From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 16:49:07 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612061642.QAA19066@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:42:56 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 6483 Lines: 165 BOB> At the moment SAMDOS/MasterDOS uses a fixed table of filetypes which, BOB> because it is in ROM cannot be changed. Well now that (we hope) much BOB> of the DOS and MasterBasic will be moved into the SRAM how about BOB> setting a little bit aside and putting the filetype table in such a BOB> form that it can be updated. This will allow programs to devise BOB> their own filetype, and structure, and put their own code letters BOB> into the table. I always assumed the table would live in flash (quivilent) it is necessary for expandability. Keith> The words "Allocated by Acorn" are the ones that I worry about. Keith> I don't want to have to register a file type with Bob and get an Keith> upgrade to BASIC, SamsonDOS, SamsonGUI, SamsonNet and all my other Keith> OS software every time someone on the Internet invents a new file Keith> format. NO! as a logic 4 letters will be chosen for the file types! that the much of the argument of using letters over numbers in the first place! A new file format licenced to use the letters NCAD would produce a directory entry reading... TreesLiveInRivers 84 NCAD file, len= 9746453 Even before your table was updated! and perhaps... TreesLiveInRivers 84 Ninja CAD object,len=9746453 after the type name had been defined. This is nicer but the original is still informative. > What actually happens is that when your system sees a new application, > that application tells the system - my files look like this, and if the > user is silly enough to double click on one of them, this is what you > do. This is the proplem you see, we need to have the 4 letter file descriptors (in the directory entry, not the file name) dished out by a single organisation. If 2 applications use the same 4 letters then each time you load the other one it would alter your fuller description of that type! One miniut file of type BCAD are shown as type 'Barry CAD, len /LEN', the next they are all 'BeCky ADvendventure creator file"s! I am not certain that giving appications permission to alter ANY part of the sytem set up without first warning you anyway. This maybe more confusing for a new user like this I surpose. We could always have a 'don't you dare alter my setup' system variable that is set to zero on new machines, thatway those who have enough sense to care and customise their setup will have the sense to set it to 1. It makes sense for the type of application to open when you click on a certain file type to be stated in the central table (over putting it in the individual directory entry), In fact it is a great idea! If we let the individual applications write this to the file there could be trouble though! Surpose you get a 2nd art program, it would fight with your first art proggie for who gets each type of screen file! It could even be a dynamic fight if we plan them badly! One time, you click on a gif and pro1 loads up, you click on a tiff and pro2 gets it! If you continue to use both and they are hostile, new time it may be the other way arround! Why not just a window, somewhere the user can look at the list of file types and, using a simple program chooser could pick the program to deal with each. This is for the GUI though! It would not be possible to use the same applications from the CLI! There is little point in having 2 applications that can be loaded, one for the CLI and one for the GUI! Talking about the GUI, It has already been pointed out that there is a real need to have an entrys in this table to say which icons is to be displayed due to the various filetypes. Why not give simple addresses from the hard drive in the table... e.g. H1://GUI/SystemStuff/Icons/TextDoc.ssn H1://GUI/SystemStuff/Icons/ProTrak.ssn simple and obvious you say, but, what about this idea... H1://GUI/SystemStuff/Icons/GIF/ H1://GUI/SystemStuff/Icons/IFF/ In the entrys for each of the picture formats. That way we can write the GUI to put the filename at the end of these extensions and thus you could have the icons for the pictures as small icon sized versions of themselfs, a default picture could be put in each of these directorys in case the small icon version has not been generated. Macs look nice. SomeOneWhosPostIDeletedAccidently> Who will we get to dish out the file SomeOneWhosPostIDeletedAccidently> types, something about web addresses SomeOneWhosPostIdeletedAccidently> etc. Ages ago I suggested that the list asseses requests for new file types, giving the owner of the DOS a vito. -read you posts before you delete them! Lee> Just ignore types, it's a lot easier. Easyier for us, not the user. We have special types on the SAM, it is a great idea, so why not extend it to its logical conclusion? Why abolish one of our handyest, descriptive feratures? Simon> DIR "*.gif" Simon> Simon> would do the job quite happily, thangyewverymuch. Simon> Simon> The .GIF extension is now quite firmly fixed for GIF images, and is Simon> used independently of the underlying filesystem by everything from Simon> web browsers to graphics handling software. Simon> True, but SAMSON specific filetypes are a BONUS. Do you want to rename all of your BASIC programs to ShorterName.BAS just so you can go... DIR "*.BAS" or do you want to go... DIR "~BAS" ? This simple feature would make todays SAMbasic so much nicer. Simon> I'm not going to write the COPY function which handles copying GIF Simon> files from other machines and then has to sort out the extensions Simon> in the directory space between "animated gif" and whathaveyou. Simon> You're going to end up with Simon> a COPY command that takes up >64K at this rate. This is true, files from alien systems got using raw ftp etc. would not conform to our file descriptions, they would simply be listed as CODE files. A utility on the desktop to 'guess' the type of a file from its .extension may be workable but I don't think it is for the release machine. I will say it again, descriptions are a bonus! The BASIC control over the extensions is important, we must be able to do... RENAME "*.gif" TO "~GIF" or should that be... RENAME "*.gif" TO "*~GIF" ? Can someone please suggest a better syntax than this stupid idea of mine! It is obvious that the extension should be another field, perhaps... LOAD "ob*" CODE LOAD "*" GIF RENAME "*.gif" TO "*" GIF RENAME "*.iff" IFF TO "*" CODE How bad is this for the syntax checker? I don't like the idea of making GIF, IFF (and CODE) tokens, there could be lots! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:03:01 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:55:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam users Subject: Re:SOS file types In-Reply-To: <199612061642.QAA19066@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1030 Lines: 32 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: ;>Lee> Just ignore types, it's a lot easier. ;> ;>Easyier for us, not the user. Why is this difficult for the user, it has no effect on them. You were talking about storing a 4-byte header in the file which _is_ the same as I was talking about. The file is still a file. It doesn't technically have a file type as far as the DOS is concerned. ;>It is obvious that the extension should be another field, perhaps... ;> ;>LOAD "ob*" CODE ;>LOAD "*" GIF ;>RENAME "*.gif" TO "*" GIF ;>RENAME "*.iff" IFF TO "*" CODE ;> ;>How bad is this for the syntax checker? It's bad for us, 'coz its a horrible pain in the posterior since we shouldn't have to worry about how the DOS sees the file, we should be able to just create, use and write files as we like without worrying about having to convert types so the DOS knows what its doing ! Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:14:47 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:01:15 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061701.AA23992@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 387 Lines: 11 > On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, SL Harding wrote: > > ;>I re-state my vote: NO MENU BAR ON SAMSON GUI! > ;>or to compromise: A moveable, re-sizeable 'front pannel' ala Solaris. Lee flamed: > You shouldn't say Solaris as that is the Operating System you're using, > NOT the window system. I presume you mean Motif or something similar as > X-Windows has nothing like this ... No. Numb's right. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:16:02 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612061715.RAA19270@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:15:20 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 732 Lines: 19 > > Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the > > GUI as well as independently? > > Numb. > > But of course. We also want to run Basic GUI Applications. > Tim W. We will want the mouse to be able to interact with this small BASIC window. Converting the output of the 'card into the RELATIVE X and Y mouse co-ords and buttons. If the mouse is clicked outside the window, the fact that it clicked is to be hidden from BASIC. Should M_Code programs launched from the SAMSONbasic window be able to behave just as if they where ordinary GUI applications? We could treat ALL applications like this, pretend they where launched from a SAMSONbasic window. This would save work but would be cheating! Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:17:00 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:11:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI In-Reply-To: <9612061701.AA23992@turner.cursci.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 794 Lines: 26 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Keith Turner wrote: ;>> On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, SL Harding wrote: ;>> ;>> ;>I re-state my vote: NO MENU BAR ON SAMSON GUI! ;>> ;>or to compromise: A moveable, re-sizeable 'front pannel' ala Solaris. ;> ;>Lee flamed: ;>> You shouldn't say Solaris as that is the Operating System you're using, ;>> NOT the window system. I presume you mean Motif or something similar as ;>> X-Windows has nothing like this ... ;> ;>No. Numb's right. ;> No he isn't. Solaris doesn't always have a front-panel, it depends on what windowing environment you're using ... I know, I'm sat here using Solaris and it don't have a front-panel ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:40:38 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612061744.RAA19332@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:44:01 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1660 Lines: 56 > ;>It is obvious that the extension should be another field, perhaps... > ;> > ;>LOAD "ob*" CODE > ;>LOAD "*" GIF > ;>RENAME "*.gif" TO "*" GIF > ;>RENAME "*.iff" IFF TO "*" CODE > ;> > ;>How bad is this for the syntax checker? > > It's bad for us, 'coz its a horrible pain in the posterior since we > shouldn't have to worry about how the DOS sees the file, we should be able > to just create, use and write files as we like without worrying about > having to convert types so the DOS knows what its doing ! > Lee. > We don't need to worry, the applications worry. They, in general create the files. Prepare yourself for another case example... You go home. (home being defined as where your SAM lives) You turn he/she/it on. You insert a disk/disc. You want to look at a particular mode 4 SAM screen on a disk/disc. You put the disk/disc in the disk/disc drive. You type '1F9' You type 'LOAD "SpacePackPyramidArtist" SCREEN$ which works as we are allowed longer filenames in this imaginary world. You load a BASIC program for no apparent reason You take the disk/disc out of the disc/disk drive You jam the disk/disc under the TV. But, in your imaginary world without filetypes you would probably have to load a art program to do this as there is no LOAD "SpacePackPyramidArtist" SCREEN$ command, and LOAD "for no apparent reason" does not work as all files are raw CODE. LOAD "SpacePackPyramidArtist.scr" does not work either as the file was created back when you had a 256K SAM. You then delete the pointless E-Mail you recieved from me. Numb. Study this until you understand why the disk/disc was stuffed under the TV. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:46:54 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:43:18 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961206124317_1885611552@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1744 Lines: 41 In a message dated 06/12/96 12:39:16, you write: >Correct me if I'm wrong but these are _programming languages_, agreed ? Yes, they were the last time I looked. > >I was arguing about examples given by Ian Collier which are DOS commands, >I never mentioned BASIC as I still feel that the two should be separate, >and I don't see any reason why the BASIC syntax can't be changed to the >new DOS versions ... But on SAM (both the existing one, the expanded one we are working towards now, and on SAMSON if it ever gets built) Basic and DOS are ONE - they are not separate items - and therefore you have to look at them as one unified syntax. As Basic is in the machine (and I think everyone would agree that it would be a big mistake to make you load Basic from disc) then it is in charge because if you are an 'average' SAM user you will spend more time running Basic lines than you will doing things that are specific to loading/saving files to disc. Now if you look at any language (and even MS-DOS is an interpreted language that controls the machine if you think about it) each has its own syntax structure. If the language is well thought out then you get 'as small a number of rules as possible' to learn because if the user needs to spend all his time with his head in the manual he will soon move on to some other (more intuitive) language. If anyone has read any of the books on compiler/interpreter design then you will understand how important the syntax rules are. > >[Snipped history lesson which I knew anyway ...] Yes, but how was I to know you knew it. I used what I considered to be a universally known term the other day (TSR) only to find someone who did not know it. > >Sorry to be so sarcastic but ... > >Lee. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:46:55 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:43:13 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961206124311_1487655968@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson filetypes Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 761 Lines: 18 In a message dated 06/12/96 12:48:41, you write: >The words "Allocated by Acorn" are the ones that I worry about. >I don't want to have to register a file type with Bob and get an upgrade >to BASIC, SamsonDOS, SamsonGUI, SamsonNet and all my other OS software >every time someone on the Internet invents a new file format. > >/ To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3084 Lines: 92 In a message dated 03/12/96 18:29:45, you write: >On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 01/12/96 15:00:08, you write: >> >> >Are you serious?? Guidelines yes, rules no. >> >> Enough people break the rules to make guidelines not worth the paper they >get >> written on. > >Not if they get completely slated for it. Just look at the PC world and you will see that even programmers working for the biggest companies just think that their programs are so special that they can bend the rules. > [cut] >a) Like I said first time around, we would insist that 'real' programs, ie >utilities and anything multitaskable, obeyed rules to the letter. I'm not even thinking of Multitasking yet, that is far too far down the road. > [cut] >> Bastard though Win95 is (spit, spit) at least it tries to keep programs in >> check. We though will not have the advantage of masses of hardware and the >> overload of Win95 to keep things in line - therefore RULES WILL HAVE TO BE >> MADE. > >Ah, so hardware incompatibilities are and advantage now, are they? No, yet again you manage to read something wrong. What the above says is that to achieve its mastery of the PC Win95 needs vast megabytes of code and quite a bit of hardware resource. We don't have that (and I hope never will or we may end up with something like Win95). > >> >And what problems? >> >> Disc access (in particular with relation to protection routines). > >If the hook codes actually work, we won't need or want to do it ourselves. I'm not aware of any problems with hook codes - please explain (send direct to avoid annoying others) > >> ROM calls (other than through the jump table). > >I hardly use the Rom at all, and the only time I have ever used an >undocumented call was when a documented equivalent simply did not exist. I >also included a message which was displayed if a previous ROM was >installed, giving a dire warning not to continue running the program. YOU may not use the ROM, which means YOU are obeying the rules - good for you. But others do. You just have to look at the programs that demand you use a particular ROM version. > >> Programs that don't check the page allocation table. > >We have already established that memory allocation doesn't matter - I AM >NOT TALKING ABOUT MULTITASKABLE PROGRAMS. Resident applications will be potitely quit first. If you care to write an operating system where memory allocation doesn't matter - good luck. > [cut] >> That will do for starters. > >Main course? Pudding anyone? > >> Ok, we cannot pass a law that will prevent a programmer 'doing his own >> thing', nor can we prevent him selling his wares to users. However, it >would >> be nice to lay down the rules and then agree that programs that stick to >them >> should have some form of recognized badge awarded. (Just an idea). > >I don't think there is anything wrong with taking over the system >(provided it is done politely) if the program is better as a result. I think Hitler springs to mind - well he did get the trains to run on time... > > >Andrew Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:59:22 1996 Subject: Re: Going down... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:31:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Dec 6, 96 10:39:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Dec6.175750+0000_gmt.46942-16085+119@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 115 Lines: 5 > Will see you all again in about a month. Have a good christmas -- the same for all you other students :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 17:59:44 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:55:19 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061755.AA24046@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re:SOS file types Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 981 Lines: 21 Numb said: > This is true, files from alien systems got using raw ftp etc. would not > conform to our file descriptions, they would simply be listed as CODE > files. A utility on the desktop to 'guess' the type of a file from its > .extension may be workable but I don't think it is for the release > machine. Guess? That's a bit of a strong word. Okay, I've got a file with the name "fish.gif". It's first five bytes are "GIF89". Where's the guesswork? In fact, the name and the first five bytes give me more confidence in it's content format than any directory entry number. If I was writing an application to read this file, I would check for the first three bytes at least, but probably do checking for valid data throughout the file. Where does the number in the directory entry help? Have you ever downloaded a GIF from a web server? Do you know how web servers recognise GIFs? Do you think they use magic numbers in directory listings? I don't think so. / Message-Id: <9612061801.AA24054@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 259 Lines: 6 > No he isn't. Solaris doesn't always have a front-panel, it depends on what > windowing environment you're using ... > > I know, I'm sat here using Solaris and it don't have a front-panel ... Okay, semantics. Can we take this argument away from the list? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 18:45:53 1996 Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:16:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199612061450.OAA18815@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 6, 96 02:50:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Dec6.184423+0000_gmt.46933-16089+82@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 197 Lines: 8 > Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the GUI > as well as independently? > Numb. > Yes, and I think I know of a way to get existing programs doing it too.. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 18:57:02 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:52:20 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612061852.AA24107@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMson filetypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1625 Lines: 35 Keith said: > >The words "Allocated by Acorn" are the ones that I worry about. > >I don't want to have to register a file type with Bob and get an upgrade > >to BASIC, SamsonDOS, SamsonGUI, SamsonNet and all my other OS software > >every time someone on the Internet invents a new file format. Bob countered: > But you would not need to get an upgrade, just authorize the install program > to add its file definition to the SRAM table. The only time you would have a > problem is if TWO different programs each wanted to use the same filetype > name - in which case it would be down to the user to allow or bar the change. > > However, it would need someone to keep a register, if only to say "sorry, > that filetype has already been used". Are you envisaging the SAMSON as a standalone machine which will never need to import files from other computer systems (e.g. the Web)? If so, the parochial file type numbering scheme is ideal. You need to bear in mind that it will will create an insular system. If you expect the SAM to be able to handle files from other machines or the network, you will end up implementing a file-type called "DOS", a file-type called "Mac", a file type called "Web", and you will have to find some extra space to store the DOS suffix, the Mac XXXX/XXXX filetype or the web "foo/bar" MIME type. Turning those files into SAM native files will involve some sort of file migration utility, which will probably have a configuration file similar to the "MAGIC.OS" file. So as far as I can see, you have an insular system, or you have something like "MAGIC.OS". Am I missing something? / Message-Id: <9612061854.AA24110@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 185 Lines: 6 > Yes, and I think I know of a way to get existing programs doing it too.. Cool! Well, don't tell this list about it, otherwise people will argue pointlessly about your idea. / To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re:SOS file types In-Reply-To: <199612061642.QAA19066@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1039 Lines: 27 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: [Snipped] > Keith> The words "Allocated by Acorn" are the ones that I worry about. [More Snipped] > > What actually happens is that when your system sees a new application, > > that application tells the system - my files look like this, and if the > > user is silly enough to double click on one of them, this is what you > > do. > > This is the proplem you see, we need to have the 4 letter file descriptors > (in the directory entry, not the file name) dished out by a single > organisation. If 2 applications use the same 4 letters then each time you > load the other one it would alter your fuller description of that type! Please read what you are replying to. The original post explained how the Archimedes file-typing worked, and how Acorn controlled the allocation of file-types. Keith questioned how this would work in practice, with new file-types constantly being generated. I replied explaining how that system would work. Now re-read what you have written above. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 20:12:49 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:11:00 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961206151057_2016908230@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 735 Lines: 23 In a message dated 06/12/96 14:59:19, you write: >> > Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the >GUI >> > as well as independently? >> > Numb. >> >> But of course. We also want to run Basic GUI Applications. > >I'm beginning to feel sorry for the GUI/SAMBasic writers.... > > How about no, you can't run a SAMSON Basic prog under the GUI (if one ever gets agreed upon) BUT, you can run a compiled program writen in SAMSON Basic under the GUI. Now that would solve two problems. 1) the Basic interpreter would not have to exist in several memory segments at once to run different programs. and 2) the spped would be higher so the overheads of the GUI would not detract from the program too much. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 20:12:50 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:10:55 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961206151053_1685142342@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMson GUI (Yay!) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 211 Lines: 10 In a message dated 06/12/96 14:35:20, you write: >Once we've got a hardware clock it'd be no problem .. > >Lee. Quite agree, it could be added to the keyboard scan - but don't you have a watch? (grin) Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 20:12:58 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:10:59 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961206151059_674054471@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 295 Lines: 11 In a message dated 06/12/96 16:05:34, you write: >We obviously need a 'GUI' command to kill BASIC and go into the GUI >environment. > > No need to kill basic, if you enter a machine code program from basic there is no overhead - provided we have a flag that turns of the Basic keyscan. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 20:12:58 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:11:03 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961206151103_1186502343@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 819 Lines: 20 In a message dated 06/12/96 16:37:50, you write: >Ages ago I suggested that the list asseses requests for new file types, >giving the owner of the DOS a vito. -read you posts before you delete >them! > > This is not a bad idea. Like newsgroups on the internet there could even be a vote to allow/disallow a filetype. However, someone will need to keep the register and it would be necessary to allow someone to 'reserve' a filetype for a set period while software was developed. I think it should also be a factor that, for machine code programs at least, anyone wanting to develop a new filetype should provide READ filters so that other applications can at least read files that are produced. WRITE filters may also be a good idea but someone may feel that giving away both would make his software useless. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 6 20:18:37 1996 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 20:14:04 GMT From: Keith Turner Message-Id: <9612062014.AA24181@turner.cursci.co.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: My vision of the SAMSON - parting shot Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3458 Lines: 72 Recipe: How to make a SAMSON ==================== First, take one SAM. Add an SRAM card which supports 512K, 1M and 2M SRAM chips. Change the SAM ROM chip, replacing it with a chip which boots from a diskette image on the SRAM as if it were a bootable diskette. Use a hardware switch on the SRAM card to change the SRAM's behaviour from that of a read-only floppy to that of a writable floppy. Fill the rest of the ROM with compatibility routines (for RST #10, etc.) and a Z80 monitor/debugger plus the associated fonts and screen driver code, with hooks for other low-level software to use these features. Write a simple DOS with support for SAMDOS and MasterDOS disks, and hooks to add other hardware and disk formats. Try to construct the DOS to encourage device access through file-handling primitives, open, read, write close etc. Provide screen device drivers which support simple rectangular windows with relative pixel addressing and minimal font handling/blitting. Provide keyboard handling routines which will poll the state of a set of keys, or allow character by character typing with support for shift keys and key-repeat. Provide tape and speaker drivers. These drivers should not attempt to achieve high-level functionality like backups or MIDI, just open, read, write, close. Include version numbers for each driver, so that coding wizards can choose whether or not to use their own souped-up code based on the version number of the driver. Add a CONFIG.SYS-style start-up file which can be used to set driver preferences and load the preferred user interface. Write a SAM Basic interpreter which supports the old ROM Sam BASIC language but implements accesses to the hardware through the DOS level drivers. Only document OPEN #, and CLOSE # style access to hardware. This allows support for new devices to be used in BASIC as soon as it is added to the underlying DOS. Write a SAM C library to the file I/O in the DOS, including the device I/O through the same file-handling primitives. Add a serial port card to the SAM, supporting fast full-duplex hardware flow control serial connections to modems and other computers. Write a driver to be added to the DOS which treats the modem as a file which can be read and written to, only with a NOP for the "seek" function. Add a display adaptor card to the SAM, supporting SVGA screen resolutions. Write a driver to be added to the DOS which implements the same windows and blitting as the original screen driver, but adds optimized sprite and font handling. Write a GUI for the SAM, using the window support in the screen drivers. Define a protocol by which GUI applications, SAMSON BASIC and other programs can share multimedia information in a common format. Use the protocol to enable cut-n-paste, drag-n-drop, export-n-import between applications. Add a hard disk adaptor card, drivers as before. Add a real-time clock and drivers as before. Drivers use file-handling primitives throughout. Write an HTTP+FTP+SMTP+POP+TELNET/TCP+UDP/IP/PPP stack for the SAM, a modular web browser, comprising transport modules for HTTP+FTP+SMTP+POP+TELNET and interoperable viewers for HTML, GIF, JPEG etc. Repackage it all in a neat box, with commodity hardware like cheap PC keyboards and IDE disk drives. Sell like hot cakes. Any responses to this recipe should be sent direct to me, as I will be unsubscribing from the list very soon. It was fun while it lasted. / From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Going down... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 23:50:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96Dec6.175750+0000_gmt.46942-16085+119@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Dec 6, 96 04:31:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Lines: 7 > > Will see you all again in about a month. > Have a good christmas -- the same for all you other students :) > Beg Pardon?!!! Some of us students have got two weeks of exams before we swan off home!! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 7 16:11:15 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:09:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam users Subject: Re: SOS file types In-Reply-To: <199612061744.RAA19332@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1484 Lines: 50 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: ;>> Lee wrote : ;>> ;>> It's bad for us, 'coz its a horrible pain in the posterior since we ;>> shouldn't have to worry about how the DOS sees the file, we should be able ;>> to just create, use and write files as we like without worrying about ;>> having to convert types so the DOS knows what its doing ! ;>> Lee. ;>> ;>We don't need to worry, the applications worry. ;>They, in general create the files. ;> ;>Prepare yourself for another case example... ;> ;>You go home. (home being defined as where your SAM lives) ;>You turn he/she/it on. ;>You insert a disk/disc. ;>You want to look at a particular mode 4 SAM screen on a disk/disc. ;>You put the disk/disc in the disk/disc drive. ;>You type '1F9' ;>You type 'LOAD "SpacePackPyramidArtist" SCREEN$ which works as we are ;> allowed longer filenames in this imaginary world. ;>You load a BASIC program for no apparent reason ;>You take the disk/disc out of the disc/disk drive ;>You jam the disk/disc under the TV. ;> ;> ;>But, in your imaginary world without filetypes you would probably have to ;>load a art program to do this as there is no ;> Yep, that's the way it should work IMHO ... ;> ;>Study this until you understand why the disk/disc was stuffed under the ;>TV. ;> I'm lost, go on enlighten me ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 7 16:14:34 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:13:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMson GUI (Yay!) In-Reply-To: <961206151053_1685142342@emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 447 Lines: 21 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: ;>In a message dated 06/12/96 14:35:20, you write: ;> ;>>Once we've got a hardware clock it'd be no problem .. ;>> ;>>Lee. ;> ;>Quite agree, it could be added to the keyboard scan - but don't you have a ;>watch? (grin) ;> Erm, no actually ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 7 18:47:38 1996 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 18:46:02 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <961206124317_1885611552@emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1919 Lines: 38 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > But on SAM (both the existing one, the expanded one we are working towards > now, and on SAMSON if it ever gets built) Basic and DOS are ONE - they are > not separate items - and therefore you have to look at them as one unified > syntax. As Basic is in the machine (and I think everyone would agree that it > would be a big mistake to make you load Basic from disc) then it is in charge > because if you are an 'average' SAM user you will spend more time running > Basic lines than you will doing things that are specific to loading/saving > files to disc. This echos back to something I said a while ago; just because, as far as the user is aware, DOS = BASIC = DOS; it doesn't mean that, internally, the picture might not be very different indeed. Look at the Sam now, the DOS is a totally seperate piece of code, which does various convoluted handshaking procedures with the ROM. However, the user wouldn't know that. For the SamSon OS, there will probably be a number of different coders coding different bits. To organize the whole thing into one piece of code would be difficult (not impossible though). However, the handshaking doesn't need to be so obtuse, and it is still possible for the user to view the two systems as one. What a seperate organization would also mean is that application programs could independantly call the Dos functions, without going through all the rituals which the Rom requires. Bob, Re Bugs in DOS hook codes: Generally, they don't work. If you haven't heard of any problems then you haven't been reading this list for the past few days. Or maybe you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of it. Either way, try actually DOING something in code with the SamDOS hook codes (SamDOS rather than MasterDOS because you'll want everybody to be able to use it), with particular concern to loading files and error trapping. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 7 19:39:49 1996 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:38:20 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <961206124320_607334377@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5900 Lines: 120 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >a) Like I said first time around, we would insist that 'real' programs, ie > >utilities and anything multitaskable, obeyed rules to the letter. > > I'm not even thinking of Multitasking yet, that is far too far down the road. Well, you seemed concerned that one application would be scribbling over the areas of memory owned by another. That probably means they both have to be in memory at once, and that sounds like multitasking to me. Having programs running simultaneously is something to be thinking about when we write the GUI. Writing the GUI is something to be thinking about when we write the OS. Writing the OS is something to be thinking about until we get the hardware. Hardware is something a few people are already thinking about. > >> Bastard though Win95 is (spit, spit) at least it tries to keep programs in > >> check. We though will not have the advantage of masses of hardware and the > >> overload of Win95 to keep things in line - therefore RULES WILL HAVE TO BE > >> MADE. > > > >Ah, so hardware incompatibilities are and advantage now, are they? > > No, yet again you manage to read something wrong. > What the above says is that to achieve its mastery of the PC Win95 needs vast > megabytes of code and quite a bit of hardware resource. We don't have that > (and I hope never will or we may end up with something like Win95). That may be what the above was intended to mean, but the words 'advantage of masses of hardware and the overload of WIN95 to keep things in line' sounds like the masses of hardware etc is an advantage. If that isn't what you meant then fine, but that is what you said. Having said all that, I agree that it should be possible to create a Windowing system which doesn't take so much memory as Win95 does, and possibly is even a nicer environment to work in. > YOU may not use the ROM, which means YOU are obeying the rules - good for > you. But others do. You just have to look at the programs that demand you use > a particular ROM version. The only ones I've been able to remember were Football Director 2 and MNEMOcompress. I usually don't use the Rom because I can normally code a faster routine, at the expense of being larger or less general - in most cases speed is absolutely the most important factor (note that this will be less true on a faster processor, but nontheless an important consideration.) The one time I have needed to use the ROM was in extending the BASIC for MNEMOcompress, I could theoretically have used documented routines but it was far, far easier to do it 'unofficially' - but I was nice enough to warn users with incompatible ROMs. The moral of this story? If you're going to restrict programmers with rules and guidelines, make sure that it is no imposition to do things properly. > >> Programs that don't check the page allocation table. > > > >We have already established that memory allocation doesn't matter - I AM > >NOT TALKING ABOUT MULTITASKABLE PROGRAMS. Resident applications will be > potitely quit first. > > If you care to write an operating system where memory allocation doesn't > matter - good luck. No, yet again you manage to read something wrong. I didn't say that memory allocation doesn't matter at any point in the entire operating system, I was talking about one particular non-multitasking program which requires full system resources, and saying that provision should be made such that it is allowed to grab whatever memory it needs without causing problems for other programs. That is to say, the other programs already in memory are quit properly, and their files saved. The OS then does whatever housekeeping it needs to do, and hands over full control to this specific program. While the program runs, the OS is dormant. The the program has finished, it hands control back to the OS. The only code which needs to be included in the OS to handle this would be a 'quit all applications' call (probably necessary anyway, people will want to turn the computer off occassionally) and an 'wake OS' call, which may or may not be the same as starting up. As I have also said before, this method would only be used for very intensive programs like demos or arcade games. No-one in their right mind would be trying to use this system for a program such as Samson SWORD or internet browsers. If you wish to continue discussing my interpretation of memory allocation, please paraphrase the previous two paragraphs so that I am sure you have read and understood my argument, since at the moment I am not. > >I don't think there is anything wrong with taking over the system > >(provided it is done politely) if the program is better as a result. > > I think Hitler springs to mind - well he did get the trains to run on time... Hitler was so polite, wasn't he? Hitler would be an application which scribbled over memory no-matter who was using it, WITHOUT making sure that the other programs no longer needed it. My program would very nicely start asking the west if they wouldn't ever-so-much mind voting nazi. Okay, so they might say no. And then you program doesn't run. So the user saves all his files, and perhaps next time they'll agree. Put it this way, you can have SUPERDUPERARCADEGAME(TM) running in a pointlessly resizable window, doing all screen operations by proxy, taking keyboard input only when you're pointing to the right window, and generally struggling to work at any decent sort of speed; or you can have SUPERDUPERARCADEGAME(TM) with a screen layout exactly how the programmer wants it, writing directly to the screen, using lots and lots of the available CPU time which has been freed by removing the pointless handshaking to the OS, running smoothly at full speed no matter what it going on, and being reviewed by all the magazines as 'worth buying a SamSON for'. Which would you rather? Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 7 19:43:58 1996 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:43:00 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 231 Lines: 11 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Justin Skists wrote: > > I'm beginning to feel sorry for the GUI/SAMBasic writers.... > I know exactly what you mean. You can't please any of the people for even a little of the time, or something. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 7 19:45:27 1996 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:44:40 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAMson GUI (Yay!) In-Reply-To: <3957A6709E9@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 363 Lines: 12 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, James R Curry wrote: > Okay, just a quick point. The ONE.. and believe me it's the only > ONE... The ONE feauture of Windows '95 that I like is the fact that > there's always an ON SCREEN CLOCK in the status bar at the bottom > right.. Could we have one of these in the SAMson GUI? Or in a window. Yeah, that's no problem. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 7 22:43:44 1996 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:42:44 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961207174242_1423501627@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2072 Lines: 45 In a message dated 07/12/96 18:50:00, you write: >For the SamSon OS, there will probably be a number of different coders >coding different bits. To organize the whole thing into one piece of code >would be difficult (not impossible though). However, the handshaking >doesn't need to be so obtuse. Too bloody true. This is the main reason (I feel) that the system need to be rehashed once it is in SRAM. Get rid of Hook Codes (in the sence that you need RST 8 anyway). >and it is still possible for the user to >view the two systems as one. > >What a seperate organization would also mean is that application programs >could independantly call the Dos functions, without going through all the >rituals which the Rom requires. True, although it would not be separate, it would be written to allow easier access from the outside world. But then lots of the Basic system could also be used. And there is no reason that some routines designed for other languages could not be in the SRAM as well. I don't agree with the idea of putting a full assembler/debug system in the main SRAM - but if there is enough SRAM then there is no reason why someone should not load one. > >Bob, Re Bugs in DOS hook codes: Generally, they don't work. If you haven't >heard of any problems then you haven't been reading this list for the past >few days. Or maybe you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of it. >Either way, try actually DOING something in code with the SamDOS hook >codes (SamDOS rather than MasterDOS because you'll want everybody to be >able to use it), with particular concern to loading files and error >trapping. No, what I ment was that until a few days ago - with the messages on this list - I had not heard of problems. But then I had assumed until now that most people who were serious about their SAM already had MasterDOS. There is certainly enough on disc mags like FRED and SAM Sup that only works with MasterDOS that I jusr assumed. So, who on this list is not using MasterDOS? Own up and I may just be able to make you a special offer. > > >Andrew Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 7 23:09:01 1996 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:07:59 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS In-Reply-To: <961207174242_1423501627@emout01.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1185 Lines: 27 On Sat, 7 Dec 1996 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > No, what I ment was that until a few days ago - with the messages on this > list - I had not heard of problems. But then I had assumed until now that > most people who were serious about their SAM already had MasterDOS. There is > certainly enough on disc mags like FRED and SAM Sup that only works with > MasterDOS that I jusr assumed. Ah well, when I say 'hook codes' I'm using DOS from machine code, as opposed to from BASIC like most users will be. I can only assume that SamDOS works mostly internally, because from Basic it doesn't throw up these problems. As for assuming people use MasterDos, I guess most do but probably not all. I guess most people have 512K, but that isn't 100 per cent yet. I would have guessed that everybody had a dis? drive, but as I discovered from someone at the Weatherby show.... As for detailed descriptions of the bugs, there are some people out there more qualified than me to talk about them; all I know is that the ones I tried to use in SamMines didn't ever work properly (despite following the hideous entry conditions). It was actually much easier to write my own DOS routines. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 8 15:13:13 1996 Message-Id: <199612081511.QAA18174@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: Sam users Subject: Test Ignore Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 16:11:08 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 156 Lines: 5 Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 8 15:28:27 1996 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 10:27:23 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961208102722_1253820775@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1417 Lines: 36 In a message dated 07/12/96 23:09:20, you write: >Ah well, when I say 'hook codes' I'm using DOS from machine code, as >opposed to from BASIC like most users will be. I can only assume that >SamDOS works mostly internally, because from Basic it doesn't throw up >these problems. > >As for assuming people use MasterDos, I guess most do but probably not >all. I guess most people have 512K, but that isn't 100 per cent yet. I >would have guessed that everybody had a dis? drive, but as I discovered >from someone at the Weatherby show.... I think it is safe to say that those without disc drives are now only a handful, and unlikely to be doing anything with their machines. I have had a couple over the last year who have purchased machines at car boot sales that came without drives, but they tend to be very old machines - most still with ROM 1. As to 512K, well there are still a handful of sales a year of the 256K upgrade, so there must by the law of averages still be a few - but they can't be serious about their machines because they cant run any of the latest software. > >As for detailed descriptions of the bugs, there are some people out there >more qualified than me to talk about them; all I know is that the ones I >tried to use in SamMines didn't ever work properly (despite following the >hideous entry conditions). It was actually much easier to write my own DOS >routines. > > >Andrew > > From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 8 22:12:20 1996 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 22:11:26 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam-users Subject: Momentum Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 303 Lines: 13 Sunday 8 December I have just finished mapping and completed FRED's game Momentum. The end game message is "Congratulations, You have defeated the despicable egg monster and saved mankind. Now get to bed" The maps will appear in serialised form over the next few issues of Zodiac magazine. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 8 22:32:39 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612082230.WAA07080@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 22:30:43 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3542 Lines: 72 >Numb said: >> This is true, files from alien systems got using raw ftp etc. would not >> conform to our file descriptions, they would simply be listed as CODE >> files. A utility on the desktop to 'guess' the type of a file from its >> .extension may be workable but I don't think it is for the release >> machine. > > Guess? That's a bit of a strong word. > Okay, I've got a file with the name "fish.gif". It's first five bytes > are "GIF89". Where's the guesswork? In fact, the name and the first > five bytes give me more confidence in it's content format than any > directory entry number. If I was writing an application to read this > file, I would check for the first three bytes at least, but probably do > checking for valid data throughout the file. Yes, I agree about the ease of the ftp program IDing a GIF from an alien environment. In some cases, such as the over used example of GIFs, the job would be very easy, the GUI ftp program could automatically call the 'alien type identifier' and this would very easily spot this extension and first bytes and use these to set the SAMSONfiletype (this must, of course be a dis-able-able feature). Other file types, new or strange ones such as '.ncad' (as I also used in the same posting) and thoes with no extension or title in the file itself WOULD have to be GUESSED though. The program could be programmed to suggest that types with the letters C.A.D. in them are of the CAD file type but the 'alien converter' should still give the user the choice of any exsisting file type including the possiblility to just give it type 'CODE'. >Where does the number in the directory entry help? Not a number, see later. It would be more informative to the user than if it did not exsist. If you get a directory of a disc and see that all of the files are of type SCREEN$, this tells you a fair bit more about them that a directory of CODE files. Even if we have a sytem giving a fuller description based on the .extension it would be informative to the user. But that would mean that all of your current SCREEN$ files on your curent SAM would have to have the same .extension e.g. .scr , this would place an unneccessary burden on the user and FLASH would have to always potitely ask you to add a .scr extension to your file names or meanly put it there itself. I personaly think that a fileNAME should provide a NAME for your file, my NAME does not point out that I am a white human male. The user being defined as an application program, the GUI, the CLI or a human. >Have you ever downloaded a GIF from a web server? Do you know how web >servers recognise GIFs? Do you think they use magic numbers in directory >listings? I don't think so. > >/ Message-Id: <199612082237.WAA07088@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS file types (quote out of context) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 22:37:21 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 461 Lines: 13 >> This is the proplem you see, we need to have the 4 letter file >> descriptors (in the directory entry, not the file name) dished out by a >> single organisation. If 2 applications use the same 4 letters then each time >> you load the other one it would alter your fuller description of that type! > >Please read what you are replying to. [snip] >Tim W. Yes, quite correct, I accidently took a quote out of context. It is still a valid fear though. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 8 23:02:16 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612082300.XAA07170@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS GUI/CLI swapping To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 23:00:17 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1231 Lines: 31 >> We obviously need a 'GUI' command to kill BASIC and go into the GUI >> environment. >> > No need to kill basic, if you enter a machine code program from basic > there is no overhead - provided we have a flag that turns of the Basic > keyscan. > Bob. > Only memory!!! Why kill the keyscan? We would need a number of 'all environments' interupts, CLI only interupts, a number of GUI only interupts and we may want space for GUI application interupts. Keyscan would be an 'all environments' interupt. REAL programs COULD kill ALL interupts and create their own though! A REAL program must ensure the 'pannic button' works though, each pressing of the pannic button should exit the current enviroment, i.e. game->sub menu->main menu->GUI/CLI depending on what it was launced from. We don't want silly circular situations as in many PC games where pressing Escape takes you around in circles e.g. Formula 1 Grand Prix, if you press escape on the 'are you certain you want to quit' menu it takes you back to the main menu! Sillyness. It would be simple to ensure this is the case, make it easier to leave the pannic button borking than to disable it! Do we want an EXCape pannic button or a harware NMI (like?) one? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 8 23:30:17 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612082328.XAA07276@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 23:28:40 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1974 Lines: 48 >> > Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of >> > the GUI as well as independently? >> > Numb. >> > > How about no, you can't run a SAMSON Basic prog under the GUI (if one > ever gets agreed upon) BUT, you can run a compiled program writen in SAMSON > Basic under the GUI. > > Now that would solve two problems. 1) the Basic interpreter would not > have to exist in several memory segments at once to run different programs. > and 2) the speed would be higher so the overheads of the GUI would not > detract from the program too much. > > Bob. > There never was a compiler for the SAM was there? I remember asking around once to find out. I was told that no one would ever bother as it could never make the programs run more than twice normal speed anyway as the ROM is was written so well. The person who told me this had obviously never tried to use the PUT or GRAB commands in SAMbasic! But in gerneral I cannot say if this is the case or not. How about providing a just in time compiler to live on the GUI (in addition to a compiler in the CLI?), that would make life much simpler to the novice user. The GUI could be designed to work with applications that multi-job in EITHER of the modes I outlined: 1) ones that load multiple versions of themselves; 2) thoes that load one version of themselves and just work on different sets of data. The BASIC CLI would fall into this 2nd group, i.e. only one version of the interpreter, a number of versions of the SVARS and the different programs. If we make the GUI and SAMSONbasic memory models similar enough then there would not be that much trouble with having a GUI based CLI. The only time overhead would be that used by the other applications, the time allocations should be easily changed by the user anyway. WHEN the 'card is finished there should be NO change in speed between updating a CLI taking up the whole screen and one taking up ANY size of window. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 00:37:53 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612090036.AAA07411@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS levels To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 00:36:07 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4732 Lines: 106 >This echos back to something I said a while ago; just because, as far as >the user is aware, DOS = BASIC = DOS; it doesn't mean that, internally, >the picture might not be very different indeed. Look at the Sam now, the >DOS is a totally seperate piece of code, which does various convoluted >handshaking procedures with the ROM. However, the user wouldn't know >that. > >For the SamSon OS, there will probably be a number of different coders >coding different bits. To organize the whole thing into one piece of code >would be difficult (not impossible though). However, the handshaking >doesn't need to be so obtuse, and it is still possible for the user to >view the two systems as one. > >What a seperate organization would also mean is that application programs >could independantly call the Dos functions, without going through all the >rituals which the Rom requires. Hear Hear! Internaly it makes most sense to go for... 1, BIOS 2, DOS / NOS / TOS / User Drivers 3, CLIbasic / GUI / Standalone M_Code 4, GUI applications if applicable We just need great hook codes at level 2 (?OS) Internaly level 2 and 3 are different, but as far as the high level user is concerned they are the same. All the BASIC command LOAD "jnri" CODE need do is call the level 2 hook code, pointing to the address the file name is temporaraly stored at, stating that the files old address and length should be used. It could simply return the error message code if it failed. That way the GUI, GUI applications and REAL programs can just as easily call the same routine. > I agree that it should be possible to create a Windowing system which > doesn't take so much memory as Win95 does, and possibly is even a nicer > environment to work in. Should be possible? We need to sound more sure of ourselfs than that! ;o) We can create a GUI that takes up a tiny fraction of the memory win95 does, and be a much much nicer environment to work and play in! >> YOU may not use the ROM, which means YOU are obeying the rules - good >> for you. But others do. You just have to look at the programs that demand >> you use a particular ROM version. With user re-writable ROM any person who writes an applcation that uses an undocumented entry point will not fail to have his software incompatable with someones system! We are no longer talking about old SAM software problems here, sod any old software by people who are too cunnining for their own good! It will be much easyer to use the correct hook codes than be versute anyway. We will chose great hook codes at just the right level. The old ones need to be forgotten about, having to go into SAMbasic to load a file and having SAMbasic muck up your palette is too annoying. REAL programs should not need to worry about what the CLI or GUI wants where. MAIN_POINT_________________________________________________________ Easyer and qucker development, faster and shorter code if you do it correctly -> people will do it correctly! ___________________________________________________________________ > As I have also said before, this method would only be used for very > intensive programs like demos or arcade games. No-one in their right > mind would be trying to use this system for a program such as Samson > SWORD or internet browsers. Right on. I have been stressing the same point, I extensively use the term 'REAL programs' to refer to our superfast system-abusing games. > Ah well, when I say 'hook codes' I'm using DOS from machine code, as > opposed to from BASIC like most users will be. I can only assume that > SamDOS works mostly internally, because from Basic it doesn't throw up > these problems. Yes, and as you say, I don't like these RST ?? sort of hook codes, the use of vector tables would be a much nicer way of entering the DOS. You call a known location with all of your registers holding the relevent information, at that location there is a JP * or perhaps a JR * to send you to the routine as it is located on your system. The RET at the end of this routine takes control back to your program to assess the error code if there is one. It would be nice, (and probably faster) if you could pass the location to jump to if there is an error into the DOS instead. > As for assuming people use MasterDos, I guess most do but probably not > all. I guess most people have 512K, but that isn't 100 per cent yet. I > would have guessed that everybody had a dis? drive, but as I discovered > from someone at the Weatherby show. No, no MasterDos; Yes, 512K; Yes, 1 only style SAM disc drive. A good pal from home (went home from cambridge uni. yesterday!) only has 256K though (thus explaining why SAMfigher is 256K friendly!). Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 08:41:41 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209084212.008fa0f4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 08:42:12 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS unwritten LOAD botch Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 397 Lines: 14 At 14:42 06/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Status: RO > >On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Keith Turner wrote: > >> Great idea - one for the Samson BASIC interpreter developers to think about. >> (Was it Ian Collier who asked for modular BASIC files making up a BASIC >> package? That functionality could be used to achieve this. Line numbers >> would be a sticking point.) Possibly both him and myself... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 08:45:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209084653.008fc250@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 08:46:53 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 520 Lines: 12 At 15:49 06/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >It would be nice to have a KILL GUI command to kill the GUI from around BASIC >and leaving you as a raw CLI still running the same program! The way you must >type EXIT then press ALT4 500000 times before you get to a raw CLI from windows >is VERY annoying too! Not totally unfeasible, except that the memory management model used for the GUI must be used globally. I've got ideas of how to patch the BASIC into the GUI transparently, so this might be a way of doing that... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:23:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092405.009161e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:24:05 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 472 Lines: 16 At 17:44 06/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >But, in your imaginary world without filetypes you would probably have to >load a art program to do this as there is no > >LOAD "SpacePackPyramidArtist" SCREEN$ command, and >LOAD "for no apparent reason" does not work as all files are raw CODE. But are recognised as BASIC programs from the "BAST" file type (bit unfortunate that one, but it stands for "BASic Type" -- which also handles SCREEN$ files. Thus they do work. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:23:31 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092355.008f55e8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:23:55 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 278 Lines: 11 At 18:54 06/12/96 GMT, you wrote: >Status: O > >> Yes, and I think I know of a way to get existing programs doing it too.. > >Cool! Well, don't tell this list about it, otherwise people will argue >pointlessly about your idea. *grins* yerknow, I thought they might... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:23:48 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092356.008e4a24@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:23:56 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 502 Lines: 20 At 14:56 06/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >> > Do we realy want to be able to run a SAMSON BASIC window on top of the GUI >> > as well as independently? >> > Numb. >> >> But of course. We also want to run Basic GUI Applications. > >I'm beginning to feel sorry for the GUI/SAMBasic writers.... Why? :) If done correctly, the system will be neatly cohesive, and it'll be a breeze to do. If done wrongly, it'll be a pain in the ass. We've just got to make sure we do it correctly this time around. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:24:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092357.008f31f4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:23:57 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 705 Lines: 18 At 15:11 06/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >How about no, you can't run a SAMSON Basic prog under the GUI (if one ever >gets agreed upon) BUT, you can run a compiled program writen in SAMSON Basic >under the GUI. > >Now that would solve two problems. 1) the Basic interpreter would not have to >exist in several memory segments at once to run different programs. and 2) >the spped would be higher so the overheads of the GUI would not detract from >the program too much. Possible. The compiler part is the tricky one. However, I think it's possible to write a SAM BASIC program using the GUI, which /doesn't/ have a massive overhead -- you do the most of the processing beforehand at the GUI OS level. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:24:30 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092358.008f37b8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:23:58 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 281 Lines: 9 At 15:10 06/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >No need to kill basic, if you enter a machine code program from basic there >is no overhead - provided we have a flag that turns of the Basic keyscan. Even then, correctly rewritten, the BASIC keyscan system could be used system-wide. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:24:32 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092359.008e5634@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:23:59 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 593 Lines: 14 At 15:11 06/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >I think it should also be a factor that, for machine code programs at least, >anyone wanting to develop a new filetype should provide READ filters so that >other applications can at least read files that are produced. WRITE filters >may also be a good idea but someone may feel that giving away both would make >his software useless. > Yep... READ filters would be a very good idea -- very windows in fact ;) (ie portability of file formats - which is /not/ a bad thing). The guidelines for which, though, would have to be laid down in advance... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:24:40 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092401.0090593c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:24:01 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: DI in ISRs... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 532 Lines: 27 At 10:57 06/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >0038h ld hl, (im1_v) > jp (hl) >im1_v .dw 0100h > >0100h push af > in a, (249) > >(something like that, anyway) As a rule, for time-critical applications (such as MIDI, line interrupts, etc), it's best to go for something more like: &0038: PUSH AF IN A,(249) BIT n,A ; whatever midi is JP Z,address_of_your_routine POP AF EI RET address_of_your_routine: ... whatever... POP AF EI RET From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:24:40 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092402.00903954@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:24:02 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SAMson filetypes Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 504 Lines: 16 At 14:02 06/12/96 GMT, you wrote: >Okay. Apple are in charge of the registry of XXXX/XXXX MacOS file types. >The IANA are in charge of Internet/Web/MIME file types, (text/html, >application/framemaker, etc.) I'm willing to go for it :) In the SAM community for a while now, a few people have been coming to me to allocate hardware IO port numbers... Speaking of which, Nev -- what's the IO situation on the harddrive interface? >Does anyone here know what I mean by interoperability? Yep :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 09:24:40 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961209092403.0091b690@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:24:03 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re:SOS file types Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1239 Lines: 45 At 16:42 06/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >Lee> Just ignore types, it's a lot easier. > >Easyier for us, not the user. >We have special types on the SAM, it is a great idea, so why not >extend it to its logical conclusion? >Why abolish one of our handyest, descriptive feratures? Descriptive, yes, handy, no. >Simon> DIR "*.gif" >Simon> >Simon> would do the job quite happily, thangyewverymuch. >Simon> >Simon> The .GIF extension is now quite firmly fixed for GIF images, and is >Simon> used independently of the underlying filesystem by everything from >Simon> web browsers to graphics handling software. >Simon> >True, but SAMSON specific filetypes are a BONUS. AS I've said in the past, if you want to write the software to handle every single special case, be my guest. >Can someone please suggest a better syntax than this stupid idea of mine! >It is obvious that the extension should be another field, perhaps... > >LOAD "ob*" CODE >LOAD "*" GIF >RENAME "*.gif" TO "*" GIF >RENAME "*.iff" IFF TO "*" CODE Yes. Here it is: LOAD "file-typer" then type the filename then select "alter type" then choose the new type from a list then select "confirm changes and write to disk" confirm them, and exit the program. That do you? Simon From imc Mon Dec 9 11:51:55 1996 Subject: Re: Soon goin' home.. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 11:51:55 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 239 Lines: 8 On Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:32:07 +0000 (GMT), you said: > I had time to look at the sam-users archives from when I'd been > offline. And, lo and behold, what do I find but 403 Forbidden. OOOOOOoooooooooops. Try again now. :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 15:44:20 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:31:23 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Momentum Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3DE8C435F7E@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 621 Lines: 20 > I have just finished mapping and completed FRED's game Momentum. > > The end game message is "Congratulations, You have defeated the despicable > egg monster and saved mankind. Now get to bed" > > The maps will appear in serialised form over the next few issues of Zodiac > magazine. Graham Goring will be very pleased.. You see, after he sent the levels back, Graham Burtenshaw changed some of the gravity/speed/inertia values, and Graham G was worried that the game may not now be possible. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk X X X XXX Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! X Urgh. I feel ill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 16:47:17 1996 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 11:44:15 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961209113201_1886059575@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1801 Lines: 46 In a message dated 08/12/96 23:30:42, you write: >There never was a compiler for the SAM was there? >I remember asking around once to find out. >I was told that no one would ever bother as it could never make the >programs run more than twice normal speed anyway as the ROM is was written >so well. True, but we will have a different situation here. Twice as fast would not have been worth the effort as things stand, but if running under a GUI then you need even 'a little speed incress' to counter the overhead of the GUI. >The person who told me this had obviously never tried to use the PUT or >GRAB commands in SAMbasic! But in gerneral I cannot say if this is the >case or not. > >How about providing a just in time compiler to live on the GUI (in >addition to a compiler in the CLI?), that would make life much simpler to >the novice user. What do you mean by a 'just in time compiler'? > > >The GUI could be designed to work with applications that multi-job in >EITHER of the modes I outlined: > 1) ones that load multiple versions of themselves; > 2) thoes that load one version of themselves and just work on > different sets of data. > >The BASIC CLI would fall into this 2nd group, i.e. only one version of the >interpreter, a number of versions of the SVARS and the different programs. > > >If we make the GUI and SAMSONbasic memory models similar enough then there >would not be that much trouble with having a GUI based CLI. The CLI is the Basic - dont forget that... > >The only time overhead would be that used by the other applications, the >time allocations should be easily changed by the user anyway. WHEN the >'card is finished there should be NO change in speed between updating a >CLI taking up the whole screen and one taking up ANY size of window. > >Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 18:31:19 1996 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 18:29:14 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Momentum In-Reply-To: <3DE8C435F7E@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 856 Lines: 21 On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, James R Curry wrote: > Graham Goring will be very pleased.. You see, after he sent the > levels back, Graham Burtenshaw changed some of the > gravity/speed/inertia values, and Graham G was worried that the game > may not now be possible. Nah, none of it was very hard to be honest. It just takes a bit of time to draw out the screens on paper in isometric 3D - just playing the game you can usually ignore some of the blocks, but making a map you have to understand *exactly* what is going on for any particular screen. I've tried to make the maps as clear as possible, which also means helping to interpret things if the screen gets jumbled. Not to mention the times when you can't even see the blocks, or when the screen is actually lying.... (adding ceiling tiles to hide holes in the floor is a very mean trick!) Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 18:57:51 1996 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 18:56:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Momentum In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 412 Lines: 11 On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, A.S. Collier wrote: > Not to mention the times when you can't even see the blocks, or when the > screen is actually lying.... (adding ceiling tiles to hide holes in the > floor is a very mean trick!) Mmm. A good game, but because of things like the above (and the inability to change character), I think it is not quite as good as Spindizzy. Doesn't stop me playing it though :) Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 9 23:48:42 1996 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 20:58:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <961209113201_1886059575@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 9, 96 11:44:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Dec9.234742+0000_gmt.46930-1277+69@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 645 Lines: 15 > >How about providing a just in time compiler to live on the GUI (in > >addition to a compiler in the CLI?), that would make life much simpler to > >the novice user. > > What do you mean by a 'just in time compiler'? > > It's something that takes code, interprets it into machine code, and from then on, whenever that code needs to be executed, it runs the interpreted version instead. It forms the basis of many emulators - including the Executor Macintosh emulator. I'm not sure how feasible it is for Z80 code given the current memory map (ie paging). I'm also not sure how much would be gained from it, but you never know... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 09:48:12 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612100946.JAA10990@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re:SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:46:53 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1675 Lines: 39 >> >How about providing a just in time compiler to live on the GUI (in >> >addition to a compiler in the CLI?), that would make life much simpler >> >to the novice user. >> >> What do you mean by a 'just in time compiler'? > >It's something that takes code, interprets it into machine code, and from >then on, whenever that code needs to be executed, it runs the interpreted >version instead. It forms the basis of many emulators - including the >Executor Macintosh emulator. I'm not sure how feasible it is for Z80 code >given the current memory map (ie paging). I'm also not sure how much >would be gained from it, but you never know... > >Simon It would be simpler to the user as he(s) would only ever need to manipulate BASIC programs in one format. If the user has to return to SAMSONbasic to compile the BASIC program then swap back to the GUI to run it then the user may just as well run it when in BASIC. (assuming the compiler lives at the CLI BASIC level) The just in time comiler could read a raw, unmodified BASIC program and do it itself as it goes along. How much would be gained?... No, neither do I. It may even be easier to get the new SAMSON interpreter to work in the GUI than write a whole new efficient just in time compiler. >> >If we make the GUI and SAMSONbasic memory models similar enough then >> >there would not be that much trouble with having a GUI based CLI. >> The CLI is the Basic - dont forget that... Don't worry, I assumed I could just write CLI, as CLI and SAMSONbasic are synonomyous terms. There is no real need to write both anymore. It was clear from the context that I ment this anyway, not paranoyed are you? ;o} Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 10:38:48 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101037.KAA11035@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS more stuff for BASIC? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:37:07 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2912 Lines: 77 What I would like to see in the new BASIC... 1) POKE -2 works correctly on the SAM, how about getting HEX$ -2 to give the sensible 2s complement result too? 2) IF something THEN command1 : command2 : ELSE commandA : commandB is great! how about having a IF something THEN command1 : ELSE commandA : commandB : END IF command 3C construct where command3C is executed whether the condition is true of false. 3) SCRLOCATION variable to return the screens location in memory. No more of this silly in252 BAND 31 jiggery pokery 4) WINDOW command to work on pixel level, you state the co-ordinates of the window in pixels not character squares, this also avoids trouble with funny CSIZEs 5) WINDOW command that also sets X/YRG and X/YOR, so PLOT and PRINT work correctly in the same region 6) Someone suggested a SUPERRECORD TO a$ command before I had the chance! RECORD PUT, GRAB, PRINT, WINDOW, SCROLL, etc. 7) Simple, logical way to DIR to a string. 8) GET DIR name$, type$, startAdd, length, directoryNumber. command to provide a simple way to find out the information about a file from within a basic program. (think of a better way to do it!). So the commands... GET DIR "TreesAreGood", type$ PRINT type$ GET DIR filename$, type$, &10000, length PRINT filename$, length work. 9) DPOKE and DPEEK are very useful commands but if we are going to get a 32 bit processor then surely we will want TRIPOKE, TRIPEEK, QUADPOKE and QUADPEEK commands. 10) More and better csizes, should be simple to implement when we get the 'card, but should be thought about now. 11) PUT and GRAB commands that actualy finish execution on the same day that they start. (Don't try to sell me MasterBASIC as that is not THAT much better) if we are going to provide an exelent resource of the fastest/best routines on the ROM (equivilent) then we may as well make them easily accessable from BASIC. 12) COPY command that is logicaly missing from the 'DELETE' 'RENEMBER' set of utilities in SAMbasic. COPY should take the ine number range for a block of code and send COPYs these lines to another number range, performing a MERGE like combination if there is anything there already at the each line to be re-used. e.g. COPY sourceStartLine, sourceEndLine TO DestinationStartLine, RequiredLineNumberSpacing 13) Dynamic allocation of memory for function key programming. 14) The nifty PLAY command already outlined 15) Modification of the MODE and OPEN SCREEN commands so that screen modes can have string names instread of numerical names, e.g. surpose we can surport both pixelmap and bitmap screen formats, we can change modes... MODE "B1024*712" MODE "P1024*712" these 2 modes would have different pixel arrangments. If more 'interesting' 'programmer friendly' modes will be possible, we could have such as... MODE "GIF" MODE "Tilt70%" MODE "autoAnalize512*256" etc... What do we think? Please disect this post. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 11:14:34 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:13:30 +0000 (GMT) From: "A.S. Collier" X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Sam-users Subject: Going down... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 216 Lines: 10 Well, I've just about gone. Please continue to keep the logs Ian, so that certain people don't think they can make nasty comments about me while I'm away ;-) And I'll join you all again in about a month. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 12:03:11 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:06:32 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Momentum Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3F322C778B3@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 672 Lines: 20 . > > Not to mention the times when you can't even see the blocks, or when the > > screen is actually lying.... (adding ceiling tiles to hide holes in the > > floor is a very mean trick!) > > Mmm. A good game, but because of things like the above (and the inability > to change character), I think it is not quite as good as Spindizzy. > Doesn't stop me playing it though :) > Actually, Spindizzy used the occasional illusion too. Graham Goring just decided he loved the things and stuck loads in. Maybe a few too many, but never mind. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX XX X Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! XXX Urgh. I STILL feel ill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 12:17:48 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:21:29 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3F3626E6531@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4583 Lines: 131 > What I would like to see in the new BASIC... > > 1) POKE -2 works correctly on the SAM, how about getting HEX$ -2 to give > the sensible 2s complement result too? What does poke -2 mean then? Oh! Do you mean POKE 16384,-2 puts 254 in 16384? > 2) IF something THEN command1 : command2 : ELSE commandA : commandB is > great! how about having a > IF something THEN command1 : ELSE commandA : commandB : END IF command 3C > construct where command3C is executed whether the condition is true of > false. Nah. You just put command 3C on a seperate line, is it really neccessary to have to put it on the same one? It'll just look cluttered. > 3) SCRLOCATION variable to return the screens location in memory. No more > of this silly in252 BAND 31 jiggery pokery YES! Certainly! PLEAASSEEEEE! > 4) WINDOW command to work on pixel level, you state the co-ordinates of > the window in pixels not character squares, this also avoids trouble with > funny CSIZEs I've hardly ever used the Window command but I can see how this would be very useful indeed. > 5) WINDOW command that also sets X/YRG and X/YOR, so PLOT and PRINT work > correctly in the same region Ditto. > 6) Someone suggested a SUPERRECORD TO a$ command before I had the chance! > RECORD PUT, GRAB, PRINT, WINDOW, SCROLL, etc. That would be kind of nice, too. > 7) Simple, logical way to DIR to a string. What's wrong with MasterDOS - LET A$=DIR$ ? > 8) GET DIR name$, type$, startAdd, length, directoryNumber. command to > provide a simple way to find out the information about a file from within > a basic program. (think of a better way to do it!). So the commands... > GET DIR "TreesAreGood", type$ > PRINT type$ > GET DIR filename$, type$, &10000, length > PRINT filename$, length > work. MasterDOS FSTAT and DSTAT - However, it should read all the information at once and store it somewhere in memory, because if you're looking and multiple files with FSTAT.. it can take a LOOOONNGGG time. Not sure about your syntax above.. > 9) DPOKE and DPEEK are very useful commands but if we are going to get a > 32 bit processor then surely we will want TRIPOKE, TRIPEEK, QUADPOKE and > QUADPEEK commands. Would we really use them THAT much? Let's face it, when you're working in BASIC, you're not usually bothered about the size of the processor.. You'll probably only ever use these commands if you're poking in a machine code program directly... Then again, I'd probably use these commands on the SAM if they existed.. for creating data files and things. > 10) More and better csizes, should be simple to implement when we get the > 'card, but should be thought about now. ERKK! Sort the CSIZE's NOW!! They should be fully scaleable. > 11) PUT and GRAB commands that actualy finish execution on the same day > that they start. (Don't try to sell me MasterBASIC as that is not THAT > much better) if we are going to provide an exelent resource of the > fastest/best routines on the ROM (equivilent) then we may as well make > them easily accessable from BASIC. PUT and GRAB could probably be refined a lot, with loads of new features and stuff. > 12) COPY command that is logicaly missing from the 'DELETE' 'RENEMBER' set > of utilities in SAMbasic. COPY should take the ine number range for a > block of code and send COPYs these lines to another number range, > performing a MERGE like combination if there is anything there already at > the each line to be re-used. e.g. > COPY sourceStartLine, sourceEndLine TO DestinationStartLine, > RequiredLineNumberSpacing Never used RENEMBER myself. And you didn't mention RENUMBER ;) Yeah, COPY would be useful. > 13) Dynamic allocation of memory for function key programming. > 14) The nifty PLAY command already outlined Ooo.. PLAY command. Yes. > 15) Modification of the MODE and OPEN SCREEN commands so that screen modes > can have string names instread of numerical names, e.g. surpose we can > surport both pixelmap and bitmap screen formats, we can change modes... > MODE "B1024*712" > MODE "P1024*712" > these 2 modes would have different pixel arrangments. If more 'interesting' > 'programmer friendly' modes will be possible, we could have such as... > MODE "GIF" > MODE "Tilt70%" > MODE "autoAnalize512*256" > etc... I suppose that would be fine.. Allows future graphics modes to be added. > > > What do we think? > Please disect this post. I just did. > Numb. > -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX XX X Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! XXX Urgh. I STILL feel ill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 12:20:05 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:23:53 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Going down... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3F36CE45FF2@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 446 Lines: 22 > Well, I've just about gone. Hehehe.. That Andrew Collier.. Wasn't he an idiot then..? > Please continue to keep the logs Ian, so that certain people don't think > they can make nasty comments about me while I'm away ;-) D'OH!! ;) > And I'll join you all again in about a month. See you then :) > Andrew -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX XX X Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! XXX Urgh. I STILL feel ill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 12:59:45 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:58:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? In-Reply-To: <199612101037.KAA11035@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2743 Lines: 78 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: > What I would like to see in the new BASIC... > > 1) POKE -2 works correctly on the SAM, how about getting HEX$ -2 to give > the sensible 2s complement result too? But is the sensible 2s complement of HEX$ -2 equal to &FE or &FFFE or &FFFFFFFE? > 2) IF something THEN command1 : command2 : ELSE commandA : commandB is > great! how about having a > IF something THEN command1 : ELSE commandA : commandB : END IF command 3C > construct where command3C is executed whether the condition is true of > false. What's the benefit in doing this over putting command 3C on a following line? > 3) SCRLOCATION variable to return the screens location in memory. No more > of this silly in252 BAND 31 jiggery pokery MasterBasic? > 4) WINDOW command to work on pixel level, you state the co-ordinates of > the window in pixels not character squares, this also avoids trouble with > funny CSIZEs How does funny CSIZEs affect that? The window is fixed in terms of character size, as I assume it's easier to print to. > 5) WINDOW command that also sets X/YRG and X/YOR, so PLOT and PRINT work > correctly in the same region OK, but how about the idea of separate graphics and text windows? > 6) Someone suggested a SUPERRECORD TO a$ command before I had the chance! > RECORD PUT, GRAB, PRINT, WINDOW, SCROLL, etc. The more you put into RECORD etc, the slower BLITZ will become. Try a compiler instead :) > 7) Simple, logical way to DIR to a string. MasterDos? > 8) GET DIR name$, type$, startAdd, length, directoryNumber. command to > provide a simple way to find out the information about a file from within > a basic program. (think of a better way to do it!). So the commands... > GET DIR "TreesAreGood", type$ > PRINT type$ > GET DIR filename$, type$, &10000, length > PRINT filename$, length > work. MasterBasic? > 9) DPOKE and DPEEK are very useful commands but if we are going to get a > 32 bit processor then surely we will want TRIPOKE, TRIPEEK, QUADPOKE and > QUADPEEK commands. Possibly QUAD*, but I wouldn't have though TRI*. > 10) More and better csizes, should be simple to implement when we get the > 'card, but should be thought about now. MasterBasic? > 11) PUT and GRAB commands that actualy finish execution on the same day > that they start. (Don't try to sell me MasterBASIC as that is not THAT > much better) if we are going to provide an exelent resource of the > fastest/best routines on the ROM (equivilent) then we may as well make > them easily accessable from BASIC. They're mainly slow because the Z80 isn't up to it. (and it uses buffers to get round the paging?). Not much you can do. I do like MasterBasic's combination PUT/GRAB command though. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 13:21:05 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961210132234.008f9854@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:22:34 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1217 Lines: 35 At 10:37 10/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >2) IF something THEN command1 : command2 : ELSE commandA : commandB is >great! how about having a >IF something THEN command1 : ELSE commandA : commandB : END IF command 3C >construct where command3C is executed whether the condition is true of >false. I can't see the advantage of this... Please explain further what exactly you're trying to do? If it's just to compress it all on to one line, why bother? >3) SCRLOCATION variable to return the screens location in memory. No more >of this silly in252 BAND 31 jiggery pokery That's in MASTERBASIC. >7) Simple, logical way to DIR to a string. LET A$=DIR$ :) >9) DPOKE and DPEEK are very useful commands but if we are going to get a >32 bit processor then surely we will want TRIPOKE, TRIPEEK, QUADPOKE and >QUADPEEK commands. TRIPOKE and TRIPEEK look pretty useless to me, but QPOKE and QPEEK maybe... >15) Modification of the MODE and OPEN SCREEN commands so that screen modes >can have string names instread of numerical names, e.g. surpose we can >surport both pixelmap and bitmap screen formats, we can change modes... >MODE "B1024*712" >MODE "P1024*712" Pixelmap and bitmap formats? Where's the difference? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 13:23:28 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101321.NAA11593@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS more stuff for BASIC? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:21:23 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 736 Lines: 22 >> 1) POKE -2 works correctly on the SAM, how about getting HEX$ -2 to >>give the sensible 2s complement result too? >> >What does poke -2 mean then? Oh! Do you mean POKE 16384,-2 puts >254 in 16384? > yes, I did. TIM>But is the sensible 2s complement of HEX$ -2 equal to &FE or &FFFE or TIM>&FFFFFFFE? TIM> I was thinking of &FE, but I surpose &FF..FE makes more sense for the HEX$ command... This has brought up another good suggestion for the new system... 16) SHEX command to convert a number into an 8bit HEX string. i.e. SHEX$ -2 gives "FE" and SHEX$ &6b38 gives "38", the patten for commands DHEX$ and QHEX$, it is fairly annoying the way HEX$ changes the scale. These would not be that hard to implement either. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 13:35:23 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101332.NAA11708@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS more stuff ENDIF To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:32:38 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 852 Lines: 27 >> IF something THEN command1 : ELSE commandA : commandB :END IF command3C >> construct where command3C is executed whether the condition is true of >> false. >> > Nah. You just put command 3C on a seperate line, is it really > neccessary to have to put it on the same one? It'll just look > cluttered. TIM> TIM> What's the benefit in doing this over putting command 3C on a TIM> following line? So you can write a one line flight simulator! It's the power of BASIC. Numb. Anyway LIST FORMAT 2 indents things better and more reliably when you stick it all in one line, I thought a fair number of weirdos out there didn't like the cool line numbers we are blessed with? C just uses ; instead of :o) If you want to see cluttered and ugly, look at a long IF statement, they are just about the only things in SAMbasic that I actively dislike. From imc Tue Dec 10 13:37:13 1996 Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:37:13 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612101037.KAA11035@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 10, 96 10:37:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2184 Lines: 63 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:37:07 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > 2) IF something THEN command1 : command2 : ELSE commandA : commandB is > great! how about having a > IF something THEN command1 : ELSE commandA : commandB : END IF command 3C > construct where command3C is executed whether the condition is true of > false. Just so you can write everything on one line and make the program even more unreadable? > 3) SCRLOCATION variable to return the screens location in memory. No more > of this silly in252 BAND 31 jiggery pokery But you're not really supposed to be poking into the screen (it's even slower than put and grab...). > 4) WINDOW command to work on pixel level, you state the co-ordinates of > the window in pixels not character squares, this also avoids trouble with > funny CSIZEs Erm, but it's a text window, not a graphics window. > 5) WINDOW command that also sets X/YRG and X/YOR, so PLOT and PRINT work > correctly in the same region Ditto. > 7) Simple, logical way to DIR to a string. What's wrong with it at present? > 8) GET DIR name$, type$, startAdd, length, directoryNumber. command to > provide a simple way to find out the information about a file from within > a basic program. (think of a better way to do it!). So the commands... > GET DIR "TreesAreGood", type$ > PRINT type$ > GET DIR filename$, type$, &10000, length > PRINT filename$, length > work. MasterDOS has it already, and in function syntax which is a lot more logical than this. > 9) DPOKE and DPEEK are very useful commands but if we are going to get a > 32 bit processor then surely we will want TRIPOKE, TRIPEEK, QUADPOKE and > QUADPEEK commands. Erk. A bit over the top, I think. > 15) Modification of the MODE and OPEN SCREEN commands so that screen modes > can have string names instread of numerical names, e.g. surpose we can > surport both pixelmap and bitmap screen formats, we can change modes... > MODE "B1024*712" > MODE "P1024*712" > these 2 modes would have different pixel arrangments. If more 'interesting' > 'programmer friendly' modes will be possible, we could have such as... > MODE "GIF" > MODE "Tilt70%" > MODE "autoAnalize512*256" Get real! imc From imc Tue Dec 10 13:38:58 1996 Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:38:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3F3626E6531@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Dec 10, 96 12:21:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 191 Lines: 6 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:21:29 GMT, James R Curry said: > Ooo.. PLAY command. Yes. Haven't we said SYNCYTIUM enough in the past few days? OK then, SYNCYTIUM. imc (co-author of SYNCYTIUM) From imc Tue Dec 10 13:40:48 1996 Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:40:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Dec 10, 96 12:58:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 487 Lines: 12 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:58:05 +0000 (GMT), Tim Wells said: > > 9) DPOKE and DPEEK are very useful commands but if we are going to get a > > 32 bit processor then surely we will want TRIPOKE, TRIPEEK, QUADPOKE and > > QUADPEEK commands. > Possibly QUAD*, but I wouldn't have though TRI*. Actually, treek and troke would be quite useful as it is now, but they don't do what you think. You would use them to decode system variables like CHAD which have a page number and an offset. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 13:42:28 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101340.NAA11773@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS more stuff MASTERBASIC To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:40:41 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 612 Lines: 18 >> 7) Simple, logical way to DIR to a string. >> >What's wrong with MasterDOS - LET A$=DIR$ ? > I am certain you guessed that I don't own it. I don't remember anyone saying how wonderfull it is when Bob asked for favorite features, all I remember are people saying that they hate it! As the new BASIC is not going to be based on a bunch of patches but on SAMbasic, I think someone should try to list all of the features from MASTERbasic that they think should be included on the new version of SAMbasic (not MASTERbasic) based SAMSONbasic. Get them out in the open so THEY can be disected too. Thanks. Numb. From imc Tue Dec 10 13:46:42 1996 Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:46:42 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612101321.NAA11593@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 10, 96 01:21:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 567 Lines: 15 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:21:23 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > 16) SHEX command to convert a number into an 8bit HEX string. i.e. SHEX$ > -2 gives "FE" and SHEX$ &6b38 gives "38", the patten for commands DHEX$ > and QHEX$, it is fairly annoying the way HEX$ changes the scale. These > would not be that hard to implement either. Good grief, find the stupid way to do it why don't you. HEX$ -2 -> says "E" HEX$ (-2,4) -> says "FFFE" Simple, logical and doesn't require you to invent a new letter and reserve a new keyword for each different length. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 13:47:17 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:49:56 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Play Command Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3F4DBBB65D1@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 693 Lines: 21 > > Ooo.. PLAY command. Yes. > > Haven't we said SYNCYTIUM enough in the past few days? OK then, SYNCYTIUM. > > imc (co-author of SYNCYTIUM) Look, I'm impressed. I've SEEN the PLAY COMMAND in SYNCYTIUM. But It's useless in so far as anyone who wants to run software which I write using the PLAY command will have to by SYNCYTIUM first. This is EXACTLY the reason I don't buy MasterBasic. If there was a way to get other people to run my software without having to own the language then fine, but otherwise I don't believe in using these Basic add-ons. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX XX X Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! XXX Urgh. I STILL feel ill. From imc Tue Dec 10 13:48:32 1996 Subject: Re: SOS more stuff ENDIF To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:48:32 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612101332.NAA11708@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 10, 96 01:32:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 497 Lines: 12 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:32:38 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > Anyway LIST FORMAT 2 indents things better and more reliably when you > stick it all in one line, I thought a fair number of weirdos out there > didn't like the cool line numbers we are blessed with? C just uses ; > instead of :o) > > If you want to see cluttered and ugly, look at a long IF statement, they > are just about the only things in SAMbasic that I actively dislike. What you want sir is not BASIC - it is Rexx. imc From imc Tue Dec 10 13:50:52 1996 Subject: Re: Play Command To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:50:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3F4DBBB65D1@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> from "James R Curry" at Dec 10, 96 01:49:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 325 Lines: 8 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:49:56 GMT, James R Curry said: > Look, I'm impressed. I've SEEN the PLAY COMMAND in SYNCYTIUM. But > It's useless in so far as anyone who wants to run software which I > write using the PLAY command will have to by SYNCYTIUM first. Just tell'em it's cheaper than buying a 128K spectrum. :-) imc From imc Tue Dec 10 13:51:40 1996 Subject: Re: SOS more stuff MASTERBASIC To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:51:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612101340.NAA11773@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 10, 96 01:40:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 515 Lines: 14 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:40:41 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > >What's wrong with MasterDOS - LET A$=DIR$ ? > I am certain you guessed that I don't own it. I don't remember anyone > saying how wonderfull it is when Bob asked for favorite features, all I > remember are people saying that they hate it! > As the new BASIC is not going to be based on a bunch of patches but on > SAMbasic, I think someone should try to list all of the features from > MASTERbasic Look, he said MasterDOS, not MASTERbasic. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 13:55:16 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:53:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Rexx? In-Reply-To: <9612101348.AA02318@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 706 Lines: 17 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > What you want sir is not BASIC - it is Rexx. I keep hearing about Rexx... What is it? Is there a shareware/freeware compiler/interpreter for the PC? (Eeek... I didn't manage to say SAM.. Errmm.... i know: Everyone go out and buy a SAM Coupe NOW!!!) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From imc Tue Dec 10 13:58:16 1996 Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:58:16 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Dec 5, 96 01:10:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 341 Lines: 10 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:10:46 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > > I don't know, because as far as I know the hook code for opening a file in > > the first place doesn't work properly! > You mean I've got to waste half the memory to decode things still? I'm > only doing it this way to test the algolrithms... What's that in English? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 13:58:28 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:57:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam users Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? In-Reply-To: <199612101037.KAA11035@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4093 Lines: 121 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: ;> ;>1) POKE -2 works correctly on the SAM, how about getting HEX$ -2 to give ;>the sensible 2s complement result too? I don't understand, please explain ... ;> ;>2) IF something THEN command1 : command2 : ELSE commandA : commandB is ;>great! how about having a ;>IF something THEN command1 : ELSE commandA : commandB : END IF command 3C ;>construct where command3C is executed whether the condition is true of ;>false. This does exist, just use ... 10 IF something THEN command1 : command2 : ELSE commandA : commandB 20 command3C Isn't this what you mean ??? ;> ;>3) SCRLOCATION variable to return the screens location in memory. No more ;>of this silly in252 BAND 31 jiggery pokery Hmm, bit of a waste of ROM space though for such a simple task ... ;> ;>4) WINDOW command to work on pixel level, you state the co-ordinates of ;>the window in pixels not character squares, this also avoids trouble with ;>funny CSIZEs YES, YES, YES .... ;> ;>5) WINDOW command that also sets X/YRG and X/YOR, so PLOT and PRINT work ;>correctly in the same region ;> ;>6) Someone suggested a SUPERRECORD TO a$ command before I had the chance! ;>RECORD PUT, GRAB, PRINT, WINDOW, SCROLL, etc. ;> YEP, should be fairly easy, if a bit memory-intensive if you were going to write a _really_ good one ... ;>7) Simple, logical way to DIR to a string. ;> ;>8) GET DIR name$, type$, startAdd, length, directoryNumber. command to ;>provide a simple way to find out the information about a file from within ;>a basic program. (think of a better way to do it!). So the commands... ;>GET DIR "TreesAreGood", type$ ;>PRINT type$ ;>GET DIR filename$, type$, &10000, length ;>PRINT filename$, length ;>work. ;> Not too sure whether this is necessary since the only programs that would really need to use these types of thing are disc-management programs, and these would just write their own (It's not _too_ hard after all ...). It's another case of using up valuable token, and memory space for rarely-used commands. ps. if I'm wrong about their usability, and enough people actually want them then fair enough ... ;>9) DPOKE and DPEEK are very useful commands but if we are going to get a ;>32 bit processor then surely we will want TRIPOKE, TRIPEEK, QUADPOKE and ;>QUADPEEK commands. ;> ;>10) More and better csizes, should be simple to implement when we get the ;>'card, but should be thought about now. ;> ;>11) PUT and GRAB commands that actualy finish execution on the same day ;>that they start. (Don't try to sell me MasterBASIC as that is not THAT ;>much better) if we are going to provide an exelent resource of the ;>fastest/best routines on the ROM (equivilent) then we may as well make ;>them easily accessable from BASIC. ;> ;>12) COPY command that is logicaly missing from the 'DELETE' 'RENEMBER' set ;>of utilities in SAMbasic. COPY should take the ine number range for a ;>block of code and send COPYs these lines to another number range, ;>performing a MERGE like combination if there is anything there already at ;>the each line to be re-used. e.g. ;>COPY sourceStartLine, sourceEndLine TO DestinationStartLine, ;>RequiredLineNumberSpacing ;> ;>13) Dynamic allocation of memory for function key programming. ;> ;>14) The nifty PLAY command already outlined ;> ;>15) Modification of the MODE and OPEN SCREEN commands so that screen modes ;>can have string names instread of numerical names, e.g. surpose we can ;>surport both pixelmap and bitmap screen formats, we can change modes... ;>MODE "B1024*712" ;>MODE "P1024*712" ;> these 2 modes would have different pixel arrangments. If more 'interesting' ;>'programmer friendly' modes will be possible, we could have such as... ;>MODE "GIF" ;>MODE "Tilt70%" ;>MODE "autoAnalize512*256" ;>etc... ;> ARRGGGHHH, how much hard work .... ;> ;>What do we think? Good ideas overall ... ;>Please disect this post. I enjoyed it, it made my day ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 14:00:10 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:02:34 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Play Command Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3F511A16272@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 963 Lines: 23 > On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:49:56 GMT, James R Curry said: > > Look, I'm impressed. I've SEEN the PLAY COMMAND in SYNCYTIUM. But > > It's useless in so far as anyone who wants to run software which I > > write using the PLAY command will have to by SYNCYTIUM first. > > Just tell'em it's cheaper than buying a 128K spectrum. :-) > But that's the thing you see. They'll say - I've bought YOUR program, why should I buy something else as well. If you came up with some kind of way for programs to use the play command and be distributed freely, then I'd rush out and by it tommorow.. How about this, you provide a free program which will allow the PLAY command to work within programs, but it won't allow it to be entered into the machine, so lines with PLAY in can't be edited and PLAY can't be entered at the Basic prompt? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX XX X Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! XXX Urgh. I STILL feel ill. From imc Tue Dec 10 14:02:10 1996 Subject: Re: SOS PLAY command To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:02:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1D20E57159@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Dec 5, 96 01:46:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 686 Lines: 16 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:46:24 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > We could get the command to multitask with other basic commands, so when > > the string is encountered it starts to play the string and continues > > exectuting the rest of the basic program while it continues to play. > Yes - or have it exclusive. And optional command in the music string, > perhaps, eg > PLAY "-bCGAAG" would play in background > PLAY "CGAAG" wouldn't The PLAY command as it stands isn't suitable for backgrounding until we have accurate interval timer hardware, because the notes aren't all a whole number of frames long, especially since you can set the metronome to any integer between 60 and 240. imc From imc Tue Dec 10 14:04:25 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:04:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961205133953_1521043377@emout03.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 5, 96 01:39:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 496 Lines: 10 On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:39:54 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Now we need to do the same with the new generation of SAM. I'me not talking > about going back to single key entry (although I do want to sort out those > that are supported at the moment) but I am talking about making the new > version of Basic easier to learn by reducing the number of rules you have to > learn. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Here you go again. And here I ask again: WHAT RULES? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 14:05:56 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:03:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1742 Lines: 50 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Tim Wells wrote: ;>On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: ;> ;>> 4) WINDOW command to work on pixel level, you state the co-ordinates of ;>> the window in pixels not character squares, this also avoids trouble with ;>> funny CSIZEs ;> ;>How does funny CSIZEs affect that? The window is fixed in terms of ;>character size, as I assume it's easier to print to. ;> But it shouldn't have to be like that, we can make it how we want, and this arrangement would be a _lot_ better ... ;>> 6) Someone suggested a SUPERRECORD TO a$ command before I had the chance! ;>> RECORD PUT, GRAB, PRINT, WINDOW, SCROLL, etc. ;> ;>The more you put into RECORD etc, the slower BLITZ will become. Try a ;>compiler instead :) I wouldn't have thought so .... ;> ;>> 11) PUT and GRAB commands that actualy finish execution on the same day ;>> that they start. (Don't try to sell me MasterBASIC as that is not THAT ;>> much better) if we are going to provide an exelent resource of the ;>> fastest/best routines on the ROM (equivilent) then we may as well make ;>> them easily accessable from BASIC. ;> ;>They're mainly slow because the Z80 isn't up to it. (and it uses buffers Not true at all, ask any demo coder around. Admittedly the Z80 ain't brilliant at moving chunks of memory around but there are ways to put sprites to the screen a hello of a lot faster than BASIC does it at the mo'. GRAB could be tricky though .... ;>to get round the paging?). Not much you can do. I do like MasterBasic's ;>combination PUT/GRAB command though. ;> Can't say I've ever used it .. Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From imc Tue Dec 10 14:06:46 1996 Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:06:46 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612061755.AA24046@turner.cursci.co.uk> from "Keith Turner" at Dec 6, 96 05:55:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 253 Lines: 8 On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:55:19 GMT, Keith Turner said: > Have you ever downloaded a GIF from a web server? Do you know how web > servers recognise GIFs? Do you think they use magic numbers in directory > listings? Nope, it uses the file name. :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 14:11:10 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:08:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1658 Lines: 36 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Lee Willis wrote: > ;>7) Simple, logical way to DIR to a string. > ;> > ;>8) GET DIR name$, type$, startAdd, length, directoryNumber. command to > ;>provide a simple way to find out the information about a file from within > ;>a basic program. (think of a better way to do it!). So the commands... > ;>GET DIR "TreesAreGood", type$ > ;>PRINT type$ > ;>GET DIR filename$, type$, &10000, length > ;>PRINT filename$, length > ;>work. > > Not too sure whether this is necessary since the only programs that would > really need to use these types of thing are disc-management programs, and > these would just write their own (It's not _too_ hard after all ...). It's > another case of using up valuable token, and memory space for rarely-used > commands. ps. if I'm wrong about their usability, and enough people > actually want them then fair enough ... No.. You don't want it in a string.. you want each file name as an element in an ARRAY... or even better.... Can SAMSONBasic please please pretty please have something like Pascal's RECORDs or C's STRUCTs? It'll make my life a lot simpler.. :) I would ask for it to be object orientated BASIC aswell but since everyone blasted me for suggesting to get rid of line numbers, I won't... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 14:13:19 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101411.OAA11870@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS more stuff MODE To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:11:35 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1899 Lines: 52 >> 15) Modification of the MODE and OPEN SCREEN commands so that screen >> modes can have string names instread of numerical names, e.g. surpose >> we can surport both pixelmap and bitmap screen formats, we can change >> modes... >> MODE "B1024*712" >> MODE "P1024*712" On second thoughts, if the 'card will be capable of generating a great variety of screen resolutions, then perhaps the syntax would be better as... MODE modeType$,XResolution,Yresolution,NoColours i.e. MODE "Bit", 1024, 712, 256 MODE "Pix", 1024, 712, 256 If such diversity is possible them there will only be a need to blank the screen when changing the type of screen resolution. Changing the number of colours could be easily bodged to just clip the numbers or pad them out. changing resolution->real time scalling in BASIC! (in effect!) MODE "PIX", 256,172,16 Print "HELLO" MODE "PIX, 1024, 712,16 ! >Pixelmap and bitmap formats? Where's the difference? As I understand it, the SAM uses a pixelmap to store its screen display, N consecutive bits store all of the information about the colour of the pixel on the screen, then the next N consecutive bits store all of the information of the next pixel on the screen. -This makes full colour sprites etc. much simpler to program, and the whole system much more fun to think about. Bitmaps on the other hand, as is found on the Amiga, the information is stored in a number of different bit planes, The colour of the first pixel is stored in the first bit of each plane, each plane being stored in a different place in memory. The colour of the second pixel is determined by the 2nd bit on each plane. -This makes very limited colour sprites faster to handle, and alows faster scrolling if you only want to scroll a couple of the bit planes. It makes it easier to have 5bit colour too. It also makes the whole system bloody annoying to program! Am I wrong? Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 14:23:42 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:18:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS file types In-Reply-To: <9612101358.AA02405@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1107 Lines: 26 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:10:46 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > > > I don't know, because as far as I know the hook code for opening a file in > > > the first place doesn't work properly! > > > You mean I've got to waste half the memory to decode things still? I'm > > only doing it this way to test the algolrithms... > > What's that in English? Load, say, 100K to address 64k Program decodes the file to a nice simple uncompressed format to addr 164k Now.. If I could load in the file one byte at the time and decode it that way I could have 400K file instead of 200K without overwriting anything! And in English, that means I'm a crap coder... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From imc Tue Dec 10 14:31:15 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:31:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Dec 7, 96 07:38:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 628 Lines: 15 On Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:38:20 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > Having said all that, I agree that it should be possible to create a > Windowing system which doesn't take so much memory as Win95 does, and > possibly is even a nicer environment to work in. Yes. It's called OS/2... > Put it this way, you can have SUPERDUPERARCADEGAME(TM) running in a > pointlessly resizable window, doing all screen operations by proxy, taking > keyboard input only when you're pointing to the right window, and > generally struggling to work at any decent sort of speed; Or not. See the various free X-based games around on the net. imc From imc Tue Dec 10 14:32:00 1996 Subject: Re: The SAMSON GUI To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:32:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "A.S. Collier" at Dec 7, 96 07:43:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 264 Lines: 7 On Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:43:00 +0000 (GMT), A.S. Collier said: > I know exactly what you mean. You can't please any of the people for even > a little of the time, or something. ^^^ Not true. You can probably please yourself for most of the time... imc From imc Tue Dec 10 14:35:18 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:35:18 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961207174242_1423501627@emout01.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 7, 96 05:42:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1111 Lines: 25 On Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:42:44 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > Too bloody true. This is the main reason (I feel) that the system need to be > rehashed once it is in SRAM. Get rid of Hook Codes (in the sence that you > need RST 8 anyway). What's wrong with RST 8 then? > >Bob, Re Bugs in DOS hook codes: Generally, they don't work. If you haven't > >heard of any problems then you haven't been reading this list for the past > >few days. > No, what I ment was that until a few days ago - with the messages on this > list - I had not heard of problems. But then I had assumed until now that > most people who were serious about their SAM already had MasterDOS. There is > certainly enough on disc mags like FRED and SAM Sup that only works with > MasterDOS that I jusr assumed. Not all the MasterDOS hook codes work either. For example: try the one to load a particular sector. Well actually, even the one in SamDOS works (after a fashion), or so it seems. Now pretend you forgot to put a disk in. Instead of saying "You forgot to put the disk in" it just silently waits forever until you put it in. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 14:39:43 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:37:57 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Dec 10, 96 02:08:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 217 Lines: 6 > I would ask for it to be object orientated BASIC aswell but since everyone > blasted me for suggesting to get rid of line numbers, I won't... > Tell you wot, why not go for a graphical entry system like HOOD? :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 14:45:59 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:43:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 949 Lines: 20 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Andrew M Gale wrote: > > I would ask for it to be object orientated BASIC aswell but since everyone > > blasted me for suggesting to get rid of line numbers, I won't... > > > > Tell you wot, why not go for a graphical entry system like HOOD? :) HOOD? Never heard of it... But the way it sounds like is that you make programs using icons.. urgh.. I like typing things!!! Visual C++, and the like, is horrid coz it does most of the coding for you... That's cheating!!! I go as far as Borland Pascal with Objects and no further! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From imc Tue Dec 10 14:50:44 1996 Subject: Re: Rexx? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:50:44 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Dec 10, 96 01:53:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 797 Lines: 20 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:53:59 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > I keep hearing about Rexx... What is it? http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/users/ian.collier/Rexx/info.html > Is there a shareware/freeware > compiler/interpreter for the PC? If you are running PC DOS 7 or OS/2 then you already have it. If you are running Linux then you can get one from my web page. As doubtless you are running some other inferior operating system (which I have never used and don't know anything about) then I don't know the exact answer. However, you might be able to use the MSDOS interpreter which is called "brexx" and always used to be found on rexx.uwaterloo.ca under /pub/rexx. imc PS I vote for Rexx to replace BASIC in the next incarnation of the Sam. :-) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 14:55:10 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101450.OAA11932@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for OBJECTS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:50:40 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1466 Lines: 44 >> turnip$ ="Humm, I suggest a few improvements on a slow day and 34 new >> messages appear before I have time to blink.", 70 >> > No.. You don't want it in a string.. you want each file name as an > element in an ARRAY... or even better.... > > Can SAMSONBasic please please pretty please have something like Pascal's > RECORDs or C's STRUCTs? It'll make my life a lot simpler.. :) > I would ask for it to be object orientated BASIC aswell but since > everyone blasted me for suggesting to get rid of line numbers, I > won't... Never hesitate to have a good idea. I don't think going down the road of pointers in BASIC would be a wise move though. But if you could think of a way to do it without the user seeing these things... DIM type^(Name$,Price) One big problem is the lack of an expandable array, we would be forced to use: DIM type^(3; Name$, Price) could just as easily be represented using the old style DIM Name$(3,28):DIM Price(3) (Why can't we have a DIM Name$(3,28), Price(3) anyway?) The main advantage in putting them in the same object would be data hiding and there is no need for this the BASIC as far as I can see. And then we don't have to worry about... DIM type^ (3; Names$, Price, type^()) problems. BASIC lacks a dynamic/expandable array. Perhaps we could extend the logic of the expandable string type. This is achievable, the concept of an object would probably involve too much work. Time for someone to disagree. Numb. From imc Tue Dec 10 14:57:46 1996 Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for OBJECTS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:57:46 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612101450.OAA11932@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 10, 96 02:50:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 143 Lines: 6 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:50:40 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > BASIC lacks a dynamic/expandable array. I told you you wanted Rexx... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 15:03:14 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:06:17 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for OBJECTS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <3F621E25DA7@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 390 Lines: 15 > On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:50:40 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > > BASIC lacks a dynamic/expandable array. > > I told you you wanted Rexx... Why do I get the feeling that you're going to be mentioning Rexx in every message for the next few months then..? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX XX X Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! XXX Urgh. I STILL feel ill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 15:06:50 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:05:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for OBJECTS In-Reply-To: <3F621E25DA7@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Message-Id: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 614 Lines: 25 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, James R Curry wrote: ;> ;>> On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:50:40 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: Erm, if was Ian that was going on about Rexx, I think your mailer has got things a bit wrong ... ;>> > BASIC lacks a dynamic/expandable array. ;>> ;>> I told you you wanted Rexx... ;> ;>Why do I get the feeling that you're going to be mentioning Rexx in ;>every message for the next few months then..? ;>-- I reckon he's on commision ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 15:08:03 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101459.OAA11954@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SYNCYTIUM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:59:46 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 364 Lines: 13 >> Ooo.. PLAY command. Yes. > > Haven't we said SYNCYTIUM enough in the past few days? OK then, > SYNCYTIUM. > imc (co-author of SYNCYTIUM) > But will you be happy letting the next version sit on the SAMSON ROM (equivilent)? i.e. can we plan developing an new, improved one from it (i.e. drum beats etc.) or do we plan writing a new, 'independent' one? Numb? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 15:18:28 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:16:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Rexx? In-Reply-To: <9612101450.AA02653@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1036 Lines: 24 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: > answer. However, you might be able to use the MSDOS interpreter which is > called "brexx" and always used to be found on rexx.uwaterloo.ca under > /pub/rexx. Off to have a look.... Hmm.. I'll have to download a copy... > PS I vote for Rexx to replace BASIC in the next incarnation of the Sam. :-) And I vote for a SAM version of Object Pascal! :) We should port every language under the sun to SAM! Anyway, Ian, the best way of getting a REXX for the SAM is to make it yourself... And since all the talented guys on this list seem to be busy doing other things, were stuck! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 15:29:43 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101527.PAA12061@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS features of Rexx? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:27:51 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 605 Lines: 20 >> On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:50:40 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: >> > BASIC lacks a dynamic/expandable array. >> >> I told you you wanted Rexx... > simple solution... I challenge you to list all of Rexx'es best (scavenable) features. I challenge the masterBASIC and masterDOS people to list the features they want from there. I challenge all C.... etc... Then no one can ever say... 'YOU want cos it can ' ^^^ It is OUR language, put in it what WE want, if we think we can handle programming something and we can justify the memory usage. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 16:23:30 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:18:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS more stuff for BASIC? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2109 Lines: 49 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Lee Willis wrote: > ;>> 4) WINDOW command to work on pixel level, you state the co-ordinates of > ;>> the window in pixels not character squares, this also avoids trouble with > ;>> funny CSIZEs > ;> > ;>How does funny CSIZEs affect that? The window is fixed in terms of > ;>character size, as I assume it's easier to print to. > ;> > > But it shouldn't have to be like that, we can make it how we want, and > this arrangement would be a _lot_ better ... How would it be better? Why would you want to make a window which is not on a character square alignment? Would being able to define a 1 pixel x 1 pixel window be useful, and how would you modify the basic print routine to print your 32x32 font to that window? > ;>> 6) Someone suggested a SUPERRECORD TO a$ command before I had the chance! > ;>> RECORD PUT, GRAB, PRINT, WINDOW, SCROLL, etc. > ;> > ;>The more you put into RECORD etc, the slower BLITZ will become. Try a > ;>compiler instead :) > > I wouldn't have thought so .... It's fairly obviously so. However something else to think about is that all of BLITZ's data must be held in one string => all the characters in print statements, every pixel in your PUT data etc must be held in that one string - that string's going to be a bit large and unwieldy by the time you finish. (Remembering that part of BLITZ's speed comes from the fact that it only stores computed values - no looking up of variables etc.) > ;>> 11) PUT and GRAB commands that actualy finish execution on the same day > ;>> that they start. (Don't try to sell me MasterBASIC as that is not THAT > ;>> much better) if we are going to provide an exelent resource of the > ;>> fastest/best routines on the ROM (equivilent) then we may as well make > ;>> them easily accessable from BASIC. > ;> > ;>They're mainly slow because the Z80 isn't up to it. (and it uses buffers > > Not true at all, ask any demo coder around. Unfortunately demo coders don't normally have to live with Basic's overheads, ie Keyscans, and other interrupts, having SVARS in page B, and ROM in page A... Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 16:50:59 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101645.QAA12639@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS more stuff WINDOW To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:45:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1131 Lines: 28 NUMB>4) WINDOW command to work on pixel level, you state the co-ordinates NUMB>of the window in pixels not character squares, this also avoids NUMB>trouble with funny CSIZEs NUMB> TIM>How does funny CSIZEs affect that? The window is fixed in terms of TIM>character size, as I assume it's easier to print to. TIM> LE>But it shouldn't have to be like that, we can make it how we want, and LE>this arrangement would be a _lot_ better ... LE> >How would it be better? Why would you want to make a window which is not >on a character square alignment? Would being able to define a 1 pixel x 1 >pixel window be useful, and how would you modify the basic print routine >to print your 32x32 font to that window? It appears to be my job to suggest the obvious compromise. WINDOW topLeftCornerPixelsX, topLeftCornerPixelY, NoOfChactersWide, NoOfChacatersDeep That way you get most of the flexibilty I was thinking about when I originaly suggesting the improved WINDOW command and you don't have to worry about having to stop the text before the edge of the WINDOW. Question now is what to do when the user changes CSIZE? C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 17:17:55 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:02:40 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Going down... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <214514C6EA3@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 281 Lines: 13 > Well, I've just about gone. > > Please continue to keep the logs Ian, so that certain people don't think > they can make nasty comments about me while I'm away ;-) Ooohh, that Andrew Collier... :) >Andrew Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 17:30:28 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612101720.RAA12939@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: SOS more stuff WINDOW To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:20:45 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1177 Lines: 35 >> 5) WINDOW command that also sets X/YRG and X/YOR, so PLOT and PRINT >>work correctly in the same region >>numb >> >OK, but how about the idea of separate graphics and text windows? >Tim W. > How about it. There would be no need if each window sets its own X/YRG and X/YOR, as you cannot multitask within BASIC! If we had a number of windows established at one time we could just swap between them, writing text in one and graphics in the other, there is no need to distinguish their types within BASIC. But we can only have 1 window at a time at the mo. 17) How about we treat the windows as seperate streams just like we treat the whole screen as a stream. WINDOW #7;100,100,10,5 WINDOW #8;400,110,10,5 PRINT "hello" prints to the default, whole screen stream PRINT #7;"Trees" print to window 7 PLOT #8;20,15 plots in window 8 DRAW #8;10,10,2 plots in window 8 PRINT #8;AT 2,2;"Breakfast" prints to window 8 Just like you would PRINT to a printer or the bottom 2 screen lines. There will be little need for the steams on top of BASIC for networking if the NOS is good enough. It is not done like this already is it? Now wanting to make a fool of myself... Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 17:41:52 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:38:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Going Home Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 663 Lines: 16 I dunno, all these students, going home for Xmas and unsubbing from the list, what's up with them, when I were an undergrad I thought nothing of going home for the summer, and coming back to the joys of 2000 sam-users emails awaiting my return (400 flames, 1000 me too's, 100 new ideas, and 500 comments on the comments on the comments on the ideas including all the previous emails quoted.) Gui's all of you. ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 10 18:01:49 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:58:27 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Going Home - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 587 Lines: 22 > I dunno, all these students, going home for Xmas and > unsubbing from the list, what's up with them, when I > were an undergrad I thought nothing of going home for > the summer, and coming back to the joys of 2000 sam-users > emails awaiting my return Aye lad, yoof a'today don't know their bloody born. Girles, all of you. Get a job stoodents and stop drinking away my bloody taxes. Scuffers the lot of you. Gercha! And we didn't have no namby-pamby mail readers neither, if you can't read an IP packet in VI then your a big girls blouse... :) :) :) Happy Chrimbo... Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 11:42:01 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcws209.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:40:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Is there ... Message-Id: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 257 Lines: 12 Hello, Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the Christmas vacation ...? Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 11:56:19 1996 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:50:19 +0000 (GMT) From: David Zambonini To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Is there ... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 274 Lines: 16 On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Lee Willis wrote: > Hello, > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > Christmas vacation ...? > > Lee. Well, I'm still here, but I wouldn't expect me to actaully **say** anything... :) DMZ (David Zambonini) --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 12:00:42 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:55:58 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Is there ... - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 130 Lines: 13 > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated > for the Christmas vacation ...? Vacation? What's that then? D. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 12:00:57 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:54:25 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Is there ... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <2270B350237@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 293 Lines: 13 > Hello, > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > Christmas vacation ...? I think everybody has run out of things to say - only three mails this morning when I logged on! > > Lee. > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 12:01:09 1996 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:57:53 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612111157.AA20131@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Is there ... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 135 Lines: 8 > Hello, > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > Christmas vacation ...? What vacation? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 12:05:47 1996 From: sh5655@bristol.ac.uk (SL Harding) Message-Id: <199612111147.LAA03180@willow.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Are there ... any trees? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:47:51 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee Willis" at Dec 11, 96 11:40:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 186 Lines: 11 > > Hello, Hello. > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > Christmas vacation ...? > > Lee. > Nope, no one here at all, you are the only one. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 12:13:54 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612111207.MAA14769@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Is there ... WORMS? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:07:49 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 287 Lines: 14 Asking a question usualy seems to generate replies and thus conversation, so, at great personal risk I will ask a question, thus also aiding in the quest to find out how many are actualy alive. here goes... Is anyone actualy working on SAMworms? Phew, that was dangerous. C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 12:18:23 1996 Subject: Re: SOS more stuff MODE To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:16:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199612101411.OAA11870@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 10, 96 02:11:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Dec11.121734+0000_gmt.46930-1278+105@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 14 > Bitmaps on the other hand, as is found on the Amiga, the information is > stored in a number of different bit planes, The colour of the first pixel > is stored in the first bit of each plane, each plane being stored in a > different place in memory. The colour of the second pixel is determined by > the 2nd bit on each plane. Ahhhh... you're mixing up Bitmaps with Bitplanes. So the two modes you want are: Bitplanes Chunky Pixelmap / Bitmaps. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 12:39:23 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:34:21 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Who's doing what? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <227B46359E2@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 510 Lines: 16 Hello, More questions I'm afriad! I'm just wondering who is doing what at the minute for teh original SAM? What software/hardware projects are in tht epipeline (if any?) and when are they do to be completed. And, since I haven't been hom for ages and so still have to catch up on my FRED back issues - is there a BIG christmas release this year, or is there any Christams release? Or what? Thanks for anyobdy who helps me out here. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 12:51:42 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Is there ... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:50:31 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee Willis" at Dec 11, 96 11:40:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 397 Lines: 12 > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > Christmas vacation ...? > When I was younger I used to have this weird opinion that I was the only person in the world who was real and thought for themself, and that everyone was an actor, and theat all used to get together when I was in bed to decide which of them I was going to bump into in the street the next day... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 13:03:32 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:01:40 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Is there ... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <2281CAF78EB@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 637 Lines: 20 > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > > Christmas vacation ...? > > > > When I was younger I used to have this weird opinion > that I was the only person in the world who was real > and thought for themself, and that everyone was an > actor, and theat all used to get together when I was > in bed to decide which of them I was going to bump > into in the street the next day... When I was younger, I used to think that the Sixties really WERE in black and white and that only America had invented colour at that time. > > > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 13:19:28 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612111314.NAA15276@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: younger To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:14:35 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 717 Lines: 18 >> Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the >> Christmas vacation ...? >> >When I was younger I used to have this weird opinion >that I was the only person in the world who was real >and thought for themself, and that everyone was an >actor, and theat all used to get together when I was >in bed to decide which of them I was going to bump >into in the street the next day... Funny, I always figured that it was made of pink slime that formed the shapes and people around me. I worked this simple fact out as when I span around on the spot as fast as I could, the whole world started to go pink! -the slime obviously could not keep up with my rapidly changing viewing direction. C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 13:20:31 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:23:57 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Is there ... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <40C6D4976FC@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 266 Lines: 13 > > Hello, > > > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > > Christmas vacation ...? I'm still here! But not for too much longer. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XX X X XXX Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 13:27:11 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:28:54 GMT Subject: Re: younger Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <314EF0161EE@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 587 Lines: 11 > >When I was younger I used to have this weird opinion > >that I was the only person in the world who was real > >and thought for themself, and that everyone was an > >actor, and theat all used to get together when I was > >in bed to decide which of them I was going to bump > >into in the street the next day... Me too! I used to think I was like a little test type human and they were doing tests on me by making my life generally shit. I used to think they communicated through thoughts. *sobs* Now I know the truth, its worse than that *sobs thoughtfully (if that's possible)* From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 13:31:36 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:32:27 GMT Subject: Re: Is there ... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <314FE837FD6@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 613 Lines: 15 > > > Hello, > > > > > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > > > Christmas vacation ...? > > I'm still here! But not for too much longer. I'm here too! Not that I count or anything. Ahem (T.M. Your Sinclair's Ahems Ltd.) Actually I live near my university so I should be in and out every now and then throughout the Christmas holidays, mailing David Ledbury, telling him how wonderful Blitz is (cos it really is incredible!) and mailing Bob, trying to convince him to let me do the... Well, maybe Bob will mail me and tell me if I have permission or not, eh Bob? :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 13:43:42 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:45:04 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: younger Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <40CC79C5E0E@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 746 Lines: 21 > > >When I was younger I used to have this weird opinion > > >that I was the only person in the world who was real > > >and thought for themself, and that everyone was an > > >actor, and theat all used to get together when I was > > >in bed to decide which of them I was going to bump > > >into in the street the next day... > > Me too! I used to think I was like a little test type human and they > were doing tests on me by making my life generally shit. I used to > think they communicated through thoughts. *sobs* Now I know the > truth, its worse than that *sobs thoughtfully (if that's possible)* Erk! Me too, as well, actually.. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XX X X XXX Days and counting.. Then I'm HOME! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 15:54:04 1996 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:54:58 +0000 Subject: Re: younger Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 376 Lines: 8 > Me too! I used to think I was like a little test type human and they > were doing tests on me by making my life generally shit. I used to > think they communicated through thoughts. *sobs* Now I know the > truth, its worse than that *sobs thoughtfully (if that's possible)* So it wasn't just me then! __ |_)ave |-|ooper From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 16:20:31 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:14:22 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Multitasking Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <22B5E8A46A1@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 689 Lines: 17 Spooky! I'm staring a SAM thread for today! Right, I've just been using mutitasking on Windows 3.x and thought that, if we do this sort of thing on SAMSon, why don't we have a screen where we can decied how much processor time to giev to each application - in terms of percentage? It means that, if you've got one progrma you want running at 100% then you can do that, and halt the others, but if you want them all running equally then you can do that - or give on porogram priority over processor time. I don't know if it's been done before, but I thought it might be an idea. Ready to be shot down now...! Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 16:47:08 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:46:57 GMT Subject: Re: Multitasking Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <3183BDF1087@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 896 Lines: 20 > Spooky! I'm staring a SAM thread for today! > > Right, I've just been using mutitasking on Windows 3.x and thought > that, if we do this sort of thing on SAMSon, why don't we have a > screen where we can decied how much processor time to giev to each > application - in terms of percentage? It means that, if you've got > one progrma you want running at 100% then you can do that, and halt > the others, but if you want them all running equally then you can do > that - or give on porogram priority over processor time. > > I don't know if it's been done before, but I thought it might be an > idea. > > Ready to be shot down now...! > > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) Windows 95 has a similar thing, though I don't really use it. Its one for the techies I guess, though most of them have probably gone home to build a few Unix systems or whatever techies do to relax. From imc Wed Dec 11 16:48:24 1996 Subject: Re: Multitasking To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:48:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <22B5E8A46A1@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> from "Johnna Teare" at Dec 11, 96 04:14:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 151 Lines: 6 On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:14:22 GMT+0, Johnna Teare said: > Right, I've just been using mutitasking on Windows 3.x Um, didn't know it had any. :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 16:50:05 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:46:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Multitasking In-Reply-To: <3183BDF1087@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Message-Id: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1272 Lines: 34 On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Gavin Smith wrote: ;>> Spooky! I'm staring a SAM thread for today! ;>> ;>> Right, I've just been using mutitasking on Windows 3.x and thought ;>> that, if we do this sort of thing on SAMSon, why don't we have a ;>> screen where we can decied how much processor time to giev to each ;>> application - in terms of percentage? It means that, if you've got ;>> one progrma you want running at 100% then you can do that, and halt ;>> the others, but if you want them all running equally then you can do ;>> that - or give on porogram priority over processor time. ;>> ;>> I don't know if it's been done before, but I thought it might be an ;>> idea. ;>> ;>> Ready to be shot down now...! ;>> ;>> Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) ;> ;>Windows 95 has a similar thing, though I don't really use it. Its one ;>for the techies I guess, though most of them have probably gone home ;>to build a few Unix systems or whatever techies do to relax. ;> I'm sorry, but anyone who enjoys building (or using) Unix wouldn't go within 3 miles of a copy of Shitdos '95 if they could help it ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 17:02:16 1996 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:57:15 GMT Subject: Re: Multitasking Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <31867A01C21@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 645 Lines: 15 > I'm sorry, but anyone who enjoys building (or using) Unix wouldn't go > within 3 miles of a copy of Shitdos '95 if they could help it ... > > Lee. > > > How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? > None, they just make darkness the industry standard! I didn't say they would! Though, don't you just think you are jumping on the bandwagon of "something is popular, I must hate it and be cool"? Or do you actually know the system? You can't argue that Windows NT4 isn't a vast improvement though can you?!? You will probably try anyway *grins* Even though you probably haven't used it... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 17:21:46 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:04:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Multitasking In-Reply-To: <31867A01C21@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Message-Id: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1834 Lines: 45 On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Gavin Smith wrote: ;>> I'm sorry, but anyone who enjoys building (or using) Unix wouldn't go ;>> within 3 miles of a copy of Shitdos '95 if they could help it ... ;>> ;>> Lee. ;>> ;>> ;>> How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? ;>> None, they just make darkness the industry standard! ;> ;>I didn't say they would! Though, don't you just think you are jumping ;>on the bandwagon of "something is popular, I must hate it and be ;>cool"? Nope, not at all. I don't like Windows because it doesn't make the best of the machine, or even close to it. Os/2 is much better, and the Unix system is even better still. Most people who have used or do use Unix (Like myself),and X-Windows systems appreciate who a nice system can work, and whenever I use Windows (Any version, I've used all of them from 2.x up ..) I just end up getting frustrated with it being naff ... ;>Or do you actually know the system? You can't argue that Windows NT4 ;>isn't a vast improvement though can you?!? You will probably try ;>anyway *grins* Even though you probably haven't used it... ;> Erm, I haven't actually used it so I _wouldn't_ comment on that ... Vast improvement on what btw ? Oh, and I wouldn't say Windows '95 is popular as such. I hardly know anyone whose upgraded to it. The only people I know with it are those who've bought new Pentiums recently, and you can't define a product as popular because people are made to use it as the OS their computer is shipped with ... If I'm wrong about Windows '95's popularity then I'll conceed this point, but I don't know anyone personally that chooses to use it ... Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 21:34:29 1996 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:32:20 -0500 From: Nev Young <106166.1560@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: younger To: "INTERNET:sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Message-Id: <199612111632_MC1-CF4-25FB@compuserve.com> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 802 Lines: 19 Message text written by INTERNET:sam-users@nvg.unit.no >> > >When I was younger I used to have this weird opinion > > >that I was the only person in the world who was real > > >and thought for themself, and that everyone was an > > >actor, and theat all used to get together when I was > > >in bed to decide which of them I was going to bump > > >into in the street the next day... > > Me too! I used to think I was like a little test type human and they > were doing tests on me by making my life generally shit. I used to > think they communicated through thoughts. *sobs* Now I know the > truth, its worse than that *sobs thoughtfully (if that's possible)* < When I was younger I used to create little test type humans and do strange tests on them and generally make their lives shit. God. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 22:09:59 1996 Message-Id: <199612112211.WAA22010@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Ftn-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Shoot you down. BANG BANG! Date: 11 Dec 1996 22:06:03 Organization: A cold bedroom References: <22B5E8A46A1@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2239 Lines: 69 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In a message of 11 Dec 96 Johnna Teare wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi Johnna, JT> Right, I've just been using mutitasking on Windows 3.x and thought Have microsloth actually got proper multitasking now then? JT> that, if we do this sort of thing on SAMSon, why don't we have a JT> screen where we can decied how much processor time to giev to each JT> application - in terms of percentage? It means that, if you've got one JT> progrma you want running at 100% then you can do that, and halt the JT> others, but if you want them all running equally then you can do that - JT> or give on porogram priority over processor time. You mean like a "Change task priority" window... Why not check out the Amiga O/S for a proper multitasking environment. Though I don't mean your A500.. (fnar!) ;) JT> I don't know if it's been done before, but I thought it might be an JT> idea. Of course it has! Did you think you'd invented it then? :) I invented video recorders when I was a kid. Well, I thought I'd had an original idea, until I found out they were using them way back in the 1940's (and I wasn't around then.. honest!:)). JT> Ready to be shot down now...! Bang Bang! :) I've only just re-materialised after taking a break from the list. I'm going to invite flames and nasty remarks now, by asking a question... What's been going on around here in the last two/three weeks? Is everything going to plan (and Bob's deadlines) regarding the development of all the new gear? BTW, I think SAMSON should adopt the old Plus D syntax for certain commands within BASIC and the CLI. How about using: ERASE D1 "oldname" TO "newname" CAT 1 LOAD d1 "filename" LOAD Pn and other advanced keywords? We could even replace BOOT with a nifty CALL 491529. Even better, we could get rid of wasteful PROCedures and return to using GOTO and GOSUB more. Only lazy programmers use these anyway. Will SAMSON be available as a tape only option? I think that we should consider the potential market for a tape based machine. Even better, we could look at wafadrives and microdrives. SAMSON Gamestar, we could call it. GD&RFC :) Byeeee Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 11 23:42:29 1996 Message-Id: <9612112341.AA18984@mars.cableol.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 23:47:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Is there ... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 543 Lines: 22 > Hello, > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > Christmas vacation ...? > > Lee. > > > How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? > None, they just make darkness the industry standard! > > > Well, I'm here but i've never got anything to say. Neil Maynard +-------------------------------+ |Neil Maynard | |E-Mail: mne2@cableol.co.uk | +-------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 08:24:51 1996 Message-Id: <199612120822.JAA22076@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Is there ... Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 09:17:13 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 517 Lines: 19 > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: Is there ... > Datum: donderdag, december 12, 1996 12:47 > > > Hello, > > > > Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the > > Christmas vacation ...? > > > > Lee. > > What is this? vacation thingie? As far as I know I have to work (and it does not include the Sam) right until 24th Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman ---. From imc Thu Dec 12 11:57:48 1996 Subject: Re: Multitasking To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:57:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Lee Willis" at Dec 11, 96 05:04:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 642 Lines: 18 On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:04:39 +0000 (GMT), Lee Willis said: > Most people who have used or do use Unix (Like > myself),and X-Windows systems appreciate who a nice system can work, ^^^^^^^^^ Incidentally, the second paragraph of the man page on X says: The X Consortium requests that the following names be used when referring to this software: X X Window System X Version 11 X Window System, Version 11 X11 Just thought you'd like to know... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 11:59:43 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:48:39 GMT+0 Subject: Happy Birthday Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <26EF6A25C68@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 209 Lines: 7 Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me, happy birthday dear Johnna...(deep breath)...HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME! Erm..thank you. (he bows) Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 12:03:54 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:01:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Lee Willis To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Multitasking In-Reply-To: <9612121157.AA05279@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> Message-Id: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 752 Lines: 25 On Thu, 12 Dec 1996 Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote: ;>On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:04:39 +0000 (GMT), Lee Willis said: ;>> myself),and X-Windows systems appreciate who a nice system can work, ;> ^^^^^^^^^ ;>Incidentally, the second paragraph of the man page on X says: ;> ;> The X Consortium requests that the following names be used ;> when referring to this software: ;> ;> X Window System ;> ;>Just thought you'd like to know... ;> X-Windows systems is surely near as damn it to X Window System ..... Just a lot of them with more windows ... ;) Lee. How many Microsoft employees does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they just make darkness the industry standard! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 13:15:25 1996 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:13:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS Multitasking methods In-Reply-To: <199612121159.LAA18580@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2341 Lines: 60 On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Stephen Harding wrote: > >On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:14:22 GMT+0, Johnna Teare said: > >> Right, I've just been using mutitasking on Windows 3.x > > > >Um, didn't know it had any. :-) > >imc > > Right, before we can worry about having a window to allocate time, how > about we decide how the processor will mutitask anyway? > As I see it there are 2 common ways at the mo. > > Windows 3.1 (simplified): [snipped - the easiest to implememnt] > Windows NT/95 : [snipped - the best to implement] > Why don't we combine the two? > Each applcation is given a time slice, but if they finish doing what they > want to do before their turn is up, they give control to the next > applcation, reseting the time slice time. i.e. a round robin > with an opt out. Yes.. Even better.. > We could allocate different speeds to the different applications by simply > changing their relative time slices. It would NOT be possible to treat > this as a percentage internaly but this sort of representation would be > fine for your window. We would tie up one of our 'generate an interupt in > N nanosecs' interupt generators. The way I see it, you can only have a NMI-type interrupt generator (timer/counter type chip connected to the NMI pin of the Z80/Z380) to do the multitasking. If you had it with normal INT, the programmer only has to do a DI for the entire length of the program to stop the entire system working properly... Then again, maybe the INT approach is the better way if you want applications to have the entire system (then why bother programming the program in the GUI system?) A better approach would be to have NMI with a software switch that would could stop the NMI interrupting (or turn the NMI generator off) the cpu within BASIC when the GUI isn't needed.. > It would also be a good idea to give the applications the power to add > their own interupts, especialy for sound generation. Yes.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 13:53:31 1996 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:00:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE *giggle* Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2497 Lines: 69 unsubscripe sam-users c92js1@dmu.ac.uk... :) Only kidding.. I really do know how unsubscribe from the list over the chrimbo hols... Honest... It's not because I want to, it's because I have too... :( Our system engineers get all nasty if our mailboxes get too full. But I'll probably be in every now and again to read personal mail... So, I'll be unsubscribing tomorrow sometime... Anyway, here's my plan for the hols:- SMIDIP / SMIDIT =============== Erm.. Yeah.. you already know about these... XAP === My Xenoic Application Platform that will be similar to CP/M so I have something I can wite SMIDIT easily with... (It'll have to do until someone writes a nice thing like GUI..) SAM Xenoa ========= I'll actually start building my Web pages for the Sam... All the ideas are finally coming together Small C ======= I'm going to "rewrite" the Small C (for CP/M / Pro-DOS) libraries so they can interface with XAP nicely... HiTech C ======== I've stumbled across a CP/M version of the HiTech C compiler. Looking at the documentation it looks like a full Ansi C implementation which is cool! (Is it the same one Nev's got?) The trouble is that it's for CP/M-80 and not CP/M 2.2 which Pro-DOS is based on. Since I don't know my CP/M history very well, are they compatible at all? It seems to work so far and dosn't complain much.. I've also downloaded a CP/M-80 emulator for the PC so I'll see if I can get it working either one! It'll be nice writing almost-ANSI C applications for the SAM! :) Pro-DOS ======= With Pro-DOS there's a "samread" program to read SAM disks into the CP/M system. Does the counterpart "samwrite" exist anywhere for Pro-DOS? I think it's a bit stupid having to develope something on my SAM using Pro-DOS, save it to disk, transfer file to PC using a CP/M disk reader, save it to another MS-DOS format disk, then tranfer it BACK to the SAM on a SAM-format disk using Ke-Disk... Christmas ========= MERRY CHRISTMAS and have an extremely HAPPY NEW YEAR.... If I don't email again, I'll see you in 97 sometime - Let's make it the Year of the Sam! :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Don't take life so seriously, | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | you'll never survive it! | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | - (C) CamLoRTS 1996 | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 14:23:31 1996 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199612121422.OAA19214@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: The year of the SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:22:24 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 477 Lines: 14 I like that, 'The year of the SAM'! I will be saying that throughout the new year! Just in case anyone could care less I surpose I had better mention that I will be buggering off home on Monday. >I should be able to put a demo of SAMfighter up before christmas. please read that old comment as 'I should be able to put a demo of SAMfighter up before Easter'! ;o) I haven't played much with the (currently rubbish) sound this term, too buisy with new charcters and AI. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 15:04:33 1996 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:02:33 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961212100231_1853019914@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 538 Lines: 16 In a message dated 10/12/96 14:05:36, you write: >Here you go again. And here I ask again: WHAT RULES? > >imc EVERY language has to have RULES. English, French, C, Basic - they all have rules. And what I am trying to do is cut down on the number of 'exceptions to the rules' that SAM Basic has. That way it is easier to learn. If you tell someone that parameters are seperated by a comma, that is one rule. If you then add "except it it is such and such" then you make life difficult because there are far more rules to learn. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 15:04:37 1996 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:02:38 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961212100237_2051406602@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 393 Lines: 13 In a message dated 10/12/96 14:37:12, you write: >For example: try the one to load a particular sector. Well actually, even >the one in SamDOS works (after a fashion), or so it seems. Now pretend you >forgot to put a disk in. Instead of saying "You forgot to put the disk in" >it just silently waits forever until you put it in. > >imc Yes but that is not a bug, its a feature... Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 15:04:52 1996 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:02:39 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961212100238_33771787@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Is there ... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 165 Lines: 10 In a message dated 11/12/96 12:04:33, you write: >What vacation? > > -Frode Exactly, us workers don't get a month off - we must be doing something wrong... Bob. From imc Thu Dec 12 16:08:01 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:08:01 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961212100231_1853019914@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 12, 96 10:02:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 443 Lines: 13 On Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:02:33 -0500, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > >Here you go again. And here I ask again: WHAT RULES? > EVERY language has to have RULES. English, French, C, Basic - they all have > rules. > And what I am trying to do is cut down on the number of 'exceptions to the > rules' that SAM Basic has. I am trying to get you to tell me which rules you think have too many exceptions in SAM Basic. Yet again I have failed... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 12 16:45:54 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:48:57 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <427D9054A7A@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 487 Lines: 17 > >For example: try the one to load a particular sector. Well actually, even > >the one in SamDOS works (after a fashion), or so it seems. Now pretend you > >forgot to put a disk in. Instead of saying "You forgot to put the disk in" > >it just silently waits forever until you put it in. > > > >imc > > Yes but that is not a bug, its a feature... > *Collapses in a fit of laughter..* -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XX X X XXX Day and counting... Then I'm HOME! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 08:01:05 1996 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:59:50 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612130759.AA04156@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Is there ... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 219 Lines: 12 > In a message dated 11/12/96 12:04:33, you write: > > >What vacation? > > > > -Frode > > Exactly, us workers don't get a month off - we must be doing something > wrong... How about getting back to school? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 08:34:17 1996 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:35:47 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Bye! See you soon. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <437A0E0766D@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 256 Lines: 12 Warghhh!! This is it! I'm going home. I'll be unsubscribing in a second, so I'll speak to you all next year. :) :) :) :) :) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk XXX X X X X Days.. BLAST OFF! I'm outta here. XXX See you next year! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 08:41:44 1996 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:39:00 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612130839.AA04170@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1643 Lines: 55 > In a message dated 10/12/96 14:05:36, you write: > > >Here you go again. And here I ask again: WHAT RULES? > > > >imc > > EVERY language has to have RULES. English, French, C, Basic - they all have > rules. What do you mean? Rules? In English? ;-) > > And what I am trying to do is cut down on the number of 'exceptions to the > rules' that SAM Basic has. That way it is easier to learn. If you tell > someone that parameters are seperated by a comma, that is one rule. If you > then add "except it it is such and such" then you make life difficult because > there are far more rules to learn. Actually, this is both true and not so true. It depends on the language. C is a formalised language, hence it has only one way of passing parameters (as such). However, BASIC is not such a language. It is based on natural english which we all know is not particulary formalised. An example is: PRINT AT 1,1;PEN 5;"Test" How would you formalise this? PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,"Test"? Obviously, this will not work unless you have an interpreter with some extraordinary logic. Actually, there is a logic to the former as you can view the items separated by ';' as "sub-commands" only valid inside the ':'-scope. You also mentioned the LOAD command. To conform with your logic, this would have to be something like: LOAD DEVICE d5; PATH "/usr/local"; "foo.bar" Where you could for simplicity say: LOAD DEVICE d5; "/usr/local/foo.bar" I could agree on this one, but not on LOAD d5;"/usr/local/foo.bar" Though, I believe that LOAD "d5:/usr/local/foo.bar" is more elegant (alt. LOAD "d5://usr/local/foo.bar"). -Frode From imc Fri Dec 13 11:18:59 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:18:59 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612130839.AA04170@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Dec 13, 96 09:39:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1480 Lines: 49 On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:39:00 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > An example is: > > PRINT AT 1,1;PEN 5;"Test" > > How would you formalise this? printcmd ::= 'PRINT' items items ::= [item] [separator items] item ::= 'AT' num_expr ',' num_expr -> move cursor to coordinates | 'PEN' num_expr -> make temporary colour change (etc) | num_expr -> print numeric value | string_expr -> print string value separator::= ';' -> do nothing | ',' -> move to next tab | ''' -> move to next line > PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,"Test"? > Obviously, this will not work unless you have an interpreter with some > extraordinary logic. Depends what you want it to do. It can be interpreted as above, in which case "Test" will be printed two tab stops to the right of position 1,1. Or you could amend the 'AT' and 'PEN' lines above by adding "ignore next separator" so that "Test" would appear at 1,1. No problem with either of those. > You also mentioned the LOAD command. To conform with your logic, > this would have to be something like: > LOAD DEVICE d5; PATH "/usr/local"; "foo.bar" I'd prefer LOAD DEVICE "d5"; PATH "/usr/local"; "foo.bar" although > LOAD "d5:/usr/local/foo.bar" obviously means less typing and is perfectly understandable to anyone with a brain. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 11:57:55 1996 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:56:02 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612131156.AA04648@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1957 Lines: 69 > > On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:39:00 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > > An example is: > > > > PRINT AT 1,1;PEN 5;"Test" > > > > How would you formalise this? > > printcmd ::= 'PRINT' items > > items ::= [item] [separator items] > > item ::= 'AT' num_expr ',' num_expr -> move cursor to coordinates > | 'PEN' num_expr -> make temporary colour change > (etc) > | num_expr -> print numeric value > | string_expr -> print string value > > separator::= ';' -> do nothing > | ',' -> move to next tab > | ''' -> move to next line This was an exercise for Bob: ;-) > > > PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,"Test"? > > > Obviously, this will not work unless you have an interpreter with some > > extraordinary logic. > > Depends what you want it to do. It can be interpreted as above, in which > case "Test" will be printed two tab stops to the right of position 1,1. > Or you could amend the 'AT' and 'PEN' lines above by adding "ignore next > separator" so that "Test" would appear at 1,1. No problem with either of > those. So, if you implement 'ignore next separator', you could then have: PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,"TEST" == PRINT AT 1'1'PEN 5'"TEST" :) And if you acutally want to have it printed two tab stops to the right of position 1,1, you have to say: PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,,,"TEST" Wasn't that nice syntax. :) > > You also mentioned the LOAD command. To conform with your logic, > > this would have to be something like: > > > LOAD DEVICE d5; PATH "/usr/local"; "foo.bar" > > I'd prefer > > LOAD DEVICE "d5"; PATH "/usr/local"; "foo.bar" Well, a matter of definition. :) > > although > > > LOAD "d5:/usr/local/foo.bar" > > obviously means less typing and is perfectly understandable to anyone > with a brain. Indeed. -Frode From imc Fri Dec 13 12:03:26 1996 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:03:26 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612131156.AA04648@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Dec 13, 96 12:56:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 998 Lines: 27 On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:56:02 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > > Depends what you want it to do. It can be interpreted as above, in which > > case "Test" will be printed two tab stops to the right of position 1,1. > > Or you could amend the 'AT' and 'PEN' lines above by adding "ignore next > > separator" so that "Test" would appear at 1,1. No problem with either of > > those. > So, if you implement 'ignore next separator', you could then have: > PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,"TEST" == PRINT AT 1'1'PEN 5'"TEST" :) Not quite. The thing between the to coordinates must still be a comma. > And if you acutally want to have it printed two tab stops to the right > of position 1,1, you have to say: > PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,,,"TEST" Indeed. > Wasn't that nice syntax. :) It's a trade-off. You have a choice of whether PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,"TEST" prints it two tab stops to the right. If you decide that it doesn't then you need extra syntax to get the two tab stops. Sounds fair enough to me. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 12:31:57 1996 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 13:30:32 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612131230.AA04709@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 881 Lines: 27 > > So, if you implement 'ignore next separator', you could then have: > > > PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,"TEST" == PRINT AT 1'1'PEN 5'"TEST" :) > > Not quite. The thing between the to coordinates must still be a comma. Close enough. > > And if you acutally want to have it printed two tab stops to the right > > of position 1,1, you have to say: > > > PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,,,"TEST" > > Indeed. > > > Wasn't that nice syntax. :) > > It's a trade-off. You have a choice of whether PRINT AT 1,1,PEN 5,"TEST" > prints it two tab stops to the right. If you decide that it doesn't then > you need extra syntax to get the two tab stops. Sounds fair enough to me. I know. My point was that BASIC does not have a particulary nice syntax as it is not based on a formal way of passing parameters. That's why different types of parameters are seperated by different symbols. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 14:19:47 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:12:52 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <25955251EEA@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 296 Lines: 12 On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:39:00 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > An example is: > > PRINT AT 1,1;PEN 5;"Test" > > How would you formalise this? Personally, I think SAM Basic is fab and that we shouldn't be fiddling with it. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 14:53:09 1996 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:50:01 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961213095000_2085107203@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Multitasking Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 583 Lines: 18 In a message dated 11/12/96 16:49:00, you write: >;>Windows 95 has a similar thing, though I don't really use it. Its one >;>for the techies I guess, though most of them have probably gone home >;>to build a few Unix systems or whatever techies do to relax. >;> > >I'm sorry, but anyone who enjoys building (or using) Unix wouldn't go >within 3 miles of a copy of Shitdos '95 if they could help it ... > >Lee. And neither would anyone who is used to Windows 3.1 or DOS. But then Mr Gates turns round and say's "hard luck - change of you don't get support". Crap life... Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 14:53:20 1996 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:50:07 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961213095006_369462404@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: younger Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 279 Lines: 10 In a message dated 11/12/96 21:34:53, you write: >When I was younger I used to create little test type humans and do >strange tests on them and generally make their lives shit. > >God. Excuse me Son, Who made the Heaven and the Earth and all the things thereof? God the Dad From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 14:53:20 1996 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:50:09 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961213095008_574519556@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Is there ... Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 247 Lines: 12 In a message dated 11/12/96 23:48:00, you write: >> Hello, >> >> Is there anyone still around or has everyone retreated for the >> Christmas vacation ...? >> >> Lee. Chance would be a fine thing, we ain't all students you know. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 14:53:20 1996 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:50:12 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961213095007_436571268@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Shoot you down. BANG BANG! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1442 Lines: 55 In a message dated 11/12/96 22:10:22, you write: >Bang Bang! :) > >I've only just re-materialised after taking a break from the list. I'm >going to invite flames and nasty remarks now, by asking a question... > >What's been going on around here in the last two/three weeks? > >Is everything going to plan (and Bob's deadlines) regarding the development >of all the new gear? No! Way bloody behind - but then I've be getting the December FORMAT done and suffering a bad hard drive/virus infection on my 586, so I've not had time. > >BTW, I think SAMSON should adopt the old Plus D syntax for certain commands >within BASIC and the CLI. > >How about using: ERASE D1 "oldname" TO "newname" > CAT 1 > LOAD d1 "filename" > LOAD Pn > >and other advanced keywords? Good idea. > >We could even replace BOOT with a nifty CALL 491529. > Talking my way now... >Even better, we could get rid of wasteful PROCedures and return to using >GOTO and GOSUB more. Only lazy programmers use these anyway. Never thought of that, will coma back to you. > >Will SAMSON be available as a tape only option? I think that we should >consider the potential market for a tape based machine. Even better, we >could look at wafadrives and microdrives. Tape, no. But microdrives - well next time I speak to Sir C, I will ask him. > >SAMSON Gamestar, we could call it. > > >GD&RFC :) > >Byeeee > >Dave Whitmore Bob. From imc Fri Dec 13 19:28:20 1996 Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:28:20 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612082230.WAA07080@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 8, 96 10:30:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 242 Lines: 8 On Sun, 8 Dec 1996 22:30:43 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > I personaly think that a fileNAME should provide a NAME for your file, > my NAME does not point out that I am a white human male. It gives a pretty good guess though... imc From imc Fri Dec 13 19:31:53 1996 Subject: Re: SOS compiled BASIC To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:31:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <96Dec9.234742+0000_gmt.46930-1277+69@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Dec 9, 96 08:58:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 323 Lines: 9 On Mon, 9 Dec 1996 20:58:13 +0000 (GMT), Simon Cooke said: > > What do you mean by a 'just in time compiler'? > It's something that takes code, interprets it into machine code, and from > then on, whenever that code needs to be executed, it runs the interpreted > version instead. Oh, an incremental compiler. :-) imc From imc Fri Dec 13 19:41:37 1996 Subject: Re: SOS file types To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:41:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Dec 10, 96 02:18:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 975 Lines: 21 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:18:54 +0000 (GMT), Justin Skists said: > > > You mean I've got to waste half the memory to decode things still? I'm > > > only doing it this way to test the algolrithms... > > What's that in English? > Load, say, 100K to address 64k > Program decodes the file to a nice simple uncompressed format to addr 164k > Now.. If I could load in the file one byte at the time and decode it that > way I could have 400K file instead of 200K without overwriting anything! To be honest it's a while since I tested the relevant hook codes. I think they may work in MasterDOS but not in SamDOS. The easiest thing is to load the whole thing in from BASIC. Unfortunately that does mean less memory for your program. Otherwise you have to write a whole load of DOS functions yourself and load it in one sector at a time. I wrote a significant portion of a DOS for "less" in order to load files 16K at a time and the code is rather bloated as a result. imc From imc Fri Dec 13 19:42:18 1996 Subject: Re: SYNCYTIUM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:42:18 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612101459.OAA11954@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 10, 96 02:59:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 336 Lines: 12 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:59:46 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > But will you be happy letting the next version sit on the SAMSON > ROM (equivilent)? Depends what it's worth. :-) > i.e. can we plan developing an new, improved one from it (i.e. drum beats > etc.) Find out what it does before you start trying to extend it!... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 13 19:45:49 1996 Message-Id: <199612131946.TAA13425@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Ftn-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Shoot you down. BANG BANG! Date: 13 Dec 1996 19:39:30 Organization: CHAOS ENGINE BBS References: <961213095007_436571268@emout08.mail.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2738 Lines: 73 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In a message of 13 Dec 96 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi Bob, >> Is everything going to plan (and Bob's deadlines) regarding the >> development of all the new gear? Bac> No! Way bloody behind - but then I've be getting the December FORMAT Tsk.. and there was me thinking that everything would be done and polished. Oh well.. :-) Bac> done and suffering a bad hard drive/virus infection on my 586, so I've Bac> not had time. Argh! The dreaded virus. I had one on the Amiga not too long ago. It was a nasty link virus that wanted to attach itself to every executable. Luckily, I caught it, and I think it was past its use-by date anyway; Happy New Year Virus 1996. :) >> CAT 1 >> LOAD d1 "filename" >> LOAD Pn >> and other advanced keywords? Bac> Good idea. How did I know I'd have at least one sensible supporter in here. :) >> We could even replace BOOT with a nifty CALL 491529. Bac> Talking my way now... I thought so. Maybe the CALL n was too much. A simple RUN would be better. :) >> Even better, we could get rid of wasteful PROCedures and return to using >> GOTO and GOSUB more. Only lazy programmers use these anyway. Bac> Never thought of that, will coma back to you. Joking aside. Has anyone volunteered to write the BASIC or DOS updates yet? Has anyone mentioned anything about the ideas to Bruce or Andy at all? I guess SAMSON people might favour keeping all these ideas to themselves for the time being, but I'll bet there are some other clever peeps who could be brought in. Ones who either missed out on SAM, or ones who didn't take the 8-bit SAM seriously when it was released (due to impending 16-bit dominance of the time). Any ideas, anyone? On another subject.. Derek Morgan has finally sorted his modem and he's started using it with his SAM. Though the cable wiring wasn't /exactly/ like Nev suggested, after a little while he managed to sort it out. I think Simon had a tinker with his interface and he may have changed something which possibly confused things regarding the wiring. Anyway, he's sorted it out now. I set up the BBS again and let him have a go. It's a shame that he's only just got around to doing comms now that Dalmation has closed. There are plenty of other BBS's he can try, but none of them support SAM. I'd always wished that someone else would open another SAM BBS, but no one seems interested. I closed my own BBS because it was getting fewer calls and most of the regular callers (and myself) had got internet access. If an updated Comm'ix or a finished Termite (how's it going Simon?) comes along, then I'll open it again for sure. Bye, Dave Whitmore From imc Fri Dec 13 19:50:18 1996 Subject: Re: SOS features of Rexx? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:50:18 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612101527.PAA12061@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Dec 10, 96 03:27:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1332 Lines: 32 On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:27:51 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > I challenge you to list all of Rexx'es best (scavenable) features. I don't know what a "scavenable" feature is, but if you are going to try sticking them in BASIC then you are bound to lose. How about: 1. Very few reserved words. I can have a variable called 'if' if I like, or name my variables the same as built-in functions. Sam BASIC has a list of almost 200 words that I can't type, and it gets irritating sometimes. On one occasion the first three names I tried for a variable turned out to be keywords. 2. Logical control flow structures; do/end;if/then/else;select/end, etc. They don't depend on all being on one line so there's no long/short IF problems. 3. If you don't like line numbers, that's OK. Rexx doesn't have line numbers. *Don't* think of removing the line numbers from Sam BASIC because BASIC ceases to be BASIC at the point at which you remove the line numbers. 4. Procedures that can return results (functions and procedures are roughly the same). 5. Simple command passing so that you can execute a CLI command (depending on your favourite CLI - it might even be an editor CLI command). 6. 'say x y z' instead of 'PRINT x;" ";y;" ";z' imc (that's all for now) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 14 14:26:03 1996 Message-Id: <199612141411.PAA06910@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 15:11:33 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 568 Lines: 21 ---------- > Van: Johnna Teare > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Happy Birthday > Datum: zaterdag, december 14, 1996 12:48 > Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear > Johnna...(deep breath)...HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU! Congratulations are in order here methinks! > "Thank God It's Christmas!" Christmas is still 6 (or 7?) workings days away for me. Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 14 21:37:14 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199612141640.QAA08382@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS features of Rexx? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 16:40:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612131950.AA08181@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Dec 13, 96 07:50:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2259 Lines: 72 > > On Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:27:51 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > > I challenge you to list all of Rexx'es best (scavenable) features. > > I don't know what a "scavenable" feature is, but if you are going to > try sticking them in BASIC then you are bound to lose. > Just an ideas we could borrow and incorporate to make the whole system better. > 2. Logical control flow structures; do/end;if/then/else;select/end, etc. > They don't depend on all being on one line so there's no long/short IF > problems. > DO & LOOP don't have to be on the same line, but, true, they need 16K fixing. I don't like typing END_IF. You are suggesting that we HAVE to type one? What does SELECT do in Rexx? > 3. If you don't like line numbers, that's OK. Rexx doesn't have line > numbers. *Don't* think of removing the line numbers from Sam BASIC > because BASIC ceases to be BASIC at the point at which you remove the > line numbers. > Too true. If you don't want line numbers go away and load up C, be forced to write programs in a silly wordprocessor/text editor if thats what you are into. CLI's rule (BASIC) O.K. > 4. Procedures that can return results (functions and procedures are > roughly the same). > This is the sort of idea we need! > 5. Simple command passing so that you can execute a CLI command (depending > on your favourite CLI - it might even be an editor CLI command). > If you want to use a DOS hook code directly, learn assembler! BASIC = CLI! > 6. 'say x y z' instead of 'PRINT x;" ";y;" ";z' > we could have a 2 streams to the screen in a similar way to the way we have 2 streams to the printer, one that expands out variables as if they were tokens... OPEN #9;"e" PRINT #9;"x y z" probably too much work though. > imc (that's all for now) > yes, lets bring procedures closer to functions. how about... 10 DEFPROC boo x: IF x then LET out$="BOOOOO!": ELSE LET out$="" 20 ENDPROC out$ 30 PRINT (PROC boo(1)); I surpose this would be hard to pars as you have to look at the ENDPROC to see if it returns anything. Any better ideas? Functions are not much use as they are, modifing them so they can be more like procedures would probably be more convenient than vice-versa. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 14 21:37:25 1996 From: SL Harding Message-Id: <199612141609.QAA07475@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS file descriptions To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 16:09:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9612131928.AA08036@boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk> from "Ian.Collier@comlab.ox.ac.uk" at Dec 13, 96 07:28:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2087 Lines: 53 > On Sun, 8 Dec 1996 22:30:43 +0000 (GMT), Stephen Harding said: > > I personaly think that a fileNAME should provide a NAME for your file, > > my NAME does not point out that I am a white human male. > > It gives a pretty good guess though... > imc > But (just to be stupid!) I would appear in a directory listing as... ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ ********************************************************************** 1) nine.iff 186 Amiga IFF file, len 73048 2) Stephen L Harding 9999 Human, 3) lice.gif 76 Compuserve GIF, len 2834 Without the handy file type, It could just be a picture of me as opposed to the real thing! ********************** SAMSON DOS version X ************************ No.Name *************** len.************ type ************************ ********************************************************************** 1) nine.iff 186 CODE, Start 675435 len 73048 2) Stephen L Harding 9999 CODE, Start 57655 len 999999 2) lice.gif 76 CODE, Start 57655 len 2834 See what I mean? Going off in a new direction.............................................. Thinking about this more, if we are allowing any (8bit) ASCII character to appear in a filename, we will need extra code to say that capital letters should be treated the same as lower case letters. If we don't then there will lots of compatibility problems, but mainly, it will be just plane annoying! Like UNIX file names are! i.e. If there is a file on my disk called Gordo, I want to be able to type... LOAD "gordo" LOAD "GORDO" LOAD "gOrDo" etc. Not being able to do this is by far the most annoying thing about UNIX. Numb. Waiting for someone to say that it is just cos I am using BASH or for someone to complain about my (miss)use of the term '(8-bit) ASCII' despite neither of these things being relevant to my point... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 15 14:27:56 1996 Message-Id: <199612151425.OAA00517@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Truely outrageous? Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 96 14:21:52 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 356 Lines: 11 Don't know if it's of interest for SAMSON software purposes, but I read in the newest issue of PCW that GEM - the Digital Research windows styled operating system - is now PD. In fact, the article I read gave the internet address to pick up the 200K source code file for the operating system - all written in C. Anyone fancy finding out more? David L From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 15 14:56:44 1996 Message-Id: <199612151455.OAA01011@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Re: SOS NOS and DOS Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 96 14:52:12 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 630 Lines: 19 On 1996/12/15 14:24:13 you wrote: >Personally, I think SAM Basic is fab and that we shouldn't be >fiddling with it. > >Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) >"Thank God It's Christmas!" > > And I also think re-inventing the wheel may be a great idea - but which century does anyone want this computer out? The whole point on the SRAM idea was for expandability - ie lets get something out that works then p!$$ about with the BASIC later on... the SAM add-on stage is - after all - basically a large scale dry-run for the stand alone computer, as well as a way for giving the remaining SAM users what they want... David L From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 15 14:59:35 1996 Message-Id: <199612151458.OAA01065@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE *giggle* Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 96 14:54:46 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 717 Lines: 21 On 1996/12/15 14:23:51 you wrote: >Pro-DOS >======= >With Pro-DOS there's a "samread" program to read SAM disks into the CP/M >system. Does the counterpart "samwrite" exist anywhere for Pro-DOS? I >think it's a bit stupid having to develope something on my SAM using >Pro-DOS, save it to disk, transfer file to PC using a CP/M disk reader, >save it to another MS-DOS format disk, then tranfer it BACK to the SAM on >a SAM-format disk using Ke-Disk... Seem to recall there was a proggy to do this on a back issue of the SAM Adventure Club mag - but best E-mail Dave Whitmore for more info. >If I don't email again, I'll see you in 97 sometime - Let's make it the >Year of the Sam! :) Hear, hear! David L. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 16 07:46:34 1996 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 08:45:36 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612160745.AA06102@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS file descriptions X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1180 Lines: 33 > Going off in a new direction.............................................. > Thinking about this more, if we are allowing any (8bit) ASCII character to ^^^^^^^^^^^ Here we go again... > appear in a filename, we will need extra code to say that capital letters > should be treated the same as lower case letters. If we don't then > there will lots of compatibility problems, but mainly, it will be just plane > annoying! Like UNIX file names are! Well, it will be plain annoying, just like DOS file names are. :) > > i.e. If there is a file on my disk called Gordo, I want to be able to type... > LOAD "gordo" > LOAD "GORDO" > LOAD "gOrDo" > etc. > > Not being able to do this is by far the most annoying thing about UNIX. Well, with file completion, this won't be a problem. Besides, case-insenitivity increases the name-space by a significant factor. :) > > Numb. > Waiting for someone to say that it is just cos I am using BASH or for > someone to complain about my (miss)use of the term '(8-bit) ASCII' despite > neither of these things being relevant to my point... Now, if you had used bash....errr ;) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 16 07:50:14 1996 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 08:49:18 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612160749.AA06111@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SOS features of Rexx? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 396 Lines: 23 > yes, lets bring procedures closer to functions. > how about... > > 10 DEFPROC boo x: 10 DEFPROC boo x RETURN out$: > IF x then LET out$="BOOOOO!": > ELSE LET out$="" 15 RETURN out$ 20 ENDPROC > 20 ENDPROC out$ > > > 30 PRINT (PROC boo(1)); > > I surpose this would be hard to pars as you have to look at the ENDPROC to > see if it returns anything. > Any better ideas? Hmm... -Frode From imc Mon Dec 16 14:08:15 1996 Subject: Re: SOS features of Rexx? To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 14:08:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199612141640.QAA08382@harrier.fen.bris.ac.uk> from "SL Harding" at Dec 14, 96 04:40:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2947 Lines: 98 On Sat, 14 Dec 1996 16:40:25 +0000 (GMT), SL Harding said: > > 2. Logical control flow structures; do/end;if/then/else;select/end, etc. > > They don't depend on all being on one line so there's no long/short IF > > problems. > DO & LOOP don't have to be on the same line, but, true, they need 16K fixing. > I don't like typing END_IF. You are suggesting that we HAVE to type one? > What does SELECT do in Rexx? Usually you only have one instruction in each branch of the IF, but the instruction doesn't have to be all on one line. if x=3 then say "X was 3!" else say "X is not 3";say "This always gets printed." If you want more than one instruction then you enclose them in a do-end. if x=3 then do x=4 y=5 end Select is an alternative way of writing long if-else if sequences. select when x=3 then call do_this when x=4 then f=3 ... otherwise z=frob() end > > 5. Simple command passing so that you can execute a CLI command (depending > > on your favourite CLI - it might even be an editor CLI command). > If you want to use a DOS hook code directly, learn assembler! > BASIC = CLI! BASIC \= CLI. CLI has nothing to do with invoking DOS hook codes directly. And in case you didn't get the last phrase above, I mean that you can address the commands to any program that has a CLI, so if your editor understands the command "move the cursor up" then you can write a Rexx program which does it. > > 6. 'say x y z' instead of 'PRINT x;" ";y;" ";z' > we could have a 2 streams to the screen in a similar way to the way we > have 2 streams to the printer, one that expands out variables as if they > were tokens... > OPEN #9;"e" > PRINT #9;"x y z" Yeuch, no!!! > yes, lets bring procedures closer to functions. > how about... > 10 DEFPROC boo x: > IF x then LET out$="BOOOOO!": > ELSE LET out$="" > 20 ENDPROC out$ > 30 PRINT (PROC boo(1)); There is the BBC BASIC way of doing it 10 PRINT FN boo(1): STOP 100 DEF FN boo(x) 110 LOCAL out$ 120 IF x THEN LET out$="BOOOOO!": ELSE LET out$="" 130 = out$ or there is the Rexx way of doing it. 10 PRINT boo(1): STOP 100 DEFPROC boo x 110 IF x THEN RETURN "BOOOOO!" 120 RETURN "" 130 ENDPROC /* perhaps */ Actually, line 10 of this program wouldn't work because it would just try to print the first element of the boo array. In fact it would probably be simpler to use mostly the first method but by using RETURN instead of '=' to make it clearer, and putting an extra ENDPROC on the end to make sure we know where the end of the procedure is. Current procedures would probably be improved by allowing RETURN so that I don't have to put GOTO (the line of the ENDPROC instruction) in. This syntax keeps functions and procedures separate so it's easier for the BASIC interpreter and also doesn't break current programs. You can still allow the "DEF FN a(x)=x+3" syntax (as BBC BASIC does) just by checking for the presence of the '=' sign. imc From imc Mon Dec 16 14:19:50 1996 Subject: LOCAL bug To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 14:19:50 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 491 Lines: 15 'Nother BASIC bug... Last night I typed the line 100 LOCAL xx() into a program and the syntax was accepted. Unfortunately, when I finished the program and ran it the silly thing said "Not Understood" at this line. Sam manual says words to the effect the the LOCAL instruction is used to specify any local variables for the procedure, including arrays. It says this twice and mentions arrays both times. Mind you it wouldn't be the first time the manual turned out to be wrong... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 16 16:23:13 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:09:49 GMT+0 Subject: Erm..a PC Q Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <2A345B31420@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 474 Lines: 16 Hello! It's a PC question really, but it's brought about by me wanting some SAM stuff... When downloading stuff from NVG, and sveing or opening files in some Windows applications, I keep getting the message: Application Error: Call To Undefined Dynalink. I think it stems from when I had a purge on erasing unwanted files in the Windows directory about a week ago. Any ideas about what I shold do? Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 16 16:28:37 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:17:37 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Erm..a PC Q - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 585 Lines: 21 > When downloading stuff from NVG, and sveing or opening > files in some Windows applications, I keep getting the message: > > Application Error: Call To Undefined Dynalink. Sounds like you've killed a DLL to me. > I think it stems from when I had a purge on erasing unwanted > files in the Windows directory about a week ago. Any ideas about > what I shold do? Yeah, don't do it again :) Sorry, but it's true - Windows is a bastard for this but it's getting better with some of the InstallShield stuff and uninstall utils. I suppose a undelete is out of the question? Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 08:29:03 1996 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:01:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Si Owen To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Erm..a PC Q In-Reply-To: <2A345B31420@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-Id: Organisation: Wordcraft International Ltd. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1208 Lines: 32 On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Johnna Teare wrote: > When downloading stuff from NVG, and sveing or opening files > in some Windows applications, I keep getting the message: > > Application Error: Call To Undefined Dynalink. The application you're using is linking to an old version of the DLL, so it loads correctly but one of the functions it's trying to call in it is not there. Sounds like you deleted the DLL it expects, but still have an older version of the same DLL in your PATH somewhere... Shame Windows doesn't tell you *which* DLL was being called :-( > I think it stems from when I had a purge on erasing unwanted files in > the Windows directory about a week ago. Any ideas about what I shold > do? Not much unless you can work out which DLL it is (tricky without some development tools). Si /------------------------------------+----------------------------------------\ | Si Owen | Home: si@obobo.demon.co.uk | | Wordcraft International Ltd, UK | Work: sowen@wordcraft.co.uk | | Fax: +44-1332-295525 | WWW: www.obobo.demon.co.uk | \------------------------------------+----------------------------------------/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 12:12:09 1996 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:09:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Quiet Here Init.... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 671 Lines: 19 Quiet here init :) I've got a cool idea, everyone unsub for a few days, I'll set up a script to send a few hundred 40k files to sam-users, then everyone can resub :) That'll teach all those people who thought they could go home for xmas and leave themselves subbed! Whadya all think ;) Tim ....@/ (This ideas in this email are entirely fictional, and should in no way be interpreted to be the true thoughts of Tim Paveley..) .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 12:25:04 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:22:04 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Quiet Here Init.... - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 357 Lines: 18 > Tim ....@/ Something I've been meaning to ask, What are the Origins of Sad Snail Productions? I have a mental picture thus: Unc: [types ...@/] What d'ya think of this? Manga: What's that meant to be? Unc: It's a snail! Manga: It's a pretty sad snail. Boom Boom! Dan. [Given that there is sod all going on on this list, I might as well ask...] From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 12:34:04 1996 From: Christian Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:27:14 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Erm..a PC Q X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Christian" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-Id: <2B79C5A6566@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 326 Lines: 9 About erasing stuff in your windows dir, since you're at Preston you should have a 'F:\windows3' directory in your area; the easy way to fix it it to select the 'reset windows' from the novell menus when you first log in. That should fix anything but it will reset any preferences you had set. Hope that helps Christian From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 12:36:12 1996 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:34:47 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612171234.AA09283@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Quiet Here Init.... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 492 Lines: 19 > Quiet here init :) That's just fine. > > I've got a cool idea, everyone unsub for a few days, I'll set up a script > to send a few hundred 40k files to sam-users, then everyone can resub :) Do you want a cool idea? Get your but over here and experience -40 degC. > > That'll teach all those people who thought they could go home for xmas > and leave themselves subbed! Well, the traffic is not that high anyway. Just as a curiousity. Novembers mailshots was worth 4.4Mb! -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 12:36:13 1996 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:34:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Sad Snail Productions - Origin Story. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1027 Lines: 27 Okay, I was a regular user (and now staff) of a BBS called Monochrome, on which a user can specify a 40char "nameline" that is added at the top of any of there messages. At some point on this, I noticed that @/ looked a bit like a snail, and started using it as my own little logo. At some point I started using something along the lines of "A lonely little ....@/ looking for love in the rain" (but 40chars obviously) as my nameline. Then we wrote EGGBuM. During an hour long session of trying to decide what to call EGGBuM, we also were trying to decide what we could call ourselves, the snail was remembered, and in a stroke of inspiration I came up with "Sad Snail Productions" and that was it really. It sort of signified how we felt at the time. :) TIm ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 12:56:05 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:53:07 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: What's coming from Santa's Sack? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 235 Lines: 16 Dear Santa, Pwease Pwease can I have for Cwithmas: A Meg A Two-up to go with it And a apple, a orange & bag of nuts. Danny (22 3/4) :) Anyone know if there are any more Megs knocking about or are they like Venus's Arms? Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 15:17:34 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 15:06:02 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Erm..a PC Q Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <2BA30E85393@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 530 Lines: 16 > About erasing stuff in your windows dir, since you're at Preston you > should have a 'F:\windows3' directory in your area; the easy way to > fix it it to select the 'reset windows' from the novell menus when > you first log in. That should fix anything but it will reset any > preferences you had set. Eeek! Still doesn't work! I might try copying somebody elses windows directory and see if I have any luck with that... Cheers anyway! > Christian Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 16:53:53 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:52:22 GMT+0 Subject: Erm...these Snap thingies... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <2BBF6841BAD@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 984 Lines: 25 I know I've asked this one before, but I wasn't clear on the answer. Via a friend ( I still can't download anything from the Net even after updating all my DLL's in my Windows directory) I've got hold of some of the speccy games and the SAM stuff from NVG. Right, the Speccy stuff has file extension called Z80, and some of the SAM stuff has extensions of PAK. What do I do to get this stuff up and running on the SAM. I KE_Disk it over, right? And then what? Sorry for being so bloody thick, but BASIC is my limit...and at least it's something to talk about whilst the list is so quiet. The question is, if I stay subbed over Christmas will Tim be a right sod and do as suggested...?!! Or will the list suddenly explode into life when somebody discovers that the SAM can actually power a time machine. And am I the only sodding student left at Uni? All the other bloody slackers have gone home...! Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 17:01:51 1996 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:59:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Erm...these Snap thingies... In-Reply-To: <2BBF6841BAD@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1483 Lines: 39 On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Johnna Teare wrote: > Right, the Speccy stuff has file extension called Z80, and some of > the SAM stuff has extensions of PAK. > What do I do to get this stuff up and running on the SAM. I KE_Disk > it over, right? And then what? PAK files - generally load at 32000, and call 32000, but there is an unPAK utility on nvg that, urm, comes as a td0 file ;) z80's - convert on your pc to SNA (loads of utils to fo this), then on the sam run a sna to snapshot program (one on nvg as convert.pak ;) > The question is, if I stay subbed over Christmas will Tim be a right > sod and do as suggested...?!! Or will the list suddenly explode into > life when somebody discovers that the SAM can actually power a time > machine. Of course I wouldn't, however, I have been working on this interesting little bit of hardward that generates a temporal distortion in the abric of time and space due to positive tachyon flow. > And am I the only sodding student left at Uni? All the other bloody > slackers have gone home...! nah, I'm a student, I just don't admit it often, besides, I'm a postgrad and we actually do some work. > "Thank God It's Christmas!" yeah, but after that comes new year and exams :( Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 17 18:19:22 1996 Message-Id: <199612171820.SAA13643@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Ftn-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: ProSAM Date: 15 Dec 1996 22:07:15 Organization: and it breaks into pieces References: <199612151458.OAA01065@hermes.clara.net> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 644 Lines: 16 In a message of 15 Dec 96 David Ledbury wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi David, >> system. Does the counterpart "samwrite" exist anywhere for Pro-DOS? I DL> Seem to recall there was a proggy to do this on a back issue of the SAM DL> Adventure Club mag - but best E-mail Dave Whitmore for more info. I've just checked, ProSAM was on issue 5 (thanks to Gareth's handy index.ref files:)). I remember that being one liddle superduper util. So I'll dig it out and make a .pak file. Anyone who wants it can.. erm.. have it. Drink, drink, drain your glass, raise your glass high. Dave Whitmore (it's not the side effects of the cocaine). From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 18 09:04:28 1996 From: Terry 'Tez' Froy Organization: Boston College To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:03:30 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Can you still buy a SAM ? X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Terry 'Tez' Froy" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-Id: <602CB136AF@casper.boston.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 544 Lines: 16 I'm new to this mailing list so don't flame me if I'm asking a question that gets asked everyday ;) I live in the U.K. and my SAM recently died on me (power surge, as you can probably guess from the reliability of the U.K's National Grid ). I was wondering whether it is possible to buy a SAM Coupe either new or second hand (but in fairly good condition) with a disk drive installed ? Obviously, information on a U.K. based source would be GREATLY appreciated ! Many thanks, Terry Froy (Boston College of Further Education, U.K.) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 18 10:10:24 1996 From: Soft Purple Fluffy Bunny Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:11:58 GMT Subject: Re: Can you still buy a SAM ? Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-Id: <17CFC13518@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 984 Lines: 23 > I'm new to this mailing list so don't flame me if I'm asking a > question that gets asked everyday ;) > > I live in the U.K. and my SAM recently died on me (power surge, as > you can probably guess from the reliability of the U.K's National > Grid ). I was wondering whether it is possible to buy a SAM Coupe > either new or second hand (but in fairly good condition) with a disk > drive installed ? > > Obviously, information on a U.K. based source would be GREATLY > appreciated ! > > Many thanks, > > Terry Froy > (Boston College of Further Education, U.K.) Welcome to the list! (Although you picked a bad time to join it - its not usually this quiet, honest!) West Coast Computers well sell you a re-conditioned Sam Coupe (if they've any left) or a Sam Elite (which is the same as the Coupe except it has a printer port built in, a new type of floppy drive and a horrible logo on it). FormatPub@aol.com should get hold of the man himself, Mr Bob Brenchley. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 18 12:09:04 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961218121038.008f895c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:10:38 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Challenge - 1 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 545 Lines: 18 Rightyho you lot, A challenge for you... Write a version of Xswarm for the SAM -- it can be written in anything you like, but it must be quite a good facsimile of the original. <> Write a version which periodically stops generally swarming, and the bees then go off and swarm around to form the letters "SAM". You can cheat and use lines between the bees after a certain point -- fade them in or something. [I've just done this all in Java for a product for our company... doesn't look bad at all!] Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 18 12:35:18 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Challenge - 1 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:34:05 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961218121038.008f895c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Dec 18, 96 12:10:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 72 Lines: 5 > Simon, what was the result of that survey you did a while ago? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 18 12:41:18 1996 Subject: Re: Challenge - 1 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:39:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew M Gale" at Dec 18, 96 12:34:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Dec18.124023+0000_gmt.46932-5558+89@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 162 Lines: 6 Survey... Not had chance to look at them yet (I was in a conference in London all last week)... I'll try and get them all sorted out over the weekend... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 18 17:36:14 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 17:29:34 GMT+0 Subject: My Santa Sack... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <2D49E722B70@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 715 Lines: 20 So what's everybody ordeing themselves for Christmas this year then (sam wise I mean, I don't want to know about slippers and stuff...!) Got myself C last year and still haven't bothered to learn it (beacuse of that scanf bug that I think we've found a fix for) so I think that's what I'll be up to over Chrimbo. Ridiculously quiet this list isn't it? Makes me almost determined to talk rubbish... Anywa, I'll be unsubbing in a few days so if I don't write before then - I hope everybody has a very merry Christmas and an extremely prosperous New Year. And try not to pour TOO much sherry down the throat...! See you all next year... Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Dec 18 20:18:01 1996 From: Christian Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 20:14:36 GMT+0 Subject: Re: My Santa Sack... X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Christian" X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-Id: <2D75E0679EB@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 119 Lines: 5 Happy Christmas all! I know I don't always write much but I do read it all when I get time. Have a good 'um Christian From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 19 13:25:52 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:53:39 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Can you still buy a SAM ? - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 512 Lines: 19 > I'm new to this mailing list so don't flame me if > I'm asking a question that gets asked everyday ;) *grins* Given that it's chrimbo and there's no traffic on this list, I welcome *anything* that prevents me from doing any *real* work... > I was wondering whether it is possible to buy a SAM > Coupe either new or second hand (but in fairly good > condition) with a disk drive installed ? Speak to Mr Brenchley if he doesn't reply to this himself. Bob's 'Business' email box: formatpub@aol.com Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 19 15:29:53 1996 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 10:28:12 -0500 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-Id: <961219102812_776996027@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Z380 and Z80 manuals. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 509 Lines: 11 I've just managed to con copies of the Z80 Microprocessor Family User's Manual, and the Z380 Microprocessor Preliminary Specification, out of Zilog. I've asked them for prices to buy these in to sell on to list members but they what to know how many. So, who would want one or other if the price was right? (tht will be their charge + P&P. Z80 manual is very thick, the Z380 one much slimmer. I know there are not many on the list at the moment, but I should be able to get an idea from the responce. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 19 15:44:38 1996 Subject: Re: Z380 and Z80 manuals. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 15:42:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <961219102812_776996027@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 19, 96 10:28:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Dec19.154309+0000_gmt.46937-5556+162@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 178 Lines: 6 > I know there are not many on the list at the moment, but I should be able to > get an idea from the responce. Well, I've already got both of these, so I'll abstain :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 19 16:44:27 1996 Message-Id: <199612191643.RAA14082@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: Z380 and Z80 manuals. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 19 Dec 96 17:43:11 MET In-Reply-To: <961219102812_776996027@emout06.mail.aol.com>; from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 19, 96 10:28 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 627 Lines: 14 The Z380 Manual would be useful, I already have Zaks for my Z80 reference so I don't really need the Z80 manual. With The Z380 specs I can start coding an emulator. Allan +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 19 17:39:10 1996 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Z380 and Z80 manuals. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 17:33:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <961219102812_776996027@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Dec 19, 96 10:28:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 134 Lines: 4 I'm interested in the z380 manual, but not the z80 one - unless they aren't available seperately, in which case I'd like both! -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 19 18:49:00 1996 Message-Id: <32B98DD7.69F9@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 18:47:51 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: New address Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 158 Lines: 10 Hi y'all Nev Young here. My new e-mail address is nevilley@ndirect.co.uk Anythning sent to the old Compuserve address will most likely not reach me. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Dec 19 21:04:23 1996 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 20:57:35 GMT Message-Id: <199612192057.UAA11740@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Where Be Ye All? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 193 Lines: 6 Look, just cos I goes away for a couple of weeks (work - not play) Everything goes and dies. Its alright for them that can have holidays, oh to be back at uni... Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 20 10:38:17 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961220103942.008f8404@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 10:39:42 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Merry Christmas Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 176 Lines: 13 Hi everyone, Merry CHristmas! Check out (if you've got a Java browser): http://www.sss.co.uk/~sc/xmascard.html :) Simon 3:@) <-- rudolph the red-nosed smiley :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 20 11:09:48 1996 Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 12:08:28 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9612201108.AA05242@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Merry Christmas X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 263 Lines: 14 > Hi everyone, > > Merry CHristmas! Ditto. :) > > Check out (if you've got a Java browser): http://www.sss.co.uk/~sc/xmascard.html > Mygod....Java must be the single worst thing that has happend to the computer industry since Microsoft.... -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 20 11:12:30 1996 Message-Id: <199612201111.MAA03209@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: Merry Christmas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 12:11:13 MET In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19961220103942.008f8404@nessie.mcc.ac.uk>; from "Simon Cooke" at Dec 20, 96 10:39 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1109 Lines: 25 Hello All, The College shuts down today for Xmas, so I'll follow Simon's message with the same (Nice applet by the way - we finally have a JAVA compatible browser installed). Over the holiday I'll try to get a distribution of SimCoupe put together. heres what is new at the moment : VGAlib or X11 display (using the new display code) Intel assembly optimisations in the z80 kernel Have a good Christmas and New Year everyone Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! XCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/xcoupe *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 20 12:06:52 1996 Subject: Re: Merry Christmas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 12:04:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9612201108.AA05242@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Dec 20, 96 12:08:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <96Dec20.120535+0000_gmt.46930-5559+200@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 369 Lines: 17 > > Check out (if you've got a Java browser): http://www.sss.co.uk/~sc/xmascard.html > > > > Mygod....Java must be the single worst thing that has happend to > the computer industry since Microsoft.... How come? BTW: check out the other page: http://wasp.sss.co.uk/ :) (another of my applets, and some web pages I've put together for our sister company) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 20 12:13:34 1996 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 12:11:25 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Merry Christmas - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 267 Lines: 15 > (another of my applets, and some web pages I've put > together for our sister company) I have a single reason why Java applets are great: http://www.urban75.demon.co.uk/smackem.html That is all. Happy chrimbo people and I will see you in the new year. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 20 16:06:53 1996 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 16:05:43 GMT+0 Subject: Going, going...gone! Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-Id: <303325324F3@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 390 Lines: 11 Right, defintely off this time - hope you all have a wonderful Christmas and I'll see everybody in 1997. Let's hope we'll get this SAMSon up and running by then - things have gone uncomfortably quiet on that front recently. Better change my sig file before I go, also! Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Thank God It's Christmas!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Fri Dec 20 19:46:34 1996 Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 19:45:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Merry Christmas Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 566 Lines: 18 Righty-ho, I'm outta here. Going home monday, and if she has any sense the SO will stop me logging on over the weekend, so I guess I'm off! I'm hard, I'm gonna leave myself subbed to this list, so you can't talk about me while I'm gone, well, I guess you can, but I'd find out :) Happy New Year to ya all! Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From imc Fri Dec 20 19:48:47 1996 Subject: Re: Merry Christmas To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 19:48:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Paveley" at Dec 20, 96 07:45:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 144 Lines: 8 On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 19:45:07 +0000 (GMT), Tim Paveley said: > Righty-ho, > > I'm outta here. Going home monday So am I. Back Jan 6th. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 21 15:24:44 1996 Message-Id: <199612211522.QAA16964@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: Sam users Subject: Fred 75 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:22:18 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 240 Lines: 8 Where's is Fred 75?, it is now the 21th and there is still no fred in my Snail-box Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sat Dec 21 22:02:37 1996 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 22:00:21 GMT Message-Id: <199612212200.WAA21763@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Fred 75 From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: Sam users X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 408 Lines: 17 On Dec 21, 1996 16:22:18, '"Robert van der Veeke" ' wrote: >Where's is Fred 75?, it is now the 21th and there is still no fred in my >Snail-box > >Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics >[rjvveeke@caiw.nl] >Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! >Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? >--- Jetman --- -- Got mine on Thursday. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 22 17:39:25 1996 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 17:38:31 GMT Message-Id: <199612221738.RAA16925@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Why can't I get this through? From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3344 Lines: 101 Have tried to send a message twice to Simon Cooke re his poll. Both times I've got back the following block. Can't understand it. -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-9044 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This report relates to your message: Subject: Poll, Message-ID: <199612202036.UAA12299@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com>, To: sc@sss.co.uk. of Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:41:41 +0000 Your message was not delivered to sc@.uk.co.sss for the following reason: Unknown Address Unknown domain '.uk.co.sss' ***** The following information is directed towards the local administrator ***** and is not intended for the end user * * DR generated by: mta earn-relay.ja.net * in /PRMD=janet/ADMD=0/C=gb/ * at Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:41:42 +0000 * * Converted to RFC 822 at earn-relay.ja.net * at Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:41:44 +0000 * * Delivery Report Contents: * * Subject-Submission-Identifier: [/PRMD=janet/ADMD=0/C=gb/;<199612202036.UAA12299@pipe1.uk.] * Content-Identifier: Poll * Original-Encoded-Information-Types: ia5-text * Subject-Intermediate-Trace-Information: /PRMD=janet/ADMD=0/C=gb/arrival Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:41:41 +0000 action Relayed * Content-Correlator: Subject: Poll, * Message-ID: <199612202036.UAA12299@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com>, * To: sc@sss.co.uk.* Recipient-Info: sc@.uk.co.sss, * /RFC-822=sc(a).uk.co.sss/O=earn-relay/PRMD=janet/ADMD=0/C=gb/; * FAILURE reason Unable-To-Transfer (1); * diagnostic Unrecognised-ORName (0); * last trace (ia5-text) Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:41:41 +0000; * converted eits ia5-text; * supplementary info "Unknown domain '.uk.co.sss'"; ****** End of administration information -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-9044 Content-type: message/rfc822 Via: uk.co.salford-software-services.e; Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:41:42 +0000 Received: from uk.pipeline.com (actually mail1.uk.pipeline.com) by e.sss.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 20 Dec 1996 21:12:08 +0000 Received: from pipe1.uk.pipeline.com by uk.pipeline.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PIPELINE-pop-local) id UAA13631; Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:31:34 GMT Received: by pipe1.uk.pipeline.com (8.6.12/SMI-5.4-PSI) id UAA12299; Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:36:04 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:36:04 GMT Message-Id: <199612202036.UAA12299@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sc@sss.co.uk. Subject: Poll From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Sender: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The answers you requested kind sir, 1 b 2 c 3 b 4 e (*.txt would match /every/ file in directory) gorra agree with Bobby on dis one.) 5 a (with copy in file header to allow unerase) 6 d (like hard drive) 7 b 8 a 9 c 10 What? No understand, too many words. - Anyways, as far as mailings go, just toooo much Andrew Collier :) >------END-------- >Or just the start??? >Simon Sorry me late, been off on course for jobby - got to get to grips with DBase :( Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com -----Multi-Part-Message-Level-1-1-9044-- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 22 21:31:10 1996 Message-Id: <199612222127.VAA10390@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Merry Christmas Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 96 21:24:16 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 186 Lines: 6 A Merry Christmas to everyone who hasn't already shut down for the Hols! (And to everyone else!) >From all at Persona!! PS: If anyone's still on, shout so we know who we can speak to! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Dec 22 23:21:04 1996 Message-Id: <199612222318.AAA04604@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Merry Christmas Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 00:18:04 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 670 Lines: 22 I AM STILL HERE! ---------- > Van: David Ledbury > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Merry Christmas > Datum: zondag, december 22, 1996 10:24 > > A Merry Christmas to everyone who hasn't already shut down for the Hols! > (And to everyone else!) > > >From all at Persona!! > > PS: If anyone's still on, shout so we know who we can speak to! Merry christmas to everyone and the best for 1997, and I think I can speak for Martijn Groen who probo will say the same thing to you all! :-) Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Hokay, you plurps! Stan by your pots! Which one o' you plurps is sittin on my eye? --- Jetman --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 23 00:59:02 1996 Message-Id: <9612230057.AA06665@mars.cableol.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 00:56:22 +0000 Subject: Re: Merry Christmas Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 481 Lines: 18 > A Merry Christmas to everyone who hasn't already shut down for the Hols! > (And to everyone else!) > > From all at Persona!! > > PS: If anyone's still on, shout so we know who we can speak to! > Well, I'm Still here - not that I say a lot. Merry Christmas everyone. Neil Maynard +-------------------------------+ |Neil Maynard | |E-Mail: mne2@cableol.co.uk | +-------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 23 10:19:17 1996 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:15:49 GMT Message-Id: <199612231015.KAA10315@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Merry Christmas From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Pipeuser: samsboss X-Pipehub: uk.pipeline.com X-Pipegcos: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 244 Lines: 7 Can't shout, got velly sore headypoo from last night. Going back to bed until the sun goes down, can't stand the noice of the birds churping. See everybods after Chrissypoo. Don't do anything I wouldn't do... -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 23 10:49:57 1996 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961223105158.00904808@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:51:58 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Why can't I get this through? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 344 Lines: 12 At 17:38 22/12/96 GMT, you wrote: >Status: > >Have tried to send a message twice to Simon Cooke re his poll. Both times >I've got back the following block. Can't understand it. Ah... it's the full-stop at the end of the address which it doesn't like :) try: sc@sss.co.uk instead of sc@sss.co.uk. , which is what you were using :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Dec 23 21:03:18 1996 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Mad House To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 20:01:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Merry Christmas Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Message-Id: <851371468.624645.0@error.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 917 Lines: 24 > From: David Ledbury > Subject: Merry Christmas > A Merry Christmas to everyone who hasn't already shut down for the > Hols! (And to everyone else!) > > >From all at Persona!! > > PS: If anyone's still on, shout so we know who we can speak to! Merry Xmas to you all, maybe now the list has died down, and a bit of a holiday from work, I can get some of the 1,800 messages read that I havn't had time to read lately..... but then again, it depends on the condition of my head.... :-) All the best to everyone in SamLand. See ya, -- Dean Liversidge .__ . , Co-Sysop of Dalmation BBS | \ _.|._ _ _.-+-* _ ._ The First SAM Bulletin Board |__/(_]|[ | )(_] | |(_)[ ) Saturday 12:00pm till midnight. >>>>>>> +44 1744 614150 >>>>>> Sysop: Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Dec 24 19:16:04 1996 Message-Id: <199612241916.TAA26444@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Ftn-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Merry Christmas Date: 24 Dec 1996 18:54:31 Organization: Enterprise References: <199612222127.VAA10390@hermes.clara.net> X-Newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-Mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 623 Lines: 25 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In a message of 22 Dec 96 David Ledbury wrote to sam-users@nvg.unit.no: Hi David, DL> A Merry Christmas to everyone who hasn't already shut down for the DL> Hols! (And to everyone else!) >> From all at Persona!! DL> PS: If anyone's still on, shout so we know who we can speak to! Yeah, *Merry* *Christmas* *Everybody* (or Yuletide - which I think I'll try and call it in future.. doesn't have the same ring tho.. so (I'll shut up:) )) I've got a cold, but I'm off to get drunk regardless. :) Byeeeee _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/index.html From Rob_G_Wood@msn.com Mon Dec 30 11:17:45 1996 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 96 10:50:49 UT From: Robert Wood Message-Id: To: 101762.2062@compuserve.com, 106460.3142@compuserve.com, allan@hpopb1.cern.ch, ar@RMnet.it, ben@charm.il.ft.hse.nl, blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk, BrenchleyR@aol.com, C.F.CABLE@UCLAN.AC.UK, d.c.hooper@sms.ed.ac.uk, d.handley@lancaster.ac.uk, D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk, davewhitmore@enterprise.net, davidm@enterprise.net, dean@error.demon.co.uk, DOOREDJ@parliament.uk, fro0206p@boston.ac.uk, ft@edh.ericsson.se, Gouranga@aol.com, Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk, IDalziel@idalziel.demon.co.uk, janowska@usctoux1.cto.us.edu.pl, Jon_Hampton@iconex.mactel.org, l.willis@comp.brad.ac.uk, mchu4mgs@fs2.ee.umist.ac.uk, mne2@cableol.co.uk, nevilley@ndirect.co.uk, persona@clara.net, rds@coventry.ac.uk, rjvveeke@caiw.nl, sam-users@obobo.demon.co.uk, samcoupe@cadderly.demon.co.uk, samsboss@uk.pipeline.com, se94jko@ex.ac.uk, sh5655@bristol.ac.uk, sh5655@irix.bris.ac.uk, simon.cooke@umist.ac.uk, slawek@math.uni-goettingen.de, smith-gc@ulst.ac.uk, sskardon@argonet.co.uk, Stefan_Drissen@nl.coopers.com, tgw1001@cam.ac.uk, unc@dplinux.sund.ac.uk Subject: SAM Coupe & Loads of bits for sale Status: RO Content-Length: 936 Lines: 38 First my apologies for using the Sam-Users mailing list to contact you. I personally hate spammers, but I could not think of another way of doing this effectively. Times are tough and I regrettably have to sell my trusty SAM. Listed below are all the bits and gadgets I have accumulated, Please make me an offer by return email. Robert Wood, Rob_G_Wood@msn.com. HARDWARE SAM Coupe Original model with 512K memory upgrade and updated ROM, 3.5" floppy Technical Manual Ver 3.0 Users Guide (1989 Version) SAM Sound Sampler SAM Interface (Printer) SAM Messenger SOFTWARE Outwrite word processor Master DOS 2.1 SAM sequencer ver 1.0 and 2.0 LERM SAM Assembler ver 2.0 Flash! GAMES Prince of Persia Sphera DISC MAGAZINES News letters 1 to 5 FRED 3, 4, 6, 7 ,8 ,10, 11a&b, 14 Enceladus 2, 3, 4 & 5 BOOKS ZX Spectrum Micro Guide Spectrum machine language for the absolute beginner Supercharge your spectrum Machine code for beginners