If we followed the "I have the power, so I can afford to waste a bit" line > then we would go the same route as PCs and be forever in need of upgrade. > Samsboss. Absolutely. In the big scale of things a Z380 still isn't incredibly fast, but is much much better than what we've got already - and well written Z380 code would probably give most PC programs a run for their (much larger amount of) money. That said, an OTT screen display could slow things right back down again unless it has lots of expensive extra, on-board processors or whatever. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:43:01 1996 Message-Id: <199611151637.RAA07048@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: WHO IS GOING TO DO WHAT? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 17:37:04 MET In-Reply-To: <961115100450_1749236506@emout18.mail.aol.com>; from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 15, 96 10:04 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 776 Lines: 15 I'll sign up for software developement. I can also work on software emulation of new hardware. Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 16:45:18 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611151718.RAA15100@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS C or Assembler To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:18:30 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1183 Lines: 36 > ;>> From: sh5655@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk (SL Harding) > ;> > Now sh5655@IRIX.bris.ac.uk > > ;>> I don't think writing the opperating system in C is a good idea! > True,it may be > ;>> easier and faster to write but it is also more likely to be > seriously bugged > > I don't think it's more likely to be bugged if written in C, than > assembler, C is easier to check ... > The chances are that there will be minor bugs in the development version of C we use -> Bugs due to adventurous programming methods within C and bugs due to the (in effect) prototype C we use. > ;>> and will run slower than a pure assembler one. > > This however is the important point! BOB> Provided that the C compiler outputs Z(3)80 source code to go into an BOB> assembler/linker then you can always hand optimize the resulting code BOB> before assembly. I don't want this job, C makes ugly code! Writing a SAM vesion of C will be hard enough, but writing a decent and efficient optimising version of C will be another matter. We have to modify the (cool!) butterfly text printing routeen etc. to make the most of the Z380s timings. C9 Numb. Will this message reach anyone I wonder.... From imc Fri Nov 15 16:58:47 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:58:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611151645.QAA14496@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Nov 15, 96 04:45:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1303 Lines: 25 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:45:36 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > > Hold on, I don't see why this should be made compulsory in the operating > > system just to make it a microsecond quicker (since we are presumably > > talking about the PRINT command in BASIC!). Make the character format > > easy to understand and let the improved processor do the speeding up. > I have said it before and I will say it again... > Just because we have a faster machine doesn't mean to say that we > can write crap slow code! Look, I'm not suggesting that you should slow something down - I'm suggesting that you should leave it the same and not go OTT with a silly printing routine that belongs in specialist programs like Simon's Termite. I mean, if you're going to be like that why don't you use DMZ's font compiler instead, seeing as it's faster? More importantly, the butterfly printing routine is only suitable for mode 3 and the masking bit is only used in 80-column mode. We want a routine that can print in any mode (possibly including the new graphics modes), any colour, any size (well, width either 6 or 8 and height either 8 or 16) and any OVER. And it's supposed to work in BASIC and presumably be compatible with the current Sam BASIC, and that includes loading a new character set. imc From imc Fri Nov 15 17:02:23 1996 Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:02:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 15, 96 02:11:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 615 Lines: 12 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:11:49 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > I though *all* assemblers accept undocumented codes... (in a round about way) > What's wrong with looking up the codes and inputting them as 'DB xx, yy' where > xx and yy is the opcode. It may accept undocumented op codes, but it doesn't accept undocumented _instructions_. The point was, someone claimed that programmers will be using these because they can easily assemble them and hence the Z380 will break a lot of programs. I think a programmer who has to look the instructions up and type DB will not exactly be encouraged to use them. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:03:52 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:59:46 +0000 Subject: Re: SAM - PC stuff . . . Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1807F46794@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 408 Lines: 9 > PC Suite, from my hero that nice Mr Young, already converts SAM BASIC to > text, and then to the PC if needed. Yeh, but it's not free, is it? davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:24:04 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961115165706.008e0e48@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:57:06 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 346 Lines: 11 At 04:39 PM 11/15/96 +0000, you wrote: >That said, an OTT screen display could slow things right back down again >unless it has lots of expensive extra, on-board processors or whatever. Well, what we've been looking at for the graphics and sound board has a built in RISC processor at 33MHz... an ARM 7 no less. Should do the business. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:24:04 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961115165707.008e2ffc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:57:07 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS C or Assembler Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 343 Lines: 11 At 05:18 PM 11/15/96 +0000, you wrote: >We have to modify the (cool!) butterfly text printing >routeen etc. to make the most of the Z380s timings. >C9 Numb. I think pretty much the only way you could do that is by fiddling with the way it pipelines stuff... and the only problem is, Zilog ain't releasing the Pipeline specs... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:24:14 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:16:39 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS - Screen Colours. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <184FE9711F@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 680 Lines: 16 > On Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:02:09 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: > > Did I once see a routine that interlaced two screens? > > No, you didn't. > > You might have seen one that attempts to do it, but since it's impossible on > an ordinary Sam it didn't work too well. :-) Eh? Well I saw one too. Came on Crash I believe, along with some other colors-muff. Possibly by Simon someone (wasn't you was it cookie?) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:24:23 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:09:32 +0000 Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <183136571C@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 408 Lines: 9 When I sent my 256K disc-based SAM for repair, it came back minus the disc drive ... so I suppose, rightfully, your discdrive belongs to me ;) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:24:23 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:10:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam users Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode In-Reply-To: <199611151645.QAA14496@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 837 Lines: 27 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: ;> ;>I have said it before and I will say it again... ;> Just because we have a faster machine doesn't mean to say that we ;>can write crap slow code! Next thing you know you will be wanting nice ;>neat code and a charater format that it is possible to understand! ;>(drat!). Yep otherwise you end up like Windows etc. where you have to get an even faster machine to run the operating system .... ;> ;>We will be NEEDING son of son of son of son of samson before you know it ;>if we take that path. ;> Erm, yep, oops I've just written the same as you haven't I. But I did get a dig into Microsoft as well so it was worth it ! Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From imc Fri Nov 15 17:35:45 1996 Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:35:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 15, 96 02:00:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 696 Lines: 20 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:00:01 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > > What does your emulator return for an IN a,(31) instruction? > Good question... > Then again, I don't really class SNA-RUNner as an emulator since it just uses > the Speccy ROM as its own ROM and you can't snapshot the SNA yet... Oops, I think I confused you with the one who's writing (another) speccy emulator... > So, I suppose the IN a,(31) would give the normal answer the SAM gives. What is > that port used for in Speccy-land? On the Speccy it is the kempston joystick port. I don't know what it does on the Sam but if it produces random numbers then the program probably thinks you are wiggling the joystick. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:41:42 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961115173220.008e7bc4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:32:20 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS - Screen Colours. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 682 Lines: 19 At 05:16 PM 11/15/96 +0000, you wrote: >> You might have seen one that attempts to do it, but since it's impossible on >> an ordinary Sam it didn't work too well. :-) > >Eh? >Well I saw one too. Came on Crash I believe, along with some other >colors-muff. Possibly by Simon someone (wasn't you was it cookie?) Nah, Simon Goodwin :) And it was on Sinclair User. The principal behind the way it all worked is fine (well for the colours), although it's more correctly called temporal aliasing. The "interlaced" screen tried to do the business, but failed because the SAM doesn't generate interlaced graphics. Every 1/50th of a second, the screen is completely rewritten. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:42:07 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:38:24 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam interlacing In-Reply-To: <184FE9711F@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1347 Lines: 30 > > You might have seen one that attempts to do it, but since it's impossible on > > an ordinary Sam it didn't work too well. :-) > > Eh? > Well I saw one too. Came on Crash I believe, along with some other > colors-muff. Possibly by Simon someone (wasn't you was it cookie?) You have seen programs which *try* to do interlacing, by swapping between two screens every frame. The idea is that one screen appears half a pixel below the other, giving the effect of higher resolution. Normal TV pictures are interlaced screens; 2 half-pictures every 1/25 of a second. Matt Round (I think) once said it wasn't possible to do this well, becuse you can't tell whether it is the upper or the lower screen which currently is being displayed. In fact, interlacing to produce extra resolution is never possible on the Sam's circuitry because every screen is exactly the same. No half-pixel differences or anything. One picture is displayed every 1/50 of a second. Which is why Banzai's 'Interlazer demo' (?) (on nvg) fails to produce anything convincing whatsoever. Screen swapping to produce extra colours, on the other hand, nearly works - see Momentum for details. The intro screen really is appallingly flickery. Various people have said they've got the technique working and looking nice - but I haven't seen any good examples yet. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:42:11 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:32:51 +0000 Subject: Re: WHO IS GOING TO DO WHAT? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1894B32565@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 542 Lines: 10 Personally, I think it'd be better to have a list of WHAT before I suggest which I'd do ... That way I don't risk attempting something which I end up falling over myself with and letting everyone down... So - a list of 'everything' would be nice. I recommend it be typed in capitals. +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:42:24 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:29:51 +0000 Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1888883637@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 525 Lines: 13 > yeah but the point about undocumented instructions is that they'renot > documented, so you can't look them up. (Not strictly true I know, but near > enough ...) > > Lee. Check out http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/z80.txt for a (full?) set of Z80 opcodes. davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:42:29 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:43:09 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <18C14513D5@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 943 Lines: 19 Eeehm, what's wrong with using the butterfly routine? I don't see anything wrong with having a larger library of ROM routines (or however the SAM BASIC compatability is to be implemented...) if the resultant routines run faster... That way, it makes (maybe?) sense to have four butterfly routines (6x8, 8x8, 6x16, 8x16) and the font can be munged when you start anything (er, eg, turn it on). Doesn't the SAM rom blow up the font from a compressed rom image anyway? We'd effectively be doing that (and then some) but I'm sure there'd be a few bytes of space lying around happy to do this for us. If you have fast code, there seems little reason in NOT using it. I reckon. davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:43:33 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:40:21 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode In-Reply-To: <9611151658.AA06820@booth5.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 350 Lines: 12 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > Look, I'm not suggesting that you should slow something down - I'm > suggesting that you should leave it the same and not go OTT with a > silly printing routine that belongs in specialist programs like Simon's > Termite. Why is termite specialised in needing a fast screen-update? Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:43:33 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:45:28 +0000 Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <18CB274D2B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 649 Lines: 11 > On the Speccy it is the kempston joystick port. I don't know what it does > on the Sam but if it produces random numbers then the program probably > thinks you are wiggling the joystick. I think on the SAM it is held at some rather nasty value which decodes as 'UP and LEFT and RIGHT and FIRE' if the software reads it as a joystick input... Preferred sinclair joysticks anyway... davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From imc Fri Nov 15 17:45:14 1996 Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:45:14 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611151109.LAA26863@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 15, 96 11:09:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 490 Lines: 12 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:09:26 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: > >Not in the usual sense of the word FAT. > Well if it does the same thing then it is a FAT. Although I admit that the > real FAT is the SAM (Sector Allocation Map) that is made from the directory > entries. No. The word FAT is generally reserved for the File Allocation Table on a PC-format disk. The things that Sam disks have are maps, not tables, and there is one for each file instead of one for all files. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:47:43 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:49:16 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <18DB583ABD@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 779 Lines: 16 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > Look, I'm not suggesting that you should slow something down - I'm > suggesting that you should leave it the same and not go OTT with a > silly printing routine that belongs in specialist programs like Simon's > Termite. Hey! Don't call it silly! I admire it lots. Fast print routines - specialist my bunkin. You'll be calling fast hard drives specialist too next. And fast computers. SAMSON - the computer for 'fast computer' specialists. WHAAT? daveee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 17:54:26 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL. Harding) Message-Id: <199611151745.RAA21751@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:45:51 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611151718.RAA15100@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Nov 15, 96 05:18:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2351 Lines: 48 >More importantly, the butterfly printing routine is only suitable for mode >3 and the masking bit is only used in 80-column mode. We want a routine >that can print in any mode (possibly including the new graphics modes), >any colour, any size (well, width either 6 or 8 and height either 8 or >16) and any OVER. And it's supposed to work in BASIC and presumably be >compatible with the current Sam BASIC, and that includes loading a new >character set. > >imc I don't know if anyone recieved it ,but way around the font/window size and resolution problems in the GUI may be solved by (to quote myself)... NU>i,The Z380 uses the graphics processor as a slave system by sending NU>Commands such as 'plot pixel at X,Y'. NU> NU>This would be powerfull as the slave processor could use the same command NU>to plot the pixel at any resolution or colour depth, the way it actually NU>goes about plotting the pixel depends on the current screen mode. This NU>would solve the I-can't-run-any-applications-as-I-only-have-an-old-T.V NU>problem. It could also be used to give nice scalling effects within a NU>mode, and to ensure all work is kept within the relevent GUI window NU>independently of the scale the window was designed to have. or in other words, in the RISKs screen driver memory it would have 1 routeen to plot a pixel in each mode and IT remembers which mode it is in and uses the relevent one. The Z380 need not know which mode the screen is in. As the different modes will have different resolutions, these routeens have scale factors included into them. Why not give them all variable scale modes so that whenever the Z380 wants to write some text in a window, it assumes the window fills the entire screen and sends the commands along with a window identifier. The RISK chip could get the info about the relevent window, e.g. its size and position etc. chose the correct screen mode plotting routeen, and send the data to the screen using the relevent scale factors and offsets. Is the RISK chip up to this? Of course, the Z380 will have to know all of the info about the window so that the mouse can interect with them (unless we put the mouse driver on the graphics card...). -this is only relevent to the GUI. programs run from level 2 (SamBasic based CLI) would have full access to the screens info, the RISK chip etc. Numb. From imc Fri Nov 15 18:18:44 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:18:44 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 15, 96 05:40:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1007 Lines: 23 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:40:21 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > Why is termite specialised in needing a fast screen-update? Because it is a text-based program. I can't actually think of that many of them. Text editors and "less" (and other file reading programs for disk magazines) is about it. Most programs don't actually do that much printing. Is it worth the amount of hassle and memory wastage to create one or more specialised fonts for each mode (except 1 and 2, I guess) and printing routines just for these apps, when they can fairly easily implement it themselves? Remember again that the ROM has to do inverse and over and control code interpretation and token expansion, and any program which needs fast printing will do better to implement its own printing routine just to avoid the performance penalty of coping with items on this list that it doesn't need. Also, if the program doesn't need colours and can use 64 columns then it will be using DMZ's font compiler instead anyway. imc From imc Fri Nov 15 18:27:55 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:27:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <18C14513D5@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 15, 96 05:43:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 879 Lines: 25 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:43:09 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > Eeehm, what's wrong with using the butterfly routine? I seem to have made myself unpopular here. :-) > That way, it makes (maybe?) sense to have four butterfly routines > (6x8, 8x8, 6x16, 8x16) What about mode 4? > and the font can be munged when you start > anything (er, eg, turn it on). How will you know whether or not the character set has been changed, e.g. by poking or loading code into the character set area? > Doesn't the SAM rom blow up the font > from a compressed rom image anyway? We'd effectively be doing that > (and then some) but I'm sure there'd be a few bytes of space lying > around happy to do this for us. A single 6x8 "butterfly" character set with 192 characters occupies 6K. How much memory are you willing to spend on this? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 18:30:01 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:20:32 GMT Message-Id: <199611151820.SAA07076@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM - PC stuff . . . From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 679 Lines: 20 On Nov 15, 1996 16:59:46, '"Dave Hooper" <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK>' wrote: >Yeh, but it's not free, is it? >davee -- Nothing in life is free my boy, nothing. And I'm starting to get the idea that this is part of the problem with our SAM world - its full of lazy, self-opinionated, argumentative people who want everything yesterday, and for free. Grow up. If something is worth having its worth paying for. The SAM is not some social security handout for spongers. If you want something you can either write it orbuild it yourself or do what most of us do ---- pay for it. Samsboss. (And no its not the wrong time of the month - I just can't stand cheapskates) From imc Fri Nov 15 18:31:27 1996 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:31:27 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611151745.RAA21751@irix.bris.ac.uk> from "SL. Harding" at Nov 15, 96 05:45:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 718 Lines: 17 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:45:51 +0000 (GMT), SL. Harding said: > I don't know if anyone recieved it ,but way around the font/window size and > resolution problems in the GUI may be solved by (to quote myself)... > NU>i,The Z380 uses the graphics processor as a slave system by sending > NU>Commands such as 'plot pixel at X,Y'. Yes, but this doesn't seem to have much to do with the current issue... :-) Surely you are not suggesting that characters are printed by plotting each individual pixel? :-) If the graphics card is going to be set up to accept commands (as opposed to making the main processor write to the screen memory by itself) then what you describe is almost certainly what will happen anyway. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 18:39:40 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:36:02 GMT Message-Id: <199611151836.SAA08675@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 519 Lines: 17 On Nov 15, 1996 17:45:15, 'Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk' wrote: >No. The word FAT is generally reserved for the File Allocation Table on a >PC-format disk. The things that Sam disks have are maps, not tables, and >there is one for each file instead of one for all files. > >imc -- Look, just because Microsoft /think/ they invented computing, you don't have to go along with it. FATs been around longer than MS-DOS. And again, if it does the same task, then it is valid to call it a FAT. Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 19:16:45 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:11:37 GMT Subject: Re: SAM - PC stuff . . . Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1443 Lines: 35 > >Yeh, but it's not free, is it? > >davee > -- > Nothing in life is free my boy, nothing. And I'm starting to get the idea > that this is part of the problem with our SAM world - its full of lazy, > self-opinionated, argumentative people who want everything yesterday, and > for free. > > Grow up. If something is worth having its worth paying for. The SAM is not > some social security handout for spongers. If you want something you can > either write it orbuild it yourself or do what most of us do ---- pay for > it. > > Samsboss. I agree with you that there a lot of cheapskates in the Sam world. I've even heard of people in the past pirating Sam software, which is quite frankly sickening. I mean, the software is so cheap and its obvious that so much work goes into it by so few people - its almost like stealing from your own friends (and in some cases it is). I don't agree, however, that the Sam world is "full of lazy, self-opinionated, argumentative people". Obviously there is the odd one who thinks he knows it all (and maybe does, in some areas) and doesn't listen to anyone else's point of view. On the whole though, I think the Sam community is a great thing to be involved in - a normally friendly, helpful cheerful bunch on the whole :) By the way Samsboss, I think I know who you are *grins* I want to check something in a past Fred first though, before I say it, just in case... Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 20:24:02 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 20:22:53 +0000 Subject: Re: SAM - PC stuff . . . Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1B6AA86787@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1044 Lines: 24 > >Yeh, but it's not free, is it? > >davee > -- > Nothing in life is free my boy, nothing. And I'm starting to get the idea > that this is part of the problem with our SAM world - its full of lazy, > self-opinionated, argumentative people who want everything yesterday, and > for free. > > Grow up. If something is worth having its worth paying for. The SAM is not > some social security handout for spongers. If you want something you can > either write it orbuild it yourself or do what most of us do ---- pay for > it. Yeh yeh yeh whatever. I was only trying to make the point that the one I had written *WAS* free. Which is probably why i mentioned it in the first place. As I was saying, should I put it up on nvg? Or should I start trying to sell it to people ;) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 20:36:06 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 20:31:46 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1B90BC6298@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1947 Lines: 55 To quote Ian Collier : > On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:43:09 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > Eeehm, what's wrong with using the butterfly routine? > > I seem to have made myself unpopular here. :-) > > > That way, it makes (maybe?) sense to have four butterfly routines > > (6x8, 8x8, 6x16, 8x16) > > What about mode 4? *** Eh? *** > > > and the font can be munged when you start > > anything (er, eg, turn it on). > > How will you know whether or not the character set has been changed, > e.g. by poking or loading code into the character set area? Oh. Good point. There *must* be a way. An easy one, too. Got it! (it's still crapo though) Ok, only SAM basic and some other stuff (hey! probably quite a lot of other stuff, but what do I know) use the ROM print routine. So, there'd be that one for compatibilty AND the new one. It's sounding shabbier by the minute. There's probably a much better way around it, but that'd require lateral thinking and, I dunno, a brain or something. > > > Doesn't the SAM rom blow up the font > > from a compressed rom image anyway? We'd effectively be doing that > > (and then some) but I'm sure there'd be a few bytes of space lying > > around happy to do this for us. > > A single 6x8 "butterfly" character set with 192 characters occupies 6K. How > much memory are you willing to spend on this? Hokay, er, isn't the 6x8 character set **EXACTLY** the same as the 8x8 one? Like, it IS the same one? I mean, you only need the one munged font, don't ya? So - basically - 6k is all you need spare. I'm probably wrong, of course. daveee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 21:36:20 1996 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:32:17 GMT Message-Id: <199611152132.VAA16004@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM - PC stuff . . . From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 422 Lines: 14 On Nov 15, 1996 20:22:53, '"Dave Hooper" <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK>' wrote: >As I was saying, should I put it up on nvg? >Or should I start trying to sell it to people ;) > >davee -- Sell it, even is only for a couple of quid. That way you make a little to help pay for your hobby and people get the softyware they want. Samsboss. (Sorry about the last one, must be the wrong time of the month after all.) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 15 23:39:23 1996 Message-Id: <9611152325.AA02522@mars.cableol.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 23:30:49 +0000 Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1482 Lines: 35 > onOn Thu, 14 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 14/11/96 15:16:39, you write: > > > > >But but but.... SAMco had TWO oppurtunities to spot their mistake! > > > 1) The supplier didn't care to check the order with the goods... > > > 2) The didn't check the warrantee card against the order.. > > > > > >Lucky for me, they didn't.. :) > > > > I thought that SAMCO never sold tape based machines (in the UK anyway). The > > only adverts they did were for the SAM 512K, which was disc based. > > They did. I got one.. and it says SAM Computers on the start up screen.. I > wrote to them asking them to confirm the price of a tape based 256K version. > They definately sold them, I even have the invoice somewhere (and that said > tape based 256K aswell). > > If I remember rightly, I think I only saw 512K adverts aswell.. Then again, I > wrote to them instead of reading the advert (I don't believe in adverts, > anyway!) Shame they didn't send me the 512K version aswell... I could've saved > 35ukp a few months later.. :) > Were the versions that were sold in John Menzies tape based with the disk drives sold on their own? I seem to recall that this is how I bought mine (for a total of stlg130 + whatever it cost for the 256k upgrade). Neil Maynard +-------------------------------+ |Neil Maynard | |E-Mail: mne2@cableol.co.uk | +-------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 08:46:17 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 08:40:27 GMT Message-Id: <199611160840.IAA28529@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposal: Workpackage From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 380 Lines: 15 On Nov 14, 1996 14:26:34, 'Lee Willis ' wrote: >;>> Hmmmm.... how about a Bayer dither? Or perhaps we can come up with another >;>> algorithm for it? > >Howzabout the Bayer tapestry ? > >Lee. -- Wow, wide screen, high res, colour and only 920 years old. :-) Samsboss. (And no, I was not around when it was made, it just feels like that.) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 09:00:59 1996 From: Lord Blackadder To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-7.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: my C compiler Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 06:18:42 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <848127214.58984.0@orinocco.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 589 Lines: 29 > From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> > To: no To-header on input > Cc: sam users > Subject: my C compiler > Date: 09 November 1996 00:00 > > Very brief notes on my C compiler for your info. > > HighTech C by Avocet. > [lots of nice C info removed] > Not a small C but a full implimentation. > Gimme, gimme.... > Anything else you want to know. > How much? > Nev. -- Lord Blackadder, Entropy Technology. Blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk http://www.orinocco.demon.co.uk "Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Expert Says" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 15:25:47 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:43:32 GMT+0 Subject: Erm...virus correction thing...sorry! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1047 Lines: 23 Hello again (he says, humbly!) Seems I was wrong about that virus thing then - I was rading a digest of another mailing list I'm on and below the message I sent previously was this... "> If anyone gets an email entitled Irinia, DO NOT open it!!! > It is a new virus that is sent through your mail. Just to play it > safe, i thought of it to warn you all! Take care, and be safe! No, this is not true. It is another hoax like the "Good Times" virus was. With current technology, it isn't possible to send a virus that will do anything just by opening the mail because everything is sent as ascii. However, never *run* a program that anyone sends you, if you don't know what it is, especially if you're using something like MSMail that automatically decodes encoded files back into executable attachments. This is why the guidlines suggest asking before you post something like this so people don't get needlessly worried." So I guess I look a little stupid, right? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 15:25:51 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:40:33 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Viruses... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 395 Lines: 12 Hello... If anyone gets an email entitled Irinia, DO NOT open it!!! I've just been informed it's a new virus that gets you through the mail so just bin it and hope it does no damage. I hope that when the SAMSon gets up and running nobody will be childish enough to write viruses for it. Some PC owners are so stupid... Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 15:26:00 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:58:29 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Playing name games? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 903 Lines: 20 > > I thought that SAMCO never sold tape based machines (in the UK anyway). The > > only adverts they did were for the SAM 512K, which was disc based. > > They did. I got one.. and it says SAM Computers on the start up screen.. I > wrote to them asking them to confirm the price of a tape based 256K version. > They definately sold them, I even have the invoice somewhere (and that said > tape based 256K aswell). What about the SAM Gamestar? (Strange name really, implying that the SAM was some sort of gaming wonder when reazlly it was desperately short of software!) I seem to remember in a Newsdisk somewhere, Alan Miles saying that Bob had access to dozens of Spectrum games (Newsdisk 4, I think) - are these the ones we're now seeing 'converted' to the SAM (Elite, Sophistry etc) or are there more delights to come? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 17:29:01 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 17:26:30 GMT Message-Id: <199611161726.RAA13076@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Erm...virus correction thing...sorry! From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 174 Lines: 10 On Nov 16, 1996 12:43:32, 'Johnna Teare ' wrote: >So I guess I look a little stupid, right? > >Johnna -- Better safe than sorry! Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 18:14:20 1996 From: Lord Blackadder To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-7.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 - Owner of the Kaleidoscope! Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 15:55:48 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <848162484.622670.0@orinocco.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 589 Lines: 23 > From: Simon Cooke > > I don't think there's much more left for me to buy.... > > 512K SAM (x2, both with 1 disk drive), SDI interface, 2xCOMMS Interfaces, > SAMBUS, 1Mb, Kaleidoscope (not mine), Mouse + Interface... and I'm sure > there's some other stuff there as well... ah yes, Custom v3.0 ROM, SC_Disk > Protector, lots of custom mods... > > Simon Oi - that Kaleidoscope is mine. No use anyway?! -- Lord Blackadder, Entropy Technology. Blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk http://www.orinocco.demon.co.uk "Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Expert Says" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 18:53:09 1996 Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 18:11:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199611151836.SAA08675@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 15, 96 06:36:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Nov16.183531+0000_gmt.48037-2852+105@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 643 Lines: 18 > On Nov 15, 1996 17:45:15, 'Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk' wrote: > >No. The word FAT is generally reserved for the File Allocation Table on a > > >PC-format disk. The things that Sam disks have are maps, not tables, and > >there is one for each file instead of one for all files. > > > >imc > -- > > Look, just because Microsoft /think/ they invented computing, you don't > have to go along with it. FATs been around longer than MS-DOS. Actually, they haven't. The FAT was invented by Microsoft for their DOS. Before then, it was called something completely different (File Extents, and File Allocation Bitmaps usually) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 18:53:10 1996 Subject: Re: Erm...virus correction thing...sorry! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 18:12:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Johnna Teare" at Nov 16, 96 12:43:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Nov16.183531+0000_gmt.48038-2850+102@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 96 Lines: 7 > So I guess I look a little stupid, right? I'm not going to say a single word.... ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 18:53:20 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 18:09:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9611151827.AA07113@booth5.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 15, 96 06:27:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Nov16.183515+0000_gmt.48036-2853+86@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 308 Lines: 11 > A single 6x8 "butterfly" character set with 192 characters occupies 6K. How > much memory are you willing to spend on this? In Termite, I actually use 8K :) You can then show VT100, or PC extended character codes (the ones which correspond to 0-31) :) But I agree with you wholeheartedly, Ian. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 19:10:27 1996 From: Lord Blackadder To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-7.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: Playing name games? Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:50:19 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <848162937.626040.0@orinocco.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 709 Lines: 25 > From: Johnna Teare > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Subject: Re: Playing name games? > Date: 16 November 1996 12:58 > [SAM tape stuff removed] > I seem to remember in a Newsdisk somewhere, Alan Miles saying that > Bob had access to dozens of Spectrum games (Newsdisk 4, I think) - > are these the ones we're now seeing 'converted' to the SAM (Elite, > Sophistry etc) or are there more delights to come? > More Spectrum converts - I can't wait..... > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) > "They call me Mad The Swine" -- Lord Blackadder, Entropy Technology. Blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk http://www.orinocco.demon.co.uk "Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Expert Says" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 19:10:28 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:08:02 -0500 From: Thomas Harte <106350.2555@compuserve.com> Subject: I'M LEAVING! To: "(unknown)" Message-Id: <199611161409_MC1-C08-5EB3@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 154 Lines: 4 Hey everyone, I'm changing internet accounts, so could someone unsubscribe me from this mailing list? I forgot how. Bye for now! -Thomas From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 20:47:00 1996 From: Lord Blackadder To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-7.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: Unsub. and a quote Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:38:05 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <848162487.622699.0@orinocco.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2286 Lines: 64 > From: Frode Tenneboe > > Hi fellow SAM'ers. > > I'm sorry to inform you that David Gommeren (LI, of Tetris-fame) > just wrote me saying that he has unsubscribed from the list due > to the heavy traffic recently. > A few peeps out there are doing this? I must admit - it is quite daunting to receive 350+ mail messages on the weekend when I get logged on (also my girlfriend is pissed off with the amount of time I spend reading them). Might this not be a good time to set up a specific newsgroup for the SAMSON project? I know that most of the group is participating in this (I have been reading with interest), but that doesn't mean that the mailing list would suffer - there is still a lot of other things to talk about. A newsgroup is nice because you don't have to download everything is said (and you can ignore the silly "What colour should we make this new 'puter?" messages!) > Specifickly he told me to say: > > "A decent successor of the Sam needs: > > An ARM 7100/7500 because > It's fast > It's a one chip computer (add memory and it will work) > It's easy to program > It's cheap Nice chip (I would prefer the StrongARM chip) > Throw away the old hardware, nobody needs it > Good point - but I still have my old hardware and have become quite attached to it. I like BoBs idea of making the prototype a series of add-ons for the original SAM so we don't ignore the current owners. > People complaining about the need for a Z80/Z380 to make it a real Son of > Sam, should now this: to be a real Son of Sam it should feel and work (from > the outside) like a Sam, who cares about what's inside?" > What's the point? May as well use SimCoupe and run Linux. > -Frode I think we need some focus. As I mentioned earlier I have been reading with interest, not having much time to contribute (moving house at present). I feel that as long as we don't ignore current users of the SAM and produce something that is fun to explore and play with, it can continue as a 'puter that teaches! The SAM was a very useful aid for my learning of Assembly language. -- Lord Blackadder, Entropy Technology. Blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk http://www.orinocco.demon.co.uk "Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Expert Says" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 22:07:38 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:51:20 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961116165120_1815685525@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1253 Lines: 28 In a message dated 15/11/96 08:46:13, you write: >I'll be the first to buy Kaboom if it does the SAM justice, but I'm >not willing to spend hard earned money on something I've bought for >my Spectrum years ago that I can merely snapshot over to the SAM. >I've got tons of Speccy games, I don't need SAM reworkings of them! > >The likes of Legends is an example of the SAM being innovative. FLM >is the same. Lemmings also. And, I'd hazard, Wop Gamma. But please, >no more port over games that I already own! > >The likes of the rumoured Mokey Island clone would do a bundle on >SAM. It's these games we should be pushing, not Game and Watch things >with good soundtracks and graphics! I think the oportune words here are 'already own'. But, for the majority of SAM owners that don't have access to the older games, and/or do not have the skill to copy them to SAM themselves, there is only one answer - make these highly playable games available for them to play on their SAM. Yes MM was good, played I have no doub't by more people than ANY other SAM game (I've seen kids as young as 4 playing it and people in their 70s. It is good because it has simple, but adictive gamesplay. We could do with many more like Manic Minor. > >Johnna Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 22:07:38 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:51:24 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961116165124_1983457429@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Internet Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 289 Lines: 11 In a message dated 15/11/96 14:15:19, you write: >Johnna... in that case, in order to email you for help on how to use the >program they'd have to know how to use it! IYSWIM. > > Very good point. I think any software should be SOOOO easy, you won't even need on-scree help files. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 22:07:38 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:51:28 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961116165126_671217302@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1704 Lines: 39 In a message dated 15/11/96 14:22:31, you write: >Well... there are a lot of really playable old games. But if we get a >direct port-over, that's exactly what people will see them as: old games. >A hacked spectrum snapshot of Elite is exactly the point here. A) it was not a snapshot. B) if the code alread exists - why not use it. C) it would have been difficult to consider changing the game without 1) needing to print new versions of the manuals and 2) slowing the game down > >But, if we get a rewritten, updated, improved version; people are less >likely to notice. Look at Batz 'n Ballz, or Manic Miner. These were new >games, written for the Sam totally from scratch, with improved graphics, >soundtrack, new features and and even more playability than the best of >the Spectrum versions. That's the sort of Sam software I'd like to buy. Ok, that is the type of software YOU want to buy. But I think that is being short-sighted. As an Elite player right from the dawn of the BBC version, I've seen them all. The BBC was best, can't be beaten, because that was the original. The C64 version was crap, the CPC not much better - because they both tried to use filled shapes for the ships and they both tried to add new twists which didn't work. The PC version (first issue) allowed filled shapes if you wanted, but that was to slow on most machines at the time - so wire-frame was used by most. The Spectrum version stuck very close to the original BBC version and was, considering the processor power, the smothest of the conversions. That was why it was used as the basis for the SAM version. So far I have not heard of any complaints from people who have bought it. > > >Andrew > > Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 22:07:47 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:51:30 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961116165127_738326166@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Z30 Compatability? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 266 Lines: 11 In a message dated 15/11/96 14:23:03, you write: >yeah but the point about undocumented instructions is that they'renot >documented, so you can't look them up. (Not strictly true I know, but near >enough ...) > >Lee. They were just un-documented by Zilog. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 16 22:23:53 1996 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 17:17:50 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961116171749_1682308535@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 803 Lines: 19 In a message dated 15/11/96 17:46:53, you write: >No. The word FAT is generally reserved for the File Allocation Table on a >PC-format disk. The things that Sam disks have are maps, not tables, and >there is one for each file instead of one for all files. > >imc Sorry Ian, have to disagree. Way back in my mainframe days the mega big (60Mega-words each of 24 bits - and that was big in 1977) hard discs had FATs, not the same as SAM, not the same as PC, but thery were FATs. SAM's (and the PLUS D's & DISCiPLE's) Sector Allocation Map, which is formed from all the live files on a disc is used to allocate space on a disc to new files. The fact that the file's S.A.M. (stored in the directory) is only a map of that file does not make it any less a FAT that the type of FAT used by MS-DOS. Bob. From persona@clara.net Sun Nov 17 00:37:29 1996 Message-Id: <199611170037.AAA23034@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk Subject: Re: Re: Re : Killer apps - Internet Reply-To: David Ledbury Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 00:33:46 GMT Status: RO Content-Length: 770 Lines: 20 On 1996/11/16 22:21:48 you wrote: > >On Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:29:09 GMT+0, Johnna Teare said: >> As for the Internet connection - well I think it's going to become >> essential to have one as any machine that can't plug in is going to >> be considered inferior (remember, image is EVERYTHING these days). > >Just a thought: if you are going to sell this machine on its internet >connectivity, who is going to sell the internet connections? Who is >going to man the help line? Note that most internet service providers >give or sell internet software to their users. You can be damn sure they >won't have any Sam software! > >imc > Surely there's a "tame" ISP who wouldn't say no to a fair few extra customers? Why not ask ClaraNet or DirCon (and others)? David L From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 02:13:42 1996 Message-Id: <199611170201.CAA26289@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Like a virgin? Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 01:58:36 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 308 Lines: 10 Anyone fancy a summary of SAMSON ideas for a virgin to the newsgroup? By the way, can anyone recommend some good SAM www sites, that I might not know about? Who's planning to go the the Feb Wetherby show? Particularly from outside the UK? And can we make sure it's better promoted this time? David L. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 02:36:21 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611170215.CAA28754@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:15:07 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611151831.AA07129@booth5.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 15, 96 06:31:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3969 Lines: 91 > > On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:45:51 +0000 (GMT), SL. Harding said: > > I don't know if anyone recieved it, but a way around the font/window size and > > resolution problems in the GUI could be (to quote myself)... > > > NU>i,The Z380 uses the graphics processor as a slave system by sending > > NU>Commands such as 'plot pixel at X,Y'. > > Yes, but this doesn't seem to have much to do with the current issue... :-) > > Surely you are not suggesting that characters are printed by plotting each > individual pixel? :-) > Na, That is what is being assumed at the moment, if all (mode 5+) screen otput is being done by the RISK eventualy. Why don't we write the fast text dumpers in the RISKs code? That way all we need is to send a 'print "B"' command to the graphics board. -so there is no point in working on the Z(3)80 based butterfly system, using 'the butterfly' implies sending lots of commands of the type 'plot X,Y' to the graphics card when 'print "N"' commands would be much more efficient and would leave the Z380 to do more usefull things. > If the graphics card is going to be set up to accept commands (as opposed to > making the main processor write to the screen memory by itself) then what > you describe is almost certainly what will happen anyway. > > imc Ahh, but will the graphics board accept absolute 'I want a pixel at 800,927 please' commands or relative 'I want a pixel at 20,27 units from the top left of window 39 using that windows scale'. If the second method is used then all of the GUIs graphics functions can be done by the card without bothering the Z380. I tried to press the point that this is a good idea, and state that (for the GUI at least) the commands we send to the card should be of the resolution, scale and offset independent varity. If it is resolution independent then there will will be no problem with people who only have a TV using utilities that where designed with a high resolution in mind, as the command 'plot X,Y', 'print "j"', or 'openWindow X,Y,Xsc,Ysc' will call different routeens depending on the screen layout to give the same relative effect on the screen. We will need different 'plot at X,Y' procedures for each different type of mode anyway. Some of the new modes will have different resolutions yet will have similar layouts. So instead of writing a different print pixel/character routeen for each mode, a few scalable print routeens could be written. If such scalable routeens are used then there will be no problem with utilities designed to run in low resolutions from being tiny when used in higher resoutions. i.e. 'print "H"' will automaticaly write a 16*16 "H" or say a 8*8 "H" depending on the resolution. If we also make the routeens offset independent then there will be no need for the writer of the application to care where his window is on the screen, he can just write 'PRINT AT 3,8;"H"' (to use basic syntax) to the graphics card and it will workout where the top left of the window required is and what the scale of the window is with respect to the default size the programmer designed the application to. The card can then find exactly where 3,8 would be and write a "H" of the correct size there. The windows could be moved around, re-sized to whatever the user requires and the application doesn't need to know -leaving the programmer to think about what it does, fealing safe with the library of fool-proof graphics functions handled by an entirely different chip. When the mouse button is clicked, the RISK chip could... Determine which window is active at that point; Use the windows current scale and offset to calculate the co-ordinate of this point with respect to the dimensions the relevent utility uses to write to the window; Send this information to the utility so that it may act on the information. What do you think? The Z380 can be used entirely for the applications and CLI. No need for the butterfly etc.. within the GUI. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 04:02:49 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611170422.EAA04269@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 04:22:53 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 145 Lines: 5 Please read each occurance of 'routeen' in my last post as if it was the word 'routine'. I realy get on my nerves sometimes! ;o) C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 08:43:02 1996 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 03:11:24 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: My C compiler To: sam users Message-Id: <199611170311_MC1-C13-4FFB@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 481 Lines: 30 Dear Blackadder (and anyone else) I have generated a little interest but forgot to mention where the compiler can be got. My catalogue is dated July 1995 so could be out of date. Write to: Grey Matter Prigg Meadow Ashburton Devon TQ13 7DF Phone 01364 654100 Fax 01364 654200 Product is: Hi-Tech IDE HTXCZ80 Only :( UKP 640.00 + VAT of UKP 112.00 discount of 10% on orders of over UKP1000.00 :-( Or to put it another way: don't moan about the cost of SAM software. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 11:22:24 1996 From: Lord Blackadder To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-7.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 00:40:26 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <848218405.516974.0@orinocco.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 866 Lines: 27 > From: Simon Cooke [stuff about FATs] > > Look, just because Microsoft /think/ they invented computing, you don't > > have to go along with it. FATs been around longer than MS-DOS. > > Actually, they haven't. The FAT was invented by Microsoft for their DOS. > > Before then, it was called something completely different (File Extents, > and File Allocation Bitmaps usually) > > Simon Actually it was probably invented by the company that Microsoft bought their DOS off. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the company?! MS bought it so they wouldn't lose the sale of their BASIC to IBM. It would have been a lot nicer if CPM had become the standard... Ho Hum -- Lord Blackadder, Entropy Technology. Blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk http://www.orinocco.demon.co.uk "Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 12:23:22 1996 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:10:36 GMT Message-Id: <199611171210.MAA09764@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: My C compiler From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam users X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 225 Lines: 13 On Nov 17, 1996 03:11:24, 'Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com>' wrote: >Or to put it another way: >don't moan about the cost of SAM software. > >Nev. -- You tell um. Samsboss. (Who told um de udder day) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 12:23:27 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Like a virgin? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:06:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611170201.CAA26289@hermes.clara.net> from "David Ledbury" at Nov 17, 96 01:58:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1152 Lines: 33 > > Anyone fancy a summary of SAMSON ideas for a virgin to the newsgroup? > Well, it a succcessor to SAM - but perhaps the first thing to mention is that it's oly supposed to be discussed within this newsgroup - if it gets bandied about too much then existing SAM sales may die.... The [mostly] preferred option at the moment is to make it a group of i/o boards for the SAM - and here is a list of what seems most popular Large SRAM bank to replace ROM for GUI New sound chip New processor board - probably using a z380 Graphics accelerator New SAMBus with buffers on data lines Clock/calendar card The SAMson would then, probably, be all the above in a nice PC type case, along with the SAM circuitry (although it would not have the SAA1099 and would probably also have a new disc controller - and a new PSU) I think that's most of it. We've had lots of discussions over how it should be marketed (internet machine? boffin manchine? PCW type machine?) and how much it should cost (299 seems popular) and what sort of processor, GUI structure, case colour, monitor only, etc.... Anyway, hopefully things are going to get going soon... -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 12:23:34 1996 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:16:01 GMT Message-Id: <199611171216.MAA09963@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 677 Lines: 19 On Nov 17, 1996 02:15:07, 'SL Harding ' wrote: >What do you think? >The Z380 can be used entirely for the applications and CLI. No need for >the butterfly etc.. within the GUI. >Numb. -- Total. 101% agreement. Keep the screen overhead on the Z380 as low as possible by only sending primitive commands. Make the graphics card do all the work. A side effect would be that when the SON OF ARM comes along, a new graphic card can be done, and you dont have to mod the application software one little bit (while of course new application software can use any new features that come along). Samsboss. Full of agreement, as well as a $%&^ cold. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 12:23:34 1996 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:18:38 GMT Message-Id: <199611171218.MAA10216@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Like a virgin? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 581 Lines: 27 On Nov 17, 1996 01:58:36, 'David Ledbury ' wrote: >Anyone fancy a summary of SAMSON ideas for a virgin to the newsgroup? No. > >By the way, can anyone recommend some good SAM www sites, that I might not >know about? No. > >Who's planning to go the the Feb Wetherby show? Particularly from outside the >UK? And can we make sure >it's better promoted this time? > No. And it was well promoted last time. >David L. -- Samsboss. (Staying down South in Feb cos its warmer - those northern winds go right up a ladies skirts you know!) From imc Sun Nov 17 14:36:56 1996 Subject: Re: Sam interlacing To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:36:56 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Nov 15, 96 05:38:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 756 Lines: 16 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:38:24 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > In fact, interlacing to produce extra resolution is > never possible on the Sam's circuitry because every screen is exactly the > same. No half-pixel differences or anything. One picture is displayed > every 1/50 of a second. I forgot to mention that it is in theory possible to double the resolution by interlacing, *if* you make sure that the display is moving steadily upwards (or downwards) at a speed of 25 pixels per second (the same effect can destroy the interlacing effect of an ordinary TV picture). I imagine that under most circumstances this is rather difficult to do, but I guess someone could try it for something simple (like a vertical scrolly). imc From imc Sun Nov 17 14:43:34 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:43:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1B90BC6298@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 15, 96 08:31:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1012 Lines: 30 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 20:31:46 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > To quote Ian Collier : > > On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:43:09 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > > That way, it makes (maybe?) sense to have four butterfly routines > > > (6x8, 8x8, 6x16, 8x16) > > What about mode 4? > *** > Eh? > *** How are you planning to print mode 4 text? The current butterfly routine only works in mode 3. There is an obvious way to extend this to mode 4, but it requires a completely different format of character set. > > A single 6x8 "butterfly" character set with 192 characters occupies 6K. How > > much memory are you willing to spend on this? > Hokay, er, isn't the 6x8 character set **EXACTLY** the same as the > 8x8 one? Like, it IS the same one? The 6x8 one has one pixel at each side chopped off. Therefore it is shifted relative to the 8x8 one, and you'll need one of each format if you want to do it properly. Also, although the 6x16 and 8x16 ones look the same they will have to be stored in a different order. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 14:58:43 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <999.199611171456@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:56:06 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611170422.EAA04269@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Nov 17, 96 04:22:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 176 Lines: 6 > > Please read each occurance of 'routeen' in my last post as if it was > the word 'routine'. Does this mean that we can correct all the RISKs to RISCs instead, as well? :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 14:59:51 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <1199.199611171458@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Internet To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:58:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961116165124_1983457429@emout07.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 16, 96 04:51:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 168 Lines: 4 > Very good point. I think any software should be SOOOO easy, you won't even > need on-scree help files. Good idea - but the on screen help should still be available. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 15:12:50 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <1827.199611171504@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:04:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611151658.AA06820@booth5.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 15, 96 04:58:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 360 Lines: 6 > More importantly, the butterfly printing routine is only suitable for mode > 3 and the masking bit is only used in 80-column mode. We want a routine Okay, I was hoping this would die out, but it hasn't - so what exactly is this butterfly print? If it's the one used in the current version of the Fred reader, then I'd rather have something else, please... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 15:35:59 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:37:00 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <46A8641D0D@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1262 Lines: 25 > The Z380 can be used entirely for the applications and CLI. No need for > the butterfly etc.. within the GUI. > Numb. ooh, heck. I was under the impression (someone had said, I think) that the Z80 was going to be used for text and the ultra-lowest of the res screen modes. Otherwise, if not, fine, good suggestions indeed. Anyway, I've thought, if you want to retain SAM compatibility, you wouldn't be able to replace the PRINT routine in the basic rom with the btterfly one anyway, would you... hmmmm... Presumably someone will have to write the graphics libraries for the RISC chip... so couldn't the butterfly technique be implemented there instead? (**OBVIOUSLY** dependant on the screen mode, I know - maybe a couple of versions of the code for situations where the scaling code would be ignored) plus a couple of routines for when you would want the libraries to use the scaling of the current windows, etc. Did that make sense? I'm finding it hard to describe what I'm thinking. davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 15:36:05 1996 Message-Id: <199611171528.PAA11632@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Like a virgin? Date: 17 Nov 1996 14:56:05 X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 321 Lines: 10 In a message of 17 Nov 96 Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: >> Anyone fancy a summary of SAMSON ideas for a virgin to the newsgroup? Sup> No. Sup> No. Sup> No. Sup> And it was well promoted last time. You hostile little sh!t. Why don't you tell us who you are, or shut the f*ck up. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 15:50:24 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:45:51 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <46CDB3173A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2540 Lines: 75 > From: Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk > Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:43:34 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 20:31:46 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > To quote Ian Collier : > > > On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:43:09 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > > > That way, it makes (maybe?) sense to have four butterfly routines > > > > (6x8, 8x8, 6x16, 8x16) > > > > What about mode 4? > > > *** > > Eh? > > *** > > How are you planning to print mode 4 text? The current butterfly routine > only works in mode 3. There is an obvious way to extend this to mode 4, but > it requires a completely different format of character set. Erm, probably use the 8x8 butterfly routine, or the 8x16 one. Rather than the 6x8 or 6x16 ones. Maybe it wasn't clear. > > > > A single 6x8 "butterfly" character set with 192 characters occupies 6K. How > > > much memory are you willing to spend on this? > > > Hokay, er, isn't the 6x8 character set **EXACTLY** the same as the > > 8x8 one? Like, it IS the same one? > > The 6x8 one has one pixel at each side chopped off. Therefore it is shifted > relative to the 8x8 one, and you'll need one of each format if you want to > do it properly. Not on my SAM it's not. The 8x8 font has a blank column of pixels on the left hand side and two blank columns of pixels on the right hand side. So, the actual CHARACER information is stored in bits 2-6 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | |X|X|X| | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X| | | |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X| | | |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X|X|X|X|X| | | something like this anyway. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X| | | |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X| | | |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X| | | |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ The 6x8 routine only uses the left-hand-most 6 bits. > > Also, although the 6x16 and 8x16 ones look the same they will have to be > stored in a different order. I'm not too sure, but you're probably right. Anyway, ok, what's **SO** bad about using 4x(8k character sets) to benefit? Especially if it's all going on the graphics board now anyway. 32k. Oh, come to think of it, it _does_ sound rather big now... ;) Forget I spoke davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 15:50:25 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <15287.199611171548@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Like a virgin? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:48:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611171528.PAA11632@mail.enterprise.net> from "Dave Whitmore" at Nov 17, 96 02:56:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 193 Lines: 5 > Sup> No. Sup> And it was well promoted last time. > You hostile little sh!t. > Why don't you tell us who you are, or shut the f*ck up. Dave, you took the words right out of my mouth... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 15:58:55 1996 Subject: GCC... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:28:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Nov17.155138+0000_gmt.48505-2853+104@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 313 Lines: 10 Hi Everyone (in particular Ian though) Is it possible to write our own back-end for GCC? I've been reading through the docs, and it appears at least possible, but I've not come across anything that determines memory maps in it... Also, are there any Z80 back-ends for GCC out there already? Thanks, Si Cooke From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 15:59:08 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:30:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <1827.199611171504@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Nov 17, 96 03:04:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Nov17.155138+0000_gmt.48507-2853+105@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 461 Lines: 14 > > More importantly, the butterfly printing routine is only suitable for mode > > 3 and the masking bit is only used in 80-column mode. We want a routine > > Okay, I was hoping this would die out, but it hasn't - so what exactly > is this butterfly print? If it's the one used in the current version > of the Fred reader, then I'd rather have something else, please... Of course it isn't... Check the email I put up with the routine in... gawd.... :) Si From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 16:14:31 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <16146.199611171602@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:02:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96Nov17.155138+0000_gmt.48507-2853+105@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 17, 96 03:30:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 111 Lines: 4 > Check the email I put up with the routine in... gawd.... Can't, I'm afraid - I don't have it any more. :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 18:23:43 1996 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 17:55:15 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. In-Reply-To: <199611171216.MAA09963@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1104 Lines: 31 On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > On Nov 17, 1996 02:15:07, 'SL Harding ' wrote: > Total. 101% agreement. Keep the screen overhead on the Z380 as low as > possible by only sending primitive commands. Make the graphics card do all > the work. > > A side effect would be that when the SON OF ARM comes along, a new graphic > card can be done, and you dont have to mod the application software one > little bit (while of course new application software can use any new > features that come along). > > Samsboss. > Full of agreement, as well as a $%&^ cold. > But But But But... Surely, until the new graphic card is developed, the processor will need to do all graphic processing itself, onto (perhaps) the Sam's internal memory for MODE4 display. And how far do we take this? a) The proposed web server will need to do things like display GIFs and whatever else. Can the graphics card do that unaided? b) Many games are based on sprites, how easily can we tell the graphics card how to draw those - without plotting the individual pixels? Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 18:23:49 1996 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 17:48:07 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: NSSS In-Reply-To: <15287.199611171548@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 540 Lines: 22 On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > Sup> No. Sup> And it was well promoted last time. > > You hostile little sh!t. > > Why don't you tell us who you are, or shut the f*ck up. > > Dave, you took the words right out of my mouth... Might have taken some words out of Samsboss's mouth too, if we're lucky. Re NSSS I didn't think promotion was too bad; everybody knew about it, but nobody actually bothered to go. Putting it one month before Gloucester's was probably the biggest mistake. Did _you_ go, Samsboss? Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 19:15:03 1996 Original-Received: by ooh.dircon.co.uk (wcGATE v4) id 33727W Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:00:09 GMT Pp-Warning: Illegal Received field on preceding line From: kevin.cooper@ooh.dircon.co.uk (Kevin Cooper) Subject: Hello Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 16:49:08 GMT Message-Id: <9611171900096986@ooh.dircon.co.uk> Organization: Ooh! London 0181-395-3108. Wherever you go, there you are. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1658 Lines: 34 Well hello folks. Hope you don't mind be butting in like this, in the middle of your techy conversations about memory and completely incomprehensible discussions on Co-processors and CPU's to Coke cans and their impact on today's society. Anyway Dave Whitmore (yes hello Dave) sent me a load of your twaddle (g) that he has on his board (I think) and I thought I'd just send you all a quick (or quickish at least) hello. Well anything makes a change from Coke cans. He's going to send me on disk, to save me fluffing about downloading everything, a load of your messages so that I can catch up a bit. If he gets off his arse (just joking Davey) and doesn't do an impression of his namesake The Ledbury Boy (Hello to you as well Dave L if you're around here), i.e. if he doesn't sit around for two years or so (g) before sending me the stuff, I should have it by next weekend. Anyhow it's yet another boring Sunday afternoon and the smells of dinner are wafting up from the kitchen. Now the fat ones amond us (which I am not, I'm a skinny type-of-boyo - however I will of course not mention the names of any who I deem to be fat) will know that that means FOOD. And yes, hark, I hear the voice of my dad calling me down. Oooooo-er. Anyway this quick hello has turned long so I will go now. Oh yes, by the way, I am using Sam to type this on. Byeeeeeee.... Kev. Ooh! Communications Multiline 0181 395 3108 (33k6) --- ivEMAIL/WC4 v1.21 (c)1996 Ooh! Communications.. .+''''+. Please do not send UUEncoded files to this site. + Ooh! + WEB http://www.pncl.co.uk/~skuds/ooh/index.html `+.,,.+' Ooh! Communications, London Multiline 0181 395 3108 From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 19:15:03 1996 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 18:23:11 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games In-Reply-To: <961116165126_671217302@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3752 Lines: 79 On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >Well... there are a lot of really playable old games. But if we get a > >direct port-over, that's exactly what people will see them as: old games. > >A hacked spectrum snapshot of Elite is exactly the point here. > > A) it was not a snapshot. > B) if the code alread exists - why not use it. Okay, use 'snapshot' as a vague term. Surely what we have here is the spectrum code, converted in some way and running on a Sam in Mode 1. Playing the game, you will notice no difference between this and the spectrum version. As I said before, people will see this as nothing better than an old game. It is not helping to rid the Sam of its 'speccy with a disk drive' image. I'm fairly sure the Spectrum version has been re-released on budget, and I'm absolutely certain that the Spectrum version has been featured on at least one compilation (Flight Ace by Beau Jolly, along with Sentinel, Tetris, and I think two other games). Both of these options are much better value than buying the Sam 'version' of Elite (and totally legal. I have dismissed free and the 'not so legal' options of downloading a copy from the net, or from any of several PC magazine cover CD-ROMS of 'spectrum classics'.) As the head of an independant user group, (with no links to the software house other than distribution arrangements) should you not be taking care to inform and warn your members of the bad deal offered by Revelation? > C) it would have been difficult to consider changing the game without 1) > needing to print new versions of the manuals and 2) slowing the game down Incorrect. To rewrite the game running in Mode2 you get; a more logical screen structure, and probably easier to draw lines algorithmically, and also the processor runs marginally faster. So you have improvements in speed, and therfore smoothness. Adittionally, it is very possible to write significantly faster line-drawing routines if you have lots of memory (see Marc Broster's DWC demo on Fred50 for details). Thus you could also have music and sound effects, and other things, without slowing the game down. None of this implies that the game design itself would need to be changed, so manuals would not need to be altered, except perhaps for things like loading instructions etc, which could come on an extra sheet as per Lemmings or Prince of Persia. That is what I'm describing, a new rewritten, updated, improved version of the game; the sort of Sam software I'd like to buy. > Ok, that is the type of software YOU want to buy. But I think that is being > short-sighted. As an Elite player right from the dawn of the BBC version, > I've seen them all. The BBC was best, can't be beaten, because that was the > original. The C64 version was crap, the CPC not much better - because they > both tried to use filled shapes for the ships and they both tried to add new > twists which didn't work. 1) I don't think it is short-sighted to ask for the best possible version of a game. 2) It may be true in this case, but first doesn't always mean best. More often, quite the opposite in fact. Look at Throu' the Wall, and compare it to Batz n' Ballz. Look at Chequered Flag, and compare it to Wec Le Mans. Look at Knight Lore, and compare it to Head Over Heels. There are a myriad of other examples. > The Spectrum version stuck very close to the original BBC version and was, > considering the processor power, the smothest of the conversions. That was > why it was used as the basis for the SAM version. So far I have not heard of > any complaints from people who have bought it. But they'd be writing to Frank... wouldn't they? Has anyone on this list bought it? Why have you others not bought it? > >Andrew > Bob. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Nov 17 21:10:38 1996 Message-Id: <199611172110.VAA10797@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Games Date: 17 Nov 1996 21:07:02 References: X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1959 Lines: 33 * Cross-Reply from area 'ML-SAM.USERS' (ML-SAM.USERS) In a message of 17 Nov 96 A.S. Collier wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi A.S., ASC> Has anyone on this list bought it? I haven't. ASC> Why have you others not bought it? I got my speccy version on a cheap compilation (Beau Jolly - like you mentioned), years ago. I 'snapped' it on the old Plus D and it runs nicely on my Amiga emulator ZXAM. It'd also let me save the game, if I could be bothered playing it. Funnily enough, I used the "convrt" thing the other day to convert the .SNA back to a SAM file. What's wrong with just snapping the game in progress (Like Ian mentioned)? Long ago, when we (the SCAC) were advocating SAM as a great text adventure machine, we came up with lots of ideas to convert PAW and Quilled speccy games to use SAMs drive. Our efforts worked, and I used to sell the games through a licence with Zenobi software, but at the time we came under criticism from certain people for selling 'hacked' speccy games. They were quite popular though (considering the very small amount of advertising we did) and because I used to make very little on the deal, I kept the prices down, people came back for more and valued the service. However, the Adventure club died before Martijn Groen's (PD) PAW convertor program came out. This is a shame, because not only does it let you convert all the old PAW 48 & 128K spectrum games, it also lets you write them on SAM. Using crafty EXTERN commands, you can include MODE 4 graphics and more or less do anything you like with the remaining SAM memory. It plays etracker mods in the background and all loads and saves are patched. Some kind soul typed out the full technical manual for PAW and put it on NVG recently. Surely this is an area for SAM use that we could encourage? (and I mean the current SAM) Ooops! There I go.. changing the subject. :) Byeeee, _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 09:16:50 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118091411.008deab0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:14:11 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 522 Lines: 16 At 05:55 PM 11/17/96 +0000, you wrote: >And how far do we take this? >a) The proposed web server will need to do things like display GIFs and >whatever else. Can the graphics card do that unaided? Can't see why not. >b) Many games are based on sprites, how easily can we tell the graphics >card how to draw those - without plotting the individual pixels? Write a sprite routine in C and compile it for the ARM processor on the graphics board... or alternatively, use the ones which will probably be built in... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 09:16:51 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118091412.008dbc0c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:14:12 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Games Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Lines: 9 [Elite] >Has anyone on this list bought it? >Why have you others not bought it? I've not bought it -- already got my own hacked-to-bits snapshot of it on a compilation speccy disc I put together... Si From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 09:16:51 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118091413.008f4fc8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:14:13 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 551 Lines: 14 At 02:43 PM 11/17/96 +0000, Ian Collier wrote: [Character sets for the butterfly print] >The 6x8 one has one pixel at each side chopped off. Therefore it is shifted >relative to the 8x8 one, and you'll need one of each format if you want to >do it properly. Ummm... actually, this isn't really a problem... Why not just left shift the 6x8 character set by 1 pixel at the start of it all and be done with it? It doesn't make any difference to the 8x8 print routine -- and in 8x8 mode, there's still at least 2 pixels between each character. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 09:16:51 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118091414.008f1dcc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:14:14 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Internet Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 285 Lines: 12 At 02:58 PM 11/17/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: RO > >> Very good point. I think any software should be SOOOO easy, you won't even >> need on-scree help files. > >Good idea - but the on screen help should still be available. Yes... it's much easier than hunting for a manual. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 10:26:00 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:18:00 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam interlacing - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 935 Lines: 27 > In fact, interlacing to produce extra resolution is > never possible on the Sam's circuitry because every > screen is exactly the same. No half-pixel differences > or anything. One picture is displayed every 1/50 of a second. This has been the recurrent theme throughout this thread and it's all been covered before. > Which is why Banzai's 'Interlazer demo' (?) (on nvg) > fails to produce anything convincing whatsoever. 1) I never wrote the "interlace" routine, it was Mike Andrews. *laughs* to think I could write _anything_ in machine code... 2) So what? It's just a demo; something I was messing about with at the time and made a little program out of it. In doing what I wanted - putting two MODE3 screens on top of each other - it works. Granted it's not a true interlace and it's not flicker-free but it does what it's meant to do. And as for using 'Z's instead of 'S's in demo names- I'd rather die. :) Dan. From imc Mon Nov 18 11:12:28 1996 Subject: Re: Internet To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:12:28 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1199.199611171458@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Nov 17, 96 02:58:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 567 Lines: 13 On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:58:02 +0000 (GMT), Mr P R Walker said: > > Very good point. I think any software should be SOOOO easy, you won't even > > need on-scree help files. > Good idea - but the on screen help should still be available. People will still want to call a help line - presumably that of the internet provider - if something goes wrong (and especially if the Sam software has bugs in it, which is more or less impossible to avoid entirely). So you'd better make sure the people on the help line know what a Sam is and how to operate the software. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:13:05 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611181203.MAA08177@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:03:50 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3693 Lines: 95 > Total. 101% agreement. Keep the screen overhead on the Z380 as low as > possible by only sending primitive commands. Make the graphics card do > all the work. > > A side effect would be that when the SON OF ARM comes along, a new > graphic card can be done, and you dont have to mod the application software > one little bit (while of course new application software can use any new > features that come along). > > Samsboss. > We will have to develop a good library of the fastest standard GUI functions to live in standard places on the ARMs own flash memory. Will all future ARM chips be compatable with the one we are likely to go for? We must remember that at level 1 (M_Code launched from the CLI at level 2) the programmer has as got to have full access to all of the hardware. This implies that games launced from here must be able to stick their own graphics sub-routines on the graphics card, this is dangerous for upgradeability (yet necessary). Is there a trend in future ARM chips to develop in a sideways mannor i.e. new functionality? If this happens then at some point in time there will be some games that use the new functionality of the chip to get more performance out of the processor. These tricks would not work on the first generation of cards. Using such tricks in the new modes such a card would provide would be perfectly acceptable as the current users could not play the games anyway, but if they where used on the standard SAMSON modes, a large number of people would be very unhappy. What could we do about such conflicts of interest? We need to say now that all future graphics cards have to be 'licenced' by this newsgroup or some governing body of SAMsters. We do not want to lean towards a world where at some point there may be a number of different graphics card manufactures in competition with each other, so giving a number of different standards -as in the PC world (how many 3D accelerator standards are there today?!). > But But But But... > Surely, until the new graphic card is developed, the processor will need > to do all graphic processing itself, onto (perhaps) the Sam's internal > memory for MODE4 display. Do we want the old modes implemented on the new card? advantage: The full stand alone SAMSON would probably work out cheaper, due to the reduction in circuitary required. disadvantage: Compatability with the old SAM would be impossible if the Z380 or Z80 don't have any access to the new cards memory and the new card does not have any access to the standard memory. Can we have a compromise? i,Build the graphics card at the same time and on the board as the Z380 so both are finnished together -one will be useless without the other. ii,Write all software in the mean time on a PC emulator (as soom as it is finnished). iii,Have mode 1-4 implemented on the new card aswell as in the old sam (that wat we can drive 2 screens at once as a bonus! cool!). > And how far do we take this? > a) The proposed web server will need to do things like display GIFs and > whatever else. Can the graphics card do that unaided? > b) Many games are based on sprites, how easily can we tell the graphics > card how to draw those - without plotting the individual pixels? > Andrew Someone suggested that we use an ARM710 or whatever as the sole new processor of the machine! That leads me to beleve that it will be powerfull enough to handle all of the graphics routines we will ever need! But I would be happier if the Z380 had more access to the graphics cards memory, that way we can have no worries about having the graphics card working its socks off and a Z380 doing pratically nothing. C9 Numb. From imc Mon Nov 18 11:13:50 1996 Subject: Re: GCC... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:13:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96Nov17.155138+0000_gmt.48505-2853+104@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 17, 96 03:28:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 205 Lines: 8 On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:28:44 +0000 (GMT), Simon Cooke said: > Hi Everyone (in particular Ian though) So I'm an expert on gcc now am I? ;-) Sorry but all I know is how to compile a program with it. imc From imc Mon Nov 18 11:36:09 1996 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:36:09 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611181203.MAA08177@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Nov 18, 96 12:03:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 706 Lines: 19 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:03:50 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: [about programming for the son of graphics card] > but if they where used on the standard SAMSON modes, a large > number of people would be very unhappy. What could we do about such > conflicts of interest? Nothing. But if the users are unhappy they won't buy it and it will effectively die out anyway. > We need to say now that all future graphics cards have to be 'licenced' by > this newsgroup or some governing body of SAMsters. Don't be rediculous - how are you going to stop someone from selling whatever they want? On the other hand, they'd have to be mad to do it anyway, since there won't be any software for it. imc From imc Mon Nov 18 11:37:45 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:37:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961118091413.008f4fc8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 18, 96 09:14:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 422 Lines: 9 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:14:13 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > Ummm... actually, this isn't really a problem... Why not just left shift the > 6x8 character set by 1 pixel at the start of it all and be done with it? I don't really know what you are on about, but consider (a) the block graphics, (b) the copyright symbol, and (c) any UDGs that someone might poke in, and then tell me it's OK to shift all the characters... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:42:35 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:31:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM - PC stuff . . . In-Reply-To: <199611151820.SAA07076@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 373 Lines: 17 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: ;> ;>Samsboss. ;>(And no its not the wrong time of the month - I just can't stand ;>cheapskates) ;> Can't you accept the fact that some of us have no choice ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From imc Mon Nov 18 11:45:00 1996 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:45:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961118091411.008deab0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 18, 96 09:14:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1270 Lines: 28 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:14:11 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > At 05:55 PM 11/17/96 +0000, you wrote: > >And how far do we take this? > >a) The proposed web server will need to do things like display GIFs and > >whatever else. Can the graphics card do that unaided? > Can't see why not. Why would the graphics card need to do that unaided? I doubt if any existing ones do (and besides there's plenty of free source code out there for anyone who wants to write a graphics processing utility). > >b) Many games are based on sprites, how easily can we tell the graphics > >card how to draw those - without plotting the individual pixels? > Write a sprite routine in C and compile it for the ARM processor on the > graphics board... or alternatively, use the ones which will probably be > built in... Indeed. Sprites are going to be somewhat mode-dependent anyway. OK - if you design a sprite for the 256x192 mode then the graphics processor can easily use it in a 512x384 mode by doubling it up, but in most cases it will probably not look too good if you design a sprite for one resolution and use it in another. So you will probably give the sprite to the graphics board in a prepackaged format (such as a list of pixels) which is somewhat dependent on the mode. imc From imc Mon Nov 18 11:52:30 1996 Subject: Re: Games To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:52:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611172110.VAA10797@mail.enterprise.net> from "Dave Whitmore" at Nov 17, 96 09:07:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 582 Lines: 15 On 17 Nov 1996 21:07:02, Dave Whitmore said: [crlf edited (as in there are some now)] > Funnily enough, I used the "convrt" thing the other day to convert the > .SNA back to a SAM file. What's wrong with just snapping the game in > progress (Like Ian mentioned)? Well you do need a debounced NMI to do this with a reasonable degree of success. :-) (I used to do it before the surgery, and every dozen snaps the game would crash or do something stupid like not recognise one of the keys so eventually I transferred the whole thing to my +3 and saved games on tape instead.) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:53:21 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:36:17 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961118063616_1217319979@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Internet Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 381 Lines: 13 In a message dated 17/11/96 14:59:30, you write: >> Very good point. I think any software should be SOOOO easy, you won't even >> need on-scree help files. > >Good idea - but the on screen help should still be available. > > Quite agree, but even the screen helps are often difficult for a newcomer to use. Software needs to be very 'intuative' (hope I spelt that right). Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:53:22 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:36:22 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961118063621_1250876203@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Like a virgin???????????????????? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 351 Lines: 13 In a message dated 17/11/96 15:35:21, you write: >You hostile little sh!t. > >Why don't you tell us who you are, or shut the f*ck up. > > Now I don't think that type of reply was called for, well not really anyway. I do think he made a valid point that Allan did promote the first show quite well, there was about two months advanced notice. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:53:22 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:36:28 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961118063625_1384971563@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 894 Lines: 20 In a message dated 17/11/96 19:13:51, you write: >As the head of an independant user group, (with no links to the software >house other than distribution arrangements) should you not be taking care >to inform and warn your members of the bad deal offered by Revelation? > > But I don't think the game is bad value. I would recommend it to anyone who has not already purchased the original Spectrum version. It was THE most requested game in the survey Revelation did in the summer. The fact that you get the FULL packaging is also important (and Revelation could not have got permission if they had not agreed to use the packaging). I must admit that I cannot understand why anyone wants to knock it. Ok, if you already have the Sprectrum Elite, and you have the ability to transfer it to SAM disc, then you would not be interested, but don't knock it just because you don't want it. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:53:31 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:36:25 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961118063624_1317969323@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: NSSS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 720 Lines: 27 In a message dated 17/11/96 18:10:06, you write: >Re NSSS > >I didn't think promotion was too bad; everybody knew about it, but nobody >actually bothered to go. Putting it one month before Gloucester's was >probably the biggest mistake. > >Did _you_ go, Samsboss? > > >Andrew > > Allan did talk to me long and hard before he arranged the date. It was felt that Wetherby was far enough away from Gloucester not to cause too much overlap problems. And as the date was 5 weeks before Gloucester we thought he would hit the max possible audiance. His original date was in August but I told him that would be a bad time. I think that for a first effort - he did very well, both in the show and its promotion. Bob. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:53:52 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:36:23 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961118063622_1284415403@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 417 Lines: 11 In a message dated 17/11/96 15:35:22, you write: >ooh, heck. I was under the impression (someone had said, I think) >that the Z80 was going to be used for text and the ultra-lowest of >the res screen modes. Main SAM to handle modes 1 to 4, exactly as is so we have 100% compat. But, for higher screen modes I think the Z380 should drive a screen on the graphics card with commands - not by memory access. Bob.. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:53:55 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 06:36:27 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961118063626_1419701087@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 284 Lines: 11 In a message dated 18/11/96 09:14:42, you write: >Write a sprite routine in C and compile it for the ARM processor on the >graphics board... or alternatively, use the ones which will probably be >built in... > >Simon You seem to be thinking along the same lines as me Simon. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:54:56 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:43:13 GMT--1000 From: asc25 To: sam-users Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM X-Mailer: Mulberry [1.0.1, s/n #10001] X-Authenticated: asc25 by imap.hermes.cam.ac.uk X-Licensed-To: University of Cambridge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 299 Lines: 9 > iii,Have mode 1-4 implemented on the new card aswell as in the old sam > (that wat we can drive 2 screens at once as a bonus! cool!). Actually I've seen a Linux PC doing more or less that; a cheap greenscreen monitor was displaying the system logs etc etc. Rather pointless it was too. Andrew From imc Mon Nov 18 11:54:58 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:54:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <46CDB3173A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 17, 96 03:45:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1264 Lines: 39 On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:45:51 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > How are you planning to print mode 4 text? The current butterfly routine > > only works in mode 3. There is an obvious way to extend this to mode 4, but > > it requires a completely different format of character set. > Erm, probably use the 8x8 butterfly routine, or the 8x16 one. > Rather than the 6x8 or 6x16 ones. Maybe it wasn't clear. I meant "completely different format" in the sense that the mode 3 character sets would be no use in mode 4, just in case there was any other interpretation... > Not on my SAM it's not. The 8x8 font has a blank column of pixels on > the left hand side and two blank columns of pixels on the right hand > side. > So, the actual CHARACER information is stored in bits 2-6 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | | |X|X|X| | | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | |X| | | |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | |X| | | |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | |X|X|X|X|X| | | something like this anyway. > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | |X| | | |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | |X| | | |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | |X| | | |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | | | | | | | | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > The 6x8 routine only uses the left-hand-most 6 bits. What does the copyright symbol look like on your Sam? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 11:55:34 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:42:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Viruses... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 998 Lines: 25 On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Johnna Teare wrote: > Hello... > > If anyone gets an email entitled Irinia, DO NOT open it!!! > I've just been informed it's a new virus that gets you through the > mail so just bin it and hope it does no damage. Sounds like the Good Times "virus" to me... > I hope that when the SAMSon gets up and running nobody will be > childish enough to write viruses for it. Some PC owners are so > stupid... The PC has SO many security flaws it's unbelievable... I tried writing a password inputting routine and no matter what I came up with, there was a way to beat it using TSRs! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From imc Mon Nov 18 12:02:32 1996 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:02:32 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <46A8641D0D@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 17, 96 03:37:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 727 Lines: 16 On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:37:00 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > Presumably someone will have to write the graphics libraries for the > RISC chip... so couldn't the butterfly technique be implemented there > instead? It probably wouldn't be any use, since I imagine the screen will be stored as one (or more) byte per pixel so there wouldn't be any advantage in printing things in a silly order. What you'll need to be able to do is split a byte of character data into bits, but I imagine the ARM can do that efficiently without even using a table. However, if you want the ARM to print stuff for you then it will need a copy of the font. How will this be arranged? Will you be able to select from several different fonts? imc From imc Mon Nov 18 12:09:27 1996 Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:09:27 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961116171749_1682308535@emout02.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 16, 96 05:17:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1018 Lines: 25 On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 17:17:50 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Sorry Ian, have to disagree. Way back in my mainframe days the mega big > (60Mega-words each of 24 bits - and that was big in 1977) hard discs had > FATs, not the same as SAM, not the same as PC, but thery were FATs. Were they actually called FATs, or are you just calling it that in hindsight? > SAM's (and the PLUS D's & DISCiPLE's) Sector Allocation Map, Is that how the computer got its name? :-) > The fact that the file's S.A.M. (stored in the directory) is only a > map of that file does not make it any less a FAT that the type of FAT used by > MS-DOS. Yes it does. It's a map, not a table. Besides, whatever you think (or know) the word FAT is supposed to mean, the fact is that it has now been associated with PC disks for so long that it would be silly to try and attach that word to anything else. imc PS if you look up FAT in Tanenbaum's "Operating Systems" book you will find a description of a PC disk and nothing else. From imc Mon Nov 18 12:21:37 1996 Subject: Re: Games To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:21:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961116165126_671217302@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 16, 96 04:51:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1817 Lines: 36 On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:51:28 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > A) it was not a snapshot. > B) if the code alread exists - why not use it. > C) it would have been difficult to consider changing the game without 1) > needing to print new versions of the manuals and 2) slowing the game down The last time this subject was raised someone already told you the minimum that we expected from a Sam version of Elite, which would have neither required a new manual nor slowed the game down. I don't think there's any point in going through that again (besides, you can find it in my sam-users archives). > The Spectrum version stuck very close to the original BBC version Except of course that the manual for the Spectrum version still claims you can turn the docking computer on *and off* with the C key, even though on the Spectrum the docking computer rather disappointingly docks you immediately rather than flying you in, under the pretence that it puts you into cram-sleep (I've never played the BBC version so I don't know whether it does that, but I doubt it). The speccy version logic for showing the "S" symbol on the front panel seems decidedly dodgy because if you are just on the outskirts of the station's influence it can depend on which way you are facing. Also, if you get into a fight they won't stop attacking you when the S appears, which I gather from the manual they are supposed to. Mind you, spinning round on your axis until the S flashes on and then operating the docking computers can get you out of a bad scrape (I doubt this was intentional). After playing the PC version I was rather disappointed to discover that all four kinds of laser had identical graphics on the Speccy version - I don't know whether that was the case on the BBC version. Anyway, this is all idle chatter... imc From imc Mon Nov 18 12:28:24 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:28:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96Nov16.183515+0000_gmt.48036-2853+86@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 16, 96 06:09:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 579 Lines: 16 On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 18:09:47 +0000 (GMT), Simon Cooke said: > > A single 6x8 "butterfly" character set with 192 characters occupies 6K. How > > much memory are you willing to spend on this? > In Termite, I actually use 8K :) You can then show VT100, or PC extended > character codes (the ones which correspond to 0-31) Well OK, if you want 256 characters... :-) But you don't need chars 0-31 on a Sam, and you don't need them in "less" either. I don't suppose you actually print anything when you receive 8, 9, 10, 13 or 27, so you don't actually need all 256... :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 12:35:47 1996 Message-Id: <199611181155.MAA23963@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: GCC... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 12:55:14 MET In-Reply-To: <96Nov17.155138+0000_gmt.48505-2853+104@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no>; from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 17, 96 3:28 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3524 Lines: 82 > > Hi Everyone (in particular Ian though) > > Is it possible to write our own back-end for GCC? I've been reading > through the docs, and it appears at least possible, but I've not come > across anything that determines memory maps in it... It's probably possible, but two complications come up 1) As far as I know all the gcc backends use use two features of CPUs which do not exist on the Z80, namely frame pointer manipulation and stack frames. The former refers to the ability to address the stack through an indexed addressing mode, ie in x86 MOV AX,[BP+DI] - loads AX with the contents of the offset BP+DI in the stack segment. This allows the compiler to keep track of the position in the C code - required for debuggers. Stack frames are blocks of memory in the stack used to pass varaibles to functions. Basically the CPU can automatically allocate memory and move the stack pointer with a single instruction - ENTER and LEAVE on x86. Both of these could be done on a z80, but it requires quite a bit of register manipulation resulting in inefficient code 2) gcc works on a FLAT memory model, unlike REAL mode PC DOS compilers it has no concept of near and far. For a z80 (rather than a z380) C compiler a segmentated approach would be essential. I think a version of gcc for the z380 is certainly possible. > > Also, are there any Z80 back-ends for GCC out there already? No - and I've check quite widely. I've also been in contact with the writers of the other public domain C compilers bcc, c68 (the QL one) and lcc. The latter one is probably our best bet for the SAM. There is a rumour of a 6502 backend for lcc - the only 8-bit version I have come across. The other point is that the C compiler itself is ONLY the first step. Even with the backend all we get is assembly. For proper C developement we need a proper assembler which produces object files (a normal SAM one won't do) together with a linker and library generator etc. These last steps have never existed for the SAM (Sam-C sidesteps the issue). They have been done on z80 though on CP/M. C programs are usually processed in the following way (even in DOS) myfile1.c\ / myfile1.o \ myfile2.c +- COMPILER -> Assembler -+ myfile1.o + LINKER -> myfile1.exe myfile3.c/ \ myfile1.o / SOURCE FILES OBJECT FILES EXE FILE Note that ONLY at the LINKER stage do the lables get resolved to an address in memory, this is fundementally different to standard assemblers There is never the concept of a code file being created in memory. If you remove the compiler stage, this is the way assembly is done on a PC - ie assembly source file NEVER contain an ORG statement. With this approach code generation is far easier. Allan > Thanks, > Si Cooke > -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 12:35:50 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:57:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Like a virgin? In-Reply-To: <199611171528.PAA11632@mail.enterprise.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 585 Lines: 22 On 17 Nov 1996, Dave Whitmore wrote: ;>In a message of 17 Nov 96 Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: ;> ;> ;> >> Anyone fancy a summary of SAMSON ideas for a virgin to the newsgroup? Sup> No. ;> Sup> No. ;> Sup> No. Sup> And it was well promoted last time. ;>You hostile little sh!t. ;> ;>Why don't you tell us who you are, or shut the f*ck up. ;> Well said, this idiot is getting right on my .... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 12:45:53 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL. Harding) Message-Id: <199611181203.MAA29298@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:03:14 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <999.199611171456@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Nov 17, 96 02:56:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 280 Lines: 9 > > Please read each occurance of 'routeen' in my last post as if it was > > the word 'routine'. > > Does this mean that we can correct all the RISKs to RISCs instead, > as well? :) > Just make sure that any contribution I make to the help files is spell checked! :o) Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 13:04:20 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:28:35 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 480 Lines: 22 > > SAM's (and the PLUS D's & DISCiPLE's) Sector Allocation Map, > > Is that how the computer got its name? :-) Hmm, 'The FAT Coupe' sounds better to me, we could have nicknamed it 'Jabba' :)) > Yes it does. It's a map, not a table. I seem to remember that the last two bytes in a sector hold the track/sector of the next sector to read - or have I got the wrong end of the stick? > PS if you look up FAT in Tanenbaum's "Operating Systems" book Aha, the Bible :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 13:18:36 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118130309.008edfe8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:03:09 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: GCC... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 430 Lines: 16 At 11:13 AM 11/18/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:28:44 +0000 (GMT), Simon Cooke said: >> Hi Everyone (in particular Ian though) > >So I'm an expert on gcc now am I? ;-) > >Sorry but all I know is how to compile a program with it. Ah well... you seem to have a lot of computing knowledge from a hell of a lot of distinct areas, so I was hoping that you'd know something about that side of GCC :) Si From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 13:29:03 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL. Harding) Message-Id: <199611181255.MAA06148@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:55:16 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611181145.AA00672@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 18, 96 11:45:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2342 Lines: 48 > > >a) The proposed web server will need to do things like display GIFs and > > >whatever else. Can the graphics card do that unaided? > > Why would the graphics card need to do that unaided? I doubt if any > existing ones do (and besides there's plenty of free source code out > there for anyone who wants to write a graphics processing utility). So the Z380 can be doing something more usefull. I don't think a second back end for the C compiler to compile graphics card code is a good idea. All of the code for the graphics card will need to be superfast by definition. > Sprites are going to be somewhat mode-dependent anyway. OK - if > you design a sprite for the 256x192 mode then the graphics processor can > easily use it in a 512x384 mode by doubling it up, but in most cases it > will probably not look too good if you design a sprite for one resolution > and use it in another. So you will probably give the sprite to the graphics > board in a prepackaged format (such as a list of pixels) which is somewhat > dependent on the mode. > imc There is no real need to provide much in the way of scaling sprite procedures on the cards flash as sprites are only realy going to be used from level 1 where there is no need to worry about the scalling and re-positioning a decent GUI requires. At level 1 the writer of the game will want to write his own dedicated routine anyway. I surpose we will also need to plan out an area of the ARMS memory as a map as to the locations of the various routines, that way it will be easy for GUI applications (such as 3D modelers) to stick their own dedicated code in. Again, there is no need for level 1 programs to bother with such luxurys as they do not live ontop of the GUI, but at a parallel level to the CLI. If a GUI application wants to use sprites (such as a screensaver might) it would probably be wisest to send the sprite to the card, allocate and put it into the 'I am a RISC program honest' memory. It would also need a short piece of code infront that points to the start of the sprite (the version that now lives in the AMSs own memory) and calls the simple sprite routine we do provide on the flash. Again, I would much prefer it if the Z380 had enough access to the cards graphic memory to help out in a graphics intensive game. Is this possible / practical? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:00:58 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:54:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@dedekind.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 In-Reply-To: <18CB274D2B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1004 Lines: 20 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > > On the Speccy it is the kempston joystick port. I don't know what it does > > on the Sam but if it produces random numbers then the program probably > > thinks you are wiggling the joystick. > I think on the SAM it is held at some rather nasty value which > decodes as 'UP and LEFT and RIGHT and FIRE' if the software reads it > as a joystick input... Preferred sinclair joysticks anyway... So, I suppose going through the code changing IN a,(31) to LD a,0 would work? (assuming I find the right routines... otherwise I'd probably be writing over graphics...) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:03:15 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:57:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@dedekind.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT&CP/M In-Reply-To: <848218405.516974.0@orinocco.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1271 Lines: 29 On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Lord Blackadder wrote: > > From: Simon Cooke > [stuff about FATs] > > > > Look, just because Microsoft /think/ they invented computing, you don't > > > have to go along with it. FATs been around longer than MS-DOS. > > > > Actually, they haven't. The FAT was invented by Microsoft for their DOS. I thought FATs were invented for CP/M and Microsoft nicked the idea.. > Actually it was probably invented by the company that Microsoft bought > their DOS off. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the > company?! MS bought it so they wouldn't lose the sale of their BASIC to > IBM. It would have been a lot nicer if CPM had become the standard... Typical Microsoft ploy... I agree about the CP/M... I often use my CP/M emulator on my PC playing with my Pro-DOS stuff.. :) I knew my PC was good at something! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:10:27 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:52:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@dedekind.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 - Reply In-Reply-To: <183136571C@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 605 Lines: 16 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > When I sent my 256K disc-based SAM for repair, it came back minus the > disc drive ... > > so I suppose, rightfully, your discdrive belongs to me ;) No chance! :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:11:11 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118140513.00920480@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:05:13 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 493 Lines: 17 At 06:36 AM 11/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 18/11/96 09:14:42, you write: > >>Write a sprite routine in C and compile it for the ARM processor on the >>graphics board... or alternatively, use the ones which will probably be >>built in... >> >>Simon > >You seem to be thinking along the same lines as me Simon. It makes the most sense to do it this way; take as much load as possible from the SAM and put it on the graphics card, allowing the SAM to do other things... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:12:00 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:42:22 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Industrial revolution Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 758 Lines: 17 I had a tour of Radio Lancashire the other day, and what machine should I see sitting at th eart of the operation? Well, no it wasn't a SAM (althought he editor of teh sation was called Steve Taylor - spooky!) - It was an Acorn Electron. Bit prehistoric really, but I was told that they were upgrading to PC's shortly. Does anybody know of anywhere that the SAM has been used outside of the home? Or of anywhere that uses 8Bit machines for anything anymore? We've just had a load of our PC's upgraded from 486's to Pentiums and for some reason, this one that I'm working on seems to be about four times slower. Will 33Mhz be enough for SAMSon (or am I being really ignorant)? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:12:00 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:04:59 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D1FF6657B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1589 Lines: 51 > What does the copyright symbol look like on your Sam? Who cares? I NEVER use it in mode 3. ;) I guess it **MUST** be something like this: (I know it's not round like the speccy one) +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X|X|X|X| | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |X| | | | |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |X| |X|X| |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |X| |X| | |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |X| |X|X| |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |X| | | | |X| | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X|X|X|X| | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Certainly, when you LOAD IN a new font data to 20880, and try printing it in mode 3, it only seems to chop off the right-hand-side of a wide character, say, a W like this: than a pixel off either side. mode 4 (8x8 like the same data the font was displayed in mode 3 designed for) +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ |X| | | | | |X| | |X| | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ |X| | | | | |X| | |X| | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X| | | |X| | | | |X| | | |X| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X| |X| |X| | | | |X| |X| |X| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | |X| |X| |X| | | | |X| |X| |X| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | |X| |X| | | | | | |X| |X| | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | |X| |X| | | | | | |X| |X| | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:13:11 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118140645.00931404@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:06:45 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 643 Lines: 15 At 11:37 AM 11/18/96 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:14:13 +0000, Simon Cooke said: >> Ummm... actually, this isn't really a problem... Why not just left shift the >> 6x8 character set by 1 pixel at the start of it all and be done with it? > >I don't really know what you are on about, but consider (a) the block >graphics, (b) the copyright symbol, and (c) any UDGs that someone might >poke in, and then tell me it's OK to shift all the characters... Ahhh... the only one I can see a problem with is the block graphics, but I do see your point... (well, okay, maybe with the UDGs as well if they're for lumping together). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:13:25 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:12:02 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D3E012878@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1736 Lines: 29 > It probably wouldn't be any use, since I imagine the screen will be stored > as one (or more) byte per pixel so there wouldn't be any advantage in > printing things in a silly order. What you'll need to be able to do is > split a byte of character data into bits, but I imagine the ARM can do > that efficiently without even using a table. > > However, if you want the ARM to print stuff for you then it will need a > copy of the font. How will this be arranged? Will you be able to select > from several different fonts? .. it's just that it seemed to make sense to get the ARM to do the printing. More efficient that way, (possibly), especially considering the suggestion (by, who, again?) that the ARM could do loads of other dedicated acceleration tasks (window hotspot detection, graphic scaling, etc) If the ARM is going to be used only for screen modes 5 and onwards, what's wrong with storing the font for these modes in a part of the memory on the graphic board? If the problem is a mismatch between the fonts in modes1-4 and the fonts in modes 5+, tough, because I can't forsee any application wanting to use a mode <=4 together with a mode >=5. And even if it did (for example, to allow the application to run on an unexpanded SAM (ie, one without the ARM processing graphics modes) as well as an expanded one) then there's nothing wrong with it being supplied with two font images - one for the SAM rom to deal with and one for the ARM to deal with. +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:14:06 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:07:25 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT&CP/M - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 332 Lines: 10 > I thought FATs were invented for CP/M and Microsoft nicked the idea.. Spot on. Microsoft thieved most of CP/M to make QDOS and then MSDOS which was bundled out as something to run MS Basic on. Futher enlightenment can be found in the book 'Accidental Empires' by Robert Cringely. It was also on the telly a while back. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:20:10 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118141150.00969a00@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:11:50 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 782 Lines: 20 At 11:45 AM 11/18/96 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:14:11 +0000, Simon Cooke said: >> At 05:55 PM 11/17/96 +0000, you wrote: >> >And how far do we take this? >> >a) The proposed web server will need to do things like display GIFs and >> >whatever else. Can the graphics card do that unaided? > >> Can't see why not. > >Why would the graphics card need to do that unaided? I doubt if any >existing ones do (and besides there's plenty of free source code out >there for anyone who wants to write a graphics processing utility). If we've got the room in the ROM for it all at the end of the day, then we may as well stick it in. If you think of this not so much as a Graphics Card as a coprocessor (with gfx and sound tacked on) then it becomes a little clearer. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:29:25 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:22:16 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D6A29590B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2705 Lines: 57 > If this happens then at some point in time there will be some games that > use the new functionality of the chip to get more performance out of the > processor. These tricks would not work on the first generation of cards. > Using such tricks in the new modes such a card would provide would be > perfectly acceptable as the current users could not play the games > anyway, but if they where used on the standard SAMSON modes, a large > number of people would be very unhappy. What could we do about such > conflicts of interest? > > We need to say now that all future graphics cards have to be 'licenced' by > this newsgroup or some governing body of SAMsters. We do not want to lean > towards a world where at some point there may be a number of different > graphics card manufactures in competition with each other, so giving a > number of different standards -as in the PC world (how many 3D accelerator > standards are there today?!). Hmmm. That is a good question ... I think this is a problem that has no real-life solution: give people more hardware/software power at their fingertips and they will have a go at attempting to drain all they can out of it. If this means games programmers wring the power out of the ARM chip, then when the next-generation ARM comes out they'll want to try their hand at that, and probably, unfortunately, without providing backward compatibility for the earlier ARMs... [snip] > But I would be happier if the Z380 had more access to the graphics cards > memory, that way we can have no worries about having the graphics card > working its socks off and a Z380 doing pratically nothing. What's wrong with that? ;) As long as you're presented with two processors, the workload is going to be shared so that neither would work as hard as if it was the sole processor on the machine. Splitting the graphics routines away from the Z380 means the Z380 can process everything else more efficiently, sending only simple commands to the ARM. Similarly, the ARM would be a dedicated hardware graphics processor. If you wanted new graphics routines, you'd probably want to send them to the ARM anyway, rather than get the Z380 also doing graphics stuff. (someone mentioned an ARM with a learn command?) The graphics card working its socks off is still a better option than a Z380 working its socks off trying to process the graphics AND everything else... > C9 eh? CYZ davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:43:36 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <3114.199611181425@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT&CP/M - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:25:42 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Doore" at Nov 18, 96 02:07:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 390 Lines: 10 > Spot on. Microsoft thieved most of CP/M to make QDOS and then MSDOS which was > bundled out as something to run MS Basic on. Um - I think you'll find Microsoft actually /bought/ QDos, rather than wrote it. > Futher enlightenment can be found in the book 'Accidental Empires' by Saw the thing on TV, and I keep meaning to buy the book - unfortunately I never have any money spare. :/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:44:43 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:29:48 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5D89D57A28@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 646 Lines: 15 > Ahhh... the only one I can see a problem with is the block graphics, but I > do see your point... (well, okay, maybe with the UDGs as well if they're for > lumping together). Hokay: if the SAM rom (or rom image, or whatever) is handling modes 1-4, then we need only write code (for the ARM, possibly) to handle printing in modes 5 + So do we really need those UDGs anyway? ;) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:44:43 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:37:55 +0000 Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5DACF34E02@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 698 Lines: 16 > > so I suppose, rightfully, your discdrive belongs to me ;) > > No chance! :) Was this worth two identical replies? =:)p Anyway, after phoning 01792-700300 around a billion times, the sent it back. I'm not sure it was the same one. It had the *black* drive flap like mine had, sure, but it works less often. Intermittently, if you like. Anyone receive a tip-top drive with a black flap and button, at around the same time? ;) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:49:42 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:26:06 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Being Elitist...again Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <1A4A97698@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1801 Lines: 40 Hello, Bob wrote... > The fact that you > get the FULL packaging is also important (and Revelation could not have got > permission if they had not agreed to use the packaging). Personally, I hate packaging for games. Whilst I don't agree that they chould be provided in small plastic bags with a badly photocopied sheet of instructions, I also don't agree with huge big boxes (a la Lemmings) and full colour manuals when they are uneccessary. Fair enough, when we get SAMSon, we'll have to use nice packaging because software will be selling (hopefully) in the shops, but for mail-order stuff (ie. all the SAM software) it's not really essential is it? I mean, I put all my disks in my disk box and leavre the packaging to get trampled on. However, I can understand that Elite *did* need the manual. > I must admit that I cannot understand why anyone wants to knock it. Ok, if > you already have the Sprectrum Elite, and you have the ability to transfer it > to SAM disc, then you would not be interested, but don't knock it just > because you don't want it. But what we're saying is that we WANT Elite on the SAM, but in SAM format with SAM bits and bobs. Now, as Nev has said, Braben wouldn't allow this, so really the argument stops here. However, this doesn't mean we should support the current SAM version just because it is the only one we're likely to get. Selling a Spectrum game at MORE than Spectrum full price is nothing short of criminal and (although I have not read any reviews of the game yet) I think the SAM public should be allowed to know what they are paying for. Anybody can pick Elit up at a carboot sale with packaging intact and snap it over to the SAM for about 75pence. > Bob. > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 14:49:42 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:27:52 GMT+0 Subject: Re: NSSS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <1A56503A9@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 165 Lines: 10 Hello, > Bob. > > Bob. > I really don't think swimming near your PC is good idea, Bob! ;-) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:14:14 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:42:41 GMT+0 Subject: Re: WHO IS GOING TO DO WHAT? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <1F2913B5A@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 640 Lines: 22 > Ok folks, > [snipped bit about kicking the SAMSon project off] Well, I'm crap at coding, I'm a non-starter when it comes to hardware design but if you've got anything else that you might like me to do then I'd be mroe than happy to help (writing manuals, alpha-testing, making the tea etc.) > Time to get the show on the road. Doesn't that one line make you all feel really inspired? Like when the A-Team used to 'build' something every episode and Hannibal would start it all off with a witty one-liner. Oh, reality used to be a friend of mine. > Bob. > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:14:14 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Being Elitist...again To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:04:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1A4A97698@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Nov 18, 96 02:26:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 503 Lines: 12 > Personally, I hate packaging for games. Whilst I don't agree that > they chould be provided in small plastic bags with a badly > photocopied sheet of instructions, I also don't agree with huge big > boxes (a la Lemmings) and full colour manuals when they are > The main reason for big boxes with handbooks, and posters (as they used to put in some times) was so that people thought they were missing something if they got a pirated copy which was just a disc with a handwritten label.... -ANdy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:14:15 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:51:24 +0000 Subject: SAMSON: ARM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5DE65B4DD0@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 687 Lines: 12 Oh! I see what you mean! Like, if you have something _really_ graphics intensive, the Z380 could stick its oar in to help out the ARM... interesting idea, sounds fine, but how to do it... without slowing down either too much... (ie, the ARM waiting around for the Z380 to finish its 'help' ... the Z380 hanging around saying, I'm trying to help here but the ARM's just hogging the graphics memory...) tricky. Any ideas anyone? +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:19:48 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:04:44 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT&CP/M - Reply - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 611 Lines: 16 > > Spot on. Microsoft thieved most of CP/M to make QDOS and then MSDOS which was > > bundled out as something to run MS Basic on. > > Um - I think you'll find Microsoft actually /bought/ QDos, rather than wrote it. Whoops, I'm so used to MS stealing other people's OS's (CP/M > DOS, Mac GUI > Windows, VMS > NT...) that I missed that one. :)) QDOS was a kludge (Quick-and-Dirty Operating System for those who don't know)based on CP/M and MS revamped it into DOS. Just think, CP/M could be ruling the world if Gazza Kildall (sp?) hadn't wanted a lawyer to check out MS's non-disclosure agreement... Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:21:19 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:09:08 +0000 Subject: Re: Software packaging... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5E322A73F3@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1873 Lines: 34 > Personally, I hate packaging for games. Too true. Anyone get KLAX on the sam? Massive transparent plastic box, very sexy n'all, but notreally necessary when you consider inside was just one disk and a flappy couple of pieces of paper telling you how to load. I expect it only cost as much as it did for this reason... (13 quid, at least, that's how much I paid for it... ) I remember when I thought the black plastic boxes for speccy games (eg, brian bloodaxe, fairlight, geoff capes, bored of the rings... you know) was extravagant (even though the chunky 'two-cassette sized' transparent cases usually only held one cassette), but then you started to get the cardboard boxes, a mini version of what the big-league computers were getting, for games like Puzznic and Centipod. The thing here is - Centipod cost only two quid fifty, and while the quality of the game was questionable, it was not much worse than certain other games at the same time, for the same cost, in less attractive packaging. Puzznic, of course, apart from being a top game, cost 9 quid or something (I of course got it for under a fiver at an All Formats) A necessary balance between extravagant, stupid cost and good packaging needs to be reached... taking into account manuals, etc. The current situation with PC cd-based games makes me laugh. All the cardboard boxes are huge. I bought Z, bundled with 5 bitmap-bros games. Inside was one cd and a smallish booklet. If it looks cute, it stands out. Why, for SAMSON, we could have small, but interestingly shaped, cardboard boxes for software. (Unh... maybe...) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:35:22 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL. Harding) Message-Id: <199611181456.OAA25756@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:56:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <5D3E012878@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 18, 96 02:12:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1632 Lines: 36 > > However, if you want the ARM to print stuff for you then it will need a > > copy of the font. How will this be arranged? Will you be able to select > > from several different fonts? > > .. it's just that it seemed to make sense to get the ARM to do the > printing. More efficient that way, (possibly), especially considering > the suggestion (by, who, again?) that the ARM could do loads of other > dedicated acceleration tasks (window hotspot detection, graphic > scaling, etc) Me. *smug grin* I was also the one who kept jibbereing on about parallel/co. processing, and got moaned at. > If the ARM is going to be used only for screen modes 5 and onwards, > what's wrong with storing the font for these modes in a part of the > memory on the graphic board? If the problem is a mismatch between the > fonts in modes1-4 and the fonts in modes 5+, tough, because I can't > forsee any application wanting to use a mode <=4 together with a mode > >=5. And even if it did (for example, to allow the application to > run on an unexpanded SAM (ie, one without the ARM processing graphics > modes) as well as an expanded one) then there's nothing wrong with it > being supplied with two font images - one for the SAM rom to deal with > and one for the ARM to deal with. Perfect. Expecially considering that the GUI user will want to chose/re-define their own font anyway, there is no need to bugger about with the CLI level at all. I surpose that we are now intend to have 2 different banks of flash memory, 1 for the Z380 and 1 to live on 'the card' (It is not fair to just refer to it as a graphics card.). Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:36:12 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:08:53 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: WHO IS GOING TO DO WHAT? - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 170 Lines: 8 > Oh, reality used to be a friend of mine. Anyone else caught quoting crap pop lyrics will be instantly un-subscribed by the new anti_PM_Dawn_daemon at NVG. :)) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:47:14 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:38:41 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Games Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <2AD6B4497@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 627 Lines: 18 On 15th November A.S. Collier wrote... > Andrew > > (Who's bought *nearly* every Sam game ever, and reviewed a good proportion > of them in 'Second Opinion' - the old-games review column, only in Zodiac > Magazine) > Been there, done that. SAM2SAM was the first magazine to review old SAM games, and in our time we covered nearly every single one of them. So we wern't **quite** as shit as Colin Anderton suggested in his reviews for FRED :-) Johnna (who is not bitter in any way that his contributions to the SAM world got overlooked...honest :)) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 15:47:14 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:46:45 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <5ED2292A69@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 823 Lines: 14 > I surpose that we are now intend to have 2 different banks of flash > memory, 1 for the Z380 and 1 to live on 'the card' (It is not fair to > just refer to it as a graphics card.). Ooh, heck, erm, what's the flash memory on the Z380 to be used for? In fact (and don't laff) what's flash memory anyway? Is it just a re-writable store for operating systems,etc? So, the flash memory on the Z380 would be for system settings, etc, and maybe the font, and the 'card' flash memory would be for _it's_ font and, erm, other stuff. In fact, could ya help me out here? +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:01:49 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:49:27 GMT+0 Subject: Re: So True, funny how it seems... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <2DE1D5E5C@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 325 Lines: 13 > > Oh, reality used to be a friend of mine. > > Anyone else caught quoting crap pop lyrics will be instantly un-subscribed by the > new anti_PM_Dawn_daemon at NVG. :)) > > Dan. > Dan, surely you wouldn't want me to be Set Adrift On Memory Bliss? :) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:14:41 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:33:28 GMT+0 Subject: Re: ARMs Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <3348112C2@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 172 Lines: 7 Nice to see that SAMSon will be getting an ARM. It will look lovely alongside SAM's blue FEET. :-) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:15:09 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:59:36 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Hello (again...!) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <32D6C00EE@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 335 Lines: 11 Hi Kev, Blimey, it's been ages since I've heard from you (my fault really, I got slack at writing letters and as this Email thingy is soooo easy, people tend to here a lot more from me. Gone are the days of postal intercourse!) - just thought I'd say Hello. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:37:39 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:31:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: ARMs In-Reply-To: <3348112C2@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 604 Lines: 14 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Johnna Teare wrote: > Nice to see that SAMSon will be getting an ARM. It will look lovely > alongside SAM's blue FEET. Hey! Stop being racist and leaving out my black-footed SAM!!!! :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:37:55 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:35:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. In-Reply-To: <5ED2292A69@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1069 Lines: 23 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > > I surpose that we are now intend to have 2 different banks of flash > > memory, 1 for the Z380 and 1 to live on 'the card' (It is not fair to > > just refer to it as a graphics card.). > > Ooh, heck, erm, what's the flash memory on the Z380 to be used for? > In fact (and don't laff) what's flash memory anyway? Is it just Flash menory aka Flash EPROMS are just a faster versionb of EPROMS that are pretty fast and doesn't need UV light to erase (just a single "command" on the Address pins could wipe or program any part of the chip). The trouble is, Flash EPROMS are HUGE - The smallest ones I've found are 128K in size... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:38:53 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:16:19 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Being Elitist... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <387E040A9@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 314 Lines: 10 [Elite] >Has anyone on this list bought it? >Why have you others not bought it? I've not bought it because I've got a couple of versions of it in SAMTape format. Now if the SAM verision was machine-specific, I would definetly reconsider... Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:42:48 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:37:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SNA-RUNner: IFF2 - Reply In-Reply-To: <5DACF34E02@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1102 Lines: 26 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > > > so I suppose, rightfully, your discdrive belongs to me ;) > > > > No chance! :) > > Was this worth two identical replies? =:)p Two? I thought I only sent one... (I only recieved one, I think, anyway!) > Anyway, after phoning 01792-700300 around a billion times, the sent > it back. I'm not sure it was the same one. It had the *black* drive > flap like mine had, sure, but it works less often. Intermittently, if > you like. Anyone receive a tip-top drive with a black flap and > button, at around the same time? ;) Ah.. That wasn't the one I got.. It had the normal flap and the red light keeps itself on when I switch the machine on or reset it... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:51:39 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:10:57 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Games Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <3872B77C8@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 581 Lines: 14 Hello, > often, quite the opposite in fact. Look at Throu' the Wall, and compare it Thru' the Wall. Wow! This HAS to be our first conversion to SAMSon. Without a doubt. The sheer delight one had when the ball landed on top of the wall and ate away at the bricks as one made a cup of tea. Fantastic. I got this (on the Horizons tape), Ghost Town (a terrible adventure game by Virgin), Aracadia (an Imagine version of Galaxians) with my Speccy and Thru The Wall was the one I loaded up first EVERY TIME. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:51:49 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:33:22 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611181533.PAA01569@rivalin.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS - Screen Colours. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: NrP+lehFLORa1fi1Gm/pOA== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 591 Lines: 19 > >> You might have seen one that attempts to do it, but since it's impossible on > >> an ordinary Sam it didn't work too well. :-) > > > >Eh? > >Well I saw one too. Came on Crash I believe, along with some other > >colors-muff. Possibly by Simon someone (wasn't you was it cookie?) > > Nah, Simon Goodwin :) And it was on Sinclair User. > > The principal behind the way it all worked is fine (well for the colours), > although it's more correctly called temporal aliasing. No, it's NOT called temporal aliasing. That means something **slightly** different. Trust me.... ;) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:53:15 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: z80 interrupts To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:47:11 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 18, 96 04:37:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 406 Lines: 13 Suppose my z80 is running quite happily and then it gets an INT interrupt - then my isr services the interrupt. Then, whilst still servicing the interrupt I get an NMI - does the NMI get serviced straight away, or does it have to wait until the INT is finished with? (I know that if an NMI occurs during the servicing of an NMI then it has to wait, but what about this case?) Thanks for any help, Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:54:27 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:45:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT&CP/M - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1189 Lines: 24 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Dan Doore wrote: > > I thought FATs were invented for CP/M and Microsoft nicked the idea.. > > Spot on. Microsoft thieved most of CP/M to make QDOS and then MSDOS which was > bundled out as something to run MS Basic on. I've got a copy of Microsoft BASIC on CP/M.. (I think it was actually by MS and not a clone).. And it's hilariously crap! :) When ever someone tells my how "wonderful" Win95/NT/DOS is, I just have this vision BASIC in my head! :) And if for some strange reason I actually think Win95 is good, I cure myself by loading up the said BASIC and laff! If no-one believes that MS stole CP/M and then beat Digital Research to supply the first IBMs with DOS (why would anyone not believe MS stole anything?), just look at how MS-DOS makes system calls..... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:54:31 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:41:05 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Hello (again...!) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <3C8BC6C15@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 171 Lines: 7 > Hi Kev, Erm, I meant to send that personal Email - good job I didn't start the bitching eh?! :) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "They call me Mad The Swine" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 16:54:31 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961118164811.008ca0a0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:48:11 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 620 Lines: 19 At 12:55 PM 11/18/96 +0000, you wrote: >So the Z380 can be doing something more usefull. >I don't think a second back end for the C compiler to compile graphics >card code is a good idea. All of the code for the graphics card will need >to be superfast by definition. Ah, but C Compilers for ARM chips tend to give code which is more optimised than is possible by hand-optimisation. No joke. >Again, I would much prefer it if the Z380 had enough access to the cards >graphic memory to help out in a graphics intensive game. Is this possible / >practical? It's possible, but maybe not practical... We'll see. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 17:48:28 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL. Harding) Message-Id: <199611181652.QAA15330@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS what is flash? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:52:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2AD6B4497@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Nov 18, 96 02:38:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4090 Lines: 89 If you have been paying attention to this list and understand more than I do (which is actualy quite likely) stop reading this message now as it covers old ground. > > > I surpose that we are now intend to have 2 different banks of flash > > memory, 1 for the Z380 and 1 to live on 'the card' (It is not fair to > > just refer to it as a graphics card.). > > Ooh, heck, erm, what's the flash memory on the Z380 to be used for? I beleve we intend to put the entire operating system of the new machine on it. Just as SAM had SamBasic on a ROM. > In fact (and don't laff) what's flash memory anyway? Is it just > a re-writable store for operating systems,etc? Yup. operating systems in our case, but it could be used by anyone to store anything. It is 'turn-the-power-off-for-years' proof so is more like ROM than RAM, yet can be written to. I proposed a harware switch to stop it being buggered by nasty virius when you don't want it written to. > So, the flash memory > on the Z380 would be for system settings, etc, and maybe the font, The system settings yes. The font probably not as we are moving towards putting it on the ARMs flash (assuming we give the ARM its own flash). > and the 'card' flash memory would be for _it's_ font and, erm, other > stuff. In fact, could ya help me out here? The current notion is to put all of the graphics routines (e.g. open a window, print a 'H') on the card as it is the one that will be running them! Most of us also think putting other stuff such as most of the mouse driver there is a good idea too -That way the Z380 (i.e. main, 'non-graphics card' bit of the new machine) doesn't even need to know where the windows are on the screen, what resolution they are in or even how big they are! (all of this is only true for the GUI of course, your own games etc. need not go by any of the rules!) I am starting to wonder now as to whether we should put the whole of the SamBasic based CLI (command Line Interface) on the Z380's flash. That way we can really go to town and improve it (maybe include all of the masterbasic stuff too). You may not have been told that we need to improve SAMbasic's DOS beyond recognition to make it more consistant and support alien disk formats as easily as its own. Any old SAM emulation will probably be done from the CLI. Howzabout a single basic statement to kill all of the new features and return to the old SAMbasic on the old ROM run by the old Z80. (the new version of the CLI would be best run on the new Z380). (DRAT: we are back to the old question of what the Z80 can do in its little world when the new machine is up around it) > +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ > | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | > | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | > +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ > The advantages of using Flash are all faily simple. We get an easily upgradable operating system. Hopefully with built in applications such as a decent C compiler, A standard text editor, Internet and comms stuff, a hardware I/O port manipulator thingy and, who knows, maybe even a 3D modeler -to increase sales in shools (honest!) And best of all be don't have to wait an age for the operating system to be loaded from the hardrive as all other machines of the same class do. We have opted for flash instead of battery backup memory for a number or reasons, yet it can be considered to be the same thing. The GUI will live on top of the CLI. Most games will actually be loaded from the CLI level, but all of these new games will appear to be selectable from the GUI to the user (who need not touch the CLI). When selected, the machine can drop out of the GUI and load said game/demo/whatever from the CLI without the user knowing it. PC owners are forced to use DOS (their CLI) to load decent games, unless they own 1000000MHz pentiums with win95. My only fear is that I seem to remember that flash takes longer to read than normal memory, isn't it 140u as opposed to 60-80? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 17:49:05 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:48:43 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <60DB4A1B25@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2032 Lines: 39 > > > I surpose that we are now intend to have 2 different banks of flash > > > memory, 1 for the Z380 and 1 to live on 'the card' (It is not fair to > > > just refer to it as a graphics card.). > > > > Ooh, heck, erm, what's the flash memory on the Z380 to be used for? > > In fact (and don't laff) what's flash memory anyway? Is it just > > Flash menory aka Flash EPROMS are just a faster versionb of EPROMS that are > pretty fast and doesn't need UV light to erase (just a single "command" on the > Address pins could wipe or program any part of the chip). > > The trouble is, Flash EPROMS are HUGE - The smallest ones I've found are 128K > in size... Hokay then, so if we want to store the font and system stuff why would we use EPROMS? I was rather thinking of using a seperated 'system' RAM thingy to store the font on for the ARM, that you could effectively write to (many times) without the need for reading (which, I suppose, could be possible, just not useful) so the ARM then had access to it. It's just that, if we didn't do it this way, we'd end up storing the font (for use by the ARM) in either the main RAM banks (messy for the ARM to get hold of) or in the actual video RAM (wasteful, meaning the full 1MEG or whatever of video RAM would / could never be used for *just* a screenful of picture - there'd either be more memory than the largest screenmode (wasteful, probably, as it'd possibly need to be installed in banks of 1meg) or you'd get font data splattered at the top of the screen... either that or make the screen modes fit in just under 1meg... etc...) Anyone else reckon the 'card' should have it's own 'system' RAM, effectively, or should the font data be stored as part of the video data (and just not displayed) ? davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From imc Mon Nov 18 17:50:00 1996 Subject: Re: Samson Graphic extras To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:50:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611150742.AA24272@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Nov 15, 96 08:42:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 768 Lines: 15 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:42:26 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > > It is true that when you scroll leftwards it will display the left-hand > > column on the right. However, you had to redraw the right-hand column at > > some point so why not do it at that instant? > It gives you a bit more slack when it comes to the actual update of the > screen. But a wrap-around on one screen might be a food solution as any. > Thought, a double screen area that does not need update, eg. a > flipper game, would have an edge. :) How about a graphics card that > had a notion of the difference between a virtual display and a screen. :) Well I guess you could flip the display into a mode where it had a virtual screen of 2x2 physical screens and wrapped around at the edges. imc From imc Mon Nov 18 17:51:39 1996 Subject: Re: New Screen Modes. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:51:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961115075404.00963bcc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 15, 96 07:54:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 498 Lines: 13 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:54:04 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > Yep, it can be used as a processor :) It's designed as such, remember? > Though I'm planning a series of library routines to use with it -- stuff > like sorting, painting graphics primitives, 3D calculation, mathematical > calculation... So it will have the commands "plot", "draw", "fill", "sprite" and "just run the following program, OK?" :-) So why bother with the Z380? :-) imc (what happens if the graphics processor crashes?...) From imc Mon Nov 18 17:56:05 1996 Subject: Re: Butterfly Print revisited To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:56:05 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961115080114.0094dea0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 15, 96 08:01:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1323 Lines: 43 On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:01:14 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > So that becomes... > > LD A,(DE) > AND B > XOR C > LD (HL),A > INC E > INC L Indeed. > (RE: your next paragraph)... so the routine I had becomes: > >> ; LD D,&F0 > > > >> ; EXX > >> LD A,(DE) ; LD A,B > >> AND B ; AND (HL) > >> XOR C > >> INC E > >> ; EXX > >> XOR (HL) > >> AND &F0 > >> XOR (HL) > >> LD (HL),A > Hmmm... lesseee... the EXX and EXX get removed, in place of an AND &F0 > So that's a 4 and a 4 replaced by an ~8 (not sure of the timings) You've removed an AND D also, remember. So on an unfettered Z80 you have removed 12 and replaced them with 7. In display memory you have removed 3 Z-states and replaced them with 2 (a Z-state is 4 T-states not on the screen or 8 on the screen). > >(Now, how do you print underlined characters? :-) ) > Ummm... Not sure... I left them out of the print routine, and it'd also > wreck the design of the rest of the system, so I think I'll leave them out. Well I just put a couple of "OR XH" instructions in appropriate places. imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:02:20 1996 Subject: Re: SOS what is flash? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:02:20 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611181652.QAA15330@irix.bris.ac.uk> from "SL. Harding" at Nov 18, 96 04:52:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 184 Lines: 6 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:52:40 +0000 (GMT), SL. Harding said: > PC owners are forced to use DOS (their CLI) to load decent games Don't they just stick the disk in and turn it on? imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:03:07 1996 Subject: Re: z80 interrupts To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:03:07 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Nov 18, 96 04:47:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 438 Lines: 17 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:47:11 +0000 (GMT), Andrew M Gale said: > Suppose my z80 is running quite happily and then > it gets an INT interrupt - then my isr services the > interrupt. Then, whilst still servicing the interrupt > I get an NMI - does the NMI get serviced straight > away Yes. > (I know that if an NMI occurs during > the servicing of an NMI then it has to wait No it doesn't. > ) imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:03:55 1996 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:03:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <5ED2292A69@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 18, 96 03:46:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 238 Lines: 7 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:46:45 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > and the 'card' flash memory would be for _it's_ font and, erm, other > stuff. In fact, could ya help me out here? Why have you underlined your spelling mistake like that?... imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:04:45 1996 Subject: Re: Games To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:04:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3872B77C8@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Nov 18, 96 02:10:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 112 Lines: 6 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:10:57 GMT+0, Johnna Teare said: > Thru' the Wall. Wow! Isn't it "Thro' the wall"? imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:07:00 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:07:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <5D1FF6657B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 18, 96 02:04:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 796 Lines: 29 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:04:59 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > What does the copyright symbol look like on your Sam? > Who cares? I NEVER use it in mode 3. ;) > I guess it **MUST** be something like this: > (I know it's not round like the speccy one) > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | |X|X|X|X| | | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |X| | | | |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |X| |X|X| |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |X| |X| | |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |X| |X|X| |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > |X| | | | |X| | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | |X|X|X|X| | | | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Well, I did some research on this so I'll be embarassed if I turn out to be wrong, but I believe on my machine it has one blank column on each side, hence my belief that in mode 3 it prints the middle 6 rather than the left-hand 6 columns. imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:08:48 1996 Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT&CP/M To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:08:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 18, 96 01:57:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 336 Lines: 8 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:57:48 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > I thought FATs were invented for CP/M and Microsoft nicked the idea.. I don't know about that, but CP/M disks are in a completely different format from that of MSDOS disks. It's a more sensible format for small files, too, but not so good for files over 16K. :-) imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:27:55 1996 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:27:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611181255.MAA06148@irix.bris.ac.uk> from "SL. Harding" at Nov 18, 96 12:55:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2095 Lines: 42 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:55:16 +0000 (GMT), SL. Harding said: > > > >a) The proposed web server will need to do things like display GIFs and > > > >whatever else. Can the graphics card do that unaided? > > Why would the graphics card need to do that unaided? > So the Z380 can be doing something more usefull. Like what? If you are trying to display GIFs there probably isn't a whole lot of "more useful" stuff going on. In fact I can only think of three reasons to display GIFs. They are (1) web browser, (2) GIF viewer, and (3) miscellaneous image manipulation utility. Now it's entirely possible that the web browser will have to do tricky stuff that the graphics processor can't do, such as re-dithering the images so that there can be several on the screen without running out of colours, and resizing images. The GIF viewer will be fairly straightforward, but might have to cope with images larger than the screen. The miscellaneous utility will have to cope with lots of image formats and do processing that it's unreasonable to expect the graphics processor to do (because you only ever want to do them when you're using this particular utility). So I don't see any harm in making those applications decode the GIFs themselves. After all, it's a pretty simple process (JPG files are a different kettle of fish entirely). > I don't think a second back end for the C compiler to compile graphics > card code is a good idea. All of the code for the graphics card will need > to be superfast by definition. Which is why you _do_ want the code to be produced by a decent optimising compiler. :-) > There is no real need to provide much in the way of scaling sprite > procedures on the cards flash as sprites are only realy going to be used > from level 1 where there is no need to worry about the scalling and > re-positioning a decent GUI requires. At level 1 the writer of the game will > want to write his own dedicated routine anyway. What about all this "Let it be independent of which graphics mode we are in so people can use it on their TVs" lark all of a sudden? imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:30:55 1996 Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:30:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Doore" at Nov 18, 96 12:28:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 301 Lines: 9 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:28:35 +0000, Dan Doore said: > I seem to remember that the last two bytes in a sector hold the > track/sector of the next sector to read - or have I got the wrong > end of the stick? Yes, OK, the whole disk (apart from the directory) is one huge file allocation table... imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:36:29 1996 Subject: Re: GCC... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:36:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611181155.MAA23963@dxmint.cern.ch> from "Allan Skillman" at Nov 18, 96 12:55:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1526 Lines: 37 On Mon, 18 Nov 96 12:55:14 MET, Allan Skillman said: > 1) As far as I know all the gcc backends use use two features of CPUs > which do not exist on the Z80, namely frame pointer manipulation > and stack frames. The former refers to the ability to address the stack > through an indexed addressing mode, ie in x86 > MOV AX,[BP+DI] - loads AX with the contents of the offset BP+DI > in the stack segment. > This allows the compiler to keep track of the position in the C > code - required for debuggers. Stack frames are blocks of memory > in the stack used to pass varaibles to functions. Basically the CPU > can automatically allocate memory and move the stack pointer with > a single instruction - ENTER and LEAVE on x86. As far as I know, the plain 8086 doesn't have these, though I'm not quite sure what it does. Probably something of the form LD HL, -36 ADD HL,SP LD SP,HL. Also, the BP is set to SP at the start of each routine. I'm not sure what you think is the difference between BP on the 8086 and IX on the Z80. Couldn't IX be used? In fact, if you used IX instead of HL in the above snippet you'd be set. > 2) gcc works on a FLAT memory model, unlike REAL mode PC DOS compilers > it has no concept of near and far. For a z80 (rather than a z380) C > compiler a segmentated approach would be essential. Yep, although you could ignore it and specify that it doesn't work if the total size of the program exceeds 64K (or 32K if you are feeling mean). :-) imc From imc Mon Nov 18 18:37:42 1996 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:37:42 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1827.199611171504@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Nov 17, 96 03:04:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 303 Lines: 8 On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:04:38 +0000 (GMT), Mr P R Walker said: > Okay, I was hoping this would die out, but it hasn't - so what exactly > is this butterfly print? A way of printing a mode 3 character which does it in a funny order using a pre-calculated expansion of the font in order to be fast. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 19:08:14 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:56:06 +0000 Subject: Re: ARMs Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <60FA9E6B9C@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 496 Lines: 9 > Hey! Stop being racist and leaving out my black-footed SAM!!!! :) My sam's got black feet, to match the black discdrive flap and button. But then again, I painted them. Properly, mind. But the paint's starting to scratch off.. boo... +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 19:08:37 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:27:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@mersenne.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: z80 interrupts In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 980 Lines: 21 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > Suppose my z80 is running quite happily and then > it gets an INT interrupt - then my isr services the > interrupt. Then, whilst still servicing the interrupt > I get an NMI - does the NMI get serviced straight > away, or does it have to wait until the INT is > finished with? (I know that if an NMI occurs during > the servicing of an NMI then it has to wait, but > what about this case?) Yes. Your INT interupt will get interupted by an NMI and the NMI *will* be serviced straight away - No waiting around for the INT to be finished... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 19:08:58 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:56:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT In-Reply-To: <9611181209.AA00858@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 894 Lines: 23 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > > The fact that the file's S.A.M. (stored in the directory) is only a > > map of that file does not make it any less a FAT that the type of FAT used by > > MS-DOS. > Besides, whatever you think (or know) the word FAT is supposed to mean, the > fact is that it has now been associated with PC disks for so long that it > would be silly to try and attach that word to anything else. Urm correct me if I am wrong but... PC = Personal Computer. Isn't the Sam a Personal Computer, I wouldn't exactly call it a mainframe or anything. Or did you just mean an IBM PC compatible? ;) Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 19:09:14 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:01:13 +0000 Subject: Re:SOS what is flash? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <610FFB3DA6@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 740 Lines: 14 > Yup. operating systems in our case, but it could be used by anyone to > store anything. It is 'turn-the-power-off-for-years' proof so is more like > ROM than RAM, yet can be written to. > I proposed a harware switch to stop it being buggered by nasty virius when > you don't want it written to. Yes, that's what I thought... So who said something about storing the font on the Z380's flash? (actually, maybe it was me) I should stop being so efficient in deleting these emails... +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 19:09:32 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:29:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@mersenne.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re:SOS what is flash? In-Reply-To: <199611181652.QAA15330@irix.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 799 Lines: 17 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, SL. Harding wrote: > My only fear is that I seem to remember that flash takes longer to read > than normal memory, isn't it 140u as opposed to 60-80? I have to check my AMD Flash EPROM databook, but yes, I do believe it IS slower (around 140u). But, standard EPROMS aren't much (if any) faster.. Didn't someone suggest copying all of the EPROM into "ShadowRAM" at startup, anyway? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 20:12:10 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:09:10 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS parallel - textmode Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <62320C2027@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1223 Lines: 22 > Well, I did some research on this so I'll be embarassed if I turn out > to be wrong, but I believe on my machine it has one blank column on each > side, hence my belief that in mode 3 it prints the middle 6 rather than > the left-hand 6 columns. Um ok, you probably are 100% correct. But (perhaps?) what I was suggesting was that, if we tried to reuse the butterfly code (or however this discussion started in the first place) with a _single_ font file, we could do this by using fonts with two blank r.h.s columns, rather than one either side. Then I mentioned that the block UDGs wouldn't work in this way, but hey! who needs em anyway! (since this 'single' font file is going to be used on the 'card anyway, => the ARM will be processing it iff the screen mode is a new one, => it's something better than modes 1-4. The SAM rom would be doing its own fonts in its orginal way as before the 'card, so, if you need blocks, use screen modes 1-4) +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 20:12:11 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:04:07 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <621CC87D75@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1622 Lines: 31 > In fact I can only think of three reasons to display GIFs. They are (1) web > browser, (2) GIF viewer, and (3) miscellaneous image manipulation utility. > Now it's ... [snip!] I have to admit, he has a point... Whereas simple bitmaps, is another thing entirely. Sprites, basically. So if you want a GIF to be displayed, get the Z380 to decode it and get the 'card to squirt out the resulting bitmap to the video. But is this any more efficient than, say, getting the Z380 to decode it directly to the video hardware (assuming, for the sake of argument, that it could, and at the same speed as the ARM could) ? Maybe this is a case for letting the Z380 have access to the video ram on the 'card... > What about all this "Let it be independent of which graphics mode we are in > so people can use it on their TVs" lark all of a sudden? Um, can't you resolve that one simply by having both a TV and a monitor output driven at the same time, and hope for nicely written software that, if it doesn't have a 'change screen mode' option, at least doesn't run TOO-HI-RES for TV users... The only thing I can think of that wouldn't have a nice 'change screen mode' option, in fact, is games... and for that extra resolution in games, you tend to get quality of output instead of smaller fonts... so they'd still be just as usable on a TV as on a monitor. +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 20:12:11 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:11:00 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS what is flash? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <6239E922FA@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 455 Lines: 10 > > PC owners are forced to use DOS (their CLI) to load decent games > > Don't they just stick the disk in and turn it on? How many DOS games come with their own boot sectors these days? :) davee +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 20:12:11 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:12:39 +0000 Subject: Re: Butterfly Print revisited Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <6240F77A4D@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 364 Lines: 8 > Well I just put a couple of "OR XH" instructions in appropriate places. OR XH? That's a new one on me. +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 20:12:12 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:10:07 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <6236510F70@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 346 Lines: 7 > Why have you underlined your spelling mistake like that?... I thought it would be fun +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 20:12:12 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:16:16 +0000 Subject: Re: Samson Graphic extras Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <6250901D98@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 843 Lines: 17 > Well I guess you could flip the display into a mode where it had a virtual > screen of 2x2 physical screens and wrapped around at the edges. screen width x (n x screenheight) screens are straightforward enough, by changing the pointer to the start of the screen in video ram. A possible option is to have the (n x screenwidth) x screenheight screen stored in exactly the same way, but with coordinates reversed ie, address 0 is top left, address 1 is top left, DOWN 1 ROW, etc. Of course, 2x2, etc, would require different hardware... and would be a nice flexibilty to own... +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ | doubleback : a load of cunk | torus?- 1997? it'll | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | never get finished | +---------------------------------------+---------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 20:42:59 1996 Message-Id: <199611182011.UAA23848@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Like a virgin???????????????????? Date: 18 Nov 1996 19:37:09 X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1190 Lines: 35 In a message of 18 Nov 96 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi BrenchleyR@aol.com, >> You hostile little sh!t. >> Why don't you tell us who you are, or shut the f*ck up. Bac> Now I don't think that type of reply was called for, well not really It all depends on who we think Samsboss is really, doesn't it. Everyone else in here puts their real name, or a good indication of who they are in their messages. This type of behaviour is banned in fidonet and other networks. I know that there are no such rules in here, but I can see no reason why I should't send abusive messages to a nameless person whenever I feel like it. Since we don't know who we are addressing, I think it's a good idea to either ignore /it/, or abuse it until /it/ tells us who /it/ is. Bac> anyway. I do think he made a valid point that Allan did promote the Bac> first show quite well, there was about two months advanced notice. I wasn't disputing that point at all. I was mainly concerned that he was effectively being nasty to a new member of the list. What makes it worse is that /it/ hides behind a mask while /it/ goes about it. Do you know who /it/ is Bob? Bye, _ |_)ave From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:10:41 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:05:09 GMT Message-Id: <199611182105.VAA28632@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Being Elitist... From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 361 Lines: 12 >[Elite] >>Has anyone on this list bought it? Yes, I did, from the Gloucester show. Jenny said it had been selling quite well. Saw at least 3 others walking around with copies. Not a bad game, remember now seeing it on a Commy64 some years back and this version is better. Will let you know when I become ELITE. -- Samsboss. (Still a long way to go) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:10:42 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:05:01 GMT Message-Id: <199611182105.VAA28621@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 485 Lines: 16 On Nov 18, 1996 12:03:50, 'Stephen Harding ' wrote: >We must remember that at level 1 (M_Code launched from the CLI at level 2) >the programmer has as got to have full access to all of the hardware. This >implies that games launced from here must be able to stick their own >graphics sub-routines on the graphics card, this is dangerous for >upgradeability (yet necessary). > -- Why would it be necessary, its not on PC graphic cards. Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:10:50 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:05:12 GMT Message-Id: <199611182105.VAA28636@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: ARMs From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 393 Lines: 17 On Nov 18, 1996 15:33:28, 'Johnna Teare ' wrote: >Nice to see that SAMSon will be getting an ARM. It will look lovely >alongside SAM's blue FEET. > >:-) > >Johnna -- Question. If the real SAMSON is going into a PC style mini-tower case. Can we stick the blue (or black) feet on the sides just to remind us of our roots? Samsboss. (Talking of roots..) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:10:51 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:05:15 GMT Message-Id: <199611182105.VAA28640@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS: Sensible FAT&CP/M - Reply From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 310 Lines: 12 On Nov 18, 1996 16:45:06, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >And if for some strange reason I actually think Win95 is good, I cure myself >by >loading up the said BASIC and laff! -- I think we should make this treatment available on the NHS. Samsboss. (Now having to use '95 on a course) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:10:51 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:05:20 GMT Message-Id: <199611182105.VAA28645@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS what is flash? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 255 Lines: 12 On Nov 18, 1996 18:02:20, 'Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk' wrote: >> PC owners are forced to use DOS (their CLI) to load decent games > >Don't they just stick the disk in and turn it on? > >imc -- Yep, but there is a dos on the disc. Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:10:51 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:05:25 GMT Message-Id: <199611182105.VAA28651@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Like a virgin? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 265 Lines: 12 On Nov 17, 1996 14:56:05, 'davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore)' wrote: >You hostile little sh!t. > >Why don't you tell us who you are, or shut the f*ck up. -- Who got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning? Samsboss. (We are not amused) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:10:54 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:05:32 GMT Message-Id: <199611182105.VAA28675@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: NSSS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 879 Lines: 24 On Nov 17, 1996 17:48:07, '"A.S. Collier" ' wrote: >I didn't think promotion was too bad; everybody knew about it, but nobody >actually bothered to go. Putting it one month before Gloucester's was >probably the biggest mistake. > >Did _you_ go, Samsboss? > > >Andrew -- No, went to Paris that weekend. Yorkshire is a bit out of the way for that sort of thing. As the crow flies I'm nearer than to Gloucester, but Gloucester is motorway all the way, and if it was not for the jams at Brum I could do Gloucester in half the time it would take me to get to the NSSS. And as I said, Yorkshire in Feb is a little too cold for me. Now if someone would like to put on a show in the South of France.... Could do with renewing my tan - don't like sunbeds, bad for the face. Samsboss. (Thank you for your enquiry, please keep in contact. LOL.) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:11:08 1996 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:08:12 GMT Message-Id: <199611182108.VAA28850@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Like a virgin???????????????????? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 348 Lines: 17 On Nov 18, 1996 19:37:09, 'davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore)' wrote: >Do you know who /it/ is Bob? > >Bye, > >_ >|_)ave -- I know Mr Bob, but I doubt that he knows me... And there is NO excuse for bad mouthing someone, even if like A LOT of other people on the Internet I like to keep my real ID under my hat. Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Nov 18 21:38:19 1996 From: Lord Blackadder To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-7.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: Like a virgin? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:15:28 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <848348087.515571.0@orinocco.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 450 Lines: 20 > From: David Ledbury > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Subject: Like a virgin? > Date: 17 November 1996 01:58 > > > Anyone fancy a summary of SAMSON ideas for a virgin to the newsgroup? I would if I had the time to digest all of them! > David L. Nice to here from you again. -- Lord Blackadder, Entropy Technology. Blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk http://www.orinocco.demon.co.uk "Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 19 05:25:37 1996 Date: 18 Nov 1996 15:46:53 +0000 Message-Id: <961119050111@digibank.demon.co.uk> From: Stewart Skardon To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: [None] Organization: Digital Databank BBS X-Mailer: ArcadeLink - Email/News Gateway X-System: DigiLink Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 955 Lines: 22 This is sus! Hello everyone! Yep, I'm on the mailing list now. Anyway, the reason that I wrote is because I've just got the latest issue of FORMAT! Shock horror, and to make everyone else ask more questions, I read the following: '...the production of al WCC products will shift to Gloucestershire...' VERY convenient Bob! Why not just tell us all the truth that, you are in reality, West Coast Computers? We won't think any the less of you, infact I think everyone would appreciate it! We aren't fools ya know! Stewart Skardon, yes him of FRED fame! -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Digital Databank BBS: +44-1707-323531 (300-28.8k/V42/42b) 24 hours | | FidoNet: 2:257/501.0 Sysop: jstonier@digibank.demon.co.uk | | (Acorn Information at your Fingertips) | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 19 08:04:49 1996 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:06:16 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611190806.AA00203@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Unsub. and a quote X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 210 Lines: 7 > Might this not be a good time to set up a specific newsgroup for the SAMSON > project? Because it's just not that easy to set up a nesgroup. Besides, this does not belong to the news-system anyway. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 19 08:24:01 1996 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:13:05 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611190813.AA00527@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Games X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 662 Lines: 18 > In a message dated 15/11/96 14:22:31, you write: > > >Well... there are a lot of really playable old games. But if we get a > >direct port-over, that's exactly what people will see them as: old games. > >A hacked spectrum snapshot of Elite is exactly the point here. > > A) it was not a snapshot. > B) if the code alread exists - why not use it. Is it then legal? Have you asked David Braben or Ian Bell? > C) it would have been difficult to consider changing the game without 1) > needing to print new versions of the manuals and 2) slowing the game down 1) Not by adding, say music and resolution. 2) Not by moving it from mode 1 to mode 3/4. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 19 08:29:03 1996 Message-Id: <199611190826.JAA21044@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: ARMs and Feet Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:29:22 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1131 Lines: 36 > On Nov 18, 1996 15:33:28, 'Johnna Teare ' wrote: > > > >Nice to see that SAMSon will be getting an ARM. It will look lovely > >alongside SAM's blue FEET. > > > >:-) > > > >Johnna > -- > Question. If the real SAMSON is going into a PC style mini-tower case. Can > we stick the blue (or black) feet on the sides just to remind us of our > roots? > > > Samsboss. If the Samson is going to be marketed for first-time buyers, won't they be scared by yet another tower-thingie, and if its gonna be connected to a TV rather than a Monitor, where do they leave the Samson then? for most it would be nearest to their TV's, in the livingroom, so do they have room? (in may case I don't have the room). I still vote for the Computer in the Keyboard, makes it stand out from the rest, less space needed. The blue/black feets can stay forever, that is the Sam? Robert van der Veeke AKA RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Sam the Eagle: "You, sir, are a demented, sick, degenerate, barbaric, naughty... freako!" Alice Cooper: "Why, thank you." Sam the Eagle: "Freakos: one. Civilization: zero." From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 19 08:29:03 1996 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:30:19 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611190830.AA00740@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS my right ARM. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 419 Lines: 11 > >ooh, heck. I was under the impression (someone had said, I think) > >that the Z80 was going to be used for text and the ultra-lowest of > >the res screen modes. > > Main SAM to handle modes 1 to 4, exactly as is so we have 100% compat. > But, for higher screen modes I think the Z380 should drive a screen on the > graphics card with commands - not by memory access. Don't go in that trap - allow both. -Frode