From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 19:19:56 1996 From: JohnnaPig Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:11:19 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SOS text editor Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1917 Lines: 42 > In a message dated 26/11/96 14:56:25, you write: > > >No one is saying that we only need one. > >A good text editor and a cut down version of the wordpocessor with the > >machine and a fuller wordprocessor that must be brought. People who want > >a wordprocessor want to buy it. > > > > No, what we do is we write ONE program. > > But we make it so good that C programmers and the like will use it as a text > editor, while others can use it as a reasonable wordprocessor. But that's not what people will want, as the list has been saying. And, IMHO, a 'reasonable' word processor is not going to be good enough. If I shell out stlg400 on SAMSon, I'll want it to be able to do things that a cheap Macintosh Classic can do eg. wysiwyg Word Processors, office packages etc. Otherwise, i may aswell just buy a cheap Mac. Let's be realistic here - there is a fine line between a good programmers machine and a poor commercial machine and we have to find it - we must be able to sell the machine to two sets of people, otherwise we'll only end up with another cult computer. A 'proper' Word Processor is essential, as is a text editor for C etc. To combine them may well be possible, but unless it is done with absolute precsion, it will be to the detriment of one of the two pieces of software ultimately. We've got text processors - maybe they're not perfect, but with a little reworking I'm sure they could be. We haven't got a proper Word Processor with a decent spellchecker, Thesaurus, wysiwyg, variable fonts, bold, underline etc, margins and 'proper' TABs, headers and footers, print previews etc. SAMSon will need one of these regardless of whom its target audience is because word processiing is one of the most useful functions of a home computer. So why can we not have both? > Bob. > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 19:20:25 1996 From: JohnnaPig Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:14:33 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SRAM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 971 Lines: 23 > > I second TIFF, all those in favour please say so. > > Sorry - I vote for something more common, such as PNG - or if we > really must, GIF, but I think that doing a gif program without > Unisys' permission would be slightly dodgy. PNG is patent-free, and > also more efficient. > Did I miss something here? This argument started out as what format the schematics should be posted in didn't it? Now we're arguing about file formats for SAMSon and the current SAM. And notice I said arguing - because discussions manage to progress somewhere, whereas this has gone round in circles. Personally, I don't own a piece of PC software that would accept PNG so I woulg go for GIF or TIFF, or as first suggested, PS because, inspite of what people have been saying, it is easily read into most things and if not, then is possible to convert using Ghostscript. **phew** Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 20:31:41 1996 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:26:36 GMT Message-Id: <199611262026.UAA02859@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: item 1A - SRAM board From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Lines: 10 On Nov 26, 1996 12:55:41, 'Lee Willis ' wrote: >And the award for Most Patronising Mailer 1996 goes to ... > >Lee. -- Me? Win an award? Oh you are so kind. Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 20:31:43 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <9203.199611262029@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:28:57 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961126172814.008ec084@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 26, 96 05:28:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 402 Lines: 8 > >really must, GIF, but I think that doing a gif program without > >Unisys' permission would be slightly dodgy. PNG is patent-free, and > I thought we were still talking about printing out the schematics? Oops. Got side-tracked again. :) I take it they're up there now? How about something simple that almost all things can read and that compresses well for the next time, to save all this hassle. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 20:34:05 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <9705.199611262031@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:31:31 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611261652.AA03087@booth6.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 26, 96 04:52:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 668 Lines: 19 > study. And I don't think a format for which there are currently no viewers > is a good idea for that! If you're talking about Sam viewers, then that covers most formats, doesn't it? Anyway. > Also I don't think the Sam should have a "standard" image format. It should > be equally easy to use all kinds of images (by loading them into a spiffy > conversion utility like "xv"). Exactly. > raster graphics. So isn't it a bit odd for the PNG folks to have decided > on LZ77 to compress their raster graphics? Possibly, but from what I remember of the spec there were other tricks in there as well - and it does produce smaller files, which is the main thing. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 22:32:50 1996 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:30:46 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: re: sos hard drives To: sam users Message-Id: <199611261731_MC1-C62-ECCC@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 816 Lines: 23 >>> I never thought of this actually - hard drives wil have to be >>> standard really, won't they. Will this push the price over our stlg300 >>> or stlg400 limit? >> >>Not sure how expensive the rest will be, but the HD interface is about >>60UKP and the hard drive will be about the same, probably. The power supply >>will be in the PC-style case, so you don't need that, which would help. > >60UKP???? You have got to be joking! That's the price that the SD Software >one is going for. If you look at just the components of the interface you'll >be needing not much more than 10UKP! Okay, so you've then got some assembly >costs and a profit margin to put on top of that... > 10UKP??? Ok I'll have parts to build 50 at 10UKP each. Let me know when you have them and which planet they come from. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 22:32:57 1996 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:30:42 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@CompuServe.COM> Subject: sernible fat prejudiced view To: sam users Message-Id: <199611261730_MC1-C62-ECCA@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 345 Lines: 15 On Nov 25, 1996 21:35:33, 'Stefan Drissen ' wrote: >>I know it's a prejudiced view but I quite like the HDOS filing system. It's > >Is one of the additions an even unfriendlier user interface? ;^) > >Stefan. The interface has sod all to do with the filing system. You don't like it? then do better. Nev From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 22:33:36 1996 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:30:49 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@CompuServe.COM> Subject: from nev to andrew To: sam users Message-Id: <199611261731_MC1-C62-ECCD@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1076 Lines: 30 On Nov 25, 1996 21:34:54, 'ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale)' wrote: >A few things occurred to me whilst drawing up the SRAM board regarding /dbdr : > >Nev: with the new sambus, would it be possible to >have it so the buffers are automatically enabled during a cpu write? This saves >any write-only hardware from driving the /dbdr line, and shouldn't cause any >problems. I'd guess this is what you're going to do anyway... > As with the old bus, signals going out from the z80 are buffered ie. A0-A15 RFSH, CPU CLK, M1, RESET, WR, RD, MREQ, IOREQ. Unlike the old bus also buffered are D0-D7. The DBDIR line is normally high (10K pullup) allowing data to be written. It is to be driven low by either a tri-state or an open collector for reads. It is the resposibility of the add on hardware to do this. >I think you are assuming that the new SAMBus will have just one set of buffers for all the slots, whereas I'm assuming there will be` >one set of buffers per slot! -Andy He He He. There will indeed be a buffer for the slot. I knows summat you don't. :~) Nev From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 22:33:36 1996 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:30:52 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: sram board To: sam users Message-Id: <199611261731_MC1-C62-ECCE@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 158 Lines: 10 >Would you like me to ask Martin nicely if we can put the MultiROM design out on >the list? > >Simon Yes. Nev. ps Thought he was called Rooky not nicely? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Nov 26 22:50:18 1996 Message-Id: <199611262250.WAA10752@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Dalmation BBS - closure Date: 26 Nov 1996 22:22:25 X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 462 Lines: 23 To sam-users@nvg.unit.no Hi, Please note. Dalmation BBS has closed down. Special thanks to my Co Sysops and all the users who called in the past thirteen months. For the next week (or two), a notice will be displayed to callers on Saturdays to inform them of the closure (on connect). I will try (wherever possible) to email users who don't subscribe to the SAM Users mailing list. Bye, _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore email - davewhitmore@enterprise.net From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 01:16:35 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: from nev to andrew To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 01:15:07 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611261731_MC1-C62-ECCD@compuserve.com> from "Neville Young" at Nov 26, 96 05:30:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 597 Lines: 18 > Unlike the old bus also buffered are D0-D7. The DBDIR line is normally high > (10K pullup) allowing data to be written. > It is to be driven low by either a tri-state or an open collector for > reads. It is the resposibility of the add on hardware to do this. > Ahh... I sort of got the wrong idea of the /dbdir signal - i was thinking it was to enable the buffers, not control direction. So we only need to drive /dbdir on reads then? That makes things much nicer! > He He He. > There will indeed be a buffer for the slot. > I knows summat you don't. :~) > Go on then! Spill the beans... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 08:52:24 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:57:48 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611270757.AA04224@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 346 Lines: 10 > > Because right-arrow has a definition on a command-line. > > Not when the cursor is already on the end of a line (and OK I suppose you > could ask for a completion in the middle of a line but it sounds unlikely). ls -l /usr | sort -d +1 | uniq | mp -o -A4 -l -s "Foo" | lp -d ps Now...if you want to do the same for /usr/local? :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 08:52:25 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:54:45 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611270754.AA04221@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: How long a filename? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 554 Lines: 17 > > On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:39:08 GMT, Gavin Smith said: > > > > > On the other hand, 127-159 are control codes in ISO8859. > > > > Actually I don't know what they are, but whatever it is they are not > > > printable. And 127 is DEL, which is a control code. > > > 128-255 are in the extended set and vary from manufacturer to > > manufacturer. > > The operative words above are "in ISO8859" which, being an international > standard, doesn't vary from manufacturer to manufacturer as far as I am > aware... Exactly, and ISO8859 != ASCII! -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 09:37:12 1996 From: JohnnaPig Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:27:10 GMT+0 Subject: Re: feMails Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 391 Lines: 15 > On Nov 26, 1996 12:55:41, 'Lee Willis ' wrote: > > > >And the award for Most Patronising Mailer 1996 goes to ... > > > >Lee. > -- > Me? Win an award? Oh you are so kind. I though he/she/it wanted us to refer to he/she/it as a feMailer...? > Samsboss. > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 11:10:37 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:58:48 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611271058.AA04380@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1023 Lines: 28 > In a message dated 26/11/96 17:23:24, you write: > > >Lots of systems have one syntax for CLI and another for programming. > >It's a question of what you want the CLI to look like and what you want > >the programming language to look like. > > But on SAM, and SAMSON we will have a combined, all-singing, all-dancing, > Basic+DOS+HDOS+++ > So, unless someone wants to make life VERY difficult for the ROM routines, we > will be sticking to on universal syntax. It can't be that difficult. If you drop the "", you can have two advantages: 1) You can do > LOAD foo (instead of LOAD "foo") There can be no ambiguty as foo can only be a numeric litral. OK, a bit more overhead on the ROM routines, but 2) You can say something like: > bar This will plunge the ROM into searching it's internal comands, which it will not find and then look for procedures to call with that name. If this does not succede, it leaves control over to the DOS which will search the path for a program with that name to execute. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 11:10:46 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961127105651.008e98ec@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:56:51 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1666 Lines: 39 At 05:27 AM 11/27/96 -0500, you wrote: >Status: > >In a message dated 26/11/96 17:23:24, you write: > >>Lots of systems have one syntax for CLI and another for programming. >>It's a question of what you want the CLI to look like and what you want >>the programming language to look like. > >But on SAM, and SAMSON we will have a combined, all-singing, all-dancing, >Basic+DOS+HDOS+++ >So, unless someone wants to make life VERY difficult for the ROM routines, we >will be sticking to on universal syntax. The thing is though, that the BASIC syntax is kludgy, contradictory and slow to use when handling files in any way. This problem with the syntax also passes through to MasterDOS and SAMDOS -- which is why it's incredibly hard to do any standard operations (FORMAT, COPY, File handling, etc) using the DOS hook codes. ie. you don't get the hook codes for most of them in a useable format. The best thing to do would be to have a BASIC editor and a CLI. The BASIC editor lets you access things in the standard Basic syntax (and thus can act as the CLI for everyone who wants to stick with the BASIC syntax), and we can have a CLI for all those people who want to use one of them (to be honest, CLI's are a *lot* better). Integrate the two enough so that functions from one are available in the other (BASIC as a batch processing / shell script language is one possibility), and abstract the BASIC enough so that multitasking becomes a feasible prospect. Which is another thing: we have to make sure that all BIOS calls can be used in a multitasking environment, because that's what we're probably going to end up with in the end, like as not. :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 11:11:56 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:28:03 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961127052800_772499854@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bizzare SAM stories Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 163 Lines: 9 In a message dated 26/11/96 18:13:03, you write: >not to mention the time when I had to replace the colour crystal... Why can't we mention that? (grin) Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 11:12:02 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:27:17 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961127052712_572000142@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 452 Lines: 12 In a message dated 26/11/96 17:23:24, you write: >Lots of systems have one syntax for CLI and another for programming. >It's a question of what you want the CLI to look like and what you want >the programming language to look like. But on SAM, and SAMSON we will have a combined, all-singing, all-dancing, Basic+DOS+HDOS+++ So, unless someone wants to make life VERY difficult for the ROM routines, we will be sticking to on universal syntax. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 11:13:26 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961127094154.008f75d4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:41:54 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS text editor Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 630 Lines: 22 At 01:52 PM 11/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >Status: O > >In a message dated 26/11/96 14:09:19, you write: > >>How about we start planning some of this SAMSon Software? Starting >>with the GUI? > >No, you start at the bottom and work up. >The first thing we need is to get the existing ROM/DOS working in the paged >enviroment of the SRAM board. Then we can start looking at what changes to >make. Speaking of which, Bob... Does Revelation have the rights to COMET and all the sums of its parts? ie. is it possible to get hold of the source code so that it could be integrated into the ROM, and also use external memory? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 12:24:36 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611271211.MAA16564@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:Gif Converter source To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:11:26 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1544 Lines: 38 > Hi everyone... the Ftp site was down (alas), so I'm sending it here... > > ;GIF File reader and converter > ;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Beat me to it! I wish I had read my E-Mail later yesterday! It would have saved me from prolonged exposure to an evil TRC. ;o) I wrote my own one! I did not bother trying to convert the palette as there was so much discussion on how to do it best, I will botch a colour conversion bit onto the end if there is a need. As I do not own SAM C we (A PC owning friend and I) did it in Watcom C, under the assumption that sooner or later it could be fiddled around with and compiled into SAM code. The code is not as nice and does not cope with anywhere near as many standards as Simons so It would be best to use his code for any future development, but the 32bit .exe file we created may be usefull in the short term for people wanting to convert things GIF->SAM now. I will stick it on my www site now, so anyone who wants it can use it. I will also stick the source up there in case anyone wants to experiment. You had better wait about 5 minuits before trying to get it though as I need to find a machine with a disk drive! What is the logic behind having a room full of powerfull SUN SPARCs without disk drives? What are you surposed to do with them? ;o) Numb. Infact make that 10 minuits, it is getting near lunch, about time for a million art students to invade the computer rooms so they can E-mail themselfs and pretend to be popular!? The web site is at... http://BITS.bris.ac.uk/numbly From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 12:24:47 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611271152.LAA16478@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS magic TAB & CLI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:52:53 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1531 Lines: 51 > >But doesn't the BASIC reference the DOS when it finds a DOS command in > >which case if we change DOS syntax we don't need the quotes no more. It > >would be silly to have one syntax for CLI and another for programming > >.. > >Lee. > >Quite agree, it would be silly to have two, that is why the quotes will >stay. >Bob. It would be very silly to have 2 syntaxs. It has been suggested that a magic TAB should be included to help complete filenames (not that I think TAB is the correct key to use) but, why not have this key 'type' a closing " if it only finds one filename. e.g. file called: grobboIsGreen.txt you type: LOAD "grob to get: LOAD "grobboIsGreen.txt" simple and clean. An option that would not be so clean would be if we could simply miss-out the closing quote when loading simple BASIC programs. e.g. type: LOAD "program Just typing a filename to load a program would not be suitable, it would just slow everything down, how about this messy and unpleasant alternative... Treat every command that starts with a quote as a LOAD "" e.g. type: "program is same as: LOAD "program" A much easier and much nicer alternative would be to simply change the string that is entered when the F7 key is pressed! at the moment: LOAD "" change to: LOAD " So we can just press the F7 key and enter the filename! SUMMARY... TAB will 'type' a " character at the end if it can complete the filename. F7 changed to LOAD " Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 12:25:20 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611271129.LAA16337@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS text editor To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:29:23 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2105 Lines: 50 > >No one is saying that we only need one. > >A good text editor and a cut down version of the wordpocessor with the > >machine and a fuller wordprocessor that must be brought. People who > >want a wordprocessor want to buy it. > > > > No, what we do is we write ONE program. > But we make it so good that C programmers and the like will use it as a > text editor, while others can use it as a reasonable wordprocessor. I would use the text editor as a wordproccessor even if I had a super SAMSON wordprocessor with all of the proprtional fonts and advanced wordpocessor features (e.g gramm. check), BUT... When I first added to this strand I developed the idea of writing ONE text editor that could be used for just about every application that maniplates text inc. C and the terminal program. But I identified a couple of applications that would not be suitable to use this program. 'Scape and the wordprocessor where the main ones. There would be little need in providing an (optional) proportional typeface on the text editor, this is what we are realy talking about here, the main difference between a text editor and a word processor as far as the non-sam owning computer using world is concerened is the proportional font and the way they are layed out. I am certain that I would do practially all of my wordprocessing on the text editor, most of us probably would but, we have to cater for the rest of the world if we want to be seen as user friendly. We will need a 'propper' word processor at the release date to keep the professionals, the reviewers and the novice happy. We also want, the sort of daft sole who prefers to use a word processor, to be able to do it from word go. This could be achieved by giving the package with the machine or giving a cut down version and the option to buy with the machine. The real point here is that (please disagree if you think I am wrong) the sort of person who want a word processor wants to buy it. On this assuption we should just give a demo with the machine. SUMMARY... I beleve we will need one even though I would not use it. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 13:02:12 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611271247.MAA16611@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SAM gifreader To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:47:26 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1007 Lines: 21 Yup. I have put it on my site. It will not be very wise to exchange the new operating system and applications like this! It is not very wise to exchange such files at nvg for anyone and everyone to intercept and read. We are not making the software or the hardware PD! What we need is to get a directory somewhere that only people from this list have accounts on and are able to access. We don't want rivals (or outsiders in general) to know exactly where we are in development. Would nvg be able to provide such a service? If they won't then we will need another ftp site. There is a new server in Bristol, called 'bits' that is run by the universitys computer society. At the moment the server does not have very much bandwidth (but this should increase soon) and there is no way to know how stable it will be (then again, compared to nvg...), but it would be quite feasable to talk them into providing such a service for us. I could approach them about it if you think it would be a good move. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 13:43:45 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:36:48 GMT Subject: Re: item 1A - SRAM board Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <1C50A071CE5@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 819 Lines: 26 > >> > > Would be better to use any file format that Paint Shop Pro 3x will > read, > >> > > that is the one that just about everyone will have > >> > > >> > Oh no it isn't. > > > >> Oh yes it is. > > > >Well I haven't got it and it appears that Lee hasn't, so that's not "just > >about everyone" then is it? > > > >imc > -- > Well lets just say that in /the real world/ everyone I've come across has > got Paintshop Pro 3. > > Samsboss. Exactly. Ian, the reason it is nearly standard is cos its so easy to get and does a good job. Off the top of my head, PC Format, PC Answers, PC Direct, PC Pro, PC Review all have it, every single month on their coverdisks. Its also on loads of FTP sites, or just do a seach for Paint Shop Pro on the web and download it from the company itself. Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 14:01:50 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:54:44 GMT Subject: Re: SRAM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <1C556963C8E@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 328 Lines: 15 > On Nov 26, 1996 09:25:37, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: > > > >TIFF. > > > >Simon > -- > I second TIFF, all those in favour please say so. > > Samsboss. Yup, TIFF files are no problem, but someone mentioned the size of the files is pretty big - anyone confirm as I can't remember. Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 14:01:50 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:55:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Graphic progs (was Re: item 1A - SRAM board) In-Reply-To: <1C50A071CE5@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 954 Lines: 33 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Gavin Smith wrote: > > >> > > Would be better to use any file format that Paint Shop Pro 3x will > > read, > > >> > > that is the one that just about everyone will have > > >> > > > >> > Oh no it isn't. > > > > > >> Oh yes it is. > > > > > >Well I haven't got it and it appears that Lee hasn't, so that's not "just > > >about everyone" then is it? > > > > > >imc > > -- > > Well lets just say that in /the real world/ everyone I've come across has > > got Paintshop Pro 3. > > > > Samsboss. > > Exactly. Ian, the reason it is nearly standard is cos its so easy to ^^^^^^ > get and does a good job. Off the top of my head, PC Format, PC ^^ ^^ > Answers, PC Direct, PC Pro, PC Review all have it, every single ^^ ^^ ^^ Ahem. Let us know when they produce the X-windows version won't you. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 14:04:35 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:51:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI In-Reply-To: <199611271152.LAA16478@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1763 Lines: 67 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: > An option that would not be so clean would be if we could simply > miss-out the closing quote when loading simple BASIC programs. > e.g. > type: LOAD "program Nasty... You could only use this method on a command line (ie double quote version in a program) or you would cause an awful lot of work for just one character. As you still need the double quotes for everything else, it's just not worth it really > type: "program > is same as: LOAD "program" Also nasty... Unmatched quotes would send the basic interpreter wild - you could get away with: *program instead tho'. > A much easier and much nicer alternative would be to simply change the > string that is entered when the F7 key is pressed! > at the moment: LOAD "" > change to: LOAD " > > So we can just press the F7 key and enter the filename! > > > SUMMARY... > TAB will 'type' a " character at the end if it can complete the filename. > F7 changed to LOAD " Hmm, I think I'm in favour of a separate CLI: cf BBC Master -- BASIC / MOS? *BASIC - Invoke Basic Interpreter LOAD "proggy" PRINT "Hello World" *QUIT - Exit Basic Interpreter *CAT - Commands in CLI *LOAD "Doobrie" Please note - I am not suggesting we adopt the BBC syntax or anything else, just the CLI/BASIC idea. Then your script from the command line would look something like this D1:\>hello.bat [Commands for CLI...] BASIC PRINT "hello world" [Other script commands written in BASIC...] QUIT [More Commands for CLI] D1:\> Get the idea? If then the users can set their SAMs to default to CLI or BASIC on startup, then everyone's happy. (Ignoring the GUI for the moment - but see the Archimedes for details of CLI/GUI on startup) Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 14:05:56 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:04:12 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: b - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2BD110B5B2B@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 421 Lines: 15 > On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:46:14 GMT, James R Curry said: > > > What? For a start, ESC and F1 are nowhere near each other. > > > They are on this keyboard.... > > Wake up, we covered this several minutes ago! :-) > > imc I had a backlog of 221 messages and was going through them replying as I went.... -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 14:07:15 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:01:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) In-Reply-To: <9611271058.AA04380@asmal.edh-net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1050 Lines: 32 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Frode Tenneboe wrote: > It can't be that difficult. If you drop the "", you can have two advantages: > > 1) You can do > > LOAD foo (instead of LOAD "foo") > > There can be no ambiguty as foo can only be a numeric litral. OK, > a bit more overhead on the ROM routines, but What about: > LOAD 1 In which case > LOAD foo is highly ambiguous - ie numeric literal or filename? > 2) You can say something like: > > bar > > This will plunge the ROM into searching it's internal comands, which > it will not find and then look for procedures to call with that name. > If this does not succede, it leaves control over to the DOS which will > search the path for a program with that name to execute. So never name your files with the names of Basic commands, functions, or names that might be used by someone as a procedure name. Bit restrictive. So my point is that CLI ideas can't be forced into BASIC, and so the logical idea is to seperate the CLI and BASIC - see one of my other posts for details. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 14:28:36 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:20:14 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611271420.AA04631@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1193 Lines: 43 > > It can't be that difficult. If you drop the "", you can have two advantages: > > > > 1) You can do > > > LOAD foo (instead of LOAD "foo") > > > > There can be no ambiguty as foo can only be a numeric litral. OK, > > a bit more overhead on the ROM routines, but > > What about: > > LOAD 1 > In which case > > LOAD foo > is highly ambiguous - ie numeric literal or filename? Isn't that > LOAD p1? Errr... > > > 2) You can say something like: > > > bar > > > > This will plunge the ROM into searching it's internal comands, which > > it will not find and then look for procedures to call with that name. > > If this does not succede, it leaves control over to the DOS which will > > search the path for a program with that name to execute. > > So never name your files with the names of Basic commands, functions, or > names that might be used by someone as a procedure name. Bit restrictive. No, just that your basic command or function has priority. -Frode > > So my point is that CLI ideas can't be forced into BASIC, and so the > logical idea is to seperate the CLI and BASIC - see one of my other posts > for details. Basically...I agree. :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 15:53:58 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:47:20 +0000 Subject: Stuff - one posting as opposed to many Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <32B7BA3F9E@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2605 Lines: 56 If ASCII is so standard then how come on the SAm 127 is copyright? Not del. And all codes < 31 are different too (mostly). Type PRINT CHR$(7). Does it beep? Does it boll. It makes *sense* to seperate the CLI and BASIC as they are different. For compatibility LEAVE basic the same (i reckon). To execute a CLI command, if you need to (like, calling LOAD or FORMAT or SAVE or DIR or whatever are not good enough for you) use something like SHELL "murk.exe > plob.txt" This would impose a restriction on the use of "'s in the CLI, but the point is we wouldn't need them anyway. (possibly. The obvious work around is to have SHELL "lpr the_file_called_""kevin"".txt" to send the_file_called_"kevin".txt to the printer,etc) Basically (< pun ignored) the BASIC should stay the same. Otherwise you might as well rewrite the whole basic and get something better, and then of course we lose the compatibility. > daft sole ... eh? I would EASILY prefer to use a word processor to compose a nice looking document than a text editor, and then fumble around formatting it later. Does this make me daft? >The sort of person who wants to use a word processor wants to buy it Nope. And don't run me down with that 'selfish wasters' line again. I think word processors (and hey, this includes text editors) almost essential, and a computer bundled WITHOUT at least some sort of word processor is at least a bit pants. If I bought a PC (say) with windows bundled (as, i believe, all are these days, and if not then win95, the os2warp phase died out pretty quickly but the same applies even there) to find out there was not even ONE word processor (and hey, microsoft write sucks, but it's better than notepad and dos editor) I'd really be pissed off. Hands up ANYONE who has bought a computer and THEN bought a word processor BEFORE they'd even used the computer? Hands up those who bought the computer and then used the bundled word processor first? Hands up those who've NEVER used a word processor? Hmmm. thought so. > Ahem. > Let us know when ... xwindows ... paint shop pro thingy The point of the discussion was that Samsboss owns a PC and paint shop pro, and wanted to be able to read the files. Under X, you have xv and numerous other programs. And xv's shareware too. (so, you don't need X-paintshoppro do ya?) +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 15:54:11 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:50:09 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: The list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2BED59813A8@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 174 Lines: 5 Is it me..? Or has this list suddenly gone very quiet today..? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:15:35 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:08:23 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961127110823_638307428@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS text editor Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 444 Lines: 15 In a message dated 27/11/96 09:42:34, you write: >Speaking of which, Bob... > >Does Revelation have the rights to COMET and all the sums of its parts? > >ie. is it possible to get hold of the source code so that it could be >integrated into the ROM, and also use external memory? > >Simon Yes, SAMCO bought COMET outright. I'm not sure on the source code side though, will have to investigate that but I can't remember ever seeing it. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:15:55 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:12:57 +0000 Subject: Re: The list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3324C5596C@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 366 Lines: 7 > Is it me..? Or has this list suddenly gone very quiet today..? Nope, I get that feeling too. +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:15:56 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:08:20 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961127110820_1984900707@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS text editor Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1537 Lines: 40 In a message dated 26/11/96 19:15:49, you write: >[cut] >And, IMHO, a 'reasonable' word processor is not going to be good >enough. If I shell out stlg400 on SAMSon, I'll want it to be able to do >things that a cheap Macintosh Classic can do eg. wysiwyg Word >Processors, office packages etc. Agreed, but you cant expect that level of wordprocessor to be included in the price. >[cut] >A 'proper' Word Processor is essential, as is a text editor for C >etc. To combine them may well be possible, but unless it is done with >absolute precsion, it will be to the detriment of one of the two >pieces of software ultimately. Why, if they both process character based information then, provided we give people the ability to turn off the fancy fonts and pro-spacing, as well as allowing simple contol key functions so you don't have to use a mouse, then the same package can do both jobs really well. > >We've got text processors - maybe they're not perfect, but with a >little reworking I'm sure they could be. We haven't got a proper Word >Processor with a decent spellchecker, Thesaurus, wysiwyg, variable >fonts, bold, underline etc, margins and 'proper' TABs, headers and >footers, print previews etc. SAMSon will need one of these regardless >of whom its target audience is because word processiing is one of the >most useful functions of a home computer. Could not agree with you more. > >So why can we not have both? Never said you couldn't, I just feel that it can be done in one. >> Bob. >> > >Johnna Pig Teare From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:18:48 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The list... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:12:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2BED59813A8@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Nov 27, 96 03:50:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 200 Lines: 7 > Is it me..? Or has this list suddenly gone very quiet today..? > -- Yes it has, thankfully. I am getting sick to the back teeth with file-format and text-editor vs wordprocessor arguments! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:18:59 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:18:33 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The list... X-Confirm-Reading-To: "James R Curry" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2BF4E85358B@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 318 Lines: 11 > > Is it me..? Or has this list suddenly gone very quiet today..? > > Nope, I get that feeling too. Damn. Just when I need something to distract me from the work that I should be doing, as well.. ;) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:24:07 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:27:09 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2BF72DC07ED@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 442 Lines: 12 > > Is it me..? Or has this list suddenly gone very quiet today..? > > -- > > Yes it has, thankfully. I am getting sick to the back teeth with > file-format and text-editor vs wordprocessor arguments! The file-format of your email is all wrong, and you should have written it on a word-processor rather than a text editor. ;) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:27:08 1996 From: JohnnaPig Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:23:03 GMT+0 Subject: Re: The list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 526 Lines: 14 > > Is it me..? Or has this list suddenly gone very quiet today..? > > Nope, I get that feeling too. And doesn't it make you feel gooooooooooood! > +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ > | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | > | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | > +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:28:26 1996 From: JohnnaPig Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:22:11 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SOS text editor Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1653 Lines: 43 > In a message dated 26/11/96 19:15:49, you write: > >[cut] > >And, IMHO, a 'reasonable' word processor is not going to be good > >enough. If I shell out stlg400 on SAMSon, I'll want it to be able to do > >things that a cheap Macintosh Classic can do eg. wysiwyg Word > >Processors, office packages etc. > > Agreed, but you cant expect that level of wordprocessor to be included in the > price. > > >[cut] > >A 'proper' Word Processor is essential, as is a text editor for C > >etc. To combine them may well be possible, but unless it is done with > >absolute precsion, it will be to the detriment of one of the two > >pieces of software ultimately. > > Why, if they both process character based information then, provided we give > people the ability to turn off the fancy fonts and pro-spacing, as well as > allowing simple contol key functions so you don't have to use a mouse, then > the same package can do both jobs really well. > > > >We've got text processors - maybe they're not perfect, but with a > >little reworking I'm sure they could be. We haven't got a proper Word > >Processor with a decent spellchecker, Thesaurus, wysiwyg, variable > >fonts, bold, underline etc, margins and 'proper' TABs, headers and > >footers, print previews etc. SAMSon will need one of these regardless > >of whom its target audience is because word processiing is one of the > >most useful functions of a home computer. > > Could not agree with you more. Dammit man, ARGUE WITH ME! :-) *big grin* > >> Bob. > >> > > > >Johnna Pig Teare > > > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:30:35 1996 Subject: Re: SOS text editor To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:25:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <961127110820_1984900707@emout20.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 27, 96 11:08:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Nov27.162607+0000_gmt.46961-2808+92@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1173 Lines: 26 > >[cut] > >A 'proper' Word Processor is essential, as is a text editor for C > >etc. To combine them may well be possible, but unless it is done with > >absolute precsion, it will be to the detriment of one of the two > >pieces of software ultimately. > > Why, if they both process character based information then, provided we give > people the ability to turn off the fancy fonts and pro-spacing, as well as > allowing simple contol key functions so you don't have to use a mouse, then > the same package can do both jobs really well. Actually, the programming issues involved in the two are different in a lot of respects. With a wordprocessor you *have* to cater for the fact that at the end of the day, this info is going to be printed out. You also have to be able to handle fonts, spacing, and any number of other things that the user can throw at you. This involves handling the data as two separate streams, one for formatting data, and the other for actual content. Text editors, however, are much easier to write... I suppose it depends on what you want; if you want a text editor, it'll be finished a good while before the wordprocessor. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:46:22 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:29:45 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam-users Subject: Re: E-Tracker music In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1218 Lines: 37 On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Lee Willis wrote: > ;>ProTracker2 has been released by Persona (someone was asking what t= o spend > ;>money on) I have reviewed the package in the latest issue of Zodiac= , out > ;>as soon as Michael prints it (along with Second Opinion, the Basic = column > ;>competition special, a review AND SOME MAP of Momentum, and a whole= load > ;>of other features; =A31 write to Michael for details) >=20 > Need anyone to test it ...? >=20 > Lee.=20 Test what? ProTracker2, the review, or Momentum? Or the compiler? The answer is probably not, but since I don't actually have anything to= do with it... I just write the software when Malcolm asks me to. Of course, you're welcome to buy a copy....=20 Note to somebody else who thought ProTracker uses samples: sorry, no. T= his uses the sound chip like E-Tracker but is a much better program; it has more instruments, more ornaments, more patterns and more commands (so, = for example, you can do vibratos, portamentos, chords etc without defining specific instruments or ornamentas) Very soon it should also have a superior compiler - actually my current version already is, it already does everything E_Tracker can, and more, faster. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:46:23 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:31:24 GMT Subject: Re: Graphic progs (was Re: item 1A - SRAM board) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <1C7F33B459D@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 546 Lines: 16 > > Exactly. Ian, the reason it is nearly standard is cos its so easy to > ^^^^^^ > > get and does a good job. Off the top of my head, PC Format, PC > ^^ ^^ > > Answers, PC Direct, PC Pro, PC Review all have it, every single > ^^ ^^ ^^ > > Ahem. > > Let us know when they produce the X-windows version won't you. > > > Tim W. Oh for God's sake! Stop being so picky! Its as near as standard as your are gonna get. *sigh* From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:46:23 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:39:13 GMT Subject: Re: The list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <1C81496606F@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 544 Lines: 14 > > > Is it me..? Or has this list suddenly gone very quiet today..? > > > -- > > > > Yes it has, thankfully. I am getting sick to the back teeth with > > file-format and text-editor vs wordprocessor arguments! > > The file-format of your email is all wrong, and you should have > written it on a word-processor rather than a text editor. ;) > -- > James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk Hehe! Hurrah! A mail that made me laugh! Though I expect you will get flamed now for not including 200 lines of machine code in your mail somewhere. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:49:29 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:46:45 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2BFC6E86574@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 792 Lines: 18 > Actually, the file format is perfect, and if you could be arsed > to go out and buy Paintshop Pro to view it, then you would know that. > And, as it happens, I write my emails on paper, scan them, and then > OCR it. SO there. But it's in ASCII.. And although you lot can all read it, in the real world, nobody sends email in ASCII. It needs converting to a word processor format that hasn't been designed yet, UUEncoding, Compressing with ARJ and then reversed, so the first byte is last and the last one first. Then this needs to be listed to the screen and converted to a vector image format. And EVERYONE in the real world that I know gets their email like that.. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:49:38 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:31:51 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: More errors In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 481 Lines: 21 On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, JohnnaPig Teare wrote: > > While we're on the subject, has anybody worked out how to display SamDOS > > error code 110? > > > > I won't spoil the fun by telling you what it is, but you can see it > > 'artificially' by typing POKE 16384,207,110:CALL 16384 > > Go on, let us know what it is! I haven't got my SAM here with me in > England! It says: No SamDOS loaded "Help, I'm not in memory!" Could have been a joke for the hackers, I s'pose. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:49:39 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:40:05 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: E-Tracker music - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 544 Lines: 24 > Very soon it should also have a superior compiler - > actually my current version already is, it already > does everything E_Tracker can, and more, faster. Will it allow you to: 1. Load old Etracker .M files 2. Convert MOD patterns to Sam Protracker (I understand they use the same format, so would 'chip' tunes convert straight across?) If so, I'll be raiding ftp.luth.se for chip MODS and raiding the E-tunes (via the de-compiler) from Fred :) This also means I will buy it, not that I'm musically minded you understand. :) Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:49:44 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:48:48 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2BFCF824439@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 359 Lines: 24 > Hehe! Hurrah! A mail that made me laugh! Though I expect you will get > flamed now for not including 200 lines of machine code in your mail > somewhere. Easily fixed.. RET NOP LD A,0 RET NOP LD A,0 RET NOP LD A,0 RET NOP LD A,0 X 200.. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 16:52:49 1996 From: JohnnaPig Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:28:53 GMT+0 Subject: Any WEBSITE offers? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 724 Lines: 18 Right, Anybody who wants to mail me their website address for inclusion on mine is more than welcome to - I'll be putting them up by the end of this week all things considered, so the sooner the better. If you could send it to me with the subject heading saying WEBSITE then that would be most helpful as i'm trying to filter some of my mail now - these last few weeks have been a bit too much for my eyes! And whilst I'm here, can I advocate the use of subject lines - they make everything so much easier, especially when we're all talking about different things now. That's ASCII debate was the last straw!! Cheers, Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 17:00:23 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The list... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:33:31 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2BF72DC07ED@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Nov 27, 96 04:27:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 491 Lines: 12 > > Yes it has, thankfully. I am getting sick to the back teeth with > > file-format and text-editor vs wordprocessor arguments! > > The file-format of your email is all wrong, and you should have > written it on a word-processor rather than a text editor. ;) > -- Actually, the file format is perfect, and if you could be arsed to go out and buy Paintshop Pro to view it, then you would know that. And, as it happens, I write my emails on paper, scan them, and then OCR it. SO there. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 17:27:29 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:16:48 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The list... In-Reply-To: <2BFCF824439@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 282 Lines: 38 > RET > NOP > LD A,0 > RET > NOP > LD A,0 > RET > NOP > LD A,0 > RET > NOP > LD A,0 > > X 200.. Glad to see you've unrolled the loop, but this can easily be further optimised. RET NOP XOR A RET NOP XOR A RET NOP XOR A RET NOP XOR A X 200 Glad to be of service, Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 17:32:36 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:14:10 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: E-Tracker music - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1070 Lines: 33 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Dan Doore wrote: > Will it allow you to: > > 1. Load old Etracker .M files Er, no - but a convertor shouldn't be too hard. If anybody knows anthing about the E-Tracker format I'll look into it. (I know the ProTracker format, having spent time hacking some test files to bits in order to write the compiler) > 2. Convert MOD patterns to Sam Protracker (I > understand they use the same format, so would 'chip' > tunes convert straight across?) Yes. Samples aren't converted (surprise), I've never heard of a chip mod file, so that may or may not be okay. Again you need a converter program, but that is on the disk. The formats can't be exactly the same, since Sam Protracker uses 6 channels, wheras mods (AFAIK) only 4. It is true that all the commands are the same, ie a portamento in a MOD means portamento in ProTracker. > If so, I'll be raiding ftp.luth.se for chip MODS and > raiding the E-tunes (via the de-compiler) from Fred :) > > This also means I will buy it, not that I'm musically > minded you understand. :) > > Dan. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 17:39:15 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:30:02 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: E-Tracker music - Reply - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1476 Lines: 41 > > Will it allow you to: > > > 1. Load old Etracker .M files > > Er, no - but a convertor shouldn't be too hard. If anybody > knows anthing about the E-Tracker format I'll look into it. > (I know the ProTracker format, having spent time hacking > some test files to bits in order to write the compiler) Shouldn't be too hard, I imagine, Stefan's the converter man, he can do it ;) heh heh heh > Yes. Samples aren't converted (surprise), I've never heard > of a chip mod file, so that may or may not be okay. Again > you need a converter program, but that is on the disk. The > formats can't be exactly the same, since Sam > Protracker uses 6 channels, wheras mods (AFAIK) only 4. Chip MODS are (AFAIK) MODS that don't use samples but simple waveforms, there was a wave editor built into Protracker 3.1b as I recall. It's a bit like E-Tracker instruments I imagine, so it should be possible to do a straight conversion. Stefan's the MOD man, he can do it :))) HEH HEH HEH Seriously though, Mr Dirssen must be the man to talk to for this sort of stuff. Right, I've got a home to go to, seeya. Dan. +==========================+-------------------------------------------+ | Dan Doore | Mail: dooredj@parliament.uk | | HOC SOC & POD | Voice: 0171-219-0441 | | House of Commons Library | Snail: 1 Derby Gate, Westminster, London | +==========================+-------------------------------------------+ From imc Wed Nov 27 17:41:15 1996 Subject: Re: SOS text editor To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:41:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961127110820_1984900707@emout20.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 27, 96 11:08:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 504 Lines: 10 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:08:20 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Why, if they both process character based information then, provided we give > people the ability to turn off the fancy fonts and pro-spacing, as well as > allowing simple contol key functions so you don't have to use a mouse, then > the same package can do both jobs really well. ^^^^^^^^^^^ I'll believe it when I see it. Unfortunately, that will be way too late for me to say "I told you so"... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 17:45:26 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:37:32 GMT Subject: .wav files Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <1C90CEE5A77@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 66 Lines: 1 Any chance of a SAM wav player? Or even a .ra (RealAudio) player? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 18:26:33 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:23:56 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961127132356_1453382417@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 286 Lines: 10 In a message dated 27/11/96 11:56:44, you write: >An option that would not be so clean would be if we could simply >miss-out the closing quote when loading simple BASIC programs. >e.g. >type: LOAD "program Amstrad CPC Basic did that, and caused me lots of problems once. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 18:26:34 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:23:51 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961127132351_706238609@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 593 Lines: 16 In a message dated 27/11/96 10:57:44, you write: >The thing is though, that the BASIC syntax is kludgy, contradictory and slow >to use when handling files in any way. True, but with just a little effort the syntax can be sorted out. > >This problem with the syntax also passes through to MasterDOS and SAMDOS -- >which is why it's incredibly hard to do any standard operations (FORMAT, >COPY, File handling, etc) using the DOS hook codes. ie. you don't get the >hook codes for most of them in a useable format. Agreed, but this is one of the first things that needs to be reworked. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 18:27:01 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:23:59 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961127132355_1352719377@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1292 Lines: 39 In a message dated 27/11/96 11:01:10, you write: >It can't be that difficult. If you drop the "", you can have two advantages: > >1) You can do > > LOAD foo (instead of LOAD "foo") > >There can be no ambiguty as foo can only be a numeric litral. OK, >a bit more overhead on the ROM routines, but But how do you cope with the device specifier? the command LOAD d1:foo would cause mega problems. > >2) You can say something like: > > bar > >This will plunge the ROM into searching it's internal comands, which >it will not find and then look for procedures to call with that name. >If this does not succede, it leaves control over to the DOS which will >search the path for a program with that name to execute. I would like to see the syntax parsing simplyfied by either:- a) including the command PROC to introduce a call to a procedure or b) forcing all procedures to be declared before they are called in a program. My leaning is towards the first option, although I do have another alternative which I wont go into this time. > > -Frode The only problems at the moment are caused by there being SAM ROM, plus DOS, plus MasterBasic, plus HDOS - all needing to have their go at things. One intergrated operating system, with a set of commands that follow rules, will cure that. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 18:27:25 1996 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:24:00 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961127132357_1553414801@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SRAM Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 257 Lines: 10 In a message dated 27/11/96 13:58:34, you write: >Yup, TIFF files are no problem, but someone mentioned the size of the >files is pretty big - anyone confirm as I can't remember. > >Gavin Smith TIFF can be a bit big, but they can often ZIP well. Bob. From imc Wed Nov 27 18:29:22 1996 Subject: Re: Gif Converter source To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:29:22 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961126100654.0099e708@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 26, 96 10:06:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1044 Lines: 30 On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:06:54 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > Hi everyone... the Ftp site was down (alas), so I'm sending it here... > ;GIF File reader and converter > ;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ;Very dodgy and very alpha -- first pass only. > lmpr: EQU &FA > hmpr: EQU &FB > vmpr: EQU &FC > brdr: EQU &FE [lots of assembler code much like this] OK then, I have placed my ppmtosam and samtoppm sources on the web in the directory http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/users/ian.collier/Misc/ The ppmtosam program is quite complicated and has some built-in help. By the way, don't expect to compile these on a Sam because they store the whole ppm file in memory at once and it is 147456 bytes long. I have modified the colour algorithms to produce Simon's favourite colours. :-) Note that I haven't really tested it since I did this so I can't guarantee that the result is an improvement. In particular, the new version of ppm->sam will produce bright white much less often than the old version. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 18:33:30 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:36:50 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The list... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2C19CA80482@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 341 Lines: 29 > Glad to see you've unrolled the loop, but this can easily be further > optimised. > > RET > NOP > XOR A > RET > NOP > XOR A > RET > NOP > XOR A > RET > NOP > XOR A > > X 200 > > > Glad to be of service, > > Andrew -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From imc Wed Nov 27 18:35:27 1996 Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:35:27 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961127132355_1352719377@emout07.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 27, 96 01:23:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1220 Lines: 32 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:23:59 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > I would like to see the syntax parsing simplyfied by either:- > a) including the command PROC to introduce a call to a procedure Yes, (but why introduce this now?) > b) forcing all procedures to be declared before they are called in a program. Certainly not! The whole point of coding PROC init instead of a huge load of assignments or load instructions is because they are not important enough to put at the beginning of the program. Also, your suggestion disallows mutually recursive procedures (not that I have this brilliant program that uses them, but they could be useful). This was all in reply to... > >2) You can say something like: > > > bar > > > >This will plunge the ROM into searching it's internal comands, which > >it will not find and then look for procedures to call with that name. > >If this does not succede, it leaves control over to the DOS which will > >search the path for a program with that name to execute. which is a bad idea in Sam BASIC because all you have to do is mistype a simple command and the thing will go off trying to load it from disk. If you want that then you had better have a separate CLI. imc From imc Wed Nov 27 18:39:04 1996 Subject: Re: Bizzare SAM stories To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:39:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961127052800_772499854@emout15.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 27, 96 05:28:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 307 Lines: 10 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:28:03 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > In a message dated 26/11/96 18:13:03, you write: > >not to mention the time when I had to replace the colour crystal... > Why can't we mention that? (grin) I didn't say you couldn't. I was just commenting that I hadn't mentioned it. imc From imc Wed Nov 27 18:40:30 1996 Subject: Re: SAM gifreader To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:40:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611271247.MAA16611@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Nov 27, 96 12:47:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 358 Lines: 8 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:47:26 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > It is not very wise to exchange such files at nvg for anyone and everyone > to intercept and read. We are not making the software or the hardware PD! You can easily make a password protected directory on a web server (no special access is required unless you have paranoid sysadmins). imc From imc Wed Nov 27 18:40:59 1996 Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: b - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:40:59 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2BD110B5B2B@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Nov 27, 96 02:04:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 163 Lines: 7 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:04:12 GMT, James R Curry said: > I had a backlog of 221 messages and was going through them replying > as I went.... Bad idea. :-) imc From imc Wed Nov 27 18:47:02 1996 Subject: Re: Stuff - one posting as opposed to many To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:47:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <32B7BA3F9E@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Nov 27, 96 03:47:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1595 Lines: 48 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:47:20 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > If ASCII is so standard then how come on the SAm 127 is copyright? 'Cos the SAM doesn't have ASCII control codes (why not?). > It makes *sense* to seperate the CLI and BASIC as they are different. Indeed. > This would impose a restriction on the use of "'s in the CLI No, since as you suggested the quotes can be doubled. You can also write the command SHELL a$ if you have a command in a$. > I think word processors (and hey, this includes text editors) almost > essential, and a computer bundled WITHOUT at least some sort of word > processor is at least a bit pants. I think what Mr Teare is suggesting (or is it Mr Skists?) is that there will be a word processor on there (as well as the text editor). It's just that if you want a more decent one you have to pay for it. :-) > Hands up ANYONE who has bought a computer and THEN bought a word > processor BEFORE they'd even used the computer? Nope. > Hands up those who > bought the computer and then used the bundled word processor first? Nope. > Hands up those who've NEVER used a word processor? * O * |_|_| Yep. :-) | / \ > The point of the discussion was that Samsboss owns a PC and paint > shop pro, and wanted to be able to read the files. Under X, you have > xv and numerous other programs. And xv's shareware too. (so, you > don't need X-paintshoppro do ya?) Yes if someone, reasoning that Paint Shop Pro is "standard", produces a proprietary file format that doesn't work on xv. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 19:05:17 1996 Message-Id: <199611271851.SAA22748@mail.enterprise.net> From: David Munden To: sam-users Subject: Re: Sam Users List Again (Was: Re: Like a virgin?) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:29:35 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 226 Lines: 8 > > Spelling is slightly wrong :) > If you'd write more, maybe we'd remember how to spell it! ;) It is not easy writing with one hand I can tell you. :) _ |_)avid (\/)unden http://homepages.enterprise.net/davidm/index.html From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 19:05:18 1996 Message-Id: <199611271851.SAA22766@mail.enterprise.net> From: David Munden To: sam-users Subject: Re: SAMSON ugly? Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:32:35 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 721 Lines: 19 > > How about a box to hold all the extras, connected to SAM via twisted > > pair cables (I'm told ribbon cable would not work - is that true). > > Samsboss. > > Ugly? Baaa! I think quite the opposite is true! > You cannot have a computer in a single tidy box! > > My Speccy looked much nicer than my SAM does at it had a huge Discovery > disk drive, a couple of joystick interfaces, an RGB screen driving > interface, a microface etc. and lots of unnecessary wires and leads laying > about! I think it is more to do with ego :) It looks like you have spent more money if everything is spread out over a table instead of in a single box. :) _ |_)avid (\/)unden http://homepages.enterprise.net/davidm/index.html From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 19:09:29 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:07:34 GMT Subject: Re: SAMSON ugly? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <1CA8D652A93@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 769 Lines: 19 > > Ugly? Baaa! I think quite the opposite is true! > > You cannot have a computer in a single tidy box! > > > > My Speccy looked much nicer than my SAM does at it had a huge Discovery > > disk drive, a couple of joystick interfaces, an RGB screen driving > > interface, a microface etc. and lots of unnecessary wires and leads laying > > about! > > I think it is more to do with ego :) It looks like you have spent more money > if everything is spread out over a table > instead of in a single box. :) > > _ > |_)avid (\/)unden Hmm...I have a Sam with a mouse interface, a printer interface and soon I will have a hard drive interface, a clock, a two-up and a Quazar soundcard. I'm going to have to buy a new desk just to put the cute little white boxes on! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 19:49:21 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <27143.199611271945@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Sam Users List Again (Was: Re: Like a virgin?) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:45:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611271851.SAA22748@mail.enterprise.net> from "David Munden" at Nov 26, 96 10:29:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 245 Lines: 7 > > > Spelling is slightly wrong :) > > If you'd write more, maybe we'd remember how to spell it! ;) > It is not easy writing with one hand I can tell you. :) Okay, I'll bite - why are you writing with one hand? (No filthy answers, please...) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Nov 27 23:11:35 1996 Message-Id: <199611272309.AAA26858@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: .wav files Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 00:09:54 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 579 Lines: 16 ---------- > Van: Gavin Smith > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: .wav files > Datum: Wednesday, November 27, 1996 6:37 PM > > Any chance of a SAM wav player? Or even a .ra (RealAudio) player? Martijn Groen has already a waveplayer, but it works with Samdac only, plays 8-bit waves at 11025, 22050 and 44100 Hz, mono and stereo. The wav-files can be up to 496k long, and his player can load from Samdos and MSdos disks. Its is not bug-free and idiotproof but it works. Robert van der Veeke AKA RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] In naam der koningin From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 08:13:55 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:10:39 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611280810.AA05034@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 413 Lines: 13 > But how do you cope with the device specifier? the command LOAD d1:foo would > cause mega problems. True.. > The only problems at the moment are caused by there being SAM ROM, plus DOS, > plus MasterBasic, plus HDOS - all needing to have their go at things. One > intergrated operating system, with a set of commands that follow rules, will > cure that. And a CLI will cure file-access problems. :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 08:31:15 1996 Message-Id: <329D4D3D.41C6@math.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:28:45 +0100 From: Slawomir Grodkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.2 alpha) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Gif Converter source References: <199611271211.MAA16564@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1818 Lines: 46 Stephen Harding wrote: > > > Hi everyone... the Ftp site was down (alas), so I'm sending it here... > > > > ;GIF File reader and converter > > ;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Beat me to it! > I wish I had read my E-Mail later yesterday! It would have saved me from > prolonged exposure to an evil TRC. ;o) > > I wrote my own one! > I did not bother trying to convert the palette as there was so much > discussion on how to do it best, I will botch a colour conversion bit onto > the end if there is a need. > As I do not own SAM C we (A PC owning friend and I) did it in Watcom C, > under the assumption that sooner or later it could be fiddled > around with and compiled into SAM code. > > The code is not as nice and does not cope with anywhere near as many > standards as Simons so It would be best to use his code for any future > development, but the 32bit .exe file we created may be usefull in the > short term for people wanting to convert things GIF->SAM now. > > I will stick it on my www site now, so anyone who wants it can use it. > I will also stick the source up there in case anyone wants to experiment. > > You had better wait about 5 minuits before trying to get it though as I > need to find a machine with a disk drive! > What is the logic behind having a room full of powerfull SUN SPARCs > without disk drives? What are you surposed to do with them? ;o) > > Numb. > Infact make that 10 minuits, it is getting near lunch, about time for a > million art students to invade the computer rooms so they can E-mail > themselfs and pretend to be popular!? > > The web site is at... > http://BITS.bris.ac.uk/numbly I have my own gif->sam converter , and it dont need to load first the gif-file to the memory . THis convert the gif-file direct from disk to memory .... Slawek. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 08:40:22 1996 Message-Id: <329D4F3B.167E@math.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:37:15 +0100 From: Slawomir Grodkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.2 alpha) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Coupe Mailing List Subject: What about lha , arj , zip for Sam or ( and ) SamSon ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 318 Lines: 10 I have try to compile the lha source with Sam's Small C v:3.2 , but this 'crap' won't do it so , that this will work . Small C compiled this , but the code wont work properly :-((( And Hisoft C code must be patched ... Had anyone try to write lha ( unlha ) , arj ( unarj ) or zip ( unzip - hi Simon ... ) . Slawek. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 08:42:54 1996 Message-Id: <329D5023.2781@math.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:41:07 +0100 From: Slawomir Grodkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.2 alpha) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: .wav files References: <1C90CEE5A77@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 162 Lines: 7 Gavin Smith wrote: > > Any chance of a SAM wav player? Or even a .ra (RealAudio) player? I got one from my fred from Poland , I can upload it to nvg . Slawek. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:06:52 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961128100240.008e31b4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:02:40 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Stuff - one posting as opposed to many Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1134 Lines: 30 At 03:47 PM 11/27/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: RO > >If ASCII is so standard then how come on the SAm 127 is copyright? >Not del. And all codes < 31 are different too (mostly). Type >PRINT CHR$(7). Does it beep? Does it boll. It's a hang-on from the Spectrum. Nuff said. >It makes *sense* to seperate the CLI and BASIC as they are different. >For compatibility LEAVE basic the same (i reckon). To execute a CLI >command, if you need to (like, calling LOAD or FORMAT or SAVE or DIR >or whatever are not good enough for you) use something like >SHELL "murk.exe > plob.txt" >This would impose a restriction on the use of "'s in the CLI, but the >point is we wouldn't need them anyway. (possibly. The obvious work >around is to have >SHELL "lpr the_file_called_""kevin"".txt" >to send the_file_called_"kevin".txt to the printer,etc) Sounds damn fine to me! >Basically (< pun ignored) the BASIC should stay the same. Otherwise >you might as well rewrite the whole basic and get something better, >and then of course we lose the compatibility. Not necessarily -- it could be done with compatibility still in there... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:06:55 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961128100243.008fde48@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:02:43 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Gif Converter source Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 233 Lines: 9 At 09:28 AM 11/28/96 +0100, you wrote: >I have my own gif->sam converter , and it dont need to load first the >gif-file to the memory . THis convert the gif-file direct from disk to >memory .... Put it on ftp.nvg.unit.no!!! Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:08:49 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: samson To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:04:35 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611191502_MC1-C2C-9800@compuserve.com> from "Neville Young" at Nov 19, 96 03:02:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 430 Lines: 12 Where is the Samson project heading? Never mind what the Samson is to be bundled with at the moment - there's no machine to bundle it around! Who is doing what, and when? I know I am going to be tied up for the next 3 weeks with exams, but early next year I am keen to make a crack at things on the hardware side.... but what hardware, I dunno. Let's hear from people which areas they specifically want to help out on.. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:11:23 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:06:02 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: .wav files - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 372 Lines: 13 > Martijn Groen has already a waveplayer, but it works > with Samdac only, plays 8-bit waves at 11025, 22050 > and 44100 Hz, mono and stereo. The wav-files can be > up to 496k long, and his player can load from Samdos and > MSdos disks. Its is not bug-free and idiotproof but it works. Can this be uploaded to NVG anyway? Slawek - Can you upload yours as well? Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:12:09 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961128101021.009a85d4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:10:21 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re:Gif Converter source Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1340 Lines: 37 At 12:11 PM 11/27/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> Hi everyone... the Ftp site was down (alas), so I'm sending it here... >> >> ;GIF File reader and converter >> ;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Beat me to it! >I wish I had read my E-Mail later yesterday! It would have saved me from >prolonged exposure to an evil TRC. ;o) > >I wrote my own one! GOOD! :-) Mine isn't guaranteed to work all that well -- it was a work in progress I never quite finished. It could convert them though... just painfully :) THe most finished one I did was the IFF->SAM converter, which Chris White used for quite a few Gamegear and Master System games ;) >I did not bother trying to convert the palette as there was so much >discussion on how to do it best, I will botch a colour conversion bit onto >the end if there is a need. >As I do not own SAM C we (A PC owning friend and I) did it in Watcom C, >under the assumption that sooner or later it could be fiddled >around with and compiled into SAM code. groovy! >The code is not as nice and does not cope with anywhere near as many >standards as Simons so It would be best to use his code for any future >development, but the 32bit .exe file we created may be usefull in the >short term for people wanting to convert things GIF->SAM now. It'll need a lot of development (mine that is) :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:22:41 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 05:19:57 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961128051956_806208494@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS text editor Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1238 Lines: 31 In a message dated 27/11/96 16:29:22, you write: >Actually, the programming issues involved in the two are different in a >lot of respects. With a wordprocessor you *have* to cater for the fact >that at the end of the day, this info is going to be printed out. You >also have to be able to handle fonts, spacing, and any number of other >things that the user can throw at you. > >This involves handling the data as two separate streams, one for >formatting data, and the other for actual content. > >Text editors, however, are much easier to write... > >I suppose it depends on what you want; if you want a text editor, it'll >be finished a good while before the wordprocessor. > >Simon Ya, see your point, but... Look at it this way, to store the data withing the wordprocessor in the most compact way you store it as text (with a few control thingymebobs) you then have a routine that converts that to a screen format, and another (very similar or you got problems) routine that converts this internal form into printed output. Right, so, write the TEXT handling bit, then the printer driver bit, then the screen driver bit. But at no time do you stop people having access to the bare-bones text handler at the heart. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:23:21 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 05:19:51 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961128051949_772654062@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS text editor Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 151 Lines: 12 In a message dated 27/11/96 16:27:16, you write: >Dammit man, ARGUE WITH ME! :-) >*big grin* >> >> Bob. >> >> >> > >> >Johnna Pig Teare No. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:23:21 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 05:20:00 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961128051957_1084585198@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The list... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 443 Lines: 15 In a message dated 27/11/96 16:37:58, you write: >Actually, the file format is perfect, and if you could be arsed >to go out and buy Paintshop Pro to view it, then you would know that. >And, as it happens, I write my emails on paper, scan them, and then >OCR it. SO there. > > Doy you then recycle the paper by using typex to cover your written words, or do you file them all away (grin). Oh boy, I'm getting as daft as Samsboss.... Bob. From imc Thu Nov 28 10:38:02 1996 Subject: Re: .wav files To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:38:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611272309.AAA26858@mailserv.caiw.nl> from "Robert van der Veeke" at Nov 28, 96 00:09:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 133 Lines: 5 > Any chance of a SAM wav player? Or even a .ra (RealAudio) player? I have a Sam .au player... (it only uses the sound chip). imc From imc Thu Nov 28 10:42:56 1996 Subject: Re: New mailing list... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:42:56 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 778 Lines: 18 On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:58:41 +0000, Simon Cooke implored: >Anyone willing to bodge the sendmail program and maildaemon on a system they >run? Let me continue... > >I'm going to write a mailing list program in JAVA... now, it needs to be >able to handle lots of different usernames on incoming mail (the reason >being that I'm going to have threading in it, therefore the name in the >reply-to is the message-id of the message you're replying to... I'd do it >the standard way, but not enough mailing software follows the standard [that >option is optional, after all]). Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why don't you just put the message-id in the real name bit of the Reply-To? imc PS Quiet today - is everyone off for thanksgiving? :-) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 10:56:04 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:51:17 GMT Subject: Re: .wav files Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <1DA484F0C21@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 418 Lines: 13 > > Any chance of a SAM wav player? Or even a .ra (RealAudio) player? > > I have a Sam .au player... (it only uses the sound chip). > > imc > Forgive my ignorance/memory - is .au a version of RealAudio? I seem to remember from my RealAudio player at home that there is an option to play au files... Any chance of putting the .au player (and the other .wav players that people have mentioned?) on nvg? Cheers! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 11:13:42 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 06:12:02 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961128061202_1285827896@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Samson - Target 1. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2303 Lines: 49 In a message dated 28/11/96 10:06:49, you write: >Where is the Samson project heading? Never mind >what the Samson is to be bundled with at the moment - >there's no machine to bundle it around! Who is doing >what, and when? I know I am going to be tied up for the >next 3 weeks with exams, but early next year I am >keen to make a crack at things on the hardware side.... >but what hardware, I dunno. >Let's hear from people which areas they specifically >want to help out on.. > >-Andy A good question, so here goes with what I hope will be a good answer. High on the list of targets for the new year is the SRAM card. Why is this so important? Well, what started all this mailing was, if you can remember that far back, a question to people on the list about helping in the development of the next version of HDOS. I feel that before we can talk about which word-processor to write, what version of C to port, how to write a web browser and all the rest, we need to have the tools of the trade. Namely, good mass storage and a bug free operating system. It has already been pointed out that it is often difficult to hook things into the operating system because the ROM/DOS/MasterBasic intercommunication is just a pain in the bum. So we change it, and at the same time add the coding for HDOS. Now this sounds, at the same time, both easy and difficult. It is, both. And it will not be a very short job. But stage one is to get the ROM into the SRAM so it can be poked with mods - from there on the hard work really starts. Yes, we do need to look at the Z380 card, and the Graphics card, and lots of other bits. But until we can get a stable development system to run our assemblers, C, and whateverelse we need on, then we are stumped. So, that is the first target. As part of this project we need to clean up SAM Basic syntax - we don't have to have compatibility in this area because you can still always drop back to the V3 ROM inside your SAM to play old games (and I will worry about how to give that compatibility on the SAMSON a little nearer the time). So, there you have it. First target is the SRAM board so we can start getting people onto the software. A full buffer board will be out in the early part of the New Year so people can start looking at the hardware side. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 11:13:47 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 06:12:04 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961128061202_1352829752@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 575 Lines: 20 Could I please have some short(ish) comments on SAM Basic/MasterDOS/MasterBasic. What I want is for people to list:- 1) features they like/use most 2) features the dislike 3) any new command you would like to see (with example if needed) 4) known bugs (code to demo the bug if poss - and a solution if you have it) This is to help me prepare a draft of changes to make when the ROM/DOS get merged. I would also like to hear from anyone who considers that they have a good working knowledge of the ROM and/or MasterDOS. Look forward to the usual flood of replies. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 11:13:50 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 06:11:59 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961128061155_1218732344@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON ugly? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 358 Lines: 10 In a message dated 27/11/96 19:08:48, you write: >Hmm...I have a Sam with a mouse interface, a printer interface and >soon I will have a hard drive interface, a clock, a two-up and a >Quazar soundcard. I'm going to have to buy a new desk just to put the >cute little white boxes on! Not with new interfaces you won't, cos they take up less room. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 11:29:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961128112737.008ee6f8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:27:37 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: New mailing list... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 212 Lines: 8 At 10:42 AM 11/28/96 +0000, you wrote: >Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why don't you just put the >message-id in the real name bit of the Reply-To? You star! I didn't even think of that! :) Simon From imc Thu Nov 28 11:34:49 1996 Subject: Re: .wav files To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:34:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1DA484F0C21@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> from "Gavin Smith" at Nov 28, 96 10:51:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 362 Lines: 12 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:51:17 GMT, Gavin Smith said: > Forgive my ignorance/memory - is .au a version of RealAudio? I have no idea what RealAudio is, but .au is sun-format sound which is vaguely "standard" on the Web. > Any chance of putting the .au player (and the other .wav players that > people have mentioned?) on nvg? Cheers! If I can find it... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 11:44:47 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:32:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: 51 FPC Error, ARGH!!!! In-Reply-To: <9611261816.AA03417@booth6.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3168 Lines: 74 On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:57:04 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > > Does anyone know the criteria needed to get 51 FPC error? I still can't get it > > by manipulating the numbers... > > I think that happens if you delete too much stuff from the FPC stack. > > I have also had it when the program and/or machine stack was not in the > right position (I think that means: don't put the program or the machine > stack in section D). You are absolutely right! I discovered this last night (I've been away from the net for a couple of days - back this morning) Take this program, for example:- 1) org 49152 rst #28 db #27,#91,0,0,0,0 ; stack 65536 db #e2 ; stack 16384 db #03 ; (65536 - 16384) db #33 ; exit call #121 ; call jgetint ret What's wrong? PRINT USR 49152 kept giving me a Integer out of range error..... I could NOT understand it at the time. Then I changed the ORG address to 40000 and.... Well, PRINT USR 40000 prints the answer of 49152 and gives an OK. I just couldn't understand it... Changing the org to 50000, I got my all-time favourite error message: 51 FPC Error... Hmmm... The only interesting theories that I could come up with is that (a) 49152 is lying and is not an integer :) or (b) the FPC does not like block D... OK.. I finally got around to Teledisking that Turbomon (A truely excellent program, Si Owen! :) ) and had a look at #28... This is what I discovered - The ROM routine puts the value of (SP) (The calling address) into IX. It pages IN ROM1 and calls the program at around 50000... See now? The FPC is paged in over my lovely calculations and IX is now pointing at some code in the ROM1 and thinking THAT'S the calculation to be manipulated!! And hence the reason why I keep getting strange errors... And guess where I located my SMIDIP routines... Yep, ORGed at 49152... No wonder I couldn't find the bug in my program - The program was it's own bug itself! I haven't had the chance to fix my program yet. Mainly because I was in the middle of my Artificial Intelligence assignment when I had that sudden flash of inspiration.. Can anyone actually point to a page in the tech manual telling me that you can't use block D for FPCs....???? I think it's pretty stupid that you can only use 16K if you have almost 0 free space for BASIC programs and you need to use FPC and other ROM routines in m/code... That's the reason why I put all my stuff at 49152 - so I don't have to worry about paging much and have quite a lot of room for BASIC.. It wouldn't be so bad if the FPC routines were infact in ROM0 or it could cope with paging! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From imc Thu Nov 28 11:45:44 1996 Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:45:44 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961128061202_1352829752@emout11.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 28, 96 06:12:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1654 Lines: 41 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 06:12:04 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > What I want is for people to list:- > 1) features they like/use most I don't use BASIC much at all so not much here. > 2) features the dislike Sam BASIC only has one-line function definitions. In BBC BASIC a function is quite a lot like a procedure except that it can return a value. > 4) known bugs (code to demo the bug if poss - and a solution if you have it) There is the ON ERROR bug, for which I included a fix in Sam PLAY. I can't remember exactly what the fix was, but the bug is that if you do an ON ERROR in a BASIC program which is several pages [as in 16K pages] long then if an error actually does occur it just says "Not understood" instead of doing what you told it. It is due to the page number being lost somewhere. If you have enough labels in your program to require more than 512 bytes of variable space then the Sam crashes every time you CLEAR or RUN (it also takes a very loooong time to start the program even without the crash). I haven't tracked this one down. If you press the break button and type a BASIC command then it will usually be OK (until the next time you CLEAR). If you have lots and lots of labels you might have to do this several times. The other day I was typing a program which included the lines 100 getnum x ... 1000 DEF PROC getnum REF n and without fail every time it got to line 100 it would say "Not understood". I have no idea why. If I typed "getnum x" on the command line it would work. I could then continue the program and it would work. I have no idea why it did this but in the end I had to use GOSUB instead! imc From imc Thu Nov 28 11:54:52 1996 Subject: Re: 51 FPC Error, ARGH!!!! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:54:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 28, 96 11:32:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1329 Lines: 31 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:32:20 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > > (I think that means: don't put the program or the machine > > stack in section D). > You are absolutely right! I discovered this last night (I've been away from > the net for a couple of days - back this morning) > The ROM routine puts the value of (SP) (The calling address) into IX. > It pages IN ROM1 and calls the program at around 50000... This is pretty much how I discovered this some time ago. It was driving me mad until I found out. On the other hand you needn't have bothered, because if you look in the archives [http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/users/ian.collier/Misc/sam-users/] you will discover that I wrote on 22 November 1996: #On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:04:28 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: #> Is there any discrepances between the ROM Floating Point Calculator commands #> listed in the Tech Manual (Issue 3 - The Format one) and the ones in ROM3.0? # #Not that I know of. The FPC can be rather fussy about the entry conditions #though. I think the most important undocumented[1] condition is that your #program must not be in section D. I can't remember what else there is. # #imc # #[1] It probably is documented somewhere and I just haven't seen it. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 12:06:51 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:59:17 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611281159.AA05663@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: 51 FPC Error, ARGH!!!! X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 166 Lines: 6 > Can anyone actually point to a page in the tech manual telling me that you > can't use block D for FPCs....???? Actually, it's in the ROM disassembly. :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 12:09:40 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:03:38 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611281203.AA05691@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 359 Lines: 9 > 4) known bugs (code to demo the bug if poss - and a solution if you have it) I have experineced some _very_ strange bugs when the program gets large. If some kind of structure (I think it was a loop structure) wraps around the 16K limit it fails (or continues execution) in a very strange way. I had to add dummy code lines to avoid this problem. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 12:13:29 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611281208.MAA21114@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS magic TAB & CLI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:08:49 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1041 Lines: 28 >SUMMARY... >TAB will 'type' a " character at the end if it can complete the filename. >F7 changed to LOAD " There is no real need to replace the 'LOAD "hello"' syntax and replace it with funny '*hello' type constructs anyway! Only us hacker types will ever need or want to use the CLI anyway if the GUI is good enough. What extra do we need to type if we keep it and just change the F7 key? Beeb?: *Hello Us?: Hello" WOW! 1 extra symbol! I thought we were trying to make it more consistant. How much more consistent than the old way can you get? inproved, more efficient MasterBASIC and CLI should be one in the same. completely irrelevent point... I was sitting in the sixthform common room a number of years ago, reading a (format I think) advert for MasterBasic and started to get lots of strange looks from the people around me. It was only later that I realised they where doing this because somone had missread the 2nd word of the adverts title. Lets pay more attention to the names of our products in future please! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 12:39:23 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:32:04 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1093 Lines: 28 > improved, more efficient MasterBASIC and CLI should be one in the same. Directories. This is something that MDos introduced but was a pain in the arse, having to type commands like DIR="/PROGS/C" and even worse DIR="/". A CLI would allow for more power in navigating directories and free it from the clutter of the BASIC syntax. A recurrent theme on this topic is the Arch/Beeb and it's * commands. The Arch's OSCLI (Operating System Command Line Interface) was a top idea and a simple *BASIC would take you to Basic, *DESKTOP would take you to the GUI and *DIR would get a directory. Surely it would be easier to make a stable OS if you concentrate on making the CLI robust and have an additional programs (such as a BASIC) load *on top* of it instead of being part of it. It's time for the OS to get a divorce from BASIC. Dan. +==========================+---------------------------------+ | Dan Doore | dooredj@parliament.uk | | HOC SOC & TOP POD | House of Commons Library | +==========================+---------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 12:44:35 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:39:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: More errors In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1170 Lines: 34 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, A.S. Collier wrote: > On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, JohnnaPig Teare wrote: > > > > While we're on the subject, has anybody worked out how to display SamDOS > > > error code 110? > > > > > > I won't spoil the fun by telling you what it is, but you can see it > > > 'artificially' by typing POKE 16384,207,110:CALL 16384 Do it without SAMDOS loaded and you get:- 110 Invalid C Errmmm... I thought the default language was BASIC.. Or is this error made in anticipation for a C langauge to be included in the ROM.. I've never tried using C syntax in my BASIC programs.. 10 int main{printf("I'm brilliant...honest!"); return 0;} Perhaps the ROMs hold an encrypted C language that resembles BASIC and you need to decrypt it to run C.. Anyone know the key? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 12:48:39 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:46:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: 51 FPC Error, ARGH!!!! In-Reply-To: <9611281154.AA04791@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1028 Lines: 26 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On the other hand you needn't have bothered, because if you look in the > archives [http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/users/ian.collier/Misc/sam-users/] > you will discover that I wrote on 22 November 1996: [snip] Oh blast... effing poopoo... I should read my mail properly... Then again, because we get so much, I should be blameless for missing out extremely important peices of info that I asked for... *sigh* I could've saved so much heartache... (And people wonder why I haven't volanteered to do anything for SAMson yet... I'm just refinding my feet in SAM-land...) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From imc Thu Nov 28 12:49:29 1996 Subject: Re: More errors To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:49:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 28, 96 12:39:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 812 Lines: 25 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:39:58 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > Do it without SAMDOS loaded and you get:- > 110 Invalid C > I thought the default language was BASIC.. Or is this error made in > anticipation for a C langauge to be included in the ROM.. > > I've never tried using C syntax in my BASIC programs.. > > 10 int main{printf("I'm brilliant...honest!"); return 0;} The Spectrum already caters for this, but unfortunately the ability was lost on the Sam. Until now, that is... If on the Spectrum you manage to type that in and run it (the best way is to run the command INPUT LINE A$:PRINT VAL A$) then you will get C Nonsense in BASIC. (Curiously, I read in comp.sys.sinclair that someone typed 10 PRINT "hello";:GOTO 10 into their C compiler and got the message "BASIC Nonsense in C"). imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 12:50:25 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:47:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: 51 FPC Error, ARGH!!!! In-Reply-To: <9611281159.AA05663@asmal.edh-net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 742 Lines: 17 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Frode Tenneboe wrote: > > Can anyone actually point to a page in the tech manual telling me that you > > can't use block D for FPCs....???? > > Actually, it's in the ROM disassembly. :) I've only got the parts that were included on the SAM Newsdisks... And it's been 3 and a half years since I read them/programmed my SAM! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 12:55:01 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:50:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1182 Lines: 32 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Dan Doore wrote: > > improved, more efficient MasterBASIC and CLI should be one in the same. > > Directories. > > This is something that MDos introduced but was a pain in the arse, having to > type commands like DIR="/PROGS/C" and even worse DIR="/". Well, at least it uses forward slashes instead of backward ones... That's a plus! :) > A CLI would allow for more power in navigating directories and free it from > the clutter of the BASIC syntax. [little snip there] > Surely it would be easier to make a stable OS if you concentrate on making the CLI > robust and have an additional programs (such as a BASIC) load *on top* of it instead > of being part of it. > > It's time for the OS to get a divorce from BASIC. I've said something like this before.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 13:53:06 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961128134820.008ef630@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:48:20 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 720 Lines: 19 At 12:50 PM 11/28/96 +0000, you wrote: >> This is something that MDos introduced but was a pain in the arse, having to >> type commands like DIR="/PROGS/C" and even worse DIR="/". > >Well, at least it uses forward slashes instead of backward ones... That's a >plus! :) Akcherly, it's optional which ones you use :) (which is something I think we should keep, but recommend people use the unix version for compatibility with the WWW... something to keep in mind for the future) Another point: we should remap the "INV" key so that it primarily produces the backslash (\) and its secondary function is the INV mapping. BTW: I've got a new key routine I'm working on... lets you use the EDIT key as a meta key. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 14:08:15 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: roms & srams To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:02:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961128134820.008ef630@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Nov 28, 96 01:48:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 11 Actually, I've been thinking about this SRAM and ROM business. Could we develop the os so it is as nice as the BBC way of doing things? If I type *dump and 'dump' isn't one of the standard OS calls, then the BBC searches the expansion ROMs for it. I also like the ideas of ROMS - OK, they're not easily programmable by the user, but you could buy screendump roms, monitor roms etc. and you wouldn't have to worry about eating up your expensive SRAM. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 14:23:47 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:22:37 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: roms & srams Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2D55FFE7B1F@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 931 Lines: 23 > Actually, I've been thinking about this SRAM and ROM > business. Could we develop the os so it is as nice > as the BBC way of doing things? If I type *dump and > 'dump' isn't one of the standard OS calls, then the > BBC searches the expansion ROMs for it. I also > like the ideas of ROMS - OK, they're not easily programmable > by the user, but you could buy screendump roms, > monitor roms etc. and you wouldn't have to worry > about eating up your expensive SRAM. But we're trying to make this computer 'undaunting' for the novice... "Further capabilities, such as being able to dump the screen to the printer are available by buying an new ROM. To fit this, open up your computer and....." At this point any computer novice is going to go "Okay.. Goodbye.. What's this PC thing in the next shop window..?" -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 15:17:04 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:12:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@euler.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Programmers cheer - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1022 Lines: 26 On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Dan Doore wrote: > > I thought the programmers cheer was: > > > > Shift it to the left. > > Shift it to the right. > > Push in, Pop out. > > Byte, byte, byte! > > It sounds like something but it has *nothing* to do with programming :O Well, I do have more interests than just programming... My lecturers keep on about reusabilty of stuff... so I use the cheer for other things... :) > You have far too much time on your hands, do some work matey :) Fancy doing some of my assignments? :) I've got far more interesting things to concentrate like SMIDIP, Arcturus and that nice lass down the road.. :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 16:22:01 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:39:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@euler.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: Sequencer + SCADS Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1504 Lines: 36 MIDI ---- Any other MIDI users out there? I'm thinking of getting (In fact, I know I want to get) the SAM MIDI Sequencer thingy out there. (By Persona?) I want to ask a few questions about it: 1) Price (I heard it's about 15 quid(?)) 2) What stuff can you do with it? (Event-wise / Quantasising / Channel and control remapping / etc. How easy it is to edit notes / drums etc?) 3) How does it compare with the likes of Cakewalk and Cubase (considering that I've seen and like these) ad so called "cheap and farly cheerful" shareware products for the PC? 4) Any reviews? (biased / unbiased / preferably both) SCADS ----- I finally got around to downloading the SCADS system from nvg. Now... Where the hell can I get the manual from it? Or at least the command list and a quick overview of how to use the main program... I've got an idea of making the sequel to Xenoziods (which I'm going to put on my Web site when I've set it up and fixed the small bug which doesn't like the 512K SAM - It was programmed before I upgraded but it didn't get tested with the upgrade before the other week back.) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 16:53:48 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:50:34 GMT Message-Id: <199611281650.QAA11083@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 688 Lines: 19 On Nov 28, 1996 12:08:49, 'Stephen Harding ' wrote: >completely irrelevent point... >I was sitting in the sixthform common room a number of years ago, reading >a (format I think) advert for MasterBasic and started to get lots of >strange looks from the people around me. It was only later that I >realised they where doing this because somone had missread the 2nd >word of the adverts title. > >Lets pay more attention to the names of our products in future please! >Numb. -- HeHeHe, loved that one. But you know, it would be fun to come up with names that cause people to look twice. The second look may be the one that converts them. Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 16:54:03 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:50:31 GMT Message-Id: <199611281650.QAA11079@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 803 Lines: 30 On Nov 28, 1996 06:12:04, 'BrenchleyR@aol.com' wrote: >1) features they like/use most Too many to go through. > >2) features the dislike Confusion if you mis-type a normal command so it thinks you are using a proc. Confusion with short and long IFs. Need to use CSIZE 8,8 all the time - who thought up 8,9 anyway? Fact that RUN does not reset everything it should. > >3) any new command you would like to see (with example if needed) RESET - like clear but closes all open screens, resets pallette, restores many of the default system variables and a few more things. PUSH - to match POP. FROM - function to tell you the line of the last gosub or procedure call. MONEY - prints out purfect copies of 20 pound notes if you have a colour printer attached. -- Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 16:55:24 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:52:01 GMT Message-Id: <199611281652.QAA11098@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sequencer + SCADS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: SAM users list X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 330 Lines: 14 On Nov 28, 1996 15:39:48, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >I finally got around to downloading the SCADS system from nvg. Now... Where >the >hell can I get the manual from it? Or at least the command list and a quick >overview of how to use the main program... -- >From either FORMAT or SAM PD Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 17:04:14 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: roms & srams To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:01:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2D55FFE7B1F@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Nov 28, 96 02:22:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 213 Lines: 8 > But we're trying to make this computer 'undaunting' for the > novice... > Are we? I'd have thought they'd buy macs. If we want to make it undaunting for the nivice programmer, then we're already way ahead... From imc Thu Nov 28 17:32:43 1996 Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:32:43 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611281650.QAA11079@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Nov 28, 96 04:50:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1427 Lines: 42 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:50:31 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: > >2) features the dislike > Confusion if you mis-type a normal command so it thinks you are using a > proc. True. > Need to use CSIZE 8,8 all the time - who thought up 8,9 anyway? I agree. Mode 1 fixes it though. :-) A related point is that the origin for graphics and the number of rows on the screen changes every time you change the CSIZE. > >3) any new command you would like to see (with example if needed) > RESET - like clear but closes all open screens, resets pallette, restores > many of the default system variables and a few more things. Well I believe there's a CLOSE# command to close screens and CLS# resets the palette. What does CLEAR# do? Have I invented too many # commands? :-) > PUSH - to match POP. What for? > FROM - function to tell you the line of the last gosub or procedure call. Hmm, possibly, although of doubtful use. > MONEY - prints out purfect copies of 20 pound notes if you have a colour > printer attached. Only if you have a double-sided printer, obviously. How about: ON ERROR which doesn't stop when you press the escape key because the escape key is still down when it reaches its target (I solved this with a hack "mygoto" function but it wasn't nice). Also, "ON ERROR GOTO" currently potentially leaves the BASIC stack in a mess if you were calling a procedure when the error happened. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 18:14:59 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:12:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sequencer + SCADS In-Reply-To: <199611281652.QAA11098@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 718 Lines: 21 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >I finally got around to downloading the SCADS system from nvg. Now... > Where > >the > >hell can I get the manual from it? Or at least the command list and a > quick > >overview of how to use the main program... > -- > > From either FORMAT or SAM PD Price? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 18:23:30 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:22:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. In-Reply-To: <199611281650.QAA11079@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 595 Lines: 13 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > Need to use CSIZE 8,8 all the time - who thought up 8,9 anyway? I find using Csize 8,9 in mode 3 easier to read than 8,8 or especially 6,8... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 19:20:47 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:18:10 GMT Message-Id: <199611281918.TAA15677@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Sequencer + SCADS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 968 Lines: 35 On Nov 28, 1996 18:12:38, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >> >I finally got around to downloading the SCADS system from nvg. Now... >> Where >> >the >> >hell can I get the manual from it? Or at least the command list and a >> quick >> >overview of how to use the main program... >> -- >> >> From either FORMAT or SAM PD > >Price? > Dunno, ask Mr Bob. Oh wait, yep got it, its on the Revelation advert as well, 12.95 including p&p Hope that helps >-- >============================================================================= >|Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | >|BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | >|De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | >============================================================================= > -- Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 19:42:17 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:40:26 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961128144024_1218777219@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 514 Lines: 17 In a message dated 28/11/96 12:35:02, you write: >Surely it would be easier to make a stable OS if you concentrate on making >the CLI >robust and have an additional programs (such as a BASIC) load *on top* of it >instead >of being part of it. > >It's time for the OS to get a divorce from BASIC. > >Dan A point, but it would make Basic slower. I think the big advantage of the Spectrum and SAM are that their Basics are powerful enough to be usable - to hide that behind a CLI would be a mistake I think. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 21:43:39 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:40:09 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: sram 2 To: sam users Message-Id: <199611281640_MC1-C78-8B29@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 762 Lines: 20 I have uploaded three files to the ftp site (currently in incomming) they are sram2eps.zip, sram2pcx.zip and sram2tif.zip. Obviously they are zip files each containing three pages in pcx, eps and tiff formats The first two pages are the schematics and the third is a description. The program I used to draw only saves files in two formats: it's own internal and PCX I then used paint shop pro to convert to eps and tiff. I hope they are legible so you can see all the errors I have made. If you do see any flaws please let me know as I am ordering the parts to start breadboarding one this weekend. I decided in the end that you have to write to external ram (aka 1Meg) to write to the sram. This will most likely scribble all over the 1Meg. Tough :-( Nev From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 22:48:34 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:48:43 GMT Subject: FTP site *sigh* Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <1E63D953EBE@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 469 Lines: 10 I still can't get Teledisk to work! A while back I couldn't even get the thing to transfer anything to the floppy - turned out this wasn't my fault (or so I've been informed) for a few reasons, mainly cos the program version was so old. Anyway, I tried again tonight and now I have a file called "|samspec" on the floppy disk. Is this right??! What do I do with it now?!? Could someone please mail me in excrutiating detail, how to work this thing!! Please!!! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Nov 28 23:27:19 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:06:14 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. To: sam users Message-Id: <199611281806_MC1-C85-FAE3@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1985 Lines: 78 On Nov 28, 1996 06:12:04, 'BrenchleyR@aol.com' wrote: >Could I please have some short(ish) comments on SAM >Basic/MasterDOS/MasterBasic. >What I want is for people to list:- > >1) features they like/use most > (use) the on off switch (use) the reset button (use&like) command line history but it has a bug see below. >2) features they dislike > wish the screen blank flag was set the other way round. having half the ROM in bank D. Would have preferred it if it was all in bank A. (oh look we can do that with the sram mem) not being able to specify the page to be used when INT or NMI happen. bouncy NMI 32K pages the crap way of passing control from rom to dos to anyother the severe lack of documentation documentation that lies non prioritised INT using INT mode 1 scope of local vars exceeds the procedure in which they are declared the keyboard breaks if you park a car on it >3) any new command you would like to see (with example if needed) > like to be able to move ramtop without having to clear. After all there is nothing below ramtop as the stack is now < 16384. >4) known bugs (code to demo the bug if poss - and a solution if you have it) > History /bug/ enter command 1 enter command 2 get command 1 from history command 2 is lost. global vars passed to proc by ref are out of scope within the proc: 10 DEFPROC MYPROC REF MYVAR 20 PRINT MYVAR 30 PRINT MYPARAM 40 ENDPROC 50 LET MYPARAM = 10 60 MYPROC MYPARAM >This is to help me prepare a draft of changes to make when the ROM/DOS get >merged. >I would also like to hear from anyone who considers that they have a good >working knowledge of the ROM and/or MasterDOS. > >Look forward to the usual flood of replies. > >Bob. ps for 2 I see some don't like it when sam looks for a procedure when you mistype a command. BUT others are asking that if a command is not found then look for it on disk. LET A=0 PRNT A 107 File PRNT not found. (or even worse it is found!) It's late and I'm tired. {-:-} Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 07:47:04 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 08:44:35 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611290744.AA06461@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: sram 2 X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 66 Lines: 5 Mygawd....the size of those files.... Moved into ./docs -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 08:04:47 1996 Message-Id: <9611290758.AA0576@worldcom-47.worldcom.com> To: sam-users From: Stefan Drissen Date: 28 Nov 96 19:28:53 Subject: Re: .wav files Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2266 Lines: 67 >Any chance of a SAM wav player? Or even a .ra (RealAudio) player? It already exists. Martijn Groen wrote one - problem is that it needs to turn the screen off and the samples aren't played back at exactly the right speed. I cobbled one together which simple uses the burstplayer code (as used in the SAM MOD player) which has the restriction that it doesn't make the most of the SAM and only playsback at 10.4khz (but at the correct speed). And it also has the side effect that you got lots of pretty colours on the screen (since it was still in test mode). However - I'm getting pretty much into finally getting my multi-purpose sample player done. I've only left it lying around for about 9 months (Matt Round should be able to confirm that). At the time I said it would take me a few weeks to do (so be warned when I say it will now still take me a few weeks to do). It allows the following devices to be used for output (just like the SAM MOD player): - CLUT (colour look up table for the illiterate) - soundchip (4 bits stereo) - SAMdac (8 bits stereo or 7 bits stereo) - Printerdac (7 bits mono or 6 bits mono) - Blue Alpha Sampler (7 bits mono or 6 bits mono) - Quazar (8 bits stereo) Playback is at either 15.6khz or 7.8 khz. You can play back two channels at both resolutions and four channels at 7.8khz. Enough of this nonsense - back to coding.... Stefan. **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 08:08:22 1996 Message-Id: <9611290801.AA0601@worldcom-47.worldcom.com> To: Mr P R Walker Cc: sam-users From: Stefan Drissen Date: 28 Nov 96 19:36:17 Subject: Re: SOS Hard Drives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2386 Lines: 63 >> 60UKP???? You have got to be joking! That's the price that the SD Software >> one is going for. If you look at just the components of the interface you'll > >Well, yes. This is what I based the estimate on, seeing as I >a) don't know what's in the interface >b) couldn't understand it anyway >c) have no idea how much any of them cost. This is the reply to Nev's order of components since I can't find his email back all too quickly wading through all this stuff. My component price is based on Edwin Blink's internal harddrive design - I believe he managed to scrap some of the unnecessary chips and replace them with something else. His design connects to the second floppy disc connector INSIDE your SAM and is running very nicely. He is up and writing a DOS now (in MC obviously) and is making it interface with basic properly from square one. The DOS will also have an improved file structure for floppies et al. Simon did say AAARRRGH a few times but the big advantage is the speed - which considering the speed of the SAM with harddrives (no DMA :( ) is very neccessary. >> Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim >They're doing a lecture at university sometime - you should ask if you can >be the one to give it ;) Yeah great! An all expenses paid trip to England - if I could get one arranged round abouts a Gloucester show.... (hmmm, maybe I need to get some more work experience first though, along with a somewhat more senior position...). What's the lecture about BTW? **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 08:08:31 1996 Message-Id: <9611290801.AA0603@worldcom-47.worldcom.com> To: sam-users From: Stefan Drissen Date: 28 Nov 96 19:23:27 Subject: Re: E-Tracker music - Reply - Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2384 Lines: 77 Typical, I just reply to the previous message about the conversion stuff and then find that there's already an updated reply reply thing (if you know what I mean). >Shouldn't be too hard, I imagine, Stefan's the converter man, >he can do it ;) If he had the time he could (no sweat). But since Andrew's already immersed himself into the structure of Protracker 2 mods (and I haven't) I'll leave it to him. >heh heh heh That sounds like a very evil and devious laugh indeed Dan! Are you trying to get some competition going here so that at least someone will do something to get you a convertor??? ;) >Chip MODS are (AFAIK) MODS that don't use samples but simple >waveforms, there was a wave editor built into Protracker 3.1b >as I recall. It's a bit like E-Tracker instruments I imagine, >so it should be possible to do a straight conversion. I think that's right. I would have put it as such: mods which have really really crap samples (waveforms) with just one advantage - they take up hardly any disc space (that is the /ONLY/ advantage). >Stefan's the MOD man, he can do it :))) > >HEH HEH HEH Evil laugh again - no I will NOT do it! :) >Seriously though, Mr Dirssen must be the man to talk >to for this sort of stuff. Once again - check out the docs on FRED 52 Andrew - I'm not sure if I ever put the D-Compiler up on nvg or not... >Right, I've got a home to go to, seeya. Does it include falling down steps and stuff??? ;) >Dan. [Dan's ridiculously large sig snipped] ;) **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 08:08:45 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:06:45 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611290806.AA06497@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: FTP site *sigh* X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 869 Lines: 20 > > I still can't get Teledisk to work! A while back I couldn't even get > the thing to transfer anything to the floppy - turned out this wasn't > my fault (or so I've been informed) for a few reasons, mainly cos the > program version was so old. > > Anyway, I tried again tonight and now I have a file called "|samspec" > on the floppy disk. Is this right??! What do I do with it now?!? > > Could someone please mail me in excrutiating detail, how to work this > thing!! Please!!! It is really a piece of pie. First, get the latest version of teledisk (2.12 I think). Then get any *.td0 file, fire up teledisk (after first unziping the archive - save the archive as you are only allowed to do 15 or 20 transfers with the unregistered version), wait til you get to the menu select 'image to disc', select correct image, insert disc and away you go. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 08:09:06 1996 Message-Id: <9611290801.AA0605@worldcom-47.worldcom.com> To: sam-users From: Stefan Drissen Date: 28 Nov 96 19:17:23 Subject: Re: E-Tracker music - Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2597 Lines: 77 >On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Dan Doore wrote: >> Will it allow you to: >> >> 1. Load old Etracker .M files > >Er, no - but a convertor shouldn't be too hard. If anybody knows anthing >about the E-Tracker format I'll look into it. (I know the ProTracker >format, having spent time hacking some test files to bits in order to >write the compiler) Check out the D-Compiler on FRED ... um *rummaging through discs* 52. It's got some docs explaining the format of E-tracker modules. >> 2. Convert MOD patterns to Sam Protracker (I >> understand they use the same format, so would 'chip' >> tunes convert straight across?) > >Yes. Samples aren't converted (surprise), I've never heard of a chip mod >file, so that may or may not be okay. Again you need a converter program, >but that is on the disk. The formats can't be exactly the same, since Sam >Protracker uses 6 channels, wheras mods (AFAIK) only 4. True. The conversion is pretty true (of so it seems). >It is true that all the commands are the same, ie a portamento in a MOD >means portamento in ProTracker. But... Protracker 2 (SAM) uses a different scale to do portamento's than Protracker (Amiga). I presume that SAM's protracker does portamento's lineairly, whereas the Amiga definitely does them logarithmically (? ie works with periods -> to get a pitch twice as high you need to halve the period). >> If so, I'll be raiding ftp.luth.se for chip MODS and >> raiding the E-tunes (via the de-compiler) from Fred :) Check out ftp.funet.fi (these should be some great stuff there too!). >> This also means I will buy it, not that I'm musically >> minded you understand. :) You are really, just not in a creative sense.. :) >> Dan. > > >Andrew Stefan. **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 10:30:25 1996 Message-Id: <329EB9C2.41C6@math.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:24:02 +0100 From: Slawomir Grodkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.0 alpha) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Gif Converter source References: <1.5.4.32.19961128100243.008fde48@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 356 Lines: 16 Simon Cooke wrote: > > At 09:28 AM 11/28/96 +0100, you wrote: > >I have my own gif->sam converter , and it dont need to load first the > >gif-file to the memory . THis convert the gif-file direct from disk to > >memory .... > > Put it on ftp.nvg.unit.no!!! > > Simon Sorry , I can't do it :-((( This will be a part of my Comm'ix package ... Slawek. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 10:30:27 1996 Message-Id: <329EB9F6.167E@math.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:24:54 +0100 From: Slawomir Grodkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.0 alpha) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: .wav files - Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 440 Lines: 18 Dan Doore wrote: > > > Martijn Groen has already a waveplayer, but it works > > with Samdac only, plays 8-bit waves at 11025, 22050 > > and 44100 Hz, mono and stereo. The wav-files can be > > up to 496k long, and his player can load from Samdos and > > MSdos disks. Its is not bug-free and idiotproof but it works. > > Can this be uploaded to NVG anyway? > > Slawek - Can you upload yours as well? At monday , ok. ? Slawek. > > Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 10:37:31 1996 Message-Id: <329EBC22.2781@math.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:34:10 +0100 From: Slawomir Grodkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.0 alpha) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. References: <961128061202_1352829752@emout11.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 769 Lines: 31 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > > Could I please have some short(ish) comments on SAM > Basic/MasterDOS/MasterBasic. > What I want is for people to list:- > > 1) features they like/use most I love SamBasic ;-)) > > 2) features the dislike I hate MasterBasic .... > > 3) any new command you would like to see (with example if needed) blitz for all commands ... a 'RESERVE' command for system cheap ... > > 4) known bugs (code to demo the bug if poss - and a solution if you have it) > > This is to help me prepare a draft of changes to make when the ROM/DOS get > merged. > I would also like to hear from anyone who considers that they have a good > working knowledge of the ROM and/or MasterDOS. > > Look forward to the usual flood of replies. > > Bob. Slawek. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 11:08:15 1996 Message-Id: <329EC35D.446B@math.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:05:01 +0100 From: Slawomir Grodkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.0 alpha) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS Hard Drives References: <9611290801.AA0601@worldcom-47.worldcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1242 Lines: 33 Stefan Drissen wrote: > > >> 60UKP???? You have got to be joking! That's the price that the SD Software > >> one is going for. If you look at just the components of the interface you'll > > > >Well, yes. This is what I based the estimate on, seeing as I > >a) don't know what's in the interface > >b) couldn't understand it anyway > >c) have no idea how much any of them cost. > > This is the reply to Nev's order of components since I can't find his email > back all too > quickly wading through all this stuff. My component price is based on Edwin > Blink's > internal harddrive design - I believe he managed to scrap some of the > unnecessary > chips and replace them with something else. His design connects to the second > floppy disc connector INSIDE your SAM and is running very nicely. He is up and When You have the circuit for it , can You upload it to nvg ... Slawek. > writing a DOS now (in MC obviously) and is making it interface with basic > properly > from square one. The DOS will also have an improved file structure for > floppies et al. > Simon did say AAARRRGH a few times but the big advantage is the speed - which > considering the speed of the SAM with harddrives (no DMA :( ) is very > neccessary. > > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 11:37:26 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961129113602.008de9c0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:36:02 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS Hard Drives Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 496 Lines: 13 At 12:05 PM 11/29/96 +0100, you wrote: >> from square one. The DOS will also have an improved file structure for >> floppies et al. >> Simon did say AAARRRGH a few times but the big advantage is the speed - which >> considering the speed of the SAM with harddrives (no DMA :( ) is very >> neccessary. I've had a think about it since... what Edwin's proposing is actually very like the HPFS system... all he needs it to implement the B-Tree stuff so that the file areas are resizable... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 12:03:14 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: sram 2 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:58:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611281640_MC1-C78-8B29@compuserve.com> from "Neville Young" at Nov 28, 96 04:40:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 124 Lines: 5 Arrrggh! 21 meg when uncompressed! I will have to wait until the system is a little quieter befor I can view them! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 12:05:16 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:06:07 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: roms & srams Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2EB1A2F5A5F@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 496 Lines: 16 > > But we're trying to make this computer 'undaunting' for the > > novice... > > > > Are we? I'd have thought they'd buy macs. If we want to > make it undaunting for the nivice programmer, then > we're already way ahead... Maybe I should have said undaunting for the man on the street. That is why we are talking about WYSIWIG word processors and proportional fonts, is it not? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 12:25:05 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611291220.MAA26259@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:20:56 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2752 Lines: 67 As I understand it, we are leaning away from the (brilliant) idea to use SAMSONbasic as the CLI on the basis that the syntax we would then be forced to use would be unpleasant. But we must also remember that we want the machine to have the option of being sold as a network machine, supporting lots of thoes ugly protocols the www, E-mail, ftp etc. demend. We could chose not to include these protocols within a level below the GUI applications. This would mean that each of these applications would have to include all of the code to implement these protocols themselfs. Allthough this would make designing level 2 much easier, it would result in the duplication of the protocol code even before the release date. It would make most sence to write these protocol drivers into the Basic/DOS level, in much the same way that DOS is. So level 2 would comprise of i,SAMSONbasic ii,SuperConsistantDOS and iii,brandnewNOS (Network Operating System) We want a machine that is fun to program. How can it be fun to program if every single application that wants to use the network has to cope with the hideous protocols used in networking? I do realise just how hard it would be for us to write a comprehensive NOS. It would probably be the hardest part of the software we would have to do, we would all have to melt our brains over it, but such work would have to be done sooner or later, and if we are talking of finishing a web viewer, terminal and ftp software for release with the machine so this work will have to be done (several times over) anyway. Wouldn't it be nice to, from SAMSON basic, to type... MODE "gif" LET addr=SCRLOCATION CONNECT "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no" DIR ="/pub/spectrun/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" LOAD "sim0883.gif" code addr even if this is a bit long winded, it is much simpler than the PC etc. equivilants. It would not be very nice if we included Basic, DOS and NOS as different operating systems at the same level as it would be messy to save a file from the network to a (hard)disk and vice versa. We would have to go via memory. DOS and NOS should be in the same place & have the same syntax, obviously both will also need extra synax that the other won't, e.g. FORMAT and CONNECT. But this 2 way split Basic/(DOS&NOS) would mean that it is hard to run programs and use the data that is stored. This is the whole point of having it in the first place! I have to stick with the unified Basic, DOS and (hopfully) NOS ideal. I must admit never understanding the point in a raw DOS without any programming language around it (as found on TRCs for example). The whole point of having the data in the first place is to COMPUTE with and on it. Why access it from an environment that can not compute? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 13:00:52 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:00:02 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <2EC00BE6FA2@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 550 Lines: 14 > A point, but it would make Basic slower. I think the big advantage of the > Spectrum and SAM are that their Basics are powerful enough to be usable - to > hide that behind a CLI would be a mistake I think. > > Bob. I agree, by all means, release C compilers and things that run on top, but stick the BASIC in the ROM! It's one of the great things about the SAM, you can switch on, and with no software to load, can start programming. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 13:12:03 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:08:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@harrier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply In-Reply-To: <2EC00BE6FA2@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1432 Lines: 31 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, James R Curry wrote: > I agree, by all means, release C compilers and things that run on > top, but stick the BASIC in the ROM! It's one of the great things > about the SAM, you can switch on, and with no software to load, > can start programming. I agree... CLI loads up at startup from rom... type 'basic' and the CLI with all the unix/dos style commands get paged out and the BASIC rom gets paged in and then you're automatically in SAMBasic with the LOAD "a:blah.bas" et al. I've been having a look at SCADS and since the code is supposed to be PD, can't we include the supervisor (or something like it) part into SAMBasic. We could sell the designer part seperately.. That way, the user can make really cute and simple games for nearly no cost and in next to no time... You can't do that with PCs and Amigas.. :) (Sorry if this is a mess, but I'm using a new text-based (rather than x-windows based) text editor that I can use from both PCs (through a rlogin window) and Unix workstations.. :) ) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 13:36:41 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611291335.NAA26740@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:35:29 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 565 Lines: 15 > I agree, by all means, release C compilers and things that run on > top, but stick the BASIC in the ROM! It's one of the great things > about the SAM, you can switch on, and with no software to load, > can start programming. This is what most of us have assumed since the beginning. We also to put the GUI and the text editor on the 'ROM' (or writable equivilant). The question is how much else can we fit? If vital utilities are not on board, a hard driveless SAMSON would be very annoying. It would be less annoying if we put them on a CD.... Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 13:41:14 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961129134101.008e7af0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:41:01 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2408 Lines: 69 At 12:20 PM 11/29/96 +0000, you wrote: >It would make most sence to write these protocol drivers into the >Basic/DOS level, in much the same way that DOS is. >So level 2 would comprise of > > i,SAMSONbasic > ii,SuperConsistantDOS > and iii,brandnewNOS (Network Operating System) That isn't the best way of doing it... the best way is (from highest level down) SAMBASIC / CLI / EXECUTABLE APPLICATION GUI (if APP is running under it) Disk Filing System Disk Access System / Network Access System BIOS [snip] >Wouldn't it be nice to, from SAMSON basic, to type... > >MODE "gif" >LET addr=SCRLOCATION > >CONNECT "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no" >DIR ="/pub/spectrun/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" >LOAD "sim0883.gif" code addr Ummmm.... not sure about that way of doing it... LET addr=SCRLOCATION OPENURL "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no/pub/spectrum/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" ... urgh... it's not a trivial matter to design this syntax. >even if this is a bit long winded, it is much simpler than the PC etc. >equivilants. Oh, I dunno... the java version is nice... >It would not be very nice if we included Basic, DOS and NOS as different >operating systems at the same level as it would be messy to save a file >from the network to a (hard)disk and vice versa. We would have to go via >memory. >DOS and NOS should be in the same place & have the same syntax, >obviously both will also need extra synax that the other won't, e.g. >FORMAT and CONNECT. > >But this 2 way split Basic/(DOS&NOS) would mean that it is hard to run >programs and use the data that is stored. This is the whole point of >having it in the first place! >I have to stick with the unified Basic, DOS and (hopfully) NOS ideal. But that's the problem with the existing system!!! Ask yourself why so many SAM programmers drop into BASIC OR write their own DOS's? >I must admit never understanding the point in a raw DOS without any >programming language around it (as found on TRCs for example). The whole >point of having the data in the first place is to COMPUTE with and on it. >Why access it from an environment that can not compute? It's not a total divorce -- it's just that there is a defined interface that can be used to access the data. At the moment, that interface is defined -- but the *good* stuff (file handling) seems to be all at the BASIC level, where there's no interface to it outside of writing a BASIC program. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 14:42:01 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: roms & srams To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:34:08 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <2EB1A2F5A5F@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Nov 29, 96 12:06:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 550 Lines: 16 > Maybe I should have said undaunting for the man on the street. That > is why we are talking about WYSIWIG word processors and proportional > fonts, is it not? > I'm not daunted by computers, but that doesn't mean I want crappy wordprocessors, and want to use a CLI all the time. I thought the main reason for wysiwyg wps and proportional fonts is because *we* want them. If we worry too much about what the man in the street wants then we're going to get nowhere - because there's no way that the SAM can give them what they expect. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 14:54:08 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:43:40 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9611291443.AA06643@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1205 Lines: 52 Not such a good idea, I'm affraid. This means that even if you just want to run a small non-GUI application, you have to have the whole GUI, both CPU and RAM wise, somewhere in there.... > SAMBASIC / CLI / EXECUTABLE APPLICATION > GUI (if APP is running under it) A good idea. Then we can have shared over a network files pretty easy. > Disk Filing System Make it modular with drivers -> easy to add new file systems, storage devices, etc. > Disk Access System / Network Access System > BIOS > > [snip] > >Wouldn't it be nice to, from SAMSON basic, to type... > > > >MODE "gif" > >LET addr=SCRLOCATION > > > >CONNECT "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no" > >DIR ="/pub/spectrun/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" > >LOAD "sim0883.gif" code addr > > Ummmm.... not sure about that way of doing it... > > LET addr=SCRLOCATION > OPENURL "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no/pub/spectrum/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" > LET stream = OPEN "ftp://..../sim0883.gif" MOVE stream TO LOCATION or... OPEN "ftp://..../sim0883.gif" [AT LOCATION] It depends on how to interpret the other sources of input, eg. LOAD "d1:", LOAD "t:", LOAD "n1:" (?), OPEN #3, etc. > urgh... it's not a trivial matter to design this syntax. Nope.. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 15:40:25 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961129152103.008e2964@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:21:03 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1679 Lines: 56 At 03:43 PM 11/29/96 +0100, you wrote: >Status: RO > > >Not such a good idea, I'm affraid. This means that even if you just want >to run a small non-GUI application, you have to have the whole GUI, >both CPU and RAM wise, somewhere in there.... Actually, what I meant was that the GUI part was only in the layering scheme for things which used it :) [thus the "(if APP is running under it)" bit] The GUI's memory management scheme will have to be coherent with the rest of the system though -- so we could use that part for the rest as well, at the very least :) >> SAMBASIC / CLI / EXECUTABLE APPLICATION >> GUI (if APP is running under it) >A good idea. Then we can have shared over a network files pretty easy. > >> Disk Filing System *nods* I got it from the Linux VFS system, and also from my own foray into designing a DOS (mainly in the work I've been doing on the Termite system). >Make it modular with drivers -> easy to add new file systems, storage >devices, etc. > >> Disk Access System / Network Access System >> BIOS Yep... that's the problem we've got at the moment, and this is the way to fix it :) >It depends on how to interpret the other sources of input, eg. LOAD "d1:", >LOAD "t:", LOAD "n1:" (?), OPEN #3, etc. *nods* I'd prefer to use the following syntaxes: "n?:" -- network filing system "d?:/path/path1/path2" -- disk filing system "t:" -- tape -- but which type? Tape backup systems? "http://" -- get file from URL "ftp://" -- get file from FTP it's kind of consistent - at least in that it all has the same root parser. > >> urgh... it's not a trivial matter to design this syntax. > >Nope.. Nasty isn't it? :) Simon From imc Fri Nov 29 15:48:48 1996 Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:48:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961128144024_1218777219@emout14.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Nov 28, 96 02:40:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 228 Lines: 9 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:40:26 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > In a message dated 28/11/96 12:35:02, you write: > >It's time for the OS to get a divorce from BASIC. > A point, but it would make Basic slower. Says who?! imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 16:15:12 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:03:36 GMT From: D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk (D M Zambonini) Message-Id: <199611291603.QAA01292@peredur.cs.cf.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: 4g9C1DJ8spgqCIyCRcAEvQ== Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 589 Lines: 22 > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 15:57:58 1996 > Delivery-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:57:58 +0000 > From: Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk > Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:48:49 +0000 (GMT) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:40:26 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > > In a message dated 28/11/96 12:35:02, you write: > > >It's time for the OS to get a divorce from BASIC. > > > A point, but it would make Basic slower. > > Says who?! > > imc > Yeah, says who? :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 16:45:57 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611291644.QAA27934@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:44:13 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3880 Lines: 95 > >So level 2 would comprise of > > > > i,SAMSONbasic > > ii,SuperConsistantDOS > > and iii,brandnewNOS (Network Operating System) > > That isn't the best way of doing it... the best way is (from highest > level down) > > SAMBASIC / CLI / EXECUTABLE APPLICATION > GUI (if APP is running under it) > Disk Filing System > Disk Access System / Network Access System > BIOS I said what 'LEVEL 2' should (in my view) contain, not what the whole setup should look like! Written the other way up to yours... level0: BIOS (didn't think of that one last time I suggested this setup!) level1: Independent M_Code. level2: SAMSONbasic/CLI/NOS combined into one. level3: GUI (if in use) level4: GUI applications (if in use) In your design, there is no level at which REAL programs can run. We need a level where we can do whatever we want to memory and the processors, without the need to conform to the rules and regulations that GUI or CLI may impose. This Level 1 is where fast games and demos etc. should live. The GUI should be a fairly high level abstraction. Not a low one, this can only slow things down. Infact, there is no need for the GUI system to be 'loaded' at all if all you want to do it SAMbasic or low level stuff. It would just take up memory and needlessly withstrict you -we don't want another Mac! The GUI need not suffer from any reduction in speed from being on top of SAMSONbasic as it would simply use the DOS and NOS hook codes, not the basic syntax or parsing. Clearly There is little point in converting what it want to do into CLI syntax only for it to be parsed before being executed! True, It would be nice to run SAMSON basic in a window of the GUI in terms of file sharing and multitasking but Basic is not FOR multasking, and with the brilliant NOS functions living within SAMSONbasic file sharing would not be a proplem, even if there is any call for it. We don't realy want to run more than one Basic program at once. No, C should be the main programming language living on top of the GUI. The DOS and NOS hook codes should be designed to multi-thred with each other if at all possible, i.e. a hardrive write and an 'a:' drive write should be able to go on without disturbing each other or loosing each others place if possible. > >But this 2 way split Basic/(DOS&NOS) would mean that it is hard to run > >programs and use the data that is stored. This is the whole point of > >having it in the first place! > >I have to stick with the unified Basic, DOS and (hopfully) NOS ideal. >But that's the problem with the existing system!!! Ask yourself why so >many SAM programmers drop into BASIC OR write their own DOS's? I don't understand quite what is ment here, My point is that in the existing SAMbasic/DOS combination, the basic can USE the files that the DOS MANIPULATES without the need to swap into using what is in effect a different language (whether this is by opening another window or using strange shell commands). A raw DOS is a bit pointless and is only ever usefull to move arround files and subdirectories. IT DOES NOT ACTUALY DO ANYTHING! Basic does, it has POWER. There is little point in splitting the two. The GUI would have power because of its applications. You cannot write progams in a raw DOS. We drop into BASIC as the hook codes are quite frankly crap! We need to suggested the features of the advanced new ones. As the new SAMSONbasic/CLI all-in one is likely to live on the ROM (equilvilant) it will always be memory resident when in level 1 (or easy to expand into memory if we compress it) so the new hook codes can always be used. >but the *good* stuff (file handling) seems to be all at the BASIC level, >where there's no interface to it outside of writing a BASIC program. >Simon This is what hook codes are supposed to be for!!! harrier% ? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 17:06:41 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:57:56 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611291644.QAA27934@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Nov 29, 96 04:44:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 236 Lines: 8 Hmmm.... CLI on top of a bios. BASIC on top of a CLI. GUI on top of the CLI (or BASIC CLI). SOunds horribly PCish... can we not whittle things down to just one layer somehow? (Hierarchy is nice, but on a 6MHz 8-bit machine?!). -Andy From imc Fri Nov 29 17:17:18 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:17:18 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611291644.QAA27934@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Nov 29, 96 04:44:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1596 Lines: 33 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:44:13 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > True, It would be nice to run SAMSON basic in a window of the GUI in terms > of file sharing and multitasking but Basic is not FOR multasking, and > with the brilliant NOS functions living within SAMSONbasic file sharing > would not be a proplem, even if there is any call for it. We don't realy > want to run more than one Basic program at once. Says who? > I don't understand quite what is ment here, My point is that in the > existing SAMbasic/DOS combination, the basic can USE the files that the > DOS MANIPULATES without the need to swap into using what is in effect a > different language (whether this is by opening another window or using > strange shell commands). What's that in English? > A raw DOS is a bit pointless and is only ever > usefull to move arround files and subdirectories. IT DOES NOT ACTUALY DO > ANYTHING! Basic does, it has POWER. There is little point in splitting the > two. The GUI would have power because of its applications. You cannot > write progams in a raw DOS. A raw DOS operates the disk, as its name implies. It provides functions which can be called by machine code programs. The CLI and BASIC are programs which need disk access. Therefore they are implemented on top of DOS, calling DOS functions whenever they need access. A machine code program (which is called from the CLI or from the BASIC) does the same. DOS and BASIC are completely separate entities and should stay separate. This is, incidentally, much like how the +3 is programmed. imc From imc Fri Nov 29 17:18:07 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:18:07 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Nov 29, 96 04:57:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 240 Lines: 8 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:57:56 +0000 (GMT), Andrew M Gale said: > (Hierarchy is nice, but on a 6MHz > 8-bit machine?!). Hierarchy doesn't need to make it larger or slow it down. It does however make things simpler. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 17:27:47 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:25:52 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <9611291718.AA29799@booth10.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 491 Lines: 17 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:57:56 +0000 (GMT), Andrew M Gale said: > > (Hierarchy is nice, but on a 6MHz > > 8-bit machine?!). > > Hierarchy doesn't need to make it larger or slow it down. It does however > make things simpler. > > imc Also, the only reason we are discussing this at all is that SamSon will eventually have (something like) a Z380, which is not just 8-bit and is certainly not just 6MHz. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 18:03:47 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611291804.SAA28226@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS DOS&NOS syntax To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:04:55 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 987 Lines: 30 > >Wouldn't it be nice to, from SAMSON basic, to type... > > > >MODE "gif" > >LET addr=SCRLOCATION > >CONNECT "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no" > >DIR ="/pub/spectrun/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" > >LOAD "sim0883.gif" code addr > > Ummmm.... not sure about that way of doing it... > LET addr=SCRLOCATION > OPENURL "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no/pub/spectrum/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" > extending the logic of how your average DOS works, mine could ALSO be written as... MODE "gif" LET addr=SCRLOCATION CONNECT "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no/pub/spectrun/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" LOAD "sim0883.gif" code addr We want a number of ways to achieve the same thing Ya-know ;o) I (obviously) used the CONNECT command as opposed to the OPENURL one as my next SAMSONbasic line was going to be a loop to copy every single file from the directory to the hardrive. I wanted to stay connected to the site to save disconnecting and reconnecting for each individual picture (honist!) ;o) Numb. #6930 #6106 From imc Fri Nov 29 18:08:50 1996 Subject: Re: SOS DOS&NOS syntax To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:08:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199611291804.SAA28226@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Nov 29, 96 06:04:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 742 Lines: 17 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:04:55 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > MODE "gif" > LET addr=SCRLOCATION > CONNECT "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no/pub/spectrun/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" > LOAD "sim0883.gif" code addr > > We want a number of ways to achieve the same thing Ya-know ;o) > I (obviously) used the CONNECT command as opposed to the OPENURL one as my > next SAMSONbasic line was going to be a loop to copy every single file > from the directory to the hardrive. I wanted to stay connected to the site > to save disconnecting and reconnecting for each individual picture (honist!) This is a bit far fetched isn't it? Wouldn't it be better to leave this to a proper FTP client or web browser instead of incorporating it into the BASIC? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 18:14:35 1996 From: JohnnaPig Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:10:19 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <10D3B87130D@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 782 Lines: 17 Hello, > I've been having a look at SCADS and since the code is supposed to be PD, > can't we include the supervisor (or something like it) part into > SAMBasic. We could sell the designer part seperately.. That way, the user > can make really cute and simple games for nearly no cost and in next to > no time... You can't do that with PCs and Amigas.. :) > Sounds like a very good idea, although I personally think that SCADs might look a little basic on a higher grade machine. Perhaps we could get Glen Cook back in to do a little updating (the Speed of SCADs was always the biggest problem.) > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 18:31:55 1996 From: JohnnaPig Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:13:52 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <10D5424487D@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1318 Lines: 30 > > I agree, by all means, release C compilers and things that run on > > top, but stick the BASIC in the ROM! It's one of the great things > > about the SAM, you can switch on, and with no software to load, > > can start programming. > > This is what most of us have assumed since the beginning. > We also to put the GUI and the text editor on the 'ROM' (or > writable equivilant). > > The question is how much else can we fit? > If vital utilities are not on board, a hard driveless SAMSON would be very > annoying. Ever used a single drive 512k Amiga500? If you have a cut-down version of Workbench you need about four disk swaps just to copy something from one disk to the other - the first being to load the command 'COPY' into memory, and then to reinsert the orignal disk, and then copy the item. I know this isn't exactly similar to the problem stated, but it seems a bit stupid to go backwards (IMHO) by not having the BASIC there when you boot up. It is, as Bob has said previously, handy to be able to switch on and type PRINT 123*456 to get an answer if you need it quickly, rather than having to load the basic in first. > It would be less annoying if we put them on a CD.... > Numb. > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 18:40:10 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199611291840.SAA28305@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS 5 levels To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:40:48 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1502 Lines: 44 > Hmmm.... CLI on top of a bios. BASIC on top of a CLI. > GUI on top of the CLI (or BASIC CLI). The BASIC would only be on top of the CLI within the machine, the user need not have a DOS command prompt with its own syntax etc. But to the machine, I surpose the DOS/NOS would look like a level in its own right, composed of well chosen hook codes. > SOunds horribly PCish... I said well chosen hook codes! That is the point, although there are a number of levels, the higher levels are able to jump down to lower ones with a command to kill the higher level and run a command in the lower one. So the levels are not well defined. Level 1 (Real m_code programs) can be launched from level 2 (Basic) or level 3 (GUI) level 3 (GUI) can be launched from level 2 (Basic) and can drop back killing itself. >can we not whittle things down to just >one layer somehow? Have I been misleading? We are not refering to any strange, imaginary level structures. Your current SAM already has severel levels: A,Real M_code programs that can do whatever they want; B,SAMbasic and SAMDOS combined. and if you have driver... C,GUI D,GUI application(s). are there any apart from 'DRIVERmines'? I have not said anything new, we both just formalised SAMSONs structure as we see it. To avoid any misunderstandings. >(Hierarchy is nice, but on a 6MHz 8-bit machine?!). Hierarchy is not nice and could be annoying later on in life. It just simplfies the complexity into (more) manageable chunks. >-Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 19:11:04 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611291905.TAA10959@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS DOS&NOS syntax To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:05:14 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9611291808.AA00125@booth10.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Nov 29, 96 06:08:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1536 Lines: 36 > > On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:04:55 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > > MODE "gif" > > LET addr=SCRLOCATION > > CONNECT "ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no/pub/spectrun/pics/toons/sinclair simon/" > > LOAD "sim0883.gif" code addr > > > > We want a number of ways to achieve the same thing Ya-know ;o) > > I (obviously) used the CONNECT command as opposed to the OPENURL one as my > > next SAMSONbasic line was going to be a loop to copy every single file > > from the directory to the hardrive. I wanted to stay connected to the site > > to save disconnecting and reconnecting for each individual picture (honist!) > > This is a bit far fetched isn't it? Wouldn't it be better to leave this > to a proper FTP client or web browser instead of incorporating it into the > BASIC? > > imc Just a bit! The code to handle the protocols has got to live somewhere. It's complexity seems to be being underestimated. As there is likely to be a number of different applications that use the same networking protocols I figured it would make most sense to make a 'library' of functions and stick it in in much the same way as the DOS, With standard hook codes. A number of Basic commands could easily be attatched to these codes so that they can also be used in basic. Hacker types would love it for starters! I thought a large number wanted a UNIX port anyway? In that case lets throw the DOS away and just use the NOS. :o[ The NOS will be VERY hard to do properly, let's structure it logically and put it where we can get the most out of it. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 19:14:25 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:11:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply In-Reply-To: <961128144024_1218777219@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 672 Lines: 17 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >It's time for the OS to get a divorce from BASIC. > > > >Dan > > A point, but it would make Basic slower. I think the big advantage of the > Spectrum and SAM are that their Basics are powerful enough to be usable - to > hide that behind a CLI would be a mistake I think. We wouldn't be hiding the Basic behind a CLI, we would be providing a CLI alongside the BASIC. That means that Basic users could just use the standard commands for loading, saving etc. However users can switch into the CLI for simple control of files without the problems of Basic syntax. I see no reason why it would slow down the Basic. TimW. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 19:15:33 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199611291912.TAA11628@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS stuff for the ROM (equivilant) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:12:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <10D5424487D@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "JohnnaPig Teare" at Nov 29, 96 06:13:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 633 Lines: 18 > > The question is how much else can we fit? > > If vital utilities are not on board, a hard driveless SAMSON would be very > > annoying. > > it seems a bit stupid to go backwards (IMHO) by > not having the BASIC there when you boot up. It is, as Bob has said > previously, handy to be able to switch on and type PRINT 123*456 to > get an answer if you need it quickly, rather than having to load the > basic in first. > > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) SANSONbasic/DOS/NOS/GUI/TextEditor Someone was scare-mungering that this would break the bank. How expensive would this chip actualy be? (and how slow?) Numb. From imc Fri Nov 29 19:17:07 1996 Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:17:07 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Nov 28, 96 06:22:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 355 Lines: 9 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:22:12 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > I find using Csize 8,9 in mode 3 easier to read than 8,8 or especially 6,8... After long periods of reading text at CSIZE 6,8 I find CSIZE 8,8 in mode 3 looks rather stretched out, like a line in a newspaper w h i c h d i d n't h a v e e n o u g h l e t t e r s one one line. :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 19:24:03 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:22:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. In-Reply-To: <199611281806_MC1-C85-FAE3@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 892 Lines: 32 On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Neville Young wrote: > History /bug/ > enter command 1 > enter command 2 > get command 1 from history > command 2 is lost. I've never seen that one, despite using MasterB quite a lot - can you give more details? > global vars passed to proc by ref are out of scope within the proc: > 10 DEFPROC MYPROC REF MYVAR > 20 PRINT MYVAR > 30 PRINT MYPARAM > 40 ENDPROC > 50 LET MYPARAM = 10 > 60 MYPROC MYPARAM Hmm. I see the problem - however there is no sensible solution to this really. > I see some don't like it when sam looks for a procedure when you mistype a > command. BUT others are asking that if a command is not found then look for > it on disk. Hopefully, the looking for commands on disk thing has been laid to rest. However I do like the looking for a procedure bit. It does not affect legibility of listings, as the SAM capitalises all tokens. Tim W. From imc Fri Nov 29 19:26:10 1996 Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:26:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Nov 29, 96 07:22:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 366 Lines: 15 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:22:32 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > > global vars passed to proc by ref are out of scope within the proc: > > 10 DEFPROC MYPROC REF MYVAR > > 20 PRINT MYVAR > > 30 PRINT MYPARAM > > 40 ENDPROC > > 50 LET MYPARAM = 10 > > 60 MYPROC MYPARAM > > Hmm. I see the problem - however there is no sensible solution to this > really. Why not? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 19:37:28 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:35:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 908 Lines: 26 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > Hmmm.... CLI on top of a bios. BASIC on top of a CLI. > GUI on top of the CLI (or BASIC CLI). SOunds horribly > PCish... can we not whittle things down to just > one layer somehow? (Hierarchy is nice, but on a 6MHz > 8-bit machine?!). Yes - I think all this layering would be extremely restrictive, however I'm going to suggest another scheme... 1) BIOS / Standalone m-code programs 2) DOS / NOS / User Drivers 3) BASIC / CLI / GUI / Other stuff |______|_____|_______| Interchangeable I'm trying to suggest in layer 3 that we have the CLI/GUI/BASIC together - both above and below each other. That way you could be running the GUI with a CLI in one window, and application running could have been written in Basic. However before entering the GUI, you could have just run a Basic program from the CLI. Anyone see what I'm getting at? Tim From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 19:50:10 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:47:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. In-Reply-To: <9611291926.AA07814@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1361 Lines: 42 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:22:32 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > > > global vars passed to proc by ref are out of scope within the proc: > > > 10 DEFPROC MYPROC REF MYVAR > > > 20 PRINT MYVAR > > > 30 PRINT MYPARAM > > > 40 ENDPROC > > > 50 LET MYPARAM = 10 > > > 60 MYPROC MYPARAM > > > > Hmm. I see the problem - however there is no sensible solution to this > > really. > > Why not? > Passing parameters by REF is 'call by reference' (?) rather than call by value. However there is no idea of pointers in Basic. So I would interpret the usage in the Basic above (excluding line 30) as: Initialise MYVAR Set MYVAR = Value of MYPARAM do whatever's in procedure On exiting, Set MYPARAM = MYVAR To fix this, you would have to do the equivalent of: Initialise MYVAR Set MYVAR = Value of MYPARAM do first command of procedure Then: Has MYPARAM been updated? - if so set MYVAR = MYPARAM Else has MYVAR changed? - if so set MYPARAM = MYVAR Repeat until exiting the procedure. I'm sure that other languages could just make MYVAR a pointer to MYPARAM, but this would have to be another concept to put into SAM Basic. All in all, I have to question why on earth you would want to pass parameters to a procedure via REF when you are using global variables within that procedure anyway. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 19:58:26 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:56:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply In-Reply-To: <10D5424487D@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1345 Lines: 28 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, JohnnaPig Teare wrote: > Ever used a single drive 512k Amiga500? If you have a cut-down > version of Workbench you need about four disk swaps just to copy > something from one disk to the other - the first being to load the > command 'COPY' into memory, and then to reinsert the orignal disk, > and then copy the item. I know this isn't exactly similar to the > problem stated, but it seems a bit stupid to go backwards (IMHO) by > not having the BASIC there when you boot up. It is, as Bob has said > previously, handy to be able to switch on and type PRINT 123*456 to > get an answer if you need it quickly, rather than having to load the > basic in first. I have read every message that has come up recently, and NOT ONE of them has mentioned not putting the Basic in ROM(and ROM=SRAM for this purpose:) Yet someone misreads a mail somewhere, and we get streams of messages about how we must put the BASIC in ROM. (I've used Johnna's message as an example, but I know he was following up someone else's post). This is a problem with this list at the moment - we reach a rough consensus on something, and then a misreading reopens another can of worms. Please read before you post... Tim W. (And before anyone starts the flames, I know that I'm probably just as guilty as anyone else, but I do try...) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 20:12:22 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 20:10:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) In-Reply-To: <961127132355_1352719377@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1395 Lines: 36 On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > I would like to see the syntax parsing simplyfied by either:- > > a) including the command PROC to introduce a call to a procedure Hmm. I think the non-PROC procedure names work well as part of SAM-Basic. I personally think this usage is very intuitive - ie the procedure is called as though it were just another Basic command. I'd be interested to hear your reasons why you want to do away with this. > b) forcing all procedures to be declared before they are called in a program. Declaring things is totally against the spirit of Basic, and would over-complicate the writing of Basic. Definitely not. > My leaning is towards the first option, although I do have another > alternative which I wont go into this time. > > The only problems at the moment are caused by there being SAM ROM, plus DOS, > plus MasterBasic, plus HDOS - all needing to have their go at things. One > intergrated operating system, with a set of commands that follow rules, will > cure that. Commands that follow rules? Do you have examples of commands that don't follow rules? I agree the DOS/MBAsic/HDOS 'kludgery' is a problem though - a unified system with an easy method of expanding for new devices is important. One thing I would be sorry to lose though is the facility (I assume used by MDos, MBasic) to add in your own commands to Basic. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 20:34:44 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 20:31:56 GMT Message-Id: <199611292031.UAA10829@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 739 Lines: 28 On Nov 29, 1996 19:35:33, 'Tim Wells ' wrote: [snip, snip, snip] >Yes - I think all this layering would be extremely restrictive, >however I'm going to suggest another scheme... [snip again] > >Anyone see what I'm getting at? > >Tim -- Ok bud, but if you do it in 3 like dis: 1) BIOS 2) DOS / NOS / User Drivers / Basic / GUI / Standalone m-code 3) Applications And the BIOS controls a jump table which DOS, Basic and other things can communicate through, then as you add new bits in the whole power of the rest is available to you. Note. No CLI, no need, DOS/NOS/TOS/FLOS whatever, all there at same time and at same level, so why duplicate? Samsboss. (after that me head hurtypoos) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Nov 29 20:49:52 1996 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:47:22 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Was sam basic To: sam users Message-Id: <199611291547_MC1-C83-F8E4@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1533 Lines: 49 T Wells wrote >> global vars passed to proc by ref are out of scope within the proc: >> 10 DEFPROC MYPROC REF MYVAR >> 20 PRINT MYVAR >> 30 PRINT MYPARAM >> 40 ENDPROC >> 50 LET MYPARAM = 10 .> 60 MYPROC MYPARAM >All in all, I have to question why on earth >you would want to pass parameters to a >procedure via REF when you are using >global variables within that procedure anyway. It was an example to demonstrate a bug not a real piece of code. The problem as I understand it is that when you pass a param by ref on sam it simply gets renamed for the duration of the proc hence the loss of the original during the scope of the proc. It gets even better when you have procs inside procs. I would like to see scope rules along the lines of modula-2 or oberon but would settle for C scope rules even if this disallowed nested procs. Re history bug: On the PC I some times find myself doing the following type of thing (this is a demo not real life) MYPROG FILE1 > TEXT.PRN PRINT TEXT.PRN MYPROG FILE2 > TEXT.PRN PRINT TEXT.PRN MYPROG FILE3 > TEXT.PRN PRINT TEXT.PRN Using the history this is dead easy. I have to type the first two command in full but then I use uparrow twice to show the first command and then edit the line uparrow twice for the second command repeat the last two instructions. Doing similar on the sam, after getting the first command from the history (CNTRL+uparrow), editing it and executing it. The second command (PRINT in the example) has been lost and has to be typed in once more. Nev. From imc Sat Nov 30 10:37:15 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:37:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Nov 29, 96 07:35:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1025 Lines: 23 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:35:33 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > 1) BIOS / Standalone m-code programs > 2) DOS / NOS / User Drivers > 3) BASIC / CLI / GUI / Other stuff > |______|_____|_______| > Interchangeable > I'm trying to suggest in layer 3 that we have the CLI/GUI/BASIC together > - both above and below each other. Well actually, BASIC, CLI and GUI are all application programs. Each one can launch another as an application. However, the GUI in particular, if it is in use, will want to provide services to machine code programs. In addition, the OS will probably want to allow programs to start the BASIC interpreter, and programs could possibly want to provide services to the BASIC interpreter. For example, the SHELL command in BASIC might usually launch the CLI in order to execute a command, but an editor might want to redirect this so that the command SHELL "input Test" inputs a line containing the word "Test" into the file being edited. You can then write editor macros in BASIC. imc From imc Sat Nov 30 10:42:39 1996 Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:42:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Nov 29, 96 07:47:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1089 Lines: 20 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:47:46 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > Passing parameters by REF is 'call by reference' (?) rather than call by > value. However there is no idea of pointers in Basic. That doesn't stop them from being used under the covers. Now you mention it, it is entirely possible that Sam BASIC works by passing the parameter by value and then at the end of the procedure copying the value back to the original variable. I don't think this is the best way of doing it in general, although the structure of the variable table might be an obstacle to doing it with pointers. (It can still be done; you can create a REF variable that contains the name of the variable being referenced, and the ROM simply has to do another variable search on the new name. This would obviously make variable accesses slower. For numeric variables, assuming they don't ever move relative to the start of the variables area (I can't remember but I don't think they do) you can just store a pointer to the variable's value and that would be almost as fast as an ordinary variable lookup). imc From imc Sat Nov 30 10:45:47 1996 Subject: Re: Samson text editor (was Re: SAMSON: bundled software) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:45:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Nov 29, 96 08:10:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 500 Lines: 11 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 20:10:25 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > One thing I would be sorry to lose though is the facility (I assume used > by MDos, MBasic) to add in your own commands to Basic. A less kludgy, easier method would no doubt be preferable though. Especially considering the current difficulty with regard to allocating token codes (especially since there aren't many non-FF ones left and not that many FF ones either, and FF tokens are even more effort to program than non-FF ones). imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 13:31:25 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:43:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Nov 30, 96 10:15:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 688 Lines: 16 > This is precisely the road we don't want to go down - adding lots of junk > into the system as standard. Whilst these types of extensions are nice, > they add overheads in terms of ROM space and syntax checking time, etc, and > they are not of universal application. > Too much junk is undesirable, but if you have plenty of useful (say graphic) routines then that is good - if the SAMSon has radically different hardware then all that it needed is a different ROM and many existing pieces of software will work. OK, maybe that's the job of the GUI, but the GUI then you could have just one GUI which would run on different SAMs with different graphics boards, s/ware etc... -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 13:31:46 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:19:23 -0500 From: Neville Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: was sam basic To: sam users Message-Id: <199611300619_MC1-C7B-FA4F@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 461 Lines: 24 To Tim W No by nested procs I mean like the following: 100 DEFPROC PROC1 200 BLAH BLAH 300 DEFPROC LOCALPROC1 400 BLAH BLAH 500 ENDPROC 600 ENDPROC 700 DEFPROC PROC2 800 BLAH BLAH 900 DEFPROC LOCALPROC2 1000 BLAH BLAH 1100 ENDPROC 1200 ENDPROC localproc1 should only be available while inside proc1 and localproc2 only available while in proc2 In C all functions are declaired at the same level and all are available at all times. Nev From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 13:32:34 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:15:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 905 Lines: 19 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Justin Skists wrote: > I've been having a look at SCADS and since the code is supposed to be PD, > can't we include the supervisor (or something like it) part into > SAMBasic. We could sell the designer part seperately.. That way, the user > can make really cute and simple games for nearly no cost and in next to > no time... You can't do that with PCs and Amigas.. :) No. This is precisely the road we don't want to go down - adding lots of junk into the system as standard. Whilst these types of extensions are nice, they add overheads in terms of ROM space and syntax checking time, etc, and they are not of universal application. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ = Tim Wells -- tgw1001@cam.ac.uk -- http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~93tgw = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 13:32:42 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:59:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <199611292031.UAA10829@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1830 Lines: 56 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > Ok bud, but if you do it in 3 like dis: > > 1) BIOS > 2) DOS / NOS / User Drivers / Basic / GUI / Standalone m-code > 3) Applications > > And the BIOS controls a jump table which DOS, Basic and other things can > communicate through, then as you add new bits in the whole power of the > rest is available to you. > > Note. No CLI, no need, DOS/NOS/TOS/FLOS whatever, all there at same time > and at same level, so why duplicate? (FLOS - Finally the Last Operating System?) Because I don't think the DOS shouldn't be a CLI - it should do what it knows best - look after the disks. My plan has your DOS/NOS/whatever as drivers through which the other parts of the system access disks etc. Hence the DOS/whatever can be updated, without making huge changes to the rest of the system: A quick example, using a hypothetical upgrade from DOS to a HDOS, with operation from BASIC: LOAD "D1:Boris" :Disk command as we know and love LOAD "H1:Boris" :Logical extension to Hard Disk - Here, unless we totally re-write the DOS, the HDOS has to mess about scanning lines for 'H?:', and then passing commands on to the DOS. Whereas under my scheme: LOAD "D1:Boris" : Basic commands are the same LOAD "H1:Boris" - However the equivalent commands are dropped down into the DOS level, Here the drive information is checked, and on finding that H?: accesses are controlled by the HDOS drivers, passes the control on to them. Tim W. > > Samsboss. > (after that me head hurtypoos) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ = Tim Wells -- tgw1001@cam.ac.uk -- http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~93tgw = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 13:32:43 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:43:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Cc: sam users Subject: Re: Was sam basic In-Reply-To: <199611291547_MC1-C83-F8E4@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2459 Lines: 71 On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Neville Young wrote: > It was an example to demonstrate a bug not a real piece of code. I appreciated that - I was just questioning the type of programming that would cause this bug to appear. > The problem as I understand it is that when you pass a param by ref on sam > it simply gets renamed for the duration of the proc hence the loss of the > original during the scope of the proc. Renamed? - OK, wouldn't have thought of doing it that way, but probably as easy as any other. However as I said before - you would be getting into murky waters if you had access to the renamed version and the original. > It gets even better when you have procs inside procs. I would like to see > scope rules along the lines of > modula-2 or oberon but would settle for C scope rules even if this > disallowed nested procs. I have an idea of what you're suggesting here about scope rules, but would appreciate it if you could give an example. As for nested procs: If you mean: 10 proc1 20 stop 30 DEF PROC proc1 40 proc2 50 END PROC 60 DEF PROC proc2 70 PRINT "Hello World" 80 END PROC Would be disallowed, then I would take great exception to it. This would seriously reduce the ease of use of Basic, just to fix a 'bug' which has little impact on ease of programming. > Re history bug: > On the PC I some times find myself doing the following type of thing > (this is a demo not real life) > > MYPROG FILE1 > TEXT.PRN > PRINT TEXT.PRN > MYPROG FILE2 > TEXT.PRN > PRINT TEXT.PRN > MYPROG FILE3 > TEXT.PRN > PRINT TEXT.PRN > > Using the history this is dead easy. > I have to type the first two command in full but then I use > uparrow twice to show the first command and then edit the line > uparrow twice for the second command > repeat the last two instructions. > Doing similar on the sam, after getting the first command > from the history (CNTRL+uparrow), editing it and executing it. The second > command > (PRINT in the example) has been lost and has to be typed in once more. I often do similar things myself on the SAM - In fact I use it so often that I am lost if I don't load MasterBasic in. However I've never seen the problem you're describing - I'm not near my SAM at the moment, so I can't check, but what you're describing is a major problem with the history command that I'm sure I would have noticed. (I hate to suggest this, but you are using a recent version of MasterBasic aren't you?) Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 14:26:21 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:21:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <9611301037.AA08387@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 599 Lines: 15 On Sat, 30 Nov 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:35:33 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > > > I'm trying to suggest in layer 3 that we have the CLI/GUI/BASIC together > > - both above and below each other. > > Well actually, BASIC, CLI and GUI are all application programs. Each one > can launch another as an application. However, the GUI in particular, if > it is in use, will want to provide services to machine code programs. Thanks. I think that this was the idea I had in my mind when writing earlier, but I wasn't doing that well at expressing it. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:21:36 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:15:45 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130151545_1218993485@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM BASIC - Comments needed. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 295 Lines: 16 In a message dated 29/11/96 10:37:02, you write: >> 1) features they like/use most > >I love SamBasic ;-)) >> >> 2) features the dislike > >I hate MasterBasic .... >> >Slawek. Any particular reason you 'hate' MasterBasic? I mean it contains so much that you surely can't hate it all. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:21:36 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:15:46 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130151546_1286089037@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 411 Lines: 14 In a message dated 29/11/96 12:20:59, you write: >I must admit never understanding the point in a raw DOS without any >programming language around it (as found on TRCs for example). The whole >point of having the data in the first place is to COMPUTE with and on it. >Why access it from an environment that can not compute? > >Numb. Put so well I could not think of anything to add. My point exactly. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:22:07 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:15:40 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130151539_706610253@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 243 Lines: 12 In a message dated 28/11/96 12:54:29, you write: >> It's time for the OS to get a divorce from BASIC. > >I've said something like this before.. > >-- But Basic IS our operating system, it IS our CLI, why would we need to change that? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:53:41 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:48:42 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130154840_1717702108@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 94 Lines: 7 In a message dated 29/11/96 16:13:13, you write: >Yeah, says who? :) Well I said so. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:53:41 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:48:48 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130154847_740167517@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 697 Lines: 18 In a message dated 29/11/96 17:19:23, you write: >A raw DOS operates the disk, as its name implies. It provides functions >which can be called by machine code programs. The CLI and BASIC are >programs which need disk access. Therefore they are implemented on top >of DOS, calling DOS functions whenever they need access. A machine code >program (which is called from the CLI or from the BASIC) does the same. >DOS and BASIC are completely separate entities and should stay separate. > >This is, incidentally, much like how the +3 is programmed. > >imc Look, for the last time, the CLI is the Basic - unified, as one, combined, all together. There is NO VALID reason to seperate them. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:53:41 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:48:50 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130154849_1084854237@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 267 Lines: 10 In a message dated 29/11/96 18:13:59, you write: > Perhaps we could >get Glen Cook back in to do a little updating (the Speed of SCADs was >always the biggest problem.) If anyone can find Glen Cook I would be very please, he owes me a great deal of money. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:53:43 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:48:53 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130154851_1218996317@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 502 Lines: 22 In a message dated 30/11/96 10:01:08, you write: >Whereas under my scheme: > >LOAD "D1:Boris" : Basic commands are the same >LOAD "H1:Boris" > - However the equivalent commands are dropped down into the DOS level, > Here the drive information is checked, and on finding that H?: > accesses are controlled by the HDOS drivers, passes the control on to > them. > >Tim W. I think it should be:- LOAD D1"Filename" or LOAD H1"Filename" That way the device specifier is seperate. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:53:50 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:48:46 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130154846_572422877@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 780 Lines: 18 In a message dated 29/11/96 16:44:19, you write: >In your design, there is no level at which REAL programs can run. We >need a level where we can do whatever we want to memory and the >processors, without the need to conform to the rules and regulations that >GUI or CLI may impose. This Level 1 is where fast games and demos etc. >should live. Oh no, we must never again fall into the trap of allowing programs to just do what they want - especially when we come to the Z380 and the new graphics cards. Programmers must never again be allowed to think "I know a better way of doing that, so I'm going to", that is where half our problems have come from. What we need to do is say "here is an enviroment to run your programs in, and here are the rules you may work by". Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:53:50 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:48:51 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130154850_1151955933@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS magic TAB & CLI - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 206 Lines: 10 In a message dated 29/11/96 19:14:06, you write: > However users can switch into >the CLI for simple control of files without the problems of Basic syntax. What problems of Basic syntax? > >TimW. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 20:53:51 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:48:53 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961130154853_1353093725@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAMSON Character Set. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 202 Lines: 7 I would like to propose the adoption of the ANSI character set for SAM. Codes 0-31 are used as special codes (some peculiar to SAMSON) Codes 32 to 255 use the standard ANSI set. Comments anyone? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 21:01:24 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 20:59:43 GMT Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <2146D1C274D@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 353 Lines: 14 > I think it should be:- > > LOAD D1"Filename" > or > LOAD H1"Filename" > > That way the device specifier is seperate. > > Bob. Yes, really must agree with Bob here. Can we have LD for load as well as the word "load" itself and sv for "save"? That is, if we are gonna use the word load at all, and not just type the .exe filename like in MS-DOS From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 21:21:34 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:15:12 GMT Message-Id: <199611302115.VAA19470@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 359 Lines: 11 On Nov 30, 1996 20:59:43, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >Yes, really must agree with Bob here. Can we have LD for load as well >as the word "load" itself and sv for "save"? That is, if we are gonna >use the word load at all, and not just type the .exe filename like in >MS-DOS -- No extensions, please, no extensions. Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 21:30:52 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:28:01 GMT Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <214E5E7230D@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 525 Lines: 15 > On Nov 30, 1996 20:59:43, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: > > > >Yes, really must agree with Bob here. Can we have LD for load as well > >as the word "load" itself and sv for "save"? That is, if we are gonna > >use the word load at all, and not just type the .exe filename like in > >MS-DOS > -- > No extensions, please, no extensions. > > Samsboss. Erm. No extensions? I'm confused. Why not??! How do u distinguish between a code file and a screen file?!? I'm not sure I get your point... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 21:34:18 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:29:28 GMT Message-Id: <199611302129.VAA20080@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 745 Lines: 27 On Nov 30, 1996 21:28:01, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >> On Nov 30, 1996 20:59:43, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >> >> >> >Yes, really must agree with Bob here. Can we have LD for load as well >> >as the word "load" itself and sv for "save"? That is, if we are gonna >> >use the word load at all, and not just type the .exe filename like in >> >MS-DOS >> -- >> No extensions, please, no extensions. >> >> Samsboss. > >Erm. No extensions? I'm confused. Why not??! How do u distinguish >between a code file and a screen file?!? I'm not sure I get your >point... -- By its filetype of course. Why would you need an extension when the filetype is already there? Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 21:48:34 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:45:26 GMT Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <21530423AC0@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 864 Lines: 28 > >> On Nov 30, 1996 20:59:43, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: > >> > >> > >> >Yes, really must agree with Bob here. Can we have LD for load as well > > >> >as the word "load" itself and sv for "save"? That is, if we are gonna > > >> >use the word load at all, and not just type the .exe filename like in > > >> >MS-DOS > >> -- > >> No extensions, please, no extensions. > >> > >> Samsboss. > > > >Erm. No extensions? I'm confused. Why not??! How do u distinguish > >between a code file and a screen file?!? I'm not sure I get your > >point... > -- > > By its filetype of course. Why would you need an extension when the > filetype is already there? > > Samsboss. Apologies, I was thinking of MS-Dos where it doesnt show the filetype. My point about just typing the executable file renames the same though. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 22:01:16 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:55:16 GMT Message-Id: <199611302155.VAA20855@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 590 Lines: 18 On Nov 30, 1996 21:45:26, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >Apologies, I was thinking of MS-Dos where it doesnt show the >filetype. My point about just typing the executable file renames the >same though. -- No need to appologise. Don't think just typing the name would work is we have an intergrated Basic/DOS. But how about a command like the BBC's CHAIN command. Type CHAIN "SOMEPROG" and the program SOMEPROG gets loaded and executed, but (any yer be de nice bit, when SAMEPROG terminates, you are back to your original program. What ya think? Samsboss. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 22:10:43 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:08:42 GMT Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <215933A7DE6@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1069 Lines: 23 > No need to appologise. > Don't think just typing the name would work is we have an intergrated > Basic/DOS. > But how about a command like the BBC's CHAIN command. > Type CHAIN "SOMEPROG" and the program SOMEPROG gets loaded and executed, > but (any yer be de nice bit, when SAMEPROG terminates, you are back to your > original program. > > What ya think? > > Samsboss. I remember the chain command from my little Acorn Electron! (Which reminds me, anyone have one they don't want? I'd love to get it back for nostalgia reasons). Anyway, during this DOS discussion lately, I've been trying to keep quiet. I don't like entering a debate when I know nothing about the subject (which means I stay out of my most debates *grin*). I do know however that I'm sick of typing load"whatever". Its slow and fustrating to have to type that and I just hope that the format for loading a program gets shortened. What way it is shortened is up to the rest of the people on this list who have the knowledge that I don't! Just make sure its shorter, ok people! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Nov 30 22:26:18 1996 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:20:13 GMT Message-Id: <199611302220.WAA21993@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 399 Lines: 12 On Nov 30, 1996 22:08:42, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >I do know >however that I'm sick of typing load"whatever". Its slow and >fustrating to have to type that and I just hope that the format for >loading a program gets shortened. -- I don't find the syntax a problem, it is short (compared to some systems I used in the past) and at least it makes sence. Samsboss.