From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Feb 2 17:56:35 1997 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:55:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2887 Lines: 68 I'd hoped my mail would have generated more than one reply, but still... On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Andrew M Gale wrote: > I hear what you're saying, but I really think your suggestion > that it will only need a little more effort to produce a > z380 board is being a bit optimistic! We're talking about > using a processor which [probably] none of us have experience > of, and (although it may seem only a simple point) the fact > that it will have lots of pins means prototypes are hard to > make. Also, the high clock rates may require PCB designing > skills beyond our capabilities. I admit that the electronics may be difficult to sort out. However, my point was that the SRAM board should be designed to make the addition of a Z380 processor as easy as possible, and if that isn't currently the case then it should be. > The main advantage of the new processor will be speed, so > go ahead and use the SRAM and be content with the knowledge > that some day, some way, your programs will run much faster! Speed, yes, but also a large addressible memory space, and an extended instruction set with 16-bit operations etc. I maintain that there is no point reworking Sam operating systems for the Z80, then expecting to have an efficient operating system for the Z380 on the SamSon. It will be like Win95 - still a 16bit O/S but on 32bit processors. Moreover, any Z80 code (in RAM or SRAM) will need to page memory wheras the Z380 will not. If the software can be written with that in mind then you would not believe how much trouble it will save! > -Andy This is what I (admittedly with zero hardware expertise) would set to achieve with a prototype Sam <-> SRAM <-> Z380 board. - Sam can write to SRAM (when button is pressed) - Z380 can read from SRAM, and perhaps can write to SRAM (when button is pressed) - Z380 has 1 meg or more of it's own RAM (on the Z380 board, or the SRAM board?) which is uncontended and always runs at top speed - For screen operations, Z380 can write to Sam's internal memory (at slower speed) Reading from internal memory would be nice but is less important - The internal Z80 may or may not continue to work when the Z380 is active. One or the other is active by default at startup, but control can be swapped by software - Z380 I/O is mapped onto Sam's hardware; for sound, disk, VMPR changes etc (but later can be acted on directly by new hardware which comes along) Which of the above are possible/impossible/feasible/impractical?? If this board is going to get built at all, it might as well be now! Bob may jump on me for saying that (sell the ROMs before designing the rest etc) but I firmly believe that the processor is even more of a priority than the SRAM software. Either we have the definitive processor now, or we write the operating system twice. None of the other hardware add-ons have quite such implications. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Sun Feb 2 18:08:55 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:08:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 2, 97 05:55:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1751 Lines: 50 > This is what I (admittedly with zero hardware expertise) would set to > achieve with a prototype Sam <-> SRAM <-> Z380 board. > > - Sam can write to SRAM (when button is pressed) ... no problem! > - Z380 can read from SRAM, and perhaps can write to SRAM (when button is > pressed) ... no problem again! > - Z380 has 1 meg or more of it's own RAM (on the Z380 board, or the SRAM The best place to put the RAM would be on the z380 board. If we decide that the z80 is a lost cause then it would be easier to lump the processor and SRAM as one board - the z80 would then just be used to program the SRAM which would be used for the z380's boot-up code. Is there any need to make existing SAM programs run on the z380? This places a severe constraint on the design... could we not just say if you want to run current SAM stuff then use the z80? > - For screen operations, Z380 can write to Sam's internal memory (at > slower speed) Reading from internal memory would be nice but is less > important > > - The internal Z80 may or may not continue to work when the Z380 is > active. One or the other is active by default at startup, but control can > be swapped by software It would be easiest to disable by the z80 completely. If the z80 was running and only had to stop when the z380 needed to access RAM then this would be slow - the z80 would take several cycles to release the bus on each memory cycle. The hardware would be more complex too. > - Z380 I/O is mapped onto Sam's hardware; for sound, disk, VMPR changes > etc (but later can be acted on directly by new hardware which comes along) > I don't know what you mean by the comment in brackets. Do you mean DMA accesses, or are you meaning for a new graphics cards etc? -Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 10:21:30 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970203101704.009195ac@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:17:04 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1807 Lines: 41 At 20:25 31/01/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> that the "fancy processor" as you put it, IS a priority. I am not >> experienced enough in hardware to say whether or not Nev's designs will >> work, but I do hope that it has been designed such that it will be >> feasible and easy to attach the extra processor - probably the Z380 - and >> its Ram. Ideally, those two boards will be designed, manufactured and sold >> in conjunction with each other. It will require only a little more >> hardware effort at this time, and bring us all *several* steps closer to >> the end point. > >I hear what you're saying, but I really think your suggestion >that it will only need a little more effort to produce a >z380 board is being a bit optimistic! We're talking about >using a processor which [probably] none of us have experience >of, and (although it may seem only a simple point) the fact Hang on! Hang on! We do have experience of it; existing Z80 programs *will* work. >that it will have lots of pins means prototypes are hard to >make. Also, the high clock rates may require PCB designing >skills beyond our capabilities. 18MHz isn't too high to design for; 30MHz would be. Simple rules for 18MHz design: curve your right-angled corners on your tracks, and don't run lines in parallel on opposite sides of the board. BTW: pins could be a slight problem -- which is why we bought extender sockets. >The main advantage of the new processor will be speed, so >go ahead and use the SRAM and be content with the knowledge >that some day, some way, your programs will run much faster! True... though the SRAM idea might have problems with the new architecture -- and would be a definite bottleneck if it was used on the new board. A flat memory architecture changes pretty much everything here. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 11:02:42 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:07:49 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Hello! Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: <91A47540468@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 273 Lines: 9 I'm BACK! I've returned! Are you still all discussing this SamSon thing then..? Oh, and Graham Goring will probably have email access in about a weeks time. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 11:31:51 1997 Message-Id: <32F5CC51.41C6@math.uni-goettingen.de> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:30:25 +0100 From: Slawomir Grodkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.2 alpha) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: your mail References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 494 Lines: 15 Andrew M Gale wrote: > > > Have I missed anything exciting? > > > > Yes... in your absence West Coast Computers has gone into receivership > and a new company called Norwich Technology has bought the rights > to the SAM. They planned to release it as a rival to Acorn's > Network Computer, but they themselves went bust. Negotiations > are currently under way for Escom to buy the SAM rights. Hopefully > we should see the SAM on sale in German high streets by the summer... Wow!!! Slawek. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 11:58:38 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:57:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3041 Lines: 70 On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Andrew M Gale wrote: > > - Z380 has 1 meg or more of it's own RAM (on the Z380 board, or the SRAM > > The best place to put the RAM would be on the z380 board. If > we decide that the z80 is a lost cause then it would be > easier to lump the processor and SRAM as one board - the > z80 would then just be used to program the SRAM which would > be used for the z380's boot-up code. Is there any need to > make existing SAM programs run on the z380? This places > a severe constraint on the design... could we not just say if > you want to run current SAM stuff then use the z80? Bob's reasons for keeping the SRAM seperate was for long-term future-proofing; if Zilog bring out a faster Z380 in response to SamSon's major worldwide success, we won't have to throw away as much of our hardware in order to use it. There's probably a valid point in that, but for the moment I think the designers should stick to whatever is easiest and works best. That is to say, put the external Ram wherever you think it ought to go, and there's no need to keep paging the internal 512K, just keep it in one block (since you can unplug or otherwise disable the boards to run old Sam software) > > - For screen operations, Z380 can write to Sam's internal memory (at > > slower speed) Reading from internal memory would be nice but is less > > important > > > > - The internal Z80 may or may not continue to work when the Z380 is > > active. One or the other is active by default at startup, but control can > > be swapped by software > > It would be easiest to disable by the z80 completely. If the z80 > was running and only had to stop when the z380 needed to access RAM > then this would be slow - the z80 would take several cycles to > release the bus on each memory cycle. The hardware would be more > complex too. Fine. Whatever works best. All we really want is for the Z380 to be able to write to internal memory, and it doesn't really matter if this is moderately slow provided the hardware can cope. > > - Z380 I/O is mapped onto Sam's hardware; for sound, disk, VMPR changes > > etc (but later can be acted on directly by new hardware which comes along) > > I don't know what you mean by the comment in brackets. Do you > mean DMA accesses, or are you meaning for a new graphics cards > etc? Anything. Whatever. All I mean is: 1) In the short term once the board is designed, we can use the Z380 to write to internal memory, and the screen is generated from the internal circuitry. So we need to be able to tell the VMPR what sort of screen we want to display. Also it will be necessary to do other things like disk access, sound chip etc directly if the internal Z80B isn't on-line. 2) This must not stop ANY future hardware (graphics cards, soundchips, disk drives or whatever) from communicating with the Z380. Small point - when would be the best time to add a timer/interrupt generator? I suppose it should go with the Z380 board, and with make things like sample players far easier to write. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 12:52:32 1997 Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:50:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 3, 97 11:57:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb3.125135+0000_gmt.46932-99+66@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 279 Lines: 6 > Small point - when would be the best time to add a timer/interrupt > generator? I suppose it should go with the Z380 board, and with make > things like sample players far easier to write. We've already got one - though admittedly, you do need the Comms interface to do it... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 14:01:33 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:00:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@lagrange.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970203101704.009195ac@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1315 Lines: 33 On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > 18MHz isn't too high to design for; 30MHz would be. Simple rules for 18MHz > design: curve your right-angled corners on your tracks, and don't run lines > in parallel on opposite sides of the board. Can you explain why? I'm not exactly too hot about hardware design, but I know the basics... Curved corners? Ermm.. Why is this giving me a picture of a Indy 500 motor-racing track with banked corners? :) Don't the electrons like sharp corners and so they skid off into the paint? :) And why not in parallel? OK. Seriously now.. I think for the corners, it's like bus-planes. If the speed is too high, the voltage bounces back and makes a pulse in the wrong place or something like that. For 'no parallel lines on opposite sides', do you mean on opposite sides, or opposite 'edges'? My first thought was opposite edges. But it would be nice to it being explained... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 14:29:49 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:28:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702031428.GAA09496@f14.hotmail.com> From: Colin Piggot To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: HELLO! Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1071 Lines: 25 Hello! After an abscense of around six months i'm now back on the Sam mailing list. My new email address is c_piggot@hotmail.com and the old st-and one (which I had when I was at university and was closed after I had graduated) should of course not be used! Colin Piggot. +------------------------+-------------------------------+-----------------+ | Colin Piggot | __ ___ __ | Quazar Surround | | c_piggot@hotmail.com | /| | | | | / | | |\ | Souncard: 16bit | | | / | | | |__| / |__| |_\ | sound on Sam! | | Email your snailmail | /_\| |__| | | /__ | | | \ | 'Hearing is | | address for 14+ page | | believing.' | | booklet about products | Hardware and Software for Sam | | +------------------------+-------------------------------+-----------------+ --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 14:57:26 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:56:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Please Help me with my Homework ;) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3434 Lines: 93 Okay, it's actually coursework, and I'm not after an answer..... As part of my course I have to do stats (spit), and as part of that I've got to do something called multivariate analysis, and as part of that I've got some coursework. I need to collect a set of data, and then hope I learn enough to be about to analysis the data I get. We are allowed to use whatever data we like, so I thought I'd do something to do with the Sam. Actually it's possible I won't as I have another possible source of data, but the Sam would be more interesting if I ever decide I'm happy with the questions I've asked. I'd really appreciate it if people could fill in the below questionaire and return it to me. You may return it to the list if you really want, though I imagine that would annoy some people, so you might want to check it says unc and not sam-users at the top before you send it ;) Any data I get will be strictly confidental etc, etc. I'll strip everyones names of and assign everyone a number or something before I actually process it all, so anything that might be seen by anyone other than me will be anonymous. I'm also not exactly sure which answers I'll use, I think I've got to use about 4 sets, but I'll ask more and then just pick some. I also need some grouping questions like sex etc at the end, so I can try to group results by features (or something statistical like that), so I'd appreciate it if you'd answer them, they shouldn't be too personal... ==== Please Rate on a scale of 0 to 9 (where 0 is crap, and 9 is orgasmic ;) the following: The Sam Coupe as a machine for games : " a machine for programming/development : " a machine for utilities/business : " overall : The average quality of games you've played : " programming/development tools used : " utils/business used : Sam Software overall : (by prog/develop I mean things like masterbasic, scads, c, comet) (by utils/busine I mean things like SC_Word, campion, sam paint) (the first set what you think of sams capabilities) (the second set are what you think of what has been done) ==== Urm, okay, some comparision type questions, on a scale of 1-9, taking 5 to be the rating of the given machine... vs Speccy 128 SNES P100 PC Atari ST Sound? Graphics? Speed? ==== (I now try to think up other possible questions..) How many hours a week do you normally spend on your sam? Do you mainly use your sam for (pick 1): Games Programming-Development Utilities-Business ==== A few "grouping questions", pretty please with sugar answer these... Are you: Male Female (is there anyone female on this list?) Age: <16 16-20 21-25 26-30 30-50 50+ (okay, fairly tight grouping near the front I know, but I'd claim that the bulk of users on this list are going to be students or recent graduates) What county do you live in? ==== Thanks for your time, if I come up with anything interesting I'll mail it to the list, and like I said I may end up using some completely different stuff as I don't really like the questions I've come up with, of course, if anyone can think of better ones I'll happily try again :) Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 16:03:11 1997 Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:00:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Feb 3, 97 02:00:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb3.160158+0000_gmt.46933-100+74@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2894 Lines: 67 > > 18MHz isn't too high to design for; 30MHz would be. Simple rules for 18MHz > > design: curve your right-angled corners on your tracks, and don't run lines > > in parallel on opposite sides of the board. > > Can you explain why? I'm not exactly too hot about hardware design, but I > know the basics... > > Curved corners? Ermm.. Why is this giving me a picture of a Indy 500 > motor-racing track with banked corners? :) Don't the electrons like sharp > corners and so they skid off into the paint? :) Pretty much spot on :) Think of the actual signals going down the tracks in terms of waves (which is what they are). At low speeds (bandwidths is more accurate), the signals quite happily slosh around the tracks as they stand. However, when the speed goes up, these 90 degree corners look more and more like mirrors to the signal, so you get a lot of signal bouncing back and forth between the two corners, and hey presto, a very dodgy circuit. Curves act a little like waveguides, in that they allow the signal to kind of slink around the corners... I'm no expert, and there's a lot more than just this to designing for high frequency circuits, but that's the basic jist of it... So for not-too-high speeds, curves will sort out most problems... > And why not in parallel? > > OK. Seriously now.. > > I think for the corners, it's like bus-planes. If the speed is too high, > the voltage bounces back and makes a pulse in the wrong place or > something like that. Yep, you got it ;) > For 'no parallel lines on opposite sides', do you mean on opposite sides, > or opposite 'edges'? My first thought was opposite edges. Opposite sides of the board... You see, if you have two tracks which look like this: ### = board --- =track --------------- ############### --------------- You get an effect (caused by the stray capacitance and inductance that you just can't get rid of) known as a mirror -- in that signals down one track will induce equal and opposite signals in the other track, so that the net effect (as far as the space in the area of the two tracks is concerned) is that it looks like there is no signal in that area. However, on a global level of course, there is a signal in that area -- and so the two signals mix each other up (known as "crosstalk"), causing spurious signals in both tracks. having them crossing each other anti-parallel (ie in a cross shape) reduces this effect to nearly nothing -- namely because the local effect is the only thing you get, and that's only present in the area where it crosses. It doesn't expand to a global level because there's only a tiny amount of track which is actually linked in this kind of mirror effect. You can also reduce this electromagnetic mirroring effect by sticking in a whopping great ground plane (which is generally noisy anyway), which will soak up the stray signal. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 16:23:53 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:22:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@jacobi.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <97Feb3.160158+0000_gmt.46933-100+74@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 497 Lines: 15 On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: [Snipped] > Simon Excellent. Thanks. It explains a lot.. :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 17:22:03 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:21:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970203101704.009195ac@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1286 Lines: 28 I've been reading various of the comments on here. Having no data whatsoever on the z380 means that I've no idea about some of the problems/features etc that will work for/against us. Joint/z380 access to SAM internal memory & I/O: Forgive me for asking, but isn't this z380 a 16/32 bit device, in which case we have a 16/32 bit data bus to link to the SAM's 8 bit data bus. Not much of a problem for I/O, but what happens with instruction fetching? We also have the old problem of the SAM hardware not being designed for 18MHz. Therefore, the problems of running the Z80 alongside the z380 over the same data & address lines aside, this system would seem to provide both major headaches and bottlenecks. Joint access to SRAM - well, pretty much as above really. Could be designed so that it could be connected seperately to both z80 and z380, alterable by shifting a jumper, but this seems to be much more trouble than it is worth. IMHO, separate memory & I/O is necessary, the command interchange being via some sort of buffer. Limited access to SAM memory for data interchange only might be in order, but a separate 16/32K buffer for this as well might be better. I'm trying to get Nev's SRAM design from nvg, but currently can not get any of them into a readable form. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 18:56:29 1997 Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:55:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Feb 3, 97 05:21:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb3.185541+0000_gmt.46933-98+93@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2057 Lines: 38 In response to Tim's comments: Well, we've already worked all this out in the Accelerator design that Martin Rookyard and I worked on... basically you shadow the internal memory to do all the gubbins... and the Z380 works quite happily with a 16=bit bus if you tell it to. No problem with the faster speed - we stick a simple state machine between the SAM and the Z380 to arbitrate bus access, -=or=- we don't bother if the wait states on the Z380 are enough (it has a much better handler for them you see). It's not really feasible to have the SAM's own Z80 running in tandem with the Z380 -- for paging reasons mainly (basically, it'd have a lot of problems with the Z80 decided to change the paging around, and completely throw it out of sync -- never mind the performance decrease caused by bus-stealing). Unless, of course, we have the private/public memory system running... which although it seems very nice (and could solve some problems - such as disk access), causes others (such as access to disks which we've not come up with yet, and how to communicate between the two devices). We've already built one prototype based on an 8MHz Z80C, overdriven to 12MHz, with 512k of static ram (not cheap, believe me). Slight problems with synchronisation aside (we didn't have the state machine in situ in this case -- and using a normal Z80 with the SAM at a higher speed *does* require one -- or rather, two, for reasons I won't go into here), this accelerator ran quite happily, running Lemmings at 50 frames per second. The speed increase with the Z380 (of which we have two, but currently no work room to buiild a prototype in) would be phenomenal, even at 18MHz -- it'd run at ~16/17MHz (including sfcreen access here), and would therefore have the equivalent speed of about 32/33MHz compared with the Z80 (the Z380's pipeline and optimised instruction decoding cuts most operations to at least half the time of the Z80's at an equal clock speed). That's about 10 times faster than the existing SAM, give or take. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 18:57:35 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:51:54 GMT Message-Id: <199702031851.SAA10458@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Please Help me with my Homework ;) From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: Sam Users Mailing List X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 876 Lines: 22 On Feb 03, 1997 14:56:02, 'Tim Paveley ' wrote: >Okay, > it's actually coursework, and I'm not after an answer..... > > As part of my course I have to do stats (spit), and as part of >that I've got to do something called multivariate analysis, and as part >of that I've got some coursework. I need to collect a set of data, and >then hope I learn enough to be about to analysis the data I get. We are >allowed to use whatever data we like, so I thought I'd do something to do >with the Sam. Actually it's possible I won't as I have another possible >source of data, but the Sam would be more interesting if I ever decide >I'm happy with the questions I've asked. Stick with the interesting stuff Tim, my reply is on its way. Good luck, and please post the results so we can all see them. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 19:45:47 1997 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:30:38 GMT Message-Id: <199702031930.TAA02955@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1972 Lines: 39 Unaccustomed as I am to talking seriously on this list (well someone has to keep a smile on their face) this is a difficult posting to start. Look, I don't want to take up too much space, but there is a problem coming up that I think we should all try and stop. Many of you will already know that someone called Gavin Smith is planning a new paper based mag aimed at SAM. He emailed me a little while ago asking if I would like to contribute. Politely, I told him no. I also told him that I though it would be better for the SAM world if he used his efforts to support the existing mags. He says he plans to cover things that other mags do not, although he does not say what that could possible be. He also says that he does not want to take business away from the existing mags, but he does not say where his new business is coming from. I get the feeling that this is an ego trip for him. That he has access to cheap printing and to DTP and wants to get his name up-in-lights. But I also feel that the SAM world is at a point where, if the boat is rocked, we could all end up being tipped out into the water without a life-jacket. SamSup is on its last legs, FRED is looking for a caretaker, Format has had to start a PC mag to subsidise the Speccy/Sam side, you get the picture? I've tried, long and hard, to explain the facts of business life to Gavin, but to no end. I'm very worried that if he goes ahead it will be just one more nail in SAM's coffin. Please readers. I know not everyone like Bob or Colin, but at least they bring an air of professionalism to the SAM scene. This is something we need if we are ever to attract new users. Please readers, for the future of SAM, ask Gavin to give up his project and put his efforts and support where it will do the most good, into the existing mags. I'm sorry to have to do this, its sad that the SAM world is not big enough for more mags - but the truth is, ITS NOT. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mon Feb 3 20:20:21 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:17:53 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <15CCE7A7BF5@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2525 Lines: 54 Samsboss, I'm very sorry that you have brought this arguement into the mailing list, but once again I will attempt to answer your comments *sigh* > I get the feeling that this is an ego trip for him. This is no ego trip. Unlike the name "Samsboss" *ahem* :) > That he has access to > cheap printing and to DTP and wants to get his name up-in-lights. Wrong, and you have absolutely no reason to state this. > I've tried, long and hard, to explain the facts of business life to Gavin, > but to no end. I'm very worried that if he goes ahead it will be just one > more nail in SAM's coffin. Wrong and just what makes you think that you have more business sense than me? I'm getting a little sick of your personal comments about me, and now you are moving them into the public. > Please readers. I know not everyone like Bob or Colin, but at least they > bring an air of professionalism to the SAM scene. And what makes you think Sam World won't be a professionally produced magazine? I am not sure why you have taken it upon yourself to decide that my magazine is unfit to be published, but I want to tell you a few things about it. I have had almost every computer you could name - I have experience. I have a number of people, who have volunteered to write columns or features, for which I am very grateful. I have heard no complaints so far, from anyone but Samsboss (who I can only assume as some kind of financial interest in a Sam magazine somewhere...) I intend to publish a good looking, interesting, Sam ONLY magazine. It will be cheap enough so that people can go on buying the magazines that they already do. The magazine itself will cover and support all companies, including magazines, so I can assure you that I am not out to kill off any magazine. My only intention with Sam World is to support the Sam in anyway possible. > I'm sorry to have to do this, its sad that the SAM world is not big enough > for more mags - but the truth is, ITS NOT. How many Sam only magazines can you name? Look, if there is not enough room for another magazine, Sam World magazine will die! If it is not good enough, Sam World will die! I hope people will support my magazine (I am still looking for a few more writers by the way *hint hint* :) I am putting a lot of time, effort and money into a project that I feel will support Sam and ALL of its companies and peoples involved. I see nothing wrong with that. Samsboss, if you want to argue, can we return to this in private? Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 00:25:07 1997 Message-Id: <199702040024.AAA14619@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: A blasphemous request for help ... Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 00:20:39 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 429 Lines: 13 Sorry to be utterly controversial, but I have a - ahem! - PC related problem! I'm currently looking to get hold of a cheap Email collection utility, that will run on a very low-spec machine. Possibly a 286 - under DOS. I am also after a web page designing utility which will run happily under Windoze 3.1, on a 486. And if either of these are available as Shareware or PD, I'd be really happy! So, can anyone help? David L. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 02:05:59 1997 From: Stacey Witney To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-7.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:58:07 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <855007096.62503.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3095 Lines: 78 Go for it Gavin. It seems to me that Samsboss was losing the arguement with you - it's sad and very depressing that he sould go to the list to try and inforce his opinion on everyone else. Lets end this thread now - before it turns into a public slanging match. Now THAT would be bad for the Sam.... -Stacey ---------- > From: Gavin Smith > To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Subject: Re: A Future Problem. > Date: 03 February 1997 8:17 pm > > Samsboss, I'm very sorry that you have brought this arguement into > the mailing list, but once again I will attempt to answer your > comments *sigh* > > > I get the feeling that this is an ego trip for him. > > This is no ego trip. Unlike the name "Samsboss" *ahem* :) > > > That he has access to > > cheap printing and to DTP and wants to get his name up-in-lights. > > Wrong, and you have absolutely no reason to state this. > > > I've tried, long and hard, to explain the facts of business life to Gavin, > > but to no end. I'm very worried that if he goes ahead it will be just one > > more nail in SAM's coffin. > > Wrong and just what makes you think that you have more business sense than > me? I'm getting a little sick of your personal comments about me, and > now you are moving them into the public. > > > Please readers. I know not everyone like Bob or Colin, but at least they > > bring an air of professionalism to the SAM scene. > > And what makes you think Sam World won't be a professionally produced > magazine? I am not sure why you have taken it upon yourself to > decide that my magazine is unfit to be published, but I want to tell > you a few things about it. > > I have had almost every computer you could name - I have experience. > I have a number of people, who have volunteered to write columns or > features, for which I am very grateful. I have heard no complaints so > far, from anyone but Samsboss (who I can only assume as some kind of > financial interest in a Sam magazine somewhere...) I intend to > publish a good looking, interesting, Sam ONLY magazine. It will be > cheap enough so that people can go on buying the magazines that they > already do. The magazine itself will cover and support all companies, > including magazines, so I can assure you that I am not out to kill > off any magazine. My only intention with Sam World is to support the Sam in > anyway possible. > > > I'm sorry to have to do this, its sad that the SAM world is not big enough > > for more mags - but the truth is, ITS NOT. > > How many Sam only magazines can you name? > Look, if there is not enough room for another magazine, Sam World magazine > will die! If it is not good enough, Sam World will die! I hope people > will support my magazine (I am still looking for a few more writers > by the way *hint hint* :) I am putting a lot of time, effort and > money into a project that I feel will support Sam and ALL of its > companies and peoples involved. I see nothing wrong with that. > Samsboss, if you want to argue, can we return to this in private? > > Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 11:31:37 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:30:12 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970204045519_205012068@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 949 Lines: 19 Ok, read lots of postings this morning and I see where the argument is going. For my part, I had expected the SRAM card to come WELL BEFORE the Z380. I think the Z380 is important but, for the moment, we don't need its extra speed. Unless we agree to use a PC to develop the software then we have to use the one common machine we have and that is SAM. So, to use SAM for development we need a more stable platform - this was not my idea but the list's, it was here that there were complaints about there not being a full C compiler, that HDOS did not do what you wanted, and lots of others. Well, to get HDOS ready to run a full C (and lots of other software) we need the SRAM board. The SRAM board is to replace and extend the operating systems of the SAM, as soon as new versions of the ROM/DOS/HDOS are ready there will be a market for the SRAM card - but if we don't get the card ready then there won't be new versions of the software. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 11:48:42 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:48:05 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702041148.AA18139@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1251 Lines: 26 > Ok, read lots of postings this morning and I see where the argument is going. > > For my part, I had expected the SRAM card to come WELL BEFORE the Z380. I > think the Z380 is important but, for the moment, we don't need its extra > speed. Unless we agree to use a PC to develop the software then we have to > use the one common machine we have and that is SAM. So, to use SAM for > development we need a more stable platform - this was not my idea but the > list's, it was here that there were complaints about there not being a full C > compiler, that HDOS did not do what you wanted, and lots of others. > > Well, to get HDOS ready to run a full C (and lots of other software) we need > the SRAM board. Trouble is that with the current memory structure of the SAM it will be a true pain to implement a full C compiler. Buf before writing any new software, there should be a consensus on an object format. > > The SRAM board is to replace and extend the operating systems of the SAM, as > soon as new versions of the ROM/DOS/HDOS are ready there will be a market for > the SRAM card - but if we don't get the card ready then there won't be new > versions of the software. Then you might want to make some prototypes for developers. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 12:00:47 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:00:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <970204045519_205012068@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1882 Lines: 39 On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > For my part, I had expected the SRAM card to come WELL BEFORE the Z380. I > think the Z380 is important but, for the moment, we don't need its extra > speed. Unless we agree to use a PC to develop the software then we have to > use the one common machine we have and that is SAM. So, to use SAM for > development we need a more stable platform - this was not my idea but the > list's, it was here that there were complaints about there not being a full C > compiler, that HDOS did not do what you wanted, and lots of others. The problem of writing a good C compiler has got nothing to do with HDOS. Development of software in general has got nothing to do with HDOS. If we want HDOS to be improved, even that doesn't necessarily mean it has to go on SRAM. Read and understand; given a Z380, we _can_ write software for it with the hardware setup we already have, the PC doesn't enter into it, and that is all there is to say on the matter. The problem with a C compiler on the Z80B, whether we have an SRAM card or not, is that the object code will probably need to be limited to 32K due to the Sam's paging structure. On the Z380 however there is no such problem. > Well, to get HDOS ready to run a full C (and lots of other software) we need > the SRAM board. > > The SRAM board is to replace and extend the operating systems of the SAM, as > soon as new versions of the ROM/DOS/HDOS are ready there will be a market for > the SRAM card - but if we don't get the card ready then there won't be new > versions of the software. > > Bob. I ask again, who will buy the SRAM card if only minimal changes are made to their OS? And though I can't speak for any other programmers on this list, the idea of hacking into the ROM and changing bits of it around is far less appealing to me than of starting afresh on the Z380. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 12:02:36 1997 Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:00:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <9702041148.AA18139@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Feb 4, 97 12:48:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb4.120204+0000_gmt.46938-166+14@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 232 Lines: 7 Actually, I think the first thing to do would be to specify a DOS API and stick to it... I've got a few ideas in this direction regarding mechanisms for doing things... and Simon Goodwin is working on a DOS file structure... Si From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 12:34:06 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:09:54 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Priority: normal In-reply-to: <855007096.62503.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: <93350C705EB@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 317 Lines: 10 > Lets end this thread now - before it turns into a public slanging match. > Now THAT would be bad for the Sam.... It wouldn't be UNUSUAL though, would it..? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 12:54:20 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:57:51 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem and HDOS Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <16D79D707F6@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 999 Lines: 24 > Go for it Gavin. > > It seems to me that Samsboss was losing the arguement with you - it's sad > and very depressing that he sould go to the list to try and inforce his > opinion on everyone else. > > Lets end this thread now - before it turns into a public slanging match. > Now THAT would be bad for the Sam.... Thanks for the support Stacey. I don't intend to turn this into a public slanging match (as I said in my previous mail), although if anyone wants to ask any questions about Sam World, feel free to mail me directly (I think the list has more important things to discuss). On a completely unrelated subject, I wondered if there has been any recent upgrades to the HDOS? The last time I heard of a new version was in April of last year. Anyway, my cheque is in the post for the hard drive interface - which will scarily bring my collection of little white Sam interface boxes up to 5 *gulp* By the way, make sure you get hold of Blitz 3 - its another corker. Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 13:38:54 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:37:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@goshawk.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Z380, SRAM, HDD. In-Reply-To: <97Feb3.185541+0000_gmt.46933-98+93@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 764 Lines: 24 On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > In response to Tim's comments: [snipped] > > That's about 10 times faster than the existing SAM, give or take. > > Simon What will be the estimated costs for the SRAM and Z380 board? I'd like to know as I want to get them both. And what about the HDD interface? I've got a 50meg IDE that I want to connect to my SAM... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 14:03:04 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <4172.199702041401@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:00:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <97Feb4.120204+0000_gmt.46938-166+14@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 4, 97 12:00:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 544 Lines: 13 > > Actually, I think the first thing to do would be to specify a DOS API and > stick to it... Good idea - that's one thing that you can't deny about MS-DOS, the usefulness of the interrupts. I'm not suggesting that we follow exactly the same path (makes us vulnerable to viruses), but a standard call which will accomplish a standard thing, with results etc. known would be excellent. Upgrades would be easy - as long as any new routine performed the same tasks as well as any new ones, there wouldn't be any compatability problems. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 14:14:43 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:19:01 GMT Subject: Re: A blasphemous request for help ... Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <16ED3E9015C@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 584 Lines: 18 > I'm currently looking to get hold of a cheap Email collection utility, that will > run on a very low-spec machine. Possibly a 286 - under DOS. This might be what you are looking for... ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk/pub/packages/simtel/msdos/textutil/rmail41.zip ...or I can mail it to you. > I am also after a web page designing utility which will run happily under Windoze > 3.1, on a 486. Hot Dog Pro at ftp://ftp.sausage.com/pub/hotdog16.exe or WebEdit Pro at ftp://ftp.thegroup.net/webedit/we2std16.zip Both should run under win3.1 and a 486. > David L. Hope that helps, Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 15:03:06 1997 Subject: Re: SOS OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:28:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199701271500.PAA03158@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Jan 27, 97 03:00:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb4.150231+0000_gmt.46950-163+28@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 502 Lines: 14 > >Why not? It's simple. > >IF NOT (IN &FBFE BAND 1) THEN ... > > > Yes but this is hardware based, my point was to seperate the hardware from > the software by making it faster, better and more convenient to use the OS > based solutions. But for applications software, you're never going to need to check for more than one key being pressed at once. Other than that, using a PC keyboard in this way is decidedly messy as tasks go... you have to emulate the keyboard matrix, for a start... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 15:15:46 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <15791.199702041514@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:14:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <97Feb4.150231+0000_gmt.46950-163+28@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Jan 27, 97 03:28:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 176 Lines: 6 > But for applications software, you're never going to need to check for > more than one key being pressed at once. Fairly good chance that you will for games, though. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 16:56:20 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:55:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <97Feb3.185541+0000_gmt.46933-98+93@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 683 Lines: 20 On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > In response to Tim's comments: > > Well, we've already worked all this out in the Accelerator design that > Martin Rookyard and I worked on... basically you shadow the internal > memory to do all the gubbins... and the Z380 works quite happily with a > 16=bit bus if you tell it to. I see what you're saying - but feel that you're addressing a slightly different problem to that which is was being discussed on the list? Re one point above: It's not the 16bit address bus I'm worried about, it is the 8 bit data bus. I have a number of points to raise on this matter, but will post them up later on, as am short of time now. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 19:40:35 1997 Message-ID: <32F7903D.496D@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 19:38:38 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A blasphemous request for help ... References: <199702040024.AAA14619@hermes.clara.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 511 Lines: 19 David Ledbury wrote: > > Sorry to be utterly controversial, but I have a - ahem! - PC related problem! > > I'm currently looking to get hold of a cheap Email collection utility, that will > run on a very low-spec machine. Possibly a 286 - under DOS. > > I am also after a web page designing utility which will run happily under Windoze > 3.1, on a 486. > > And if either of these are available as Shareware or PD, I'd be really happy! > > So, can anyone help? > go to: http://tucows.cableinet.net/ Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:15:29 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:14:18 GMT Message-Id: <199702042014.UAA21666@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 582 Lines: 24 On Feb 04, 1997 06:30:12, 'BrenchleyR@aol.com' wrote: [snip] > >Well, to get HDOS ready to run a full C (and lots of other software) we need >the SRAM board. > >The SRAM board is to replace and extend the operating systems of the SAM, as >soon as new versions of the ROM/DOS/HDOS are ready there will be a market for >the SRAM card - but if we don't get the card ready then there won't be new >versions of the software. Funny, but I thought that was what we were after as well. And it frees memory for other things as well. > >Bob. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:19:19 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:18:30 GMT Message-Id: <199702042018.UAA22146@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2299 Lines: 67 On Feb 04, 1997 12:00:11, 'Andrew Collier ' wrote: >On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> For my part, I had expected the SRAM card to come WELL BEFORE the Z380. I >> think the Z380 is important but, for the moment, we don't need its extra >> speed. Unless we agree to use a PC to develop the software then we have to >> use the one common machine we have and that is SAM. So, to use SAM for >> development we need a more stable platform - this was not my idea but the >> list's, it was here that there were complaints about there not being a full >C >> compiler, that HDOS did not do what you wanted, and lots of others. > >The problem of writing a good C compiler has got nothing to do with HDOS. >Development of software in general has got nothing to do with HDOS. If we >want HDOS to be improved, even that doesn't necessarily mean it has to go >on SRAM. Read and understand; given a Z380, we _can_ write software for it >with the hardware setup we already have, the PC doesn't enter into it, and >that is all there is to say on the matter. > >The problem with a C compiler on the Z80B, whether we have an SRAM card or >not, is that the object code will probably need to be limited to 32K due >to the Sam's paging structure. On the Z380 however there is no such >problem. Have I missed something? I thought the SRAM was to allow for the development software, so that we could then get a Z380 ops system written as the Z380 card was being designed. > >> Well, to get HDOS ready to run a full C (and lots of other software) we need >> the SRAM board. >> >> The SRAM board is to replace and extend the operating systems of the SAM, as >> soon as new versions of the ROM/DOS/HDOS are ready there will be a market >for >> the SRAM card - but if we don't get the card ready then there won't be new >> versions of the software. >> >> Bob. > >I ask again, who will buy the SRAM card if only minimal changes are made >to their OS? And though I can't speak for any other programmers on this >list, the idea of hacking into the ROM and changing bits of it around is >far less appealing to me than of starting afresh on the Z380. But at least it would be more feasable. > >Andrew > -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:20:55 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:19:54 GMT Message-Id: <199702042019.UAA22212@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no, Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 479 Lines: 17 On Feb 04, 1997 12:00:43, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: >Actually, I think the first thing to do would be to specify a DOS API and >stick to it... > >I've got a few ideas in this direction regarding mechanisms for doing >things... and Simon Goodwin is working on a DOS file structure... > >Si -- Scus my ignorant brain - but what is a DOS API when its at home? And I thought we had a good file structure in HDOS. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:24:27 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <16184.199702042023@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:23:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702042019.UAA22212@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:19:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 390 Lines: 10 > Scus my ignorant brain - but what is a DOS API when its at home? Do you do programming? An API is where you call something with specified parameters, and it performs the task for you with documented returns, side-effects etc. Always a good idea. > And I thought we had a good file structure in HDOS. Not from the sound of it, although I must be honest I haven't looked at it myself. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:25:00 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:23:34 GMT Message-Id: <199702042023.UAA22347@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 724 Lines: 23 On Feb 04, 1997 12:09:54, '"James R Curry" ' wrote: >> Lets end this thread now - before it turns into a public slanging match. >> Now THAT would be bad for the Sam.... > >It wouldn't be UNUSUAL though, would it..? > > No, don't retreat James, I for one do not want a public slanging match, just a debate on the question "is the SAM market big enough to fund another magazine?" I think not, the existing ones would suffer and they could just fail as a result, and if that happens - NO MORE SAM! >-- >James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk > >"20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:26:07 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <16317.199702042025@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:25:28 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702042018.UAA22146@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:18:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 854 Lines: 19 > >I ask again, who will buy the SRAM card if only minimal changes are made > >to their OS? And though I can't speak for any other programmers on this > But at least it would be more feasable. I couldn't work out if you were talking about the SRAM card or the os, so I'll cover both... :) I think Andrew has a point - very few people will buy the SRAM card if there are no changes made to anything else. I know I certainly don't have the money to spare. As for the OS... converting an OS is more feasible, yes. However, if you don't want it to run like a dog (witness Win95 for an example - the core code is still 16-bit, just ported over), then it /should/ be written from scratch. This also provides a good opportunity to implement the latest techniques where it might not be possible to do so in a "hacked" version of the existing rom/os. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:28:55 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:28:02 GMT Message-Id: <199702042028.UAA22513@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 613 Lines: 20 On Feb 04, 1997 20:23:23, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >> Scus my ignorant brain - but what is a DOS API when its at home? > >Do you do programming? An API is where you call something with specified >parameters, and it performs the task for you with documented returns, >side-effects etc. Always a good idea. Oh, you meen a subroutine or procedure - why not call it that? > >> And I thought we had a good file structure in HDOS. > >Not from the sound of it, although I must be honest I haven't looked >at it myself. Well it seems to work. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:29:17 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <16387.199702042028@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:28:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702042023.UAA22347@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:23:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 904 Lines: 19 > just a debate on the question "is the SAM market big enough to fund another > magazine?" I think not, the existing ones would suffer and they could just > fail as a result, and if that happens - NO MORE SAM! If the sam market isn't big enough to fund another magazine then it will fail, Gavin will have learnt some things in the mean time, and people may get some more ideas. It also really depends on which market he's aiming at - I don't get SamSupplement so have no idea about that, but both Fred and Format are aimed at very specific markets. I also think you're overreacting a bit to Colin's request for a caretaker - he gave the reason, which is that he doesn't have enough time, and I can see nothing wrong with that. I didn't realise, however, that FormatPC was started to subsidise the other (as we haven't had a rebuttal from Bob I'll just take it that's so), which is interesting. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:32:26 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <16673.199702042031@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:31:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702042028.UAA22513@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:28:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 571 Lines: 16 > >parameters, and it performs the task for you with documented returns, > >side-effects etc. Always a good idea. > Oh, you meen a subroutine or procedure - why not call it that? Because an API is an /interface/, not just a subroutine or procedure. If it will help to think of it like that then go for it, however. :) [HDOS file structure] > >Not from the sound of it, although I must be honest I haven't looked > >at it myself. > Well it seems to work. So does MS-DOS's FAT method, but it's probably not the best way. Remember, works isn't /always/ best. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:36:03 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:35:13 GMT Message-Id: <199702042035.UAA23091@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1693 Lines: 50 On Feb 04, 1997 20:25:28, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >> >I ask again, who will buy the SRAM card if only minimal changes are made >> >to their OS? And though I can't speak for any other programmers on this >> But at least it would be more feasable. > >I couldn't work out if you were talking about the SRAM card or the os, so >I'll cover both... :) > >I think Andrew has a point - very few people will buy the SRAM card if there >are no changes made to anything else. I know I certainly don't have the >money to spare. > >As for the OS... converting an OS is more feasible, yes. However, if you >don't want it to run like a dog (witness Win95 for an example - the core >code is still 16-bit, just ported over), then it /should/ be written from >scratch. This also provides a good opportunity to implement the latest >techniques where it might not be possible to do so in a "hacked" version of >the existing rom/os. > >Paul See what you are saying Paul, but I thought the rework was to ALLOW the development of a new system - but in the process get some advance on the existing SAM. Look at it this way: A) New SRAM card B) Z380 Card. With (A) you get something that carries the existing machine one step further - it allows people to make changes to the ROM/DOS/HDOS. Even if nothing else, some people will get fun out of poking and tweeking the system. With (B) only a very linit few would be able to use the card until thos few had developed software for the masses - fine if you are one of the few - but a bit of a downer if you'r not. I think I would back the SRAM card - but only just. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:42:58 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:41:43 GMT Message-Id: <199702042041.UAA23813@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1448 Lines: 44 On Feb 04, 1997 20:28:15, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >> just a debate on the question "is the SAM market big enough to fund another >> magazine?" I think not, the existing ones would suffer and they could just >> fail as a result, and if that happens - NO MORE SAM! > >If the sam market isn't big enough to fund another magazine then it will fail, >Gavin will have learnt some things in the mean time, and people may get >some more ideas. It also really depends on which market he's aiming at - I >don't get SamSupplement so have no idea about that, but both Fred and Format >are aimed at very specific markets. In many markets I would agree Paul, but we are so small it makes me very worried. > >I also think you're overreacting a bit to Colin's request for a caretaker - >he gave the reason, which is that he doesn't have enough time, and I can >see nothing wrong with that. Mmmm. Must ring Colin on the subject. > >I didn't realise, however, that FormatPC was started to subsidise the other >(as we haven't had a rebuttal from Bob I'll just take it that's so), which >is interesting. Bob's whole reason for launching FormatPC (according to his editorials anyway) was to reduce the burden of overheads on the Z80 side. By the way, has anyone on the list seen FormatPC? The first two issues seemed very good to me and I hope he soon gets it monthly. > >Paul -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 20:53:10 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <12768.199702042050@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:50:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702042041.UAA23813@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:41:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1124 Lines: 25 > >don't get SamSupplement so have no idea about that, but both Fred and > > Format are aimed at very specific markets. > In many markets I would agree Paul, but we are so small it makes me very > worried. How about the other magazines that have failed? Dave Ledbury's, for example, and I'm sure there have been others (the names escape me at the moment!). They didn't damage the market excessively - and you're always assuming that it's going to fail. It may well take off in a big way - and if that means that Format or Fred go, then it'll be a shame, but "survival of the fittest" ;-) > >he gave the reason, which is that he doesn't have enough time, and I can > >see nothing wrong with that. > Mmmm. Must ring Colin on the subject. If you hear a different reason I'd be pleased if you'd tell me... > anyway) was to reduce the burden of overheads on the Z80 side. By the way, > has anyone on the list seen FormatPC? The first two issues seemed very good Saw the first one (bought it at a show), but I can do PC stuff so I didn't bother getting a subscription :) [Most of it was a little/lot basic, TBH.] Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 22:58:09 1997 Message-Id: <199702042257.WAA00799@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Re: Re: Could everyone read this please. Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 22:53:39 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2400 Lines: 62 On 1997/2/4 22:17:21 you wrote: > >On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, David Ledbury wrote: > >> On 1997/2/3 23:58:38 you wrote: >> >software. Either we have the definitive processor now, or we write the >> >operating system twice. None of the other hardware add-ons have quite such >> >implications. >> > >> >Andrew >> >> I agree with you Andrew. Pointless trying to build the road, before >> inventing the wheel! >> >> David L > >Why do you keep replying directly instead of to the list? Perhaps Bob >might start to listen if a few more people agreed with the techy bods. > >You know, he STILL doesn't accept that the Z380 is a priority! > > >Andrew Sorry Andrew! I was a little drunk when I wrote the above, so I forgot the newsgroup address! Whoops! Anyway, everyone seems to be forgetting one thing with the semi-flame war developing over the Z380 v SRAM board.... programmers will have to develop projects before the public can use them. So BOTH need to be really ready at the same time. However, in all honesty, as we need to keep as many SAM users interested as possible in the computer - and therefore the future upgrades we want to see - then we have to give them something meaty to play one. Realisticly, as a user with sweet-FA knowledge of what we are hoping to see, would you be more excited at seeing a modified version of the existing operating system - or what would basically be an accelerator (more-or-less)? Which would be more of immediate "WOW" value to the ordinary SAM user ... if there is such an animal? Let's have a bit of feed-back on this one for a change! It'd be nice to see if someone reads my postings! >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| "Wow, there are TV heads from all over the world here. Which one's| >|Mordic?" | >|"He's Australian. That's him over there with the corks round his | >|hat, the didgerydoo, and the kangaroo on a lead." | >| "Wallaby." | >| "Oh that's very kind - I'll have a dry Martini please." | >| - The Preventers | >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | >| Enter at your own risk | >+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > BTW : The Persona sites due soon ... honest! From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 23:05:19 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:04:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <199702042035.UAA23091@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3491 Lines: 80 On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > On Feb 04, 1997 20:25:28, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: > > >> >I ask again, who will buy the SRAM card if only minimal changes are > made > >> >to their OS? And though I can't speak for any other programmers on this > > >> But at least it would be more feasable. You think so, do you? When was the last time you tried hacking into other people's code? Changing addresses, memory structures, entire sections of the basic... It doesn't so much as bear thinking about. *NB: Point on 'stable' development platforms* The Sam os is about as stable as it is likely to get without a complete rewrite. To alter any part of the existing Rom code would be very likely to mess up other sections of the code with unpredictable results, we'd never ever iron out all the bugs. At least if we start again, out programmer will know exactly what each routine is intended to do. > >I couldn't work out if you were talking about the SRAM card or the os, so > >I'll cover both... :) Well, I thought the SRAM card would be sold with the hacked-up ROMS. > >As for the OS... converting an OS is more feasible, yes. However, if you > >don't want it to run like a dog (witness Win95 for an example - the core > >code is still 16-bit, just ported over), then it /should/ be written from > >scratch. This also provides a good opportunity to implement the latest > >techniques where it might not be possible to do so in a "hacked" version > of > >the existing rom/os. Absolutely true. And if we write for the Z380 we can take advantage of all the extra features of that chip. > See what you are saying Paul, but I thought the rework was to ALLOW the > development of a new system - but in the process get some advance on the > existing SAM. I don't understand why everybody thinks the Sam is currently incapable of working as a development platform. Anyway, it's not an either/or choice, for the Z380 we do need to have some sort of SRAM equivalent, but there's no reason the two can't be designed in conjunction with each other. > Look at it this way: > > A) New SRAM card > > B) Z380 Card. > > With (A) you get something that carries the existing machine one step > further - it allows people to make changes to the ROM/DOS/HDOS. Even if > nothing else, some people will get fun out of poking and tweeking the > system. Only the hackers and coders will be getting the fun of poking the system, yet in B this suddenly turns into a limited few. Hmmmmm. Besides, making the changes to the os involves MUCH more work than several people seem to think. The system will only be at all attractive to most users once this work has been done, which may take some time. And then, it may be difficult to notice the difference - other than in that it is likely to crash more often due to unforseen consequences of fiddling about with existing code. > With (B) only a very linit few would be able to use the card until thos few > had developed software for the masses - fine if you are one of the few - > but a bit of a downer if you'r not. As soon as ANY software is developed (and as I've said in a previous message, we do NOT need to write a full operating system before it is in a usable state) I would estimate that to write a few small games or whatever would possibly even be quicker than to get a hacked rom up and running. And adding a Z380 is a very significant step towards the SamSon goal. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Tue Feb 4 23:42:38 1997 Message-Id: <199702042341.XAA02428@hermes.clara.net> From: David Ledbury To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Re: Could everyone read this please. Organisation: Persona X-Mailer: Atlantis v4.5 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 23:38:13 GMT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1947 Lines: 42 On 1997/2/4 23:25:19 you wrote: > >On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >> On Feb 04, 1997 20:25:28, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >> >> >> >I ask again, who will buy the SRAM card if only minimal changes are >> made >> >> >to their OS? And though I can't speak for any other programmers on this >> >> >> But at least it would be more feasable. > >You think so, do you? When was the last time you tried hacking into other >people's code? Changing addresses, memory structures, entire sections of >the basic... It doesn't so much as bear thinking about. And I don't think Andy Wright could help us much with it either! What's the status with Andy these days? Is he still tinkering with the SAM at all? >*NB: Point on 'stable' development platforms* >The Sam os is about as stable as it is likely to get without a complete >rewrite. To alter any part of the existing Rom code would be very likely >to mess up other sections of the code with unpredictable results, we'd >never ever iron out all the bugs. At least if we start again, out >programmer will know exactly what each routine is intended to do. Just think how compact the original ROM is. The code is not exactly friendly to follow, so it would take a fair amount of time. Perhaps better spent on developing more important code more relevant to the Z380. Just think of the improvement on mathematical abilities alone. >> See what you are saying Paul, but I thought the rework was to ALLOW the >> development of a new system - but in the process get some advance on the >> existing SAM. > >I don't understand why everybody thinks the Sam is currently incapable of >working as a development platform. Anyway, it's not an either/or choice, >for the Z380 we do need to have some sort of SRAM equivalent, but there's >no reason the two can't be designed in conjunction with each other. Which echo's what I just said in my last group mailing. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 08:09:40 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:08:50 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702050808.AA21089@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1435 Lines: 36 > See what you are saying Paul, but I thought the rework was to ALLOW the > development of a new system - but in the process get some advance on the > existing SAM. > > Look at it this way: > > A) New SRAM card > > B) Z380 Card. > > With (A) you get something that carries the existing machine one step > further - it allows people to make changes to the ROM/DOS/HDOS. Even if > nothing else, some people will get fun out of poking and tweeking the > system. > > With (B) only a very linit few would be able to use the card until thos few > had developed software for the masses - fine if you are one of the few - > but a bit of a downer if you'r not. > > I think I would back the SRAM card - but only just. This debate seems to have split into two camps; the sceptical one and the enthusiastical one. Let's look realistic on the SRAM. Who want's to fork out at least 15 punds (my speculations on the price) for a gadget that gives you nothing but some extra free RAM (for the common user)? And when you have considered that, consider this. Somebody have to write the software. It is basically the same amount of work both for A and for B. So, somebody have to do something twice. Why not design an Z380 (or whatever, arm perhaps :) board with the SRAM on-board. The extra cost will be margianl. Work on the designs Simon and ...err...have done. With more people into the project things will speed up. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:08:01 1997 Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:06:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199702042019.UAA22212@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:19:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb5.100722+0000_gmt.46957-164+63@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1206 Lines: 29 re: DOS API and HDOS file structure a DOS API is a DOS Application Programmers Interface -- in other words, it's the bit that people who write programs see (if they're writing in C or assembly, that is -- BASIC uses the LOAD commands, but BASIC would use the API to provide its functionality). If we can fix this, and make it good -- with commands for reserving areas of memory included (very necessary) then we should be able to start writing programs which use disk storage while they're working. No longer will it be impossible to convert an MSDOS program to the SAM because the software you're using balks (or rather, crashes) when the file's longer than about 480K. --- HDOS file structure: While Nev hasn't put any documentation out on the structure (although *some* of it *is* documneted in the HDOS manual), from what I gather, it's not altogether perfect. WHat we really need is an INODE structure -- this allows a lot of flexibility in future programs. Though having said that, a non-restricted in size INODE structure would be a boon. Simon ps. Simon Goodwin's working at it on his own, in his own time, and minding his own business while doing it... so what's the problem? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:12:43 1997 Subject: Re: A Future Problem.t To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:10:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199702042023.UAA22347@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:23:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb5.101125+0000_gmt.46957-165+57@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1118 Lines: 19 > No, don't retreat James, I for one do not want a public slanging match, > just a debate on the question "is the SAM market big enough to fund another > magazine?" I think not, the existing ones would suffer and they could just > fail as a result, and if that happens - NO MORE SAM! There's always room for another magazine, as long as you fill a currently unfilled niche. This is why BOAI has been pretty successful, if plagued with a few problems. Issue 3's out very soon btw, and then we're going to be able to stick to the scheduled times for each issue... for a start, we've bought new DTP software (100 quid from one's own pocket does tend to smart a little, but it's all in a good cause) so the probs we had with issue 2 won't be in evidence, and we'll be able to set up stock templates for putting the mag together, which we can use from issue to issue. So far the mag has been produced on 4 separate DTP packages, meaning that I've had to restart from scratch each time. In the past we've used Word 6, Pagemaker 5, Quark Express 4 (I think... may have been 3)... and now MS Publisher 97. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:14:58 1997 Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:12:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199702042028.UAA22513@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:28:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb5.101341+0000_gmt.46957-163+87@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 574 Lines: 13 > >Do you do programming? An API is where you call something with specified > >parameters, and it performs the task for you with documented returns, > >side-effects etc. Always a good idea. > > Oh, you meen a subroutine or procedure - why not call it that? Because it isn't one. Not necessarily anyway. It's an interface. The DOS hookcode structure is an API -- though a very limited one. The BASIC jump table is an API. So the term far outstretches the simple definitions of subroutines or procedures -- because it ain't necessarily limited to just them. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:17:15 1997 Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:15:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199702042035.UAA23091@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 4, 97 08:35:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <97Feb5.101558+0000_gmt.46948-163+88@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 481 Lines: 15 > B) Z380 Card. > > With (B) only a very linit few would be able to use the card until thos few > had developed software for the masses - fine if you are one of the few - > but a bit of a downer if you'r not. *WRONG* the card would accelerate EXISTING software - including BASIC programs to the speed of current M/C programs (well, thereabouts)... It would also allow people to use it in a "z380 native" mode, rather than in its "fast Z80" mode... Please yourself. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:34:53 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:33:55 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702051033.AA21668@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem.t X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 351 Lines: 9 > There's always room for another magazine, as long as you fill a currently > unfilled niche. This is why BOAI has been pretty successful, if plagued > with a few problems. Issue 3's out very soon btw, and then we're going to .. Talking of which. You once said something about arrangements for forreigners. How is that part coming along? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:37:41 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970205104335.00906344@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 10:43:35 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 559 Lines: 14 At 09:08 05/02/97 +0100, you wrote: >Why not design an Z380 (or whatever, arm perhaps :) board with the SRAM >on-board. The extra cost will be margianl. Work on the designs Simon and >...err...have done. With more people into the project things will speed >up. Martin Rookyard's the other brain on the accelerator project :) (actually, he's done the most part of the actual electronics design, I've done the concept work that it's all based on -- interestingly, both of us think that the other has done more work on the design... but there you go). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:37:42 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970205104333.0091090c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 10:43:33 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 332 Lines: 12 At 23:38 04/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >And I don't think Andy Wright could help us much with it either! > >What's the status with Andy these days? Is he still tinkering with the SAM at all? Yep - according to Simon Goodwin, he's still working on stuff in his spare time -- not that he gets any (like most people these days). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:40:36 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970205104635.00910470@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 10:46:35 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A Future Problem.t Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 593 Lines: 17 At 11:33 05/02/97 +0100, you wrote: >Status: > >> There's always room for another magazine, as long as you fill a currently >> unfilled niche. This is why BOAI has been pretty successful, if plagued >> with a few problems. Issue 3's out very soon btw, and then we're going to >.. > >Talking of which. You once said something about arrangements for >forreigners. How is that part coming along? Stefan Drissen recently sent a cheque which apparently went down well with Maria Rookyard... so if Stefan's listening, would he like to explain the procedure/exactly what he *sent*? ;) SImon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:45:56 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:43:39 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702051043.AA21675@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 783 Lines: 25 > At 09:08 05/02/97 +0100, you wrote: > >Why not design an Z380 (or whatever, arm perhaps :) board with the SRAM > >on-board. The extra cost will be margianl. Work on the designs Simon and > >...err...have done. With more people into the project things will speed > >up. > > Martin Rookyard's the other brain on the accelerator project :) Yeah! His name escaped me there... > > (actually, he's done the most part of the actual electronics design, I've > done the concept work that it's all based on -- interestingly, both of us > think that the other has done more work on the design... but there you go). But how much more work and money is needed for a a) fully functional prototype, 2) a piece of harware for developers to work on, and III) a saleable product ? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 10:49:51 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:46:31 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702051046.AA21678@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem.t X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 378 Lines: 10 > >Talking of which. You once said something about arrangements for > >forreigners. How is that part coming along? > > Stefan Drissen recently sent a cheque which apparently went down well with > Maria Rookyard... so if Stefan's listening, would he like to explain the > procedure/exactly what he *sent*? ;) Or...I guess I could buy the mags at the show in April? :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 11:48:34 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199702051148.LAA08924@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: OS mods To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:48:05 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1888 Lines: 40 > Before we go any further we need to get the SRAM card off the > ground. Remember that this is to go on the back of the SAM to > allow us to get the ROM/MasterDOS/HDOS integrated and working so > that we can then think about future development. We seem, > some where along the line to have lost direction. SAMSON seems to > have become the first goal (rather than the ultimate one) and all > the talk is of radically new operating systems, GUIs, CLIs, mega > graphics, advanced processors and all the rest. > > Sorrry, but we have to solve one problem at a time. [SNIP] > Bob. If we must bodge the current ROM then let us do it properly! (there is logic there somewhere!). I while ago I suggested what you seem to have described here as a 'radically new operating system' in a post entitled SOS OS's. This is not the case, it is not realy that new, it just extends the current SAM logic about a seperate DOS, into a more durable, generalised concept. I suggested Key and cursor OS modules (drivers) that should be used for most interactions from the user, in a bodged version this can be shelved and postponed. The floating point calculator module can also be shelved and left as it is. So can the file processing and strict output types. We need a new standard DOS type. Why not specify the one we intend to use in the new machine now and create a (perhaps simplified) Z80 version NOW? To be quite honest it would probably be wise to have the DOS in the final machine living on the current Z80, able to work in parallel, on memory temporaraly stolen from the other processors. Especialy considering the current disc hardware. We also need a decent Memory allocation OS, why not build one now? I also stated that a finder OS would be needed to select the desired OSs in the final machine. Why not create this and bodge it so that it always points to the same DOS etc...? Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 12:15:42 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. References: <199702042019.UAA22212@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Lee Willis Date: 05 Feb 1997 12:13:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com's message of Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:19:54 GMT Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 701 Lines: 25 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) writes: > > On Feb 04, 1997 12:00:43, 'Simon Cooke ' > wrote: > > >Actually, I think the first thing to do would be to specify a DOS API and > >stick to it... > > > >I've got a few ideas in this direction regarding mechanisms for doing > >things... and Simon Goodwin is working on a DOS file structure... > > > > Scus my ignorant brain - but what is a DOS API when its at home? > And I thought we had a good file structure in HDOS. > SAMDOS a good file structure? That's the funniest thing I've heard in ages! > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Lee. Found a Mammoth? Let us know on 0990-808080 ...... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 12:19:19 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. References: <199702042019.UAA22212@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Lee Willis Date: 05 Feb 1997 12:17:47 +0000 In-Reply-To: Lee Willis's message of 05 Feb 1997 12:13:13 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 378 Lines: 16 Lee Willis writes: > > > > Scus my ignorant brain - but what is a DOS API when its at home? > > And I thought we had a good file structure in HDOS. > > > > SAMDOS a good file structure? That's the funniest thing I've heard in > ages! > Sorry, I take it all back, I mis-read it the first time around ... Lee. [Embarrassed to say the least] From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 12:39:30 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199702051246.MAA09412@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS MAOS To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:46:56 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 7088 Lines: 164 >> I propose the following notation for the SAMSON table >> 00=Unused >> 10=LowPriorityStorage >> 20=Utilities >> 40=BASIC >> 60=OS >> 80=GUI >> A0=Other Code >> C0=Screen >> E0=RAM disc >> The original table only had entries for the machines RAM, >> but the SAMSON cannot be that simple: >> +0 to the numbers above for RAM pages; >> +1 to the numbers above for Flash pages; >> +2 to the numbers above for ROM pages. >> And in addition to the increments above, perhaps: >> +5 for shared memory between a number of machines. > > Yuck... who allocates the numbers then? THis is the way that the > memory allocation system should *not* work. Numbers housld be > requested and allocated dynamically, at program > initialisation/load time. See the Macintosh toolkit for detials > (if you want to(. ? I allocated the numbers! Thats it. There are no other numbers that will need allocating in the near future! I think you lost me on that comment! Of course, The actual numbers used internally in the module can be anything at all since I proposed the module is accessed as one of my OS modules (drivers) through a series of (possibly vector based) entry points and MAVARS. The first MAOSs will probably use the numbers above in the actual table, but there is no reason why they cannot be allocated any numbers or any structure internally. As with all OS modules the user will only ever use the specified entry points and not look at the internal contents, mainly because the entry points will be so well chosen, much easier & faster a than any access method the programmer will want to write. >> So, both the BASIC operating system and BASIC programs in >> memory tend to have page allocation numbers in the &40-&43 range, >> both the GUI operating system and applications have numbers in >> the &80s etc. > > It's a pointless system -- why do you need to identify which > programs are using what memory block in terms of identifier > numbers? Not only that, but what happens if you run the same > program twice? How does it work out which memory pages it can > remove from the tbale and which it can't? > Another strange question! Why is it done in the this way in the current SAM? Because we want to allocate memory! We dont want to use memory that is already in use! We dont want to ask every single application, program and operating system what memory it is using every time we want to allocate some to a new memory for any purpose. Run the same program twice? Remove pages from the table? Pages are only removed from the table if the 'remove stated pages from the table' type of entry point is called! The module is not intelegent! Intelegence for such a thing is a VERY VERY bad thing! -ever touched Windows'95? ( No, but I know a man who has! ). Giving the different types of memory different identifying numbers is an obvious, and necessary thing to do. How would you like to try any load a program into ROM or flash just because it is marked as unused! We need to include the ROM in the table (unlike it is at the moment) as from the sounds of it, our ROMs could get quite messy! The different memory usages want different identifing numbers for many reasons, including: 1) So we can see what is going on. This is expecially important when messing about with the flash. 2) So we can implement the priority system I mentioned next: >> The interesting thing here is that it would be quite simple to >> design the entry points to give various priorities to the type of >> allocations destroyed to make room for the new ones. So, there is >> no need to deallocate all the memory used by your GUI >> applications just because you enter BASIC for a second to look >> something up, you can usually just pop straight back to the GUI >> and find you don't need to bother re-loading the applications >> you where using. But if your BASIC program got a bit big BASIC >> would enter the Allocation OS at such a point as to first look >> for unused pages, and then perhaps pick on the, 'relativelyunused' >> GUI ones because of the entry point used. > >You're talking about a Mac OS/Windows method here... NAmely dynamic >resource loading/dynamically linked library system. > No. I am not. I think I understand where you lost me now. These systems are crap! If you thought I was tring to rip-off one of these systems then you had every right to get worried about my sanity! Lets take a look at 'Mac Multiprogramming' rubbish. They allocate memory on a '1 label for 1 program' basis. If you load Netscape, MacX, The Finder, Word, MacHTTP 2.2, etc... Then all are allocated a unique identifier in the 'Memory Mapper' as they call it. Now look at the types I suggested above, are there any GUI application mentioned?... No! All GUI stuff comes under the heading of GUI stuff and is given a number of &80. It the GUI program that needs to know what applications it is running, as far as the MAOS is concerned they are all the same. Allthough, you have spoit the surprise I was going to mention later when it is more important and relevent. Because of the logic of the entry points to be used, it would be nice if higher level ones are included. To illustrate my point take the case of the current SAM, when trying to allocate a utilities point. At the moment you have to scan backwards through the MAtabel looking for a utilities page; Scan back through the utilities page looking for a slot; If none is found, continue looking in the MAtable; if there are no free slots in all of memory then allocate a new utilities page and use it. Because of the work involved no one bothers with using utility pages in everyday programs. A single hook code could be provided in the MAOS for this utilities allocation, which could, perhaps be vectored and handled in another OS module. This would be applicable to the GUI and Low priority storage devices. The actual calls would probably be handeled externally. The GUI one may be vectored to the GUI. >> A new concept in the table is the entry I have labelled >> 'lowPriorityStorage', If there are no unused pages, this is the >> next type of page the OS will usually pick on (unless of course >> it is asked to allocate lowPriorityStorage^R pages). This type >> would usually be used as a cache type memory for the web browser >> to remember the most recently visited sites, an extended keyboard >> memory, etc... Basically all of the stuff that's nice to have >> but is no important enough to give an out of memory problem. > > Why not put priority values and locks in the memory allocation > structure, so that you can have any memory "tag" ID, with an > associated priority, ability for it to be relocated in memory, > handles (dereferenced pointers), etc? Not a bad idea! At least I have helped inspire some progress! Even if I am not taken seriously. I think having one specifically of type lowpriority storage is a good idea though, then there can be a standard format of GENERIC less-important stored data internally. C9 Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 13:16:38 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:20:55 +0000 Subject: Re: SOS OSs Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <16872EA7683@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 773 Lines: 17 > > But for applications software, you're never going to need to check for > > more than one key being pressed at once. > > Fairly good chance that you will for games, though. What about MIDI software where the keyboard is used as a, like, musical keyboard. Don't say it hasn't been done: I personally own a crappy PC midi thing which tries to read chords and every so often doesn't quite work too well as the keyboard matrix sucks. Probably be a bit sucky on the current SAM keyboard, too. Is there any way to get a keyboard with unique signals for each key? Not exactly economical, but certainly acurate. --- dave --- If you can read this message your browser does not support frames, video, sound, mime, color, text or any of that irratating acidic jelly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 13:43:37 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:42:03 GMT+0 Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2562 Lines: 52 > >It wouldn't be UNUSUAL though, would it..? > > > > > > No, don't retreat James, I for one do not want a public slanging match, > just a debate on the question "is the SAM market big enough to fund another > magazine?" I think not, the existing ones would suffer and they could just > fail as a result, and if that happens - NO MORE SAM! > Kept pretty quiet on this one up till now but I feel I must have my tuppence worth. When the SAM was first released, millions of magazine came out for it all promising something different and really, only a handful survived. The others died off, or the authors moved on to new pastures or something. My point is this, the SAM was a stable factor throughout this period - it kept going whilst all these magazines fell apart. If there is no market for SAM World then it will flop - basic Economics really isn't it? And as for that wondeful line - contribute to exisiting SAM magazines...well for starters SAM World is proposed to be paper based ( I think ) thus ruling out any kind of inroads into Fred and SamSupp territory. Nothing will affect FORMAT because the people who buy that buy it to get all the latest SAM news from "West Coast Computers" (ha!) etc. Based on an Idea caters for things completely different to the stuff that SAM World proposes. And as for samsboss saying that Gavin is on an ego trip...I think that's a little harsh. Nobody can call themselves famous in the SAM world - we're just a bunch of friends all on a similar level really. Believe me, running SAM2Sam, which incidentally found its own market place and did not affect anything that FRED or SAMSupp were doing at the time, was no ego trip - it was built up out of a genuine desire to provide information taht was not widely available to the SAM world. And for two whole years it worked. So where has YOUR contribution to the SAM world been oh mysterious one? Apart from a few biting comments on this list nobody knows what you've done. Mazybe I'm wrong and maybe you have done a great deal to support the SAM but if that is the case, I can't see how you can make such negative comments towards someone else who wants to do much teh same thing. Sorry for going on about this, but I found samsboss' letter quite offensive the other day and I thought I'd just take a couple of minutes out to support what I see as a worthwhile project. Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 13:52:42 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <7562.199702051351@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:51:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Johnna Teare" at Feb 5, 97 01:42:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 305 Lines: 9 > Sorry for going on about this, but I found samsboss' letter quite > offensive the other day and I thought I'd just take a couple of > minutes out to support what I see as a worthwhile project. Not at all - I would have said exactly the same thing, only I couldn't think of a way to put it! :) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 13:54:41 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <7809.199702051353@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem.t To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:53:26 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9702051046.AA21678@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Feb 5, 97 11:46:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 119 Lines: 4 > Or...I guess I could buy the mags at the show in April? :) Someone else to remember to plagu^H^H^H^H^H find... >:) From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 14:00:28 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <8556.199702051359@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:59:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <97Feb5.101558+0000_gmt.46948-163+88@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 5, 97 10:15:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 294 Lines: 6 > *WRONG* the card would accelerate EXISTING software - including BASIC > programs to the speed of current M/C programs (well, thereabouts)... This being something that I think people on here have forgotten! The only talk here seems to have been on using it as the core for a new machine... From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 14:04:06 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <8742.199702051401@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem.t To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:01:06 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <97Feb5.101125+0000_gmt.46957-165+57@sabre-wulf.nvg.unit.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 5, 97 10:10:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 633 Lines: 17 > unfilled niche. This is why BOAI has been pretty successful, if plagued > with a few problems. Issue 3's out very soon btw, and then we're going to Good, good :) How soon is "very soon"? Should it be sent to university or direct to home, is what I'm wondering... > we've bought new DTP software (100 quid from one's own pocket does tend > to smart a little, but it's all in a good cause) so the probs we had with ! Very generous. > I've had to restart from scratch each time. In the past we've used Word > 6, Pagemaker 5, Quark Express 4 (I think... may have been 3)... and now > MS Publisher 97. So which was best...? From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 15:06:18 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970205151153.00921bfc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:11:53 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS MAOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 9455 Lines: 200 >> It's a pointless system -- why do you need to identify which >> programs are using what memory block in terms of identifier >> numbers? Not only that, but what happens if you run the same >> program twice? How does it work out which memory pages it can >> remove from the tbale and which it can't? >> >Another strange question! Why is it done in the this way in the >current SAM? > >Because we want to allocate memory! We dont want to use memory that >is already in use! We dont want to ask every single application, >program and operating system what memory it is using every time we >want to allocate some to a new memory for any purpose. No... you misunderstnad what I mean. Right: you have a certain number of page numbers. Now, in the existing SAM system, these numbers are arbitrarily allocated to applications by the programmer. This means that if you load, say, COMET, it allocates itself a whole heap of &B0 marked pages. Joe Q Programmer comes along and things "wow... for my scratch area in my paint utility, I'll allocate pages using &B0!"... next thing you know, if you're running both at the same time (not impossible, especially if you're developing using COMET), your paint program has deallocated all "obviously" old instances of its memory allocation left over from the last time it "must have been" run, and COMET dies horribly. This is the problem with giving numbers for "screen memory", "BASIC memory", "OS Memory module memory"... especially with the current system, which only has a space of 255 different possible values. Result: chaos. > >Run the same program twice? Remove pages from the table? Pages are >only removed from the table if the 'remove stated pages from the >table' type of entry point is called! The module is not intelegent! >Intelegence for such a thing is a VERY VERY bad thing! -ever touched >Windows'95? ( No, but I know a man who has! ). No -- imagine a program which does this: Look for instance of this program running already. If it can't find one, deallocate all pages marked with "0x??", which is its page tag -- if there are any, the last instance of the program obviously crashed or something, but the system survived. So to make sure you're running a clean system, you deallocate them, and then reallocate yourself some memory -- which might give you more contiguous space to work with anyway. Hey presto -- nothing to do with the memory allocation module (let's be standard here and call it a memory manager, please?), but it still causes *major* problems. >Giving the different types of memory different identifying numbers >is an obvious, and necessary thing to do. How would you like to try >any load a program into ROM or flash just because it is marked as >unused! We need to include the ROM in the table (unlike it is at the >moment) as from the sounds of it, our ROMs could get quite messy! Quite simple: you don't treat ROM or FLASH as memory in the tables -- it's pointless doing so in fact. FLASH memory acts in a considerably different way to normal memory -- for one, you can't arbitrarily reprogram areas -- you have to do it in blocks of (last time I looked) 4K minimum. These are wiped, and then reprogrammed. ROM can't be programmed at all. So why include it in the memory management system at all? >The different memory usages want different identifing numbers for >many reasons, including: > >1) So we can see what is going on. This is expecially important when >messing about with the flash. Personally I'd prefer to see a registration system working, namely because you can then find out exactly which resources a specific program is using, and if necessary, kill the program and release all of the resources. Incredibly handy if the programmer's lazy in fact, because when the program exists, you can then clean up after it. >2) So we can implement the priority system I mentioned next: It's implementable in other ways. >>> The interesting thing here is that it would be quite simple to >>> design the entry points to give various priorities to the type of >>> allocations destroyed to make room for the new ones. So, there is >>> no need to deallocate all the memory used by your GUI >>> applications just because you enter BASIC for a second to look >>> something up, you can usually just pop straight back to the GUI >>> and find you don't need to bother re-loading the applications >>> you where using. But if your BASIC program got a bit big BASIC >>> would enter the Allocation OS at such a point as to first look >>> for unused pages, and then perhaps pick on the, 'relativelyunused' >>> GUI ones because of the entry point used. >> >>You're talking about a Mac OS/Windows method here... NAmely dynamic >>resource loading/dynamically linked library system. >> >No. I am not. >I think I understand where you lost me now. These systems are crap! >If you thought I was tring to rip-off one of these systems then you >had every right to get worried about my sanity! No, I think you're mixing and matching about 4 or 5 different views of memory management in a not very lucid manner. >Lets take a look at 'Mac Multiprogramming' rubbish. >They allocate memory on a '1 label for 1 program' basis. If you load >Netscape, MacX, The Finder, Word, MacHTTP 2.2, etc... Then all are >allocated a unique identifier in the 'Memory Mapper' as they call >it. Yes, sounds perfectly fine and logical to me. >Now look at the types I suggested above, are there any GUI >application mentioned?... >No! Which is actually a big problem. For cleaning up purposes as much as anything else. >All GUI stuff comes under the heading of GUI stuff and is given a >number of &80. It the GUI program that needs to know what >applications it is running, as far as the MAOS is concerned they are >all the same. *WHY*? >Allthough, you have spoit the surprise I was going to mention later >when it is more important and relevent. Because of the logic of the >entry points to be used, it would be nice if higher level ones are >included. To illustrate my point take the case of the current SAM, >when trying to allocate a utilities point. > >At the moment you have to scan backwards through the MAtabel looking >for a utilities page; >Scan back through the utilities page looking for a slot; >If none is found, continue looking in the MAtable; >if there are no free slots in all of memory then allocate a new >utilities page and use it. > >Because of the work involved no one bothers with using utility pages >in everyday programs. A single hook code could be provided in the >MAOS for this utilities allocation, which could, perhaps be >vectored and handled in another OS module. The reason nobody uses utility allocation pages is because they don't need to use that system -- the only things that *do* use it tend to be mouse drivers, etc. Which is fair enough. Other programs just block-allocate pages, or don't bother at all -- dangerous, but games can do that anyway, because they're not going to go back to BASIC without a reset. (In a perfect world, of course, this wouldn't be the case). >This would be applicable to the GUI and Low priority storage >devices. The actual calls would probably be handeled externally. The >GUI one may be vectored to the GUI. Let me specify a Memory Manager API, and then let's see what you think of the way I see this system. > >> Why not put priority values and locks in the memory allocation >> structure, so that you can have any memory "tag" ID, with an >> associated priority, ability for it to be relocated in memory, >> handles (dereferenced pointers), etc? > >Not a bad idea! At least I have helped inspire some progress! Even >if I am not taken seriously. The thing is, I've been working on memory management systems on the SAM on and off for over 2 years now, for use in my Terminate system. Until now, I had a few conceptual problems in trying to get around the paging system. Most of my ideas have come from the Mac system, with some of my experience in programming on others taken into account, as well as reading Don Knuth's Art of Programming, and the C programming Language by K&R. >I think having one specifically of type lowpriority storage is a >good idea though, then there can be a standard format of GENERIC >less-important stored data internally. Let me tell you the most important things about memory management, as I see them: 1. Accountability. For clean-up purposes, each allocated block must be able to be uniquely identified with its creator. Once the creator dies, the memory for these is freed, as well as any other system resources. 2. Feedback. If priority systems are to be used, then you must be able to inform the programs that were using them that the memory they've allocated is being requested for use as something else -- as much to keep them in sync with the system as anything else. If you don't, you get a hell of a lot of crashes very quickly. 3. Flexibility & Efficiency. Memory must be allocatable in both external and internal memory areas (sure, for the Z380 system this isn't a problem, but it's still needed here), mustn't be restricted to a page basis (let's see... you allocate all this space for static resources, and then you want to allocate some space for file handling... Sure, open another page -- you'll have at least 16k ready and waiting... but very quickly you'd run out. So memory allocation mustn't be limited to page aligned / page width operation). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 15:06:19 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970205151156.0091e710@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:11:56 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A Future Problem.t Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2552 Lines: 54 At 14:01 05/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: RO > > >> unfilled niche. This is why BOAI has been pretty successful, if plagued >> with a few problems. Issue 3's out very soon btw, and then we're going to > >Good, good :) How soon is "very soon"? Should it be sent to university or >direct to home, is what I'm wondering... It'll be at the printers within the next fortnight, or my name's Susan. >> we've bought new DTP software (100 quid from one's own pocket does tend >> to smart a little, but it's all in a good cause) so the probs we had with > >! Very generous. Well, I had a choice: either ditch what I feel is a very good magazine, and one which can help in keeping the SAM going by providing avenues for developers to advance their knowledge, or brace myself and shell out for the software. So I braced myself and shelled out for the software. Ouch :) >> I've had to restart from scratch each time. In the past we've used Word >> 6, Pagemaker 5, Quark Express 4 (I think... may have been 3)... and now >> MS Publisher 97. > >So which was best...? Issue 1 used Word 6 for ease of use, but not for the results -- couldn't do booklets, couldn't get consistent results across a number of printers, had problems with its postscript output at times. Had to be printed at 600dpi on A4, cut & pasted, then scanned at 1200 dpi, and reprinted at 600dpi en masse. Issue 2 used Pagemaker 5 -- nice system, most importantly it could do booklets, and it was quite reasonable -- except it did its own postscript generation, which the printers couldn't handle properly -- thus the problems. Experimented with using Quark Express for a while. it couldn't do booklets without a lot of work, and wasn't in any way as intuitive or easy to use as Pagemaker. Also, it crashed all the time. No where near as advanced as the Mac version either, and as I didn't have a Mac... Issue 3 is now put together using MS Publisher 97. Nowhere near as advanced as their new Office 97 / Word 97 suite, but integrates quite happily with it, so I can write the text in Word 97, do most of the graphics in it, and just plug them into the document. Automatically creates borders, has wizards for the thickos who want to just let the program do it all, and is generally quite nice. Only real problem so far is that there's the odd function you can't easily modify from the user interface -- it definitely needs bringing into line with the rest of their '97 stuff -- even if just for its print-out capabilities (which are the one reason I really really like it). Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 15:18:31 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <16103.199702051517@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS MAOS To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:16:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970205151153.00921bfc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 5, 97 03:11:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 670 Lines: 15 Agree with the rest of it - just a little note ... > > 2. Feedback. If priority systems are to be used, then you must be able to > inform the programs that were using them that the memory they've allocated > is being requested for use as something else -- as much to keep them in sync You should then /wait/ for that program to move the data in the memory it was using somewhere else, whether to disk or whatever. (Provide virtual memory facilities in the OS? Would be easier.) Otherwise, when the high-priority task has finished (if I understand you right), the run that /was/ running is going to find its workspace full of rubbish, and not be very happy... Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 16:35:48 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970205164217.010416f8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 16:42:17 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SOS MAOS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 954 Lines: 24 At 15:16 05/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: RO > > >Agree with the rest of it - just a little note ... > >> >> 2. Feedback. If priority systems are to be used, then you must be able to >> inform the programs that were using them that the memory they've allocated >> is being requested for use as something else -- as much to keep them in sync > >You should then /wait/ for that program to move the data in the memory it >was using somewhere else, whether to disk or whatever. (Provide virtual >memory facilities in the OS? Would be easier.) Otherwise, when the high-priority >task has finished (if I understand you right), the run that /was/ running is >going to find its workspace full of rubbish, and not be very happy... Yep, that's the idea... the OS requests the memory to be freed, waits for an acknowledgement (or denial), and then goes ahead and does it... it'll go up the entire list of priorities to do so -- least essential first. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 18:19:53 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:18:41 GMT Message-Id: <199702051818.SAA20874@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 804 Lines: 32 On Feb 05, 1997 12:13:13, 'Lee Willis ' wrote: >samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) writes: >> >> On Feb 04, 1997 12:00:43, 'Simon Cooke ' >> wrote: >> >> >Actually, I think the first thing to do would be to specify a DOS API and >> >stick to it... >> > >> >I've got a few ideas in this direction regarding mechanisms for doing >> >things... and Simon Goodwin is working on a DOS file structure... >> > >> >> Scus my ignorant brain - but what is a DOS API when its at home? >> And I thought we had a good file structure in HDOS. >> > >SAMDOS a good file structure? That's the funniest thing I've heard in >ages! > > Who mentioned SAMDOS? Not I... >> > >Lee. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 18:21:05 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:20:11 GMT Message-Id: <199702051820.SAA20973@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 654 Lines: 25 On Feb 05, 1997 12:17:47, 'Lee Willis ' wrote: >Lee Willis writes: > >> > >> > Scus my ignorant brain - but what is a DOS API when its at home? >> > And I thought we had a good file structure in HDOS. >> > >> >> SAMDOS a good file structure? That's the funniest thing I've heard in >> ages! >> > >Sorry, I take it all back, I mis-read it the first time around ... > Sorry, I take back my reply then, must learn to read all items and THEN answer... But you point was valid, even if you did mis-read. > >Lee. >[Embarrassed to say the least] -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 18:36:22 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:35:25 GMT Message-Id: <199702051835.SAA21510@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3947 Lines: 88 On Feb 05, 1997 13:42:03, 'Johnna Teare ' wrote: > >> >It wouldn't be UNUSUAL though, would it..? >> > >> > >> >> No, don't retreat James, I for one do not want a public slanging match, >> just a debate on the question "is the SAM market big enough to fund another >> magazine?" I think not, the existing ones would suffer and they could just >> fail as a result, and if that happens - NO MORE SAM! >> >Kept pretty quiet on this one up till now but I feel I must have my >tuppence worth. > >When the SAM was first released, millions of magazine came out for it >all promising something different and really, only a handful >survived. The others died off, or the authors moved on to new >pastures or something. My point is this, the SAM was a stable factor >throughout this period - it kept going whilst all these magazines >fell apart. If there is no market for SAM World then it will flop - >basic Economics really isn't it? The problem is that the market is a lot smaller now. Take two people and put them in a room, give only just enough food for one to just about survive. If, like all good Englishmen, the try to share what little there is - they both die. I'm worried that were are at that stage at the moment. > >And as for that wondeful line - contribute to exisiting SAM >magazines...well for starters SAM World is proposed to be paper based >( I think ) thus ruling out any kind of inroads into Fred and SamSupp >territory. Nothing will affect FORMAT because the people who buy that >buy it to get all the latest SAM news from "West Coast Computers" >(ha!) etc. Based on an Idea caters for things completely different to >the stuff that SAM World proposes. BOAI is reather specialist, I admit I did not understand the first issue myself. What Gavin would never say is just what he considered to be so different that it needed a new mag. > >And as for samsboss saying that Gavin is on an ego trip...I think >that's a little harsh. Mmmm, maybe I was a little harsh, but after several emails that I thought clearly pointed out the problems ahead, and that clearly asked him to support the existing mags, I just found that I was talking to a brick wall. Now I don't think Gavin is thick. So why can't he see the danger? I just assumed (possible I was wrong) that it was an ego trip. >Nobody can call themselves famous in the SAM >world - we're just a bunch of friends all on a similar level really. >Believe me, running SAM2Sam, which incidentally found its own market >place and did not affect anything that FRED or SAMSupp were doing at >the time, was no ego trip - it was built up out of a genuine desire >to provide information taht was not widely available to the SAM >world. And for two whole years it worked. > >So where has YOUR contribution to the SAM world been oh mysterious >one? Apart from a few biting comments on this list nobody knows what >you've done. Mazybe I'm wrong and maybe you have done a great deal to >support the SAM but if that is the case, I can't see how you can make >such negative comments towards someone else who wants to do much teh >same thing. I have done a few bits, although not so much since I started a new job last year. However, I will continue to try, in my own little way, to help SAM - even if it is only by spending money. > >Sorry for going on about this, but I found samsboss' letter quite >offensive the other day and I thought I'd just take a couple of >minutes out to support what I see as a worthwhile project. Ok, point noted. Now let me ask you a straight question Johnna, "What do you think would happen to SAM if say Fred or Format pulled out?" > >Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) >JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) >"Great King Rat died today." -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 18:40:58 1997 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:39:38 GMT Message-Id: <199702051839.SAA21630@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem.t From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 620 Lines: 28 On Feb 05, 1997 15:11:56, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: >At 14:01 05/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >>Status: RO >> >> >>> unfilled niche. This is why BOAI has been pretty successful, if plagued >>> with a few problems. Issue 3's out very soon btw, and then we're going to >> >>Good, good :) How soon is "very soon"? Should it be sent to university or >>direct to home, is what I'm wondering... > >It'll be at the printers within the next fortnight, or my name's Susan. Hello Susan, nice to meet you. :) (Sorry, just could not resist) [cut] >Simon > -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 19:25:14 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:29:54 GMT Subject: Re: A Future "Problem" Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <18C030706BD@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4767 Lines: 95 *sigh* I'm getting sick of this argument Samsboss. You've made your points and I've listened and replied. But I'm not going to sit back and let you put down my efforts (and those who have kindly offered to write for the magazine)...so here goes again. > >When the SAM was first released, millions of magazine came out for it > >all promising something different and really, only a handful > >survived. The others died off, or the authors moved on to new > >pastures or something. My point is this, the SAM was a stable factor > >throughout this period - it kept going whilst all these magazines > >fell apart. If there is no market for SAM World then it will flop - > >basic Economics really isn't it? > > The problem is that the market is a lot smaller now. Take two people and > put them in a room, give only just enough food for one to just about > survive. If, like all good Englishmen, the try to share what little there > is - they both die. > I'm worried that were are at that stage at the moment. I don't think that is a realistic comparison. There is no reason why any magazine should die, but *if* (and its a very unlikely if) any magazine should die, it will be the lesser one won't it? We would be left with the same amount of magazines, only of a slightly better overall quality. If, however, Sam World is the lesser, it will die - I will be disappointed, but I will have tried and done my best and that's all I can do. > >And as for samsboss saying that Gavin is on an ego trip...I think > >that's a little harsh. > > Mmmm, maybe I was a little harsh, but after several emails that I thought > clearly pointed out the problems ahead, and that clearly asked him to > support the existing mags, I just found that I was talking to a brick wall. I replied to your points several times, and you just couldn't see my side of the argument. Now you can't seem to see the points of a growing number of people on this list... > Now I don't think Gavin is thick. So why can't he see the danger? I just > assumed (possible I was wrong) that it was an ego trip. Again, I assure you this is no ego trip and I am trying to do something to promote the Sam - is that so bad? > >Nobody can call themselves famous in the SAM > >world - we're just a bunch of friends all on a similar level really. > >Believe me, running SAM2Sam, which incidentally found its own market > >place and did not affect anything that FRED or SAMSupp were doing at > >the time, was no ego trip - it was built up out of a genuine desire > >to provide information taht was not widely available to the SAM > >world. And for two whole years it worked. And I enjoyed it. And Fred, Sam Supplement at the same time by the way. > I have done a few bits, although not so much since I started a new job last > year. However, I will continue to try, in my own little way, to help SAM - > even if it is only by spending money. Well maybe you won't mind spending 50p or a quid every other month for Sam World? *grins* > >Sorry for going on about this, but I found samsboss' letter quite > >offensive the other day and I thought I'd just take a couple of > >minutes out to support what I see as a worthwhile project. > > Ok, point noted. Now let me ask you a straight question Johnna, "What do > you think would happen to SAM if say Fred or Format pulled out?" Please listen to what people are trying to tell you. Sam World is a paper magazine and therefore will *not* be competing with Fred - it will of course be supporting Fred! As for Format, I am a regular reader of it - haven't missed an issue for the last 3 or more years. Every issue there's always at least one feature that interests me. Again, Sam World will (if Bob will let me - and I have offered to build a web site for Format Publications and WCC last December, to which he said he would contact me soon...Bob??) support Format in any way it can. It will not be competing with it. Samsboss, I hope you will reconsider and stop being so negative - at the very least until you see the mag! I'll leave you with one more thought (and I have made this point before to you in private mails Samsboss...) If you heard that someone was going to bring out a piece of software, would you start insulting him in public, attempting to put people off the idea, trying to make the point that there is already enough software out there? As far as I'm concerned, the more stuff that comes with the name "Sam" on it, can only be good for it. I'm asking you again Samsboss, to stop this argument now. You have made your points, I've replied to them, please don't bother repeating yourself. If you really must, go back to insulting me in private again. Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 19:54:25 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:54:05 GMT+0 Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1770 Lines: 38 > Ok, point noted. Now let me ask you a straight question Johnna, "What do > you think would happen to SAM if say Fred or Format pulled out?" > Accepted - if either company pulled their support for SAM we would flounder, but if things really are as bad as you hinted (regarding Fred's caretaker, and FormatPC being setup to subsidise the 8Bit version) then we will need people supporting the SAM in other ways in case one of the big two do go west. It would be silly to put ALL our eggs into two baskets and then see one of them do a runner. Fair enough, Bob has displayed his support for the SAM ideal by proposing to support the SAMSon (although the longer we leave production of this model, the less interested SAM users we will have to sell it to) but it does not mean we shouldn't have other smaller set-ups supporting the SAM in other ways. It's my personal belief that if SAM World is priced cheaply enough, covers a fair range of material and is fairly consistent then it should work. I have said to Gavin that if he wants me to write for it I will, but that does not mean that I will stop writing stuff for Fred. When SAM2Sam was my own concern I put all my efforts into making it work, but since we passed it on I've continued to support Fred with all the stuff I write for the SAM. Your point is valid, samsboss, but I can't see how a small production like SAM World will drastically upset the balance of the SAM World. My Fred sub has just run out, but I will be renewing it - and if SAM World is released then I'll probably take a few issues of that ASWELL, but never instead of. > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 20:14:48 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:20:14 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <18CD97570A0@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 571 Lines: 14 > It's my personal belief that if SAM World is priced cheaply enough, Will be in the 50p to 1 quid range > Your point is valid, samsboss, but I can't see how a small production > like SAM World will drastically upset the balance of the SAM World. > My Fred sub has just run out, but I will be renewing it - and if SAM > World is released then I'll probably take a few issues of that > ASWELL, but never instead of. > Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) I wouldn't want it any other way! I'm only asking people to reserve judgement till they see the mag. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 22:04:33 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:09:42 GMT Subject: Re: Please Help me with my Homework ;) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <18EAC763451@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2608 Lines: 76 Hi Tim, hope this helps... > Please Rate on a scale of 0 to 9 (where 0 is crap, and 9 is orgasmic ;) > the following: > > The Sam Coupe as a machine for games : 7 > " a machine for programming/development : 8 > " a machine for utilities/business : 6 > " overall : 7 > > The average quality of games you've played : 6 > " programming/development tools used : 5 > " utils/business used : 8 > Sam Software overall :7 > Urm, okay, some comparision type questions, on a scale of 1-9, taking 5 > to be the rating of the given machine... I think, I've understood this bit... > > vs Speccy 128 SNES P100 PC Atari ST > Sound? 8 2 1 5 > Graphics? 9 3 2 4 > Speed? 7 2 2 4 > > ==== > > (I now try to think up other possible questions..) > > How many hours a week do you normally spend on your sam? 16 (oh dear...) > > Do you mainly use your sam for (pick 1): (All pretty much equally to be honest but I'll say games if I have to pick just one...) Games Yep > Programming-Development > Utilities-Business > > > ==== > > A few "grouping questions", pretty please with sugar answer these... > > Are you: Male Yep Female (is there anyone female on this list? (Just one as far as I know so that might just make your results a little lop sided :( ) > > Age: <16 16-20 (Yep - 20) 21-25 26-30 30-50 50+ > (okay, fairly tight grouping near the front I know, but I'd claim that > the bulk of users on this list are going to be students or recent graduates) > > What county do you live in? > Antrim Just while I'm writing, I thought I might mention Sam World to you. You may have read Samsboss's comments about this, but I assure you that anything he has said has been unfair and untrue (and actually quite hurtful!) I promise you that I only have Sam's best interests at heart and will do everything to support it and its companies. I'm only hoping this argument on the list, doesn't get any worse...I'm trying to hold back from replying to each of his mails, but I can't just sit back and let him slag off something that I (and a few others of course) are putting a lot of work into. By the way, I don't suppose you have any free time on your hands? *grins* Any chance of a feature or a column? I have a little list waiting if you are interested. :) Anyway, hope the assignment goes well, and maybe speak to you on Mono sometime (I'm Sparkyy). Cheers, Gavin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Wed Feb 5 22:07:50 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:11:55 GMT Subject: Re: Please Help me with my Homework ;) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <18EB66A43CE@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 150 Lines: 7 Erm. Woops *grins* Erm. Never mind eh? That was meant for Tim directly, sorry! Just realised it went to the list hehehe :) Erm, hi Samsboss! *grins* From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Feb 6 13:13:00 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:15:42 +0000 Subject: Tim's thingie Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <1805D5434EB@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1607 Lines: 56 Please Rate on a scale of 0 to 9 (where 0 is crap, and 9 is orgasmic ;) the following: The Sam Coupe as a machine for games : 5 " a machine for programming/development : 6 " a machine for utilities/business : 4 " overall : 5 The average quality of games you've played : 6 " programming/development tools used : 4 " utils/business used : 4 Sam Software overall : 4 (by prog/develop I mean things like masterbasic, scads, c, comet) (by utils/busine I mean things like SC_Word, campion, sam paint) (the first set what you think of sams capabilities) (the second set are what you think of what has been done) ==== Urm, okay, some comparision type questions, on a scale of 1-9, taking 5 to be the rating of the given machine... vs Speccy 128 SNES P100 PC Atari ST Sound? 7 unh.. 7? 4 6 Graphics? 8 4 2 4 Speed? 6 4 2 4 ==== How many hours a week do you normally spend on your sam? 0 (since I moved to uni and left it at home!) Do you mainly use your sam for (pick 1): Games Programming-Development <<<< yup Utilities-Business ==== A few "grouping questions", pretty please with sugar answer these... Are you: **Male** Age: 16-20 What county do you live in? Scotland. ta --- dave --- If you can read this message your browser does not support frames, video, sound, mime, color, text or any of that irratating acidic jelly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Feb 6 20:32:33 1997 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:30:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: A few things... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1691 Lines: 42 It's been a while since I've written anyhting for this list. I've been too busy with worrying about my exams results that are supposed to be arriving soon. But here goes:- Gavin's SAM-World ================= I can't see what's wrong with him publishing one. If it dies, it dies. But at least he's tried. Something that can't be said about most of the rest of us. I'm sure there are some people on this list who don't subscribe to any magazine. SRAM, Z380 and MAOS =================== It would be nice to have the SRAM and z380 on one board. Cheaper to purchase aswell. Those people on the list who are campaining to leave ROMS and things out of the memory allocation table: What about future memory mapped EPROMS tat may appear smack dead bang in the middle (people like me and maybe a few others are like that) of the memory map? And the whether the allocation table should have program identification tags or what: I think that it should say whether the block of memory is allocated or not. Let the program worry about whether the memory is his or not. It won't care about the others. My SAM projects =============== Going rather slowly at the moment. :( No time.. :( Boo hoo... Not only that, my SAM-->TV arieal lead connector is playing up so I gotta fix that somehow... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Thu Feb 6 20:46:42 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:43:37 GMT+0 Subject: Re: A few things... Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 499 Lines: 16 > My SAM projects > =============== > Going rather slowly at the moment. :( No time.. :( Boo hoo... > > Not only that, my SAM-->TV arieal lead connector is playing up so I > gotta fix that somehow... Think it's just a bog standard one - open up you PSU and replace it with one from Maplins... > > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | Johnna Pig Teare (j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 12:25:47 1997 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:14:37 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702071214.AA25018@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: bus-words X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 319 Lines: 7 Just thought I should mention something I saw in the latest Byte. A Californian company, AIC, has launched what they call KNS (Keyboard Network Station), and they claim it's "the world's first TRUE keyboard computer". WE all know this is a load of hot air! Unfortunately, there is no e-mail address in the ad. -Frode From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 13:06:28 1997 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:00:25 GMT Message-Id: <199702071300.NAA17826@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A few things... From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: SAM users list X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 624 Lines: 20 On Feb 06, 1997 20:30:26, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >It's been a while since I've written anyhting for this list. I've been too >busy with worrying about my exams results that are supposed to be >arriving soon. But here goes:- > >Gavin's SAM-World >================= >I can't see what's wrong with him publishing one. If it dies, it dies. >But at least he's tried. Something that can't be said about most of the >rest of us. I'm sure there are some people on this list who don't >subscribe to any magazine. But what if it kills the SAM as well? >{snippy} Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 13:06:29 1997 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:58:51 GMT Message-Id: <199702071258.MAA17786@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 232 Lines: 7 I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least of all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred in particular). It is a question that need a clear answer. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 13:20:15 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis set sender to Relaxed using -f To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A few things... References: <199702071300.NAA17826@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware From: unknown Date: 07 Feb 1997 13:18:29 +0000 In-Reply-To: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com's message of Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:00:25 GMT Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1420 Lines: 35 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) writes: > > On Feb 06, 1997 20:30:26, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: > >>It's been a while since I've written anyhting for this list. I've been too >>busy with worrying about my exams results that are supposed to be >>arriving soon. But here goes:- >> >>Gavin's SAM-World >>================= >>I can't see what's wrong with him publishing one. If it dies, it dies. >>But at least he's tried. Something that can't be said about most of the >>rest of us. I'm sure there are some people on this list who don't >>subscribe to any magazine. > > But what if it kills the SAM as well? > This is getting to be a really silly argument samsboss, and it's also beginning to look rather like a bitchy personal attempt to get at Gavin (Quite why I don't know, maybe if we knew who you were we'd be able to guess but I won't start that again ...). I don't see, and from recent posting by a variety of people, no-one else can see how the launch of a new magazine could possibly have any detrimental affect on the SAM community. The only bad thing that could happen is that Gavin could waste his money/and or time. The potential benefits though are huge, so accept that your opinion on this is in the minority and give it a bloody rest ... Lee. X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 13:24:59 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis set sender to Relaxed using -f To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. References: <199702071258.MAA17786@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware From: unknown Date: 07 Feb 1997 13:22:27 +0000 In-Reply-To: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com's message of Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:58:51 GMT Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1116 Lines: 29 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) writes: > > I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least of > all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred in > particular). Who said we/he doesn't support the existing mags? All Gavin is trying to do is produce a mag that covers something new, and something that isn't covered by the others. This is not a YS/SU/Crash type thing where all three we're covering the same stuff and died because there wasn't a big enough readership to keep three similar mags alive, this is a case of lots of mags all for different areas and there is no reason why people won't support more than one > > It is a question that need a clear answer. > Says who. I don't recall anyone saying they didn't support Fred/Format (Quote to disprove me if you will ...), and if people don't then it's probably because the mags don't cater for what they want, and maybe Gavin's will, I honestly can't see it killing the SAM ... Lee. X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 13:59:14 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <25971.199702071357@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:56:42 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702071258.MAA17786@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 7, 97 12:58:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 333 Lines: 8 > > I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least of > all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred in > particular). Er - excuse me. Who said I don't support Fred and Format? I've had a sub with fred since issue 28, and format since volume 5... Kindly stop jumping to conclusions. From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 15:06:19 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <4612.199702071503@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A few things... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:03:22 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702071300.NAA17826@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 7, 97 01:00:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 555 Lines: 13 > >I can't see what's wrong with him publishing one. If it dies, it dies. > >But at least he's tried. Something that can't be said about most of the > But what if it kills the SAM as well? Very unlikely, and apart from that, what if Colin MacD or similar had thought that before publishing their first? Apart from all that, if you're going to get on your soapbox, I'd appreciate knowing who you are - I don't tend to take that much notice of anonymous people, especially when I don't know whether they have a clue what they're talking about. Paul From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 16:44:56 1997 Message-Id: <199702071638.RAA09850@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: bus-words Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:37:52 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 736 Lines: 20 > Van: Frode Tenneboe > Aan: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Onderwerp: bus-words > Datum: Friday, February 07, 1997 1:14 > > Just thought I should mention something I saw in the latest Byte. > A Californian company, AIC, has launched what they call KNS > (Keyboard Network Station), and they claim it's "the world's first > TRUE keyboard computer". WE all know this is a load of hot air! > Unfortunately, there is no e-mail address in the ad. > > -Frode **Grin** Those Americans have to be first at everything, don't they. Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] [http://www.caiw.nl/~rjvveeke/hentai2.htm] Hentai Oranda -- We have been brought here by desire -- Pinhead in Hellbound (hellraiser II) From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 20:22:25 1997 From: Stacey Witney To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-11.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:33:38 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <855344176.1026182.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 743 Lines: 25 Hmmm, Samsboss, That's a good one. Following your argument through, the SAM is **already** dead because no one supports the current mags. Therefore a third magazine that no one supports is not going to make any difference what-so-ever. This whole thread is getting a bit tedious now..... -Stacey ---------- > From: Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Subject: Re: A Future Problem. > Date: 07 February 1997 12:58 pm > > I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least of > all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred in > particular). > > It is a question that need a clear answer. > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 20:22:25 1997 From: Stacey Witney To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-11.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: A few things... Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:35:59 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <855344177.1026188.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 965 Lines: 29 ---------- > From: unknown > To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Subject: Re: A few things... > Date: 07 February 1997 1:18 pm > > This is getting to be a really silly argument samsboss, and it's also > beginning to look rather like a bitchy personal attempt to get at > Gavin (Quite why I don't know, maybe if we knew who you were we'd be > able to guess but I won't start that again ...). > > I don't see, and from recent posting by a variety of people, no-one > else can see how the launch of a new magazine could possibly have any > detrimental affect on the SAM community. The only bad thing that could > happen is that Gavin could waste his money/and or time. The potential > benefits though are huge, so accept that your opinion on this is in > the minority and give it a bloody rest ... > > Lee. > > X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? > Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. Here, here! -Stacey From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 21:34:07 1997 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:09:54 GMT Message-Id: <199702072109.VAA06083@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 678 Lines: 20 On Feb 07, 1997 13:56:42, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >> >> I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least of >> all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred in >> particular). > >Er - excuse me. Who said I don't support Fred and Format? I've had a sub with >fred since issue 28, and format since volume 5... Kindly stop jumping to >conclusions. -- ''You'' did not mean anyone in particular, I was talking to the reader. And what I was really getting at is that is someone can write articles for Gavin then why are they not already doing so for the existing mags? Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 7 21:34:09 1997 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:07:26 GMT Message-Id: <199702072107.VAA05995@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1608 Lines: 45 On Feb 07, 1997 13:22:27, 'unknown ' wrote: >samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) writes: > >> >> I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least of >> all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred in >> particular). > >Who said we/he doesn't support the existing mags? All Gavin is trying >to do is produce a mag that covers something new, and something that >isn't covered by the others. But what? That is what he has never been able to answer. >This is not a YS/SU/Crash type thing >where all three we're covering the same stuff and died because there >wasn't a big enough readership to keep three similar mags alive, this >is a case of lots of mags all for different areas and there is no >reason why people won't support more than one > >> >> It is a question that need a clear answer. >> > >Says who. I don't recall anyone saying they didn't support Fred/Format >(Quote to disprove me if you will ...), and if people don't then it's >probably because the mags don't cater for what they want, and maybe >Gavin's will, I honestly can't see it killing the SAM ... But what do people want that is not provided by the current mags? Will somebody please come up with an answer - its doing my head in trying to think of somehting that falls outside the reach of Fred, Sam Sup or Format. What is there? I can't think of anything. > > >Lee. > >X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? >Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 8 14:34:15 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:29:18 GMT+0 Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 542 Lines: 16 > > ''You'' did not mean anyone in particular, I was talking to the reader. And > what I was really getting at is that is someone can write articles for > Gavin then why are they not already doing so for the existing mags? I intend to write for Gavins mag - and if you look at the last six or so issues of FRED then you'll see that I've had something on nearly every one of them. > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 8 17:31:54 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 17:31:35 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1D20BA81779@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 432 Lines: 8 > I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least of > all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred in > particular). I subscribe to Fred and Format (have done for years). If you are referring to writing things for magazines, then if you put half as much effort into that as you do rubbishing other people's efforts, then you could single handedly write the above magazines... From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 8 23:36:08 1997 Message-Id: <199702082137.VAA16129@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: A few things... Date: 08 Feb 1997 16:43:56 Organization: Heart of Lothian References: <199702071300.NAA17826@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 994 Lines: 13 In a message of 07 Feb 97 Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no: Hi Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com, >> rest of us. I'm sure there are some people on this list who don't >> subscribe to any magazine. Sup> Sup> But what if it kills the SAM as well? Erm.. are you for real? Why don't you just let it drop. There's no chance in anything like a magazine (which only sets out to support SAM) doing any harm at all. What SAM needs is more communication between the users, not less. Lot's of the old mags came and went. If any of the old established ones disappear, then so what. Maybe some of the users who dropped their support for the older mags - because they got tired of the same old same, might welcome a new mag - a refreshing change from the stale old has-been ones. There interest might be renewed enough for them to want to use their SAMs again. Good luck to Gavin. If he wants to put his own time into the project, he should only be encouraged. TTFN Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 8 23:36:08 1997 Message-Id: <199702082137.VAA16142@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: A Future Problem. Date: 08 Feb 1997 16:46:38 Organization: Heart of Lothian References: <199702071258.MAA17786@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 487 Lines: 12 In a message of 07 Feb 97 Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no: Hi Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com, Sup> I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least Sup> of all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred Sup> in particular). Probably because it isn't compulsory. People might have had enough and fancy a change. Why did all the other magazines die anyway - was it because the duopoly squeeezed them out? Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 8 23:36:20 1997 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 22:38:54 GMT Message-Id: <199702082238.WAA17871@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1110 Lines: 28 On Feb 08, 1997 17:31:35, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >> I still have one big question that nobody seems able to answer, least of >> all Gavin. Why do you not support the existing mags (Format and Fred in >> particular). > >I subscribe to Fred and Format (have done for years). If you are >referring to writing things for magazines, then if you put half as >much effort into that as you do rubbishing other people's efforts, >then you could single handedly write the above magazines... Oh for christ sake! I am not, nor have I ever, tried to rubbish your efforts or those of others. All I have tried to do is get it into your head that YOU, Gavin Smith, are about to do something that is just plain STUPID. Will you please, for the sake of others, and above all for the sake of Sam, climb down of you high horse and see the reality of the world. There is no room for a new mag, if it goes on at this rate there will be as many mags as there are Sam owners. Grow up, stop thinking about yourself and think about others for a change. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 01:35:33 1997 From: Stacey Witney To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at relay-11.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 00:03:58 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <855446663.1010484.0@huggable.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 44 Lines: 3 Lets kill this petty thread now!!! -Stacey From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 11:32:33 1997 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:30:09 GMT Message-Id: <199702091130.LAA01092@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 479 Lines: 17 On Feb 09, 1997 00:03:58, 'Stacey Witney ' wrote: >Lets kill this petty thread now!!! > >-Stacey No, lets kill the stupid idea of a new magazine and get back to work trying to make Sam more sucessful, if anyone on this believes for one moment that a new mag is going to do anything to advance the Sam cause then you must come from a different world. WE MUST, TOGETHER, BUT A STOP TO THIS MAD IDEA - NOW. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 12:13:18 1997 Message-Id: <199702091213.MAA15633@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: A Future Problem. Date: 09 Feb 1997 12:08:48 Organization: Heart of Lothian References: <199702091130.LAA01092@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 218 Lines: 11 In a message of 09 Feb 97 Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no: Hi Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com, Sup> WE MUST, TOGETHER, BUT A STOP TO THIS MAD IDEA - NOW. Oh you crazy person. :) Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 12:13:18 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: sskardon@argonet.co.uk (Stewart Skardon) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 97 12:10:57 X-Mailer: VTi Internet Email reader 1.09 : aa Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1489 Lines: 43 On Sun 9 Feb 97 (11:30:09), samsboss@uk.pipeline.com, samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: >On Feb 09, 1997 00:03:58, 'Stacey Witney >' wrote: > > >>Lets kill this petty thread now!!! >> >>-Stacey > >No, lets kill the stupid idea of a new magazine and get back to work >trying to make Sam more sucessful, if anyone on this believes for one >moment that a new mag is going to do anything to advance the Sam cause >then you must come from a different world. > >WE MUST, TOGETHER, BUT A STOP TO THIS MAD IDEA - NOW. s@ I think that you should get off of your high horse, and stop trying to get a power kick out of using an Email address that you seem to think gives you some kind of authority on this list. A new magazine is not a stupid idea. It is giving people more information about the SAM, and gives SAM companies an extra line of communication between themselves and their customers. More customers knowing about the new SAM releases means more sales. Look at FRED. They did a mail shot to past subscribers who had given up on the SAM letting them know what had happened, and over a hundred came back to SAM. Besides which, the current SAM magazine scene is rather a monopoly at the moment, don't you think? There. I've said my bit. -- _ (_`tewart sskardon@argonet.co.uk ,_) kardon Crashed WWW Site http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/cind.html Stewart Skardon online http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 12:20:46 1997 Message-Id: <199702091215.NAA18552@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Cc: sam-users Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:15:38 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 961 Lines: 25 > Van: Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > No, lets kill the stupid idea of a new magazine and get back to work trying > to make Sam more sucessful, if anyone on this believes for one moment that > a new mag is going to do anything to advance the Sam cause then you must > come from a different world. > > WE MUST, TOGETHER, BUT A STOP TO THIS MAD IDEA - NOW. > -- I have seen this for a while now. And I think that a new mag won't help the Sam forward, but if Gavin is planning to put time and effort into a new magazine, so be it. It is his time and money wich is involved here. And as long he uses original articles and material ect. I don't have a problem with a new magazine. For the moment I am giving Gavin the benefit of the doubt. Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] [http://www.caiw.nl/~rjvveeke/hentai2.htm] Hentai Oranda -- We have been brought here by desire -- Pinhead in Hellbound (hellraiser II) From imc Sun Feb 9 13:10:27 1997 Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:10:27 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702082238.WAA17871@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 8, 97 10:38:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 404 Lines: 11 On Sat, 8 Feb 1997 22:38:54 GMT, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com said: > I am not, nor have I ever, tried to rubbish your > efforts or those of others. > All I have tried to do is get it into your head that YOU, Gavin Smith, are > about to do something that is just plain STUPID. Um, are you the only person who doesn't see something odd with putting these two sentences together? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 13:13:50 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:07:41 GMT+0 Subject: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <109AC812A43@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 865 Lines: 23 > Oh for christ sake! I am not, nor have I ever, tried to rubbish your > efforts or those of others. > > All I have tried to do is get it into your head that YOU, Gavin Smith, are > about to do something that is just plain STUPID. > At the risk of inflating samsboss' ego a little more, and most definetly not wanting to repopen the 'Who is Samsboss' debate, I ask that if there is anybody who knows its identity, please mail the list and let us all know. This continual assault on one SAM owners desire to publish a magazine is childish. It strikes me as a very stupid thing to fight your corner when the rest of the SAM world (or certainly the majority on this list) are obviously against you. > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From imc Sun Feb 9 14:33:06 1997 Subject: Re: A blasphemous request for help ... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:33:06 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702040024.AAA14619@hermes.clara.net> from "David Ledbury" at Feb 4, 97 00:20:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 201 Lines: 7 On Tue, 4 Feb 97 00:20:39 GMT, David Ledbury said: > I am also after a web page designing utility which will run happily under Windoze > 3.1, on a 486. I believe there's one called EDLIN... :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 15:27:04 1997 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:19:26 -0500 (EST) From: Gouranga@aol.com Message-ID: <970209101925_1677787968@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2276 Lines: 41 > Why did all the other magazines die anyway - was it because the > duopoly squeeezed them out? Oooh, controversial stuff Dave! I can understand why for the last five/six years everyone's been wittering on about FRED and Formats duopoly, and while I am (kind of!) a businessman and sometimes in my aim to make enough money to pay the rent, I'm indirectly taking money from another *company*, I don't think anyone could realistically argue that I've put anyone out of business that was doing anything that the other companies didn't already do better. I know everyone's going to think "Exodus", but remember there are two sides to every story. I made a decision after about the first year of FRED not to push my personal grievances in the magazine. I don't think there's been a company exist on the SAM without getting a major push through FRED if it's been requested - in fact, aside from the standard Format advert, you could almost name any single SAM magazine and I could guarantee it's had more coverage in FRED than Format has! I do remember in early FRED days, although perhaps I was too immature, being annoyed at a couple of magazines because I gave them a lot of coverage and support in FRED and then they refused to cover FRED and even took a stance against FRED. I don't much care whether they were right in doing so, but how many of those magazines have bothered to survive until today? In case anyone's got this far down without falling asleep, the very best of luck to Gavin with his new mag. To be perfectly honest, I can't see there being a market for SAM World, regardless of who it's aimed at, but here's hoping I get proved wrong. But obviously, if you do compete for marketplace with the existing mags, you must realise that they're not going to gently take to the sidelines without putting up a fight! And yes, Gavin, you can expect coverage in FRED if you want - just send the info up.... As to the caretaker position, there are a ridiculous number of factors that this has arisen from - the main ones being those I've already explained here and in the newsletter. But yes, one of the minor reasons is to do with the gradually shrinking marketplace. Wow - that's two things in the same year, that's more than I write for FRED! ;) Colin Macdonald From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 15:27:21 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <26845.199702091524@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:24:31 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702072107.VAA05995@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 7, 97 09:07:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 562 Lines: 15 > >to do is produce a mag that covers something new, and something that > >isn't covered by the others. > But what? That is what he has never been able to answer. You're also forgetting that he doesn't /have/ to justify himself to you anyway. It could be he just doesn't want to tell you. And you still haven't said what /you/ personally have done for the Sam scene. I would be willing to be that it's somewhat less than Gavin... > But what do people want that is not provided by the current mags? Will A change, maybe? Just something /different/. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 15:29:00 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <27021.199702091526@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:26:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702072109.VAA06083@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 7, 97 09:09:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 474 Lines: 13 > ''You'' did not mean anyone in particular, I was talking to the reader. And Same thing. I was the reader, and you were saying that I didn't support Fred and Format. You know, if I was of a like mind, I might get suspicious that you're part of one of those magazines... > what I was really getting at is that is someone can write articles for > Gavin then why are they not already doing so for the existing mags? So why not just say that, instead of using "support"? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 15:29:00 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <27056.199702091527@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A few things... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:27:57 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702082137.VAA16129@mail.enterprise.net> from "Dave Whitmore" at Feb 8, 97 04:43:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 176 Lines: 5 I couldn't quote Dave's message (because you didn't use CR/LF pairs...), but I agree with most of the things you said. Although I'm not sure the magazines are "stale"... Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 15:29:33 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:34:47 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1E8194F4023@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 419 Lines: 9 > I have seen this for a while now. And I think that a new mag won't help the > Sam forward, but if Gavin is planning to put time and effort into a new > magazine, so be it. It is his time and money wich is involved here. And as > long he uses original articles and material ect. I don't have a problem > with a new magazine. > > For the moment I am giving Gavin the benefit of the doubt. That's all I'm asking for. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 15:37:10 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <27369.199702091532@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:32:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702082238.WAA17871@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 8, 97 10:38:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1473 Lines: 34 I know this isn't polite, but I'm afraid you've just been getting on my nerves over this. > Oh for christ sake! I am not, nor have I ever, tried to rubbish your > efforts or those of others. What do you think you've been /doing/, you idiot? I mean, read the rest of /this/ mesage for an example! You effectively say that Gavin's stupid, that he's selfish, and (reading from the others) that he should support Fred and Format instead of trying to get off his ass (which is more than you've ever done, by the sound of it) and /do/ something! > All I have tried to do is get it into your head that YOU, Gavin Smith, are > about to do something that is just plain STUPID. No, /you/ think it's stupid. The rest of us think it's a great idea. Why don't you just SHUT UP, before I simply killfile you, because you're /really/ becoming irritating. > Will you please, for the sake of others, and above all for the sake of Sam, > climb down of you high horse and see the reality of the world. There is no Off his high horse!!! Gavin's not the one who apparently knows more than the rest of us, saying that if /one/ more mag comes along the sam will die! Where do you get your information from, then? Why don't /you/ get off /your horse and accept that maybe /you're/ wrong? > Grow up, stop thinking about yourself and think about others for a change. Sentiments which could apply equally well to you. Just read your messages on this thread and think about it, neh? Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 15:37:10 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <27411.199702091533@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:33:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702091130.LAA01092@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 9, 97 11:30:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 653 Lines: 16 > a new mag is going to do anything to advance the Sam cause then you must > come from a different world. If anyone seriously believes that the SamSON is going to be vastly succesfull then I'm afraid you must be from a different reality. Don't get me wrong - I think it's a good idea, and something for all the diverse people we have here to do something. But wake up and smell the coffee - the days of small computers breaking into the market are over. Everything is dominated by PCs, and (to a much smaller extent) Amigas, Macs etc. > WE MUST, TOGETHER, BUT A STOP TO THIS MAD IDEA - NOW. Give it a rest, will you? You're getting tedious. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 16:00:07 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:53:37 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1E869CD497C@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 935 Lines: 18 > In case anyone's got this far down without falling asleep, the very best of > luck to Gavin with his new mag. To be perfectly honest, I can't see there > being a market for SAM World, regardless of who it's aimed at, but here's > hoping I get proved wrong. But obviously, if you do compete for marketplace > with the existing mags, you must realise that they're not going to gently > take to the sidelines without putting up a fight! And yes, Gavin, you can > expect coverage in FRED if you want - just send the info up.... > Colin Macdonald Cheers for the support Colin - I'll be finalising details in the next few weeks, and will send the info to you. I can promise you, that Sam World will be doing everything to support Fred and Fred Publishing (one of the most important Sam companies) and that we will not be competing with it - our intention is to work alongside it (and the other disk mags and paper mags). Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 16:10:04 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:13:28 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1E8BECF30AF@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1003 Lines: 18 "Samsboss", again I am asking you to end this thread. You have made your "points" time and time again and I (and others) have answered them. There is nothing more to say on the subject and continually calling me stupid, really won't help. Look, if the majority on this list were against Sam World being published, I would think again and probably give up the idea. However, I think I'm right in saying that you are the *only* person who doesn't think its a good idea (or at least not a bad idea). You have insulted me in almost every mail you have sent to the mailing list (and directly to me) on this subject - when you are calling me stupid, might I remind you that are also insulting the people who have kindly offered to write for the mag or who have supported it. At least wait until you see the magazine, before passing judgment on it. You are not "Sam's Boss". You are not my boss, nor the boss of anyone on this list. Please end this thread *now*. Gavin Smith (*sighing deeply*) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 16:45:08 1997 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:42:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Aside. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2077 Lines: 49 There I was last night, eating a very wonderful lasanga cooked for me and a few dinner guests by my charming lady friend, when the one guest opposite me imparted a wonderful little tail to me. "You not going to like this," he said, "I met someone who owns a Sam." "Ooooh," I say, "I wonder if I've heard of him." "He got it in a car boot sale," he says. "Lucky chap," I think. "Along with a spectrum. The Spectrum had died. It's processor had gone. So he opened the Sam. And he took the processor out." At this point I was finding it hard to listen to such an unlikely tale, but I held out to the end for the final unbelievable twist. "It was only a 16k spectrum...." Fact or fantasy? Truth or Urban Myth? I leave it to the reader to decide. .........................................................................@/ Sam World - sorry, but I may as well put my 2p's worth in. I buy Fred because it's a disk, and quite often has some useful software or a good game on it. I don't buy BOAI - although I haven't read it I suspect I'd find it too techincal for my tastes (though I may be wrong, one day I'll get around to buying one) I don't buy Format - I did for quite a while, but grew away from it and eventually had to choose between Fred and Format, and for me at least Fred won. I don't think Format is a bad mag, it's just not to my taste. However, I might consider buying Sam World, depending on it's style and content it may just fit into a niche that for me none of the others do. Is that such a bad thing? It's not taking my trade from anyone else. And even if gavin wrote for Format I doubt I'd begin buying it (no offense meant to bob) and a paper based format is entirely different from disk based, so I can't see it clashing with Fred. BTW, I don't actually own a horse, just incase ;) ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 17:20:40 1997 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:08:41 GMT Message-Id: <199702091708.RAA12597@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 748 Lines: 26 On Feb 09, 1997 15:26:38, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: > >> ''You'' did not mean anyone in particular, I was talking to the reader. And > >Same thing. I was the reader, and you were saying that I didn't support >Fred and Format. No it ain't, this is an open mailing list, or had you forgot that. > >You know, if I was of a like mind, I might get suspicious that you're part >of one of those magazines... > >> what I was really getting at is that is someone can write articles for >> Gavin then why are they not already doing so for the existing mags? > >So why not just say that, instead of using "support"? Oh for Christ sake, what planet you from? Support means both. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 17:20:40 1997 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:14:41 GMT Message-Id: <199702091714.RAA12850@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1997 Lines: 58 On Feb 09, 1997 15:32:02, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >I know this isn't polite, but I'm afraid you've just been getting on my >nerves over this. > >> Oh for christ sake! I am not, nor have I ever, tried to rubbish your >> efforts or those of others. > >What do you think you've been /doing/, you idiot? I mean, read the rest >of /this/ mesage for an example! You effectively say that Gavin's stupid, >that he's selfish, and (reading from the others) that he should support >Fred and Format instead of trying to get off his ass (which is more than >you've ever done, by the sound of it) and /do/ something! > >> All I have tried to do is get it into your head that YOU, Gavin Smith, are >> about to do something that is just plain STUPID. > >No, /you/ think it's stupid. The rest of us think it's a great idea. Why >don't you just SHUT UP, before I simply killfile you, because you're /really/ >becoming irritating. > >> Will you please, for the sake of others, and above all for the sake of Sam, >> climb down of you high horse and see the reality of the world. There is no > >Off his high horse!!! Gavin's not the one who apparently knows more than >the rest of us, saying that if /one/ more mag comes along the sam will die! >Where do you get your information from, then? Why don't /you/ get off /your >horse and accept that maybe /you're/ wrong? Ok, I'm wrong, I will now start looking for a new computer - because if everyone on this list is supporting Gavin then there will not be a SAM market worth talking about. I FOR ONE LOVE SAM. AND I WILL NOT SHUT UP WHEN I SEE SOMEONE ABOUT TO DO SOMETHING TO DESTROY IT. > > >> Grow up, stop thinking about yourself and think about others for a change. > >Sentiments which could apply equally well to you. Just read your messages >on this thread and think about it, neh? I'm not the one who is about to take a very selfish ego trip. > >Paul -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 17:38:58 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:41:44 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1EA3723608C@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 983 Lines: 24 > Ok, I'm wrong, I will now start looking for a new computer - because if > everyone on this list is supporting Gavin then there will not be a SAM > market worth talking about. You clearly know something that the rest of us don't. Just who the hell are you and why are you so sure that I'm suddenly going to kill off the SAM by releasing a bi-monthly 50p/1 quid magazine, that covers all SAM companies. You're being ridiculous! > I FOR ONE LOVE SAM. AND I WILL NOT SHUT UP WHEN I SEE SOMEONE ABOUT TO DO > SOMETHING TO DESTROY IT. I love SAM too, WHICH IS WHY I'M TRYING TO DO SOMETHING FOR IT. > I'm not the one who is about to take a very selfish ego trip. Why have you got it into your head that this is an ego trip?? Why do you seem to think the rest of the mailing list is wrong except you?? Who the hell are you and why do you continue to ignore this question?? There really is something more to this than meets the eye isn't there Samsboss...? Gavin Smith From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 19:28:03 1997 Message-Id: <199702091925.TAA23654@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: A Future Problem. Date: 09 Feb 1997 18:57:50 Organization: A tomb in Verona References: <970209101925_1677787968@emout03.mail.aol.com> X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4669 Lines: 99 In a message of 09 Feb 97 Gouranga@aol.com wrote to sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no: Hi Colin, Wahey! I said something to bring about your presence! :)) >> Why did all the other magazines die anyway - was it because the duopoly >> squeeezed them out? Gac> Oooh, controversial stuff Dave! Ooops. It wasn't a really passionate dig Colin, honest. You can usually tell when I'm being controversial, I swear a lot. :) Gac> I can understand why for the last five/six years everyone's been Gac> wittering on about FRED and Formats duopoly, and while I am (kind of!) It's been said, and I agree that the wittering /did/ seem justified to /some/ people at the time. Personally, I don't really care enough anymore. I've always admired Fred and Format, because IMOHO they are top class. I no longer subscribe to either because they do little for me. I've got other interests - and most SAM news appears here anyway. It was never a duopoly full stop, it just looked that way. There were always (still are) alternatives for those who want them. SAM supp, Blitz and SAM2SAM are current alternative choices. So the duopoly theory was never really true. I can testify that /you/ were very good to us when we ran the adventure club and you also stepped in to your Freditorial to personally plug my BBS. All the bickering about SAM suffering as a result of a new mag, which may or may not take off, is just so ridiculous. I mean if the SAM platform only exists to keep magazines in business, then there's something really wrong and sad about that. Gac> better. I know everyone's going to think "Exodus", but remember there I'd forgotten all about that. :) Gac> the standard Format advert, you could almost name any single SAM Gac> magazine and I could guarantee it's had more coverage in FRED than Gac> Format has! True Colin.. (calm down, calm down) :) Gac> even took a stance against FRED. I don't much care whether they were Gac> right in doing so, but how many of those magazines have bothered to Gac> survive until today? True. I remember that happening. Our mag was always on good terms with FRED. You've done very well lasting so long. Gac> In case anyone's got this far down without falling asleep, the very Gac> best of luck to Gavin with his new mag. To be perfectly honest, I can't Gac> see there being a market for SAM World, regardless of who it's aimed The problem is that there isn't much new for any SAM magazines to go on about. I suppose aspects of vapourware could be talked about, but that's been going on for years. There are bugger-all new games to review - okay there's the odd one or two - mostly ones which you've stuck your own neck out to finance. I wouldn't like to be out there trying to find stuff to put in a magazine; especially now that the world is full of console owners and second-hand Amiga cowboys - with all the WaReZ they want down at the local pirate club... Erm, sorry if I sound a bit depressing here, but that's how I see it. Gac> at, but here's hoping I get proved wrong. But obviously, if you do Gac> compete for marketplace with the existing mags, you must realise that Gac> they're not going to gently take to the sidelines without putting up a Gac> fight! And yes, Gavin, you can expect coverage in FRED if you want - Gac> just send the info up.... I doubt that Gavin's mag will affect any of the existing mags anyway. If readers drop out it'll probably be due to the decline in interest brought about by other factors - namely people moving on to machines with better specs - ones with proper comms/internet software, faster ones with lots of interesting magazines they can buy in WH Smiths. Mags with CD ROMs with hundreds of megs of stuff that they can spend hours checking out - even if it is a load of rubbish. CDR's have brought about copying the so-called uncopyable playstation games - I can see a huge increase in console sales looming. :) Gac> As to the caretaker position, there are a ridiculous number of factors Gac> that this has arisen from - the main ones being those I've already Gac> explained here and in the newsletter. But yes, one of the minor reasons Gac> is to do with the gradually shrinking marketplace. Yep. The shrinking marketplace. There's nowt much can be done about that, is there. What's your opinion about the SAMSON ideas Col? I was a bit excited when it was first brought up, but I can't see it taking off now. Who's gonna buy it? Will people really want to supercharge their SAMs to a lesser spec than an Amiga 1200? Gac> Wow - that's two things in the same year, that's more than I write for Gac> FRED! ;) Yeah, it's nice to see you again. :) Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 9 19:28:03 1997 Message-Id: <199702091925.TAA23686@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: A few things... Date: 09 Feb 1997 19:19:49 Organization: Capulet's orchard References: <27056.199702091527@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1102 Lines: 27 In a message of 09 Feb 97 Mr P R Walker wrote to sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no: Hi Mr Paul (Rupert?) Walker, MPR> I couldn't quote Dave's message (because you didn't use CR/LF MPR> pairs...), but I agree with most of the things you said. Although I'm MPR> not sure the magazines are "stale"... There are only a few people who seem to have this problem Paul. I use exactly the same editor I used on the BBS and you didn't say anything about it then. Maybe there's something you can toggle in your message program? I didn't mean completely stale. Just a bit same old same. I still occasionally read Fred and Format when I see Derek Morgan. I used to buy a lot of Amiga mags.. I don't anymore coz they're the same old same. I'm not really a magazine person anymore.. one of my main reasons for getting on the net was so I wouldn't have to buy mags for news. I'll tell you what would be nice - a html SAM mag.. but we don't need one - do we? And then there's always those boring SAM users who are too stubborn to move on, who don't have anything to read hypertext with... ;) Bye Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 05:44:19 1997 Message-ID: <32FEB53B.58F8@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:42:19 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sams users mail list Subject: A Future Problem. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4495 Lines: 83 Christ almighty ! I go off for a few weeks to get a new job started and when I get back I find hundreds of messages in the sam box. I feel I must say (I don't think *add* is the right word) something about the current flame war between samsboss and Gavin. My problem is that I have the advantage of knowing who samsboss is. This has been stated before and as I indicated at the time I have been requested not to reveal their identity so PLEASE don't ask me. After all you wouldn't like it if I broke a confidence of yours. I am also in the priviledged possition of being (or at least having been) informed of the internal workings of some of the other companies involved with the sam. (MGT, SAMCO, WCC, Format, FRED, Revelation, Betterbytes, B G Services) as well as my own involvement of running S D Software. All this makes any contribution I might make to the flames difficult as I have my own views. I can see both sides of the argument. I do not want to upset any of my friends. I do not want to break any confidences. Both sides of the argument have valid points, although I feel that the way some of them have been stated are better suited to an election slur campaign. As I see it samsboss is, quite rightly, afraid that any new magazine may cause a drop in the subscription the others (OK lets face it there is Format and the rest) For years, in fact ten years, Format has acted very much as the signpost for the rest of the sam world. (Sorry if my point of view is coloured by my personal friendship with Bob but I am trying not to let it). I know that Bob has been a very strong influence in the sam scene and that his strong personality has not only held sam together but has also alienated some people. (hell even I have fallen out with him at times and *he* *was* best man at my last wedding!) Sorry I have deviated. Now we see Format struggling to keep going. Hence Format PC. What I think samsboss is afraid of is that any competion may just be the final straw for Format. As far as I know Format is the only organisation involved with sam that makes a living out of the sam. All the others, SD included, have other sources of income to subsidise them. (OK Bob's wife goes out to work so that undoubtedly helps). Just imagine the sam universe without Format. I think it would be like a wheel without an axle, a car without an engine, a plane without a pilot (maybe I am overstating it, sorry). Now Gavin says he has something new and different to add. I don't know what it is. I will just have to wait for his mag to come out. As I am sure it will. Gavin has every right to do this. If sam world fails then we go back to the status quo. If it is a roaring success it could take over as the font of all sam knowledge. Only time will tell. Gavin must be aware by now that he will not get rich from sam. NOBODY has. In fact he must be sure that he is able to sink his own money into the project. Not just to start it up but to keep it going. (As Cookie wrote recently, 100 quid from one's own pocket does tend to smart a little, but it's all in a good cause). My own experience with SD is that over the past 8 years or so if I do not make a charge for my labour it would just about break even. If my labour had to be paid for then SD would have gone bust long ago. The same is true (AFAIK) for most of the other companies named above. I personally would be very upset if Format failed in the meantime. As then, should sam world fail, there will be very little left. Those of us on this mailing list should remember we are only a few dozen. The great majority of sam owners don't even know this place exists and couldn't get here if they did. I would like to know (purely for my own sake) why Gavin is not willing to combine his efforts with those of an existing mag, perhaps as a sub editor or in running a SIG (Special Interest Group). More importantly I would like to know why my friends and acquaintencies can't get on with each other. I am sure that if all the effort that has gone into this thread over that past weeks had been put into building a wall we would have a house by now. In the time I have spent doing this I could have made a significant dent in the article I am prepairing for Format PC. I have no doubt that what will happen, will happen. Whether for better or worse: we can only wait and see. Now can we all sit down, the boat is starting to take on water. Nev Young. Owner of S D Software and Managing Dirctor Comprehensive Data Systems Ltd. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:29:14 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:20:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@ibis.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: Few SAM subjects Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2252 Lines: 54 New Project =========== Has anyone on this list had any experience with connecting a PC analogue joystick to the SAM? I have an idea of using this as part of a project to build a controlling stick to use as a pitch wheel in the big MIDI keyboards (with the SAM processing the signals). It's part of my plan to make my SAM a Central MIDI Processing Unit. Projects Page ============= Everyone on here should know by now that I'm making my own Web page for the SAM. I'm thinking of having part of it dedicated to the SAM projects (hardware and software) both big and small. From the SAMSon (once I work out what's going on in it!)project down to someone writing there very first program in SAM BASIC. It would be nice to show the world what the SAM community is doing. So, if there are any projects that you feel should be included. Give me an email or something. :) Or if you want to talk about them, I'm known as Devlin on AbsoluteMUSH or DiscordiaMUSH. (when I'm on them during the day or Thursday night) SAM magazines and SAMs death ============================ I'm on Gavin's side for this. And since I don't buy any mag (go on, shoot me) I need to support at least one. I used to buy Format but the subscription ran out when I put my SAM in the attic and never bothered resubscribing. Samboss's argument of killing the SAM is plain ludicrus. The SAM is ALREADY DEAD (to the world). I told my mate about the SAM projects (Z380, graphics card, etc) and to put it bluntly, he burst out laughing saying you are all very sad and that the SAM will NEVER compete with the Amigas, never mind PCs. I want SAMSon to succede as much as most people on this list and prove the world wrong. And also, I think I've thought up a commercial name for the SAMson: SAM Phoenix. Let the SAM arise from its own ashes. (oops. Sorry for the length) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:29:14 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:24:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@ibis.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A few things... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 788 Lines: 18 On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > > Not only that, my SAM-->TV arieal lead connector is playing up so I > > gotta fix that somehow... > > Think it's just a bog standard one - open up you PSU and replace it > with one from Maplins... Thanks for the tip. I replaced it over the weekend and it works fine. Cheers! (At least there is someone not insulting people at the moment! :) ) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:29:14 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210102816.00915e2c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:28:16 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 594 Lines: 16 At 21:09 07/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >''You'' did not mean anyone in particular, I was talking to the reader. And >what I was really getting at is that is someone can write articles for >Gavin then why are they not already doing so for the existing mags? Who says they're not? It's sometimes good to move to a fresh magazine for fresh ideas, fresh creative input from the editor... that kind of thing. (I stopped writing for FRED at one point because it was getting too hard to come up with good ideas for menus/demos -- probably one of the worst mistakes I've made, but there you go) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:29:14 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210102817.00928074@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:28:17 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 208 Lines: 10 At 22:38 08/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >Grow up, stop thinking about yourself and think about others for a change. >-- > >Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com Which is my advice to you, Samsboss, whoever you are. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:29:14 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210102818.00923b28@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:28:18 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1587 Lines: 32 At 11:30 09/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >No, lets kill the stupid idea of a new magazine and get back to work trying >to make Sam more sucessful, if anyone on this believes for one moment that >a new mag is going to do anything to advance the Sam cause then you must >come from a different world. > >WE MUST, TOGETHER, BUT A STOP TO THIS MAD IDEA - NOW. The SAM is already dead -- it just doesn't know it yet. The only people still involved in it are doing it for a labour of love. It'll never get mainstream acceptance, nor mainstream support -- PC's and Macs are too ingrained for that, and besides, the marketing and money for R&D to get it into that position would cost millions. *ANYTHING* that keeps it "alive" -- whether it be someone putting together a magazine off their own back, or someone writing a program, or someone writing for another magazine, or the odd reference in mainstream publications helps (For the fact hungry: 4 so far in Internet Today -- thanks to yours truly, 1 in Edge magazine in an article about Lemmings...) What *EXACTLY* have you done for the SAM so far, samsboss? Frankly, I'm sick of this "well, I'm using a pen-name, so I can write whatever crap I like, and thus don't need to back it up because it would remove my anonymity". It might be about time to instill a few fidonet rules on this echo -- there's no need for anonymity on a mailing list about a very obscure computer. It's not as if we're talking about using it as a virus development kit, a cracking station for CD pirates, or using it to factor tremendously large prime numbers. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:33:01 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210103740.0092ea90@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:37:40 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 775 Lines: 20 At 17:08 09/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >>> what I was really getting at is that is someone can write articles for >>> Gavin then why are they not already doing so for the existing mags? >> >>So why not just say that, instead of using "support"? > >Oh for Christ sake, what planet you from? Support means both. If you're going to use it in a specific sense rather than as the blanket term, then please specify which sense you mean. "Support" means anything that keeps something going, or helps it. Whether that's mentioning it to people, buying it, or writing for it. Note: these different forms aren't all necessarily related. You don't have to do all of them, or more than one of them, to support a SAM magazine. You can if you want to, but it's not mandatory. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:33:02 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210103741.00937454@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:37:41 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Doc Reader with CD player :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 210 Lines: 10 Hi everyone... Just an idea... anybody like the prospect of having a document reader program for the SAM, which lets you play audio CD's using an ATAPI CD ROM with Nev's IDE interface? Just asking... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:37:16 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210104133.00935714@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:41:33 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Few SAM subjects Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 948 Lines: 23 At 10:20 10/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >New Project >=========== >Has anyone on this list had any experience with connecting a PC analogue >joystick to the SAM? > >I have an idea of using this as part of a project to build a controlling >stick to use as a pitch wheel in the big MIDI keyboards (with the SAM >processing the signals). It's part of my plan to make my SAM a Central MIDI >Processing Unit. Could be a bit of a pain in the arse -- basically you'll need to set up a timer circuit to chop the signal you get back from the joystick. The main problem is that all you've effectively got in a PC joystick (if memory serves correctly) is an R/C circuit, with the joystick controlling the "R" through some sort of pot/rheostat. You blat a signal through it, use a comparator to see when it drops below a threshold, and the amount of time it takes for the voltage to decay to that level tells you where the joystick is... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:37:16 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210104253.0092e29c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:42:53 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: SAMSboss's Identity Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 84 Lines: 8 Well, after a little digging, his/her initials are: FB More as I have it. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 10:57:36 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:53:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@ibis.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. In-Reply-To: <199702072109.VAA06083@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1237 Lines: 26 On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > ''You'' did not mean anyone in particular, I was talking to the reader. And > what I was really getting at is that is someone can write articles for > Gavin then why are they not already doing so for the existing mags? I did write an article for Format about structured programming but I never sent it off - It's lost now, anyway. Format seemed to consist of such a high calibre of writers (when I saw it a few years ago) that I felt inferior I'm writing for Gavin's mag because it's new and I wanted to put my mark into the SAM community. Writing on the list about my projects that never seem to get finished isn't exactly helping. Even if Gavin's mag only lasts one issue, and my article is in it, I would have a lot more confidence to write for others. (Samboss, your turn!) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 11:01:22 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:56:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@ibis.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Few SAM subjects In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970210104133.00935714@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1068 Lines: 20 On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > Could be a bit of a pain in the arse -- basically you'll need to set up a > timer circuit to chop the signal you get back from the joystick. The main > problem is that all you've effectively got in a PC joystick (if memory > serves correctly) is an R/C circuit, with the joystick controlling the "R" > through some sort of pot/rheostat. You blat a signal through it, use a > comparator to see when it drops below a threshold, and the amount of time it > takes for the voltage to decay to that level tells you where the joystick is... You do know how to put a downer on things! :( I was hoping it would be like reading a mouse... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 11:19:16 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210112342.009181a0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:23:42 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Few SAM subjects Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 913 Lines: 22 At 10:56 10/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >> Could be a bit of a pain in the arse -- basically you'll need to set up a >> timer circuit to chop the signal you get back from the joystick. The main >> problem is that all you've effectively got in a PC joystick (if memory >> serves correctly) is an R/C circuit, with the joystick controlling the "R" >> through some sort of pot/rheostat. You blat a signal through it, use a >> comparator to see when it drops below a threshold, and the amount of time it >> takes for the voltage to decay to that level tells you where the joystick is... > >You do know how to put a downer on things! :( >I was hoping it would be like reading a mouse... Sorry.... but did you want me to mollycoddle you, or tell you the truth? :) Do an internet search - it might have some simple circuits that you can make, and you *may* be able to get away with using a 555 timer or somesuch. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 11:21:38 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:24:46 GMT Subject: Re: Doc Reader with CD player :) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1FBEF3F5E32@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 381 Lines: 14 > Hi everyone... > > Just an idea... anybody like the prospect of having a document reader > program for the SAM, which lets you play audio CD's using an ATAPI CD ROM > with Nev's IDE interface? > > Just asking... > > Simon Without being too obvious...YES SIMON!!! YES!!! PLEEEEEASE!!!! :))) Especially as I should be receiving my IDE interface any day now (hint hint Nev :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 11:29:27 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970210113008.0092ad44@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:30:08 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Doc Reader with CD player :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 267 Lines: 11 At 11:24 10/02/97 GMT, you wrote: > >Without being too obvious...YES SIMON!!! YES!!! PLEEEEEASE!!!! :))) >Especially as I should be receiving my IDE interface any day now >(hint hint Nev :) > I'll try digging out some docs on the ATAPI CD ROM spec then ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 11:34:23 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:39:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@ibis.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Doc Reader with CD player :) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970210103741.00937454@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 752 Lines: 19 On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > Just an idea... anybody like the prospect of having a document reader > program for the SAM, which lets you play audio CD's using an ATAPI CD ROM > with Nev's IDE interface? > > Just asking... Sure.. :) (More money to spend! *urgh*) (If that guy backs his chair into me once more, I'll break his neck!! *sigh*) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | =============================================================================