From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:09:12 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:53:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Disc/k Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 325 Lines: 7 > How about...'floppy'? That's that sorted then +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:11:29 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: Edinburgh Uni (CS and MATHS) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:55:38 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 968 Lines: 21 > > > CLI: cd /foo and BASIC: DIR="/foo" > > > rm test ERASE "test" > > > prog x y z OPEN TO 10: LOAD "prog" CODE 32768: CALL > > > 32768,x,y,z > > > Well I've used many different systems, but Basic does have the advantage that > > more 'normal' people will understand the Basic syntax. > > Huh? You still say this after looking at the above? Maybe: cd, what does that stand for, says the normal person DIR, thinks the normal person, hey, maybe that's short for directory, I've heard of them ERASE, thinks the normal person, hey! I know what that does! rm, what the #### ? says the normal person etc +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:25:34 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:53:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@jacobi.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 493 Lines: 13 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > rm, what the #### ? says the normal person rm = remove -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:25:36 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203140846.009b8130@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:08:46 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re:SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 741 Lines: 27 At 13:51 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> >Eg, GIF IMAGE, BITMAP IMAGE rather than GIF89aINTERLACED IMAGE, >> >GIF89aNONINTERLACED IMAGE, GIF87 IMAGE, BITMAP RGB COMPRESSED, BITMAP >> >RLE COMPRESSED, etc >> >> Actually, GIFs and BMPs don't need this -- they've already got that header >> info in the format themselves. > >But, then you don't get the identification in a directory listing, >unless you are prepared to read the first few bytes of every file... No, you get APPLICATION and FILE id's. >What about compressed files? Could there be a bit in the directory >header indicating compressed? I'm loathe to do that... >Then we could get the composite filetype >COMPRESSED GIF IMAGE Which makes no sense :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:31:54 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:05:15 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 452 Lines: 12 > > rm, what the #### ? says the normal person > > rm = remove > Doh! I know that! I was just making a point that DIR and ERASE are, say, more intuitively obvious than cd and rm. +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:35:55 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203140707.009b7590@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:07:07 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re:SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 243 Lines: 12 At 13:46 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> A better way: at the beginning of the file, have four characters: > >Is this the beginning of the file name or its directory entry? >Presumably the latter ;) The former actually :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:39:00 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:10:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Proposed Changes 1.3 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 821 Lines: 15 > > SAMbasic seems to treat CODE files and 'snap' files differently when they > > are the same. > > They are not the same. For a start, snap files have no 9-byte header. > Secondly, snap files have a load of info (namely the register block) dumped > into the directory. This is never accessed except when you load or save the > file as a snap. > Is it just me, or is some of the rest of the directory screwed for snapshots, eg, file length. I was using Integrated Logic's directory editor and it was always misreported, as were some other things. +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:43:54 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:14:21 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS file types Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 894 Lines: 18 > > > A better way: at the beginning of the file, have four characters: > > > Is this the beginning of the file name or its directory entry? > > Presumably the latter ;) > > No, at the beginning of the file. Actually in the file. As part of the > file's contents. > Dunt seem very efficient. Is the file type to be /used/ by the OS or is it just for informative purposes for the user? Why can't it go in the directory entry? We *should* be allowed to freely change the filetype if it /is/ used by the OS... in which case it (maybe?) makes more sense to have it in the directory entry. Why the beginning of the file? +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:47:57 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:15:55 +0000 Subject: Re:SOS file types Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1160 Lines: 31 > >> >Eg, GIF IMAGE, BITMAP IMAGE rather than GIF89aINTERLACED IMAGE, > >> >GIF89aNONINTERLACED IMAGE, GIF87 IMAGE, BITMAP RGB COMPRESSED, BITMAP > >> >RLE COMPRESSED, etc > >> > >> Actually, GIFs and BMPs don't need this -- they've already got that header > >> info in the format themselves. > > > >But, then you don't get the identification in a directory listing, > >unless you are prepared to read the first few bytes of every file... > > No, you get APPLICATION and FILE id's. > > >What about compressed files? Could there be a bit in the directory > >header indicating compressed? > > I'm loathe to do that... > > >Then we could get the composite filetype > >COMPRESSED GIF IMAGE > > Which makes no sense :) > > Simon > Looks like I've maybe missed the point, then. Are the file types implemented for the purposes of the OS then? If so, why? .. do we need them at all .. ? +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:49:49 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:27:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re:SOS file types In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961203122951.009ab054@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 494 Lines: 16 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Simon Cooke wrote: > In that case, define new tags: > > APPLICATION > FILE > > Which is what these files will appear as in the directory. Then the programs > which have to use them can make the decision what to do with them. One thing you might consider looking at is how the Archimedes does this sort of thing (knowing that it has some sort of filetype numbers attached to each file, and the filetype number tells the GUI what icon to display for that file) Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:49:49 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203143548.009abe74@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:35:48 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Proposed Changes 1.3 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 347 Lines: 11 At 14:10 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Is it just me, or is some of the rest of the directory screwed for >snapshots, eg, file length. I was using Integrated Logic's directory >editor and it was always misreported, as were some other things. Nope, it's just their directory editor :) (never had any probs with the one I wrote for MSDOS) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:53:06 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:19:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@jacobi.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1428 Lines: 36 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > > > rm, what the #### ? says the normal person > > > > rm = remove > Doh! I know that! Sheesh... I was only trying to point out that "rm" even sounds like "remove"... and I get my head bitten off.. Unix is for people who hate typing in long commands anyway... most of the comman commands are only two letters long.. > I was just making a point that DIR and ERASE are, say, more > intuitively obvious than cd and rm. You're welcome to your opinion... But I've noticed that some people are trying to redesign the whole concept of DOS... Most people are used to one standard and there is us trying to do everything different.. Why not go the whole hog of changing the acronym to SOD (System for Operating Disks/discs/whatever-else-you-may-want-to-call-it). And we want people to actually buy this thing? 99% of people who hate Unix hate it bacause it has a different syntax to what they are used to... Sounds like to me everyone here wants the same thing to happen to SAMson.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:53:08 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:17:02 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1273 Lines: 28 > > > CLI: cd /foo and BASIC: DIR="/foo" > > > rm test ERASE "test" > > > prog x y z OPEN TO 10: LOAD "prog" CODE 32768: CALL > > > 32768,x,y,z > > > Well I've used many different systems, but Basic does have the advantage that > > more 'normal' people will understand the Basic syntax. > > Huh? You still say this after looking at the above? I'm with Ian on this one, there is nothing abnormal about the CLI syntax, in fact it's a lot simpler and understandable than the cumbersome BASIC syntax. Most Sam users tend to be 'power users' in that they are closer to the internal workings than someone who just uses the software - my sister only knows three things about the Sam, How to turn it on, pressing F9 and how to turn it off. :) In this respect they *must* be catered for, the molly-coddling of BASIC is no substitute for a bit of power and flexibility. If you have a proper OS then you can have either a CLI or BASIC making calls to it and you have no real problem in implementing both schemes and everybody is happy, this I beleieve was the point of Nev's posting on a kernel idea. BASIC is a language and not a shell, let's stop pretending that it is eh? Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 14:58:10 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203144226.009b4820@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:42:26 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 430 Lines: 11 At 14:19 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >You're welcome to your opinion... But I've noticed that some people are >trying to redesign the whole concept of DOS... Most people are used to >one standard and there is us trying to do everything different.. Why not >go the whole hog of changing the acronym to SOD (System for Operating >Disks/discs/whatever-else-you-may-want-to-call-it). Call it a Virtual Filing System then. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 15:03:00 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:33:11 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612031433.AA11647@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS file types X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 455 Lines: 12 > Dunt seem very efficient. Is the file type to be /used/ by the OS or > is it just for informative purposes for the user? Why can't it go in > the directory entry? We *should* be allowed to freely change the > filetype if it /is/ used by the OS... in which case it (maybe?) makes > more sense to have it in the directory entry. > Why the beginning of the file? *sigh* The filetype should not be defined by the OS, but by the application. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 15:03:54 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612031427.OAA06257@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:27:41 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4962 Lines: 130 This is a long mail! Make certain you read the end as it is much more important than the top! > >who dishes out the unused BASIC tokons? >No-one does. This is the problem though -- we'll run out!!! The owners of the DOS should. The best bet would be a fairly lengthy justification argument on this list, followed by a vote. If the DOS is owned by one person as opposed to a small group then that one person should have the power to reverse the decision of the vote. People without internet access should write letters for the group to base their judgment on. simple and democratic (almost)! >>I am fairly confident that we will never use more than 255 anyway but it >>is best to be safe! extreme case: 4 bytes would give 1020 different file >>types! > >And where, pray tell, are you going to find these extra 3 bytes in the >directory structure? Have we got any 'Reserved for future use' spaces? Or 'used on the +D but not on the SAM' spaces? I am certain we could scavenge enough from somewhere in the directory (see later!). Putting it in the first bytes of the file itself is crazyness! >A better way: at the beginning of the file, have four characters: >BAS - BASIC >CODE - CODE >48KS - 48K snapshot >128K - 128k snapshot >NUMD - Numeric Data >STRD - String data >OPEN - OPENTYPE (or /no/ header perhaps?) >SCRN - SCREEN file >GIF - GIF file >IFF - Amiga IFF file >ETRK - E tracker module >PTRK - Pro Tracker module. >Only certain files will be recognised and have their files displayed. (ie >the standard SAM ones). They should also have a greatly cut down amount >of info stuck in the directory space. >Simon It is a great idea but I am not certain if it is the way to go. Putting the characters at the begining of the file is not a good move. There must be a way of squeezing them into the directory. But what about the morality of this... We could have a DOS system variable, that in a directory displays these endings after the filenames and after a '.'. If you look at it this way we are simply extending the length of the filename by 4 characters and forcing a dot in there. Why not have more than 4 characters and have our 512 character file names at the begining of the file? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!![A huge lightbulb appears above head...]!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BRILLIANT ALTERNATIVE SUGGESTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As it does not matter if your 4 charcters are upper or lower case we could capitalize them and squeeze them both into 2 bytes! It MUST be possible to find one extra byte in the directory entry! When a directory is made, these 2 bytes are compared against the table of standard types held within the DOS. If the 2 byte code has an entry, the respective file type is displayed on the right (assuming a CAT 1 !). If there is not such a code then the 2 bytes are decompressed and they are diplayed on the right (in capital letters) followed by the normal data you get with a code file such as the length etc. e.g. ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ ********************************************************************** 1) Grobo 123 BASIC Program, Start line 9998 2) The Warm Song 512 Pro Tracker Module, len 55654 3) Tree.glen 38 CODE, start 8636363, len 463557 4) nine 186 Amiga IFF file, len 73048 5) mouse.gif 932 GIF graphics, len 3796363 6) carrot 63 HRSS, len 1284 Here, all of the files are known to the DOS apart from the HRSS type that carrot has. This person needs to update their DOS, but can still see a usefull name for the new file type. The file types in the table would be best if they contained tags to embed and relvent information that is stored elsewhere within the directory entry. e.g. some will want to use the length, the address it was saved from etc. MOST IMPORTANT........................................................... All applications that want their own file type MUST still reserve their 4 letters, perhaps as suggested above, or we will have trouble! Anyone saving files that uses thier own file type without first having it reserved will be destroyed! -THE ONLY LAW! ......................................................................... we could use the 4 character identifiers to manipulate the extensions. e.g. RENAME "tree.glen" TO "tree.glen" "ETRK" and CAT1;"*";"ETRK" or maybe RENAME "tree.glen" TO "tree.glen~ETRK" and DIR1;"~ETRK" If anyone can think of better syntax for this then say so! These syntax's are far from perfect! What about that solution?! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 15:10:58 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203144224.009b5b18@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:42:24 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1060 Lines: 23 At 14:14 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Dunt seem very efficient. Is the file type to be /used/ by the OS or >is it just for informative purposes for the user? Why can't it go in >the directory entry? We *should* be allowed to freely change the >filetype if it /is/ used by the OS... in which case it (maybe?) makes >more sense to have it in the directory entry. It's for the use of programs which use it. The directory can also tell the user things, but if you've got 4000 file types, where are you going to store the information which tells you what file's what? You've only got limited screen space, and it'll take forever to do. Also, file type info should always, where possible, be stored in the file, so that you can do things like add symbolic links (which are *VERY* handy) >Why the beginning of the file? Because it's impossible to find it if you put it anywhere else (except for the end). And as you create files starting at zero length, the start of the file seems the most sensible option (and the quickest in terms of disk access). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 15:11:35 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612031445.OAA06337@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS RUN command To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:45:03 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 640 Lines: 22 >>> Tue, 3 Dec 1996 06:37:22 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: >>> CLI: cd /foo and BASIC: DIR="/foo" >>> rm test ERASE "test" >>> prog x y z OPEN TO 10: LOAD "prog" CODE 32768: >>> CALL 32768,x,y,z >>> >> Well I've used many different systems, but Basic does have the >>advantage that more 'normal' people will understand the Basic syntax. > > Huh? You still say this after looking at the above? > >imc Can we please stop repeating ourselfs! With a new RUN and PATH commands the BASIC could read... PATH "/foo" ERASE "test" RUN "prog" x,y,z short and sweet! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 15:15:21 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203144516.009bf3cc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 14:45:16 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re:SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 443 Lines: 13 At 14:27 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >One thing you might consider looking at is how the Archimedes does this >sort of thing (knowing that it has some sort of filetype numbers attached >to each file, and the filetype number tells the GUI what icon to display >for that file) Already considered it :) Then you have to register the files somewhere... possible, but not for a DOS, or for BASIC, or the CLI -- GUI yes, lower-level no. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 15:31:00 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612031516.PAA06530@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:16:24 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2300 Lines: 72 As everyone now seems to just be selfishly expressing their own personal opinions, here are mine... > 99% of people who hate Unix hate it bacause it has a different syntax to > what they are used to... Sounds like to me everyone here wants the same > thing to happen to SAMson.. we could set up aliases for all of the common syntaxes. RUN = _ LOAD = ? ERASE = rm = delete COPY = mv =move PATH = [DIR=] = cd CAT = DIR there is no vitally important reason why not. The user is using a SAMSON so will have to put up with the quotes and the fact that all of these terms will be turned into the respective SAM ones when they press (?!) I have but two questions. 1)Why was INK on the speccy changed to PEN on the SAM? 2)Why was CAT on the speccy changed to DIR on the SAM? Was it change for the sake of change or was there a valid reason? I was annoyed when I had to start writing DIR instead of CAT. I prefered CAT. And, for the GO__SUB and GO_TO argument, do we also want to change DEF_PROC, END_IF and about a million others? It does get a bit annoying with the spaces expecially in END_IF, but then again, it looks nice to have DEF_PROC seperated. Why don't we have a vote at the end of next week. Gives plenty of time for Bob and Co. to state exactly which and what commands they think we should change. The '*' should, in my opinion be used to complete the rest of a filename upto the next '.' (end of field) operator. It should not, as Bob said be used to fill in the start of the field i.e. "*er" is not acceptable. The '.' operater however starts a whole new field so "*.er" and "h*.el*.*.p*" should be valid. Last but not least, we have a simple choice PATH "D1:basic/": LOAD D1:"TreeGlen" "BAS" PATH "D1:basic/": LOAD D1:"TreeGlen~BAS" PATH "D1:basic/": LOAD "D1:TreeGlen" "BAS" PATH "D1:basic/": LOAD "D1:TreeGlen~BAS" PATH D1:"basic/": LOAD D1:"TreeGlen" "BAS" PATH D1:"basic/": LOAD D1:"TreeGlen~BAS" PATH D1:"basic/": LOAD "D1:TreeGlen" "BAS" PATH D1:"basic/": LOAD "D1:TreeGlen~BAS" LOAD D1:basic/:"TreeGlen" "BAS" LOAD D1:basic/:"TreeGlen~BAS" LOAD D1:"basic/TreeGlen" "BAS" LOAD D1:"basic/TreeGlen~BAS" LOAD D1:"basic/":"TreeGlen" "BAS" LOAD D1:"basic/":"TreeGlen~BAS" LOAD "D1:basic/TreeGlen" "BAS" LOAD "D1:basic/TreeGlen~BAS" I cannot decide. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:01:29 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <959.199612031522@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:21:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612031516.PAA06530@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 3, 96 03:16:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 228 Lines: 10 > we could set up aliases for all of the common syntaxes. Could do, but it would take up memory space. > LOAD "D1:basic/TreeGlen~BAS" > I cannot decide. Speaking of trees, I sense a little trees/wood problem coming on here. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:07:36 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:48:48 +0000 Subject: Re:SOS file types Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 938 Lines: 21 > As it does not matter if your 4 charcters are upper or lower case we could > capitalize them and squeeze them both into 2 bytes! Bzing? How do ya fit 2 x log (26) into 1 byte? You'd need 10 bits in (2) a byte (< not that thick on the ground, are 10bit bytes) > Here, all of the files are known to the DOS apart from the HRSS type that > carrot has. This person needs to update their DOS, but can still see > a usefull name for the new file type. Blech, update the dos? So every time a new file type comes out, or is used by almost anything, you gotta go through the whole flick switch, change sram, flick switch back process? Eek +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:17:50 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:41:43 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS file types Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1337 Lines: 22 > >Why the beginning of the file? > > Because it's impossible to find it if you put it anywhere else (except for > the end). And as you create files starting at zero length, the start of the > file seems the most sensible option (and the quickest in terms of disk access). > Nuh. What I meant was, why not have the magic 4-characters or whatever stored in the directory entry, and maybe stored at the start of the file as well, if you like. It seems nicer to find out about a file by just looking at its directory entry, rather than looking up the entry, index the file and reading the first 4 characters of the file. Suppose you want to find the file 'types' (and not just application or file) of all the files in yer directory. You could load in the whole directory, er, thingy (tracks 0-3 on the sam, y'know what I mean) and procede to pull out the answers, or you could read the first 4 bytes of every file from other places on the disc. Certainly, for floppy based systems, the first seems better (ie, stored in both start of file & directory entry) +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:18:01 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:40:34 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re:SOS file types Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <34EB022293D@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1283 Lines: 30 > Have we got any 'Reserved for future use' spaces? Or 'used on the +D but > not on the SAM' spaces? I am certain we could scavenge enough from > somewhere in the directory (see later!). Putting it in the first bytes of > the file itself is crazyness! Er, hold on, aren't we inventing a new file/disk structure for the SAMson anyway? So surely when we're designing this we can use as many damn bytes as we like! Anyway, what's wrong with my suggestion of having quite a long string of bytes as the FILETYPE? This could then just be printed in ASCII on the directory listing. An application could simply invent a meaningful filetype for it's file's - such as "SAM Word - Document file". This filetype wouldn't be part of the Filename though, so it wouldn't need entering every time the file was manipulated. > As it does not matter if your 4 charcters are upper or lower case we could > capitalize them and squeeze them both into 2 bytes! > It MUST be possible to find one extra byte in the directory entry! Erm... How? 2 Bytes=16 bits. Or 4 4 bit chunks. Each four bit chunk could only contain 16 different characters, so how do you squeeze 26 in? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:20:04 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:43:18 +0000 Subject: Re: Proposed Changes 1.3 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 530 Lines: 11 > Nope, it's just their directory editor :) > > (never had any probs with the one I wrote for MSDOS) .. but then again you wrote your own snapshot copier - which probably corrected the file length info in the header when you copied the snapshots .. hmm? :) +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:26:30 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:53:15 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 873 Lines: 18 > Sheesh... I was only trying to point out that "rm" even sounds like > "remove"... and I get my head bitten off.. Sorry! Anyway, believe me, many people who don't use computers much think rm stands for (in order of popularity) room or remainder. > Unix is for people who hate typing in long commands anyway... most of the > comman commands are only two letters long.. So be it, I say. But more people might like a CLI that allows rm and remove and erase and delete and del and ... than just a (slightly cryptic) rm. Hey, maybe not that many, but you know what I mean. Cd and Chdir, for example. +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:52:34 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:35:23 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 484 Lines: 9 > Why not "*er"? It's no different to "*.er" really... Chunk, yes it is. Try typing dir "*.er" on a sam when you have files like 1.er, kevin.er, blech.er. Then try typing dir "*er". Does it work? (didn't for me) +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:53:32 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:36:24 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 493 Lines: 9 > Why not "*er"? It's no different to "*.er" really... Oops. Forgot to add, if you have a file called larger then dir "*.er" returns nowt. However dir "*er" returns larger (assuming the * command is implemented in this way) +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 16:57:48 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:33:12 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612031633.AA19463@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: File types Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4529 Lines: 94 Lets have a bit of clarification here. THE SITUATION BASIC needs to be able to recognise BASIC file types. DRiVER needs to be able to recognise DRiVER file types. RandomApp needs to be able to recognise RandomApp file types. The only reason to have all of these file types identified by the same scheme is so that the user interface can display the type of any and every file when you list the files. If we do away with that requirement life gets a hell of a lot simpler. No clashes of DOS-like suffix .TXT, no red-tape to register your filetype like there is with Macintosh filetypes. Most applications will recognise their own files in a directory listing by some hopefully unique suffix, but it will be up to the application to check that the contents of the file is what they were expecting. Take for instance a GIF image. It's name is steam.gif which makes it easy to recognise it in a file listing. The first three bytes identify it "GIF", the next few say what revision of the GIF spec applies: "GIF89a". A BASIC file can be identified by a special flag in the directory listing for historical reasons, but any new file types can be identified by whatever the application writer feels like. If the application writer chooses to add ".delilah" to the end of his filenames, that may help the user to spot those files in a directory listing, but we need a little more space in the filename before that is possible. The final arbitrator is whether the contents of the file make sense in the application. That means the SAMSON will support an infinite number of different file formats, where Windows (and DOS) only support about a million different file types, and Macintoshes four thousand million different file types. Or we could restrict the SAMSON to only 65 thousand file types, and incur a lot of red-tape, making it automatically less flexible than Windows or MacOS from day one. It might sound like I am advocating the Unix philosophy of filetype "anarchy", but that is something to do with the fact that Unix is fun for programmers, and if we can borrow some of the flexibility of Unix cheaply (this scheme comes cheap) then why not? A SUGGESTION To expand slightly on Frode's comments, Unix has an infinitely expandable file identifying system. The file /etc/magic contains a mapping from "magic strings" near the beginnings of files to plain language descriptions of the file types. If we add the capacity for filename pattern rules to that technique we could provide a MAGIC.OS file on every disk containing something like: GIF ; *.gif ; "GIF"@0 ; Compuserve Image JPEG ; *.jpg|*.jpeg|*.jfif ; "JFIF"@0 ; JPEG Format Image PS ; *.ps ; "%!PS"@0 ; Adobe PostScript AU ; *.au ; 2E736E64@0 ; Sun Audio ISLANDDRAW ; * ; "DrawFile"@13 ; IslandDraw Image TXT ; *.txt ; 0D0A@END ; CRLF Text C ; *.c ; ; C Program BASIC ; * ; () ; BASIC Program CODE ; * ; (CODE) ; BASIC CODE SCREEN$ ; * ; (SCREEN$) ; BASIC SCREEN$ and so on. (The format I am suggesting is semi-colon seperated columns of SHORTNAME; filename*match; content identifier; Long Name where the content identifier is a quoted string literal or hex literal followed by and at-sign and the position in the file to look for that string, or a bracketed BASIC token for the built-in BASIC types.) Before you pooh-pooh this idea on the basis of speed, notice that by reading through the directory and the MAGIC.OS file it is possible to identify almost every file. You only need look in the file to identify it if it has lost it's identifying suffix, or if there is no conventional suffix for that file. If you want to give a specific file the correct description, add its full name in the second column of the MAGIC.OS file on its disk. Notice also how easy it is to have alternate language versions of the MAGIC.OS file. This scheme will handle all the existing file formats I have heard of, and if we are seriously suggesting putting Web software on this machine someday, it will need to handle real world file types, not just SAM BASIC ones. Power to the coders, I say. Give us the freedom to identify our files how we please. / X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:25:37 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS RUN command Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 291 Lines: 20 At 14:45 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Can we please stop repeating ourselfs! >With a new RUN and PATH commands the BASIC could read... > >PATH "/foo" >ERASE "test" >RUN "prog" x,y,z > >short and sweet! BUt that syntax will flop horribly... you meant: RUN "prog",x,y,z I'm sure... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:05:47 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203162539.008e0bbc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:25:39 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 899 Lines: 30 At 15:16 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >I have but two questions. >1)Why was INK on the speccy changed to PEN on the SAM? >2)Why was CAT on the speccy changed to DIR on the SAM? > >Was it change for the sake of change or was there a valid reason? >I was annoyed when I had to start writing DIR instead of CAT. >I prefered CAT. Well, 9 out of 10 users said they preffered DIR :) >The '*' should, in my opinion be used to complete the rest of a filename >upto the next '.' (end of field) operator. It should not, as Bob said be >used to fill in the start of the field i.e. "*er" is not acceptable. The >'.' operater however starts a whole new field so "*.er" and "h*.el*.*.p*" >should be valid. Why not "*er"? It's no different to "*.er" really... > >Last but not least, we have a simple choice >I cannot decide. HOw about LOAD "blarg" to load a BASIC program? Simplicity man, simplicity. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:05:47 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203162540.008fbde8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:25:40 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Proposed Changes 1.3 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 611 Lines: 30 At 15:43 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> Nope, it's just their directory editor :) >> >> (never had any probs with the one I wrote for MSDOS) > >.. but then again you wrote your own snapshot copier - which probably >corrected the file length info in the header when you copied the >snapshots .. hmm? :) Nope... it just did: FOR T=0 to 79 PRINT "INSERT SOURCE DISK" PAUSE FOR S=1 to 10 READ AT 1,T,S,32768+(S*10) NEXT S PRINT "INSERT DEST DISK" PAUSE FOR S=1 TO 10 WRITE AT 1,T,S,32768+(s*10) NEXT S NEXT T or some such... it didn't take 160 disk swaps though, I remember that much :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:09:44 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203162736.009bd66c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:27:36 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Retyping files Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 183 Lines: 6 All this retyping argument becomes moot when you stick the file-type in the file itself. Then you can treat the file as ordinary data and do whatever you like with it!!!!!!!! Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:25:36 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612031701.RAA06850@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS syntax is fun!? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:01:32 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1143 Lines: 42 >you meant: >RUN "prog",x,y,z >I'm sure... So am I...! >>The '*' should, in my opinion be used to complete the rest of a filename >>upto the next '.' (end of field) operator. It should not, as Bob said be >>used to fill in the start of the field i.e. "*er" is not acceptable. The >>'.' operater however starts a whole new field so "*.er" and >>"h*.el*.*.p*" should be valid. >Why not "*er"? It's no different to "*.er" really... If you view the filename as being composed of may seperate fields, each seperated by a '.' then it is completely different. The '*' opperator can only be used to complete a single field of stuff. so... "hello.there.glen.of.the.tree" could be worked out from... "hello.the*.gl*.o*.*.tr*" but not from... "hello.*ere.glen.of.the.tree" I am not saying that this is the best way of doing it, It is a comprimise perspective. It is annoying in that if you have 2 files.. "hot.too" "cold" ERASE "*" would only be able to kill the "cold". In this light, it is a bad perspective. I personally think we should have more control over the directory from within a BASIC program but more of that another time. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:27:42 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203164142.0090af18@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:41:42 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 429 Lines: 14 At 16:36 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> Why not "*er"? It's no different to "*.er" really... >Oops. Forgot to add, if you have a file called >larger >then dir "*.er" returns nowt. However dir "*er" returns larger >(assuming the * command is implemented in this way) Actually, I meant there's no conceptual difference really -- other than that your version (only allow "*.") reduces flexibility. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:27:51 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203164141.0090bf90@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 16:41:41 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 368 Lines: 15 At 16:35 03/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> Why not "*er"? It's no different to "*.er" really... > >Chunk, yes it is. Try typing dir "*.er" on a sam when you have files >like 1.er, kevin.er, blech.er. Then try typing dir "*er". Does it >work? (didn't for me) And your point is? Just because it doesn't work now, doesn't mean it can't work later. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:40:32 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612031645.QAA06792@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:45:16 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2597 Lines: 72 >Anyway, what's wrong with my suggestion of having quite a long string >of bytes as the FILETYPE? This could then just be printed in ASCII >on the directory listing. An application could simply invent a >meaningful filetype for it's file's - such as "SAM Word - Document >file". This filetype wouldn't be part of the Filename though, so it >wouldn't need entering every time the file was manipulated. Do we want 5000 different filetypes? All of the diskspace we will waste having hundreds of copys of "BASIC program /start" How could we possibly get a directory of all of the GIF pictures on a disk? CAT "~GIF pictures" ? thats a fair bit longer than CAT "~GIF" If you make the descrition of the file "GIF" then you gain nothing over the 'it displays the 4 character code if the type is not found on the DOS' method anyway and lose the nice richer descrition in the directory anyway. If there is no standard set of titles then every single graphical application that can save pictures in GIF format could choise to have a different filetype! How easy would that make it for the user! "Gif picture /len" "GIF pricture /len" "Gif picture" "Grapahics -GIF" "GIF graphics" "GIF screen" "GIF image" "Gif image" "Compuserve Image Format" "Flash -GIF" "GIF" "GIF." "gif" "Gif" Even if we have a standard way of chosing them there will be small differences by different programmers (expecialy thoes who cannot spell!). I don't think that idea would work too well in practice. >>> This person needs to update their DOS, but can still see >>> a usefull name for the new file type. >> >> Blech, update the dos? So every time a new file type comes out, or is >> used by almost anything, you gotta go through the whole flick switch, >> change sram, flick switch back process? >> Eek New file types are not going to come out very often! We choose a fair number of very general ones NOW. They are to be used as a guide, not as a definition of the file -that is what the filename is for! In the event of a filetype we had not predicted, the 4 letter identifier is displayed anyway, these must be chosen cunningly so the user knows exactly what the file is all about. There is no real need for the user to upgrade their DOS ever, a directory would just look a little nicer and be a little more informative if they did. 4 letters is more than enough to describe something, the possibility of having a more fuller description is a bonus. Again, the real fear is the possibility of people illegaly using 4 letter identifiers for their own files that they have not been 'licenced'. Numb. From imc Tue Dec 3 17:50:08 1996 Subject: Re: File types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:50:08 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612031633.AA19463@turner.cursci.co.uk> from "Keith Turner" at Dec 3, 96 04:33:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 342 Lines: 11 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:33:12 GMT, Keith Turner said: > PS ; *.ps ; "%!PS"@0 ; Adobe PostScript Only the first two of those characters are required. > P.S. Criticisms of my spelling of the word "disk" will be treated with the > contempt they deserve. Can I criticise your spelling of the word "its"? :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:52:38 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:28:09 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to DOS and ROM In-Reply-To: <961203063715_1252961652@emout08.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1483 Lines: 39 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> No, you miss the point, this is not the operating system for the > >>Z380, that come much futher down the road. This is one step to giving > >> us the tools to develop the Z380 based system. > >> Bob. > > > >I hardly think people will be writing the SamSon system software in Basic. > > > >Andrew > > Oh don't be so stupid. > As I've said, you can't develop the Z380 until we at least have the tools - > an they need a stable, integrated system to run on with good hard drive > support. > > Bob. Why does the Z80 system need to be rewritten? To develop the Z380 system software we need (a Z380 and) an assembler, and that's probably about it. A hard drive would be a luxury, but fortunately HDOS is available for the current Sam. We don't NEED anything to be rewritten, until the Z380 comes along with its expanded instruction set and flat memory system. Only then will the effort of writing a new system be justified. If you are saying that everything will need to be written twice, you can count me out the first time around. And as I've said, the extra processing is probably one of the more important things to be thinking of. I understand the reasons for keeping the processor board seperate from the memory board (for future extendability) but the Z380 board should be designed NOW, in conjunction with the memory, and probably both would be sold together. NB any progress in getting hold of Z380 manuals? Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:52:38 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612031731.RAA06965@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS syntax is fun!? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:31:42 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 145 Lines: 8 > HOw about LOAD "blarg" to load a BASIC program? > > Simplicity man, simplicity. :o) You know what I mean! T'was a worst case analysis! Numb. From imc Tue Dec 3 17:52:52 1996 Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:52:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Dec 3, 96 01:24:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 311 Lines: 8 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:24:09 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > Oh, btw, does the LBYTE(?), SBYTE(?) and associated hookcodes (opening > files etc for loading single bytes) work in SAMDOS2? I don't know, because as far as I know the hook code for opening a file in the first place doesn't work properly! imc From imc Tue Dec 3 17:54:29 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:54:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dave Hooper" at Dec 3, 96 01:55:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 726 Lines: 18 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:55:38 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > > > CLI: cd /foo and BASIC: DIR="/foo" > > > > rm test ERASE "test" > > > > prog x y z OPEN TO 10: LOAD "prog" CODE 32768: CALL > > > > 32768,x,y,z > Maybe: cd, what does that stand for, says the normal person > DIR, thinks the normal person, hey, maybe that's short for directory, > I've heard of them > ERASE, thinks the normal person, hey! I know what that does! > rm, what the #### ? says the normal person So change the words then. It still doesn't change the fact that the syntax is a lot less fiddly. And "what on earth is PATH", thinks the normal person... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 17:58:24 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:11:37 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612031711.AA19496@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 493 Lines: 13 > > Why not "*er"? It's no different to "*.er" really... > Oops. Forgot to add, if you have a file called > larger > then dir "*.er" returns nowt. However dir "*er" returns larger > (assuming the * command is implemented in this way) :P Yuck! This is a weird DOSism. Would we break anything if we treated dot as just another filename character, and not a wildcard field seperator? I mean in practice, not in theory. (There isn't a lot of MasterBasic code out there, after all). / X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Disc/k In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1402 Lines: 45 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > > a) Font > > > > If you spell 'font' as 'font' but 'disk' as 'disc' then you are > > inconsistent, and thus have no right to impose on us your interpretation > > of computing terms. > > How is that inconsistent?! Because you are using English spellings (disc) when you feel like it and Computing spellings (font) when you don't. > I have kept quiet on the disc/k matter so far, but I canny take > it no more! A vinyl record is a disc. The earth is a disc (not > a sphere as some people suppose). A flat, round thing is a > disc. None of them are disks! What I put into the disk drive is, essentially, a square piece of plastic. That isn't a disc. And I would accept your argument that inside the plastic casing there is a magnetic disc. But, aside from the fact that 'disk' is a world-wide accepted computing term, we can make a logical distinction between the diskette (disk) and the magnetic medium (disc). For example: Disk is write protected Being write protected is a feature of the plastic casing, and not of the magnetic data. So the disk is write protected, not the disc, so that means this spelling of disk is correct. For example: Insert source disk It would be silly to insert a disc unless you are inserting a disk. So 'insert source disc' would be a silly request. > Let's hear no more nonsense on the matter! Quite. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:07:45 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612031728.RAA06953@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:28:29 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2597 Lines: 56 > Take for instance a GIF image. It's name is > > steam.gif >space in the filename before that is possible. The final arbitrator is >whether the contents of the file make sense in the application. That >means the SAMSON will support an infinite number of different file >formats, where Windows (and DOS) only support about a million different >file types, and Macintoshes four thousand million different file types. > >Or we could restrict the SAMSON to only 65 thousand file types, and incur >a lot of red-tape, making it automatically less flexible than Windows or >MacOS from day one. Yup, you have completely missed the point! Assuming you havent deleted all of your old messages you are likely to find one or two from me declaring 'POWER TO THE PROGRAMMER!' too recently. Absolutely no one is sugesting that we ban people from giving extensions after a '.' Infact we all think it is a great idea. I was simply suggesting an extra 'bonus' feature of having nice short descriptive descritions in a directory and a ability to get a catalog and manipulate the files using these handy identifiers. This will in no way limit the use of extensions, just add to general descriptive nature of it and make it more pleasant to use. Surpose we make the filetypes more broad than I fugured would be wanted, and we had a filetype 'SCR' that includes all static picture formats, give it a directory description 'Static picture, len/LENGTH'. Then you could look at your graphics folder and discover that you have all sorts of folders in there... ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ ********************************************************************** 1) Grobo 123 BASIC Program, Start line 9998 2) steam.gif 56 Static Picture, len 746846 3) train.tiff 273 Static Picture, len 2835636 4) choochoo.gif 38 Animation, len 27846 aha! You can clealy see the Basic program, the different static pictures that where compressed in different ways, and the brand new animated gif you downloaded the other day that is still a .gif file but is actualy a gif99d and contains a number of frames of animation and a playback speed. You want to erase all of the static prictures as you have seen them a million times... ERASE "~SCR" and leave the other 2 files as they are. It will rarely be usefull like this but it can only make things simpler. Exactly how big should the categrees be? I think this is a bit too high level to be usefull. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:08:15 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961203172837.009b99ac@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 17:28:37 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re:SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 475 Lines: 12 File types are implemented for the BASIC OS in the SAM as it stands. A new system with identification for files produced by wordprocessor X (for example) would view the file as a Data file, with the file type specified *within* the file's data, so that a program could come along and go "ahhhhhh.... I *recognise* that" and use it. The 4 char ID's are also useful for GUI's so that you can register a format they can recognise for graphical display of directories. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:08:36 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:47:48 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam-users Subject: Various DOS / OS points Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1633 Lines: 45 Some general comments... 1) Memory rules / guidelines We need a system call which will politely quit all current applications (thus saving changed files etc) after which your program can do what the it likes with screen and program memory. 2) Operating levels I suspect that the system software will need to be completely rewritten to accommodate the major changes which have been suggested. It would be preferable that different sections could be completed by different programmers, so a totally integrated system would be difficult to arrange. In fact since it makes the coding easier, I would prefer that internally, BASIC and DOS were completely separate. HOWEVER the user doesn't necessarily need to know this, and I do think it is a great advantage that the syntax of BASIC and DOS is combined. Who cares that Basic traditionally has no Dos functions? Who cares that Dos has never been a programming language? We want to design a system which should be as easy to use as possible, and a built-in 'Programming language and file handler IN ONE!!!!' is a good way to do that. 3) File extensions Bob has obviously dug himself into an extraordinarily large hole if not even Nev will agree with him. 4) Who's going to do it anyway? Much of this discussion is superfluous, since Bob is unlikely ever to convince Simon, Ian, Nev, me etc that his syntax is best. And who will be writing these programs? Simon, Ian, Nev, me etc. And I doubt a program will get written if the programmer knows it is plainly idiotic. Of course, Bob could do it all himself with his twenty-odd years of programming experience..... Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:13:11 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:37:54 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re:SOS file types Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <350A4614372@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2886 Lines: 88 > >Anyway, what's wrong with my suggestion of having quite a long string > >of bytes as the FILETYPE? This could then just be printed in ASCII > >on the directory listing. An application could simply invent a > >meaningful filetype for it's file's - such as "SAM Word - Document > >file". This filetype wouldn't be part of the Filename though, so it > >wouldn't need entering every time the file was manipulated. > Do we want 5000 different filetypes? We could have more than 5000 like this. The advantage is, someone does have to approve every single file-type, as long as the programmer of the application makes it something HELPFULL! > All of the diskspace we will waste having hundreds of copys of > "BASIC program /start" So! People were suggesting 512 bytes for filenames! And how often would you use all 512, now THAT would be a waste of space, more so than say, 64 bytes for a completely customiseable file-type. > How could we possibly get a directory of all of the GIF pictures on a > disk? No, CAT "~GIF*" - Hah! > CAT "~GIF pictures" ? > thats a fair bit longer than CAT "~GIF" > If you make the descrition of the file "GIF" then you gain nothing over > the 'it displays the 4 character code if the type is not found on the DOS' > method anyway and lose the nice richer descrition in the directory anyway. As long as programmers make the first few characters the important ones. SAMWord Document I could live with CAT "~SAMword*", how often do you want to do this anyway? Not very, as you'll usually only want a list from WITHIN SAMword. If you're really worried about this, the last 4 bytes of the 64 or however many are used could be used in the way you've been saying.. i.e SAMword Document (SWDO) Then CAT "~SWDO" would work. > If there is no standard set of titles then every single > graphical application that can save pictures in GIF format could choise to > have a different filetype! How easy would that make it for the user! > "Gif picture /len" > "GIF pricture /len" > "Gif picture" > "Grapahics -GIF" > "GIF graphics" > "GIF screen" > "GIF image" > "Gif image" > "Compuserve Image Format" > "Flash -GIF" > "GIF" > "GIF." > "gif" > "Gif" > > Even if we have a standard way of chosing them there will be small > differences by different programmers (expecialy thoes who cannot spell!). Okay, so you'd have to have a standard way, but programmers not spelling would not be a problem, let's face it, the programmer will test his program on some already existing files and realise it doesn't work. We should make the filetypes NON-case sensitve anyway. > I don't think that idea would work too well in practice. It might do. Argue please.. Otherwise I'll feel I've made this email for no reason. ;) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:32:14 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:59:01 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Fo(u)nt In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 236 Lines: 10 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > Just a thought, is font of all knowledge actually fount of all > knowledge, or are the two phrases interchangeable, or what? Only if you want to say 'the typeface of all knowledge' Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:41:24 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:11:13 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961203131055_1454211769@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1679 Lines: 35 In a message dated 03/12/96 14:29:57, you write: >99% of people who hate Unix hate it bacause it has a different syntax to what >they are used to... Sounds like to me everyone here wants the same thing to >happen to SAMson.. > > I have spent the last ten years supporting Spectrum and then SAM users. Before that I spent several years working on mainframe and mini computers. The big advantage of Basic, and in particulat Sinclair Basic (on which of course SAM Basic is based) is that it is fairly easy to read - even someone who has had nothing to do with computers before can get to grips with Basic in a reasonable time-scale. But the more RULES you throw at them, the harder it is for them to grasp. If I say "well if its this case you give a list of numbers seperated by commas, if it that case you use semi colons, if it another case you do...." Well you get the idea. The more rules - the harder to learn - the longer the time spent rummaging through the manual - the longer before the user is confident. And if the user can't get confident in a reasonable time he/she will dump the idea and go spend their money on something else. Having rules that change from command to command also make it difficult for the parser. Or at least it means that it has to use lots of different rule-maskes to get things right. If commands for instance always have semi colons between perameters then you call one routine that unpacks from 0 to n parameters and returns telling you how many it has done and pointing to where they are. This makes the ROM system simpler and faster (well most of the time anyway). It also makes the Basic easier for people to get to grips with. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:41:25 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:11:14 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961203131047_939683513@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 945 Lines: 30 In a message dated 03/12/96 13:40:56, you write: >> When in MS-DOS you type DEL c:\mysub\myfile.bas you are enterings a drive >or >> device, a sub directory, a filename, and the file type/extension. It uses : >\ >> and . as delimiters. Not nice, three different delimiters in one line (four >> if you count the space after the DEL) no wonder MS-DOS is so shitty. > >Eh? What's so shitty about using many delimeters. If all the >delimeters were the same, would there not be a bigger problem? Or are >you suggesting the above command /should/ be implemented as >c: >cd \ >cd mysub >del myfile.bas > >followed by some 'miraculous' change directory back to where you >started, whichever drive / directory / subdirectory that may have >been... > > No, it should be DEL Device;path;filename;extension where ; could be , or / or \ dependent on the system, but in passing parameters to a command the delimiters should always be the same. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:41:36 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:11:02 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961203131052_1286546745@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 501 Lines: 13 In a message dated 03/12/96 14:28:33, you write: >> If a filename is "ANYNAME" then typing ERASE "*.CODE" will erase it if the >> standard rules are followed. > >No, because the "." delimits a different field and according to the above >the ".CODE" field still has to be matched. What current field? This is the problem, if you have two fields - the filename and the extension - then that would be OK, but if we want to make the syntax easy you cant have two fields within one set of quotes. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:42:14 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:11:34 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961203131052_1353548601@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 226 Lines: 10 In a message dated 03/12/96 14:28:41, you write: >Huh? You still say this after looking at the above? > >imc Yes. And I stick to it. Ok, SAM's use fo commands is not purrrfect - but at least most people can read it. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 3 18:44:01 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:13:27 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612031813.AA19590@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS file types Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 831 Lines: 23 > >we could restrict the SAMSON to only 65 thousand file types, and incur > >a lot of red-tape, making it automatically less flexible than Windows or > >MacOS from day one. > > Yup, you have completely missed the point! Perhaps. > Exactly how big should the categrees be? I think this is a bit too high > level to be usefull. Would you be satisfied by an extra column in my MAGIC.OS file giving a category for the file? PPM ; *.ppm ; "P1"@0 ; Portable Pixmap ; IMAGE GIF ; *.gif ; "GIF"@0 ; Compuserve Image ; COMPRESSED IMAGE JPEG ; *.jpg|*.jpeg|*.jfif ; "JFIF"@0 ; JPEG Format Image ; COMPRESSED IMAGE DOTZ ; *.Z ; 1FD9@0 ; Unix compress ; COMPRESSED GZIP ; *.gz ; 1FB8@0 ; Gnu ZIP ; COMPRESSED Is this what you had in mind? / Message-Id: <9612031819.AA19593@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Its Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 169 Lines: 7 > Can I criticise your spelling of the word "its"? :-) :) Yeah why not, go for it! / X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <961201140042_1650717721@emout16.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3622 Lines: 86 On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/12/96 15:00:08, you write: > > >Are you serious?? Guidelines yes, rules no. > > Enough people break the rules to make guidelines not worth the paper they get > written on. Not if they get completely slated for it. > >Anything which especially needs to be multitaskable, or runs under the > >GUI, or whatever, indeed does need to obey certain conventions. But what > >has been suggestted is a seperate level, which does not involve the GUI or > >the CLI. > > > >But if we are to ever have a chance of writing a game like DOOM or some > >other really fast, intensive application, the program has got to have > >close-to absolute control over the computer. If a programmer DOES know a > >better way round some problem, why stop him from using it? It makes no > >sense to deliberately restrict the programs in this way. > > Indeed, why stop him from doing what he wants? Because if we don't then you > have the situation you get on the PC where every program thinks IT IS GOD, > that it is the only program any sensible person could possible want to use. > So of it goes, writing all over the config files of both DOS and/or Windows > setting up the machine just for itself without a care in the world fro what > went on before it arrived on the scene or what will come after. a) Like I said first time around, we would insist that 'real' programs, ie utilities and anything multitaskable, obeyed rules to the letter. b) In the worst case, we are scribbling over internal memory. I've never heard of writing over CONFIG files, but in any case our equivalent will be stored on the SRAM, and the application can't alter that. c) Like I said before, we should introduce one rule for these independant programs: politely quit the other programs, and THEN you can mess about. > Bastard though Win95 is (spit, spit) at least it tries to keep programs in > check. We though will not have the advantage of masses of hardware and the > overload of Win95 to keep things in line - therefore RULES WILL HAVE TO BE > MADE. Ah, so hardware incompatabilities are and advantage now, are they? > >And what problems? > > Disc access (in particular with relation to protection routines). If the hook codes actually work, we won't need or want to do it ourselves > ROM calls (other than through the jump table). I hardly use the Rom at all, and the only time I have ever used an undocumented call was when a documented equivalent simply did not exist. I also included a message which was displayed if a previous ROM was installed, giving a dire warning not to continue runiing the program. > Programs that don't check the page allocation table. We have already established that memory allocation doesn't matter - I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MULTITASKABLE PROGRAMS. Resident applications will be potitely quit first. > Programs that don't even check what version of ROM+DOS is loaded. Well, that shouldn't matter, if everything will be done via hook codes and jump tables. Note that that will only be possible if the hook codes work and the jump table is complete. > That will do for starters. Main course? > Ok, we cannot pass a law that will prevent a programmer 'doing his own > thing', nor can we prevent him selling his wares to users. However, it would > be nice to lay down the rules and then agree that programs that stick to them > should have some form of recognized badge awarded. (Just an idea). I don't think there is anything wrong with taking over the system (provided it is done politely) if the program is better as a result. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 01:02:55 1996 Message-Id: <199612040100.BAA29188@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: BrenchleyR@aol.com Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMSON Character Set. Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 96 00:57:16 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 435 Lines: 19 On 1996/12/3 23:39:3 you wrote: > >I would like to propose the adoption of the ANSI character set for SAM. >Codes 0-31 are used as special codes (some peculiar to SAMSON) >Codes 32 to 255 use the standard ANSI set. > >Comments anyone? > >Bob. > > Good idea in principle, but surely it would mean some compatability problems, unless there is someway to select the character set standard in operation. Comments anyone? David Ledbury From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 08:58:35 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961204085857.008ee6f8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 08:58:57 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 275 Lines: 9 At 13:11 03/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >What current field? This is the problem, if you have two fields - the >filename and the extension - then that would be OK, but if we want to make >the syntax easy you cant have two fields within one set of quotes. Easy for whom? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 09:02:11 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:00:06 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612040900.AA12058@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 404 Lines: 17 > No, it should be DEL Device;path;filename;extension > where ; could be , or / or \ dependent on the system, but in passing > parameters to a command the delimiters should always be the same. So...you want DEL D1/usr/local/bin/readme/txt instead of DEL D1:/usr/local/bin/readme.txt Which one is more readable? -Frode PS: Please - the extension is part of the filename, not a separate attribute. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 09:40:18 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 04:38:01 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961204043800_906248772@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2494 Lines: 77 In a message dated 03/12/96 15:13:54, you write: >) > >I have but two questions. >1)Why was INK on the speccy changed to PEN on the SAM? Ok, can answer that one. On the Spectrum you had 16 colours (well 15 anyway) so each had an INK number. INK 6 always produced yellow sothere was no problem. However, on SAM it was felt that PEN would be a more logical choice because each PEN could actually be set to any colour (ink). >2)Why was CAT on the speccy changed to DIR on the SAM? Never did find out - Bruce just wanted to bugger us up... > >Was it change for the sake of change or was there a valid reason? >I was annoyed when I had to start writing DIR instead of CAT. >I prefered CAT. So do I and that is why it is changing back. As I said before, you CATalogue a directory. > > > >And, for the GO__SUB and GO_TO argument, do we also want to change >DEF_PROC, END_IF and about a million others? DEF PROC and the like have spaces in ANSII standard basic GOTO and GOSUB do not. > >It does get a bit annoying with the spaces expecially in END_IF, but then >again, it looks nice to have DEF_PROC seperated. >Why don't we have a vote at the end of next week. Gives plenty of time for >Bob and Co. to state exactly which and what commands they think we >should change. > >The '*' should, in my opinion be used to complete the rest of a filename >upto the next '.' (end of field) operator. It should not, as Bob said be >used to fill in the start of the field i.e. "*er" is not acceptable. The >'.' operater however starts a whole new field so "*.er" and "h*.el*.*.p*" >should be valid. It goes against the rules, but I may have to put up with it. > > >Last but not least, we have a simple choice > >PATH "D1:basic/": LOAD D1:"TreeGlen" "BAS" >PATH "D1:basic/": LOAD D1:"TreeGlen~BAS" >PATH "D1:basic/": LOAD "D1:TreeGlen" "BAS" >PATH "D1:basic/": LOAD "D1:TreeGlen~BAS" > >PATH D1:"basic/": LOAD D1:"TreeGlen" "BAS" >PATH D1:"basic/": LOAD D1:"TreeGlen~BAS" >PATH D1:"basic/": LOAD "D1:TreeGlen" "BAS" >PATH D1:"basic/": LOAD "D1:TreeGlen~BAS" > >LOAD D1:basic/:"TreeGlen" "BAS" >LOAD D1:basic/:"TreeGlen~BAS" >LOAD D1:"basic/TreeGlen" "BAS" >LOAD D1:"basic/TreeGlen~BAS" >LOAD D1:"basic/":"TreeGlen" "BAS" >LOAD D1:"basic/":"TreeGlen~BAS" >LOAD "D1:basic/TreeGlen" "BAS" >LOAD "D1:basic/TreeGlen~BAS" > >I cannot decide. >Numb. Prefer to have LOAD Dn"filename" BAS where filename can include a path (because that is part of a filename) but there is nothing else within the quotes. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 11:17:15 1996 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199612041039.KAA09237@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Character Set. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:39:00 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1417 Lines: 34 >Good idea in principle, but surely it would mean some compatability problems, >unless there is someway to select the character set standard in operation. > >Comments anyone? > I like the current set as I used to it. I see little point in changing, If a terminal program wants to emulate a VTxxxx then I surpose the text editor would need to be able to surport a ANSI set. I wouldn't grumble too much if we did change though. what will happen to the user defined graphics (UDGs)? The UDGs where implemented much better on the speccy to the SAM, no need to worry about daft block switching or the dificultys in accessing the characters from the keyboard. ANSI will mess it up even worse if we are not carefull. Talking of selecting the charcter set, we should get clearer on the line between the BASIC and the GUI. I hope that the same set of character sets will be used on both. i.e. if you choose an extreme Gothic font for use in the GUI then quit back to BASIC, the gothic font will still be in use here, the CLI. The same goes for the KEY and DEFKEYCODE. If we decide to make the cursor keys act at the F0,F1,F2,F3 and make these function keys act as the cursors within BASIC then load the GUI, I would like to be able to scroll about the desktop using using the function keys. GiMon gets a tad hard to use when me' keys are playing up! >David Ledbury Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 11:17:18 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:41:13 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Dave Hooper" at Dec 3, 96 01:55:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 790 Lines: 27 > Maybe: cd, what does that stand for, says the normal person > DIR, thinks the normal person, hey, maybe that's short for directory, > I've heard of them > ERASE, thinks the normal person, hey! I know what that does! > rm, what the #### ? says the normal person > No, come on - when someone buys a computer they have to find out what discs are, what a command line is, what files are, what directories are..... and so they are perfectly capable of finding out what rm is. If I didn't have a manual and I was going to try intuition, I could use any of these: erase *.gif delete *.gif eradicate *.gif remove *.gif scratch *.gif rub-out *.gif vaporise *.gif get_rid_of *.gif Mr.Computer_would_you_please_remove *.gif from_my_disc_thankyou and how am I to know which one is right? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 11:17:20 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:55:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961204043800_906248772@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 4, 96 04:38:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 426 Lines: 11 > >Was it change for the sake of change or was there a valid reason? > >I was annoyed when I had to start writing DIR instead of CAT. > >I prefered CAT. > > So do I and that is why it is changing back. As I said before, you CATalogue > a directory. > Regardless of whether CAT/DIR is more appropriate, can't you see from your own experience that there will be hundreds of annoyed SAM users having to chande from DIR to CAT? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 11:17:21 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:04:11 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612041104.AA12128@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Next Glouchester show? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 155 Lines: 7 Hi. Have a date been set for the next glouchester show? Pretty-please, say it's on the 19-20th April. I have a nice seminar in London that week. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 11:17:23 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Disc/k To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:49:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Dec 3, 96 05:17:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 839 Lines: 25 > For example: Disk is write protected > > Being write protected is a feature of the plastic casing, and not of the > magnetic data. So the disk is write protected, not the disc, so that > means this spelling of disk is correct. No, the magnetic bit is write protected - you don't write any [digital] data on the plastic casing, hence you can't protect it from being written on. > For example: Insert source disk > > It would be silly to insert a disc unless you are inserting a disk. So > 'insert source disc' would be a silly request. > Eh? It'd certainly be ridiculous to insert a "disk" without the "disc". The packaging of the disc is irrelevant - we don't start calling them a "disk-in-a-disk-carrying-box" when they're in a box, do we? And I don't think I've heard "disk-in-a-disk-carrying-box -in-my-briefcase" yet! -Andy From imc Wed Dec 4 11:45:38 1996 Subject: Re: Next Glouchester show? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:45:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612041104.AA12128@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Dec 4, 96 12:04:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 243 Lines: 8 On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:04:11 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > Have a date been set for the next glouchester show? Pretty-please, > say it's on the 19-20th April. I have a nice seminar in London > that week. And I am in Germany that week... imc From imc Wed Dec 4 12:28:34 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:28:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961203131055_1454211769@emout15.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 3, 96 01:11:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1293 Lines: 33 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:11:13 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Before that I spent several years working on mainframe and mini computers. > The big advantage of Basic, and in particulat Sinclair Basic (on which of > course SAM Basic is based) is that it is fairly easy to read - even someone > who has had nothing to do with computers before can get to grips with Basic > in a reasonable time-scale. Of course the same (and more?) can be said of Rexx, and it has the advantage that you can make up any variable name you choose without having to worry about the existence of almost 200 reserved words, some of which you may never have a use for... > But the more RULES you throw at them, the harder it is for them to grasp. > Having rules that change from command to command also make it difficult for > the parser. Rules? Who's talking about rules? What are you on about? Oh, by the way, if we are on about rules, how about the fact that in LET p2=3 PRINT p2 PAPER p2 DRAW p2,p2 in fact just about any line of BASIC you care to name, p2 is the name of a variable unless it is in quotes. But you want to introduce a command in which p2 is a literal. (I also think the syntax of the DEVICE command is bad for this reason, but it would appear to be too late to worry about that). imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 12:32:04 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:41:36 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Disc/k In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 516 Lines: 16 On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > > For example: Disk is write protected > > > > Being write protected is a feature of the plastic casing, and not of the > > magnetic data. So the disk is write protected, not the disc, so that > > means this spelling of disk is correct. > > No, the magnetic bit is write protected - you don't write > any [digital] data on the plastic casing, hence you can't protect > it from being written on. No, you slide a little tab in the corner of THE PLASTIC CASING. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 12:32:46 1996 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199612041113.LAA14463@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:13:07 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3160 Lines: 73 BOO! >Would you be satisfied by an extra column in my MAGIC.OS file giving a >category for the file? >PPM ; *.ppm ; "P1"@0 ; Portable Pixmap ; IMAGE >GIF ; *.gif ; "GIF"@0 ; Compuserve Image ; COMPRESSED IMAGE >JPEG ; *.jpg|*.jpeg|*.jfif ; "JFIF"@0 ; JPEG Format Image ; COMPRESSED IMAGE >DOTZ ; *.Z ; 1FD9@0 ; Unix compress ; COMPRESSED >GZIP ; *.gz ; 1FB8@0 ; Gnu ZIP ; COMPRESSED > >Is this what you had in mind? > />aha! You can clealy see the Basic program, the different static pictures >>that where compressed in different ways, and the brand new animated gif >>you downloaded the other day that is still a .gif file but is actualy a >>gif99d and contains a number of frames of animation and a playback speed. here the 2 .gif files would have the same extension. Where exactly would the magic.os file live? on every single disk (for thoes who do not own hard drives)? If you put this magic file on the DOS and choose which full description to use using some information in the directory entry but not the filename, leaving the choice of putting a .extension in the filename upto the user and/or the relevent application, so still maintaining a huge number of user filetypes in addition to the 'compulsory' ones... Then you would have what I am suggesting! Looking at your table of descriptions, may I offer a logical impovement? Yes? Thank you. Why don't we include tabs in the file description (whoevers system we go for) to include information relevent to the particular file type (asin BASIC) e.g. make JPEG Format Image into JPEG Format Image, len / Executable CODE file into Exectable, start /, len / etc. this makes them more readable in a directory. Of course the 2 methods (i.e. the magic.os on a hardrive for thoes who have them and mine) could co-exsist, could make the directory a bit wide though! I hope I have actualy said what I mean this time! Numb. :o) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 12:32:46 1996 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199612041128.LAA15641@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:28:34 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1241 Lines: 37 >> Do we want 5000 different filetypes? >We could have more than 5000 like this. :) We COULD have more than 5000 but would we want them? Would they stop being helpfull if there where thousands and thousands of different ones cluttering up the directory? Why not just have files such as... Grobo.funny picture made with SAMSONpaint >> How could we possibly get a directory of all of the GIF pictures on a >> disk? > >No, CAT "~GIF*" - Hah! >> "GIF image" -True >> "Compuserve Image Format" -Double Hah! >We should make the filetypes NON-case sensitve anyway. Which is nicer... ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ ********************************************************************** 1) nine 186 AMIGA IFF FILE, len 73048 Or... ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ ********************************************************************** 1) nine 186 Amiga IFF file, len 73048 The purpose of the types is for convenience, and attractiveness!? Numb. From imc Wed Dec 4 12:36:40 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:36:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Dec 3, 96 06:27:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 989 Lines: 19 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:27:26 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > b) In the worst case, we are scribbling over internal memory. I've never > heard of writing over CONFIG files, but in any case our equivalent will be > stored on the SRAM, and the application can't alter that. Config files, if stored on the SRAM, should surely be writeable. I don't think the user wants to switch an inaccessible switch every time he decides to change his default background colour. > If the hook codes actually work, we won't need or want to do it ourselves I'd just like to point out that although the "load sector" hook code does actually work if there is a disk in (if there is no disk it just hangs), it is rather slow. The reason for this is that it loads the sector in a buffer area and then copies it to your required destination. And that destination can only be in pages 0-2 so if you want it anywhere else you need another LDIR. By this time the disk has gone way past the next sector. imc From imc Wed Dec 4 12:42:17 1996 Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:42:17 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961204043800_906248772@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 4, 96 04:38:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 350 Lines: 9 On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 04:38:01 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > >The '*' should, in my opinion be used to complete the rest of a filename > >upto the next '.' (end of field) operator. > It goes against the rules, but I may have to put up with it. ^^^^^^^^^ I refer the honourable member to the comment I made some moments ago. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 13:07:30 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:10:07 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <486056C95@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 479 Lines: 8 > Just because it doesn't work now, doesn't mean it can't work later. Indeed. But dir "*er" should return more files than dir "*.er", shurely (ie, those ending in er without the . delimeter preceeding the er) +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 13:17:28 1996 From: James R Curry To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:16:34 GMT Subject: Re: SOS file types X-Confirm-Reading-To: "James R Curry" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.40 (NDS) Message-Id: <36449AF3242@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1717 Lines: 45 > >> Do we want 5000 different filetypes? > > >We could have more than 5000 like this. > > :) We COULD have more than 5000 but would we want them? > Would they stop being helpfull if there where thousands and thousands of > different ones cluttering up the directory? Why not just have files such as... > Grobo.funny picture made with SAMSONpaint Expandability, if in the future this thing was ever to become popular, we'd have hundreds of programmers writing applications, and they'd be inventing file-types, and for the user who owns some of these applications, it would be usefull if the directory showed EXACTLY what type of file each one was. > > >> How could we possibly get a directory of all of the GIF pictures on a > >> disk? > > > >No, CAT "~GIF*" - Hah! > > >> "GIF image" -True > >> "Compuserve Image Format" -Double Hah! "Compuserve Image Format (GIF)" CAT "~GIF" Triple Hah! > >We should make the filetypes NON-case sensitve anyway. > Which is nicer... > ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ > No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ > ********************************************************************** > 1) nine 186 AMIGA IFF FILE, len 73048 > > > Or... > ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ > No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ > ********************************************************************** > 1) nine 186 Amiga IFF file, len 73048 Obviously non CAPS looks nicer, but I meant that "AMIGA IFF FILE" = "Amiga IFF file" from the users point of view. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 13:20:00 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:18:43 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <4AA2B710C@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 714 Lines: 15 > > So do I and that is why it is changing back. As I said before, you CATalogue > > a directory. > > > > Regardless of whether CAT/DIR is more appropriate, can't you see > from your own experience that there will be hundreds of annoyed > SAM users having to chande from DIR to CAT? I think dir should stay. Who uses CAT apart from Spectrums? (This is a serious question, 'tain't rhetorical) If you like you could use cat, dir and ls (maybe) +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 13:22:20 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:21:15 +0000 Subject: Re: Disc/k Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <4B534220B@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 411 Lines: 8 > No, you slide a little tab in the corner of THE PLASTIC CASING. ... which write-protects the DISC - by a mechanical method on the DISK ;) +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 13:38:51 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961204133708.008fb7c4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 13:37:08 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 623 Lines: 20 >Why don't we include tabs in the file description (whoevers system we go for) >to include information relevent to the particular file type (asin BASIC) >e.g. make > >JPEG Format Image into JPEG Format Image, len / >Executable CODE file into Exectable, start /, len / > >etc. >this makes them more readable in a directory. No it won't. Not unless you're running in 128 column mode. >Of course the 2 methods (i.e. the magic.os on a hardrive for thoes who >have them and mine) could co-exsist, could make the directory a bit wide >though! And taking up unfeasible amounts of space. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 13:39:47 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961204133706.008e5be4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 13:37:06 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 478 Lines: 16 At 13:10 04/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> Just because it doesn't work now, doesn't mean it can't work later. > >Indeed. But dir "*er" should return more files than dir "*.er", shurely >(ie, those ending in er without the . delimeter preceeding the er) Yes, it will... I think I may not have been clear in the point I was trying to make; namely that programming something to handle "*.er" is as easy as programming something to handle "*er" if done right. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 13:44:33 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961204134233.008fa2c0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 13:42:33 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 883 Lines: 28 At 13:16 04/12/96 GMT, you wrote: >> >> How could we possibly get a directory of all of the GIF pictures on a >> >> disk? >> > >> >No, CAT "~GIF*" - Hah! >> >> >> "GIF image" -True >> >> "Compuserve Image Format" -Double Hah! >"Compuserve Image Format (GIF)" >CAT "~GIF" Triple Hah! DIR "*.gif" would do the job quite happily, thangyewverymuch. The .GIF extension is now quite firmly fixed for GIF images, and is used independently of the underlying filesystem by everything from web browsers to graphics handling software. Simon ps. Don't like this CAT "~GIF*" syntax -- for one reason: I'm not going to write the COPY function which handles copying GIF files from other machines and then has to sort out the extensions in the directory space between "animated gif" and whathaveyou. You're going to end up with a COPY command that takes up >64K at this rate. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 14:04:26 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:04:18 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <56D0C0D62@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 647 Lines: 14 > >Indeed. But dir "*er" should return more files than dir "*.er", shurely > >(ie, those ending in er without the . delimeter preceeding the er) > > Yes, it will... > > I think I may not have been clear in the point I was trying to make; namely > that programming something to handle "*.er" is as easy as programming > something to handle "*er" if done right. Hokay, gotcha +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 14:10:41 1996 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199612041406.OAA03523@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:06:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <36449AF3242@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Dec 4, 96 01:16:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2950 Lines: 60 > > :) We COULD have more than 5000 but would we want them? > > Would they stop being helpfull if there where thousands and thousands of > > different ones cluttering up the directory? Why not just have files > such as... > > Grobo.funny picture made with SAMSONpaint > > Expandability, if in the future this thing was ever to become > popular, we'd have hundreds of programmers writing applications, and > they'd be inventing file-types, and for the user who owns some of > these applications, it would be usefull if the directory showed > EXACTLY what type of file each one was. > But with so many different applications producing so many different types of file, it would be nice to see at a glance which ones are screens, which ones are speccy games, which ones are animations, which are applications, etc... Even if the thousands have great descriptive titles it would be messier... ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ ********************************************************************** 1) nine.iff 186 Amiga IFF file len 73048 2) lice.gif 76 Compuserve GIF, len 2834 3) purpleOnes.gif 376 Compuserve GIF, len 12842 4) Psychology.dim 23 Denton write page len 3549 5) miceRun.iff 99 Amiga IFF file len 864 6) tree.sPt 568 SAMSONpaint picture, len 3853 7) ten.des 37 Dessad vers.6.9 text len 644 8) Grobo.barry 35 Barry-art graphics len 2574 The types are locked to the .exe extension! Or... ********************* SAMSON DOS version X ************************* No.Name ************** len.************** type *********************** ********************************************************************** 1) nine.iff 186 Static Graphics, len 73048 2) lice.gif 76 Animation sequence, len 2834 3) purpleOnes.gif 376 Static Graphics, len 12842 4) Psychology.dim 23 TEXT document, len 2745 5) miceRun.iff 99 Animation sequence, len 864 6) tree.sPt 568 Static Graphics, len 3853 7) ten.des 37 TEXT document, len 644 8) Grobo.barry 35 Static Graphics, len 2574 This is probably too high a level, but you get the point? If the file type identifiers are 3 or 4 upper case letters long we would still get more than 26*26*26*27=474552 different file types, of course only a subset of these would provide useful 4 letter descriptions of file types! Numb. (we could therefore compress this into 3 bytes in the directory if we wanted) (STUPID COMMENT:If we represent these in 4 bytes We could easily include lower case letters and symbols in the file types if we use EXTREME high level identifiers!, if we go for ANSI that would be approx. 256^4 combinations!) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 14:59:54 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:51:04 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to DOS and ROM Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <181EFA45DB6@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2940 Lines: 94 > [CUT] > >Bad idea. It's handy to be able to use extensions to separate files into > >classes. > Use prefixes then, or use the filetype if we can agree on a syntax. BUT NEVER > put anything AFTER the * because it is WRONG. Don't know if this has been covered or not (I'm about 270 messages behind!) but I like file extensions and use them quite frequently. They're handy for doing quick DIR's with the "*.TXT" to see what text files I've got ona particular disk and I love them for it. Abolish them at your peril. > [CUT] > >WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY? > >Give *ONE* good reason for doing so. > Because you CATalogue the directory, you do not produce a DIRectory of the > directory. Completely pedantic - it's like the old INK/PEN thing that was in teh original ROM. If PEN was to be the standard, why allow INK to be inputted? And you may well CATalogue the directory, but what you look at on the screen is the DIRectory - and I think it should stay that way. We are just creating extra work for ourselves... > >>1.4 LOAD @ and SAVE @ as valid alternative to READ AT and WRITE AT. > > > >+D syntax... > True, I liked this when it first went in (about 1992) but I'm not too sue > now. > > > >>1.5 LOAD Pn loads the file at Position 'n' on the current disc/sub > >directory. > > > >+D syntax again. Fond of the +D are you? > > Yes I am, in many ways its system was a lot more logical. LOAD Pn stands for > LOAD the file from Position N in the current directory, on SAM it became LOAD > n - n what? n bytes? n cats? Surely as long as the user knows, it doesn't matter a jot. > > > >> > [CUT] > >>4.4 Cut down versions of DSTAT (options 1 & 2) and FSTAT (option 1) as > >>detailed in the MasterDOS manual. > > > >Why cut down? > > The intention when this was written was still to market MasterDOS as an > upgrade, I doubt that that will now hold true. > > > >>4.5 Provide variables to be copied to SVARs 14 & 15 on boot up. > > > >Which ones are they again? > > Right hand margin for LPRINT (14) and number of line feeds to send after a > carrage return (15) > These are the two most peoples AUTO file resets. > > This feature may not be needed in the new system. > > > [CUT] > >The "old" syntax is better than your proposed new one, which is just a +D > >one anyway. > > I hope that after reading this you will now come to change your mind. > > > > >>SAMROM V4.0 > >>Section 1. Syntax Changes. > >> > >>1.1Alter following keywords:- > >>GO TO becomes GOTO > >>GO SUB " GOSUB > >>DIR " CAT > > > >Why? Other than saving 2 bytes? > > Because that extra space in GO TO and GO SUB is just about the most annoying > thing I've ever come across. Completely pedantic...again. A needless change. > >Simon > > Thanks for you comments Simon, working hard on a Sunday I see. > > Bob. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:17:14 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:10:04 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961204111004_807352799@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3668 Lines: 82 In a message dated 04/12/96 09:02:23, you write: >So...you want > >DEL D1/usr/local/bin/readme/txt > >instead of > >DEL D1:/usr/local/bin/readme.txt > >Which one is more readable? > > -Frode > >PS: Please - the extension is part of the filename, not a separate attribute. > > The first is more readable if you consider the extension NOT to be part of the filename. If, on the other hand the extension IS part of the filename then we have to look at and say "how do we specify the syntax that will allow this to be treated as a unified filename in one situation, but at the same time allow it to be treated as two separate things in another situation?" That is the problem. SAM Basic allows too many exceptions to rules. What I am seeking to do is to more strongly DEFINE the syntax, ultimately in something like 'Bacus Naur' notation, so that instead of sitting down and writing the interpreter for the Z380 (or A.N.Other processor) we can chuck it at a compiler generator and let it do the work. Now despite what Andrew Collier thinks, the rules haven't changed and they are not old fashioned. Ok many systems may have themselves bent the rules, and even broken them and set their own rules, but that does not make the new rules right. His comment that "Much of this discussion is superfluous, since Bob is unlikely ever to convince Simon, Ian, Nev, me etc that his syntax is best. And who will be writing these programs? Simon, Ian, Nev, me etc. And I doubt a program will get written if the programmer knows it is plainly idiotic. Of course, Bob could do it all himself with his twenty-odd years of programming experience....." is just about the most childish comment he has ever made on this list. So, if it isn't done HIS way he won't play - Ahhh didums nasty men not want to play your game. The truth is: IF WE WANT THINGS TO HAPPEN THEN WE HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER. And that means that a couple of people have to come down off their high horses and accept that the thing has to be 'managed' and that as such there will be times when they will have to do as they are told. I have spent a good deal of my time trying to explain what I was talking about - but it has gone in one ear and out the other. I said right at the top of the posting regarding syntax that it was written several years ago, I don't claim to be right all the time - but if people will not even open their minds and think about what is being said then how can we move forward? We have to look at things with a view to those potential users who are not programmers. The need as much help as we can give them. Power users can have TSRs that implement 'quick and dirty' routes to what they want to do - there needs come way down the list when it comes to designing the expanded SAM because, if we built for them then the cost per machine is going to be thousands not hundreds of pounds. I have given the reasons for change, I have justified each of the main points (file command syntax, wild card characters, and changes to the PROC structure) but many of the replies have taken the stance that either: don't like the new syntax so won't have it; or too much typing so I won't have it. I've yet to hear any reason WHY the syntax is not valid. Now please. Will everyone take a deep breath and engage brain before ranting off at this email. Let us have a little debate that at least shows that the person has understood the question. Bob. p.s. Has anyone taken the time to look at Nev's SRAM board yet? He is keen to save money if he can by having this board made at the same time as a fresh batch of the IDE boards. He had hoped to get feedback from some of you but so far nothing. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:28:16 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Disc/k To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:26:17 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Dec 4, 96 11:41:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 155 Lines: 8 > No, you slide a little tab in the corner of THE PLASTIC CASING. > Yes, and sliding that tab writes protects the DISC! Not the plastic casing!!! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:39:26 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Wild Cards. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:34:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961204111004_807352799@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 4, 96 11:10:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 128 Lines: 4 Could we have aliases so people can set up to have CAT if they prefer? It's save lots of room in my mailbox if we could! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:39:26 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <12984.199612041634@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Wild Cards. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:34:28 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961204111004_807352799@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 4, 96 11:10:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2190 Lines: 49 > What I am seeking to do is to more strongly DEFINE the syntax, ultimately in > something like 'Bacus Naur' notation, so that instead of sitting down and Usually called BNF, or Backus Naur Form. It's more suited to defining languages as well, I would have thought. > writing these programs? Simon, Ian, Nev, me etc. And I doubt a program will > get written if the programmer knows it is plainly idiotic. Of course, Bob He has a point. > The truth is: IF WE WANT THINGS TO HAPPEN THEN WE HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER. And > that means that a couple of people have to come down off their high horses > and accept that the thing has to be 'managed' and that as such there will be > times when they will have to do as they are told. Indeed. And, as you seem to be the /only/ person arguing in favour of this style of thing, are /you/ going to be the person to get off your high horse? Because if not, then I'm unlinking from this list right now - I'm not interested at all in a computer dominated by one person, which is basically what you'll be trying to do. > don't claim to be right all the time - but if people will not even open their > minds and think about what is being said then how can we move forward? So open yours! Accept that, in this case, maybe you should leave it alone! > I have given the reasons for change, I have justified each of the main points No - you've justified it as far as you think. Other people still aren't satisfied. > I've yet to hear any reason WHY the syntax is not valid. Bob, we're defining a new machine. Any syntax is going to be valid, for pete's sake. It's whether people like it and find it usable that's more important, and right at the moment it doesn't appear that people do. > Now please. Will everyone take a deep breath and engage brain before ranting > off at this email. Let us have a little debate that at least shows that the > person has understood the question. Question understood, but I'm afraid I'm rapidly losing patience with this thread - it should have finished long ago. > p.s. Has anyone taken the time to look at Nev's SRAM board yet? He is keen to I would do, but I wouldn't understand it anyway - sorry Nev! :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:39:26 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <13039.199612041635@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Disc/k To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:35:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Dec 4, 96 04:26:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 259 Lines: 9 > > > No, you slide a little tab in the corner of THE PLASTIC CASING. > > > > Yes, and sliding that tab writes protects the DISC! Not the > plastic casing!!! Who gives a monkeys?! You write as disc, I'll write as disk! No need to have an argument over it. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:39:29 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Wild Cards. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:33:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961204111004_807352799@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 4, 96 11:10:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 418 Lines: 11 > p.s. Has anyone taken the time to look at Nev's SRAM board yet? He is keen to > save money if he can by having this board made at the same time as a fresh > batch of the IDE boards. He had hoped to get feedback from some of you but so > far nothing. > I only had a quick look... I didn't actually look at the pinouts but will soon. At a glance it looked fine - but Nev may like to turn the battery around :) -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:39:29 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:37:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <7FB7F5BFC@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1201 Lines: 24 > I've yet to hear any reason WHY the syntax is not valid. It is possible to make any syntax valid. Different syntax obviously mean different end results and ultimately, from the point of view of everyone, the preferred syntax is the one that makes the most sense AND (and NOT or) is the easiest to use (and not necessarily implement) > Now please. Will everyone take a deep breath and engage brain before ranting > off at this email. Let us have a little debate that at least shows that the > person has understood the question. I understand perfectly. There exists more than one syntactical structure around for CLI commands, and the one we should pick should be the best. And the best one should I suppose be the one most people like. Syntactical structure is not written in stone. It's often nice to stick to a standard syntax, but it is NEVER necessary. And yes, EBNF syntax rules would help clarify the situation! +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:42:29 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Wild Cards. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:39:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <7FB7F5BFC@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Dec 4, 96 04:37:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 537 Lines: 12 Er,, this may already have been covered, so don't bite my head of if it has, but why do we need filetypes? As far as the SOD [a very good name, whoever suggested it!] is concerned could we not just have a binary file with the first, say, 16 bytes used as for identification. The SOD doesn't need to know whether a file is a screen file, a BASIC file, or a GUI file - only the BASIC interpreter needs to know if a file is a BASIC file or not, only the graphics viewer needs to know if a file is a screen file or not, and so on... -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 16:57:41 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:56:36 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <367F49B1305@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2443 Lines: 63 > > What I am seeking to do is to more strongly DEFINE the syntax, ultimately in > > something like 'Bacus Naur' notation, so that instead of sitting down and > > Usually called BNF, or Backus Naur Form. It's more suited to defining > languages as well, I would have thought. > > > writing these programs? Simon, Ian, Nev, me etc. And I doubt a program will > > get written if the programmer knows it is plainly idiotic. Of course, Bob > > He has a point. > > > The truth is: IF WE WANT THINGS TO HAPPEN THEN WE HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER. And > > that means that a couple of people have to come down off their high horses > > and accept that the thing has to be 'managed' and that as such there will be > > times when they will have to do as they are told. > > Indeed. And, as you seem to be the /only/ person arguing in favour of this > style of thing, are /you/ going to be the person to get off your high > horse? Because if not, then I'm unlinking from this list right now - I'm > not interested at all in a computer dominated by one person, which is > basically what you'll be trying to do. I agree completely! > > don't claim to be right all the time - but if people will not even open their > > minds and think about what is being said then how can we move forward? > > So open yours! Accept that, in this case, maybe you should leave it alone! And again.. > > I have given the reasons for change, I have justified each of the main points > > No - you've justified it as far as you think. Other people still aren't > satisfied. Yup! > > I've yet to hear any reason WHY the syntax is not valid. > > Bob, we're defining a new machine. Any syntax is going to be valid, for > pete's sake. It's whether people like it and find it usable that's more > important, and right at the moment it doesn't appear that people do. Mmm.. > > Now please. Will everyone take a deep breath and engage brain before ranting > > off at this email. Let us have a little debate that at least shows that the > > person has understood the question. >> > Question understood, but I'm afraid I'm rapidly losing patience with this > thread - it should have finished long ago. Yep. Well, an Email which I agree with 100% and completely and don't wish to argue with in anyway whatsoever.. (Must be the first time in weeks..). YAY! -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 17:00:20 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Disc/k To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:42:14 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <13039.199612041635@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Dec 4, 96 04:35:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 244 Lines: 8 > Who gives a monkeys?! You write as disc, I'll write as disk! No need > to have an argument over it. Fine, I've said my last on the matter, but it seems as relevant an argument as anything else we're having on this list at the moment! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 17:05:21 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:01:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Nev's SRAM board In-Reply-To: <961204111004_807352799@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 490 Lines: 13 > > p.s. Has anyone taken the time to look at Nev's SRAM board yet? He is keen to > save money if he can by having this board made at the same time as a fresh > batch of the IDE boards. He had hoped to get feedback from some of you but so > far nothing. I'm trying to - it's just getting those files to a printer - wherever I have a program that'll look at those files, I don't seem to have enough disk space to expand them :( Will solve the problem soon though & have a look. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 17:15:53 1996 From: "SL. Harding" Message-Id: <199612041705.RAA09177@irix.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS unwritten LOAD botch To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:05:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612041406.OAA03523@irix.bris.ac.uk> from "SL. Harding" at Dec 4, 96 02:06:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1397 Lines: 29 One thing that may make live a little easyer for hard drive owners would be a basic program that is LOADed and RUN every time the user enters the SAMSONbasic CLI. The last command of that BASIC program should be made a NEW so that the user can start afresh! This could be used to create memory resident procedures to solve the 'I could not be bothered to type LOAD all of the time to load my favorite programs problem' as any number of procedures that simply read could be created and made to correspond to the programs name. i.e. a memory resident procedure called "TankTris" could be made that simply executes a LOAD H1/Games/3D/ "TankTris" Of course, a simple DEFPROC would not be good enough for this as the procedure would then not last the NEWing. This program could have a number of DEFKEYCODE and KEY commands in if the user so wishes. The program could set all of the Dxx numbers to the users prefered names. The program could do anything that an ordinary basic program can do. It would be, in effect a config.sys No other programs should be allowed to alter this program (i.e. no win95) And it should NOT be used as a real config.sys to configure the system and make it aware of special hardware etc. But just used to configure the world to the user. The hardware configuration should be done at a lower level if it needs to be done at all in software. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 17:22:20 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:23:01 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS unwritten LOAD botch Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <8BD07564A@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 909 Lines: 20 > One thing that may make live a little easyer for hard drive owners would be a basic > program that is LOADed and RUN every time the user enters the SAMSONbasic CLI. > The last command of that BASIC program should be made a NEW so that the user can start afresh! [snip!] > > Numb. Yeh, good 'n all. But I doesn't sound like a good solution. The syntax for SAM basic should remain the same, I feel. I'm still sticking to my use SHELL to call a CLI command in sam basic use LOAD "jjjj" in sam basic as normal guns on this one. Perhaps I've missed the point. Maybe I'm not sure what you were getting at with this 'config.sys' thing. +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 17:22:25 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:17:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Me too! Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 208 Lines: 8 Me too! Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 17:24:34 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:24:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Me too! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <8C4F740C0@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 289 Lines: 7 > Me too! U2 what? +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From imc Wed Dec 4 17:49:02 1996 Subject: Re: Wild Cards. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:49:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961204111004_807352799@emout09.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 4, 96 11:10:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1265 Lines: 42 On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:10:04 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: [Frode said] > >So...you want > >DEL D1/usr/local/bin/readme/txt > >instead of > >DEL D1:/usr/local/bin/readme.txt > >Which one is more readable? > The first is more readable if you consider the extension NOT to be part of > the filename. So how can you tell the difference between - a file called "readme/txt" in the directory "/usr/local/bin" on device "D1"; - a file called "txt" in the directory "/usr/local/bin/readme" on device "D1"; - a file called "readme/txt" in the directory "D1/usr/local/bin", or - a file called "txt" in the directory "D1/usr/local/bin/readme"? > That is the problem. SAM Basic allows too many exceptions to rules. What exceptions? What rules? > that means that a couple of people have to come down off their high horses Right. So are you going to?... > I have spent a good deal of my time trying to explain what I was talking > about You still haven't explained what you mean by saying that "*.bak" is against the rules. All you have produced is a paragraph from some GCSE computer studies notes which doesn't prove anything. > I've yet to hear any reason WHY the syntax is not valid. I've yet to hear any reason WHY the syntax "*.bak" is not valid. imc From imc Wed Dec 4 17:50:05 1996 Subject: Re: Disc/k To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:50:05 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Dec 4, 96 04:26:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 311 Lines: 10 On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:26:17 +0000 (GMT), Andrew M Gale said: > Yes, and sliding that tab writes protects the DISC! Not the > plastic casing!!! Nope, the magnetic medium is not write protected by sliding that tab. I can still erase it with a strong magnet. Now can we stop this silly argument right now? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 19:53:27 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:51:52 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961204145152_1085490840@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Disc/k Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 158 Lines: 9 In a message dated 04/12/96 12:15:46, you write: >No, you slide a little tab in the corner of THE PLASTIC CASING. > >Andrew > > To write protect the DISC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 20:28:24 1996 Message-Id: <199612042026.VAA29945@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Disc/k Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:25:56 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 525 Lines: 23 ---------- > Van: BrenchleyR@aol.com > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: Disc/k > Datum: Wednesday, December 04, 1996 8:51 PM > > In a message dated 04/12/96 12:15:46, you write: > > >No, you slide a little tab in the corner of THE PLASTIC CASING. > > > >Andrew > > > > > > To write protect the DISC. Disk or Disc, in Dutch it is known as "Schijf" :-) Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye! --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 21:17:23 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:15:29 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. In-Reply-To: <961204111004_807352799@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 8797 Lines: 182 On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Now despite what Andrew Collier thinks, the rules haven't changed and they > are not old fashioned. Ok many systems may have themselves bent the rules, I object that you have singled me out here. 1) I have never mentioned 'the rules'. Anyway in the approximate words of my AS computer studies teacher (and I got grade A, I might add), "All the examining boards are totally out of date and not one of them really knows what they're talking about. For the exam you just have to learn and regurgitate what they defined, even if you know it doesn't hold up in the real world." Also, the exam syllabus is based around the real world and not vica versa. I fail to see who defines 'the rules', why nobody can have changed 'the rules', who enforces 'the rules' and why we have got to obey 'the rules'. In any case, what is to say that a small misinterpretation has not crept in somewhere along the line? Teachers are human, just like most of the rest of us. Dare I say it, I think your stance on this point is somewhat extrapolated from your school notes anyway. 2) You cannot single me out because NOBODY else has agreed with you that ERASE "*.bak" should become illegal. Any name on about the whole list could have been substituted here. I think you have a chip on your shoulder against me, not the other way around. After all, I would argue against _anybody_ who said something like this. > and even broken them and set their own rules, but that does not make the new > rules right. His comment that "Much of this discussion is superfluous, since > Bob is unlikely ever to convince Simon, Ian, Nev, me etc that his syntax is > best. And who will be > writing these programs? Simon, Ian, Nev, me etc. And I doubt a program will > get written if the programmer knows it is plainly idiotic. Of course, Bob > could do it all himself with his twenty-odd years of programming > experience....." is just about the most childish comment he has ever made on > this list. So, if it isn't done HIS way he won't play - Ahhh didums nasty men > not want to play your game. Are you saying I don't have a point? I would like to draw your attention to a couple of factual errors in your reply: For HIS read 'everybody on the entire list except for Bob'. Including all the programmers, which is the whole point. For men read 'one man', or 'Bob'. Please get a grip, you are not in a majority here. And if it was childish, consider it a small retaliation for calling me stupid a few days ago. Even so, do you deny the truth of the statement? You will get a syntax superior to your specification unless you do it yourself. > The truth is: IF WE WANT THINGS TO HAPPEN THEN WE HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER. And True. And that means you too, Bob. Perhaps you are the one who should be doing a little growing up. > that means that a couple of people have to come down off their high horses Either about fifty people (the whole list apart from you) and the vast majority of computer users in the entire world, or just one person: you, Bob. > and accept that the thing has to be 'managed' and that as such there will be > times when they will have to do as they are told. But why should you be the one person who tells us? On this list we have fifty-odd Sam users, a pretty good cross section of computer users as a whole. If not one of us agrees with your suggestion, I think it is pretty clear that it won't go down well with many other people. And as you say below, we need to make this new machine popular. As for programmers doing what they are told, you yourself have on several occasions said that programmers NEVER do what they are told, that guidelines are not worth the paper they're written on, various other generalised comments, and bitten my head for suggestting you weren't a programmer yourself. You own Format publications. Some may say you own Revelation and West Coast. You may well own the SamSon when it appears. But you do not own this list, and you damn well don't own us. Do not expect to be able to dictate to us. In short, Bob will get what Bob is given, even if Bob doesn't think it's what he wants. > I have spent a good deal of my time trying to explain what I was talking > about - but it has gone in one ear and out the other. I said right at the top > of the posting regarding syntax that it was written several years ago, I > don't claim to be right all the time - but if people will not even open their > minds and think about what is being said then how can we move forward? I couldn't have put it better myself. Please try to live in the real world; we have listened to all your comments and said exactly why we disagree, and how we would improve things. You are the one who hasn't listened, or tried to see another point of view. If you don't always think you're right, you have found a funny way to show it. > We have to look at things with a view to those potential users who are not > programmers. The need as much help as we can give them. Power users can have > TSRs that implement 'quick and dirty' routes to what they want to do - there What is the acronym TSR? Anyway, what quick and dirty routes? And doesn't the word Quick imply easy to implement and cheap? > needs come way down the list when it comes to designing the expanded SAM > because, if we built for them then the cost per machine is going to be > thousands not hundreds of pounds. Well I don't know what you mean by TSR, but if it has anything to do with software then I'm sure your estimate of cost is totally wrong. > I have given the reasons for change, I have justified each of the main points > (file command syntax, wild card characters, and changes to the PROC > structure) but many of the replies have taken the stance that either: don't > like the new syntax so won't have it; or too much typing so I won't have it. > I've yet to hear any reason WHY the syntax is not valid. I am not convinced by your usage of the word 'justified'. I have yet to hear a reason for disallowing ERASE "*.TXT" any better than 'because that's what my CS teacher said twenty years ago' Similarly, reasons for changing DIR to CAT, GO TO to GOTO, disk to disc etc have yet to go very much further than 'well, I'd prefer it that way'. > Now please. Will everyone take a deep breath and engage brain before ranting > off at this email. Let us have a little debate that at least shows that the > person has understood the question. IIIIIIIIIIIINNHHHHHHHAAAALLLLLLLEEE Clutch down Brain into top Clutch up begin ranting... There wern't many questions in there, it was just a rant and a rave on your part that certain people on this list (and me in particular) have had the cheek to disagree with you. Sorry, but if you will insist on saying these things... I'm fairly neutral about your changes to Basic syntax (I dislike some of the new brackets, but could live with them.) However, some comments on the Dos, and seperation of fields in particular, I take a slightly less passive view. The filename extension IS part of the file name. It extends the filename, hence the title 'filename extension'. Keeping the name and the extension in seperate pairs of quotes is very illogical; it is no easier for the user and neither is it any easier for the operating system or its programmer. In most cases, the extension could be totally ignored - the dot can have no significance, it is just another character in the filename. (ie don't go down the MSDOS road of keeping its position fixed) However, in other operations it can be usefully supportted, ie to group certain types of file together, and the extension is how to do this. It also serves as an aid to human understanding (though some other methods have also been suggesstted to do that. Remember though that it would be an advantage to maintain a little bit of compatability with other systems, I think Simon has already hinted at this). The extension should not stop you from doing what you like with the file. Rather like the way in which it is already works, actually. As for launching the SRAM board seperately from the processor board, I think it will take a lot more than a new syntax / DOS to convince people that they want to buy one. After all, it could nearly all be done purely from software. If the board costs 7UKP to make, how much will it be to buy? It will start to sound expensive for what it does if you include realistic programmers' royalties. Wheras an accelerator (I know this isn't quite what we're discussing) could be bundled with an absolute bare minimum of software and current Sam owners would be queueing up to get their hands on one. So, as far the SRAM is concerned, somebody please start designing something else we can attach in addittion to it. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 4 23:08:02 1996 Subject: STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:05:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Dec4.230618+0000_gmt.46931-16085+28@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1302 Lines: 27 Time to stop arguing everyone. At this point in time, I'm >>>eeek<<< far from unsub'ing from this list. The signal to noise ratio has hit the roof, and flames are bouncing off the walls. Tomorrow morning I'll be sending out a quick questionnaire, replyable to me. I'll collate the results, and post them up here (With the voters' names atttached to their decision so I can prove there's no cheating). I want to clear everything up so that we can get this list back on an even keel. If this fails, then I'm seriously considering setting up an invitation-only list for the people who'll actually be doing the hard graft on any new work so that we can swap ideas in relative peace. Sure, it may lose the possible cross-pollination from other quarters in the process, and teh DOS / whatever may lose something as a result, but I could do without the arguments, as they're taking up too much space and time. There's enough traffic to read through as it is without a load wasted on arguments over syntax, etc. These are religious wars, nothing more, nothing less. AT work we discussed the LOAD D1;"whatever" vs LOAD "D1:whatever" syntax. We came to the conclusion that a compiled language would be better using the former, and an interpreted the latter. Make of that what you will. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 00:16:28 1996 Message-Id: <199612050016.AAA17894@mail.enterprise.net> From: David Munden To: sam-users Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to DOS and ROM Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 21:49:04 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 887 Lines: 29 > 1.4 CAT to replace DIR. The token will print as CAT, therefore any program > saved under SAMDOS 2 will have all its DIRs come up as CATs. If DIR is typed > at the keyboard then CAT will appear in the listing. I have to say I don`t like that idea. I`m far to used to using dir on all of my machines, so why change it. > 1.5 LOAD Pn loads the file at Position 'n' on the current disc/sub directory. Is there any valid reason to change it from LOAD n to LOAD Pn? > Section 2. Other Changes > 2.1 Change all occurrence of the spelling DISK to read DISC in messages. Why bother, I prefer the first spelling anyway. > 4.5 Provide variables to be copied to SVARs 14 & 15 on boot up. What are SVAR 14&15 as I can`t remember what they are? I personally feel that masterdos should be standard on all machines. _ |_)avid (\/)unden http://homepages.enterprise.net/davidm/index.html From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 07:20:33 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 06:58:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Si Owen To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Retyping files In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961203162736.009bd66c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-Id: Organisation: Wordcraft International Ltd. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 700 Lines: 16 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Simon Cooke wrote: > All this retyping argument becomes moot when you stick the file-type in the > file itself. Then you can treat the file as ordinary data and do whatever > you like with it!!!!!!!! But it's still nice to know what it is without having to open the file! Si /------------------------------------+----------------------------------------\ | Si Owen | Home: si@obobo.demon.co.uk | | Wordcraft International Ltd, UK | Work: sowen@wordcraft.co.uk | | Fax: +44-1332-295525 | WWW: www.obobo.demon.co.uk | \------------------------------------+----------------------------------------/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 07:22:42 1996 Date: 04 Dec 1996 20:06:47 +0000 Message-Id: <961205050127@digibank.demon.co.uk> From: Stewart Skardon To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAMson filetypes Organization: Digital Databank BBS X-Mailer: ArcadeLink - Email/News Gateway X-System: DigiLink Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3010 Lines: 65 Right! Time I put my ideas down about all this filetype stuff. Let's go for a system similar to what the Archimedes uses, I can't remember who mentioned it, and to be quite frank, I can't be bothered to trawl back through about 120 Emails to find out. For those who don't know, the Archimedes uses a pretty clever filetype system. Being an Acorn Archimedes owner, I'll try and describe it a bit, and it is worth considering, it's very flexible. The Acorn has a set of filetypes, in hex that range from &000 to &fff, not that shocking really, but there you go. These filetypes are divided in to groups and then the user is entitled to use a filetype as follows: Types &000-&0ff - free for users use. Types &100-&3ff - Allocated by Acorn to PD authors Types &400-&9ff - Alloctaed by Acorn to Software Houses for Apps. Types &a00-&aff - Reserved for future use by Acorn Apps. Types &b00-&dff - Allocated by Acorn to software houses for Apps. Types &e00-&fff - Allocated by Acorn for Generic Datatypes. Then for each filetype, a number of system variables can be setup, such as a textual equivalent, eg filetype &fff is a text file, so when you want to set the filetype of a file to text, you just type (at the cli): *Settype , in this case TEXT. It's very simple to use. System variables can also be setup to tell the GUI what to do with a file of a certain type when it is double clicked upon. This variable is set up simply using : *set Alias$RunType_ Run .!RunImage either via the CLI, or via the GUI from a !Run file. It's a good idea, that way people can setup their system in their own way to recognise what ever filetypes that they want it to, and when a new application is 'seen' by the GUI, it can do all this setting up itself. I admit, perhaps it might take about a 100th of a second to do it all, but hey! It only has to be done the once, when you boot up your machine! Surely it's worth considering this kind of idea! Sorry to have waffled for so long, but I felt that it had to be said. _ (_'tewart. ,_) +--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+ | | Coming soon..... | | Stewart Skardon | Look out for a new SAM BBS | | sskardon@digibank.demon.co.uk | Watch this space folks! | | | | +--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+ *** !DigiMail 1.2d (20-Nov-1996) - The Digital Databank BBS OLR *** -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Digital Databank BBS: +44-1707-323531 (300-28.8k/V42/42b) 24 hours | | FidoNet: 2:257/501.0 Sysop: jstonier@digibank.demon.co.uk | | (Acorn Information at your Fingertips) | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 07:29:56 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:27:28 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612050727.AA13014@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!! X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 408 Lines: 13 > Time to stop arguing everyone. > > At this point in time, I'm >>>eeek<<< far from unsub'ing from this list. > The signal to noise ratio has hit the roof, and flames are bouncing off > the walls. [deletion] I wholeheartedly agree. And everyone - please loose the abuse and keep all replies short and to the point. A reply to a long mail with the word 'Yup' attached is slightly pointless..... -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 09:41:18 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961205094210.0090e1a4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 09:42:10 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Poll Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2414 Lines: 98 Right... you have to reply to this at /my/ address, not the mailing list: ie send replies to it to sc@sss.co.uk. Select which letter you want for which number, etc - multiple choice. Please only reply with lists of the numbers and letters -- eg the form of your reply should look like: 1 a 2 b 3 c ... etc.... -----QUESTIONS----- 1. Directory listing commands. a. DIR b. CAT c. LS 2. LOAD by file number command syntax a. LOAD Pn b. LOAD n c. Don't allow this command to be used. 3. File device syntax a. LOAD D1;"myfile" b. LOAD "D1:myfile" 4. Wildcard file matching a. "*.txt" matches all files ending in ".txt"; "*txt" doesn't match anything b. "*.txt" matches all files ending in ".txt"; "*txt" matches those and possibly more files c. "*.txt" matches nothing d. Full reg-exp matching (may cause problems with reserved characters in filenames). 5. File typing a. File type is stored in directory exclusively b. File type is stored in the file exclusively c. File type is stored majorly in the file, but with minor (short) info in the directory for listing purposes d. File type is stored majorly in the directory, but with minor (short) info in the file for file-recovery purposes 6. DOS file structure (optional!) a. Extended version of existing SAM system b. HPFS c. EXT-FS2 d. FAT 7. Filename lengths a. 10 characters b. 32 characters c. 64 characters d. 128 characters e. 256 characters 8. System abstraction a. BASIC, DOS, etc heavily interlinked b. Layered system, with each layer communicating to *only* the layer above/below it c. Mixed layer system, with each layer able to communicate to *any* layer above or below it, but following certain rules (eg. for character printing, talk to *this* routine... etc) d. Anarchy. 9. Favourite colour a. Red b. Green c. Blue d. 69, decimal. 10. The mailing list a. Too many flames, not enough discussion, bad signal-to-noise ratio b. Too few flames, not enough discussion, bad signal-to-noise ratio c. Too many flames, too much discussion, bad signal-to-noise ratio d. Too few flames, too much discussion, bad signal-to-noise ratio e. Too many flames, not enough discussion, good signal-to-noise ratio f. Too few flames, not enough discussion, good signal-to-noise ratio g. Too many flames, too much discussion, good signal-to-noise ratio h. Too few flames, too much discussion, good signal-to-noise ratio ------END-------- Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 09:42:50 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612050947.JAA13948@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:47:25 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2889 Lines: 63 >Right! Time I put my ideas down about all this filetype stuff. > >Let's go for a system similar to what the Archimedes uses. >For those who don't know, the Archimedes uses a pretty clever >filetype system. Being an Acorn Archimedes owner, I'll try and >describe it a bit, and it is worth considering, it's very flexible. I didn't know. >The Acorn has a set of filetypes, in hex that range from &000 to &fff, >not that shocking really, but there you go. Strange number! >These filetypes are divided in to groups and then the user is entitled to >use a filetype as follows: > >Types &000-&0ff - free for users use. >Types &100-&3ff - Allocated by Acorn to PD authors >Types &400-&9ff - Alloctaed by Acorn to Software Houses for Apps. >Types &a00-&aff - Reserved for future use by Acorn Apps. >Types &b00-&dff - Allocated by Acorn to software houses for Apps. >Types &e00-&fff - Allocated by Acorn for Generic Datatypes. Back when this strand started, I suggested we devide the file types into blocks, allocated for different types of applications and usage but this was probably a bad idea as it just adds to the constraints within the system and limits expandability. The idea of having a number that are free for use is new to me though. I am reserved about the use of numbering, using letters seems to make more sense now... >Then for each filetype, a number of system variables can be setup, such >as a textual equivalent, eg filetype &fff is a text file, so when you >want to set the filetype of a file to text, you just type (at the cli): >*Settype , in this case TEXT. It's very simple to use. This suffers from the 'My version of DOS is too old or (I don't know how to)/(cannot be bothered to) change the labels myself' problem. This would be a problem as letting applications change such things for you on a reset-proof basis means that you allow them to write anything they want in you system configuration files ala win95 and we all know how much fun that is to correct! If we simply use a string of, say 4 characters to represent each file type in the first place, then if the filetypes 'sytem variables' have not been set for it there is still a USEFULL, if short and crude, description of the file in the directory. And there is always this simple way of refering to this filetype, by its 4 letter name. There is no need for the novice man in the street that we keep on saying we are aiming for to remember or use a silly 3 digit number ever. IMPORTANT QUESTION... Where are the identification numbers for each file held in are Arch? Are they stored in the relevent directory entry,centrally on the disc or at the start of the relevent file? Numb. No one seems to have sided with me in thinking this is a good workable solution, if you think it is a good speak now or forever hold your trap shut. I hope I am not 'doing a Bob' as you might say. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 09:46:11 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:43:57 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612050943.AA13144@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2060 Lines: 55 > >So...you want > > > >DEL D1/usr/local/bin/readme/txt > > > >instead of > > > >DEL D1:/usr/local/bin/readme.txt > > > >Which one is more readable? > > > > -Frode > > The first is more readable if you consider the extension NOT to be part of > the filename. The problem is; the extension IS part of the filename, the device is not. That's why you have to separate the device with a different delimiter, or you end up with a VMS syntax. > If, on the other hand the extension IS part of the filename then we have to > look at and say "how do we specify the syntax that will allow this to be > treated as a unified filename in one situation, but at the same time allow it > to be treated as two separate things in another situation?" Why should we want do that? There is absolutely no need to separete the extension from the filename. > > That is the problem. SAM Basic allows too many exceptions to rules. I guess that's because it's BASIC. :) > > What I am seeking to do is to more strongly DEFINE the syntax, ultimately in > something like 'Bacus Naur' notation, so that instead of sitting down and > writing the interpreter for the Z380 (or A.N.Other processor) we can chuck it > at a compiler generator and let it do the work. I might agree with you on that, but it seems that you want a different language than BASIC. If you buy a computer to program on (how many does that nowadays?) you might aswell get to grips with the 'difficulty' of dealing with a perhaps not-entirely-consisten-syntax. There are languages out there that has been DEFINED to death for 20 years now. We don't want that. > p.s. Has anyone taken the time to look at Nev's SRAM board yet? He is keen to > save money if he can by having this board made at the same time as a fresh > batch of the IDE boards. He had hoped to get feedback from some of you but so > far nothing. I have printed them out, but haven't got the time to look at them :( The circuitry looks simple enough. Can't be that much that's wrong. I'll try to have a look at it - is there a deadline? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 10:02:34 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612051006.KAA13968@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS botch file To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:06:24 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1652 Lines: 39 >> One thing that may make live a little easyer for hard drive owners >>would be a basic program that is LOADed and RUN every time the user enters >>the SAMSONbasic CLI. The last command of that BASIC program should be >>made a NEW so that the user can start afresh! >>[snip!] >> >> Numb. > >Yeh, good 'n all. But I doesn't sound like a good solution. The >syntax for SAM basic should remain the same, I feel. Certainly. Having to type LOAD "" is a feature, not a problem. It would be nice to have a BASIC program that is executed as the CLI is first loaded so that you can configure your universe, it would save on the need for the battery backed memory. There is no reason why the first line of this program could not be set to RUN "GUI" on the mass market production machines so they need never see the CLI! trouble is the need for a hard drive. Also, in my usual round about way, I suggested a new command to form a new type of procedure construct. A procedure that is memory resident yet does not appear in the programs listing and is not saved with the usual SAVE "" command. Numb. Wow, I seem to be doing a lot of posting this week. No, I don't usualy live in computer rooms, I have a good excuse...Course work! C is just so stupid! It does mean that I can react pritty fast to any development on the list. For now, I bet I am just about the only one who is up to date! good rule of thumb... NEVER POST UNLESS YOU ARE UP TO DATE SO HAVE READ EVERYTHING IN YOUR FOLDER. this applies to people scanning though the list posting as they go... and to people with a huge folder of C notes and a fast approaching deadline! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 10:10:04 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612051013.KAA13977@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Poll To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:13:32 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 348 Lines: 20 >1. Directory listing commands. > >a. DIR >b. CAT >c. LS I think this question has been stated too simply! I would go for... m. CAT should in programs, DIR and LS accepted at CLI. >6. DOS file structure (optional!) > >b. HPFS >c. EXT-FS2 A brief description of these would be helpfull, and would save 59 people from tring to look it up! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 10:15:59 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS botch file To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:13:18 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612051006.KAA13968@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 5, 96 10:06:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 699 Lines: 16 > It would be nice to have a BASIC program that is executed as the CLI is > first loaded so that you can configure your universe, it would save on > the need for the battery backed memory. There is no reason why the first > line of this program could not be set to RUN "GUI" on the mass market > production machines so they need never see the CLI! trouble is the need > for a hard drive. > I like this idea... but I think the lack of a hard-drive doesn't matter. I think the 'DOS' should include a feature for a ram-disk (note the cconcession on the 'k'!) which uses the remaining SRAM. OK, programs could only be short, but the sort of programs stored there would only need to be short. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 11:20:41 1996 Message-Id: <9612051116.AA1935@worldcom-37.worldcom.com> To: sam-users From: Stefan Drissen Date: 4 Dec 96 19:56:50 Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1537 Lines: 46 >> So do I and that is why it is changing back. As I said before, you CATalogue >> a directory. > >Regardless of whether CAT/DIR is more appropriate, can't you see >from your own experience that there will be hundreds of annoyed >SAM users having to chande from DIR to CAT? Indeed! Not to mention the effects on speedtypists (which most programmers are). The combination D I R makes use of BOTH hands in a toggled way. The ugly C A T combination makes use of just ONE hand, giving you massive amounts of cramp if done too often. When it was just SYMBOL+SHIFT, SYMBOL 0 (or was it 9?) it was even worse! But perhaps Bob would prefer this approach!! ;) **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 11:56:55 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612051200.MAA14228@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS PLAY command To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:00:44 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1416 Lines: 38 Thats a point. The only thing the +2 had over the SAM was the PLAY command (I do not know if there is one in MasterBASIC and never owned a +2 so don't really know what I am talking about!). How about a PLAY command for SAMSONbasic? By PLAY I mean the ability to play a string as a music. something along the lines of... PLAY "c,c,e,c,d,d,b,a" to get the sequence of notes in the sting played for all to hear. We could put special characters in the string to make it repeat various bits various numbers of times. We could get the command to multitask with other basic commands, so when the string is encountered it starts to play the string and continues exectuting the rest of the basic program while it continues to play. We could multitask the PLAY command with other PLAY commands, each on a different channel. i.e. one PLAYing the melody, one PLAYing the base, etc. we would need a way to syncronise them. We could include special characters to act as white noise drum beats. unlikely suggestion: We could play samples as opposed to chip noise at each note. This would be much simpler and more ammusing to the man on the street than using E/Pro-tracker to write, then complile, then save as a code file, then play using funny CALL instructions. It would not compete with the quality or compositional tools of E/PRO but would certainly make it simpler and more fun to the beginner. Just an idea. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 12:06:41 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:00:29 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <19719615781@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 558 Lines: 15 > Programs can do what the heck they like with filenames provided that they > take responsibility for the outcome. However, a line like ERASE Dn"*.CAD" > should not be a legal command - and I don;t care what other systems do or > what SAM does at the moment - this is just an illegal structure that should > not be allowed. Well, in that case I'm sticking with SAMDOS 2...! (Sorry if I'm behind the argument here - still got 200+ mails to read...) > Bob. > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 12:26:08 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:22:39 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Hard Drive Backups... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <1976F82603E@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 235 Lines: 7 Just a thought... Is there any way we could use the current tape system logic in the ROM to provide Hard Drive Backup onto tape systems? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 12:44:21 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:35:44 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Screen Savers.. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <197B1B82F8E@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 449 Lines: 9 I can't see the fuss about these screen savers...you can turn it off, reduce the time it takes to come on etc. (POKE SVAR 51,x I think) so why are we having it removed or fiddled around with? Surely if we set aside a aprt of the flashrom where we could dump something like AfterDark that was called when the allotted time came up we'd be happy...? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From imc Thu Dec 5 13:07:49 1996 Subject: Re: Hard Drive Backups... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:07:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1976F82603E@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Dec 5, 96 12:22:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 337 Lines: 10 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:22:39 GMT+0, Johnna Teare said: > Is there any way we could use the current tape system logic in the > ROM to provide Hard Drive Backup onto tape systems? Hahahahahaha Just think, if you increased the speed by a factor of ten to 15000 baud, you could save over 6 megs of data in less than an hour... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 13:08:33 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:53:20 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <198222C56BC@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 254 Lines: 10 > (I've done Computer Studies GCSE, and Computer Studies A/S... Blimey! So have I! So how come you kow so much and I'm so bloody clueless?!!!?! > Simon Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Mab is the Queen and there's a good apothecary man!" From imc Thu Dec 5 13:08:58 1996 Subject: Re: SOS PLAY command To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:08:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612051200.MAA14228@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 5, 96 12:00:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 312 Lines: 8 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:00:44 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > The only thing the +2 had over the SAM was the PLAY command (I do not know > if there is one in MasterBASIC and never owned a +2 so don't really know > what I am talking about!). Here's a hint for you. Buy Syncytium from Persona Software. imc From imc Thu Dec 5 13:09:45 1996 Subject: Re: STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:09:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96Dec4.230618+0000_gmt.46931-16085+28@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Dec 4, 96 11:05:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 281 Lines: 8 On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:05:49 +0000 (GMT), Simon Cooke said: > At this point in time, I'm >>>eeek<<< far from unsub'ing from this list. > The signal to noise ratio has hit the roof, and flames are bouncing off > the walls. ^^^^ Floor, surely? :-) imc From imc Thu Dec 5 13:11:39 1996 Subject: Re: SOS syntax for the sake of syntax To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:11:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612051116.AA1935@worldcom-37.worldcom.com> from "Stefan Drissen" at Dec 4, 96 07:56:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 580 Lines: 15 On 4 Dec 96 19:56:50, Stefan Drissen said: > The combination D I R makes use of BOTH hands in a toggled way. > The ugly C A T combination makes use of just ONE hand, giving you > massive amounts of cramp if done too often. Indeed. Though as I'm not a touch typist I usually go for the t with the other hand. > When it was just SYMBOL+SHIFT, SYMBOL 0 (or was it 9?) it was even > worse! But perhaps Bob would prefer this approach!! ;) Now there I have to disagree. It's just like typing a ) except that you press caps shift with your left hand at an opportune moment. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 13:11:43 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961205131219.00e774d8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 13:12:19 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Poll Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 381 Lines: 12 At 10:13 05/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >>1. Directory listing commands. >I think this question has been stated too simply! >I would go for... >m. CAT should in programs, DIR and LS accepted at CLI. > >>6. DOS file structure (optional!) >A brief description of these would be helpfull, and would save 59 people >from tring to look it up! So, are you going to answer the poll or not? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 13:14:08 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:10:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS file types In-Reply-To: <9612031752.AA03243@booth15.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 914 Lines: 21 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:24:09 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > > Oh, btw, does the LBYTE(?), SBYTE(?) and associated hookcodes (opening > > files etc for loading single bytes) work in SAMDOS2? > > I don't know, because as far as I know the hook code for opening a file in > the first place doesn't work properly! That's just great.... You mean I've got to waste half the memory to decode things still? I'm only doing it this way to test the algolrithms... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 13:36:55 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961205133552.008e3444@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 13:35:52 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 260 Lines: 13 At 12:53 05/12/96 GMT+0, you wrote: >Status: > > >> (I've done Computer Studies GCSE, and Computer Studies A/S... > >Blimey! So have I! So how come you kow so much and I'm so bloody >clueless?!!!?! Because I've been programming since I was 8? :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 13:40:44 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961205134122.008e1c10@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 13:41:22 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 363 Lines: 14 At 13:09 05/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:05:49 +0000 (GMT), Simon Cooke said: >> At this point in time, I'm >>>eeek<<< far from unsub'ing from this list. >> The signal to noise ratio has hit the roof, and flames are bouncing off >> the walls. ^^^^ > >Floor, surely? :-) *grins* sorry, yep :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 14:27:28 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612051429.OAA14981@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS botch file To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:29:43 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3091 Lines: 85 >> This could be used to create memory resident procedures to solve the 'I >> could not be bothered to type LOAD all of the time to load my favorite >> programs problem' as any number of procedures that simply read > "SAMgame"> could be created and made to correspond to the programs >> name. i.e. a memory resident procedure called "TankTris" could be made that >> simply executes a LOAD H1/Games/3D/ "TankTris" >> Of course, a simple DEFPROC would not be good enough for this as the >> procedure would then not last the NEWing. > I suggested a new command to form a new type of procedure construct. A > procedure that is memory resident yet does not appear in the programs > listing and is not saved with the usual > SAVE "" command. I don't think I explained what I mean properly. Taking what I wrote litteraly, this would lead to great problems with thew portability of SAMSONbasic programs as one person may have a memory resident procedure of the name 'Partial Concordance' that does a partial concordance on a set of input data. If this procedure call was used in a program, that program would not work on anothers SAMSON. What I actualy tried to describe was a command, lets call it 'ALIAS' that could be used to create memory resident ALIASes. the best example of this would be, assuming that we change to CAT and have the syntax checker in the ROM (equivilant) replace all copys of 'dir' it finds into 'CAT' keywords. Surpose you keep accidently typing 'ls', 'listdisc' and 'directory' in at the CLI to try and get a directory. You could then, alter your config.universe file by making it read: 10 ALIAS "ls" = "CAT" 20 ALIAS "listdisc" = "CAT" 30 ALIAS "listdisk" = "CAT" 40 ALIAS "directory" = "CAT" 50 NEW so that you can quite happily type... ls "gordo.*" etc. at the CLI and have it changed into CAT when you press / in exactly the same way that the ROM converts DIR into CAT for you. This is NOT the same as the extended definitions for the function keys as this must be called BEFORE the syntax checker looks for the word in the list of keywords. That way, the user could mask over a normal command with an extended definition, i.e. define an ALIAS 'print' (notice the lower case letters, this is not the token)) that replaces the word 'print' with the words 'print at 0,0;' and it is this that is passed to the syntax checker. so typing... print "ello" is converted into... PRINT AT 0,0;"ello" back to the original example 10 ALIAS "tanktris" = "LOAD ""H1:/Games/3D/TankTris""" 20 NEW entering... TANKTRIS at the prompt is instantly converted into... LOAD "H1:/Games/3D/TankTris" and instantly executed. I hope you understand me this time. Numbly (will happly talk to rubbish to postpone doing his C ) Belt Shaver. PS: How about a 'WRITE PARTIAL CONCORDANCE IN C USING STUPID UNNECESSARY DYNAMIC DATA TYPES YOU HAVE TO WRITE FIRST TOO' command for the new SAMSON BASIC? Or should that be... 'WRITEPARTIALCONCORDANCEINCUSINGSTUPIDUNNECESSARYDYNAMINDATATYPESYOUHA VETOWRITEFIRSTTOO' ? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 14:35:33 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:29:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam users Subject: Re:SOS file types In-Reply-To: <199612031136.LAA05413@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1114 Lines: 43 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: [filetype ramblings ..] ;> ;>CAT 1;"~basic" ;>to get a directory of all the basic files ;> EEUURRGGHH!!! ;>and ;>RENAME "grobo~code" TO "grobo~snap" ;>to change the code file grobo to a snap, in most cases the filetype is not ;>stated as it can always be found out from the directory. ;> ;>so we can have... ;>RENAME "grobo" TO "grobo~code" ;>to change it back ;> ;>This is an ugly syntax, can anyone think of a better one? perhaps we could Yep, don't have explicit file types. Everything is just a file. What you do with it determines what it is, thus since SNAP's and CODE files will all be the same it won't matter anyway ... ;>have another field in the basic command. ;> ;>LOAD "grobo" "snap" ;> ;>We could do with some nice way of changing the types even if we keep ;>the number of these types just the same and don't extend their use to ;>their logical conclusion. Just ignore types, it's a lot easier. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 14:42:40 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Hard Drive Backups... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:36:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612051307.AA06201@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Dec 5, 96 01:07:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 466 Lines: 13 > > Is there any way we could use the current tape system logic in the > > ROM to provide Hard Drive Backup onto tape systems? > Just think, if you increased the speed by a factor of ten to 15000 baud, you > could save over 6 megs of data in less than an hour... > Er, yes the tape idea is a *tiny* bit impractical, but perhaps we could make one of those backup devices that connect to a VCR - there used to be one for the C64 called "whizzard". Sad, eh? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 14:43:57 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:39:21 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612051439.AA13471@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS botch file X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 291 Lines: 15 > Surpose you keep accidently typing 'ls', 'listdisc' and 'directory' in at > the CLI to try and get a directory. You could then, alter your > config.universe file by making it read: > > 10 ALIAS "ls" = "CAT" Hmm... 10000 DEF PROC ls 10010 DIR 10020 END PROC > HIDE 10000 To -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 14:49:47 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:45:34 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam users Subject: Re: SOS PLAY command In-Reply-To: <199612051200.MAA14228@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2080 Lines: 59 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: > How about a PLAY command for SAMSONbasic? > By PLAY I mean the ability to play a string as a music. > something along the lines of... > PLAY "c,c,e,c,d,d,b,a" > to get the sequence of notes in the sting played for all to hear. When I replied to various questions about SYNCYTIUM, an 18-program compilation package by me and Ian, available for about 10UKP from Persona, 31 Ashwood Drive, Brandlesholme, Bury; I did mention that one of the utilities included was a Sam PLAY command, and a flexible music-filer program with over an hour of demonstration music. (Actually, Ian and I have typed in approaching four hours, but most of that is copyrighted) The command PLAY "cegC","egCE","gCEG" plays a c, an e and a g, then an e, a g and a top c etc etc You can have eight simultaneous strings; the first six go to the sound chip and all eight can be sent to MIDI. > We could put special characters in the string to make it repeat various > bits various numbers of times. Brackets > We could multitask the PLAY command with other PLAY commands, each on a > different channel. i.e. one PLAYing the melody, one PLAYing the base, > etc. we would need a way to syncronise them. We have exactly this > We could include special characters to act as white noise drum beats. Well, nearly > unlikely suggestion: We could play samples as opposed to chip noise at > each note. Well, no. > This would be much simpler and more ammusing to the man on the street than > using E/Pro-tracker to write, then complile, then save as a code file, > then play using funny CALL instructions. It would not compete with the > quality or compositional tools of E/PRO but would certainly make it > simpler and more fun to the beginner. PLAY wasn't designed to produce the snazzy, jazzy, wierd and wonderful sound that trackers can produce, but what it does do is to allow the entry of musically accurate scores, with complex timings etc, and be played correctly. And we already have exactly that for the Sam. Now get your cheque in the post. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 14:58:13 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199612051442.OAA21293@lesser.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS botch file To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:42:51 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612051429.OAA14981@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 5, 96 02:29:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1045 Lines: 27 > This is NOT the same as the extended definitions for the function keys as > this must be called BEFORE the syntax checker looks for the word in the > list of keywords. That way, the user could mask over a normal command with > an extended definition, i.e. define an ALIAS 'print' (notice the lower > case letters, this is not the token)) that replaces the word 'print' with > the words 'print at 0,0;' and it is this that is passed to the syntax > checker. > > so typing... > print "ello" > is converted into... > PRINT AT 0,0;"ello" > This is terible, I am starting to include deliberate errors in my postings to relieve bordom. ALIASes SHOULD be checked before the syntax checker searches for keywords. I didn't make it clear that replacing 'print' with 'print at 0,0;' is a good thing. A feature. > I hope you understand me this time. > I don't understand me. > Numbly (will happly talk to rubbish to postpone doing his C ) Belt Shaver. > talk 'to' rubbish? Stephen (Will happly talk rubbish to himself to postpone doing C ) Harding From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 15:07:51 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:11:42 +0000 Subject: Re: Disc/k Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1C8CF3481F@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 391 Lines: 10 > Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! > Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye! > --- Jetman --- What the ... ??! +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 15:12:33 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:40:05 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS botch file Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1D06557A63@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 891 Lines: 14 > I like this idea... but I think the lack of a hard-drive doesn't > matter. I think the 'DOS' should include a feature for a ram-disk > (note the cconcession on the 'k'!) which uses the remaining SRAM. > OK, programs could only be short, but the sort of programs stored > there would only need to be short. I thought the idea of the SRAM was that it would be /deliberately/ difficult to rewrite (inaccesible hardware switch or sommat). Doesn't that kind of scupper its use as a ram-disc? Certainly, some sort of ram-disk could be regarded as almost-essential, especially for those machines /without/ a hard drive... +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 15:22:29 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:14:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <961203131052_1353548601@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1255 Lines: 33 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: ;>In a message dated 03/12/96 14:28:41, you write: ;> ;>>Huh? You still say this after looking at the above? ;>> ;>>imc ;> ;>Yes. And I stick to it. Ok, SAM's use fo commands is not purrrfect - but at ;>least most people can read it. ;> Sorry Bob, but surely what you mean here is _you_ are used to it. If we're talking about what _new users_ will think when they get to this new OS/DOS (Whatever!) then we have to look at what is simpler and easy to type. The newcomer is going to learn the syntax from a manual either way so you can't say 'more people will recognize the syntax as it currently stands' because only a fool would try and use a DOS without first checking the commands therefore we have to go with the syntax that is easiest to type and most flexible. Da, da dah ... Unix-style ... Sorry, but it has to be this way ... I had to learn the SAMDOS syntax years ago as it was the first disc (I'll spell it how I want ...) based system I'd used. Then I had to learn UNIX, ad while neither was easy to learn I know which I prefer now ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 15:23:11 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:35:03 +0000 Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1CF0877647@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 591 Lines: 11 > > Now despite what Andrew Collier thinks, the rules haven't changed and they > > are not old fashioned. Ok many systems may have themselves bent the rules, > > I object that you have singled me out here. [chop!] What a fantastic letter! Loved it. So accurate. TSRs stands for Terminate and Stay Resident (programs), BTW +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 15:23:26 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:38:05 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS botch file Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1CFD6D135E@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 876 Lines: 16 > It would be nice to have a BASIC program that is executed as the CLI is > first loaded so that you can configure your universe, it would save on [chop!] Umm.. why does it need to be basic though? It doesn't seem 'right' (don't ask me what I mean by that, however). A CLI batch file makes more 'sense' but I'm not sure why, and it's certainly less flexible than basic... I don't quite follow the memory resident procdure thingy: why not just have a piece of memory resident code, that certainly wouldn't show up in a listing.. and it'd be faster... umm. Oh - and C's not stupid. C's 'COOL' apparently. +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ | a shot in the dark with a rubber gun | wizards and 3D an | | http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ | unbeatable combination | +---------------------------------------+------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 15:24:31 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:46:24 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS PLAY command Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1D20E57159@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1359 Lines: 33 > The only thing the +2 had over the SAM was the PLAY command (I do not know > if there is one in MasterBASIC and never owned a +2 so don't really know > what I am talking about!). Basically ( We could get the command to multitask with other basic commands, so when > the string is encountered it starts to play the string and continues > exectuting the rest of the basic program while it continues to play. Yes - or have it exclusive. And optional command in the music string, perhaps, eg PLAY "-bCGAAG" would play in background PLAY "CGAAG" wouldn't > We could include special characters to act as white noise drum beats. Or, better, use E-tracker like instrument descriptions... Depends on the sound implementation on the 'card. As for samples - hmm.. would be groovy though! If the 'card lives up to what we've discussed, it should be fairly easy too. > Just an idea And a good one at that Didn't MasterBasic have a BLITZ MUSIC command or sommat? __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 15:40:03 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <10592.199612051526@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS botch file To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:26:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1CFD6D135E@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Dec 5, 96 01:38:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 618 Lines: 14 > > It would be nice to have a BASIC program that is executed as the CLI is > > first loaded so that you can configure your universe, it would save on > Umm.. why does it need to be basic though? Good question. We could have a config file (along the lines of config.sys), which simply defined variables, loaded drivers etc. or we could have an interactive thing (if desired) (along the lines of autoexec.bat), or we could have both - or neither. Both is more flexible but may be more trouble to set up, neither is ... out of the question, really. > Oh - and C's not stupid. C's 'COOL' apparently. Prefer Pascal. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 15:40:03 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961205152912.009bedec@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 15:29:12 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Disc/k Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 259 Lines: 13 At 13:11 05/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! >> Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye! >> --- Jetman --- > >What the ... ??! Don't you remember the Jetman stories from Crash, with the Eye of Oktup? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 16:16:30 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:51:29 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961205105118_232224845@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 254 Lines: 11 In a message dated 04/12/96 16:38:52, you write: >Could we have aliases so people can set up to have CAT if they prefer? >It's save lots of room in my mailbox if we could! >-Andy > > No problem Andy, and thanks for your support of a few things. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 16:28:39 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199612051548.PAA21364@lesser.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS PLAY command To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:48:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Dec 5, 96 02:45:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1452 Lines: 36 > On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: > > > How about a PLAY command for SAMSONbasic? > > By PLAY I mean the ability to play a string as a music. > > something along the lines of... > > PLAY "c,c,e,c,d,d,b,a" > > to get the sequence of notes in the sting played for all to hear. > > When I replied to various questions about SYNCYTIUM, an 18-program > compilation package by me and Ian, available for about 10UKP from Persona, > 31 Ashwood Drive, Brandlesholme, Bury; I did mention that one of the > utilities included was a Sam PLAY command, and a flexible music-filer > program with over an hour of demonstration music. (Actually, Ian and I > have typed in approaching four hours, but most of that is copyrighted) Do we get a version of this particular program built into the SAMSONbasic? > Now get your cheque in the post. I am not a musical person myself and have no real interest in the command! I just remember how disappointed a particular (previously +2 owning) friend was when he found out his new purchase did not have such a command. I wrote him a feable substitute procedure that you gave a single string of notes. It didn't work very well, it always sounded a bit off. I never got to the stage of trying to make it repeat bits and of course it could not multitask with anything. I will pass on the information to him. Ever considered letting the people know what SAM software there is out there? > > Andrew Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 16:40:17 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:59:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Disc/k Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1F576C11D3@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 342 Lines: 8 > Don't you remember the Jetman stories from Crash, with the Eye of Oktup? Nope. YS man mesel'. Got a couple of SU, my pop probably bought a few, and a few Crash and C&VG too. Preferred YS. And the only Eye I remember was Eye of the Star Warrior (no relation presumably) __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 16:41:13 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:23:00 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS botch file Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1EBDA9679F@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 580 Lines: 15 > entering... > TANKTRIS > at the prompt is instantly converted into... > LOAD "H1:/Games/3D/TankTris" > and instantly executed. Bunch. You'd have to do this for every executable you want to feel lazy about. Plus that syntax only applies in BASIC. There could be a DOS (ie, CLI) command ALIAS that essentially does the same for DOS (eg, ALIAS dir ls - makes ls and dir synonyms), but the danger is you might rely on the BASIC aliases and start coding stuff other people mightn't be able to use.. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 16:41:30 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:19:02 +0000 Subject: Re:SOS file types Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1EAC5568C3@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 479 Lines: 10 > Yep, don't have explicit file types. Everything is just a file. What you > do with it determines what it is, thus since SNAP's and CODE files will > all be the same it won't matter anyway ... ..But typing LOAD 5 or whatever, for a code file, doesn't then go and run it... How will snapshots be loaded in this revised dos? Probably use a "SNAP jetsetwillyIII.snp" command, in fact, so forget that question. __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 16:44:46 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:47:27 +0000 Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <1D25FF58A1@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 184 Lines: 8 > Because I've been programming since I was 8? :) Only 8? I started when I was 5 ;) How come I'm also crap then? __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 16:45:34 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:15:24 GMT Subject: Speccy mags (WAS:Disc/k) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <287B2956D89@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 549 Lines: 13 > Nope. YS man mesel'. > Got a couple of SU, my pop probably bought a few, and a few Crash and > C&VG too. Preferred YS. > And the only Eye I remember was Eye of the Star Warrior (no relation > presumably) > __ > |_)ave |-|ooper Speaking of old Speccy mags, anyone have any old Your Sinclairs with tapes (in good condition) that you don't want? Mail me directly (don't annoy the already agitated list!) and quote prices etc (if you are going to be stingy enough to ask me for money *grins*) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 16:50:02 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:20:15 GMT Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <287C6EF436B@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 266 Lines: 12 > > Because I've been programming since I was 8? :) > > Only 8? > I started when I was 5 ;) > > How come I'm also crap then? > __ > |_)ave |-|ooper > I started two weeks after I was conceived and I'm crap too :( From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 17:03:22 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:31:05 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Eye Of The Star Warrior Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <19BA7C541BC@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 689 Lines: 17 > > Don't you remember the Jetman stories from Crash, with the Eye of Oktup? > Nope. YS man mesel'. > Got a couple of SU, my pop probably bought a few, and a few Crash and > C&VG too. Preferred YS. > And the only Eye I remember was Eye of the Star Warrior (no relation > presumably) Blimey, sombody else had Eye Of The Star Warrior - it alwys crashed on me if I pressed more than about three keys at once. Never really understood what i was doing and was never really that interested - but I did think I was alone in owning a copy! Eck! > __ > |_)ave |-|ooper > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 17:04:48 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:43:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@fermat.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS botch file In-Reply-To: <199612051429.OAA14981@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1292 Lines: 42 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: > 10 ALIAS "ls" = "CAT" OK.. Let's pretend: The standard keyword for the directory listing is CAT (not my choice, but we're playing a game here anyway, so it doesn't matter). CAT's token number is #09 (nine lives! :) ) SAMSON basic has the ability to change the text of any token to what you like so you could assign #09 to CAT, DIR, LS, GIVE_ME_AN_EFFING_LISTING or whatever. Since the interpreter runs on pound coins... er.. tokens, it doesn't care what the text is, as long as it's happy it's #09. So.... You can type in.. 10 GIVE_ME_AN_EFFING_LISTING ..into a program line on one machine, and when you load up the program on Bob's machine, it will read.. 10 CAT ..since the editor maps the token to the text. Now.. That's sorted... Let's go and pretend to build the machine out of lego bricks like good children that we are... :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 17:05:08 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199612051625.QAA21398@lesser.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS botch file To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:25:51 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <10592.199612051526@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Mr P R Walker" at Dec 5, 96 03:26:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2523 Lines: 63 >> > > It would be nice to have a BASIC program that is executed as the CLI is > > > first loaded so that you can configure your universe, it would save on > > Umm.. why does it need to be basic though? That way the beginner could use it! Why teach one syntax then make the user learn another to get the job done. This is the CLI/BASIC argument again. SAMbasic is so versitile! The file would be a bit longer than a non-BASIC one but it would be better. Commands to customise the BasicCLI are incorperated into BASIC programming language so why not use them? BASIC is a PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE, if you want to PROGRAM the machine to do something when you turn it on, using a PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE makes most sense! Anything could be done from BASIC, it is unfair to limit what the (novice/beginer) user can do, just for the sake of it. The user could easily write their own menu system that would be entered into on turning the machine on, the NEW at the end is not necessary! What do you want it to be? a script file? What advantages could it possibly have? The reduction in size of the file ->increased size due to script reader/ interpreter. If you want it in C/M_Code then it is easy for you to write yours as... 10 RUN "config.silly" 20 NEW You would not gain anything by forcing all to use M_Code, only loose. You cannot be suggesting this! It is even sillyer than a script file and that goes off the scale. > > Good question. We could have a config file (along the lines of config.sys), > which simply defined variables, loaded drivers etc. or we could have an > interactive thing (if desired) (along the lines of autoexec.bat), or we could > have both - or neither. Both is more flexible but may be more trouble to > set up, neither is ... out of the question, really. I don't really want us to go down the horrid PC road of having to configure all the drivers in a config.sys or autoexec.bat. We want then have a more standard and user friendly system than that. calling it a config.world would be nicer, a single program that the user writes to set up their new world how they like it. > > Oh - and C's not stupid. C's 'COOL' apparently. > > Prefer Pascal. Prefer SAMbasic and Z80. One gives you the soft, easy to get to grips with and simple to program friendly environment. The other is a more aggressive, faster, harsh, more barren world where you must overcome lord Hex to hack raw memory into living breething Machine code Haa Haa Haaaa Haa Ha. Numb. Yup. It is starting to get to me. ;o) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 17:12:07 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961205165212.008e47c4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 16:52:12 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Disc/k Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 305 Lines: 12 At 15:59 05/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> Don't you remember the Jetman stories from Crash, with the Eye of Oktup? >Nope. YS man mesel'. >Got a couple of SU, my pop probably bought a few, and a few Crash and >C&VG too. Preferred YS. Ah... YS... now there's a magazine I'm proud of :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 17:15:17 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612051706.RAA15665@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS Botch file To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:06:50 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2805 Lines: 83 Have I suddenly lost all power over the English language or are people simply not bothering to read their mails? >> entering... >> TANKTRIS >> at the prompt is instantly converted into... >> LOAD "H1:/Games/3D/TankTris" >> and instantly executed. >Bunch. >You'd have to do this for every executable you want to feel lazy >about. Yup. >Plus that syntax only applies in BASIC. There could be a DOS >(ie, CLI) command ALIAS that essentially does the same for DOS (eg, >ALIAS dir ls - makes ls and dir synonyms), ?????????????????????????????????????????? ? SEPERATE DOS? HAVE I BEEN MISSING MAILS? ?????????????????????????????????????????? As far the the high level user is concerned it is... CLI = SAMSON BASIC = DOS = NOS = TOS You must mean this, you cannot possibly be refering to aliases on the GUI! > but the danger is you might rely on the BASIC aliases and start coding > stuff other people mightn't be able to use.. > __ > |_)ave |-|ooper That PROVES IT! You simply didn't read what I wrote! To quote EXACTLY THE SAME POST as you did... >> don't think I explained what I mean properly. >> Taking what I wrote litteraly, this would lead to great problems with >> thew portability of SAMSONbasic programs as one person may have a >> memory resident procedure of the name 'Partial Concordance' that does a >> partial concordance on a set of input data. If this procedure call was >> used in a program, that program would not work on anothers SAMSON. >> >> What I actualy tried to describe was a command, lets call it 'ALIAS' >> that could be used to create memory resident ALIASes. The important bit = "...Would not work on another SAMSON... What I actualy tried to describe was.." Another bit of the sam post... >> so that you can quite happily type... >> ls "gordo.*" >> etc. >> at the CLI and have it changed into CAT when you press / >> in exactly the same way that the ROM converts DIR into CAT for you. i.e. in exactly the same way INK is changed into PEN! >> entering... >> TANKTRIS >> at the prompt is instantly converted into... >> LOAD "H1:/Games/3D/TankTris" >> and instantly executed. INSTANTLY. Not, find a procedure called tanktris and run that, but INSTANTLY CONVERTING the TANKTRIS INTO the load instruction. Was calling the command "ALIAS" just too tricky for you? Did it throw you? If this was not the case then there would be huge problems AS I SAID. If you could not be bother to read it properly that is fine, Then don't bother responding. If you accidently miss-read THE WHOLE OF THE POST then perhaps you should at least try to re-read what you are QUOTING. Numb. This is the first time I have said a cross word on this newsgroup, forgive me, it is nothing personal. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 17:20:27 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:09:13 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. In-Reply-To: <1CF0877647@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 258 Lines: 13 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: > What a fantastic letter! Loved it. So accurate. > TSRs stands for Terminate and Stay Resident (programs), BTW Just what is that meant to mean? I can't even tell whether or not you're being sarcastic... Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 17:53:47 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:56:20 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SOS PLAY command Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <380F458229E@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 293 Lines: 9 > Here's a hint for you. Buy Syncytium from Persona Software. The only problem here being, if you distribute your programs, the user needs a copu of Syncytium to hear the music. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 17:59:44 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:02:11 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3810D4E4815@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 261 Lines: 10 > Because I've been programming since I was 8? :) > Well I've been programming since I was 7. Nah. ;) ...Notice I dind't say PROGRAMMING WELL... -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 18:05:06 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:08:14 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SOS botch file Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3812745136D@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 434 Lines: 20 > > 10 ALIAS "ls" = "CAT" > > Hmm... > > 10000 DEF PROC ls > 10010 DIR > 10020 END PROC > > > HIDE 10000 To > > -Frode Yeah, but then ls would stay as ls in the listing and not run on anyone others SAM. (Okay so 10000+ would be saved too.). Also, this means 10000 is used and could be accidentaly overwritten. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 18:10:15 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:12:07 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Disc/k Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <38137865597@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 399 Lines: 16 > >Status: > > > >> Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! > >> Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye! > >> --- Jetman --- > > > >What the ... ??! > > Don't you remember the Jetman stories from Crash, with the Eye of Oktup? Excellent they were too. And never finished. D'OH! -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 18:16:57 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:19:07 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Disc/k Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <381556827A6@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 496 Lines: 16 > >> Don't you remember the Jetman stories from Crash, with the Eye of Oktup? > >Nope. YS man mesel'. > >Got a couple of SU, my pop probably bought a few, and a few Crash and > >C&VG too. Preferred YS. > > Ah... YS... now there's a magazine I'm proud of :) > Crash was great. Until it had a 'NEW LOOK', which meant only 3 pages in an issue and a bad attempt to copy YS humour. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 18:42:12 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:39:48 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961205133948_1219805361@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson filetypes Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3236 Lines: 71 In a message dated 05/12/96 07:22:35, you write: > >Right! Time I put my ideas down about all this filetype stuff. > >Let's go for a system similar to what the Archimedes uses, I can't remember >who mentioned it, and to be quite frank, I can't be bothered to >trawl back through about 120 Emails to find out. > >For those who don't know, the Archimedes uses a pretty clever >filetype system. Being an Acorn Archimedes owner, I'll try and >describe it a bit, and it is worth considering, it's very flexible. > >The Acorn has a set of filetypes, in hex that range from &000 to &fff, not >that shocking really, but there you go. > >These filetypes are divided in to groups and then the user is entitled to >use a filetype as follows: > >Types &000-&0ff - free for users use. >Types &100-&3ff - Allocated by Acorn to PD authors >Types &400-&9ff - Alloctaed by Acorn to Software Houses for Apps. >Types &a00-&aff - Reserved for future use by Acorn Apps. >Types &b00-&dff - Allocated by Acorn to software houses for Apps. >Types &e00-&fff - Allocated by Acorn for Generic Datatypes. > >Then for each filetype, a number of system variables can be setup, such as a >textual equivalent, eg filetype &fff is a text file, so when you want to set >the filetype of a file to text, you just type (at the cli): > *Settype , in this case TEXT. It's very simple to use. > >System variables can also be setup to tell the GUI what to do with a file >of a certain type when it is double clicked upon. This variable is set up >simply using : > >*set Alias$RunType_ Run .!RunImage >either via the CLI, or via the GUI from a !Run file. > >It's a good idea, that way people can setup their system in their own way >to recognise what ever filetypes that they want it to, and when a new >application is 'seen' by the GUI, it can do all this setting up itself. > >I admit, perhaps it might take about a 100th of a second to do it all, but >hey! It only has to be done the once, when you boot up your machine! > >Surely it's worth considering this kind of idea! > >Sorry to have waffled for so long, but I felt that it had to be said. > _ >(_'tewart. >,_) > Don't be sorry, it was very interesting - and informative. I've never used the Archimedes so it was interesting to hear how they do it. This idea does sound like it could work and having had a think since downloading the email I would like to tag another idea onto the end of it. At the moment SAMDOS/MasterDOS uses a fixed table of filetypes which, because it is in ROM cannot be changed. Well now that (we hope) much of the DOS and MasterBasic will be moved into the SRAM how about setting a little bit aside and putting the filetype table in such a form that it can be updated. This will allow programs to devise their own filetype, and structure, and put their own code letters into the table. By extension then it would be possible to even consider a table, holding filetype to program conversion, on the hard disc so that if you load a file of type "FRED" as a direct command (as against from within Basic or within an application) the the designated program for handling "FRED" type files will be loaded in and the selected file handed to it. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 18:42:12 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:39:51 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961205133950_1387457073@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS botch file Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1515 Lines: 34 In a message dated 05/12/96 14:24:45, you write: [cut] Liked quite a bit of the idea of using ALIAS but think it needs to be chopped in two. Part 1 - Use of ALIAS program to change the word used for a Basic command/function. Many years ago I help someone produce an Afrikaans ROM for the ZX81 - not nice because the words that were required were of different lengths to the English words they replaced. However, in in the SRAM table of keywords there was enough space, then a program could be run to change any keyword(s) you wanted. If you think about it the keyword is the guide, once the token is created then change the keyword entry and you change what get printed out, you also change what need to be typed in. I think this should be a separate program as it will have to ask for permision to alter the SRAM. Part 2. Taking up another idea I have read on the list (sorry, can't remember who had it) of using procedures that are not exactly part of the program to add features. So, using the example given: >entering... >TANKTRIS >at the prompt is instantly converted into... >LOAD "H1:/Games/3D/TankTris" >and instantly executed. would in fact call a hidden procedure that does the job. As most of you will know, there is already a feature that goes part way to this in MasterBasic. But extending it to allow people to in effect load their special procedure block at the start of a session, then raise the start of 'normal' basic so other programs can be loaded, is not a bad idea at all. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 18:42:13 1996 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:39:54 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961205133953_1521043377@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1968 Lines: 39 In a message dated 05/12/96 15:16:52, you write: >Sorry Bob, but surely what you mean here is _you_ are used to it. If we're >talking about what _new users_ will think when they get to this new OS/DOS >(Whatever!) then we have to look at what is simpler and easy to type. Sorry Lee, but I have to stick with what I said. The 'logic' of the syntax of any one command is not, in itself, important. However, the whole thing (when strung together) is. There is a very long story of how I have been involved with computers since the age of 12, but I will save that for another day. But what I will say is that most people want to learn, but they want to learn without pain. That is why Basic first came into being after all, because it was so much easier to learn than Fortran, Algol, Assembler and the rest. Yes the newcomer will have to learn the syntax from a manual, but if the syntax is structured so that the learning process is easy then the newcomer is going to get on a lot faster. I'm not talking about the DOS (unix may be a good DOS but that is all it is) I'm talking about the whole system. Many home computers have come and gone. The most successful, the ZX81 family and the Spectrum family (in which I would also include SAM) have been so popular because they we user friendly. The early machines even made it very difficult to get things wrong by giving you special cursors that indcated what was being expected next as you entered a line and helped even further by giving you colour coded single key entry. Once you learnt the pattern, half the battle was over. Now we need to do the same with the new generation of SAM. I'me not talking about going back to single key entry (although I do want to sort out those that are supported at the moment) but I am talking about making the new version of Basic easier to learn by reducing the number of rules you have to learn. Strange, but in so doing, you also make the new Basic easier to write. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 5 19:18:09 1996 Message-Id: <199612051916.TAA07729@mail.enterprise.net> From: David Munden To: sam-users Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:40:49 -0000 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 243 Lines: 8 > What is the acronym TSR? Anyway, what quick and dirty routes? And doesn't > the word Quick imply easy to implement and cheap? It stands for Terminate & Stay Resident. _ |_)avid (\/)unden http://homepages.enterprise.net/davidm/index.html From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 00:16:59 1996 Message-Id: <199612060014.AAA08367@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Time for tables? Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 96 00:10:48 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1201 Lines: 26 On 1996/12/5 22:57:14 you wrote: >At the moment SAMDOS/MasterDOS uses a fixed table of filetypes which, because >it is in ROM cannot be changed. Well now that (we hope) much of the DOS and >MasterBasic will be moved into the SRAM how about setting a little bit >aside and putting the filetype table in such a form that it can be updated. >This will allow programs to devise their own filetype, and structure, and >put their own code letters into the table. By extension then it would be >possible to even consider a table, holding filetype to program conversion, on >the hard disc so that if you load a file of type "FRED" as a direct command >(as against from within Basic or within an application) the the designated >program for handling "FRED" type files will be loaded in and the selected >file handed to it. > >Bob. > A good idea ... giving full expandability! And another idea, why not hold a table of keyword types AND system messages in SRAM - and change the spelling however the user wants! Then you can spell DIR as CAT to your hearts content - and even change the spelling on error messages! It would also mean the whole system could be customised, and remain compatible. David L. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 10:47:11 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:50:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: DI in ISRs... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1887 Lines: 38 Only one message? i cleared out my mailbox and come in this morning expecting 100+ messages and all I got was one... Have all of you been to a party that I wasn't invited to or has my mailserver broken down...? Anyway.. the real reason why I'm writing to this... I've decided to approach the development of my MIDI toolkit project (I've thought about four billion things to add to it already!) in a different way. By paging out the ROM0 and sticking my own code in there using a system similar to CP/M, called XAP (Xenoa Application Platform), which I'm kind of developing at the same time for that project and any future ones. Part of it deals with the interupt (IM 1) service routine. I thought about no bothering disabling the interups as it's going through the routine incase a MIDI OUT interupt came during the processing of a FRAME interrupt. (These are the only two interrupts I'm bothering with at the moment). The MIDI OUT routine sticks a byte (flag) into memory if the interrupt is a MIDI OUT. And the FRAME interrupt increases the frames counter. If it's anything else, it won't even bother with... I'm reading port 249 to detirmine which interrupt it is but neither of the routines seemed to work. After about 15 minutes of faffing around looking for bugs, (stepping through the code seemed to work fine), I decided to disable the interrupts for the ISR. And the thing worked fine... Why? Why is it that you need to disable the interrupts to read port 249? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 11:36:56 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:38:01 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: Re: DI in ISRs... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 753 Lines: 20 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Justin Skists wrote: > After about 15 minutes of faffing around looking for bugs, (stepping > through the code seemed to work fine), I decided to disable the > interrupts for the ISR. And the thing worked fine... > > Why? Why is it that you need to disable the interrupts to read port 249? Dunno, never come across that one before.... You may be having problems if you read port 249 too slowly, generally I push the bare minimum of registers before testing it. Remember also that the Z80 disables interrupts whenever an interrupt occurs, so you will have to remember to reenable them at the end of your interrupt routine. (Sorry if I sound patronising, I have no idea how much you know; this may not be helping much) Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 11:44:27 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:39:41 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam-users Subject: Going down... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 149 Lines: 10 This being a University account, I'll be logging off on Tuesday for the Christmas ""holiday"". Will see you all again in about a month. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 11:53:43 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:57:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@napier.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: DI in ISRs... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1583 Lines: 51 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, A.S. Collier wrote: > > Why? Why is it that you need to disable the interrupts to read port 249? > > Dunno, never come across that one before.... You may be having problems if > you read port 249 too slowly, generally I push the bare minimum of > registers before testing it. It went... 0038h ld hl, (im1_v) jp (hl) . . . im1_v .dw 0100h . . . 0100h push af in a, (249) (something like that, anyway) > Remember also that the Z80 disables interrupts whenever an interrupt > occurs, so you will have to remember to reenable them at the end of your > interrupt routine. I didn't not know that the Z80 automatically disables interrupts... I thought it only diabled interrupts is DI (hence what I thought the reason for DI was used in the SAM ROM) was issued or a NMI was triggered.. > (Sorry if I sound patronising, I have no idea how much > you know; this may not be helping much) Don't worry if you think you're sounding patronising. In my experience, even the "dumbest" answer sparks of an explosion of inspiration that eventually solves the problem for me... (Not only that, even I sound patronising at times) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 12:25:24 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:44:21 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061144.AA23658@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS file types Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3259 Lines: 67 Keith expounded: > >(the file MAGIC.OS would contain...) > >PPM ; *.ppm ; "P1"@0 ; Portable Pixmap ; IMAGE > >GIF ; *.gif ; "GIF"@0 ; Compuserve Image ; COMPRESSED IMAGE > >JPEG ; *.jpg|*.jpeg|*.jfif ; "JFIF"@0 ; JPEG Format Image ; COMPRESSED IMAGE > >DOTZ ; *.Z ; 1FD9@0 ; Unix compress ; COMPRESSED > >GZIP ; *.gz ; 1FB8@0 ; Gnu ZIP ; COMPRESSED One thing which I failed to make explicit is that the "MAGIC.OS" file solution to file format typing makes for /much/ better interoperability with other systems (the Web, PCs etc.) than a registry of numbered file types. "Numb" asked: > Where exactly would the magic.os file live? on every single disk (for thoes > who do not own hard drives)? Yeah, on every disk. If it takes up more than 10K of your 500K diskette then you are using more file-types than the Sam currently supports anyway. > There is little need for 2 such groups! I only jumped to a higher level > description as I figured that you would be able to appreciate that the > extensions could provide more information than an extension. > Well, not neccessaraly more information but different information, > in this case the .extensions would be a more specific description of the file. If I understand you correctly, you are expecting the operating system to be able to describe the purpose of the files it is given. Isn't that expecting the OS to be more intelligent than most? > You declare that the programer should have more control, but if > .extensions are necessary to describe the file then he has less. No, the extensions are not mandatory - they are used when they are available. 99% of the worlds GIF files have an identifying suffix. If you don't want your files to have an identifying suffix, but you want the OS user interface (GUI, BASIC, DOS whatever) to be able to display the type of your file, even if it has just been imported from a DOS disk or downloaded from the Web, then you (or your file transfer utility) can add a line to MAGIC.OS, say GIF-Anim ; webmovie ; "GIF89"@0 ; Compuserve Animation ; COMPRESSED MOVIE It's extensible, interoperable, and under the application's control, not the operating system's. Notice that the MAGIC.OS file could be moved between systems with your files, put on MS-DOS disks created by the SAM, etc. > Looking at your table of descriptions, may I offer a logical impovement? > Yes? Thank you. > > Why don't we include tabs in the file description (whoevers system we go for) > to include information relevent to the particular file type (asin BASIC) > e.g. make > > JPEG Format Image into JPEG Format Image, len / > Executable CODE file into Exectable, start /, len / > > etc. > this makes them more readable in a directory. Sure, why not. But this sort of thing is for the output of DIR in BASIC/DOS specifically. In a GUI, my first column would be used to choose an icon for the file, my description would be used in a "long listing" of files and your extra numbers would be displayed in a Macintosh-like "Get Info on File" window. I hope you can see I am looking at the larger picture than just the DIR command (or CAT for Bob ;). / To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re:SOS file types In-Reply-To: <1EAC5568C3@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 575 Lines: 19 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: ;>> Yep, don't have explicit file types. Everything is just a file. What you ;>> do with it determines what it is, thus since SNAP's and CODE files will ;>> all be the same it won't matter anyway ... ;> ;>..But typing LOAD 5 or whatever, for a code file, doesn't then go and ;>run it... It will if it was saved as an auto-execute file, which is more or less what a SNAP is ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 12:46:10 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:18:24 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061218.AA23679@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 912 Lines: 18 > Er,, this may already have been covered, so don't bite > my head of if it has, but why do we need filetypes? As > far as the SOD [a very good name, whoever suggested it!] > is concerned could we not just have a binary file with the > first, say, 16 bytes used as for identification. The SOD > doesn't need to know whether a file is a screen file, a > BASIC file, or a GUI file - only the BASIC interpreter > needs to know if a file is a BASIC file or not, only the > graphics viewer needs to know if a file is a screen file > or not, and so on... My philosophy exactly. But remember, no computer is an island, and the OS should not attempt to make it so. Your suggestion to use "the first, say, 16 bytes used as for identification" does not cope with the millions of files already out there. See my message under the heading "File types" for my suggestion as to how to identify the types of files. / To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS botch file In-Reply-To: <1EBDA9679F@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1115 Lines: 32 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Dave Hooper wrote: ;>> entering... ;>> TANKTRIS ;>> at the prompt is instantly converted into... ;>> LOAD "H1:/Games/3D/TankTris" ;>> and instantly executed. ;> ;>Bunch. ;>You'd have to do this for every executable you want to feel lazy ;>about. Plus that syntax only applies in BASIC. There could be a DOS ;>(ie, CLI) command ALIAS that essentially does the same for DOS (eg, ;>ALIAS dir ls - makes ls and dir synonyms), but the danger is you ;>might rely on the BASIC aliases and start coding stuff other people ;>mightn't be able to use.. Apologies if I've missed the point here but I've been ill recently and didn't feel like reading all 380-odd mails to get up to date so I may be repeating things as well. Sorry if I do but I promise I'll catch up soon .. Surely if you enter an aliased command in a program the OS should expand it and store the expanded version instead of the alias so it wouldn't be a problem ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 12:49:14 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:25:53 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: DI in ISRs... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 387 Lines: 29 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Justin Skists wrote: > 0038h ld hl, (im1_v) > jp (hl) > . > > im1_v .dw 0100h > > > 0100h push af > in a, (249) > You would be well advised to push HL before using it. Alternatively, don't use HL for this. I would use something like: 0038 interrupt: im1_v: EQU $+1 JP nnnn nnnn PUSH AF IN a,(249) etc etc Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 12:52:14 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:25:39 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061225.AA23682@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS unwritten LOAD botch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 723 Lines: 19 > One thing that may make live a little easyer for hard drive owners would be > a basic program that is LOADed and RUN every time the user enters the > SAMSONbasic CLI. > This program could have a number of DEFKEYCODE and KEY commands in if the > user so wishes. Great idea - one for the Samson BASIC interpreter developers to think about. (Was it Ian Collier who asked for modular BASIC files making up a BASIC package? That functionality could be used to achieve this. Line numbers would be a sticking point.) > It would be, in effect a config.sys Yeauch! Don't call it a CONFIG.SYS, you'll frighten everyone off! :) I'd say it's more like a .basicrc in Unix, or an AUTOEXEC.BAS in an imaginary ??-DOS. / To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <961205133953_1521043377@emout03.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1230 Lines: 36 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: ;>In a message dated 05/12/96 15:16:52, you write: ;> ;>>Sorry Bob, but surely what you mean here is _you_ are used to it. If we're ;>>talking about what _new users_ will think when they get to this new OS/DOS ;>>(Whatever!) then we have to look at what is simpler and easy to type. ;> ;>Sorry Lee, but I have to stick with what I said. The 'logic' of the syntax of ;>any one command is not, in itself, important. However, the whole thing (when ;>strung together) is. [Snipped Life history ..] ;>why Basic first came into being after all, because it was so much easier to ;>learn than Fortran, Algol, Assembler and the rest. Correct me if I'm wrong but these are _programming languages_, agreed ? I was argueing about examples given by Ian Collier which are DOS commands, I never mentioned BASIC as I still feel that the two should be seperate, and I don't see any reason why the BASIC syntax can't be changed to the new DOS versions ... [Snipped history lesson which I knew anyway ...] Sorry to be so sarcastic but ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 12:58:35 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:44:22 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061244.AA23726@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson filetypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 738 Lines: 16 > These filetypes are divided in to groups and then the user is entitled to > use a filetype as follows: > > Types &000-&0ff - free for users use. > Types &100-&3ff - Allocated by Acorn to PD authors > Types &400-&9ff - Alloctaed by Acorn to Software Houses for Apps. > Types &a00-&aff - Reserved for future use by Acorn Apps. > Types &b00-&dff - Allocated by Acorn to software houses for Apps. > Types &e00-&fff - Allocated by Acorn for Generic Datatypes. The words "Allocated by Acorn" are the ones that I worry about. I don't want to have to register a file type with Bob and get an upgrade to BASIC, SamsonDOS, SamsonGUI, SamsonNet and all my other OS software every time someone on the Internet invents a new file format. / To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson filetypes In-Reply-To: <9612061244.AA23726@turner.cursci.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 655 Lines: 15 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Keith Turner wrote: > The words "Allocated by Acorn" are the ones that I worry about. > I don't want to have to register a file type with Bob and get an upgrade > to BASIC, SamsonDOS, SamsonGUI, SamsonNet and all my other OS software > every time someone on the Internet invents a new file format. Why should you have to do that? Think about it - would Arch users tolerate it this if that were the case? What actually happens is that when your system sees a new application, that application tells the system - my files look like this, and if the user is silly enough to double click on one of them, this is what you do. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 13:04:33 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 12:55:38 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson filetypes - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 509 Lines: 15 > The words "Allocated by Acorn" are the ones that I > worry about. I don't want to have to register a > file type with Bob and get an upgrade to BASIC, > SamsonDOS, SamsonGUI, SamsonNet and all my other OS > software every time someone on the Internet invents > a new file format. This is not how it works, the filetypes are only numbers and all the 'Allocated by Acorn' bits mean that they are reserved for use with their products - there is no upgrade that needs to be done, that *would* be daft. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 13:11:04 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:04:44 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061304.AA23745@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 910 Lines: 20 > > If, on the other hand the extension IS part of the filename then we have to > > look at and say "how do we specify the syntax that will allow this to be > > treated as a unified filename in one situation, but at the same time allow it > > to be treated as two separate things in another situation?" > > Why should we want do that? There is absolutely no need to separete > the extension from the filename. May I qualify this? On some systems which a lot of users like (not including myself) e.g. CP/M, DOS, Win95, the extension is not merely informative, it defines the file format, so it IS appropriate to treat is as a seperate field. However, on the SAM we have escaped from that plague up till now, and we might be able to keep clear of it in the future. In my view, treating the suffix as a seperate field in the filename is just the same as using the suffix to specify the file format. / Message-Id: <9612061312.AA23753@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: NEW IDEA!!!! (in this forum anyway - old idea in the real world) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 929 Lines: 21 > It would be nice to have a BASIC program that is executed as the CLI is > first loaded so that you can configure your universe, it would save on > the need for the battery backed memory. There is no reason why the first > line of this program could not be set to RUN "GUI" on the mass market > production machines so they need never see the CLI! trouble is the need > for a hard drive. While we are still talking about the SRAM, and haven't actually specified it, why don't we make the SRAM a 512K one, and put the contents of a bootable diskette on it? The SAM would boot from the SRAM, run whatever programs you want with whatever settings you want. There would be no problems with adding new variables to the SRAM - just add a new file. You could even make your SAM a Lemmings-only machine if you wanted to. / To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Wild Cards. In-Reply-To: <961204111004_807352799@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1091 Lines: 29 On Wed, 4 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: ;>of the posting regarding syntax that it was written several years ago, I ;>don't claim to be right all the time - but if people will not even open their ;>minds and think about what is being said then how can we move forward? Well if _you_ do this and listen to what some of us are saying ... Listen to your own advice Bob ... [small snip] ;>I have given the reasons for change, I have justified each of the main points ;>(file command syntax, wild card characters, and changes to the PROC ;>structure) but many of the replies have taken the stance that either: don't ;>like the new syntax so won't have it; or too much typing so I won't have it. ;>I've yet to hear any reason WHY the syntax is not valid. ;> We never said it wasn't VALID, we just said it was a bad idea 'coz we thought it wasn't the best way to go, and then suggested better ones which you just point-blank refused. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 14:01:30 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:52:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: DI in ISRs... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1173 Lines: 31 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, A.S. Collier wrote: > You would be well advised to push HL before using it. DOH!!! OH POOP-A-SCOOP!!!!! Of course!!!!!!! That explains the (while I was saving the address pointer of the data, which is in HL which I checked when I stopped the program) reason why my pointer jumped back down to 300dec odd.... What an embarrasing mistake!!! Why didn't I spot this? > Alternatively, don't use HL for this. I would use something like: > > 0038 interrupt: > im1_v: EQU $+1 > JP nnnn (Little time trying to work out how this would work whilst still keeping my idea of an easily alterable platform) What an excellent idea! It would even cut down on the processing time...! I've got a lot of catching up to do with the talent on this list... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 14:20:56 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:02:24 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061402.AA23815@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson filetypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1227 Lines: 28 > On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Keith Turner wrote: > > > The words "Allocated by Acorn" are the ones that I worry about. > > I don't want to have to register a file type with Bob and get an upgrade > > to BASIC, SamsonDOS, SamsonGUI, SamsonNet and all my other OS software > > every time someone on the Internet invents a new file format. > > Why should you have to do that? Think about it - would Arch users > tolerate it this if that were the case? > > What actually happens is that when your system sees a new application, > that application tells the system - my files look like this, and if the > user is silly enough to double click on one of them, this is what you do. Okay. Apple are in charge of the registry of XXXX/XXXX MacOS file types. The IANA are in charge of Internet/Web/MIME file types, (text/html, application/framemaker, etc.) Which august body do we appoint to allocate Sam file type numbers to file formats? If we implement Web software on Samson, how do we ensure that all MIME file types have Sam file type numbers? Do we ask the IANA to liase with Bob Brenchley? How do we give a file type number to a file imported from a DOS floppy? Does anyone here know what I mean by interoperability? / Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:16:25 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Soon goin' home.. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3954A8D2EF4@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 415 Lines: 19 Well, we're approaching my final week at uni before Christmas, so as of next Friday, I'll be away from this list... Ian, it's you who has the archive of the list isn't it..? What's that URL again, please? And now.. to begin the 7 day countdown - a giant smiley - _ @ \ | | @ _/ -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX X X X Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! From imc Fri Dec 6 14:36:12 1996 Subject: Re: Soon goin' home.. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:36:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3954A8D2EF4@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Dec 6, 96 02:16:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 258 Lines: 9 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:16:25 GMT, James R Curry said: > Ian, it's you who has the archive of the list isn't it..? What's > that URL again, please? http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/users/ian.collier/Misc/sam-users/ It goes up to Nov 22 at the moment. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 14:48:35 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:27:36 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: The SAMson GUI (Yay!) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3957A6709E9@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 452 Lines: 14 Okay, just a quick point. The ONE.. and believe me it's the only ONE... The ONE feauture of Windows '95 that I like is the fact that there's always an ON SCREEN CLOCK in the status bar at the bottom right.. Could we have one of these in the SAMson GUI? Wow.. I might of started a new topic (Which'll be a flame war within 3 days, no doubt ;) ) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX X X X Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 14:49:35 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:33:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMson GUI (Yay!) In-Reply-To: <3957A6709E9@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 524 Lines: 17 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, James R Curry wrote: ;>Okay, just a quick point. The ONE.. and believe me it's the only ;>ONE... The ONE feauture of Windows '95 that I like is the fact that ;>there's always an ON SCREEN CLOCK in the status bar at the bottom ;>right.. Could we have one of these in the SAMson GUI? ;> Once we've got a hardware clock it'd be no problem .. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 15:02:51 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612061450.OAA18815@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:50:51 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 640 Lines: 16 > The ONE feauture of Windows '95 that I like is the fact that > there's always an ON SCREEN CLOCK in the status bar at the bottom > right.. Could we have one of these in the SAMson GUI? Back to menu bars are we? Yes, I 'recon' we will need some sort of 'stay on top' flag that can be set on any application, e.g. the clock. I think we should really get on with SAMSON BASIC first though. Only looking at the big things about the GUI such as the numbers of letters in the filenames. The things that it must share with BASIC. Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the GUI as well as independently? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 15:07:46 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:42:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@larch.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS unwritten LOAD botch In-Reply-To: <9612061225.AA23682@turner.cursci.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 970 Lines: 22 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Keith Turner wrote: > Great idea - one for the Samson BASIC interpreter developers to think about. > (Was it Ian Collier who asked for modular BASIC files making up a BASIC > package? That functionality could be used to achieve this. Line numbers > would be a sticking point.) Do we have to have line numbers at all? It's the one main thing I'm still not quite sure that I like about SAM/Sinclair basic... It was just a (CLS =/= BASIC tribe style) question... Then again, that's heading towards QBASIC style Basic and I certainly don't like that! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 15:16:41 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:53:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI In-Reply-To: <199612061450.OAA18815@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 181 Lines: 7 > Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the GUI > as well as independently? > Numb. But of course. We also want to run Basic GUI Applications. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 15:19:01 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:56:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@larch.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 678 Lines: 17 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Tim Wells wrote: > > Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the GUI > > as well as independently? > > Numb. > > But of course. We also want to run Basic GUI Applications. I'm beginning to feel sorry for the GUI/SAMBasic writers.... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 15:21:24 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:02:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam users Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI In-Reply-To: <199612061450.OAA18815@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 988 Lines: 33 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: ;>> The ONE feauture of Windows '95 that I like is the fact that ;>> there's always an ON SCREEN CLOCK in the status bar at the bottom ;>> right.. Could we have one of these in the SAMson GUI? ;> ;>Back to menu bars are we? Erm no. He said Status Bar, different thing surely ... ;>Yes, I 'recon' we will need some sort of 'stay on top' flag that can be ;>set on any application, e.g. the clock. ;> This is a good idea though ... ;>I think we should really get on with SAMSON BASIC first though. ;>Only looking at the big things about the GUI such as the numbers of ;>letters in the filenames. The things that it must share with BASIC. ;> ;>Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the GUI ;>as well as independently? ;>Numb. Yep, I don't see why not ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 16:04:27 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199612061549.PAA08078@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:49:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee Willis" at Dec 6, 96 03:02:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2594 Lines: 72 > > On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: > It is true, I did it. I confess! > ;>> The ONE feauture of Windows '95 that I like is the fact that > ;>> there's always an ON SCREEN CLOCK in the status bar at the bottom > ;>> right.. Could we have one of these in the SAMson GUI? > ;> > ;>Back to menu bars are we? > > Erm no. He said Status Bar, different thing surely ... > But it has a thing you can select on it!? How about refering to it as a menu-producing-bar! It is good that it does not live on the screen all of the time -waisting room. But it is annoying having your cursor drift to the bottom of the screeen and having a huge great gray line appear in the way of the desktop! I re-state my vote: NO MENU BAR ON SAMSON GUI! or to compromise: A moveable, re-sizeable 'front pannel' ala Solaris. > ;>Yes, I 'recon' we will need some sort of 'stay on top' flag that can be > ;>set on any application, e.g. the clock. > > This is a good idea though ... > The other windows are arranged in order of most recent use? Have we decide how we are to multitask yet? How user configureable will the time allocation be? If you open 2 windows of the same type do you load 2 seperate version of it? Or do you get the same main program with seperate sets of variables? Should this be programmer choosable? -If we want a BASIC window then we DO need to worry about these things! > ;>Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the GUI > ;>as well as independently? > ;>Numb. > > Yep, I don't see why not ... > > Lee. > Neither do I as long as we let it know it is NOT being run in its native form when in the GUI! else REAL programs would be scuppered trying to run! We would also need a number of new commands for the purpose of killing the window. If the window is closed by the GUI then we don't want 50000 messages saying how typing EXIT is NECESSARY, ala windows (lower case 'w'!). We would need an EXIT command to kill the window from within the window. It would be nice to have a KILL GUI command to kill the GUI from around BASIC and leaving you as a raw CLI still running the same program! The way you must type EXIT then press ALT4 500000 times before you get to a raw CLI from windows is VERY annoying too! We obviously need a 'GUI' command to kill BASIC and go into the GUI environment. How about a 'SPAWN GUI' command to spawn the GUI ARROUND the CLI! i.e. boot the GUI, load a SAMSON BASIC window from within the GUI, have this window running the same program, again exactly as it was before the command! Just another idea! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 16:09:14 1996 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <19900.199612061557@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Bye To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:57:12 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 218 Lines: 7 Okay... as soon as I can remember the address I need to unsubscribe from here, I'm going to leave you to it - it's time for the Christmas holidays at last! Fido here I come... ;) Paul (PS Have a good Christmas, all) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 16:15:36 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:04:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI In-Reply-To: <199612061549.PAA08078@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 496 Lines: 16 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, SL Harding wrote: ;>I re-state my vote: NO MENU BAR ON SAMSON GUI! ;>or to compromise: A moveable, re-sizeable 'front pannel' ala Solaris. You shouldn't say Solaris as that is the Operating System you're using, NOT the window system. I presume you mean Motif or something similar as X-Windows has nothing like this ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 16:30:25 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS unwritten LOAD botch To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:22:07 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Dec 6, 96 02:42:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 336 Lines: 11 > Do we have to have line numbers at all? It's the one main thing I'm still > not quite sure that I like about SAM/Sinclair basic... > Line numbers is one of the things that makes BASIC BASIC. I like them - then I can use expressions like GOTO a*2+731 etc.. also, KEYIN would be a bit of a bitch to use without# line numbers. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 16:33:21 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:25:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612061549.PAA08078@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Dec 6, 96 03:49:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 298 Lines: 11 > Have we decide how we are to multitask yet? > On the existing SAM, I'm not too fussed about multitasking. What I think would be more useful is the ability to have several programs each in their own window, and then to select which one is active. The active window gets the full 6MHz... -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 16:34:23 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:28:14 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee Willis" at Dec 6, 96 04:04:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 407 Lines: 12 > You shouldn't say Solaris as that is the Operating System you're using, > NOT the window system. I presume you mean Motif or something similar as > X-Windows has nothing like this ... > Would it be an idea to completely divorce the display side of the SAM's OS from the rest of it? That way a graphics card would be easy to add. Perhaps we could have something modelled on a slimmed down X-term. -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 16:34:23 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:29:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 562 Lines: 19 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: ;>> Have we decide how we are to multitask yet? ;>> ;>On the existing SAM, I'm not too fussed about multitasking. ;>What I think would be more useful is the ability to have several ;>programs each in their own window, and then to select which one ;>is active. The active window gets the full 6MHz... ;> But on the SAMSON we definitely should have multitasking ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard!