From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 11:40:00 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:36:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@ibis.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Analogue joysticks In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970210112342.009181a0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 899 Lines: 22 On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > At 10:56 10/02/97 +0000, you wrote: > Sorry.... but did you want me to mollycoddle you, or tell you the truth? I just wish the truth was better! :) > Do an internet search - it might have some simple circuits that you can > make, and you *may* be able to get away with using a 555 timer or somesuch. I did. I've found a page with the pinouts etc and your memory is correct. Does anyone else fancy an analogue joystick port on their SAM? It's gonna be fun! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 12:12:47 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:03:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@ibis.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Analogue joysticks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1067 Lines: 23 On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Justin Skists wrote: > > Do an internet search - it might have some simple circuits that you can > > make, and you *may* be able to get away with using a 555 timer or somesuch. > > I did. I've found a page with the pinouts etc and your memory is correct. OK. What I think so far. Pump the signal through a couple of schmitt triggers and get something to read the length of the digital signal. Do a little calculation and voila! A 68HC11 microcontroller would be able to do this no problem. (I'm using it for my final year project concerning RS232 pulses) Place the output on a couple of 8bit D-latches that can be read by the SAM. Nay-probs!! -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From imc Mon Feb 10 12:22:15 1997 Subject: Re: SOS OSs To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:22:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <16872EA7683@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Feb 5, 97 01:20:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1430 Lines: 29 On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:20:55 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > What about MIDI software where the keyboard is used as a, like, > musical keyboard. Don't say it hasn't been done: I personally own a > crappy PC midi thing which tries to read chords and every so often > doesn't quite work too well as the keyboard matrix sucks. Probably be > a bit sucky on the current SAM keyboard, too. > Is there any way to get a keyboard with unique signals for each key? > Not exactly economical, but certainly acurate. Yes there is - most keyboards have them (that is "keyboard" in the musical sense. :-) ). Using a typewriter keyboard as a substitute piano is pretty awful really. I tried that on the +3 (and if I remember correctly I also converted it to the Sam) and although it works it is incredibly difficult to play and only stretches a couple of octaves, which isn't really enough for anything much. It is certainly possible to build a Sam keyboard which isn't confused by multiple key presses. You can do this by putting a diode in series with each key. Doing that to an existing Sam keyboard would probably not be possible. It would probably have been doable on the DK'Tronics Spectrum keyboard (anyone remember those?). I have one which consists of lines of individual keys soldered to a circuit board. (Unfortunately a leg broke off the "1" key. Lucky that there are two of them - the other is on the numeric key pad). imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 13:57:48 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:57:19 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Analogue joysticks References: <1.5.4.32.19970210112342.009181a0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: <9C51EE94666@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 257 Lines: 8 > Does anyone else fancy an analogue joystick port on their SAM? It's gonna > be fun! Call me controversial.. But I *HATE* analogue joysticks! -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 14:22:12 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:08:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave Handley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Analogue joysticks In-Reply-To: <9C51EE94666@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 10 On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, James R Curry wrote: > Call me controversial.. But I *HATE* analogue joysticks! Boy are you controversial! :) Analogue joysticks are excellent for certain things, but admittedly very crap for most games. Still, I reckon its worth getting them working on the SAM... can't be that hard can it?!? Dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 14:22:13 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:16:03 GMT+0 Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <122DC7B2209@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 331 Lines: 12 >> I FOR ONE LOVE SAM. AND I WILL NOT SHUT UP WHEN I SEE SOMEONE ABOUT >> TO DO SOMETHING TO DESTROY IT. >I love SAM too, WHICH IS WHY I'M TRYING TO DO SOMETHING FOR IT. Yes, AND MY SHIFT KEY WORKS TOO! :) Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 14:26:36 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:20:47 GMT+0 Subject: Re: A few things... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <122F34068F8@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 441 Lines: 16 > I'll tell you what would be > nice - a html SAM mag.. but we don't need one - do we? And then there's > always those boring SAM users who are too stubborn to move on, who don't > have anything to read hypertext with... ;) The foundations are in place at... www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna/s2s.htm > > Dave Whitmore > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:13:21 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: Aside. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:06:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Paveley" at Feb 9, 97 04:42:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 224 Lines: 7 Most unlikely, I would have thought. If he knew enough to tell that the z80 was dead, and he had the skills to unsolder a 40-pin i.c. then he probably would have known that he could get a z80 for a couple of quid.... Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:42:05 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:29:08 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970210102907_-2077791201@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 487 Lines: 15 In a message dated 04/02/97 23:12:26, you write: >>Why do you keep replying directly instead of to the list? Perhaps Bob >>might start to listen if a few more people agreed with the techy bods. >> >>You know, he STILL doesn't accept that the Z380 is a priority! >> >> >>Andrew Oh I agree that the Z380 has a priority, its just that to DO the Z380 we need to have the SRAM card first and the first stages of redevelopment of the ROM/DOS. You can't put the cart before the horse. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:42:06 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:29:30 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970210102920_-1475872865@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 524 Lines: 15 In a message dated 05/02/97 14:03:56, you write: >HDOS file structure: > >While Nev hasn't put any documentation out on the structure (although >*some* of it *is* documneted in the HDOS manual), from what I gather, >it's not altogether perfect. WHat we really need is an INODE structure -- >this allows a lot of flexibility in future programs. Though having said >that, a non-restricted in size INODE structure would be a boon. > >Simon He has always made full tech details available to anyone that wants them. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:42:07 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:30:27 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970210102924_-1274798177@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Doc Reader with CD player :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 311 Lines: 17 In a message dated 10/02/97 10:33:32, you write: >Hi everyone... > >Just an idea... anybody like the prospect of having a document reader >program for the SAM, which lets you play audio CD's using an ATAPI CD ROM >with Nev's IDE interface? > >Just asking... > >Simon > > Oooo, yes please, gimme-gimme. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:42:14 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:33:04 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970210102915_-1709978289@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3162 Lines: 76 In a message dated 04/02/97 23:12:46, you write: [cut] >You think so, do you? When was the last time you tried hacking into other >people's code? Changing addresses, memory structures, entire sections of >the basic... It doesn't so much as bear thinking about. > >*NB: Point on 'stable' development platforms* >The Sam os is about as stable as it is likely to get without a complete >rewrite. To alter any part of the existing Rom code would be very likely >to mess up other sections of the code with unpredictable results, we'd >never ever iron out all the bugs. At least if we start again, out >programmer will know exactly what each routine is intended to do. But this seems to contradict what everyone has been saying. Namely that they need a better DOS, a better C, more powerful development tools. Have you changed your mind? > >> >I couldn't work out if you were talking about the SRAM card or the os, so >> >I'll cover both... :) > >Well, I thought the SRAM card would be sold with the hacked-up ROMS. Not quite, the SRAM card will be sold so that people CAN hack the ROM. > >> [cut] > >Absolutely true. And if we write for the Z380 we can take advantage of all >the extra features of that chip. But that is going to take time, and where do you expect to do the software development? Not everyone has access to a PC you know. > >> See what you are saying Paul, but I thought the rework was to ALLOW the >> development of a new system - but in the process get some advance on the >> existing SAM. > >I don't understand why everybody thinks the Sam is currently incapable of >working as a development platform. Anyway, it's not an either/or choice, >for the Z380 we do need to have some sort of SRAM equivalent, but there's >no reason the two can't be designed in conjunction with each other. There is one good reason - cost. > [cut] >Only the hackers and coders will be getting the fun of poking the system, >yet in B this suddenly turns into a limited few. Hmmmmm. Besides, making >the changes to the os involves MUCH more work than several people seem to >think. The system will only be at all attractive to most users once this >work has been done, which may take some time. And then, it may be >difficult to notice the difference - other than in that it is likely to >crash more often due to unforseen consequences of fiddling about with >existing code. But a total rewrite will take much, much, much more work than you seem to think. I know, remember I was there when the original ROM was being written. > >> >As soon as ANY software is developed (and as I've said in a previous >message, we do NOT need to write a full operating system before it is in a >usable state) I would estimate that to write a few small games or whatever >would possibly even be quicker than to get a hacked rom up and running. > >And adding a Z380 is a very significant step towards the SamSon goal. No its not. It would be a premature step at the moment. We do not even know if it is the Z380 that we will go with, there are other chips to look at first. Granted, at the moment it looks the best option, but I feel it is too early to commit. > > >Andrew Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:42:15 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:35:07 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970210102918_-1643002593@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1839 Lines: 42 In a message dated 05/02/97 08:10:29, you write: >This debate seems to have split into two camps; the sceptical one and the >enthusiastical one. Let's look realistic on the SRAM. Who want's to >fork out at least 15 punds (my speculations on the price) for a gadget >that gives you nothing but some extra free RAM (for the common user)? What the 'common' user will get is the ability to make changes to the ROM/DOS in a way that has not been possible before. I'm not saying that many users will do this themselves, but I'm sure that FORMAT and FRED will be publishing pokes and overlays for the non-techy to use. It will also allow the HDOS project to move forward far faster because when we find a bit of code we don't like in the ROM it can always be replaced. Remember that, at the moment, MasterBasic patches MasterDos which in turn patches the ROM. Just linking everything together will make life far easier. Who knows how many people will buy it - my prediction would be about 25 in the first few months, others as the system develops. However, it is a necessary stage, and the sooner we take it the better. > >And when you have considered that, consider this. Somebody have to write >the software. It is basically the same amount of work both for A and >for B. So, somebody have to do something twice. No its not. No where near the same amount of work. > >Why not design an Z380 (or whatever, arm perhaps :) board with the SRAM >on-board. The extra cost will be margianl. Work on the designs Simon and >...err...have done. With more people into the project things will speed >up. Cost, well potential cost. At the moment we want small, single task boards. If we get something wrong (and we will) then we don't lose so much. It is easier to unplug a board that is possibly conflicting than it is to cut tracks. > > -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:42:15 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:39:54 GMT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <200300317ED@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2702 Lines: 51 > My problem is that I have the advantage of knowing who samsboss is. > This has been stated before and as I indicated at the time I have been > requested not to reveal their identity so PLEASE don't ask me. After all > you wouldn't like it if I broke a confidence of yours. I am also in the The thing is Nev, if someone so bluntly refuses to give his name, (especially among such a small group of people as this list, all of whom I like to call my friends), then people can only assume its for one of the following three reasons - 1. He has something to hide from his past 2. He is currently involved in something that the email list wouldn't approve of 3. He is hiding behind the name of "Samsboss" because he is already on the list under another name (!) perhaps so that he can say contraversial things, without ruining his good (real) name. Samsboss, if you fail to answer this question, then people will have to go on assuming one of the above. > Now Gavin says he has something new and different to add. I don't know > what it is. I will just have to wait for his mag to come out. As I am > sure it will. Gavin has every right to do this. If sam world fails then > we go back to the status quo. If it is a roaring success it could take > over as the font of all sam knowledge. Only time will tell. Gavin must > be aware by now that he will not get rich from sam. NOBODY has. In fact > he must be sure that he is able to sink his own money into the project. Hell, I'm not trying to make money. If anything I will be paying out my own money until we (after two or three issues) hopefully break even. I'm not starting Sam World to make money (and nor to have a fight with anyone *smile*), but to further my Sam hobby and try and do my bit for the Sam. I've enjoyed using my Coupe over the years and have probably learnt more from it that any of the other computers I've owned. Basically, I'm attempting to put something back into the Sam scene and also to support the companies involved in Sam. I feel this is the best way I can do it. > I would like to know (purely for my own sake) why Gavin is not willing > to combine his efforts with those of an existing mag, perhaps as a sub > editor or in running a SIG (Special Interest Group). Because I feel I will have more freedom to cover all Sam stuff released and not bide by any petty rules that some mags *may* have built up. I'm not sure what mag I should be a sub editor of...had you one in mind or something? > I have no doubt that what will happen, will happen. Whether for better > or worse: we can only wait and see. I sincerely doubt Sam World will be for the worse and am hoping that it will be for the better. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:53:14 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <24448.199702101542@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:42:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970210103740.0092ea90@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 10, 97 10:37:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 240 Lines: 8 > "Support" means anything that keeps something going, or helps it. Whether > that's mentioning it to people, buying it, or writing for it. Which basically covers what my reply was going to be, but is somewhat politer :) Thanks Si! Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 15:53:14 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:54:44 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-reply-to: <970210102918_-1643002593@emout15.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: <9C713670B00@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 503 Lines: 15 > Who knows how many people will buy it - my prediction would be about 25 in > the first few months, others as the system develops. However, it is a > necessary stage, and the sooner we take it the better. My aim is to buy a SAMson as SOON AS POSSIBLE!!! However, I don't know what it will cost right now, and when it will be available.. Certain times of the year are better than others. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 16:08:15 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:34:31 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Analogue joysticks References: <9C51EE94666@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: <9C6BD11154B@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 550 Lines: 15 > > Call me controversial.. But I *HATE* analogue joysticks! > > Boy are you controversial! :) > Analogue joysticks are excellent for certain things, but admittedly very > crap for most games. Still, I reckon its worth getting them working on > the SAM... can't be that hard can it?!? I suppose any extra hardware working on the SAM is a GOOD THING. Even if it's something that I don't want, there will be people that do want it. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 16:08:15 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <26155.199702101553@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:53:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702091714.RAA12850@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 9, 97 05:14:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 634 Lines: 20 > Ok, I'm wrong, I will now start looking for a new computer - because if Fine. Dodge all of the questions in the email (including your identity) and have a childish fit. If you're looking for a new computer, I hope you fix out of here soon. > I FOR ONE LOVE SAM. AND I WILL NOT SHUT UP WHEN I SEE SOMEONE ABOUT TO DO > SOMETHING TO DESTROY IT. So far, apart from Nev, you're the only one who thinks that it will. Doesn't that tell you something? And WILL YOU STOP FLAMING SHOUTING!! > I'm not the one who is about to take a very selfish ego trip. So what do you see your 'one man crusade' as then, if not an ego trip? Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 16:08:16 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <26684.199702101557@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:57:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702091708.RAA12597@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Feb 9, 97 05:08:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 449 Lines: 14 > No it ain't, this is an open mailing list, or had you forgot that. Whatever. Just make your posts clearer in future, okay? > >So why not just say that, instead of using "support"? > Oh for Christ sake, what planet you from? Support means both. Exactly - and you didn't specify which you meant! While I may not have written much, I /have/ subscribed to them for quite a while. Ech. Simon makes this clearer, go and read his... Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 17:04:00 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:59:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <970210102915_-1709978289@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4724 Lines: 108 On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 04/02/97 23:12:46, you write: > >*NB: Point on 'stable' development platforms* > >The Sam os is about as stable as it is likely to get without a complete > >rewrite. To alter any part of the existing Rom code would be very likely > >to mess up other sections of the code with unpredictable results, we'd > >never ever iron out all the bugs. At least if we start again, out > >programmer will know exactly what each routine is intended to do. > > But this seems to contradict what everyone has been saying. Namely that they > need a better DOS, a better C, more powerful development tools. Have you > changed your mind? So I am "everyone" now am I? And I haven't changed my mind; I'm not contradicting that we need the better software, but we don't need them YET. We CAN'T write a decent C compiler with the Z80B and its memory structure. What "development tools" has "everyone" been saying we need? Don't you realise that the Z380 has the extended instruction set, the better memory model, better design etc etc? How is anyone supposed to write a "better DOS" or whatever without taking advantage of these? > >Well, I thought the SRAM card would be sold with the hacked-up ROMS. > > Not quite, the SRAM card will be sold so that people CAN hack the ROM. Sold to whom? > >Absolutely true. And if we write for the Z380 we can take advantage of all > >the extra features of that chip. > > But that is going to take time, and where do you expect to do the software > development? Not everyone has access to a PC you know. Please clarify this. Are you saying that we should be writing the Z380 software without even being able to test it?? I have already said I'm working on a Z80 -> Z380 cross assembler. I have NEVER EVER suggestted we need PCs to do the work. > >> See what you are saying Paul, but I thought the rework was to ALLOW the > >> development of a new system - but in the process get some advance on the > >> existing SAM. > > > >I don't understand why everybody thinks the Sam is currently incapable of > >working as a development platform. Anyway, it's not an either/or choice, > >for the Z380 we do need to have some sort of SRAM equivalent, but there's > >no reason the two can't be designed in conjunction with each other. > > There is one good reason - cost. To be perfectly honest, I really can't see a great many ordinary Sam owners going out to buy an SRAM card, especially if they aren't even getting the improved DOS now as you seem to be saying. Much of the groundwork for a Z380 card *has been done already* Let's face it, the only way any money will ever come out of the project before absolute completion is to have a product which will be very attractive to the current Sam user base. Frankly, I don't think the SRAM card fits that bill. But any sort of Z380 however..... > >Only the hackers and coders will be getting the fun of poking the system, > >yet in B this suddenly turns into a limited few. Hmmmmm. Besides, making > >the changes to the os involves MUCH more work than several people seem to > >think. The system will only be at all attractive to most users once this > >work has been done, which may take some time. And then, it may be > >difficult to notice the difference - other than in that it is likely to > >crash more often due to unforseen consequences of fiddling about with > >existing code. > > But a total rewrite will take much, much, much more work than you seem to > think. I know, remember I was there when the original ROM was being written. BUT NOT ALL AT ONCE Now if that seems familiar, it's because I've said it before. We can sell a Z380 with about half a K of operating code, and it will be able to load things off disk. It will be usable. It will be saleable. To alter the ROMs into such a state that they will work from SRAM will take a lot of work, whatever you might say, and it will need to be done before you have anything to sell at all. And what were you *doing* when the original ROM was being written? > >As soon as ANY software is developed (and as I've said in a previous > >message, we do NOT need to write a full operating system before it is in a > >usable state) I would estimate that to write a few small games or whatever > >would possibly even be quicker than to get a hacked rom up and running. > > > >And adding a Z380 is a very significant step towards the SamSon goal. > > No its not. It would be a premature step at the moment. We do not even know > if it is the Z380 that we will go with, there are other chips to look at > first. Granted, at the moment it looks the best option, but I feel it is too > early to commit. B******S Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 17:26:24 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:24:17 GMT+0 Subject: Flame me...it's off topic... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <125F30A0A97@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 352 Lines: 13 Hello, And before I start, I'll apologise for going off topic and talking PC. I need a decent graphics package (not Paint Shop Pro, I hate it) that I can get from the net, and also some kind of Typestyling package. Any ideas? Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 17:46:52 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:44:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@galois.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Flame me...it's off topic... In-Reply-To: <125F30A0A97@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 915 Lines: 26 On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > Hello, > > And before I start, I'll apologise for going off topic and talking > PC. Off-topic?? Any post that isn't a flame seems to be off-topic at the moment! :) > > I need a decent graphics package (not Paint Shop Pro, I hate it) that > I can get from the net, and also some kind of Typestyling package. > > Any ideas? For the graphics package, try Neopaint the version I got is still DOS but amazing. (Haven't got a clue what the Typestyling package would be..) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 17:55:38 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:52:24 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Flame me...it's off topic... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <12669C60D99@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1309 Lines: 38 > On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > And before I start, I'll apologise for going off topic and talking > > PC. > > Off-topic?? Any post that isn't a flame seems to be off-topic at the > moment! :) johnna grins > > > > > I need a decent graphics package (not Paint Shop Pro, I hate it) that > > I can get from the net, and also some kind of Typestyling package. > > > > Any ideas? > > For the graphics package, try Neopaint the version I got is still DOS but > amazing. (Haven't got a clue what the Typestyling package would be..) Cheers, as for typestyling, y'know the ones that can manipulate text into all sorts of shpaes and stuff. Used to use one on the Mac called Typestyler and it was fab...sadly, I no longer have Maccess. > > -- > ============================================================================= > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | > |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | > |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | > ============================================================================= > > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:06:21 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:02:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@galois.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Flame me...it's off topic... In-Reply-To: <12669C60D99@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 838 Lines: 19 On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > Cheers, as for typestyling, y'know the ones that can manipulate text > into all sorts of shpaes and stuff. Used to use one on the Mac called > Typestyler and it was fab...sadly, I no longer have Maccess. Oh.. you mean a DTP package! :) I can't recommend a shareware one as I don't use any of them. The one I remember seeing was (I think) by the same people who made Neopaint, but it was slow. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:06:21 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:02:41 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702101802.AA28966@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Flame me...it's off topic... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 414 Lines: 10 > > For the graphics package, try Neopaint the version I got is still DOS but > > amazing. (Haven't got a clue what the Typestyling package would be..) > > Cheers, as for typestyling, y'know the ones that can manipulate text > into all sorts of shpaes and stuff. Used to use one on the Mac called > Typestyler and it was fab...sadly, I no longer have Maccess. Try WordArt in Word for Windows *spitt* -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:09:36 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:12:48 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702101612.AA28906@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3047 Lines: 65 > >This debate seems to have split into two camps; the sceptical one and the > >enthusiastical one. Let's look realistic on the SRAM. Who want's to > >fork out at least 15 punds (my speculations on the price) for a gadget > >that gives you nothing but some extra free RAM (for the common user)? > > What the 'common' user will get is the ability to make changes to the ROM/DOS > in a way that has not been possible before. I'm not saying that many users > will do this themselves, but I'm sure that FORMAT and FRED will be publishing > pokes and overlays for the non-techy to use. > > It will also allow the HDOS project to move forward far faster because when > we find a bit of code we don't like in the ROM it can always be replaced. > Remember that, at the moment, MasterBasic patches MasterDos which in turn > patches the ROM. Just linking everything together will make life far easier. I have looked at the ROM, the MasterBasic and the MasterDOS code and I find it hard to believe that anybody will ever dear patch anything in there. First of all, there is NO room in the ROM area for any patches, and you can't move anything out of the SRAM 'ROM' as it will conflict with the paging. Now, IF you manage to patch anything, even if you had the source code for the mentioned products, you will quickly find yourself in pretty deep wather with one patch correcting one bug, but introducing two more (ref. the Solaris operating system). I am all for linking everything together (well, with some sort of hiearchy or distribution), but it is hideous complex to patch 3x32Kb of code. > Who knows how many people will buy it - my prediction would be about 25 in > the first few months, others as the system develops. However, it is a > necessary stage, and the sooner we take it the better. > I agree that something must happen soon. > > > > >And when you have considered that, consider this. Somebody have to write > >the software. It is basically the same amount of work both for A and > >for B. So, somebody have to do something twice. > > No its not. No where near the same amount of work. You are talking about patching, I'm talking about a rewrite. Though, patching a piece of software might very well generate MORE work than a total rewrite. Been there - done it. > > > >Why not design an Z380 (or whatever, arm perhaps :) board with the SRAM > >on-board. The extra cost will be margianl. Work on the designs Simon and > >...err...have done. With more people into the project things will speed > >up. > > Cost, well potential cost. At the moment we want small, single task boards. > If we get something wrong (and we will) then we don't lose so much. It is > easier to unplug a board that is possibly conflicting than it is to cut > tracks. I see your point. Basically, the problem with one board for this, one board for that is that you will overload the BUS. But I buy this one. :) If you really do believe that soembody will actually patch the existing OS code (will the sources be made available?), I give. :-) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:13:01 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:11:42 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Flame me...it's off topic... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <126C1D85B6C@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1251 Lines: 30 > On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > > > Cheers, as for typestyling, y'know the ones that can manipulate text > > into all sorts of shpaes and stuff. Used to use one on the Mac called > > Typestyler and it was fab...sadly, I no longer have Maccess. > > Oh.. you mean a DTP package! :) No, it's not a DTP package. It turns text into GIFs and things and add texture and colours, outlines etc to it. Maybe there was only one piece of software like it, I don;t know... > > I can't recommend a shareware one as I don't use any of them. The one I > remember seeing was (I think) by the same people who made Neopaint, but > it was slow. > I've got PageMaker 5 and it's pretty cool - does the trick anyway! > -- > ============================================================================= > |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | > |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | > |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | > ============================================================================= > > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:31:31 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:22:36 GMT Message-Id: <199702101822.SAA15857@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Doc Reader with CD player :) From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 726 Lines: 26 On Feb 10, 1997 10:37:41, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: >Hi everyone... > >Just an idea... anybody like the prospect of having a document reader >program for the SAM, which lets you play audio CD's using an ATAPI CD ROM >with Nev's IDE interface? > >Just asking... > >Simon > You write it, I'll buy it. A couple of questions about it. 1) will you need to disconnect the IDE drive first, or will you have both connected at once? 2) I know some of the old single speed/dual speed drives which connected to special cards may not be suitable but how do you know is a drive is ATAPI standard? Looking forward to seeing it working (in time for Gloucester?). -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:31:31 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:22:56 GMT Message-Id: <199702101822.SAA15863@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 262 Lines: 17 On Feb 10, 1997 10:42:53, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: >ell, after a little digging, his/her initials are: > >FB > >More as I have it. > >Simon -- Now I wonder where he got that idea from :) WRONG. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:37:09 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:30:00 GMT Message-Id: <199702101830.SAA16015@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Flame me...it's off topic... From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 710 Lines: 23 On Feb 10, 1997 17:24:17, 'Johnna Teare ' wrote: >Hello, > >And before I start, I'll apologise for going off topic and talking >PC. > >I need a decent graphics package (not Paint Shop Pro, I hate it) that >I can get from the net, and also some kind of Typestyling package. > >Any ideas? > >Johnna Pig Teare If you have a CD drive on your machine then the best bet would be to get the Serif DTP Mega CD, I've had offers from them as cheap as 6ukp all in. It is an older version of the programs, DTP, Painter Prog, Type Manipulator, and lots of clip-art, but it is well worth the money. They do have a web-site so you could look it up. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:37:09 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:32:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave Handley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity In-Reply-To: <199702101822.SAA15863@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 292 Lines: 18 > >ell, after a little digging, his/her initials are: > > > >FB > > > >More as I have it. > > > >Simon > -- > > Now I wonder where he got that idea from :) > > WRONG. > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com Damn! For a moment there I thought I'd be able to sleep well tonight! =) Dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:37:09 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:37:16 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <12728C67F45@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 730 Lines: 25 > Now I wonder where he got that idea from :) > > WRONG. So why not put us out of our misery and tell us? And if you don't want to tell us, then why on earth not? I know that debates like this probably only make you want to keep your identity secret, but I don't think it is fair that you can be critical of others on the list and completely protect yourself from any criticism because nobody knows who you are. What with the shroud of mystery that surrounds you, I almost expect you to be a "west coast computers" employee, or possibly even the bloody MD! ;) > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 18:38:59 1997 Message-Id: <199702101840.SAA13154@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Sociology :) Date: 10 Feb 1997 18:00:29 Organization: COMMUNITY, IDENTITY, STABILITY X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 486 Lines: 19 * This message forwarded from area 'uk.current-events.censorship' * Original message dated 10 Feb 97, from Dave Whitmore I am a sociology student, and at present I'm conducting a survey about pornographic and subversive material on the internet - and peoples attitudes toward it in general. Hypothesis: Pornographic & subversive material on the internet - Media Moral Panic? Anyone interested in filling in a confidential questionaire, please email me. Thanks, Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 19:03:19 1997 Message-Id: <199702101900.UAA10183@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Sociology :) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:00:15 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1076 Lines: 32 > Van: Dave Whitmore > Aan: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Onderwerp: Sociology :) > Datum: Monday, February 10, 1997 7:00 > > * This message forwarded from area 'uk.current-events.censorship' > * Original message dated 10 Feb 97, from Dave Whitmore > > > I am a sociology student, and at present I'm conducting a survey about > pornographic and subversive material on the internet - and peoples attitudes > toward it in general. > > Hypothesis: > > Pornographic & subversive material on the internet - Media Moral Panic? > > Anyone interested in filling in a confidential questionaire, please email > me. > What? Pornographic & subversive material on the internet? Where? This could be intresting in a country where Robert Crumb is forbidden, where the BBFC cuts movie and video, because they are obscene or violent, do I need to continue? Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] [http://www.caiw.nl/~rjvveeke/hentai2.htm] Hentai Oranda -- We have been brought here by desire -- Pinhead in Hellbound (hellraiser II) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 21:08:04 1997 Message-ID: <32FF8793.1462@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:39:47 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. References: <200300317ED@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 951 Lines: 28 Gavin Smith wrote: > > > My problem is that I have the advantage of knowing who samsboss is. > > Hell, I'm not trying to make money. If anything I will be paying out my own money Good you are obviously not niave. > > > I would like to know (purely for my own sake) why Gavin is not willing > > to combine his efforts with those of an existing mag, perhaps as a sub > > editor or in running a SIG (Special Interest Group). > > Because I feel I will have more freedom to cover all Sam stuff released > and not bide by any petty rules that some mags *may* have built up. I'm > not sure what mag I should be a sub editor of...had you one in mind > or something? Thank you I can accept that. > > > I have no doubt that what will happen, will happen. Whether for better > > or worse: we can only wait and see. > > I sincerely doubt Sam World will be for the worse and am hoping that it will be for the > better. me too. > Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 21:08:04 1997 Message-ID: <32FF88DC.7F0D@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:45:16 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. References: <26155.199702101553@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 14 Mr P R Walker wrote: > > > I FOR ONE LOVE SAM. AND I WILL NOT SHUT UP WHEN I SEE SOMEONE ABOUT TO DO > > SOMETHING TO DESTROY IT. > > So far, apart from Nev, you're the only one who thinks that it will. Doesn't > that tell you something? > Oops I didn't want to give that impression. I actually don't think it will. Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 21:08:04 1997 Message-ID: <32FF8BC4.6237@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:57:40 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity References: <1.5.4.32.19970210104253.0092e29c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 180 Lines: 17 Simon Cooke wrote: > > Well, after a little digging, his/her initials are: > > FB > > More as I have it. > > Simon Oh no the're not. Nev. (aka Fat Bastard) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 21:08:04 1997 Message-Id: <199702102105.VAA04466@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Sociology :) Date: 10 Feb 1997 21:00:18 Organization: Oink References: <199702101900.UAA10183@mailserv.caiw.nl> X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 482 Lines: 18 In a message of 10 Feb 97 Robert van der Veeke wrote to : Hi Robert, Rvd> What? Pornographic & subversive material on the internet? Where? Rvd> This could be intresting in a country where Robert Crumb is forbidden, Rvd> where the BBFC cuts movie and video, because they are obscene or Rvd> violent, do I need to continue? Well you could. :) It's aimed at UK users really. Sorry about this off topic stuff. Anyone who's interested, please reply email. Bye Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Feb 10 21:33:18 1997 Message-Id: <199702102129.WAA02542@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Sociology :) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:29:12 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 486 Lines: 16 > Van: Dave Whitmore > Aan: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > Onderwerp: Sociology :) > Datum: Monday, February 10, 1997 10:00 > > Well you could. :) > It's aimed at UK users really. > I know that, you would get some very strange answers from me :) me thinks. Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] [http://www.caiw.nl/~rjvveeke/hentai2.htm] Hentai Oranda -- We have been brought here by desire -- Pinhead in Hellbound (hellraiser II) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 00:27:40 1997 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:23:56 -0500 (EST) From: Gouranga@aol.com Message-ID: <970210190829_1015422998@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1809 Lines: 42 Thanks Dave - nice to know *someone* has read my message! > I can testify that /you/ were very good to us when we ran the > adventure club and you also stepped in to your Freditorial to personally > plug my BBS. Hey, cheers! That's now For Colin : 2 Against Colin : 9,998 !!! > You've done very well lasting so long. It would have been far more profitable to jack it all in a couple of years back when I started realising that I would start having problems around now...but oddly enough, I still enjoy doing FRED most of the time...even after all this time! > The problem is that there isn't much new for any SAM magazines to go on Yup, for the last few years we've had to really push to keep the contributions in, although ultimately, that's not the biggest problem - although other disc magazines do seem to have that as their biggest (perhaps, only) problem. > it is a load of rubbish. CDR's have brought about copying the so-called *grins* I had to buy a CDR for Digital Addiction, so if anyone needs CDs written - for a small fee obviously - you know where to come...legal stuff only though naturally... > What's your opinion about the SAMSON ideas Col? They're perhaps not entirely in line with Bobs ;) Upgrading the SAM is all very well to let us get a few more colours and more memory blah blah, but I've always believed that the SAM as it is could still succeed given the right marketing. Of course, the level I'm talking about involves writing cheques with far too many zeros, and the original RRP of #200 would have to be seriously rethought. But if we can't afford to do that, we're as well doing *something* to give the SAM a glimmer of hope, and the SAMSON is the best idea I've heard so far. I'll look forward to seeing everyone at Leeds a week on Saturday!! CM From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 10:39:21 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970211101237.0092ab64@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:12:37 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 353 Lines: 13 At 19:23 10/02/97 -0500, you wrote: >I'll look forward to seeing everyone at Leeds a week on Saturday!! > >CM Speaking of which, sorry everyone - can't make it this time. Namely because I'm in Switzerland from Tuesday till Friday night, and I'll be shattered when I get back on Saturday. Simon (oh the troubled woes of the travelling programmer...) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 10:39:21 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970211101241.00927adc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:12:41 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Sociology :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 847 Lines: 31 At 18:00 10/02/97, you wrote: >Status: RO > > * This message forwarded from area 'uk.current-events.censorship' > * Original message dated 10 Feb 97, from Dave Whitmore > > >I am a sociology student, and at present I'm conducting a survey about >pornographic and subversive material on the internet - and peoples attitudes >toward it in general. > >Hypothesis: > >Pornographic & subversive material on the internet - Media Moral Panic? > >Anyone interested in filling in a confidential questionaire, please email >me. > >Thanks, > >Dave Whitmore Dave: check out http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc/mags/rumour.html for some material for your article... you might also want to check out grip.html and iact6art.html in the same directories... Any more material I can dig out, let me know -- btw: what format would you prefer any material in? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 10:39:22 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970211101242.0091e414@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:12:42 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 419 Lines: 25 At 18:22 10/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >Status: RO > >On Feb 10, 1997 10:42:53, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: > > >>ell, after a little digging, his/her initials are: >> >>FB >> >>More as I have it. >> >>Simon >-- > >Now I wonder where he got that idea from :) > >WRONG. Usenet actually... just a skim search for samsboss. But admittedly, I am wrong. Your initials are actually JW. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 10:39:26 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970211101243.009242a4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:12:43 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Doc Reader with CD player :) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1163 Lines: 38 At 18:22 10/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >Status: RO > >On Feb 10, 1997 10:37:41, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: > > >>Hi everyone... >> >>Just an idea... anybody like the prospect of having a document reader >>program for the SAM, which lets you play audio CD's using an ATAPI CD ROM >>with Nev's IDE interface? >> >>Just asking... >> >>Simon >> > >You write it, I'll buy it. > >A couple of questions about it. 1) will you need to disconnect the IDE >drive first, or will you have both connected at once? 2) I know some of the Both connected at once, but the CD will need to be as Slave (AFAICR) >old single speed/dual speed drives which connected to special cards may not >be suitable but how do you know is a drive is ATAPI standard? Well, any that connects to the IDE socket generally follows a subset of the ATAPI standard. As long as coders ensure that they're only using the "MANDATORY" parts of the ATAPI spec, there should be no problems. >Looking forward to seeing it working (in time for Gloucester?). You never know... the moment I've moved house and got my workspace sorted out again, it just might happen... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 11:16:01 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <17358.199702111111@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:11:01 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <32FF88DC.7F0D@ndirect.co.uk> from "Neville Young" at Feb 10, 97 08:45:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 250 Lines: 7 > > So far, apart from Nev, you're the only one who thinks that it will. Doesn't > Oops I didn't want to give that impression. I actually don't think it will. Fair enough - samsboss, you're now on your own. Now does /that/ tell you something? Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 11:31:15 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <19546.199702111127@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: A few things... To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:27:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702091925.TAA23686@mail.enterprise.net> from "Dave Whitmore" at Feb 9, 97 07:19:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1020 Lines: 25 > Hi Mr Paul (Rupert?) Walker, Rupert?! I don't /think/ so! :) > MPR> I couldn't quote Dave's message (because you didn't use CR/LF > There are only a few people who seem to have this problem Paul. I use > exactly the same editor I used on the BBS and you didn't say anything about > it then. Maybe there's something you can toggle in your message program? I'm havin to use a different program now - while on the BBS I could use something decent like NFX or GoldED, here I have to use elm. (Which doesn't want to be configured...) JOOI, this one came across fine. > I didn't mean completely stale. Just a bit same old same. I still > occasionally read Fred and Format when I see Derek Morgan. I used to buy a Hmm. Actually, I can understand that - they do seem a bit samey at times. Not all the time, though. > net was so I wouldn't have to buy mags for news. I'll tell you what would be > nice - a html SAM mag.. but we don't need one - do we? And then there's It would be a little static, methinks... :) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 12:39:35 1997 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:33:22 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702111233.AA29826@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 342 Lines: 15 > At 19:23 10/02/97 -0500, you wrote: > >I'll look forward to seeing everyone at Leeds a week on Saturday!! > > > >CM > > Speaking of which, sorry everyone - can't make it this time. Namely because > I'm in Switzerland from Tuesday till Friday night, and I'll be shattered > when I get back on Saturday. Bon voyage. ;) > > Simon -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 14:38:38 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:37:10 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A Future Problem. In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19970211101237.0092ab64@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: <9DDC9496729@sahara.cms.dmu.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 325 Lines: 10 > Speaking of which, sorry everyone - can't make it this time. Namely because > I'm in Switzerland from Tuesday till Friday night, and I'll be shattered > when I get back on Saturday. Oh, excuses, excuses... ;) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "20 Dollars! Aw, I wanted a peanut.." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 17:17:28 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:05:39 GMT+0 Subject: A current problem X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <13DB5E465AF@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 495 Lines: 19 > At 19:23 10/02/97 -0500, you wrote: > >I'll look forward to seeing everyone at Leeds a week on Saturday!! > > > >CM > > Speaking of which, sorry everyone - can't make it this time. Namely because > I'm in Switzerland from Tuesday till Friday night, and I'll be shattered > when I get back on Saturday. Off to sort out that Swiss bank account are you Si? :) > > Simon Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 17:17:29 1997 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:15:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@galois.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A current problem In-Reply-To: <13DB5E465AF@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 569 Lines: 13 On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > Off to sort out that Swiss bank account are you Si? I knew the SAM commercial scene was better than you guys were letting on! :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 17:31:12 1997 Message-Id: <199702111724.SAA23923@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: A current problem To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 11 Feb 97 18:24:33 MET In-Reply-To: <13DB5E465AF@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk>; from "Johnna Teare" at Feb 11, 97 5:05 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 800 Lines: 16 > Off to sort out that Swiss bank account are you Si? > I thought I was the only one with one of those! :) Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! SimCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/simcoupe/simcoupe_distr.html *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 18:44:04 1997 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:36:57 GMT Message-Id: <199702111836.SAA27634@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 480 Lines: 18 On Feb 11, 1997 11:11:01, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >> > So far, apart from Nev, you're the only one who thinks that it will. >Doesn't >> Oops I didn't want to give that impression. I actually don't think it will. > >Fair enough - samsboss, you're now on your own. Now does /that/ tell you >something? > >Paul Yes, it tells me that there are a few people on this list that do not really understand economics. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 19:12:21 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:03:08 GMT+0 Subject: Re: A Future Problem. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <13F9FA47E2F@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2057 Lines: 51 > >Fair enough - samsboss, you're now on your own. Now does /that/ tell you > >something? > > > >Paul > > Yes, it tells me that there are a few people on this list that do not > really understand economics. How can that be true? Economic theory suggests that products can only survive if there is a market for them - therefore if nobody likes SAM World then it will be unable to continue. It's getting a bit sad this argument is now, you contniue to claim that SAM World will kill the SAM (although you never state exactly how) when the evidence suggests otherwise. FRED and Format have done a wonderful job of keeping the SAM alive over the last five years and they have managed to do that even whilst there have been other magazines on the scene. You are entitled to your views, and if the does die because of SAM World you'll be able to be anonymously smug for the rest of your days, but going on the basis of every other 'independent' magazine that has graced the SAM scene the facts are very different. What is not healthy for the SAM is a bunch of users being actively vindictive towards each other when we are all supposed to be advancing the machine in each and every way possible. Going on the basis of my own magazine, SAM World will not create any major ripples in the SAM ocean, but it will keep a small few people entertained and interested in the computer and there is not harm done in that case. I hope that this will end the argument once and for all, have we really got nothing more to contribute to the SAM scene than put-downs for other users who are trying to do their bit for the 'SAM World'? Maybe one day when your identity is discovered your argument may be able to be seen in a different light. If you have factual knowledge that the production of SAM World will undermine confidence in the world of SAM, then please let us all know. > -- > > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 19:27:46 1997 Message-Id: <199702111928.TAA06667@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Sociology :) Date: 11 Feb 1997 19:19:15 Organization: 'Earthling' is out.. good album that! References: <1.5.4.32.19970211101241.00927adc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1680 Lines: 28 In a message of 11 Feb 97 Simon Cooke wrote to sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no: Hi Simon, (and sorry to those who might be fed up with this thread) >> Pornographic & subversive material on the internet - Media Moral Panic? SC> Dave: check out http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc/mags/rumour.html for SC> some material for your article... you might also want to check out SC> grip.html and iact6art.html in the same directories... Will do so when I log on again later thanks. SC> Any more material I can dig out, let me know -- btw: what format would SC> you prefer any material in? Any format really. I mean I can convert PC text files or html to a form of text that I can use. The same applies to everyone - any text files welcome. The college library keeps back issues of a few internet magazines, so if you can think of any issues of mags you've read with good articles, please let me know the mag name and issue number. It's become an interesting subject really, because just as I started putting feelers out, some fool decided to anonymously spam everyone on enterprise.net (though email) with a warning that Enterprise were condoning paedophile activity - by refusing to remove a certain newsgroup from its server. They were threatening to involve New Scotland Yard and the Manx government and caused a right old stink. The 'local' enterprise.general newsgroup subsequentley burst into life with all kinds of opinions on the subject. I'll be glad when it's over though. Up to now I've always thought a bit of porn was something to laugh about, but some of the stuff out there is /really/ sick if you go looking in the right (really wrong) places. :/ Bye, Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 11 19:27:46 1997 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:25:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. In-Reply-To: <199702111836.SAA27634@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 574 Lines: 24 On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >Fair enough - samsboss, you're now on your own. Now does /that/ tell you > >something? > > > >Paul > > Yes, it tells me that there are a few people on this list that do not > really understand economics. And you are one of them. I am getting sick of this whole argument. You have been asked to stop, advised to stop, and told to stop; both through the list and in direct mails. Here's another one, before I set up a local kill-file and never have to read your irritating postings again.... STOP! Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 07:47:38 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:44:06 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702120744.AA00521@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A current problem X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 143 Lines: 8 > > > Off to sort out that Swiss bank account are you Si? > > > I thought I was the only one with one of those! :) Remember me? :) -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 10:02:36 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:49:13 GMT Message-Id: <199702120949.JAA13765@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 443 Lines: 12 On Feb 10, 1997 16:59:13, 'Andrew Collier ' wrote: >So I am "everyone" now am I? And I haven't changed my mind; I'm not >contradicting that we need the better software, but we don't need them >YET. We CAN'T write a decent C compiler with the Z80B and its memory >structure. What "development tools" has "everyone" been saying we need? -- Only a poor workman blames his tools... Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 10:02:37 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:49:08 GMT Message-Id: <199702120949.JAA13759@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2515 Lines: 62 On Feb 10, 1997 18:37:16, 'Johnna Teare ' wrote: > >> Now I wonder where he got that idea from :) >> >> WRONG. > >So why not put us out of our misery and tell us? And if you don't >want to tell us, then why on earth not? Two reasons. 1) Like a very large number of people with internet access I had to select a screen name when I signed up. The mix/match of my own name were all rejected. SAMSBOSS came to mind because, as I've said before, my SAM is the ONLY thing which I can boss around. 2) I am paid for my skills with computers. If I gave information and advice on this mailing list, that was eventually traced back to me, I'm sure I would no longer find people prepared to pay me money - they would sign-on here and get it for nout. > >I know that debates like this probably only make you want to keep >your identity secret, but I don't think it is fair that you can be >critical of others on the list and completely protect yourself from >any criticism because nobody knows who you are. Oh I think I get plenty of criticism, don't you. If I constantly changed my user name then that would be different, but I don't - I stand before you all as an equal - I do know one or two of you from Gloucester shows, but that is a very small minority. I would not use my secret identity to embarrass any of you is I met you, that would not be very fair would it? Ok, some background which I will give. ZX81(1981) ZX Spectrum (1982) SAM (1989). Programming, Basic, Fortran, Machine Code (plus very little C and Forth) Hardware construction, can use a soldering iron, understand theory but only a little practical design (however I do have mates that do it for a living) Sometime play ignorant of computer terms because some that people use here are open to interpretation - language is fast moving in computers and not everyone uses the same term to mean the same thing. Often play the fool, cos you lot are so dull at times - life is short so we have to enjoy it, smile - and the whole world wonders what you have been up to.... > >What with the shroud of mystery that surrounds you, I almost expect >you to be a "west coast computers" employee, or possibly even the >bloody MD! > I am not employed by West Coast Computers, Format Publications, Fred Publishing, Revelations Software.... (insert any other names you can think of). >;) >> And yes, sometime I despair about the level of education these days. Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 10:02:37 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:49:15 GMT Message-Id: <199702120949.JAA13769@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 465 Lines: 17 On Feb 10, 1997 15:39:54, '"Gavin Smith" ' wrote: >Hell, I'm not trying to make money. If anything I will be paying out my own >money >until we (after two or three issues) hopefully break even. I'm not starting Sam > >World to make money And there lies the root of the problem. You would do something that takes the bread out of other peoples mouths just so you can /play/ at running a magazine. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 10:02:37 1997 Message-Id: <199702120956.KAA24467@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: Re: A current problem To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 97 10:56:32 MET In-Reply-To: <9702120744.AA00521@asmal.edh-net>; from "Frode Tenneboe" at Feb 12, 97 8:44 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2751 Lines: 53 Hello All, > > I thought I was the only one with one of those! :) > > Remember me? :) Bugger (Smug look washes from his face). However I am the only one with the latest on SimCoupe (A brilliant recovery). I've been working from several angles recently. At the moment all the things I have done are experimental, but hopefully most of them will be in the next release. The main change in the emulation is the introduction of proper instruction timing, this has quite a few advantages over the method I was using which used a mean number of tstates per line. These include a working attr and hpen port, and the possibility of working border effects. The latter is sort of working at the moment, but the timings are not correct yet. I've also been working on the GUI system. This is display independent, and uses the SAM display (very like Z80 does). Finally, I'll put in my 2p worth regarding the SamsBoss argument. I can't see anyway that a new Sam Magazine (especially one which the producer will probably fund from his own pocket), can cause any harm to the Sam. If Anything I would think that my emulator project would be far worse, possibly encouraging people not to buy the hardware, even though they are interested in the machine. Bob is a little worried about this, but really when the emulator needs a machine that costs 5-10 times the cost of a Sam the agument is a little moot. I've been keeping rather quiet over the argument, but now I think I should point out a few facts. All the people in favour of the magazine on this magazine have shown their loyalty to the Sam, they have written software and built hardware, and supported the comunity in other ways in the most part using their own time (and their own expense). As far as I know nearly all the people on this list are either students or hold down a full time job. As SamsBoss continues to remain anonymous I cannopt say whether he to contributes to the machine in the same way, but without showing us some evidence I don't see why he should dictate to the rest of us. 'nough said Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! SimCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/simcoupe/simcoupe_distr.html *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 10:09:52 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970212101449.0092f170@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:14:49 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 720 Lines: 22 At 09:49 12/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >Status: > >On Feb 10, 1997 16:59:13, 'Andrew Collier ' wrote: > > >>So I am "everyone" now am I? And I haven't changed my mind; I'm not >>contradicting that we need the better software, but we don't need them >>YET. We CAN'T write a decent C compiler with the Z80B and its memory >>structure. What "development tools" has "everyone" been saying we need? >-- > >Only a poor workman blames his tools... Go on then - you port ZIP and UNZIP to the SAM using the source code on the Unix groups. Modify it as much as you like. Then get it to work using SAM C as your compiler. This challenge is one that I think you'll find most enlightening. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 10:13:51 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970212101827.0092b510@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:18:27 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 530 Lines: 14 At 09:49 12/02/97 GMT, you wrote: >2) I am paid for my skills with computers. If I gave information and advice >on this mailing list, that was eventually traced back to me, I'm sure I >would no longer find people prepared to pay me money - they would sign-on >here and get it for nout. Well, that's ego for you. If my boss found out that I was gladly giving information on this list, then he'd charge 500 quid a day. Besides, in the modern computing world, SAM programming and hardware knowledge is decidedly useless. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 11:57:16 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:46:44 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970212064642_42450979@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1752 Lines: 44 I would, again, like to invite the members of this mailing list to help with the project that hopefully will end, in time, with a new SAM. There has been too many people going off an a tangent recently and we now need to start steering things back on course - or we will never have anything to show for our efforts. The tasks to be undertaken have the following priority order:- 1) Finish and agree design of SRAM card and get a first batch of boards produced. 2) Work to move ROM+Masterdos+HDOS into SRAM to work /AS IS/. 3) Work to intergrate ROM+Masterdos+HDOS within the SRAM to remove duplication and bugs. Also some work in testing new ideas while using the operating system as a framework. 4) Agree memory layout for the Z380 card so that work can be advanced on that project. 5) Agree screen layouts and I/O communication protocal for new graphics sub-system. Well there's lots more, but I guess that is enough for now. The fact that one item is below another does not mean that we can't continue to talk about it, it just that the above list is the order in which thing will need to be finished - hence the priority. Z80 source code for the ROM and MasterDOS exist. C source code for HDOS exists, as does the Z80 source that the compiler generates. There may be a little work to do getting the code into, say, Comet - but we can look at that quite quickly. So, will you please look at the SRAM board as that has the highest priority - nothing else can get started until that it ready. Then, I would like some idea of who will be available to look at the programming side. I'm looking at it as a job that will split down so as many as possible can take a stab at things - that will be the nice thing about having the ROM soft. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 11:57:34 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:46:34 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970212064633_819405346@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2314 Lines: 44 In a message dated 10/02/97 10:55:05, you write: >I did write an article for Format about structured programming but I never >sent it off - It's lost now, anyway. Format seemed to consist of such a >high calibre of writers (when I saw it a few years ago) that I felt inferior > Oh Justin, I'm so sad, you seem to have got totally the wrong end of the stick somehow. What you see in FORMAT is the finished article (pun), you ought to see how some start their life. Its what we are here for Justin, to take the articles that are produced by people like yourself and help turn them into something you can be pleased to see in print. As soon as an article arrives, I read it. About 3% get rejected at this stage, usually because they are too similar to something that is already on file or that has already appeared in the last few issues. Even then, we sometime say "its good, but it will have to wait for 12 to 18 months before we can print it because we've just had one like it". Next, it gets edited. Sometimes quickly, sometime this can take several months. If, on editing, I have to make more that minimal changes then I usually send a printed copy of the article back to the author for his comments, and possibly more amendments, before its run in FORMAT. Once in a very blue moon we will pass on an article to one of the more established writers (alway of course after consulting with the author) so that a rewrite can be done and the byline shared. Usually this is because someone has written some fantastic coding, but can't cope with the explanation side. Sometimes I feel that something is not well enough explained, maybe then it is necessary for the author to do a little rewrite to get things working. But every step of the way we, Jenny and myself, are here to help. Very few of the authors who have written for FORMAT over the years has done any writing before, so I take it as a compliment when you use the phrase "high calibre". The truth is Justin, that your aricle could also have been of the same "high calibre" if you had sent it in. Don't worry about the spelling (anyone who knows me will tell you that I cant sell tofeees) and we will help with the grammer and puntuation. Its the ideas we look for. So come on Justin, give us a chance - you will find it rewarding I'm sure. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 11:57:34 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:46:40 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970212064640_1015596066@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: An Open Offer (was Re: A Future Problem.) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5507 Lines: 99 Ok, Ok, Ok. Lets put a stop to this. Why do things always degenerate into a cat fight on this mailing list? Right, I've read all the postings to the list, I've also had quite a few direct emails (thank you to those who took the time to write). The situation appears to be (and I know you will tell me if I'm wrong) that Gavin Smith is planning a new magazine and, at least in the first instant, Samsboss asked him to reconsider "for the sake of SAM". >From there on it has gone rapidly downhill. I have had copies of some emails that were not distributed through the mailing list sent to me, so I have a clearer picture than some of you. Well, for starters, Gavin is perfectly entitled to do what he wants. But apart from that, Samsboss is totally, 100% right. Now I'm sorry if that puts a few noses out of joint on this list, but come on, are you lot living in the real world? Because from some of the comments that have been aired here in the last week or so I really doubt it. Format Publications is reasonably strong and heathy, even though the Spectrum and SAM version of FORMAT has been losing money for some time. Its economics folks, those of the /real world/. SAM users have turned out to be a pretty frugal bunch in the main, and there is not a lot of money spent these days (we are no longer in the heady days of 1991/92 - times have changed). Ok, some people buy everything that comes out, but they are in the minority. Even with Spectrum users (larger in number than SAM users of course) taken into account there is no way at the moment a magazine like FORMAT can make a profit on its own. Format Publications has other strings to it bow, FORMAT PC simply being the newest. In recent years it has been necessary to shift the burden of the overheads on to other things. However, anyone with a even a little common sense will tell you that the last thing the SAM world needs at the moment is splitting apart (it is already too full of small factions that think they are god's gift to the SAM). We are not big enough. And I'm sorry, but any idiot that thinks the publication of a new magazine will not damage the existing ones had better go back to school and learn a little basic economics. Quite frankly, I've been amazed at the stupidity and bloody-mindedness that has been shown on this list over the last week. Even if Gavin has the money to GIVE AWAY his magazine, it will still damage the SAM industry because it will attract some readers (however few) away from the existing ones. Remember that if SAM is to survive it needs to be supported in a commercial way. If Gavin was saying he was going to launch a new mag on a commercial basis then that would be fair competition, but that is not what he is doing , he is saying that he will sell a magazine for around 50p to a pound, he says he will be offering very cheap (possibly free) advertising - that is not commercial, and that is what Samsboss is /most/ right about. Again, sorry if this is going against your own personal cherished ideas - all I am doing is stating cold, hard, commercial facts. Certainly I have invested a lot of my own money in keeping SAM alive. I did it because I love the machine, it had a lot of me in it when it was first launched, and a lot more of me in it by now. I'm glad that others love the machine as well - it is always good to see so many people at the Gloucester shows. But it is true to say that I can't throw money at it if I don't make the money in the first place. And the more money I have to use to subsidise FORMAT the less there is to help out on other projects. If we all pull together. And I would be the first to admit that it will be a bloody big IF. Then I don't think all is lost. I believe that a new market can grow out of the ashes of the old - one that will hopefully expand and flourish. A market that will have room for lots of people to 'do their own thing'. But it can't happen if we are constantly at each other throats. We have to co-operate, not only on this list, but beyond, in the wider SAM world. We cannot hope to attract new users to the existing SAM (or any future SAM) if we are seen by others as constantly squabbling amongst ourselves. So a peace treaty must be declared NOW. Everyone must take a step back and think very hard about the future of SAM. Unless we do that then it is best that we just pack up and forget the whole thing. So now, to the title of this posting. AN OPEN OFFER. At this time, I'm not sure what ideas Gavin Smith had for his proposed magazine, all he ever says in the emails I have seen is that it will contain things the others don't. While it will not bring about the demise of FORMAT it is true that we would all be better off if he does not go ahead with the project. FORMAT is, always has been, and always will be, open to all contributors - there have been very few articles we have turned away over the years. I do not impose my views on the authors except where it is necessary to abide by the rules of publishing. I now invite Gavin, and everyone else who reads this, to give FORMAT a try BEFORE thinking about starting a new magazine. FORMAT is the most widely read SAM magazine - by far, so if people have things they want to say then my question has to be "where better than FORMAT to say it?" We have ten years behind us, we have the resources to publish and distribute to the widest possible audience. Why not support what is already here? Surely you can all see that this is the best way forward. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 12:25:55 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:22:47 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702121222.AA01355@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2473 Lines: 83 > I would, again, like to invite the members of this mailing list to help with > the project that hopefully will end, in time, with a new SAM. There has been > too many people going off an a tangent recently and we now need to start > steering things back on course - or we will never have anything to show for > our efforts. > > The tasks to be undertaken have the following priority order:- Lets see... > > 1) Finish and agree design of SRAM card and get a first batch of boards > produced. OK! Is there a higher level design? How will it operate? > > 2) Work to move ROM+Masterdos+HDOS into SRAM to work /AS IS/. That's why I ask. It might get tricky depending on the paging controls. > > 3) Work to intergrate ROM+Masterdos+HDOS within the SRAM to remove > duplication and bugs. Also some work in testing new ideas while using the > operating system as a framework. Yes, well...I can agree on it being the ideal way to go if the cost is small, but is it? > > 4) Agree memory layout for the Z380 card so that work can be advanced on that > project. Should be moved up. :) > > 5) Agree screen layouts and I/O communication protocal for new graphics > sub-system. Right. > > Well there's lots more, but I guess that is enough for now. The fact that one > item is below another does not mean that we can't continue to talk about it, > it just that the above list is the order in which thing will need to be > finished - hence the priority. One thing you should cosider is to merge MDOS and HDOS into one DOS. It should be one DOS with 'plug-ins' for tape, disc, harddrive, CDROM, vinyl, etc. > > Z80 source code for the ROM and MasterDOS exist. For anybody to use? > C source code for HDOS exists, as does the Z80 source that the compiler > generates. What type of C? > There may be a little work to do getting the code into, say, Comet - but we > can look at that quite quickly. Shouldn't take an hour. :) > > So, will you please look at the SRAM board as that has the highest priority - > nothing else can get started until that it ready. Is that the sram.zip or the sram2???.zip? If the latter, I'll see if I can get it sized down... > > Then, I would like some idea of who will be available to look at the > programming side. I'm looking at it as a job that will split down so as many > as possible can take a stab at things - that will be the nice thing about > having the ROM soft. If I have the time, I'll be glad to help. -Frode From imc Wed Feb 12 12:32:39 1997 Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:32:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970211101242.0091e414@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 11, 97 10:12:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 834 Lines: 28 On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:12:42 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > >>ell, after a little digging, his/her initials are: > >>FB > >Now I wonder where he got that idea from :) > >WRONG. Well I bet he got that from your signature, but as I understand it that merely stands for "fat bastard". > Usenet actually... just a skim search for samsboss. Good idea. I was amazed to discover that samsboss and Bob have both posted over 100 articles to uk.singles this year and not a lot of articles elsewhere. >From what I've read, they seem to concentrate on one liners and being facetious. :-) However I have found out that samsboss's postcode appears to be BB8 6AB. Anyone know that area? Where is BB8 anyway? imc PS I was also rather surprised to discover that a female member of this computing lab is also rather active in uk.singles. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 12:55:26 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:51:20 GMT Subject: Re: An Open Offer (was Re: A Future Problem.) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <22D616E61A2@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4341 Lines: 86 > Ok, Ok, Ok. Lets put a stop to this. You've just started the whole bloody thing all over again. > Why do things always degenerate into a cat fight on this mailing list? Because one or two people always believe they are right, no matter how many people tell them they are wrong. > Right, I've read all the postings to the list, I've also had quite a few > direct emails (thank you to those who took the time to write). I took the time to write to you several times Bob. I don't think you have answered any of my mails since December (when I offered to spend my own time on setting a website up for you and WCC). I also wrote to you about Sam World early this year - no replies to any of them. > From there on it has gone rapidly downhill. I have had copies of some emails > that were not distributed through the mailing list sent to me, so I have a > clearer picture than some of you. Now this concerns me. I assume this means that Samsboss has forwarded you some mails that I had apparently written in the first place. Just how much of it did he edit? He much of his own swearing, insults and comments about others on this list did he delete? How many insults did he add about you, that I was meant to have said? If Samsboss is trying to gain support by mailing people in private, with things that I was meant to have said, could they mail me and tell me? Just so I know and can confirm that I did actually say it? And if you want to see some mails that he has sent to me, I have a nice little collection of them. > But apart from that, Samsboss is totally, 100% right. And the rest of us are wrong? (Or at least the rest of us that have commented on the subject). > However, anyone with a even a little common sense will tell you that the last > thing the SAM world needs at the moment is splitting apart (it is already too > full of small factions that think they are god's gift to the SAM). We are not > big enough. And I'm sorry, but any idiot that thinks the publication of a new Thanks Bob, how nice of you to say so. Hmm, Samboss and you both call me an idiot...*puts on suspicious look* > Even if Gavin has the money to GIVE AWAY his magazine, it will still damage > the SAM industry because it will attract some readers (however few) away from > the existing ones. Remember that if SAM is to survive it needs to be > supported in a commercial way. If Gavin was saying he was going to launch a > new mag on a commercial basis then that would be fair competition, but that > is not what he is doing , he is saying that he will sell a magazine for > around 50p to a pound, he says he will be offering very cheap (possibly free) > advertising - that is not commercial, and that is what Samsboss is /most/ > right about. Issues 1 and 2 will contain free adverts because I don't think Sam companies would gain enough custom that would be the worth their while paying for adverts.. The companies that will have adverts in the first couple of issues will be companies that don't advertise in Format or who have contributed to SW in some way. You can't argue with that Bob! Speaking of adverts, can I put a Format and WCC advert in Sam World? (Or can you give me contact with the MD of WCC so that I can ask him). > Certainly I have invested a lot of my own money in keeping SAM alive. Permission to do the same? > So a peace treaty must be declared NOW. Everyone must take a step back and > think very hard about the future of SAM. Unless we do that then it is best > that we just pack up and forget the whole thing. I'm not starting Sam World to have a fight! Anything but that *sigh* > I now invite Gavin, and everyone else who reads this, to give FORMAT a try > BEFORE thinking about starting a new magazine. FORMAT is the most widely read > SAM magazine - by far, so if people have things they want to say then my > question has to be "where better than FORMAT to say it?" We have ten years > behind us, we have the resources to publish and distribute to the widest > possible audience. Why not support what is already here? Surely you can all > see that this is the best way forward. If Format was the only magazine that I read over the last few years, I wouldn't know or own half the software and other Sam items that I do now. Otherwise Format is a fine mag that I read every month. Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 13:28:35 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <15021.199702121321@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Next Step. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:21:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970212064642_42450979@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Feb 12, 97 06:46:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1063 Lines: 23 > 3) Work to intergrate ROM+Masterdos+HDOS within the SRAM to remove > duplication and bugs. Also some work in testing new ideas while using the > operating system as a framework. Couple of questions... a) Why does this have to be done within the SRAM? I thought the same trick that's used to make the sam emulate the spectrum (basically telling the sam its rom is in memory, if I've understood it properly) could be used to do this b) Are you /really/ sure you've thought about the amount of work needed to get them all to work together, without rewriting large chunks of code? From the comments here, the ROM is optimised for space and speed, as hopefully will be the others. This is going to make the job of getting them to work together without a mass of bugs, incompatabilities etc. very hard. > So, will you please look at the SRAM board as that has the highest priority - > nothing else can get started until that it ready. This is where I don't get to feel guilty, because I wouldn't know a bad design from a good one... :) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 13:35:22 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <15785.199702121328@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: An Open Offer (was Re: A Future Problem.) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:28:32 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970212064640_1015596066@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Feb 12, 97 06:46:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3136 Lines: 74 > But apart from that, Samsboss is totally, 100% right. Your opinion, I'm afraid, nothing more. Unless you suddenly speak for all of your readers, and I know that you don't. > on, are you lot living in the real world? Because from some of the comments > that have been aired here in the last week or so I really doubt it. IMO most came from Samsboss, but what the hell. > However, anyone with a even a little common sense will tell you that the last > thing the SAM world needs at the moment is splitting apart (it is already too Why do you think a magazine will split it apart? If I subscribe to Sam World, it wouldn't mean that I'd stop subscribing to Format and Fred, just that I'd have three mags. Not a problem. > big enough. And I'm sorry, but any idiot that thinks the publication of a new > magazine will not damage the existing ones had better go back to school and Depends largely on the market. > learn a little basic economics. Quite frankly, I've been amazed at the > stupidity and bloody-mindedness that has been shown on this list over the Again, most of it from Samsboss. > around 50p to a pound, he says he will be offering very cheap (possibly free) > advertising - that is not commercial, and that is what Samsboss is /most/ In which case, this level cannot be continued, Sam World will fold, and people will return to a reliable magazine, Format. You don't lose out, and neither do most people. > Again, sorry if this is going against your own personal cherished ideas - all > I am doing is stating cold, hard, commercial facts. "Facts" in this case are extremely mutable. > Certainly I have invested a lot of my own money in keeping SAM alive. I did Yes, we know. You've told us, again, and again, and ... > thing'. But it can't happen if we are constantly at each other throats. We > have to co-operate, not only on this list, but beyond, in the wider SAM Okay ... as you seem to be "in" so well with Samsboss, can you please get him to stop acting as though he's the only person here that knows anything, and he's automatically right? Because that's the attitude that's been coming across. He doesn't even seem willing to listen to other people, which is the most irritating part - and he's even antagonised Cookie, which I don't see very often! > So now, to the title of this posting. AN OPEN OFFER. Heh. An open offer to try a magazine that they could have tried anyway ... not much of an offer, is it? :) > possible audience. Why not support what is already here? Surely you can all > see that this is the best way forward. Sometimes a little freshness is needed. Maybe I should clarify a few things. It's not even certain that I'll get Sam world - I don't seem to spend much time on Sam anymore anyway, even with the mags I get. However, I don't like it when people are basically instructed to do something by someone who is too cowardly to reveal their real name (not that it would make it a lot better, but you know what I mean). Sam is shrinking, slowly. The only thing keeping it going is enthusiasm - and if Gavin's expression of this is in a magazine, that's his business. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 13:42:03 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199702121353.NAA06732@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS MAOS To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:53:09 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 8114 Lines: 182 >>> It's a pointless system -- why do you need to identify which >>> programs are using what memory block in terms of identifier >>> numbers? Not only that, but what happens if you run the same >>> program twice? How does it work out which memory pages it can >>> remove from the tbale and which it can't? >>> >>Another strange question! Why is it done in the this way in the >>current SAM? >>Because we want to allocate memory! We dont want to use memory that >>is already in use! We dont want to ask every single application, >>program and operating system what memory it is using every time we >>want to allocate some to a new memory for any purpose. > >No... you misunderstnad what I mean. Right: you have a certain number of >page numbers. Now, in the existing SAM system, these numbers are >arbitrarily allocated to applications by the programmer. This means that >if you load, say, COMET, it allocates itself a whole heap of &B0 marked >pages. Joe Q Programmer comes along and things "wow... for my scratch >area in my paint utility, I'll allocate pages using &B0!"... next thing >you know, if you're running both at the same time (not impossible, >especially if you're developing using COMET), your paint program has >deallocated all "obviously" old instances of its memory allocation left >over from the last time it "must have been" run, and COMET dies horribly. No... you misunderstand what I mean. MY numbers are allocated by the programmer, COMET will not allocate B0 pages, but A0 pages as these are of type 'Other Code'. A program will not allocate arbitary page numbers! But the page numbers I stated in the original post. If the art program needs to allocate pages (assuming it is also a non-GUI based program) then it will allocate its own A0 pages. It will not de-allocate all A0 pages. It will record the pages it allocated and de-allocate them when desired. >>Run the same program twice? Remove pages from the table? Pages are >>only removed from the table if the 'remove stated pages from the >>table' type of entry point is called! The module is not intelegent! >>Intelegence for such a thing is a VERY VERY bad thing! -ever touched >>Windows'95? ( No, but I know a man who has! ). > >No -- imagine a program which does this: > >Look for instance of this program running already. >If it can't find one, deallocate all pages marked with "0x??", This will never happen, as you will know if you read what I wrote as opposed to what you may think I wrote. How can, say a GUI application program de-allocate all pages marked with an &80 number (i.e. all GUI pages)? That would be crazyness! I even stated 'remove stated pages from the table' in my response, no mention of 'removing pages of specified identifier' as you seem to have read. [put ROM and FLASH pages in the allocation table] >Quite simple: you don't treat ROM or FLASH as memory in the tables -- >it's pointless doing so in fact. FLASH memory acts in a considerably >different way to normal memory -- for one, you can't arbitrarily >reprogram areas -- you have to do it in blocks of (last time I looked) 4K >minimum. These are wiped, and then reprogrammed. ROM can't be programmed >at all. So why include it in the memory management system at all? A valid reason for this has already been stated on the list. [why do we need to have different labels for different types of page] >>2) So we can implement the priority system I mentioned next: > >It's implementable in other ways. Such as? You WILL need a distiction between the different types of pages at roughly the level I stated. [competely erronius assumption comming up...] >>>You're talking about a Mac OS/Windows method here... NAmely dynamic >>>resource loading/dynamically linked library system. >>No. I am not. >>I think I understand where you lost me now. These systems are crap! >>If you thought I was tring to rip-off one of these systems then you >>had every right to get worried about my sanity! > >No, I think you're mixing and matching about 4 or 5 different views of >memory management in a not very lucid manner. > >>Lets take a look at 'Mac Multiprogramming' rubbish. >>They allocate memory on a '1 label for 1 program' basis. If you load >>Netscape, MacX, The Finder, Word, MacHTTP 2.2, etc... Then all are >>allocated a unique identifier in the 'Memory Mapper' as they call >>it. > >Yes, sounds perfectly fine and logical to me. Does it? You seem to be changing your tune! When you first responded to my post you stated... SI> It's a pointless system -- why do you need to identify which programs SI> are using what memory block in terms of identifier numbers? Not only SI> that, but ... [SNIP] SI> Simon I don't think that is very open to interpretation! I am not mixing or matching any number of views. I specified one system in the original post and have stuck with it, unlike you seem to. It appears I did not describe the potential system well enough in the first place, but I don't belive my response was anywhere near as ambiguous to allow your misinterpretation of it. It now sounds like you are the one tring to rip-off one of these crap systems! >>Because of the work involved no one bothers with using utility pages >>in everyday programs. A single hook code could be provided in the >>MAOS for this utilities allocation, which could, perhaps be >>vectored and handled in another OS module. > >The reason nobody uses utility allocation pages is because they don't >need to use that system -- the only things that *do* use it tend to be >mouse drivers, etc. Which is fair enough. Other programs just >block-allocate pages, or don't bother at all -- dangerous, but games can >do that anyway, because they're not going to go back to BASIC without a >reset. (In a perfect world, of course, this wouldn't be the case). Funny how you can just add another angle, backing up my point and make it sound like you are disagreeing with me. In the multi-tasking world of the SAMSONS GUI, they will NEED to use this 'system' or they are VERY likely to find half of their code has been written over! I suggeted a simple solution: provide well chosen hook codes to do exactly what the programer will want to do. It seems like I am repeating myself a lot, if only people would READ things the first time around! REAL programs of course, will allocate memory correctly by simply calling the entry points to the MAOS specifically designed for this job and detailed already. >>Not a bad idea! At least I have helped inspire some progress! Even >>if I am not taken seriously. > >The thing is, I've been working on memory management systems on the SAM >on and off for over 2 years now, for use in my Terminate system. Until >now, I had a few conceptual problems in trying to get around the paging >system. Most of my ideas have come from the Mac system, with some of my >experience in programming on others taken into account, as well as >reading Don Knuth's Art of Programming, and the C programming Language by >K&R. That is one thing I have never been able to work out. Why on earth do people do this? Exspecially considering that experiance is nothing compared to innovation (Numbly's 3rd law). If you read what I wrote you would KNOW that I also have more than a passing knowledge of the Mac system at least, knowledge should be displayed by reference, not stated as a poinless and meaningless list. I could just as easily list my relevent computing experience and start a 'knoledge base war'. This is silly. Unlike you you, I see the Mac system and see its many flaws, as opposed to subsribing to the Mac way of doing things. This aspect of the Mac setup does not realy fit in with the 'SAMSON ethic' as I see it. >Let me tell you the most important things about memory management, as I >see them: You seem to want an 'intelegent' system, able to de-alloacte pages whenever it thinks that perhaps they are not in use anymore. This can only cause troubles, and does not fit in with the current system that we are growing from. Next think you know, you will want 'Mac style' variable partitions! Now that would be horrid. Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 13:51:59 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:45:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970212101449.0092f170@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1054 Lines: 30 On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > >>So I am "everyone" now am I? And I haven't changed my mind; I'm not > >>contradicting that we need the better software, but we don't need them > >>YET. We CAN'T write a decent C compiler with the Z80B and its memory > >>structure. What "development tools" has "everyone" been saying we need? > >-- > > > >Only a poor workman blames his tools... > > Go on then - you port ZIP and UNZIP to the SAM using the source code on the > Unix groups. Modify it as much as you like. Then get it to work using SAM C > as your compiler. > > This challenge is one that I think you'll find most enlightening. Or alternatively Samsboss, YOU write the next C compiler on the Z80B (since you say you have some machine code experience). Tell me how you would write your 100K programs without having to split it into 32K chunks... If you have the m/c experience or skill, don't make such daft comments. If you don't have the experience or skill, then keep out of the argument, and leave it to the experts. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:04:43 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:59:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. In-Reply-To: <970212064642_42450979@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 339 Lines: 11 On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > So, will you please look at the SRAM board as that has the highest priority - > nothing else can get started until that it ready. I've tried to look at it, but the problem of the graphics format has prevented me looking at it. Is anyone willing to print it out and post it to me? Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:04:57 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:59:41 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702121359.AA01556@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS MAOS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1615 Lines: 41 > No... you misunderstand what I mean. MY numbers are allocated by the > programmer, COMET will not allocate B0 pages, but A0 pages as these are of > type 'Other Code'. > A program will not allocate arbitary page numbers! But the page numbers I > stated in the original post. What is the use? > > If the art program needs to allocate pages (assuming it is also a non-GUI > based program) then it will allocate its own A0 pages. It will not > de-allocate all A0 pages. It will record the pages it allocated and > de-allocate them when desired. What if your program terminates illigally and does not deallocate the pages? What happens to them? > Such as? > You WILL need a distiction between the different types of pages at roughly > the level I stated. Why? The only thing an arbitrary application needs to know is "is there any memory for me?"! > Unlike you you, I see the Mac system and see its many flaws, as opposed to > subsribing to the Mac way of doing things. This aspect of the Mac setup > does not realy fit in with the 'SAMSON ethic' as I see it. I see nothing but flaws, even more unstable than Windows as it is. Perhaps that's why Apple has droped the old MacOS and started a new one? > You seem to want an 'intelegent' system, able to de-alloacte pages > whenever it thinks that perhaps they are not in use anymore. This can only > cause troubles, and does not fit in with the current system that we are > growing from. Any OS should have a garbage collecting system in case of illigal termination of applications. The OS should NEVER crash, and it will if it can't tidy the memory. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:14:44 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <20308.199702121407@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS MAOS To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:06:40 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9702121359.AA01556@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Feb 12, 97 02:59:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 261 Lines: 9 > termination of applications. The OS should NEVER crash, and it will > if it can't tidy the memory. Tell that to Windows - several times now I've got it to shut down program manager and every thing else, while leaving me staring at a blank desktop...! Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:14:46 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:09:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. In-Reply-To: <15021.199702121321@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1077 Lines: 23 On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > a) Why does this have to be done within the SRAM? I thought the same trick > that's used to make the sam emulate the spectrum (basically telling the sam > its rom is in memory, if I've understood it properly) could be used to do > this Could be done, but would be difficult to test existing applications, as existing applications know about paging, and how to page in the ROM if required - ie they would page in the old one, not our development code. > b) Are you /really/ sure you've thought about the amount of work needed to > get them all to work together, without rewriting large chunks of code? > From the comments here, the ROM is optimised for space and speed, as > hopefully will be the others. This is going to make the job of getting them > to work together without a mass of bugs, incompatabilities etc. very hard. Will be tricky, but we will have the advantages that: a) The code works together, if separately, already. b) We should have more than the original 32K of ROM to play with. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:14:46 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199702121425.OAA06945@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS The Next Step To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:25:46 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1210 Lines: 29 > 1) Finish and agree design of SRAM card and get a first batch of boards > produced. > 4) Agree memory layout for the Z380 card so that work can be advanced on > that project. > Bob. We realy cannot do the 2st one without first seriously thinking about the 4th one, especialy in relation to the desired co-processing that is required. In an ideal yet achievable system, as far I can see, would have each memory chip in the new circuit on its own indepedent bus. Each of these busses (along with the old SAM bus) going into some fairly complicated switching arrangement designed to give the minumum gate delay. The output of this 'MMU' comes out as (say) 4 busses, one forming the Z80s memory map, one for the Z380, one for the 'card and perhaps one for a 'DMA' channel of sorts. The MMUs purpose would be to map the memory from various sources into the ouput channels without allowing any 2 output busses to be connected to the the same input bus. The memory allocated to any processor being changable via requests from any systems I/O lines, and causing interupts on the processor currently holding any requested pages (bus). Lets play 'spot the stupid idea suggested by a hardware novice'! Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:22:24 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:17:03 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702121417.AA01596@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS MAOS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 300 Lines: 11 > > termination of applications. The OS should NEVER crash, and it will > > if it can't tidy the memory. > > Tell that to Windows - several times now I've got it to shut down > program manager and every thing else, while leaving me staring at > a blank desktop...! Well, there you go... -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:22:24 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <21903.199702121418@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Next Step. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:18:35 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Tim Wells" at Feb 12, 97 02:09:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 798 Lines: 21 > Could be done, but would be difficult to test existing applications, as > existing applications know about paging, and how to page in the ROM if > required - ie they would page in the old one, not our development code. Ahh... yes, that could be a little on the tricky side :) Oh well, 'twas an idea. > Will be tricky, but we will have the advantages that: > a) The code works together, if separately, already. True... there goes the incompatabilities thing. > b) We should have more than the original 32K of ROM to play with. This will solve some of the problems, but I'm not sure it'll help that much with bugs, which I still think are going to be the main problem. But what the hell, I'm not writing any of it :) [ Before anyone starts, I would, but I don't know Z80 assembler... ] Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:31:30 1997 Subject: Re: SOS The Next Step To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:23:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199702121425.OAA06945@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Feb 12, 97 02:25:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <19970212142356Z49270-22961+407@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 912 Lines: 21 > Lets play 'spot the stupid idea suggested by a hardware novice'! > Numbly. No, let's play "you design it, you build it, you program it" I don't know why I bother with this mailing list. I really don't. Your memory manager idea -- fine, builds on the existing sam one. The existing SAM one isn't very good for any kind of serious work. Why not save memory, and instead of allocating program types for each block, have 4 blocks -- one for FLASH RAM, one for ROM, one for allocated memory, and one for empty memory spaces. Each one is a bitmap - ie 1 bit set per type present. Why do you need to specify if something belongs to the GUI in your system? You've argued against giving individual programs their own specifiers -- so why give the GUI its own one? Let me know your background -- what you've done on various things, any qualifications, so that I know better where you're coming from. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 14:31:30 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:26:34 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <15303001F55@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 324 Lines: 14 Hello, > And yes, sometime I despair about the level of education these days. > I don't get this last comment and would be delighted if you could clarify it for me. > Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 16:27:28 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199702121542.PAA07347@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS MAOS To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:42:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5967 Lines: 130 >> No... you misunderstand what I mean. MY numbers are allocated by the >> programmer, COMET will not allocate B0 pages, but A0 pages as these are >> of type 'Other Code'. >> A program will not allocate arbitary page numbers! But the page numbers >> I stated in the original post. > >What is the use? > Good question. A valid answer has already been given though... To implement the prioritizing of memory usage. >> If the art program needs to allocate pages (assuming it is also a >> non-GUI based program) then it will allocate its own A0 pages. It will >> not de-allocate all A0 pages. It will record the pages it allocated and >> de-allocate them when desired. > >What if your program terminates illigally and does not deallocate the >pages? What happens to them? > That depends on the type of program. If it is a REAL program, of type 'Other Code', then the pages are likely to be lost. But there again, such programs are unlikely to exit in such a mannor, and there will be very few such programs on the SAMSON, all that can, will exsist at the GUI level. There is also the issue of finding out if such a program has terminated illigally or not. How does BASIC (assuming it was launched from BASIC, the same is true if launched from the GUI etc.) Know? If control has been returned to BASIC how is it surposed to know if you are not about to jump back and call the program again? Does it have a timeout if not used for so long? This is silly, there is no real case in which an 'Other Code' program can be terminated illigally AND recognised as such. A particular GUI application program is closed illigally? The GUI can easily be written in such a way as this is not possible, the only proviso would be that programs that can ever be terminated must have at least one window (or icon or other representation) on the virtual screen at any one time. The program is only 'terminated' if this representaion is closed. It is the GUI itself that needs to know where each individual GUI application is in memory, putting such information in the table both results in duplication of information, and results in a finite number of different applications that can be opened (assuming an efficient table structure is used). If a GUI application can be exited illegaly then it is the GUI that needs to do the housekeeping. The advantages of the priority system are clear even at the GUI level. If an application is closed ('terminated' as you put it) and the memory is de-allocated, the whole program needs to be re-loaded if it is opened again. But with the priority system, the page could be marked as 'low-priority' so not lost until there is a demand and no unused alternatives, of course it is the creator, in this case the GUI that is informed to its loss (note the use of the word 'informed' as opposed to 'asked' in the case of 'low-priority' storage pages). The messy old mac simply gets out of this by not closing open applications unless you explicitly select the application, go to the menu bar and kill it. It is also forced into this situation because of the wastage their 'variable partitions' result in when lots of applications are made and killed. Even the solution results in the situation of running out of memory as you have to go to the effort of killing applications you are finished with. >> Such as? >> You WILL need a distiction between the different types of pages at >> roughly the level I stated. > > Why? The only thing an arbitrary application needs to know is > "is there any memory for me?"! Indeed, there is good cause to simply have one bit per page to say if a page is allocated or not, as has already been suggested on this list. But again, there is more chance that the answer will be yes if the prioritzing is used. >> Unlike you you, I see the Mac system and see its many flaws, as opposed >> to subsribing to the Mac way of doing things. This aspect of the Mac setup >> does not realy fit in with the 'SAMSON ethic' as I see it. > > I see nothing but flaws, even more unstable than Windows as it is. > Perhaps that's why Apple has droped the old MacOS and started a new one? *agreeing nod* But we must always remember that flaws come in two flavors, flaws of design and flaws of inplementation. The Mac is full of both. >> You seem to want an 'intelegent' system, able to de-alloacte pages >> whenever it thinks that perhaps they are not in use anymore. This can >> only cause troubles, and does not fit in with the current system that >> we are growing from. > > Any OS should have a garbage collecting system in case of illigal > termination of applications. The OS should NEVER crash, and it will > if it can't tidy the memory. > Indeed, but perhaps you are looking at the problem from a different level, assuming the only need for the MAOS is in the GUI level. A long time ago I pointed out that the GUI would need to keep track of the location, size and distribution of the memory used internally. The MAOS calls to allocate memory should be viewed as requests not as demands for actions. They can return a 'NO' error code! If this is the case it need never 'crash'. BASIC needs a garbage collecton sytem to tidy up the variables etc. The GUI may need a garbage collection system to ensure none of its applications are dead. The MAOS may need a garbarge collecton system to request the movement of its pages about if it needs to allocate a number of consecutive pages that would not otherwise fit. ~~~~~~~~~~~ > -Frode The actual representation is not that important, I only brought up the MAOS to suggest its existance, and that it should be clasified as an OS module. It is the ethic that should be upheld, my concept of a priority system is a sound one, I think this is the best way to do it. I will not go for the Mac system just because someone has managed to continally mis-interpret what I have been tring to say and argue against a percieved suggestion that is not my own. Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 16:27:28 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: sskardon@argonet.co.uk (Stewart Skardon) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 97 16:12:30 X-Mailer: VTi Internet Email reader 1.09 : aa Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 488 Lines: 18 >Only a poor workman blames his tools... > >Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com Only a sad git with-holds his Email name. Now shut up and stop making out that you are someone important just to satisfy your little lust for power, and let us get on with some important conversations. -- _ (_`tewart sskardon@argonet.co.uk ,_) kardon Crashed WWW Site http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/cind.html Stewart Skardon online http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 16:39:51 1997 Subject: Memory Management -- address handling To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:26:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <19970212162722Z49269-22961+424@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1051 Lines: 35 Hi everyone, Quick info-bite: Memory addresses for use in a *SAM* based memory allocation system should be represented as follows: 1-byte upper page value (used for external memory if a more than 4Mb solution is implemented - not difficult, even with existing hardware) 1-byte lower page value (used in the existing system, and for internal memory pages) 2-byte offset (usually, this should be between 32768 and 49151 - 49152 to 65535 should be allowed, but are not preferred. 0-32767 should be avoided where possible, so that memory operations can always be enacted on both external or internal memory with a minimum of fuss) Internal memory pages are designated as such by the upper page value being equal to 255. External pages have any value other than 255. (An alternative is for internal pages having a value of zero, and for external pages the upper page value should be decremented by 1 before use -- this allows for easier testing: e.g. LD A,(upperpage) OR A JR Z,internal ... handle externmal case ) Any views? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 18:30:09 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:23:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: 32768-49152... (was: Re: Memory Management -- address handling) In-Reply-To: <19970212162722Z49269-22961+424@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 800 Lines: 20 > 2-byte offset (usually, this should be between 32768 and 49151 - 49152 to > 65535 should be allowed, but are not preferred. 0-32767 should be avoided > where possible, so that memory operations can always be enacted on both > external or internal memory with a minimum of fuss) hi, nothing to do with your email really, but could someone explain to a thicky like me why they are always bewteen 32768 and 49151? And could my ignorance of this fact be why my last attempt to use a Jump Table entry kept crashing my Sam so wonderfully :) Ta! Tim ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 18:45:50 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:34:09 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970212133409_-1575646266@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3035 Lines: 66 In a message dated 12/02/97 16:56:47, you write: >Couple of questions... > >a) Why does this have to be done within the SRAM? I thought the same trick > that's used to make the sam emulate the spectrum (basically telling the >sam > its rom is in memory, if I've understood it properly) could be used to do > this Well, I would not say it was impossible, but the Spectrum only uses 64K and we need a lot more for SAM's bits - in addition to which we need the normal RAM to run our programs in. >b) Are you /really/ sure you've thought about the amount of work needed to > get them all to work together, without rewriting large chunks of code? > From the comments here, the ROM is optimised for space and speed, as > hopefully will be the others. This is going to make the job of getting >them > to work together without a mass of bugs, incompatabilities etc. very hard. > Oh I don't doubt that there will be problems, but look at it this way. If we star from scratch then it will take a long time before we have anything that is testable. The route I plan will allow us to experiment, try this and try that (some of which will not work I'm sure) but we start from a working system. Its the classic hacking, try a change, if it does not work then put it back and try something else. The intergration stage, trying to merge HDOS+MasterDos+other bit, may not be so hard once we get a feel for what Andy has done in the ROM. Many years ago, when I was working a support programmer, I took on the job a unlocking a compiler (DTPL if you are interested). The compiler had many features that were switched off (the company charging extra to switch them on for you) so, over a period of several weeks, I took test core-dumps at verious stages of execution and worked out how the compiler worked. Hay presto! A switched on compiler. Now I could have just looked through the code and worked out what was happening - but being able to do test runs, stopping execution a particular instructions and then looking at what had happened in memory, speeded up the process and saved weeks. This is the idea with SAM. We need to really learn how Andy did some things. Nev and I have spend many a late night /playing computers/ walking through the code - but to have it soft (and modifiable) would have made life so much easier. Once we know how the existing code works, I believe we have the talent to make it work different - the result may not be tidy, we may lose some speed, it may take up more memory, but in the end we will get something working. Then we take all the result and use that as the basis of either A) a complete rewrite in Z80, or B) a rewrite in Z380/A.N.Other. Its just that I feel we know the Z80 and that is why we need to do things first using the Z80. >> So, will you please look at the SRAM board as that has the highest priority >- >> nothing else can get started until that it ready. > >This is where I don't get to feel guilty, because I wouldn't know a bad >design from a good one... :) > >Paul Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 18:45:51 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:34:04 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970212133403_-1943326522@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2815 Lines: 101 In a message dated 12/02/97 16:31:17, you write: [cut] >> 1) Finish and agree design of SRAM card and get a first batch of boards >> produced. > >OK! Is there a higher level design? How will it operate? As far as I am aware, Nev has put the designs up on nvg, if there are any more details needed then I will try to get Nev to put something together for the list. > >> >> 2) Work to move ROM+Masterdos+HDOS into SRAM to work /AS IS/. > >That's why I ask. It might get tricky depending on the paging >controls. > >> >> 3) Work to intergrate ROM+Masterdos+HDOS within the SRAM to remove >> duplication and bugs. Also some work in testing new ideas while using the >> operating system as a framework. > >Yes, well...I can agree on it being the ideal way to go if the cost >is small, but is it? I think so. > >> >> 4) Agree memory layout for the Z380 card so that work can be advanced on >that >> project. > >Should be moved up. :) No. But it can go on in tandom, provided people understand that the SRAM need the higher priority. > >> >> 5) Agree screen layouts and I/O communication protocal for new graphics >> sub-system. > >Right. > >> >> Well there's lots more, but I guess that is enough for now. The fact that >one >> item is below another does not mean that we can't continue to talk about >it, >> it just that the above list is the order in which thing will need to be >> finished - hence the priority. > >One thing you should cosider is to merge MDOS and HDOS into one DOS. >It should be one DOS with 'plug-ins' for tape, disc, harddrive, CDROM, >vinyl, etc. Oh, quite right, that is the idea, first we port and work as-is, then we can start intergration and the removal of duplication. > >> >> Z80 source code for the ROM and MasterDOS exist. > >For anybody to use? Yes. > >> C source code for HDOS exists, as does the Z80 source that the compiler >> generates. > >What type of C? Nev has posted some details about his C development system in the past, but because I lost so much with the virus attack before christmas, I can't find it at the moment. > >> There may be a little work to do getting the code into, say, Comet - but we >> can look at that quite quickly. > >Shouldn't take an hour. :) > >> >> So, will you please look at the SRAM board as that has the highest priority >- >> nothing else can get started until that it ready. > >Is that the sram.zip or the sram2???.zip? If the latter, I'll see if I can >get it sized down... Don't know --- NEV!!! > >> >> Then, I would like some idea of who will be available to look at the >> programming side. I'm looking at it as a job that will split down so as >many >> as possible can take a stab at things - that will be the nice thing about >> having the ROM soft. > >If I have the time, I'll be glad to help. Many thanks. > > -Frode Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 18:45:51 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:34:06 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970212133405_-1776816442@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 408 Lines: 12 In a message dated 12/02/97 16:43:59, you write: >[ Before anyone starts, I would, but I don't know Z80 assembler... ] > >Paul No probs Paul, you can act a a tester if nothing else. You just get the latest changes, and sit there for a few days testing to make sure as much as possible still runs (and give the same results). Part of the battle is going to be writning the test progs for somethings. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 20:22:33 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <19638.199702122016@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Next Step. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:15:59 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970212133405_-1776816442@emout16.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Feb 12, 97 01:34:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 294 Lines: 8 > No probs Paul, you can act a a tester if nothing else. You just get the > latest changes, and sit there for a few days testing to make sure as much as If it happens during holidays, sure - but I don't have my Sam up at uni with me, unfortunately. (People laugh at it ... poor thing.) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 20:35:42 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <20225.199702122032@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SOS MAOS To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:32:51 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199702121542.PAA07347@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Feb 12, 97 03:42:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 744 Lines: 22 > This is silly, there is no real case in which an 'Other Code' program can > be terminated illigally AND recognised as such. I think he was trying to say "crashes", which /will/ happen. As for everything being at the GUI level - don't think so pal. Command line is a /lot/ faster, and so things that need speed will run at that level. (Assuming that it's a dual system, rather than one overlaying the other.) > The MAOS calls to allocate memory should be viewed as requests not as MAOS? > demands for actions. They can return a 'NO' error code! If this is the > case it need never 'crash'. Can. S'easy - pick a piece of memory, use it anyway whether you're allocated it or not. (This might be 80x86 real-mode practice only, though...) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 23:08:29 1997 Message-ID: <330247C1.41CB@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:44:18 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSboss's (mistaken) Identity References: <9702121232.AA00672@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1958 Lines: 70 Ian Collier wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:12:42 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > > >>ell, after a little digging, his/her initials are: > > > >>FB > > > >Now I wonder where he got that idea from :) > > > >WRONG. > > Well I bet he got that from your signature, but as I understand it that > merely stands for "fat bastard". > > > Usenet actually... just a skim search for samsboss. > > Good idea. > > I was amazed to discover that samsboss and Bob have both posted over 100 > articles to uk.singles this year and not a lot of articles elsewhere. > >From what I've read, they seem to concentrate on one liners and being > facetious. :-) **************** And not getting scorched (-8 > > However I have found out that samsboss's postcode appears to be BB8 6AB. > Anyone know that area? Where is BB8 anyway? ************** I Know I Know ;-) ************** > > imc > > PS I was also rather surprised to discover that a female member of this > computing lab is also rather active in uk.singles. Oh Ian it is soooooo nice to see that you ackserly _know_ a snuglie. Pass on my regards to Sharon (http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/users/sharon.curtis/) Why not come and join us (if you dare) I'm certain that Sharon will offer you no protection at all from the Minotaur and Kay only knows what the Ferret will say. ----------------------------------- For uk.singles FAQ email: infolist@pcserv.demon.co.uk with message ONLY of:- sendme singles end ----------------------------------- Pearl and Dean music from the cinema da da de da etc Buy you hard drive interface from S D Software 70 Rainhall Road Barnoldswick Lancs BB8 6AB -- FB. ------------------------------------------------------------- sometimes I am Nevilley@ndirect.co.uk sometimes I am samsboss@uk.pipeline.com it all depends on whose computer I am using but I am always the Fat Bastard of Barlik ---------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 12 23:08:29 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:03:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. In-Reply-To: <970212133409_-1575646266@emout18.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4885 Lines: 111 On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >Couple of questions... > > > >a) Why does this have to be done within the SRAM? I thought the same trick > > that's used to make the sam emulate the spectrum (basically telling the > >sam > > its rom is in memory, if I've understood it properly) could be used to do > > this > > Well, I would not say it was impossible, but the Spectrum only uses 64K and > we need a lot more for SAM's bits - in addition to which we need the normal > RAM to run our programs in. It's not just that, the 48K spectrum never paged its memory so it is easy to fool it into using a shadow Rom. With the Sam that wouldn't be so simple because the Z80 outputs commands directly to the hardware to say which bits of memory it needs. Which means that no software program would be able to alter that. > >b) Are you /really/ sure you've thought about the amount of work needed to > > get them all to work together, without rewriting large chunks of code? > > From the comments here, the ROM is optimised for space and speed, as > > hopefully will be the others. This is going to make the job of getting > >them > > to work together without a mass of bugs, incompatabilities etc. very > hard. > > > Oh I don't doubt that there will be problems, but look at it this way. If we > star from scratch then it will take a long time before we have anything that > is testable. Our survey said: Uh Uuhhh. The following paragraph may seem familiar, because I have said it before. Twice. I've said that before too. You might like to read it this time. If we start from scratch, we can write about half a K of vital sysadmin code, and be able to load applications. Meanwhile the coders can be writing their BASIC bit by bit; we _DO *!*NOT*!* NEED_ TO HAVE WRITTEN A LARGE AMOUNT OF SOFTWARE BEFORE THERE IS A $*SALEABLE*$ PRODUCT. > The route I plan will allow us to experiment, try this and try > that (some of which will not work I'm sure) but we start from a working > system. Its the classic hacking, try a change, if it does not work then put > it back and try something else. Our survey said: Uh Uuhhh. Because the current ROM expects to be paged into the 64K address space. Lots of outputs to hardware etc. And there are times when you just can't have it all in at once even now, like when writing to the screen for example. So there are A LOT of changes which will HAVE to be made before you have a system WHICH WORKS AT ALL. Only once that's sorted out can you start fiddling about with it. Not to mention all the sections, eg calculator routines (I think..) which get copied into a RAM buffer before they're run because they're compiled into the wrong addresses in the ROM... Yes this can all get sorted out on the SRAM, but it would be a NIGHTMARE I'm telling you. > The intergration stage, trying to merge HDOS+MasterDos+other bit, may not be > so hard once we get a feel for what Andy has done in the ROM. Will the Z80 be able to page the SRAM in sections? Because if not, we could be looking at a 64K ROM which never gets chance to access RAM for anything. On a Z380 there is no problem, because it can directly address 4 gigs, with no paging tricks or whatever, more RAM than most people have hard-disk space. So why are you so hesitant about adding the Z380? You may not personally have done the relavent investigation, but other people have (read Based on an Idea issue one, for example) and concluded that the Z380 is an approximately ideal chip. And have you tried to get hold of the manuals yet like you said you would? [LARGE irrelavence cut] > Once we know how the existing code works, I believe we have the talent to > make it work different - the result may not be tidy, we may lose some speed, > it may take up more memory, but in the end we will get something working. > Then we take all the result and use that as the basis of either A) a complete > rewrite in Z80, or B) a rewrite in Z380/A.N.Other. So you are saying we need to write everything twice. > Its just that I feel we know the Z80 and that is why we need to do things > first using the Z80. If we don't start using the Z380 then we'll never get to know it at all. And who are "we" anyway? Do you volunteer your services for this enviable task of hacking the ROM to bits? > >> So, will you please look at the SRAM board as that has the highest > priority - > >> nothing else can get started until that it ready. > > > >This is where I don't get to feel guilty, because I wouldn't know a bad > >design from a good one... :) There are several people on this list who would be counted as hardware experts. Nev is one. Andrew Chandler is probably one. Simon Cooke is one, even if he says otherwise. Ian might be one. And there are others. I have the grace not to count myself among that group; I am a programmer. What say you, Bob? Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 00:10:07 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:07:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Svga monitors Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 455 Lines: 9 Does anyone know if it is possible to allow a SAM (coupe) to run with a PC SVGA colour monitor? I have limited space at college, and can't afford the desk space for two computers, so my PC has to take precedence. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Fulton (D.A.Fulton@durham.ac.uk) Trevelyan College, University of Durham. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 09:20:34 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 04:17:13 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970213041712_1861947021@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 641 Lines: 21 In a message dated 12/02/97 17:47:52, you write: >Or alternatively Samsboss, YOU write the next C compiler on the Z80B >(since you say you have some machine code experience). Tell me how you >would write your 100K programs without having to split it into 32K >chunks... > >If you have the m/c experience or skill, don't make such daft comments. > >If you don't have the experience or skill, then keep out of the argument, >and leave it to the experts. > > Sytems to handle large, or even very large, blocks of data can be run without any problem. SAM Basic does it (ok with a few bugs, but the idea is there). So why not with C? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 09:20:34 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 04:17:19 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970213041718_1962606733@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: An Open Offer (was Re: A Future Problem.) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 522 Lines: 15 In a message dated 12/02/97 17:47:16, you write: >Okay ... as you seem to be "in" so well with Samsboss, can you please get him >to stop acting as though he's the only person here that knows anything, and >he's automatically right? Because that's the attitude that's been coming >across. He doesn't even seem willing to listen to other people, which >is the most irritating part It seems to me that the cap would fit equally well on to several peoples heads. I does seem that certain people just love to argue. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 09:20:34 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 04:17:21 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970213041720_2026768013@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1206 Lines: 41 In a message dated 12/02/97 15:59:40, you write: >> >>ell, after a little digging, his/her initials are: > >> >>FB > >> >Now I wonder where he got that idea from :) > >> >WRONG. > >Well I bet he got that from your signature, but as I understand it that >merely stands for "fat bastard". > >> Usenet actually... just a skim search for samsboss. > >Good idea. > >I was amazed to discover that samsboss and Bob have both posted over 100 >articles to uk.singles this year and not a lot of articles elsewhere. >From what I've read, they seem to concentrate on one liners and being >facetious. :-) > >However I have found out that samsboss's postcode appears to be BB8 6AB. >Anyone know that area? Where is BB8 anyway? > >imc > >PS I was also rather surprised to discover that a female member of this > computing lab is also rather active in uk.singles. > > Why were you surprised? Did you doubt he intelligence? (by the way folks, uk.singles is nothing like what you are thinking - its for spider hating, cat loving, chocolate eating,vodka drinking, intelligent people - like me... ) And no, BB8 is quite a few miles wide of the mark - can't explain in email cos you never know who may read it. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 10:33:38 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970213103550.008caae8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:35:50 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: 32768-49152... (was: Re: Memory Management -- address handling) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1072 Lines: 26 At 18:23 12/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> 2-byte offset (usually, this should be between 32768 and 49151 - 49152 to >> 65535 should be allowed, but are not preferred. 0-32767 should be avoided >> where possible, so that memory operations can always be enacted on both >> external or internal memory with a minimum of fuss) > >hi, nothing to do with your email really, but could someone explain to a >thicky like me why they are always bewteen 32768 and 49151? Well, basically because if you're paging stuff around and you're in ROM, or in the lower pages, it's easier to keep track of stuff... Drop off the end of a page? Test for bit 6 of your address register (usually HL). If it's set, read in the current page, increment, write it back out again. Reset bit 6, and you're *always* out of danger of dropping off the end of the memory space (65535). >And could my ignorance of this fact be why my last attempt to use a Jump >Table entry kept crashing my Sam so wonderfully :) I don't know... Could be. Might not be. Depends what you're doing. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 10:33:38 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970213103552.00928b3c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:35:52 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 695 Lines: 16 At 13:34 12/02/97 -0500, you wrote: >The intergration stage, trying to merge HDOS+MasterDos+other bit, may not be >so hard once we get a feel for what Andy has done in the ROM. That's the hard bit... he's used so many different, varied and absolutely wonderful tricks (he must be a hardware designer at heart - he's got De Morgan's rules and logic minimisation down pat) that it's hard to see how some stuff works -- even with the source code. Mind you, I've dissected the keyboard routines and the drawing routines... the hard part is the BASIC interpreter and working out how to patch things into it. Anyone want to start working on a completely annotated version of the ROM source? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 10:43:04 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970213104608.0093d154@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:46:08 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 330 Lines: 10 At 04:17 13/02/97 -0500, you wrote: >Sytems to handle large, or even very large, blocks of data can be run without >any problem. SAM Basic does it (ok with a few bugs, but the idea is there). >So why not with C? Namely because SAM C wasn't written with it in mind -- it was a slightly updated port of Small C from CP/M. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 11:30:14 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:23:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. In-Reply-To: <970213041712_1861947021@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2225 Lines: 49 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/02/97 17:47:52, you write: > > >Or alternatively Samsboss, YOU write the next C compiler on the Z80B > >(since you say you have some machine code experience). Tell me how you > >would write your 100K programs without having to split it into 32K > >chunks... > > > Sytems to handle large, or even very large, blocks of data can be run without > any problem. SAM Basic does it (ok with a few bugs, but the idea is there). > So why not with C? > Because the Basic is stored in ROM (obviously) and the paging can be arranged such that the program is ALWAYS available, there in section A. In general RAM based programs, and this includes a compiled C program, the memory can be split into two sections only. Lets say your program in running in low memory (for the sake of argument. It could be high memory but it really doesn't matter). Now let's say you want to shift 32K from one page to another. You can't copy it directly, you either have to use a buffer, or transfer it byte by byte. A buffer would waste memory in the middle of your code, and a byte-by-byte transfer, switching pages each time, would be terribly terribly slow. Another problem will occur if the program itself is larger than 32K. Different procedures will need to be in different pages. Now what you could do, to call a procedure in another page, is to switch yourself into high memory, page in the next routine into low memory, and call it from there. But 1) You have lost your stack, so you cannot pass parameters from one procedure to the next, and 2) you have lost whatever routines you had used for interrupts. It IS possible to get round these problems (though I'd like to see Samsboss try it), but my point is that using a Z380 there ARE NO problems like this. And my other point, is that if the Z380 board is designed and prototyped, programmers can start writing software for it, using the Sam's current setup, with no extra hassles at all. The SRAM board, even if it is designed and built first, MUST have the Z380 in mind, so we can connect one easily and cheaply. If this is not so then the current design does not conform to the initial specifications. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 11:30:14 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:25:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: An Open Offer In-Reply-To: <970213041718_1962606733@emout20.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 342 Lines: 15 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >across. He doesn't even seem willing to listen to other people, which > >is the most irritating part > > It seems to me that the cap would fit equally well on to several peoples > heads. > > I does seem that certain people just love to argue. > > Bob. Do you know how you sound? Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 11:34:04 1997 Message-Id: <199702131130.MAA26253@dxmint.cern.ch> From: Allan Skillman Subject: ROM changes, SRAM and compilers To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 12:30:38 MET Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1806 Lines: 31 Just a few thoughts from someone who has spent some time getting the SAMs existing ROMS to work on an 'alien' system (ie the emulator not a real SAM). In order for the ROMS to work properly, the memory in sections A and D MUST be readonly. This is the main reason why the existing ram cannot be used to alter the OS. In the ROM code there are all sorts of clever tricks which reduce the size of the OS, but cause wierd side effects, like memory writes into ROM addresses. There is one particular one in ROM1, where a loop jumps back to a point half way though an instruction (running a different instruction). Developement in C is out of the question, unless Bob is going to generously get a multiple user licence for the version of Hitech C which Nev uses. Apart from the CP/M version which is free, but not fully ANSI, and pretty slow on PRODOS, this is the ONLY C compiler which produces z80 assembly - I know I've looked. It might be possible to write a z380 backend for one of the free compilers - gcc, lcc, bcc etc etc as this chip has a sensible memory arrangement, but a z80 backend is pretty unlikely. Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Now available! SimCoupe, the one and only SAM Coupe emulator | | *** http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ajs/simcoupe/simcoupe_distr.html *** | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | HEPP Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | University College London | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | Email : ajs@hep.ucl.ac.uk | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 11:51:21 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:50:20 GMT Subject: (Fwd) Please can you pass this on? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <2445E015A67@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 745 Lines: 23 Dave Ledbury asked me to pass this on to you (and no I didn't add in the P.S. at the end *grins*) > Just a quick announcement: I'm currently in the process of moving, > so for the immediate future I'm not going to pick up any mail for a few > days. If anything urgent comes up, please phone Malcolm on > 0161 797 0651. > > Please note, if anyone has my personal address (21 ????????, Stockport) > then it is no longer valid. Please forward anything via Malcolm. > > See you soon! > > David L > > PS SAM World sounds like a good mag, and I'll buy one - at least to try it out! Hurrah! Sales figures of 1! Gone backrupt yet Bob? :) > > PPS And if you don't want to try Format at the regular price, why not try BLITZ > at the regular price!!! From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 11:51:29 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:44:41 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702131144.AA04889@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: SimCoupe at nvg X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 304 Lines: 9 SimCoupe v 0.3 has been placed int the ./simcoupe directory. Currently, there are, in addition to the source form, also a precompiled version for solaris 2.4. Now a plea. Please upload more stuff. The Sam directory has a quite high download rate, and it can get better. PLEASE upload anything! -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 12:07:12 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. References: <200300317ED@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Lee Willis Date: 13 Feb 1997 11:59:56 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Gavin Smith"'s message of Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:39:54 GMT Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1084 Lines: 29 "Gavin Smith" writes: > > > My problem is that I have the advantage of knowing who samsboss is. > > This has been stated before and as I indicated at the time I have been > > requested not to reveal their identity so PLEASE don't ask me. After all > > you wouldn't like it if I broke a confidence of yours. I am also in the > > The thing is Nev, if someone so bluntly refuses to give his name, > (especially among such a small group of people as this list, all of > whom I like to call my friends), then people can only assume its for one of > the following three reasons - > 1. He has something to hide from his past > 2. He is currently involved in something that the email list wouldn't approve of > 3. He is hiding behind the name of "Samsboss" because he is already on the > list under another name (!) perhaps so that he can say contraversial things, > without ruining his good (real) name. > You forgot one ... 4) He's a **** ... -- Lee. X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. From imc Thu Feb 13 12:14:45 1997 Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:14:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970213041720_2026768013@emout01.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Feb 13, 97 04:17:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1068 Lines: 26 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 04:17:21 -0500 (EST), BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > >PS I was also rather surprised to discover that a female member of this > > computing lab is also rather active in uk.singles. > Why were you surprised? Mainly because I thought she was happily attached. My information must be a couple of years out of date. Anyway, this has nothing to do with you... Or me either, for that matter... > (by the way folks, uk.singles is nothing like what you are thinking - its for > spider hating, cat loving, chocolate eating,vodka drinking, intelligent > people - like me... ) You forgot the malteser iced cream. > And no, BB8 is quite a few miles wide of the mark - can't explain in email > cos you never know who may read it. So if it isn't Nev, it's someone whom Nev trusts enough to lend him his account ("nevilley@ndirect.co.uk" looked mighty suspicious but I didn't realise it was Nev's real address until I checked my sam-users mail). And it's someone who claims Nev's postcode is his own - perhaps he is an employee of S D Software then? imc From imc Thu Feb 13 12:16:56 1997 Subject: Re: SAMSboss's (mistaken) Identity To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:16:56 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <330247C1.41CB@ndirect.co.uk> from "Neville Young" at Feb 12, 97 10:44:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 318 Lines: 11 On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:44:18 +0000, Neville Young said: > Why not come and join us (if you dare) Because I'm having enough trouble keeping up with my existing newsgroups (and that doesn't even include uk.misc). > I'm certain that Sharon will offer you no protection at all I can look after myself thank you. imc From imc Thu Feb 13 12:22:23 1997 Subject: Re: The Next Step. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:22:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970213103552.00928b3c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 13, 97 10:35:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 492 Lines: 16 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:35:52 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > Anyone want to start working on a completely annotated version of the ROM > source? I started this in 1991. Then I ran out of time so it went into sleep mode, with only a rather brief wake-up in 1995 when I transferred it from my +3 to my Unix account together with a copy of the official Sam ROM source. The current status is: ROM 0: 1572 lines of 9660 contain comments ROM 1: 1033 lines of 8963 contain comments. Not good. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 12:27:55 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970213122802.0092ef04@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:28:02 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Memory Allocation - part 1 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1897 Lines: 55 Right... now that I've had no major objections from the mailing list on the memory address structure, here goes with the next part: Memory block structure: Header: O/S Specific data (2 bytes -- bits 0-2 of the least-significant byte is reserved for prioritisation of memory -- 7 being high priority, 0 being low). If this field is completely zero, this block is treated as "free", or unallocated. Size of block (4 bytes ? or 3 bytes?) -- all space is allocated as contiguous blocks, even though it would be "simple" not to do this for external memory. Size of the block *includes* the header. Allocation ID (2 bytes -- identifies the allocator) Next block address (4 bytes - as per memory structure info already emailed). Address of the next memory block of this type - i.e. free, or allocated. 4 bytes -- reserved. Could be used to create a doubly linked list, to give access to the previous block in the list. Actually, I'd recommend this, but I'll leave it to the mailing list to decide if it's necessary. Header size: 16 bytes. Memory must be allocated in units of the header size. The header size must be a factor of 16384. (ie. an integer number of headers must fit in a 16K page). ---- Next and previous block addresses: These should *ALWAYS* point to an address between 32768 and 49151. Therefore if the entire field is *ZERO*, then the end of the chain has been reached. (At this point, on an allocation, another block of memory could be grabbed by the system). Internal housekeeping: Records must be kept of: 1st allocated memory block in the chain. 1st free block in the chain. Last allocated memory block in the chain (used for finding free blocks). Last allocated free block in the chain. This system is flexible enough in that if *absolutely* necessary, it's possible to traverse the memory list manually, rather than bouncing around the list pointers. Ideas? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 12:27:57 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:23:36 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702131223.AA05544@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SOS MAOS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 6725 Lines: 153 > >> No... you misunderstand what I mean. MY numbers are allocated by the > >> programmer, COMET will not allocate B0 pages, but A0 pages as these are > >> of type 'Other Code'. > >> A program will not allocate arbitary page numbers! But the page numbers > >> I stated in the original post. > > > >What is the use? > > > Good question. > A valid answer has already been given though... > To implement the prioritizing of memory usage. I might be thick about this, but why do you want to do this? Are you saying that if you start a new application and this one finds out that there is not enough memory it can (or ask the OS to) toss out an application with lower priority? > >What if your program terminates illigally and does not deallocate the > >pages? What happens to them? > > > That depends on the type of program. It does? Why? > If it is a REAL program, of type 'Other Code', then the pages are likely > to be lost. But there again, such programs are unlikely to exit in such a > mannor, and there will be very few such programs on the SAMSON, all that > can, will exsist at the GUI level. If there is a chance, it will always surface! > There is also the issue of finding out if such a program has terminated > illigally or not. How does BASIC (assuming it was launched from BASIC, the > same is true if launched from the GUI etc.) Know? If control has been > returned to BASIC how is it surposed to know if you are not about to jump > back and call the program again? Does it have a timeout if not used for > so long? A propper OS has various mechanisms for trapping 'lost' processes (I'm talking about crashed applications or applications written which does not tidy properly itself), and with the Z380, hardware 'tools' for doing so (I asume). One of them is a timeout of sort. > This is silly, there is no real case in which an 'Other Code' program can > be terminated illigally AND recognised as such. Why not? There are millions OS' which implements this already. > A particular GUI application program is closed illigally? The GUI can > easily be written in such a way as this is not possible, the only proviso > would be that programs that can ever be terminated must have at least one > window (or icon or other representation) on the virtual screen at any one > time. The program is only 'terminated' if this representaion is closed. There is no difference between a GUI application and any other application. It should not be for the OS anyway. Any application can easily be written with the intent to use all available memory and forget about it in such an enviroment. > It is the GUI itself that needs to know where each individual > GUI application is in memory, putting such information in the table > both results in duplication of information, and results in a finite number > of different applications that can be opened (assuming an efficient table > structure is used). > If a GUI application can be exited illegaly then it is the GUI that needs > to do the housekeeping. Again, the GUI application belongs to the superset of applications. > > > The advantages of the priority system are clear even at the GUI level. If > an application is closed ('terminated' as you put it) and the memory is > de-allocated, the whole program needs to be re-loaded if it is opened > again. But with the priority system, the page could be marked as > 'low-priority' so not lost until there is a demand and no unused > alternatives, of course it is the creator, in this case the GUI that is > informed to its loss (note the use of the word 'informed' as opposed to > 'asked' in the case of 'low-priority' storage pages). The idea is good, but it can be implemented without the application knowing anything about the memory structure and allocation. > The messy old mac simply gets out of this by not closing open applications > unless you explicitly select the application, go to the menu bar and kill > it. It is also forced into this situation because of the wastage their > 'variable partitions' result in when lots of applications are made and > killed. Even the solution results in the situation of running out of > memory as you have to go to the effort of killing applications you are > finished with. Hmm...are you talking about memory fragmentation? > > Why? The only thing an arbitrary application needs to know is > > "is there any memory for me?"! > > Indeed, there is good cause to simply have one bit per page to say if a > page is allocated or not, as has already been suggested on this list. > But again, there is more chance that the answer will be yes if the > prioritzing is used. I don't care if it is a bit, nibble, byte or a whole page as long as it is completely transparent for the application. > *agreeing nod* > But we must always remember that flaws come in two flavors, flaws of > design and flaws of inplementation. The Mac is full of both. They usually go hand in hand. Though, flaws of implementation is prone to happen everywhere, and that's why the OS should deal with it, not the application. > > Any OS should have a garbage collecting system in case of illigal > > termination of applications. The OS should NEVER crash, and it will > > if it can't tidy the memory. > > > Indeed, but perhaps you are looking at the problem from a different > level, assuming the only need for the MAOS is in the GUI level. > A long time ago I pointed out that the GUI would need to keep track of the > location, size and distribution of the memory used internally. > > The MAOS calls to allocate memory should be viewed as requests not as > demands for actions. They can return a 'NO' error code! If this is the > case it need never 'crash'. > > BASIC needs a garbage collecton sytem to tidy up the variables etc. > The GUI may need a garbage collection system to ensure none of its > applications are dead. > The MAOS may need a garbarge collecton system to request the movement > of its pages about if it needs to allocate a number of consecutive pages > that would not otherwise fit. ~~~~~~~~~~~ I think we agree on this, but the whole thing should be below the GUI too. > > > -Frode > > The actual representation is not that important, I only brought up the > MAOS to suggest its existance, and that it should be clasified as an OS > module. > It is the ethic that should be upheld, my concept of a priority > system is a sound one, I think this is the best way to do it. But I fail to see what you mean by a 'priority system'. > I will not go for the Mac system just because someone has managed to > continally mis-interpret what I have been tring to say and argue against > a percieved suggestion that is not my own. Agreed. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 12:36:11 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970213123957.0092e928@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:39:57 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 621 Lines: 22 At 12:22 13/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:35:52 +0000, Simon Cooke said: >> Anyone want to start working on a completely annotated version of the ROM >> source? > >I started this in 1991. Then I ran out of time so it went into sleep mode, >with only a rather brief wake-up in 1995 when I transferred it from my +3 to >my Unix account together with a copy of the official Sam ROM source. > >The current status is: > >ROM 0: 1572 lines of 9660 contain comments >ROM 1: 1033 lines of 8963 contain comments. > >Not good. Any chance of a copy? I could give you a hand if you like... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 12:54:06 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: An Open Offer (was Re: A Future Problem.) References: <970213041718_1962606733@emout20.mail.aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Lee Willis Date: 13 Feb 1997 12:50:16 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR@aol.com's message of Thu, 13 Feb 1997 04:17:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1025 Lines: 33 BrenchleyR@aol.com writes: > Cookie wrote ... > > >Okay ... as you seem to be "in" so well with Samsboss, can you please get > him > >to stop acting as though he's the only person here that knows anything, and > >he's automatically right? Because that's the attitude that's been coming > >across. He doesn't even seem willing to listen to other people, which > >is the most irritating part > > It seems to me that the cap would fit equally well on to several peoples > heads. > > Yes, but at least most of us (Well, me at least, and I've seen other people do the same!), will accept that whether we're right or wrong the majority of opinion is against us and will go with the flow, democratically, whereas you and pratface just seem to read everything and then just carrt on, ignoring the fact that everyone else disagrees ... > I does seem that certain people just love to argue. > Only when provoked .. -- Lee. X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 13:18:51 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <13230.199702131309@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: An Open Offer (was Re: A Future Problem.) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:09:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970213041718_1962606733@emout20.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Feb 13, 97 04:17:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 100 Lines: 3 > It seems to me that the cap would fit equally well on to several peoples Taken to private email. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 13:19:00 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:21:02 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The Next Step. In-reply-to: <19638.199702122016@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> References: <970212133405_-1776816442@emout16.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Feb 12, 97 01:34:06 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 566 Lines: 14 > > No probs Paul, you can act a a tester if nothing else. You just get the > > latest changes, and sit there for a few days testing to make sure as much as > > If it happens during holidays, sure - but I don't have my Sam up at uni > with me, unfortunately. (People laugh at it ... poor thing.) You don't have your SAM with you?? A CRIME! I've got mine.. :) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now Quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers!" - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 13:25:23 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <14455.199702131318@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Next Step. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:18:20 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 12, 97 11:03:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1609 Lines: 30 > simple because the Z80 outputs commands directly to the hardware to say > which bits of memory it needs. Which means that no software program would Not possible to implement something like SSD (Servile Software Decoder) then? That runs on the PC, for those who haven't seen it, and interprets commands before it runs them - this lets it prevent certain things (eg memory allocation, interrupt hooking). Obviously something for this would actually need to provide the memory, but it could do it in a controlled way that wouldn't interfere. [Damn. Snipped the comment I wanted to reply to.] The comment was "classic hacking" - do we really want a system which was created like this? This is how Microsoft work, and you've seen the result - take Word 6! About 10% of the code in there isn't needed, but it would be too hard to remove it so it stays... > There are several people on this list who would be counted as hardware > experts. Nev is one. Andrew Chandler is probably one. Simon Cooke is one, > even if he says otherwise. Ian might be one. And there are others. Nev is definitely one; Edwin Blink? Where'd he go? Haven't heard anything from Andrew C for a while either. Cookie is willing but unable (busy) I think at the moment, although you might be able to persuade Martin Rookyard. Apart from that, I can't really think of any. I know there are some more here, but the names escape me... :) > I have the grace not to count myself among that group; I am a programmer. Ditto. Weird and (somtimes) wonderful things with code I can do, sometimes even on purpose, but hardware is not my scene... From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 13:25:23 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <14833.199702131320@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Next Step. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:20:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "James R Curry" at Feb 13, 97 01:21:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 278 Lines: 10 > You don't have your SAM with you?? A CRIME! I've got mine.. :) Yes, but you don't get people saying "Why do you bother with that? That's the glorified Spectrum, isn't it?" All this while they stand behind you and read your email. (Before I kill him, at any rate.) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 13:52:54 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:43:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave Handley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 323 Lines: 9 > > If it happens during holidays, sure - but I don't have my Sam up at uni > > with me, unfortunately. (People laugh at it ... poor thing.) > > You don't have your SAM with you?? A CRIME! I've got mine.. :) I've got mine too. Its still in the box though is great for resting my feet on when using the PC... :) Dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 13:52:54 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:47:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Sams@Uni (Was: Re: The Next Step.) In-Reply-To: <14833.199702131320@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 949 Lines: 21 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > You don't have your SAM with you?? A CRIME! I've got mine.. :) > Yes, but you don't get people saying "Why do you bother with that? > That's the glorified Spectrum, isn't it?" All this while they stand > behind you and read your email. Hmm, interesting, I decided to take my sam to uni with me, I got a couple of the 'a what?' type comments, but I managed to get an Arc owner activally interested in it for a bit (EGGBuM), and very few people I've ever talked with about it have considered it a glorified speccy. Then agian, my one mate did complain that he could tell when I was using my Sam because his radio reception went down the pan..... ;) ....@/ .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 14:02:48 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Lee Willis Date: 13 Feb 1997 13:58:00 +0000 In-Reply-To: Dave Handley's message of Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:43:03 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 715 Lines: 24 Dave Handley writes: > > > > If it happens during holidays, sure - but I don't have my Sam up at uni > > > with me, unfortunately. (People laugh at it ... poor thing.) > > > > You don't have your SAM with you?? A CRIME! I've got mine.. :) > > I've got mine too. Its still in the box though is great for resting my > feet on when using the PC... :) > Hmm, a $200 foot rest, I can't really see _that_ one catching on .... Anyone else got bizarre uses for their SAM. Personally I stick mine sideways in the fridge and preted I've got a _really_ big piece of cheese. -- Lee. X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:05:57 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:39:10 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702131439.AA05878@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe at nvg X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 9 > SimCoupe v 0.3 has been placed int the ./simcoupe directory. > Currently, there are, in addition to the source form, also a > precompiled version for solaris 2.4. Who said things don't happen fast here? v 0.4.1 has now been uploaded in the same forms as above. How about linux/aix/hpux/ultrix/etc. binaries anyone? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:05:57 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:39:22 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970213093921_2093886664@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 475 Lines: 15 In a message dated 12/02/97 20:52:50, you write: >> No probs Paul, you can act a a tester if nothing else. You just get the >> latest changes, and sit there for a few days testing to make sure as much >as > >If it happens during holidays, sure - but I don't have my Sam up at uni >with me, unfortunately. (People laugh at it ... poor thing.) > >Paul Shame on them, don't you tell them what a good machine it is? Still, I'm sure you will be able to help in some way. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:05:57 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:39:31 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970213093930_-1810270136@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5122 Lines: 128 In a message dated 12/02/97 23:42:34, Andrew Collier wrote: >On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > [cut] >> >> Well, I would not say it was impossible, but the Spectrum only uses 64K and >> we need a lot more for SAM's bits - in addition to which we need the normal >> RAM to run our programs in. > >It's not just that, the 48K spectrum never paged its memory so it is easy >to fool it into using a shadow Rom. With the Sam that wouldn't be so >simple because the Z80 outputs commands directly to the hardware to say >which bits of memory it needs. Which means that no software program would >be able to alter that. > [cut] >> Oh I don't doubt that there will be problems, but look at it this way. If >we >> star from scratch then it will take a long time before we have anything >that >> is testable. > >Our survey said: Uh Uuhhh. Pardon? > >The following paragraph may seem familiar, because I have said it before. >Twice. I've said that before too. You might like to read it this time. > >If we start from scratch, we can write about half a K of vital sysadmin >code, and be able to load applications. Meanwhile the coders can be >writing their BASIC bit by bit; we _DO *!*NOT*!* NEED_ TO HAVE WRITTEN A >LARGE AMOUNT OF SOFTWARE BEFORE THERE IS A $*SALEABLE*$ PRODUCT. The problem is I don't think we have either the time or the expertise available to conside a complete rewrite for scratch. Having evaluated that line of approach it has been abandoned. > >> The route I plan will allow us to experiment, try this and try >> that (some of which will not work I'm sure) but we start from a working >> system. Its the classic hacking, try a change, if it does not work then put >> it back and try something else. > >Our survey said: Uh Uuhhh. Pardon??? > >Because the current ROM expects to be paged into the 64K address space. >Lots of outputs to hardware etc. And there are times when you just can't >have it all in at once even now, like when writing to the screen for >example. So there are A LOT of changes which will HAVE to be made before >you have a system WHICH WORKS AT ALL. Only once that's sorted out can you >start fiddling about with it. > >Not to mention all the sections, eg calculator routines (I think..) which >get copied into a RAM buffer before they're run because they're compiled >into the wrong addresses in the ROM... Yes this can all get sorted out on >the SRAM, but it would be a NIGHTMARE I'm telling you. > >> The intergration stage, trying to merge HDOS+MasterDos+other bit, may not >be >> so hard once we get a feel for what Andy has done in the ROM. > >Will the Z80 be able to page the SRAM in sections? Because if not, we >could be looking at a 64K ROM which never gets chance to access RAM for >anything. Yes, 16k pages just like the real rom. > >On a Z380 there is no problem, because it can directly address 4 gigs, >with no paging tricks or whatever, more RAM than most people have >hard-disk space. So why are you so hesitant about adding the Z380? You may >not personally have done the relavent investigation, but other people have >(read Based on an Idea issue one, for example) and concluded that the Z380 >is an approximately ideal chip. And have you tried to get hold of the >manuals yet like you said you would? I do have copies of the Z380 manuals, and I currently trying to agree a price with Zilog to order 25 more copies. However, this is not the point. The first step has to be the SRAM because without that it is going to be very difficult to develop the code to drive the Z380. > >[LARGE irrelavence cut] > >> Once we know how the existing code works, I believe we have the talent to >> make it work different - the result may not be tidy, we may lose some >speed, >> it may take up more memory, but in the end we will get something working. >> Then we take all the result and use that as the basis of either A) a >complete >> rewrite in Z80, or B) a rewrite in Z380/A.N.Other. > >So you are saying we need to write everything twice. In some parts, yes. But what we get is a usable operating system for the Z80 based machine in the process. If we go direct into the Z380 route, and then find we can't do it, we have lost everything. The chosen way will give us something that is worth having at each step forward. > >> Its just that I feel we know the Z80 and that is why we need to do things >> first using the Z80. > >If we don't start using the Z380 then we'll never get to know it at all. >And who are "we" anyway? Do you volunteer your services for this enviable >task of hacking the ROM to bits? Yep, it is something I am really looking forward to. > >> >> So, will you please look at the SRAM board as that has the highest >> priority - >> >> nothing else can get started until that it ready. >> > >There are several people on this list who would be counted as hardware >experts. Nev is one. Andrew Chandler is probably one. Simon Cooke is one, >even if he says otherwise. Ian might be one. And there are others. > >I have the grace not to count myself among that group; I am a programmer. > >What say you, Bob? > > >Andrew Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:05:57 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:51:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@cantor.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Memory Allocation - part 1 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970213122802.0092ef04@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1104 Lines: 30 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > Right... now that I've had no major objections from the mailing list on the > memory address structure, here goes with the next part: > > Memory block structure: I take it that it's based for the present SAM and not the Z380/SRAM addon.. > > Header: [snip to save space] > Allocation ID (2 bytes -- identifies the allocator) Is this absolutely necessary? Surely other programs wouldn't care who has allocate the block... Or perhaps... Hold on... Lets say we add some sort of multitasking here. Does that mean my program will have to check that it owns the block of memory every time it uses it incase it has been reallocated to a higher priority program? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:05:58 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:54:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@cantor.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: ROM changes, SRAM and compilers In-Reply-To: <199702131130.MAA26253@dxmint.cern.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 700 Lines: 15 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Allan Skillman wrote: > Apart from the CP/M version which is free, but not fully ANSI, and > pretty slow on PRODOS, this is the ONLY C compiler which produces > z80 assembly - I know I've looked. It might be possible to write a You got CP/M Hitech C running in Pro-DOS???? How??? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:05:58 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970213150827.00929770@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:08:27 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Memory Allocation - part 1 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 841 Lines: 22 At 14:51 13/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >> Memory block structure: >I take it that it's based for the present SAM and not the Z380/SRAM addon.. Yep. >> Allocation ID (2 bytes -- identifies the allocator) > >Is this absolutely necessary? Surely other programs wouldn't care who has >allocate the block... Or perhaps... >Hold on... Lets say we add some sort of multitasking here. Does that mean >my program will have to check that it owns the block of memory every time >it uses it incase it has been reallocated to a higher priority program? Nah, you don't have to check -- it's mainly for debugging purposes, but also if we *do* implement multitasking, it lets us clean up if a program dies. Also protects against crappy programmers, who allocate memory but don't deallocate it (or file buffers, for example) when they shut down. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:14:05 1997 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970213151715.00923900@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:17:15 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: ROM changes, SRAM and compilers Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 470 Lines: 17 At 14:54 13/02/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Allan Skillman wrote: > >> Apart from the CP/M version which is free, but not fully ANSI, and >> pretty slow on PRODOS, this is the ONLY C compiler which produces >> z80 assembly - I know I've looked. It might be possible to write a > >You got CP/M Hitech C running in Pro-DOS???? How??? 'taint difficult you know... I think I've had it running myself... Can't quite remember though... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:51:27 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:49:06 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Delivery failure notification In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 988 Lines: 30 > > You don't have your SAM with you?? A CRIME! I've got mine.. :) > > Yes, but you don't get people saying "Why do you bother with that? > That's the glorified Spectrum, isn't it?" All this while they stand > > behind you and read your email. > > (Before I kill him, at any rate.) > Er.. I do get people saying "Why do you bother with that?". Although no-one reads my email.. Far more annoying right now is that the sun has just come level with the window, is straight in my eyes, reflecting off the screen, and I can hardly see a word that I'm typing... ARGGHH! -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now Quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers!" - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now Quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers!" - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:51:27 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:50:01 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Delivery failure notification In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 594 Lines: 19 > From: Mr P R Walker Coo.. You're at Warwick. I'm near Warwick very frequently.. And my train home stops in Leamington at the weekend.. Spooky. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now Quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers!" - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now Quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers!" - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 15:51:27 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:53:30 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Erk... Seem to have some mail problems.. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 694 Lines: 21 > I do have copies of the Z380 manuals, and I currently trying to agree a price > with Zilog to order 25 more copies. Oooo.. I wouldn't mind getting hold of a Z380 manual sometime.. Erm.. Some of my messages have been sent RE:Delivery failure notification. Erm. I seem to have some mail problems. Things were getting bounced at me. I used reply on the bounced mail, put in the list address and edited out the error bit of the message, but forgot to change the subject line. OOpps. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now Quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers!" - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 16:06:24 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:03:47 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The Next Step. References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 668 Lines: 17 > > If it happens during holidays, sure - but I don't have my Sam up at uni > > with me, unfortunately. (People laugh at it ... poor thing.) > > You don't have your SAM with you?? A CRIME! I've got mine.. :) I've got mine too. Its still in the box though is great for resting my feet on when using the PC... :) Oooh, pure evil. Nooooooo... The SAM shouldn't be used in this manner. Although I must admit, the power pack is an excellent foot warmer. :) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now Quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers!" - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 16:06:27 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:59:50 GMT+0 Subject: Re: SimCoupe at nvg X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <16C8A85102D@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 489 Lines: 16 > SimCoupe v 0.3 has been placed int the ./simcoupe directory. > Currently, there are, in addition to the source form, also a > precompiled version for solaris 2.4. > > Now a plea. Please upload more stuff. The Sam directory has > a quite high download rate, and it can get better. PLEASE > upload anything! Erm...(thick Johnna strikes again)...how? > > -Frode > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 16:06:40 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:03:23 GMT+0 Subject: Re: The Next Step. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <16C9F132261@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 547 Lines: 18 > > > You don't have your SAM with you?? A CRIME! I've got mine.. :) > > Yes, but you don't get people saying "Why do you bother with that? > That's the glorified Spectrum, isn't it?" All this while they stand > behind you and read your email. That sounds Soooo familiar ...("How come you've got 56 mails...what the hell is a SAM coupe...are you some kind of freak?) > > (Before I kill him, at any rate.) > > Paul > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 16:12:41 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:04:57 GMT+0 Subject: Re: The Next Step. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <16CB4414C96@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 338 Lines: 13 > Dave Handley writes: > Anyone else got bizarre uses for their SAM. > Yes, I...wait for it...use it for playing GAMES on. Bizzare! Witty without having to be anonymous :) > -- > Lee. Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "Great King Rat died today." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 16:44:46 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:41:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. In-Reply-To: <14455.199702131318@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 727 Lines: 17 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > simple because the Z80 outputs commands directly to the hardware to say > > which bits of memory it needs. Which means that no software program would > > Not possible to implement something like SSD (Servile Software Decoder) then? > That runs on the PC, for those who haven't seen it, and interprets commands > before it runs them - this lets it prevent certain things (eg memory allocation, > interrupt hooking). Obviously something for this would actually need to provide > the memory, but it could do it in a controlled way that wouldn't interfere. Well, yeeess, but at about 1 tenth of normal speed. It would be like running a Z80-compiled version of SimCoupe... Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 16:52:06 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:50:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: FTP (was:Re: SimCoupe at nvg) In-Reply-To: <16C8A85102D@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 937 Lines: 33 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > > Now a plea. Please upload more stuff. The Sam directory has > > a quite high download rate, and it can get better. PLEASE > > upload anything! > Erm...(thick Johnna strikes again)...how? If you use a proper ftp package then use put instead of get. Urm, if you're using a web browser I think they should be able to do so somehow, if not then stop using a crap web browser and use a proper ftp package ;) Oh yes, and you should only be able to put it in the pub/sam-coupe/incoming/ directory. ....@/ I seem to recall files should preferable be compressed, and if poss have a little note with them to say what htey are ;) they even ;) ////@. .........................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - http://dplinux.sund.ac.uk/~unc/ Staff of the Monochrome BBS - http://www.mono.org/ Owner of a Sam Coupe - http://www.mono.org/~unc/Coupe/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 16:58:23 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:52:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe at nvg In-Reply-To: <9702131439.AA05878@asmal.edh-net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 810 Lines: 19 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Frode Tenneboe wrote: > > SimCoupe v 0.3 has been placed int the ./simcoupe directory. > > Currently, there are, in addition to the source form, also a > > precompiled version for solaris 2.4. > > Who said things don't happen fast here? v 0.4.1 has now > been uploaded in the same forms as above. How about > linux/aix/hpux/ultrix/etc. binaries anyone? I'll upload the HPUX bin tomorrow.... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 17:06:38 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:01:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: ROM changes, SRAM and compilers In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970213151715.00923900@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1153 Lines: 28 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > >You got CP/M Hitech C running in Pro-DOS???? How??? > > 'taint difficult you know... I think I've had it running myself... My stuff manages to get ready to compile then stops and carries on without actually compiling stuff. you know, create the temp files, pretend to compile, then delete the temp files. I think I've pinned it down to the ZAS program which doesn't exactly do anything on my machine. :( It's a shame, coz I think ZAS is the best assembler I've seen but I can only seem to run it on my PC CP/M emulator... > Can't quite remember though... *sob sob* I hope someone remembers. It such a nice assembler with billions of features that I've had to start writing my own. I'd rather use ZAS... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 17:16:39 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:20:16 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The Next Step. In-reply-to: <16C9F132261@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 566 Lines: 14 > That sounds Soooo familiar ...("How come you've got 56 mails...what > the hell is a SAM coupe...are you some kind of freak?) Aahh yes, the old "How come you've got 56 mails" line. I know it well. (Although in my case they don't READ the mails, it's just everyone tends to look when the load BEEP noise occurs when you log in, saying "You have 56 mails") -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now Quiet! They're about to announce the lottery numbers!" - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 18:04:03 1997 Subject: Re: ROM changes, SRAM and compilers To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:00:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Feb 13, 97 05:01:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <19970213180130Z49166-22961+561@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 429 Lines: 13 > > On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > It's a shame, coz I think ZAS is the best assembler I've seen but I can > only seem to run it on my PC CP/M emulator... Ah... now was this fixed in the new version of ProDOS I've got (not generally released folks - sorry :( )? If you loook on the Prodos PD disk, there should be a program called "!" It's for the SUBMIT stuff... that *MAY* have something to do with it. Simon From imc Thu Feb 13 18:09:32 1997 Subject: Re: A Future Problem. To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:09:32 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 11, 97 07:25:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 302 Lines: 8 On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:25:51 +0000 (GMT), Andrew Collier said: > Here's another one, before I set up a local kill-file and never have to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > read your irritating postings again.... Oh yeah? They have those for email on hermes, do they? :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 18:13:48 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:08:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: ROM changes, SRAM and compilers In-Reply-To: <19970213180130Z49166-22961+561@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 638 Lines: 15 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > If you loook on the Prodos PD disk, there should be a program called "!" > > It's for the SUBMIT stuff... that *MAY* have something to do with it. I'll have a look... (when I get home, of course..) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 19:11:00 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis set sender to Relaxed using -f To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: The Next Step. References: <16CB4414C96@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware From: unknown Date: 13 Feb 1997 19:07:23 +0000 In-Reply-To: Johnna Teare's message of Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:04:57 GMT+0 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 502 Lines: 22 Johnna Teare writes: > > > Dave Handley writes: Except it was me that wrote it, and I'm not Dave Handley, though I did meet him once ... > > > Anyone else got bizarre uses for their SAM. > > > Yes, I...wait for it...use it for playing GAMES on. Bizzare! > > Witty without having to be anonymous :) What's that s'posed to mean ... -- Lee. X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 19:17:33 1997 Message-Id: <199702131915.TAA28812@athena.clara.net> X-Mailer: Atlantis Web Mail v0.9 From: Scott Ledbury To: BrenchleyR@aol.com Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:15:37 GMT Subject: Re: An Open Offer (was Re: A Future Problem.) Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 403 Lines: 16 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 04:17:19 -0500 (EST), BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > I does seem that certain people just love to argue. > > Bob. > I disagree! ----------------------------------------------------- This email was sent using ClaraNET's Email on the Web feature, a service to it's Customers. ClaraNET is not resposible for the contents of this email. http://www.clara.net/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 19:26:56 1997 X-Authentication-Warning: dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk: lwillis set sender to Relaxed using -f To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe at nvg References: <9702131439.AA05878@asmal.edh-net> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware From: unknown Date: 13 Feb 1997 19:21:03 +0000 In-Reply-To: ft@edh.ericsson.se's message of Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:39:10 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 709 Lines: 22 ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) writes: > > > SimCoupe v 0.3 has been placed int the ./simcoupe directory. > > Currently, there are, in addition to the source form, also a > > precompiled version for solaris 2.4. > > Who said things don't happen fast here? v 0.4.1 has now > been uploaded in the same forms as above. How about > linux/aix/hpux/ultrix/etc. binaries anyone? > Erm, The binaries you've put up don't seem to work on Solaris 2.5.1 and I thought this was meant to be backwards compatible with 2.4. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll try compiling it myself sometime soon though ... -- Lee. X-Mammoth Development Team. Are you aware ? Contact L.Willis@comp.brad.ac.uk for more information. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 19:26:56 1997 Message-Id: <199702131923.TAA28908@athena.clara.net> X-Mailer: Atlantis Web Mail v0.9 From: DLedbury To: Lee Willis Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:23:05 GMT Subject: Re: The Next Step. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 397 Lines: 19 On 13 Feb 1997 13:58:00 +0000, Lee Willis wrote: > Anyone else got bizarre uses for their SAM- > Lee. I use mine as a computer! David L ----------------------------------------------------- This email was sent using ClaraNET's Email on the Web feature, a service to it's Customers. ClaraNET is not resposible for the contents of this email. http://www.clara.net/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 19:33:24 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <25747.199702131930@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Delivery failure notification To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:30:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "James R Curry" at Feb 13, 97 03:50:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 177 Lines: 6 > Coo.. You're at Warwick. I'm near Warwick very frequently.. And my > train home stops in Leamington at the weekend.. Spooky. "Come up and see me sometime..." ;-) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 13 22:02:02 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:58:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@puce.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: A Future Problem. In-Reply-To: <9702131809.AA02184@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 715 Lines: 21 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Ian Collier wrote: > On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:25:51 +0000 (GMT), Andrew Collier said: > > Here's another one, before I set up a local kill-file and never have to > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > read your irritating postings again.... > > Oh yeah? They have those for email on hermes, do they? :-) > > imc Actually I usually filter my mail through to brain.sel and read it there, so I could throw away his messages if I wanted to. But honestly, I'd rather he stopped posting them himself (actually he seems to have, for the moment) because I don't want to be so drastic - on some occasions he has a valid point to make, but this is not one of them. Andrew From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 14 00:43:53 1997 Message-ID: <3303AB4E.517E@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:01:18 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity References: <9702131214.AA01517@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 618 Lines: 23 Ian Collier wrote: > > So if it isn't Nev, it's someone whom Nev trusts enough to lend him his > account ("nevilley@ndirect.co.uk" looked mighty suspicious but I didn't > realise it was Nev's real address until I checked my sam-users mail). > And it's someone who claims Nev's postcode is his own - perhaps he is > an employee of S D Software then? > Ohmigawd do I have to spell it out for you ? s a m s b o s s l e t s m e u s e t h e i r I S P b e c a u s e i t h a s a b e t t e r n e w s f e e d . and yes we _do_ trust each other. hint: try looking a little further West. HTH Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 14 08:38:28 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:51:24 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702140751.AA06232@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe at nvg X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 229 Lines: 9 > > Now a plea. Please upload more stuff. The Sam directory has > > a quite high download rate, and it can get better. PLEASE > > upload anything! > > Erm...(thick Johnna strikes again)...how? The keyword here is FTP. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 14 08:38:28 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:12:36 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9702140812.AA06254@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe at nvg X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 287 Lines: 8 > Erm, The binaries you've put up don't seem to work on Solaris 2.5.1 > and I thought this was meant to be backwards compatible with > 2.4. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll try compiling it myself sometime > soon though ... It's compiled with MIT-SHM. Perhaps that's the problem? -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 14 08:51:49 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:49:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3303AB4E.517E@ndirect.co.uk> from "Neville Young" at Feb 14, 97 00:01:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 82 Lines: 9 > > hint: > try looking a little further West. > Wot, like in Gloucester?! -A From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 14 09:00:06 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:57:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@jasmine.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAMSboss's Identity In-Reply-To: <970213041720_2026768013@emout01.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 779 Lines: 17 On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Why were you surprised? Did you doubt he intelligence? > (by the way folks, uk.singles is nothing like what you are thinking - its for > spider hating, cat loving, chocolate eating,vodka drinking, intelligent > people - like me... ) How can anyone not like spiders???? (Then I wouldn't suggest you look at my personal homepage then) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 14 10:43:02 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 05:06:30 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970214050629_785524999@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Could everyone read this please. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 555 Lines: 19 In a message dated 13/02/97 10:38:46, you write: >At 04:17 13/02/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Sytems to handle large, or even very large, blocks of data can be run >without >>any problem. SAM Basic does it (ok with a few bugs, but the idea is there). >>So why not with C? > >Namely because SAM C wasn't written with it in mind -- it was a slightly >updated port of Small C from CP/M. > >Simon Sorry Simon, I was not refering to SAM C (the one we have now) but C for SAM (that which is to come said with a load booming voice as in TH-HGTTG) Bob.