From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 11 19:38:58 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:43:01 GMT Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1B108BB1222@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 818 Lines: 18 > > > Hokay then, this is the second time I've asked... > > > > > > I've got 13 issues of SAM2SAM which I can teledisk down and upload to > > > the FTP if people would like, but I need to know how to do so. > > > > > > I've got an FTP client and try to do an anonymous login with my email > > > address, but the damn thing keeps asking me for a password. > > > > Umm, just have "anonymous" as your login and as your password > > Type bin, lcd to the directory of the files you want to upload, cd to the > upload directory, hash so you know whether it's crashed or not, and then > mput *.* or whatever.. Okay! That was a stupid reply! But I've got the flu and the monitor is swaying from side to side *sobs* *sniffs* *coughs* I only came in to see if Bob had replied to me. Did he? What do you think *sigh* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 11 20:59:05 1997 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 20:13:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@ibis.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Unite as one. Fly the flag. In-Reply-To: <19970311190105Z49193-250+974@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1871 Lines: 39 On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > I'm sick of the amount of bickering and lack of people willing to do the > work on this list. I'm on Simon's side here. The only reason why I subscribed to this is to get help for my own personal projects that I've been having probs with. Then someone mentioned the SAMson project and I said I'll do anything to help the design, prototype, development process. But I have a distinct lack of hardware knowledge which is filling up quite fast, I'm glad to note.. :) But if this bickering is going to continue, I will unsubscribe and keep to myself. I got what I originally needed from this list. I now know enough about hardware design/implementation to go and learn on my own, if needs be. I'm suprised the experts like Simon and Nev (not forgetting the others, otherwise I'll end up being shot) haven't already packed their bags and left. They've probably got less time to waste than we have. Where would we be then? But, like them (I suppose), I want to stay here and help other people: newcomers and huge projects alike. But I'm still a small fish without much influence. I know I get ignored quite a fair bit. I know I sometimes have opposing views. That's what this list is for: Discussion, NOT arguments.. So, come on. Lets finally unite and rule our nations as one. Fly only the one flag that symbolises the entire SAM Community. Let 1997 be the 'Year of the SAM' in our hearts, if not in the real world. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 11 22:52:45 1997 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:41:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP In-Reply-To: <1B08E492597@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 848 Lines: 24 If that doesn't work, try giving your E-mail address as your password. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Fulton (D.A.Fulton@durham.ac.uk) Trevelyan College, University of Durham. http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d60m3c/index.html PGP public key available on request. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Gavin Smith wrote: > > Hokay then, this is the second time I've asked... > > > > I've got 13 issues of SAM2SAM which I can teledisk down and upload to > > the FTP if people would like, but I need to know how to do so. > > > > I've got an FTP client and try to do an anonymous login with my email > > address, but the damn thing keeps asking me for a password. > > Umm, just have "anonymous" as your login and as your password > From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 11 22:52:45 1997 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:47:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <20081730620@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1242 Lines: 34 On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > That is a valid and fair point, but at least by having a vote, Bob > (or whoever's project we were voting upon) would be able to test the > water and see what kind of reaction the SAM users will give a > project. At the end of the day, nothing is achieved if somebody > produces a product that nobody wants. First we'll have to vote on what we're going to vote on... I would suggest the question would take the form: What project should be developed first? 1) A Sam-based (SRAM or etc) board, with no future Z380 expandability 2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory Comments anyone? Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 11 22:57:06 1997 Message-ID: <3325E300.6F48@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:56:00 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM IDE Interface References: <19970311174004Z49158-250+971@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 210 Lines: 13 Simon Cooke wrote: > > Dear Nev, > > Could you tell me the ports used to drive the IDE interface? I intend to > start using it for playing around with CD-ROM accesS :) > > Simon registers 191 data 189 hth From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 11 23:01:01 1997 Message-ID: <3325E3DC.2205@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:59:40 +0000 From: Neville Young X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Unite as one. Fly the flag. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 304 Lines: 11 Justin Skists wrote: > > > So, come on. Lets finally unite and rule our nations as one. Fly only the > one flag that symbolises the entire SAM Community. Let 1997 be the 'Year > of the SAM' in our hearts, if not in the real world. > bloody cheery optimist. go away I'm having fun being miserable. :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 09:48:49 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:32:18 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9703120732.AA28228@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 620 Lines: 16 > Hokay then, this is the second time I've asked... > > I've got 13 issues of SAM2SAM which I can teledisk down and upload to > the FTP if people would like, but I need to know how to do so. > > I've got an FTP client and try to do an anonymous login with my email > address, but the damn thing keeps asking me for a password. Typically you should read the documentation which is included in your distribution. It could also be an idea to read the connect message. Now, if you have waded through all this you can try: login: ftp password (if asked): e-mail address OR the address of the machine you'r on. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 09:48:50 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 03:38:54 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Unite as one. Fly the flag. Message-Id: <19970312102921Z49701-248+16@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 413 Lines: 17 Date: 1997-03-12 08:40 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Justin Skists >To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no >Subject: Unite as one. Fly the flag. > >On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > >I'm suprised the experts like Simon and Nev (not forgetting the others, > expert ? me ? pah ] if I'm an x-spurt then god help the rest you ] Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 09:48:50 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 03:43:51 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: SERIAL COMMS ON THE SAM Message-Id: <19970312102926Z49708-248+18@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 580 Lines: 21 Date: 1997-03-12 08:43 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:02:08 +0000 (GMT) >From: Simon Cooke > >Anyone interested in programming for the Gemini interface (find it on >ftp.nvg.ntnu.no) or the original SAM comms interface should have a look on: > >http://www.farnell.co.uk/uk > >Go into "Free technical support and datasheets". You'll need Adobe >acrobat to view the files. Search for: I down loaded some stuff last night and read it using ghost script. hth. nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 09:48:50 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 04:38:25 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970312043824_1284035935@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM Users Mailing List??? Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 919 Lines: 25 In a message dated 10/03/97 17:37:24, you write: >o > >I've just deleted about 200 mailings from this list and only a small >proportion of them were directly SAM related. > >Something else must have happened in the SAM World recently? >Surely...? > >And Bob, did you ever get any response from 'West Coast' when you >asked them if they would fund the SAMSon project? I thought I made that clear at the start but I don't have all the archives due to hard-drive failier in December so cant check. West Coast are not prepared to fund development at this stage. If something comes of the project, and from results so far that is looking unlikely, then they will do one of two things. Either release the SAM from its current contract so we can find another company to produce the new machine, or licence the SAMSON and go into production themselves. Of the two, I think the first will be the option they take. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 09:48:51 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 04:38:28 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970312043827_1350643950@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Show Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 593 Lines: 25 In a message dated 10/03/97 18:58:13, you write: >On Mar 10, 1997 04:58:12, '"YOUNG Neville, IT Life" ' >wrote: > > >>>On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Justin Skists wrote: >>>> On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Dave Handley wrote: >>>> > Wow, you own a SAM AND have 19 friends?]? Wierd? :) >>>> Doesn't everybody (who has a SAM, of course)? :) >>> >>>Depends whether you count the other 18 sam owners ;) >> >>and since when have sam owners been /friends/ with each other ? >> >>Nev > >Why all the time. >-- > >Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com Yes, just one big happy family ;-) Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 09:48:52 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:56:35 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments References: <199703111842.SAA19707@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Mar 11, 97 06:42:30 pm In-reply-to: <19970311190105Z49193-250+974@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1344 Lines: 31 > Oh, come on... take the Z380 board as an example... Martin Rookyard and > myself have spent at least 220UKP on building the prototype -- Static RAM > ain't cheap. > > Besides, all this inaction and not enough action is what I think. If > people think that they can work on it, let them. Let everyone split off > into groups working on something and just maybe we'll get something out > of it. > > I'm sick of the amount of bickering and lack of people willing to do the > work on this list. The whole reason I suggested a vote is because NOTHING SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING! I'm equally sick of the amount of bickering going on. Fine, if people are happy to split up and work on different projects, fine. But if the argument is over something to do with the advance of the SAM/SAMson and it's a 'one or the other' deal, then it needs to be decided. And since no-one can agree completely over some things, a vote seems to be the best suggestion in these matters. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 11:05:30 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970312105947.009238d0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:59:47 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: FLASH MEMORY -- spec Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 188 Lines: 9 For the spec on the flash memory, go to: http://www.farnell.co.uk/datasheets/688001.pdf There's other related chips there -- search for FLASH, and look for the CMOS, 1Mb ones :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 11:24:44 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:13:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@maple.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Unite as one. Fly the flag. In-Reply-To: <3325E3DC.2205@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 716 Lines: 17 On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Neville Young wrote: > bloody cheery optimist. > go away I'm having fun being miserable. Sorry. Everything's going my way at the moment. My final year project's finally coming together, I spent three-quarters of an hour on the phone to a nice girl, and Leicester City are through to Wembley. :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 11:24:45 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:10:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@maple.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Unite as one. Fly the flag. In-Reply-To: <19970312102921Z49701-248+16@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 588 Lines: 14 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, YOUNG Neville, IT Life wrote: > expert ? me ? pah ] > if I'm an x-spurt then god help the rest you ] Well, anyone with more knowledge than me is an expert.. So there! :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 11:24:45 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199703121116.LAA15182@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: MAOS To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:16:32 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2359 Lines: 63 > I think I'm getting this now. You want a system where a process can > allocate some 'normal' memory for itself and then some 'lowpriority' > memory for something not very important. However, if another > process comes along and wants some 'normal' memory and there is > nothing (or too little) free, the OS takes the first and best > 'lowpriority' memory it can lay it's addressing lines on? Thats the one. You could, (watering it down a little) view it as 3 lists of memory if you like, a free list, a low-prioity list, and a used list. What is the point in the low priority pages? Surely the hassels with processes having to find out if they still own them would outweigh the advantages? I don't think this is the case. The pages could be used for many usefull things: A CASHE MEMORY FOR THE WEB BROWSER; An extended keyboard memory; The duplicate data from a database generated to speed processing especially for calculated views; The scroll back buffer from any window; The GUI applications you have finished with and killed but may try to re-open any moment, thus saving the extravagent disc access time if the memory has not been re-used; The same for when you quit the whole GUI environment to go into basic for a few minuits and vice-versa; The background/windows obscured when a new window is placed on the screen, the back could be calculated when it needs re-displaying but this will save time if it doesn't change; Basically the 'go-faster-stripes' for most processes! Stuff that they could go without yet would make the software better. The sort of stuff you would feel guilty about allocating memory for when considering the more important purposes it might otherwise be put to. Using virtual memory you could end up with the situation where, say, a database creates a new view of a database to speed up access time and ends up reading it off the disc all of the time! Why has no one mentioned virtual memory before, if it is to be implemented then it would be a major part of the system. Thus needs to be considered as soon as possible. If we implement such memory I don't think we should try and hide the nature of the memory from the application in the way other machines strive to. It's nature may make a difference to the way the applications go about doing things. What do you reccon? Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 11:24:45 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:17:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@maple.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 736 Lines: 17 On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Andrew Collier wrote: > What project should be developed first? > > 1) A Sam-based (SRAM or etc) board, with no future Z380 expandability > 2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory Ermm.. #2. (Or is it a trick question :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 11:29:53 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:33:48 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 742 Lines: 19 > > 1) A Sam-based (SRAM or etc) board, with no future Z380 expandability > > 2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability > > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory > > Ermm.. #2. (Or is it a trick question :) Er, actually, I don't think he was starting a vote, he was asking for suggestions on would should be voted on. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 11:47:06 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:41:48 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9703121141.AA28582@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: MAOS X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3300 Lines: 93 > > I think I'm getting this now. You want a system where a process can > > allocate some 'normal' memory for itself and then some 'lowpriority' > > memory for something not very important. However, if another > > process comes along and wants some 'normal' memory and there is > > nothing (or too little) free, the OS takes the first and best > > 'lowpriority' memory it can lay it's addressing lines on? > > Thats the one. You could, (watering it down a little) view it as 3 lists > of memory if you like, a free list, a low-prioity list, and a used list. I got it! I got it! Tam tam... > > > What is the point in the low priority pages? Surely the hassels with > processes having to find out if they still own them would outweigh the > advantages? Does it? You have to remember that this chech has to be performed for EACH other memory access, effectively doubling the memory access of any given process (which has 'lowpri' memory). Remember, you can never know that a different process has grabed controll of the CPU and done some memory gymnastics. > > I don't think this is the case. > The pages could be used for many usefull things: > > A CASHE MEMORY FOR THE WEB BROWSER; > > An extended keyboard memory; > > The duplicate data from a database generated to speed processing > especially for calculated views; > > The scroll back buffer from any window; > > The GUI applications you have finished with and killed but may > try to re-open any moment, thus saving the extravagent > disc access time if the memory has not been re-used; > > The same for when you quit the whole GUI environment to go into > basic for a few minuits and vice-versa; > > The background/windows obscured when a new window is placed on the > screen, the back could be calculated when it needs > re-displaying but this will save time if it doesn't > change; > > > Basically the 'go-faster-stripes' for most processes! Stuff that they > could go without yet would make the software better. The sort of stuff you > would feel guilty about allocating memory for when considering the more > important purposes it might otherwise be put to. I can see the advantages, but it will involve a _lot_ of overhead and any poor implementation will make it go down the drain! > > > Using virtual memory you could end up with the situation where, say, a > database creates a new view of a database to speed up access time and > ends up reading it off the disc all of the time! In a a worst case scenario this could be the effect. How about a trashing alarm? :) > > Why has no one mentioned virtual memory before, if it is to be implemented > then it would be a major part of the system. Thus needs to be considered > as soon as possible. I've mentioned it...:) > > > If we implement such memory I don't think we should try and hide the > nature of the memory from the application in the way other machines > strive to. It's nature may make a difference to the way the applications > go about doing things. Why should it. It's the OS (or MAOS as you call it :) job to control the memory. If the application should treat different 'types' of memory differently, we'll end up with dosens of implementatios of it. No simple == safe! > > What do you reccon? > > Numbly. > -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 11:52:39 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Uncle Bulgaria Date: 12 Mar 1997 11:48:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: Justin Skists's message of Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:17:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 797 Lines: 23 On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Andrew Collier wrote: > What project should be developed first? > > 1) A Sam-based (SRAM or etc) board, with no future Z380 expandability > 2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory > I'd go for two or three, i.e. definitely not one as this seems to me to be a waste of time. Lee. PS. He might not have been asking for a vote, but howabout we have one anyway, I think the result may persuade people to go with the decision. -- With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. [ftp://sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/rfc/rfc1925.txt.gz] From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 12:09:33 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970312120327.00a3eaf0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:03:27 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 6769 Lines: 187 Hiya.. I got this a while back... >Hey, Sam Coupe people, > >Don't be couped up (auwgh) with that old muthaboard. How about taking = on >Intel, Apple, SGI, Be, a\box etc... > >I've been kicking the following project around for a bit, to see if an= yone >of a techie bent was interested. As you may have considered moving fro= m the >SAM motherboard onto a new model, perhaps with a modular [rackmount?] = style >of (home) construction, I take the liberty of sending a copy of the le= tter >I've been circulating. Herman Hauser reckons its a good idea, but didn= 't >know of anyone who would take it on, as it is effectively a new open >standard hardware architecture. Unix meets lego. > >The dawning of a new age in Brit Computing, or the Not2be Box? > >Found your page with a search, poss. on Lycos. Or something. Hey, it w= as late. > >Cheers, >Dr. David Harrison. >Interests: AI cybernetics, AR, Veganic gardening, biodiversity, Eng. L= it., >and Anthea Turner Fetishism. > >The Letter. > >I left computing in the mid-1980s when a whole range of micros used th= e >8-bit cpus, to return again a few years ago when I needed a Mac to pro= duce >my thesis. Things had changed: electronics magazines had virtually >disappeared, and computing magazines were full of retail products ship= ped >fully manufactured from the Far East. I guess the computing market had >matured, but something had gone. > >Micros offered a friendly front-end to learning about electronics and = data >communications. It was possible to build a design from a monthly magaz= ine, >plug it in the back of a computer, and watch it do something new and w= ild. >It was possible to build a computer from designs in an off-the-shelf >magazine and then get it to do something. Games cost =A35 and had play= ability >oozing out of the cassette case, not =A340-looks-pretty-but-boring-as-= hell. > >Nowadays all new technology is mass-produced, and all you need is a lo= t of >cash. Electronics magazines concentrate on PICs. Somehow a micro with = a >keyboard, easy access to BASIC and assembler programming, and a VDU/TV >display is a lot more inviting than a PIC. It isn't surprising that th= e news >from science education is rather grim. Not many parents would want the= ir >offspring to plug a home-made robot into the =A32000 family multimedia= PC. And >those PICs, whilst they may be the future, are fundamentally 'unsexy'.= I >doubt they will be attracting kids to lunchtime electronics sessions t= he way >micro clubs used to. > >I wrote to some electronics magazines and asked if they would consider >bringing back the Sinclair Spectrum and revamping it, interfacing it t= o new >technology, yet retaining the massive software base of playable games = for >educational and hobbyist purposes. The response was not very enthusias= tic. > >Then I came upon the 'Z80180' chip in the Maplin magazine, and via Zil= og's >web site, the Z182 and Z380. These are fast powerful chips and seem to= have >code compatibility with the Z80. > >I realise that embedded technology may be Zilog's thing now, in a worl= d >dominated by RISC and x86 chips, but I emailed them (no reply yet) to = ask if >they had ever given any thought to the development of an >educational/hobbyist computer system, designed along modular grounds (= maybe >rack-mounted, S-100 like)? It would offer hobbyists and students the c= hance >to build a computer from scratch that might: > >* be software compatible, with an emulator, with the old Spectrum/Sam = games >base (an excellent 'carrot' for enticing the young to get into electro= nics). > >* be affordable, purchasing the boards and components as they could. > >* be instructive-teaching the basics of digital electronics in a proje= ct >that went on to do something 'real', with accompanying literature, and >perhaps a place in the UK's National Curriculuum (and the US equivalen= t). > >* appear in a standard electronics magazine as a long-term project, wi= th the >'difficult' bits (PCBs, cases, BASIC interpreter) readily available. > >* attract collaborative support for software and hardware development,= like >the old micros did (they only really have to start the ball rolling wi= th the >initial designs). Rather like Unix has developed. > >* have full functionality for general 'works' tasks (wp, database etc)= ; and >perhaps a competition for a textual or graphical browser for the web. > >The hobbyist/educational background would protect the project from the >market-led desire for faster and more powerful technology (a blessing = in >disguise as the 1980s computer revolution virtually priced itself to d= eath >in furious competition). It would certainly be an interesting way to >celebrate the Z80's 20th anniversary. It is almost a project waiting t= o >happen. Taking all the best facets of the 80s computer revolution and >implementing them with today's powerful technology, and cheap RAM. It = would >be designed for educational and hobbyist needs, not for the market, no= r for >compatibility with wintel designs (no 640K memory problem!). > >I'd suggest a basic system would need: BASIC built-in (I can't emphasi= se too >highly how important this is for the younger student), modularity and = ease >of construction, i/fs to IDE hdd, standard fdd, serial and parallel, >standard (ie. =A310) keyboard, mouse, joystick, vdu and TV, processor = direct >style bus for peripherals, and some good back-up literature. RAM is ch= eap >and the amount of RAM the later Zilog chips can access suggests that t= here >would be no problems in the production of a computer that would be pow= erful >enough to do quite a bit, and offer a real boost to the electronic hob= byist >as well as a new educational development system. > >Other ideas include high-capacity sideways ROMs for: the BASIC/other >language interpreter, a DOS-like command line interface for programs >compiled into machine code, a web browser, and operational (rather tha= n >flashy) GUI-perhaps something like GEM. > >At first this must seem utterly crazy, but the more I thought about it= , the >more sense it made. The problem: my rather abysmal Z80 could not handl= e an >OS, and although I would build it, I certainly couldn't design it. > >I realise that a RISC chip could power such a machine, but I have no >knowledge of the programming angles, and I doubt Acorn would decide to >produce a modular build-it-yourself version. The RISC PC architecture = is >certainly a model of its type-particularly its use of the ROM. I simpl= y have >no experience of such kit. > >It just seems that the market has left the education/hobby electronics= area >behind with potentially serious consequences for science education. The guy's address is: prospero@pncl.co.uk (Dr. David Harrison) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 12:40:21 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:34:55 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Untie the flag. Message-Id: <19970312123514Z49178-248+43@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 663 Lines: 21 Date: 1997-03-12 12:36 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Justin Skists >To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no >Subject: Re: Unite as one. Fly the flag. > >On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Neville Young wrote: > >> bloody cheery optimist. >> go away I'm having fun being miserable. > >Sorry. Everything's going my way at the moment. My final year project's >finally coming together, I spent three-quarters of an hour on the >phone to a nice girl, and Leicester City are through to Wembley. :) I suppose I should be happier. I got my decree absolute today. drinks Friday 1.00 pm cross keys Liverpool. :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 12:53:29 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Untie the flag. References: <19970312123514Z49178-248+43@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Uncle Bulgaria Date: 12 Mar 1997 12:43:51 +0000 In-Reply-To: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life"'s message of Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:34:55 EST Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 703 Lines: 22 "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" writes: > > > >On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Neville Young wrote: > > > >> bloody cheery optimist. > >> go away I'm having fun being miserable. > > > >Sorry. Everything's going my way at the moment. My final year project's > >finally coming together, I spent three-quarters of an hour on the > >phone to a nice girl, and Leicester City are through to Wembley. :) > > I suppose I should be happier. I got my decree absolute today. > drinks Friday 1.00 pm cross keys Liverpool. > :) Is that the one over the road from (ex) Royal Insurance head-office ?? If it is it's a nice little place and always full of Royal staff at lunch times if I remember rightly ... From imc Wed Mar 12 13:02:03 1997 Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:02:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970312120327.00a3eaf0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Mar 12, 97 12:03:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 187 Lines: 8 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:03:27 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > Hiya.. I got this a while back... [188 lines deleted] Good grief, do I really have to read all that? How about a summary? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:53 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:28:08 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Untie the flag. Message-Id: <19970312132914Z49160-248+50@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 644 Lines: 22 Date: 1997-03-12 13:30 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Untie the flag. >From: Uncle Bulgaria >Date: 12 Mar 1997 12:43:51 +0000 > >"YOUNG Neville, IT Life" writes: > >> I suppose I should be happier. I got my decree absolute today. >> drinks Friday 1.00 pm cross keys Liverpool. >> :) > >Is that the one over the road from (ex) Royal Insurance head-office ?? > >If it is it's a nice little place and always full of Royal staff at >lunch times if I remember rightly ... Yep that's the one. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:53 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:29:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@euler.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970312120327.00a3eaf0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 499 Lines: 13 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: {snip} That's what I had hoped the SAMson project would be... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:53 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:29:55 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED Message-Id: <19970312133024Z49174-248+51@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 501 Lines: 20 Date: 1997-03-12 13:31 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ian Collier >Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED >To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no >Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:02:04 +0000 (GMT) > >On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:03:27 +0000, Simon Cooke said: >> Hiya.. I got this a while back... > >Y188 lines deleted? > >Good grief, do I really have to read all that? How about a summary? > >imc read it its good. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:54 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:32:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@euler.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED In-Reply-To: <9703121302.AA11318@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 761 Lines: 21 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Ian Collier wrote: > On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:03:27 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > > Hiya.. I got this a while back... > > [188 lines deleted] > > Good grief, do I really have to read all that? How about a summary? Summary: Modularised SAMson-type project aimed at the electronics/computer hobbyists. Nice idea.. Worth going toward, IMHO.. :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:54 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <10241.199703121333@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:33:33 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Mar 11, 97 10:47:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 90 Lines: 5 > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory 'dat one, please. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:55 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:30:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@euler.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 570 Lines: 14 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, James R Curry wrote: > Er, actually, I don't think he was starting a vote, he was asking for > suggestions on would should be voted on. Whatever... :) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:55 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <10490.199703121335@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:35:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <19970311190105Z49193-250+974@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> from "Simon Cooke" at Mar 11, 97 07:00:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 246 Lines: 11 > I'm sick of the amount of bickering and lack of people willing to do the > work on this list. I'm willing - the problem is a) lack of knowledge b) /serious/ lack of time ATM c) no-one can agree on anything to do in the first place... Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:56 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <10753.199703121337@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:37:19 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Justin Skists" at Mar 11, 97 04:59:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 208 Lines: 8 > We're not going down that path again, are we? If so, I'll have to find my > sam-users.txt and unsubscribe... Can if you want ... I'm only going to be here for three/four more days anyway, so... :) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:55:56 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:46:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1339 Lines: 32 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, James R Curry wrote: > > > 1) A Sam-based (SRAM or etc) board, with no future Z380 expandability > > > 2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability > > > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory > > > > Ermm.. #2. (Or is it a trick question :) > > Er, actually, I don't think he was starting a vote, he was asking for > suggestions on would should be voted on. Correct, I was "testing the water" for the question itself, although if people are answering it, perhaps the question is okay. It certainly wasn't intended to be a trick question; 1) is the current "official" plan, 3) is closer to what Simon was/is planning. 2) is a possible compromise. Personally I'd vote for either 2 or 3, depending on what the hardware experts say could be done soonest. Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 13:56:23 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:58:12 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED In-reply-to: <9703121302.AA11318@client28.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19970312120327.00a3eaf0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Mar 12, 97 12:03:27 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 591 Lines: 19 > [188 lines deleted] > > Good grief, do I really have to read all that? How about a summary? > > imc And, ladies and gentelmen, this message illustrates the one major problem in the SAM world today... Laziness! :) -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 14:10:55 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:08:40 +0000 Subject: Re: Show X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <22DF6C07AEE@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 588 Lines: 19 > > > Radiographers aren't bad either (In the stupidly misguided hope that > > > my girlfriend might by some quirk of the net, read this and see me > > > paying her a compliment for once ...) > > > > Same goes for chicks studying chemistry and law (same reason) > > > > What you've got _two_ ? ;) What? Haven't you? ;) --dave-- ADVERTISEMENT---- | Holy Cheesus! Cheese flavored potato balls snack! From the makers of Schmilk - the surprsing alternative to milk! | ------------+ http://www.geocities.com/area51/5636/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 15:13:01 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199703121456.OAA19446@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:56:34 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 292 Lines: 13 >> 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory > >'dat one, please. > >Paul Time for this thred to develop further... I would also prefer we put our efforts into option 3. Although option 2 would be acceptable if we can get our heads around the forward planning.. Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 15:13:02 1997 Message-Id: <199703121456.PAA25115@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:56:36 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 566 Lines: 19 Van: Simon Cooke Aan: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Onderwerp: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED Datum: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 1:03 > The guy's address is: > prospero@pncl.co.uk (Dr. David Harrison) "Prospero" aka "Black Arrow" an attempt to get something into space by the UK in the early seventies. Maybe this will get off the ground :-) Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] [http://www.caiw.nl/~rjvveeke/hentai2.htm] Hentai Oranda -- We have been brought here by desire -- Pinhead in Hellbound (hellraiser II) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 15:28:21 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:30:16 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1521 Lines: 43 Okay! We seem to have narrowed it down to 2 of Andrews suggestions. Now we really should conduct this vote properly. Here goes - REPLY to this message, and edit out everything but the option you want to go for. The options - Pasted in from Andrews message.. 2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory I think some rules may be needed. No multiple voting. No psuedo-names or screen-names should vote (this means you samsboss) as you could be someone else multiple- voting. Samsboss - This is not a personal attack, my point above is quiet valid. Perhaps if were to reveal your identity to someone trusted on this list, who could confirm that you aren't on the list under any other name, then you could vote in this. Please note - I'm only posting this vote to try and get this moving again so all you hardware experts can advance this project further. Let's say this vote closes in one week. Next Wendsday - 15:00. That gives everyone a chance. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:00:46 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:01:14 +0000 Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <22FD6FC61F8@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 717 Lines: 21 > The options - Pasted in from Andrews message.. > > 2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 > expandability > > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard > memory To be honest I'm not entirely sure I understand the difference. Is the Sam-based (SRAM ") board the motherboard, or another plugin for the existing SAM? Anyway, for my vote, I think I'd go for 2). --dave-- ADVERTISEMENT---- | Holy Cheesus! Cheese flavored potato balls snack! From the makers of Schmilk - the surprising alternative to milk! | ------------+ eat my face: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5636/ drink my beer: http://yi.com/home/HooperDave/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:13:49 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:07:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@kola.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 987 Lines: 25 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, James R Curry wrote: > 2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 > expandability > > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard > memory I've decided to vote for number three, if we can. This is presuming that the Z380 card has the same facilities as the SRAM card (ie the 128K reprogrammable ROM block) But I'm quite happy with number 2 presuming that we THINK about how the Z380 is going to connect to it first. Then again, if we do that, we might aswell do number three since it would be cheaper to produce in the end, I hope.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:25:50 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:23:08 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Your vote. References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 841 Lines: 23 > I've decided to vote for number three, if we can. > > This is presuming that the Z380 card has the same facilities as the SRAM > card (ie the 128K reprogrammable ROM block) > > But I'm quite happy with number 2 presuming that we THINK about how the > Z380 is going to connect to it first. Then again, if we do that, we might > aswell do number three since it would be cheaper to produce in the end, I > hope.. > We'll count that as a vote for number 3 then, yes? -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:25:51 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:13:51 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970312111350_-1539644434@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: channel5 retuning - Reply Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1699 Lines: 42 In a message dated 11/03/97 18:23:12, you write: >Ian Collier writes: > >> On 11 Mar 1997 13:20:59 +0000, Uncle Bulgaria said: >> > I'm sure I read somewhere that it was intended to be on 36 hence why >> > videos etc. needed to be retuned 'coz that's the frequency that they >> > use. I think it was FORMAT years ago ... >> >> OK, but FORMAT isn't an official Channel 5 communication and someone >> probably got it wrong and was passing on bad information. >> > >Surely not ... > > > >Lee. Thank you Lee, of course FORMAT did not pass on bad information. UHF TV uses channels from 21 to 69 but, to avoid interferance with I think it was something like radar, channels 35 to 39 were not to be used for transmission. So, people line video manufactures opted for channal 36 as the ideal channel to use for their equipment. Computer/games consols just followed the trend. With the crowded airways there is no space for Channel 5 in the 21-34+40-69 setup in some areas unless they went much higher or lower than the channel numbers used by the other 5 stations (which would have resulted in most people having to fit a new roof arial to get the wider band reception. So, C5 were authorized to use the 35-39 band in areas where is is necessary (about 20% of the country the say). This meand that in those areas and video/computer equipment using chan 36 has to be adjusted away in one direction or the other. Problem is that the C5 tuning staff will not do it for you - they will only tune in your main TV and one video. Bob. Who does read the technical journals to make sure the news in FORMAT is well ahead of anyone else. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:25:51 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:14:09 GMT Message-Id: <199703121614.QAA05764@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1120 Lines: 40 On Mar 11, 1997 22:47:58, 'Andrew Collier ' wrote: >On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Johnna Teare wrote: > >> That is a valid and fair point, but at least by having a vote, Bob >> (or whoever's project we were voting upon) would be able to test the >> water and see what kind of reaction the SAM users will give a >> project. At the end of the day, nothing is achieved if somebody >> produces a product that nobody wants. > >First we'll have to vote on what we're going to vote on... > >I would suggest the question would take the form: > > >What project should be developed first? > >1) A Sam-based (SRAM or etc) board, with no future Z380 expandability This is one that can be started right away. The hardwares been designed. >2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability This one can't be done until after item 3. >3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory A big step, do we have the ability to take this big a project on, this early in the day? > > > >Comments anyone? > > >Andrew Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:25:51 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:15:57 GMT Message-Id: <199703121615.QAA05792@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Untie the flag. From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 875 Lines: 30 On Mar 12, 1997 07:34:55, '"YOUNG Neville, IT Life" ' wrote: >Date: 1997-03-12 12:36 >Priority: > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >From: Justin Skists >>To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no >>Subject: Re: Unite as one. Fly the flag. >> >>On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Neville Young wrote: >> >>> bloody cheery optimist. >>> go away I'm having fun being miserable. >> >>Sorry. Everything's going my way at the moment. My final year project's >>finally coming together, I spent three-quarters of an hour on the >>phone to a nice girl, and Leicester City are through to Wembley. :) > >I suppose I should be happier. I got my decree absolute today. >drinks Friday 1.00 pm cross keys Liverpool. >:) Oh f*%k it, I'm in London on Friday, sorry Nev. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:39:20 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:30:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@kola.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Your vote. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 498 Lines: 13 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, James R Curry wrote: > We'll count that as a vote for number 3 then, yes? Yeah. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:56:42 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:42:53 GMT Message-Id: <199703121642.QAA05670@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2015 Lines: 52 On Mar 12, 1997 15:30:16, '"James R Curry" ' wrote: >Okay! We seem to have narrowed it down to 2 of Andrews suggestions. >Now we really should conduct this vote properly. Here goes - > >REPLY to this message, and edit out everything but the option you >want to go for. > >The options - Pasted in from Andrews message.. > >2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 >expandability > >3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard >memory > >I think some rules may be needed. > >No multiple voting. No psuedo-names or screen-names should vote >(this means you samsboss) as you could be someone else multiple- >voting. > >Samsboss - This is not a personal attack, my point above is quiet >valid. Perhaps if were to reveal your identity to someone trusted on >this list, who could confirm that you aren't on the list under any >other name, then you could vote in this. I do see your point, and as I have been accused of being both Nev and Bob in the past, and as they are the only two on this list that I feel will respect my request for anonymity, that cuts me out. > [snipped] However, as I've said before, from the information I have it is going to come down to money and time. And IMO, there is an awful long road to hike to reach the Z380. I just get the impression that some people do not have the faintest idea what is going to be involved and how long it is going to take. My vote would be for something that is achievable. Just imagin the buzz to be had by finishing something and making it available to other SAM users. Of the three options I think only the Z80 SRAM can be built in the short term. I agree with both Bob and Nev that we have to learn to co-operate and that wont happen if the project is too big. If it is not the SRAM then is there something else we could do? Anything? Because the Z380, wonderful and exciting though it may be, is NOT the project to start with. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:56:42 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:42:57 GMT Message-Id: <199703121642.QAA05701@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 244 Lines: 13 On Mar 12, 1997 13:33:33, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >> 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory > >'dat one, please. > >Paul Got lots of money to spare??? -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 16:56:42 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:43:07 GMT Message-Id: <199703121643.QAA05772@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 258 Lines: 13 On Mar 12, 1997 12:03:27, 'Simon Cooke ' wrote: >Hiya.. I got this a while back... > [major snip] > Not bad at all. The S100 bus could be interesting to look at. Has anyone got back to him? -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 17:33:39 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:29:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@kola.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 In-Reply-To: <199703121642.QAA05670@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1041 Lines: 22 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > term. I agree with both Bob and Nev that we have to learn to co-operate and > that wont happen if the project is too big. Wow.. i'm agreeing with Samsboss/Nev/Bob here.. I must be in a good mood.. > If it is not the SRAM then is there something else we could do? Anything? > Because the Z380, wonderful and exciting though it may be, is NOT the > project to start with. What we need is something that can be used on both the native SAM and Z380. How about a intermediate bus extender on the SAM that will be ready for the Z380? The we can make things like a Clock that will fit both. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 18:19:54 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:59:18 GMT Message-Id: <199703121759.RAA16616@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 495 Lines: 16 On Mar 12, 1997 17:29:43, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >What we need is something that can be used on both the native SAM and >Z380. How about a intermediate bus extender on the SAM that will be ready >for the Z380? The we can make things like a Clock that will fit both. > >- But as has been pointed out before, to do _anything_ Z380 you gorra design the Z380 board first. We can't wait that long, we need to make some progress /now/. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 18:26:24 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: sskardon@argonet.co.uk (Stewart Skardon) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 22:54:12 X-Mailer: VTi Internet Email reader 1.09 : aa Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 900 Lines: 31 On Tue 11 Mar 97 (18:54:27), j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk wrote: >I've got 13 issues of SAM2SAM which I can teledisk down and upload to >the FTP if people would like, but I need to know how to do so. > Can I make a plea? PLEASE don't use teledisc. What about those of us e.g me, who aren't using a PC, but want to look at half the stuff on the FTP site? Can't we use something like ZIP files, at least they work correctly, unlike Teledisc, which I've heard hangs up on loads of machines. >Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) >JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) >"They call me Mad The Swine." > > Stewart -- _ (_`tewart sskardon@argonet.co.uk ,_) kardon http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/mind.html Crashed WWW Site - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon NSSS Web Site - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/nsss.html From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 18:38:05 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 18:34:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@kola.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 In-Reply-To: <199703121759.RAA16616@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1178 Lines: 35 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > But as has been pointed out before, to do _anything_ Z380 you gorra design > the Z380 board first. We can't wait that long, we need to make some > progress /now/. It's a vicious circle. We want Z380 <-----------| | | V | Can't get Z380 coz we | need to learn to work | together | | | V | Sample project: What? | | | V | Nothing we can't use | in the future. | | | V | OK. What, then? | | | V | Something Z380 based. | |____________________| -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 19:56:37 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:42:23 GMT+0 Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <218BEF82E2E@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 274 Lines: 11 > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard > memory > Don't know if you wanted this posted to the list but that's what I've done... Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "They call me Mad The Swine." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 20:24:02 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:12:56 GMT Message-Id: <199703122012.UAA10947@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 967 Lines: 39 On Mar 12, 1997 18:34:33, 'Justin Skists ' wrote: >On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >> But as has been pointed out before, to do _anything_ Z380 you gorra design >> the Z380 board first. We can't wait that long, we need to make some >> progress /now/. > >It's a vicious circle. > >We want Z380 <-----------| >| | >V | >Can't get Z380 coz we | >need to learn to work | >together | >| | >V | >Sample project: What? | >| | >V | >Nothing we can't use | >in the future. | >| | >V | >OK. What, then? | >| | >V | >Something Z380 based. | >|____________________| The just HAS to be a way round this impass. Any ideas folks? -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 20:51:15 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:47:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@kola.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 In-Reply-To: <199703122012.UAA10947@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 572 Lines: 14 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > The just HAS to be a way round this impass. > Any ideas folks? I think I have an idea.. Let me think it over tonight.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 21:32:04 1997 Message-Id: <199703122130.VAA14079@mail.enterprise.net> From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave Whitmore) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-FTN-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Uploading to the NVG FTP Date: 12 Mar 1997 21:38:51 Organization: Dead Dalmation References: X-newsreader: Spot 1.3 Unregistered X-mailer: NetGate 1.3 (Amiga; TCP/IP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 538 Lines: 22 In a message of 11 Mar 97 Stewart Skardon wrote to sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no: Hi Stewart, SS> Can I make a plea? PLEASE don't use teledisc. What about those of us SS> e.g me, who aren't using a PC, but want to look at half the stuff on the SS> FTP site? That's true. :( SS> Can't we use something like ZIP files, at least they work correctly, SS> unlike Teledisc, which I've heard hangs up on loads of machines. How can we zip/unzip disks on SAM? BTW, can you read from and write to SAM disks on the archie? Bye, Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 21:45:38 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: sskardon@argonet.co.uk (Stewart Skardon) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 20:58:49 X-Mailer: VTi Internet Email reader 1.09 : aa Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 409 Lines: 18 >3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard >memory > This one sounds the nicest, so that's the one I'll go for :-) -- _ (_`tewart sskardon@argonet.co.uk ,_) kardon http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/mind.html Crashed WWW Site - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon NSSS Web Site - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/nsss.html From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 22:23:56 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:16:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 In-Reply-To: <199703121759.RAA16616@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1855 Lines: 39 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >What we need is something that can be used on both the native SAM and > >Z380. How about a intermediate bus extender on the SAM that will be ready > >for the Z380? The we can make things like a Clock that will fit both. That sounds like a vote for option 2 then, which is fair enough. > But as has been pointed out before, to do _anything_ Z380 you gorra design > the Z380 board first. We can't wait that long, we need to make some > progress /now/. Pointed out by whom other than yourself? Anyway, your first conjecture is not true. I don't think the Z380 board would need to be rigourously planned, but some thought will be required to modify the current SRAM board design to take account of the existance of the Z380. I notice that, so far, the number of votes for option (1) seem to indicate that, despite being perhaps the most quickest initial project, it would not be very popular (read: successful) among Sam-users as a whole, so will not be the most worthwhile. Please don't underestimate the talent of some of the people on this list. Much of the design groundwork behind an option (3) has already been done, I don't think the Z380 is so far away. And before you ask, yes I would be prepared to pay more for the board, given that it will actually do something useful. Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 22:23:56 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:21:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 In-Reply-To: <199703121642.QAA05670@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 963 Lines: 21 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > My vote would be for something that is achievable. Just imagin the buzz to > be had by finishing something and making it available to other SAM users. Just think of the buzz you'll get when you show the average Sam user an option(1) SRAM board and they say; "Well, yeah, of course it sounds great... What, it costs how much? So what can it do? Yes....? Well, Um... Perhaps next time. Bye then." Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 22:43:39 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:40:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <199703121614.QAA05764@pipe1.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1451 Lines: 40 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >What project should be developed first? > > > >1) A Sam-based (SRAM or etc) board, with no future Z380 expandability > > This is one that can be started right away. The hardwares been designed. So is that the one you'd vote for? We want to know what sam-users *want*, not necessarily what you think is easiest to do. > >2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability > > This one can't be done until after item 3. Says you. But read the question. If the option (3) is chosen and built, there will be no place for the SRAM card _as such_ - note I was careful to include the onboard memory in the description. > >3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > A big step, do we have the ability to take this big a project on, this > early in the day? Probably. Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 12 23:02:54 1997 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:54:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP In-Reply-To: <199703122130.VAA14079@mail.enterprise.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1308 Lines: 32 On 12 Mar 1997, Dave Whitmore wrote: > SS> Can't we use something like ZIP files, at least they work correctly, > SS> unlike Teledisc, which I've heard hangs up on loads of machines. Including brain.sel (sometimes) > How can we zip/unzip disks on SAM? This is one of the reasons I uploaded SBT files for the MNEMOtech programs, the whole idea is that it cuts out the hassle of transfer. But admittedly SBT is not good if you want to keep the files on the Sam, so something else is perhaps needed. If people think it is worthwhile (so email before Sturday if you think it will be), over the holiday I should be able to knock up a Sam version of something a bit like Teledisk, which would compress an unprotected (normal format) Sam disk into a self-decompacting file; how does that sound? Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 06:24:59 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:21:46 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9703130621.AA00404@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 726 Lines: 20 > On Tue 11 Mar 97 (18:54:27), j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk wrote: > > >I've got 13 issues of SAM2SAM which I can teledisk down and upload to > >the FTP if people would like, but I need to know how to do so. > > > > Can I make a plea? PLEASE don't use teledisc. What about those of us e.g me, > who aren't using a PC, but want to look at half the stuff on the FTP site? There's always somebody left out in the cold....you must agree that most people can access a PC. Hence the choice of teledisk. > > Can't we use something like ZIP files, at least they work correctly, unlike > Teledisc, which I've heard hangs up on loads of machines. Teledisk was at the time the only utility which could copy an entire disk raw. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 07:57:52 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 02:54:14 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED Message-Id: <19970313075439Z49175-248+170@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 584 Lines: 25 Date: 1997-03-12 15:02 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "James R Curry" >To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no >Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:58:12 GMT >Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED > > >> Y188 lines deleted? >> >> Good grief, do I really have to read all that? How about a summary? >> >> imc > >And, ladies and gentelmen, this message illustrates the one major >problem in the SAM world today... Laziness] :) I was going to say that but I've not got the asbestos suit here at work. :) nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:28 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:46:21 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Your vote In-reply-to: <218BEF82E2E@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 828 Lines: 21 > Don't know if you wanted this posted to the list but that's what I've > done... Yeah, I did. No-one seems to want their opinion kept secret on this anyway, so I thought it would be interesting. I also thought I could pick out all the RE : VOTE SRAM or Z380 messages out easily as the vote messages and save them elsewhere, but life is never that simple. They've decided to reply to the message and start a conversation with that subject line - AUGH! -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:29 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:48:39 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 471 Lines: 15 > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard > memory No reason why I can't vote myself. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:29 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:51:39 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The VOTE! (See, I can change the subject line) References: <199703121759.RAA16616@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 815 Lines: 19 > I notice that, so far, the number of votes for option (1) seem to indicate > that, despite being perhaps the most quickest initial project, it would > not be very popular (read: successful) among Sam-users as a whole, so will > not be the most worthwhile. That became apparent after your original message, so in my vote message, I removed the option. However if anyone REALLY is desperate to put option 1 back in the running, then do say so. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:29 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:52:24 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 References: <199703121642.QAA05670@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 677 Lines: 17 > Just think of the buzz you'll get when you show the average Sam user an > option(1) SRAM board and they say; "Well, yeah, of course it sounds > great... What, it costs how much? So what can it do? Yes....? Well, Um... > Perhaps next time. Bye then." Bingo. Option 2 and Option 3 both sound much better. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:30 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:55:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP References: <199703122130.VAA14079@mail.enterprise.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 848 Lines: 23 > If people think it is worthwhile (so email before Sturday if you think it > will be), over the holiday I should be able to knock up a Sam version of > something a bit like Teledisk, which would compress an unprotected (normal > format) Sam disk into a self-decompacting file; how does that sound? YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes! Yes. Yes!! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Yes! YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. Yes. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:31 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:56:29 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED In-reply-to: <19970313075439Z49175-248+170@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 490 Lines: 16 > I was going to say that but I've not got the asbestos suit here at work. > > :) It's okay, I'm hiding behind my chair. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:31 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:58:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Andrew's program idea. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 675 Lines: 15 Andrew, if you're going to write this disk archive program. Which I like the idea of, if you didn't guess from my previous message. Then write a program that can read Teledisk files and convert them to your format. That way, the entire FTP site can be converted to use your program in about 6 seconds. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:32 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:55:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 809 Lines: 21 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, James R Curry wrote: > YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes, > yes. Yes! Yes. Yes!! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! > Yes! YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Sorry, that reply seems a bit ambiguous, could you elaborate on it a bit? :) Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:03:35 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Show References: <22DF6C07AEE@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Uncle Bulgaria Date: 13 Mar 1997 09:54:12 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Dave Hooper"'s message of Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:08:40 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 796 Lines: 25 "Dave Hooper" <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> writes: > > > > Radiographers aren't bad either (In the stupidly misguided hope that > > > > my girlfriend might by some quirk of the net, read this and see me > > > > paying her a compliment for once ...) > > > > > > Same goes for chicks studying chemistry and law (same reason) > > > > > > > What you've got _two_ ? ;) > > What? Haven't you? > ;) > Nope, about four at the last count, though one of them is strictly speaking an _ex_ ... Lee. {Now hoping his girlfriend doesn't read this ...} -- With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. [ftp://sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/rfc/rfc1925.txt.gz] From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:10:26 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:04:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Andrew's program idea. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1091 Lines: 24 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, James R Curry wrote: > Andrew, if you're going to write this disk archive program. Which I > like the idea of, if you didn't guess from my previous message. Then > write a program that can read Teledisk files and convert them to your > format. That way, the entire FTP site can be converted to use your > program in about 6 seconds. Trouble is I have no idea how Teledisk files are arranged. It also probably uses something like ZIP compression which I wouldn't, I'd use the MNEMOcompress algorithm because I've already written that and got it working. Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:20:50 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:15:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 863 Lines: 17 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Andrew Collier wrote: > If people think it is worthwhile (so email before Sturday if you think it > will be), over the holiday I should be able to knock up a Sam version of > something a bit like Teledisk, which would compress an unprotected (normal > format) Sam disk into a self-decompacting file; how does that sound? It's a pretty good idea. I was thinking about doing one myself but I couldn't at the time think of a way of doing it.... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:29:24 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:23:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "James R Curry" at Mar 13, 97 09:48:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1605 Lines: 35 Hmmm. A SRAM board does have appeal, but since its main purpose is to hold a new OS, I'm not all that keen. Not that I don't want a new OS, but let's be frank - the SAM has hardly seen huge amounts of activity on the software front, so I doubt an OS would be likely to see the light of day. A new processor, however - well, I like this one! Far more exciting. Again, there's still the software problem, but hopefully people will be spurred on by the fact they've got a new processor to find out about - and this is one reason I would like to use a processor other than the z380. Yes, OK - the z380 would allow us to run existing SAM software, but not without headaches. Also, it's not much more exciting than the z80 we've already got. I'd like to see a completely different processor. Preferrably one which isn't very common - using a 68000 will brand the SAM as a poor man's amiga (er, except it will probably cost more than an amiga). Has anyone heard about MISC chips - there's one called the MuP21 designed by Chuck Moore (the chap who wrote FORTH). MISC is an extreme version of RISC - Minimal Instruction Set Computing. In fact it only has 21 instructions - and that's actual instructions, not instruction-types. A Mup21 costs about $25 in single units. It runs at 100 Mips, I think, and the whole device is only 7000 transistors. AND - this may come as a bit of a surprise considering the low transistor count - the MuP21 has a built in video generator! Only 8-colour, but ideal for a monitor display when de-bugging! I'll post the URL where you can get more info, when I dig it out. Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:09 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:31:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: SRAM/Z380 Flash memory Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1030 Lines: 28 Hi gang, Like I said before, I'd check the specs for AMD's Flash EPROMS from my databook. Here's a quick overview:- Am29F010 This one's a 1megabit chip (128Kbits by 8. spilt upinto 16Kbyte sectors. each sector seperately erasable/programmable) It comes in a number of flavours: The usual DIP, SO, and PLCC. Number of speeds: 45, 55, 70, 90, 120 nanoseconds access time. Both the supply and programming voltage is 5v so no need for the usual 12.5volts. Farnell (well, Farnell Electronic {bad, in my experience} Services) doesn't sell the 45 nanosecond variety. The 55ns is 10.47uks and the 120ns is 8.24uks (+vat of course) -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:09 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:37:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1737 Lines: 54 Can I please counter that plea? Teledisk is the only way that I can make SAM disks which will load into SimCoupe on my PC due to the FDD controller problem. By the way, I have had a lot of difficulty with one of the compression formats (it isn't PAK - it's the other one (I forget the name)). What decrompression software do I need? I thought I found it on FTP a while ago, but it never seems to work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Fulton (D.A.Fulton@durham.ac.uk) Trevelyan College, University of Durham. http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d60m3c/index.html PGP public key available on request. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Stewart Skardon wrote: > On Tue 11 Mar 97 (18:54:27), j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk wrote: > > >I've got 13 issues of SAM2SAM which I can teledisk down and upload to > >the FTP if people would like, but I need to know how to do so. > > > > Can I make a plea? PLEASE don't use teledisc. What about those of us e.g me, > who aren't using a PC, but want to look at half the stuff on the FTP site? > > Can't we use something like ZIP files, at least they work correctly, unlike > Teledisc, which I've heard hangs up on loads of machines. > > >Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) > >JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) > >"They call me Mad The Swine." > > > > > > Stewart > -- > _ > (_`tewart sskardon@argonet.co.uk > ,_) kardon http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/mind.html > > Crashed WWW Site - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon > > NSSS Web Site - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/nsss.html > > > > > From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:09 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:38:41 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Andrew's program idea. References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 746 Lines: 20 > Trouble is I have no idea how Teledisk files are arranged. It also > probably uses something like ZIP compression which I wouldn't, I'd use the > MNEMOcompress algorithm because I've already written that and got it > working. Fair enough. We'd just have to find someone with the time to de- teledisk everything and re-do it with your prog. But please DO WRITE THIS PROGRAM! -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:09 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:40:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: New Computer Project.- FORWARDED In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970312120327.00a3eaf0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 729 Lines: 16 On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > >educational/hobbyist computer system, designed along modular grounds (maybe > >rack-mounted, S-100 like)? It would offer hobbyists and students the chance Isn't the S100 only designed to work with clockspeeds around 2MHz? Oh. wait a minute.. He's not suggesting using th S100.. Oh ermm.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:09 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:43:03 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Andrew's program idea. - Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 440 Lines: 13 > Trouble is I have no idea how Teledisk files are arranged. It also > probably uses something like ZIP compression which I wouldn't, I'd use the > MNEMOcompress algorithm because I've already written that and got it > working. Just out of interest, how do you build/decompress a disc image that when compressed is over 500k without having a Meg to hold the image? I imagine it would have to split the disc image into two halves. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:11 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:45:39 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313054538_1881523776@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 918 Lines: 18 The SAM_CLOCK has, as some of you will already know, suffered a minor delay, caused I'm sorry to say in part by the arguments on this list. The original idea was to have the SAM_CLOCK, the SRAM Card and a Buffer board run at the same time so as to maximize the use of the PCB and save money. I had expected (at the time the SAM_CLOCK was announced) that the design of the SRAM card would have been finalised by Christmas at the very latest and that the boards could therefore have been produced during January. However, due to the almost complete lack of co-operation from members of this list this has not happened. Therefore, in order to save costs, the SAM_CLOCK board is currently being relaid to enable a different PCB company to do the work. I would hope that the new design will be in the hands of the PCB company by the end of next week and that the boards will come through quite quickly thereafter. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:12 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:45:36 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313054535_1748277835@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1879 Lines: 55 In a message dated 12/03/97 23:39:25, you write: >On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >> >What project should be developed first? >> > >> >1) A Sam-based (SRAM or etc) board, with no future Z380 expandability >> >> This is one that can be started right away. The hardwares been designed. > >So is that the one you'd vote for? We want to know what sam-users *want*, >not necessarily what you think is easiest to do. It is not a matter of what SAM users want - it is a matter of what is needed to carry the project forward in logical stages. Please remember that each add-on to SAM must provide something that is usable as well as something that moves the project forward or provides a necessary intermediate stage in the project. The SRAM card is just such a _necessary_ intermediate stage. Once we have it then programmers can get moving on the Z80 side of thing, and develop some of the things that the next stage (which at the moment could be either the 2nd processor card (Z380 or otherwise) or the new graphics card) requires. > >> >2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability >> >> This one can't be done until after item 3. > >Says you. I would think that anyone who understands what is involved would say the same. How can you design an interface for a processor board that does not even exist yet - even in rough design. > >But read the question. If the option (3) is chosen and built, there will >be no place for the SRAM card _as such_ - note I was careful to include >the onboard memory in the description. A bad place to put it. > >> >3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> A big step, do we have the ability to take this big a project on, this >> early in the day? > >Probably. :-) > > > >Andrew Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:13 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:45:34 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313054534_1714718795@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2047 Lines: 46 In a message dated 12/03/97 22:33:46, you write: >On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > > >> But as has been pointed out before, to do _anything_ Z380 you gorra design >> the Z380 board first. We can't wait that long, we need to make some >> progress /now/. > >Pointed out by whom other than yourself? Anyway, your first conjecture is >not true. I don't think the Z380 board would need to be rigourously >planned, but some thought will be required to modify the current SRAM >board design to take account of the existance of the Z380. Sorry, but anyone with even a little bit of hardware experiance can see the hole in that logic. The Z380 will need to be at least at the prototype stage to allow for the design of the interconnecting bus. I admit it could be done just from theory, but get it wrong and its a waste of time and effort. > >I notice that, so far, the number of votes for option (1) seem to indicate >that, despite being perhaps the most quickest initial project, it would >not be very popular (read: successful) among Sam-users as a whole, so will >not be the most worthwhile. You may not consider it worthwile, but that just goes to show your lack of understanding of how the project need to develop. I do not consider the SAM(Z80) SRAM card will be a big seller to start with, but as redevelopment of the ROM/DOS/HDOS progresses many more 'typical' SAM users will be attracted. And we cannot get away from the one simple fact - IT HAS TO BE THE FIRST STEP. > >Please don't underestimate the talent of some of the people on this list. >Much of the design groundwork behind an option (3) has already been done, >I don't think the Z380 is so far away. And before you ask, yes I would be >prepared to pay more for the board, given that it will actually do >something useful. Don't overestimate the talent of some of the people on this list. Most of the design groundwork behind option (3) has not already been done. I think the Z380 is a very long way away as a commercially viable product. > > >Andrew Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:26 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:45:38 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313054537_1814419528@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: MAILFEED PROBLEMS Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 271 Lines: 6 Sorry folks, but AOL's email system is playing up on me at the moment and I know that not everything is getting through. I have arranged for most of the missing items to be forwarded at the weekend and I will catch up on the backlog on Sunday if all goes to plan. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:27 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:45:40 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313054539_1915081021@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: HERE WE GO! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1120 Lines: 26 Right, the time for arguments is over. Here is the course that I now propose to take to futher the SAMSON project. If we don't get started now then I'm certain we will never get started. OK. First the SRAM cards, which are the first, and ESSENTIAL, step on the long road to a possible SON-OF-SAM, I am going to look at a cheaper way of producing about 10 boards for the early development work. I would hope that these should be ready in about a month to six weeks. The source code exists for both the ROM and for MasterDOS but it will need converting into COMET format. I say COMET because I've agreed with Frank that I will issue a copy of COMET to anyone working on the ROM/DOS consolidation project if they don't already have it. The first target will be to move the ROM into SRAM and start to move the patches in MasterDOS into the ROM area. Next task will be to move MasterDOS into the SRAM. Not so easy but it will have to be done. And then the fun can really start. Trying to remove the duplication that exists within the ROM/DOS and HDOS so that all can use the same block of code for the same task. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 10:56:27 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:51:37 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 Message-Id: <19970313105151Z49201-248+176@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 743 Lines: 24 Date: 1997-03-13 10:53 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Andrew Collier >To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no >Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 > >On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > >> My vote would be for something that is achievable. Just imagin the buzz to >> be had by finishing something and making it available to other SAM users. > >Just think of the buzz you'll get when you show the average Sam user an >option(1) SRAM board and they say; "Well, yeah, of course it sounds >great... What, it costs how much? So what can it do? Yes....? Well, Um... >Perhaps next time. Bye then." > here we go again. vicious circle iteration No 3 Nev. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 11:02:20 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970313105324.00924100@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:53:24 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <970313054535_1748277835@emout14.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 408 Lines: 11 At 05:45 AM 3/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >I would think that anyone who understands what is involved would say the >same. How can you design an interface for a processor board that does not >even exist yet - even in rough design. Tis not difficult... we know we have to support the existing signal lines, and we know we have another 32 pins to play with - which can be allocated to Z380 specific ones. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 11:02:20 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970313105551.00922370@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:55:51 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: HERE WE GO! In-Reply-To: <970313054539_1915081021@emout19.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1016 Lines: 28 >The source code exists for both the ROM and for MasterDOS but it will need >converting into COMET format. I say COMET because I've agreed with Frank that >I will issue a copy of COMET to anyone working on the ROM/DOS consolidation >project if they don't already have it. Getting the ROM source into COMET format may be difficult -- for a start, it might not fit into the SAM's memory :) COMET-2-ASCII (which I wrote) will, however, do this job nicely -- it's one of the reasons I wrote it. I already have MasterDOS in COMET Format. >The first target will be to move the ROM into SRAM and start to move the >patches in MasterDOS into the ROM area. > >Next task will be to move MasterDOS into the SRAM. Not so easy but it will >have to be done. > >And then the fun can really start. Trying to remove the duplication that >exists within the ROM/DOS and HDOS so that all can use the same block of code >for the same task. Wouldn't it be better to design the DOS first, and the API interface that it needs? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 12:21:37 1997 From: Stephen Harding Message-Id: <199703131210.MAA19208@BITS.bris.ac.uk> Subject: Re: HERE WE GO! To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (sam users) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:10:43 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1795 Lines: 48 > Wouldn't it be better to design the DOS first, and the API interface > that it needs? > > Simon Yes, I could not agree more. I would suggest building the whole systerm from the bottom up. Once the DOS is completed and patched into the current system (if desirable) we could start work on similar 'OS modules' such as providing a similar interface for the keyboard device. Later on we could progress onto giving the Floating point calculator an interface consistant with the others, develop the NOS etc... Then BASIC and the GUI could be written to string these things together. I know that the idea of comprehensive drivers sounds like a very 'PC' one, but if we want out programs to work with either a SAM keyboard or a IBM compatable one without a complete re-write later on... Do we intend to build the fundamental OS building blocks with physical device independant structures? i.e. following the types similar to thoes suggested some time ago: Memory Allocation OS module; Directory based File storage and retrieval; Directory-less file storage and retrieval; Key and curour input; Floating point calculator; File processing; Strict output (i.e. the 'card) In this case the interface used by the DOS would be identical to the one used by the Network module (i.e. Directory based S and R) I think we should discuss the question of the final location for the DOS, HDOS, NOS (Network protocol stack) etc... Should the DOS and HDOS remain connected to the system via the Z80? Via a DMA chanel controlled by the Z80? If this is the case we need ever only write a Z80 version of the DOS. The same question is valid to all other modules, e.g. as to whether the mouse input should come via the 'card Obviously it will depend on the hardware archetecture we go for. Numbly. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 12:21:38 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. References: <970313054538_1881523776@emout18.mail.aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Uncle Bulgaria Date: 13 Mar 1997 12:14:29 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR@aol.com's message of Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:45:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1770 Lines: 37 BrenchleyR@aol.com writes: > The SAM_CLOCK has, as some of you will already know, suffered a > minor delay, caused I'm sorry to say in part by the arguments on > this list. I don't remember this, maybe I wasn't around, or maybe it was between me unsubbing last time, and resubbing ... > The original idea was to have the SAM_CLOCK, the SRAM Card and a > Buffer board run at the same time so as to maximize the use of the > PCB and save money. I had expected (at the time the SAM_CLOCK was > announced) that the design of the SRAM card would have been > finalised by Christmas at the very latest and that the boards could > therefore have been produced during January. > > However, due to the almost complete lack of co-operation from > members of this list this has not happened. Therefore, in order to > save costs, the SAM_CLOCK board is currently being relaid to enable > a different PCB company to do the work. I would hope that the new > design will be in the hands of the PCB company by the end of next > week and that the boards will come through quite quickly thereafter. I'm not trying to be nasty but this seems to strike me as odd. How did arguments on this list delay the project? From what I've seen over the past few months (And I'm sorry to drag this up _again_ ...) you don't seem to listen to any of the 'discussions' that take place here anyway. Presumably the clock was a FORMAT project so why not go ahead since you're the boss of FORMAT, and you don't need our permission to start something ? -- With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. [ftp://sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/rfc/rfc1925.txt.gz] From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 12:50:48 1997 From: Johnna Teare Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:38:57 GMT+0 Subject: Re: HERE WE GO! X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <229B68F284C@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 611 Lines: 22 > Right, the time for arguments is over. > > Here is the course that I now propose to take to futher the SAMSON project. > If we don't get started now then I'm certain we will never get started. > [edited bit about the SAM SRAM project] > And then the fun can really start. Trying to remove the duplication that > exists within the ROM/DOS and HDOS so that all can use the same block of code > for the same task. > > Bob. **Johnna sighs** Guess the voting is closed now then eh? > Johnna Pig Teare (JohnnaPig@deathsdoor.com) JohnnaPig OnLine (www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna) "They call me Mad The Swine." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 13:38:09 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:09:43 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Look, I changed the subject again. In-reply-to: <970313054534_1714718795@emout13.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 624 Lines: 16 > Don't overestimate the talent of some of the people on this list. Most of the > design groundwork behind option (3) has not already been done. I think the > Z380 is a very long way away as a commercially viable product. Fine then VOTE for option 2 then. -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 14:01:48 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:19:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: SAM users list Subject: Hmm.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 455 Lines: 9 I'm having problems getting my mail through... Anyone else? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 14:23:31 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:21:28 +0000 Subject: Re: Andrew's program idea. - Reply X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <2462E114AC4@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1991 Lines: 55 > > Trouble is I have no idea how Teledisk files are arranged. It also > > probably uses something like ZIP compression which I wouldn't, I'd use the > > MNEMOcompress algorithm because I've already written that and got it > > working. > > Just out of interest, how do you build/decompress a disc image that when compressed > is over 500k without having a Meg to hold the image? > > I imagine it would have to split the disc image into two halves. Hmmm, s'easy: First pass through the disc: build up in memory a table (simply) that for every byte value (0-255) has a corresponding binary string (of variable length). This takes up a fairly minimal amount of memory. (yes folks, it's Huffman time again) Second pass: write out the data to the *OTHER* disc drive! What do you mean you only have one drive? Ok: yes, split the disc image into a few chunks. Two's good I guess, but remember kids: I still only have 256K on the old cogs so be friendly. What I'd do is first pass: as before Second pass: build (into memory) yer compressed code and !STOP! when you're full (512K or 256K - whatever the machine has, not what the programmer decides!). Swap discs and spit out thoroughly, then swap back again. Repeat pass 2 until yer done. A mess, but tough. Huffman compressing is dead nice and you'd probably get a discful into 512K. However, can you not use the hard drive? (for those who have them, of course) (I don't, but I'm just saying) NB: ignore whatever I say as I think I've abandoned the SAM stuff now. nothing's getting anywhere, and I never got round to buying that assembler, or writing my own... so I think I'm a PC kid from now on. Ciao. --dave-- ADVERTISEMENT---- | Holy Cheesus! Cheese flavored potato balls snack! From the makers of Schmilk - the surprising alternative to milk! | ------------+ eat my face: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5636/ drink my beer: http://yi.com/home/HooperDave/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 14:44:04 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <16263.199703131425@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:25:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199703121456.OAA19446@BITS.bris.ac.uk> from "Stephen Harding" at Mar 12, 97 02:56:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 160 Lines: 7 > Although option 2 would be acceptable if we can get our heads around the > forward planning.. Not a very good track record so far though, have we? :( Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 14:44:05 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <16983.199703131431@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: HERE WE GO! To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:30:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970313054539_1915081021@emout19.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Mar 13, 97 05:45:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 187 Lines: 7 > I will issue a copy of COMET to anyone working on the ROM/DOS consolidation > project if they don't already have it. Just out of interest, have you asked the author about this? Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 14:44:06 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <17244.199703131433@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:32:38 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970313054535_1748277835@emout14.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Mar 13, 97 05:45:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 439 Lines: 14 > The SRAM card is just such a _necessary_ intermediate stage. Once we have That's fine, as long as you don't expect people to actually /buy/ the thing... > same. How can you design an interface for a processor board that does not > even exist yet - even in rough design. How do you design program interfaces for modules which haven't been written yet? Same principle - you know what it's going to do, you know the outputs... Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 14:44:07 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:37:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Andrew's program idea. - Reply In-Reply-To: <2462E114AC4@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 846 Lines: 17 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > NB: ignore whatever I say as I think I've abandoned the SAM stuff > now. nothing's getting anywhere, and I never got round to buying that > assembler, or writing my own... so I think I'm a PC kid from now on. Oh, I was a PC kid for a few years after throwing my SAM into the loft. But starting up digital electronics as a hobby (don't ask me how I started it) brought it back down into my heart again.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 14:44:09 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <17835.199703131437@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:37:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <970313054534_1714718795@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Mar 13, 97 05:45:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 418 Lines: 13 > attracted. And we cannot get away from the one simple fact - IT HAS TO BE THE > FIRST STEP. Fine - so stop waffling, and build the damn thing. > Don't overestimate the talent of some of the people on this list. Most of the > design groundwork behind option (3) has not already been done. I think the > Z380 is a very long way away as a commercially viable product. Have you seen all Simon's work, then...? Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 15:00:37 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <19158.199703131446@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:46:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9703130621.AA00404@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Mar 13, 97 07:21:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 135 Lines: 7 > Teledisk was at the time the only utility which could copy an entire > disk raw. Not /entirely/ true, but close enough.. :) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 15:00:37 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <20203.199703131451@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:51:04 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199703121642.QAA05701@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Mar 12, 97 04:42:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 326 Lines: 10 > >> 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory > >'dat one, please. > Got lots of money to spare??? a) They asked what we wanted, not what we thought was practical b) do you have the time/money/talent to help build the SRAM from scratch when a fair amount of the Z380 board is already done? Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 15:10:35 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:10:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. In-Reply-To: <970313054538_1881523776@emout18.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1210 Lines: 23 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > The original idea was to have the SAM_CLOCK, the SRAM Card and a Buffer board > run at the same time so as to maximize the use of the PCB and save money. I > had expected (at the time the SAM_CLOCK was announced) that the design of the > SRAM card would have been finalised by Christmas at the very latest and that > the boards could therefore have been produced during January. Err. Why not include the SAM_Clock, SRAM, and a programmable timer on one board. At least then it would be worth buying, in my view. After all, the clock and timer are really only one chip each (not including the addressing logic). You can't say THAT'S out of our abilities, Samsboss and Bob!!!! And I'll probably buy one since I was intending on building one such thing myself... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 15:10:36 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:15:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1035 Lines: 23 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Dave wrote: > Can I please counter that plea? > > Teledisk is the only way that I can make SAM disks which will load into > SimCoupe on my PC due to the FDD controller problem. > > By the way, I have had a lot of difficulty with one of the compression > formats (it isn't PAK - it's the other one (I forget the name)). What > decrompression software do I need? I thought I found it on FTP a while > ago, but it never seems to work. Don't you load the .pak file into address 32000, and then call 32000. It should (after a little while) say something 'Insert the disk', press a key and it does it automatically.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 15:15:51 1997 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:11:49 +0000 From: Dan Doore To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP - Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 524 Lines: 15 > By the way, I have had a lot of difficulty with one of the compression > formats (it isn't PAK - it's the other one (I forget the name)). What > decrompression software do I need? I thought I found it on FTP a while > ago, but it never seems to work. This could be the LIB format which was *never* worked on mine, it's worse than compressed PAK! The LIBRARY program can be found in the utilities disc (utils.td0???) on NVG. There was another one too - some sort of encoded BASIC file but I forget what it was. Dan. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 15:40:36 1997 From: James R Curry Organization: De Montfort University To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:32:03 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: HERE WE GO! In-reply-to: <229B68F284C@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 659 Lines: 18 > Guess the voting is closed now then eh? As far as I'm concerned, the voting is open until 15:00pm next Wensday, at which point I will announce the result, and hopefully the Hardware Experts among us will take some notice. Whatever debate is going on right now, the VOTE IS STILL OPEN!! -- James R Curry hc95jc@dmu.ac.uk "When Marge first told me she was going to the police academy, I thought it'd be fun and exciting, you know, like that movie, 'Spaceballs'. But instead it's been painful and disturbing like that movie 'Police Academy'." - Homer Simpson, the Simpsons. The official James R Curry web page is under construction! Stand by. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 15:40:36 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:38:51 +0000 Subject: Re: Andrew's program idea. - Reply X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <247787E65A8@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 822 Lines: 19 > Oh, I was a PC kid for a few years after throwing my SAM into the loft. > But starting up digital electronics as a hobby (don't ask me how I > started it) brought it back down into my heart again.. you put your SAM into the loft? No, I'd just leave mine on my desk getting dusty there, at least I can clean it that way. Actually, it might go loftwards soon, pity. At least until I take up a hobby. (discdrive repairs for example) --dave-- ADVERTISEMENT---- | Holy Cheesus! Cheese flavored potato balls snack! From the makers of Schmilk - the surprising alternative to milk! | ------------+ eat my face: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5636/ drink my beer: http://yi.com/home/HooperDave/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 16:13:43 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970313160018.00923210@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:00:18 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: HERE WE GO! In-Reply-To: <16983.199703131431@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> References: <970313054539_1915081021@emout19.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 319 Lines: 13 At 02:30 PM 3/13/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: O > > >> I will issue a copy of COMET to anyone working on the ROM/DOS consolidation >> project if they don't already have it. > >Just out of interest, have you asked the author about this? SAMCo bought the rights to it lock, stock and barrel - it's no problem. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 16:13:43 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970313160123.00928900@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:01:23 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. In-Reply-To: References: <970313054538_1881523776@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 372 Lines: 11 At 11:10 AM 3/13/97 +0000, you wrote: >Err. Why not include the SAM_Clock, SRAM, and a programmable timer >on one board. At least then it would be worth buying, in my view. After >all, the clock and timer are really only one chip each (not including the >addressing logic). The programmable timer is already present on the COMMS interface... Check the docs :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 16:41:19 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: Mup21 MISC chip To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:33:36 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970312120327.00a3eaf0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Mar 12, 97 12:03:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 73 Lines: 4 If anyone was interested, here's that link: http://www.dnai.com/~jfox/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 17:00:20 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:53:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Andrew's program idea. - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 793 Lines: 19 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Dan Doore wrote: > Just out of interest, how do you build/decompress a disc image that when compressed > is over 500k without having a Meg to hold the image? > > I imagine it would have to split the disc image into two halves. Probably something like that, yes. Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 17:15:47 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:04:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970313160123.00928900@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 576 Lines: 14 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > The programmable timer is already present on the COMMS interface... Check > the docs :) And since I don't have the COMMS interface...... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 17:55:39 1997 Message-Id: From: ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk (Andrew M Gale) Subject: z380 voting To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:45:22 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970312120327.00a3eaf0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Mar 12, 97 12:03:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 303 Lines: 10 TRhis voting on the z380 is all a bit pointless until we know more about it. Yes, it may be z80 binary compatible, but we need to know more about it before we can say how realistic it is that wel'll be able to produce a decent architecture at a reasonable price. Any news on the databooks, Bob? Andy From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 17:55:39 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:50:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@indigo.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <970313054535_1748277835@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4864 Lines: 111 On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > >Ah - but according to Bob, this isn't a voting thing. It appears to be >his decision or nothing... On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > It is not a matter of what SAM users want QED > - it is a matter of what is needed > to carry the project forward in logical stages. Please remember that each > add-on to SAM must provide something that is usable as well as something > that moves the project forward or provides a necessary intermediate stage in > the project. The option(1) SRAM board does not fulfil this requirement. You keep telling me it has nothing to do with SamSon. > The SRAM card is just such a _necessary_ intermediate stage. Once we have > it then programmers can get moving on the Z80 side of thing, and develop some > of the things that the next stage (which at the moment could be either the > 2nd processor card (Z380 or otherwise) or the new graphics card) requires. An option(2) SRAM card would fit the bill, but you seem to be holding out for your own way, yet again. If you really do know as much about programming as you claim to, why do you continue to insist the programmers should start writing the Samson code before even the final processor is available?! It is very difficult to do anything worthwhile in machine code without knowing what the very specifications are. I have said it before, and you can go back to read the logs because I'm sick and tired of having to retype things time and time again before you even think about paying the slightest bit of attention. You have, at times, totally ignored all points of view other than your own, and been very rude about it in the process. You attack people and projects personally, but appear to have at best a very sketchy knowledge of the topics on which you claim to be an expert. You treat this list as a property, as if we are only here to grant your every whim: THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS. You are, essentially, no different to any other subscriber here, by no authority can you expect your word to be taken as law. You edit Format magazine, so what? There are an overwhelming number of "famous names" on this list, either by connections with some magazine, by writing programs, by designing hardware, or by some combination of the three. In short; you get one vote, just like everybody else. > >> >2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability > >> This one can't be done until after item 3. > >Says you. > I would think that anyone who understands what is involved would say the > same. How can you design an interface for a processor board that does not > even exist yet - even in rough design. Well, it seems that Simon Cooke disagreed, and given that he's been involved in the accelerator prototype, I would guess that he understands exactly what is involved. Bob, I think I would get less annoyed with you if you said things like "I think ..." as opposed to "Everybody who is not in an advanced state of mental decay, should think ...". Particularly when your comment is so obviously way off the mark. > >But read the question. If the option (3) is chosen and built, there will > >be no place for the SRAM card _as such_ - note I was careful to include > >the onboard memory in the description. > > A bad place to put it. At first I accepted your "future-proof" argument as being almost sensible. But now you seem to have become so obsessed with the "Sam SRAM card" idea, that you have lost any ideas about where this project is supposed to be heading. You may want the memory to be completely separated from the processor, so you can vote for the relevant option. Others may see no reason why the two should be separated, indeed they may see very good reasons for keeping them together. That's why people are getting the chance to vote. And on a public list like this, you've frankly got no reason or right to stop them. > >> A big step, do we have the ability to take this big a project on, this > >> early in the day? > >Probably. > > :-) Meaning? Seems rather like you're avoiding the issue. Either that or the smiley represents how happy you are at the prospect of the Z380 card... Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ PS. Sorry if parts of the above message sound like a personal attack, but considering some of the stuff you've said over the past few days, I really don't care. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 18:09:39 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: sskardon@argonet.co.uk (Stewart Skardon) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 16:54:17 X-Mailer: VTi Internet Email reader 1.09 : aa Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 760 Lines: 41 On 12 Mar 97 (21:38:51), Dave Whitmore wrote: >In a message of 11 Mar 97 Stewart Skardon wrote to >sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no: > >Hi Stewart, > Hi Dave. [SNIP] >How can we zip/unzip disks on SAM? Not on SAM. I thought the AMIGA had a ZIP file reader, and the Archie does. > >BTW, can you read from and write to SAM disks on the archie? > Erm, if I wrote a program, yes. Too lazy to do it though! :-) >Bye, > >Dave Whitmore > > Bye. Stewart. BTW, have you checked out the Web Site? -- _ (_`tewart sskardon@argonet.co.uk ,_) kardon http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/mind.html Crashed WWW Site - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon NSSS Web Site - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/nsss.html From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 18:09:39 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <11792.199703131801@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:01:29 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Mar 13, 97 05:50:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1045 Lines: 28 > >Ah - but according to Bob, this isn't a voting thing. It appears to be > >his decision or nothing... > > It is not a matter of what SAM users want :) nice piece of cutting there > You treat this list as a property, as if we are only here to grant your > every whim: THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS. You are, essentially, no different Seconded... > be taken as law. You edit Format magazine, so what? There are an > overwhelming number of "famous names" on this list, either by connections > with some magazine, by writing programs, by designing hardware, or by some I'd go for Simon Cooke as the most influential, TBH - certainly to me at least. > processor, so you can vote for the relevant option. Others may see no > reason why the two should be separated, indeed they may see very good > reasons for keeping them together. That's why people are getting the Speed increase, for one. And seeing as speed is what this is all about... If necessaru, can't it be changed later so that the onboard acts as a cache? Just a wild thought. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 18:09:39 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:11:56 +0000 Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <24A05E85FD2@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 853 Lines: 24 > > processor, so you can vote for the relevant option. Others may see no > > reason why the two should be separated, indeed they may see very good > > reasons for keeping them together. That's why people are getting the > > Speed increase, for one. And seeing as speed is what this is all about... > If necessaru, can't it be changed later so that the onboard acts as a > cache? Just a wild thought. Could you maybe make one of each, and see which works best? Or is that just stupid? Sorry, I mean, economically unviable. 8-0 --dave-- ADVERTISEMENT---- | Holy Cheesus! Cheese flavored potato balls snack! From the makers of Schmilk - the surprising alternative to milk! | ------------+ eat my face: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5636/ drink my beer: http://yi.com/home/HooperDave/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 18:17:14 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <12979.199703131810@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:10:48 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <24A05E85FD2@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Mar 13, 97 06:11:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 207 Lines: 8 > Could you maybe make one of each, and see which works best? > Or is that just stupid? > Sorry, I mean, economically unviable. 8-0 I've no idea - depends on whether the builder is willing, I guess. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 19:15:50 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:06:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1798 Lines: 39 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Andrew Collier wrote: > You treat this list as a property, as if we are only here to grant your > every whim: THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS. You are, essentially, no different > to any other subscriber here, by no authority can you expect your word to > be taken as law. You edit Format magazine, so what? There are an > overwhelming number of "famous names" on this list, either by connections > with some magazine, by writing programs, by designing hardware, or by some > combination of the three. Uh-oh - Flame possibilty.... From me aswell... Eeek.. And I was complaining about these, aswell. Has anyone noticed the simalarity between SAM/FormatPublishing and PC/Microsoft??? Bill Gates and Co doesn't like anything that the rest of the PC world are doing. Microsoft HAVE to do things their own way. Look at the Java/Active-X arguments.. We HAVE to do things their way or they'll sue us. Although they feel they are right, they're holding back the PC by years... Bob, Samsboss and Co doesn't like anything that the rest of the SAM world want (we can't say doing). They HAVE to do things their own way. Look at the Z380/SRAM aurguments.. We HAVE to do things their way or they'll flame us. Although they feel they are right, they're.................... I think you know what I'm getting at... Now, where did I put my NBC suit? I'm expecting a barrel full of flames.. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 19:15:50 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:11:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Mup21 MISC chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 538 Lines: 15 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Andrew M Gale wrote: > If anyone was interested, here's that link: > > http://www.dnai.com/~jfox/ Interesting chip.... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 19:25:28 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:18:36 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313141836_1714770816@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 737 Lines: 19 In a message dated 13/03/97 11:02:42, you write: >At 05:45 AM 3/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >>I would think that anyone who understands what is involved would say the >>same. How can you design an interface for a processor board that does not >>even exist yet - even in rough design. > >Tis not difficult... we know we have to support the existing signal lines, >and we know we have another 32 pins to play with - which can be allocated >to Z380 specific ones. > >Simon Not really as easy as that. However, if we can have a chat one evening it may be easier to find some common ground and a lot less time consuming than arguing to and thro via email. Just give me a ring one day from work and we will fix it up for me to ring you. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 19:25:28 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:18:41 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313141839_1915133952@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 625 Lines: 14 In a message dated 13/03/97 12:34:39, you write: >I'm not trying to be nasty but this seems to strike me as odd. How did >arguments on this list delay the project? From what I've seen over >the past few months (And I'm sorry to drag this up _again_ ...) you >don't seem to listen to any of the 'discussions' that take place here >anyway. Presumably the clock was a FORMAT project so why not go ahead >since you're the boss of FORMAT, and you don't need our permission to >start something ? Because to get the best price it would have been nice to do the Clock, SRAM, Buffer and a couple of other things all at one. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 19:25:28 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:18:43 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313141843_-1940256384@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1507 Lines: 29 In a message dated 13/03/97 12:34:39, you write: >I'm not trying to be nasty but this seems to strike me as odd. How did >arguments on this list delay the project? From what I've seen over >the past few months (And I'm sorry to drag this up _again_ ...) you >don't seem to listen to any of the 'discussions' that take place here >anyway. Presumably the clock was a FORMAT project so why not go ahead >since you're the boss of FORMAT, and you don't need our permission to >start something ? Sorry Uncle B. Did I not make it clear. Ok, it works like this. The cost of a PCB is related to its size and the number you want run off. If I had been able to put, say for the sake of argument, 3 boards in to be done at the same time there would still be only one set-up charge. If, say 2 of each fitted onto each wafer of PCB matterial then to run 50 of each board needs 25 wafers. That means that the setting up etc is spread over more wafers of PCB matterial s the price comes down. It is also true that the chances of wasted space of the wafer is cut down. The original intention was SAM_CLOCK + SRAM + BUFFER BOARD + Two Others (which I can't talk about). It is sad that the arguments about the SRAM have gone on for so long. It is clear that some people just do not understand what is involved. But now, with fewer SRAM boards being needed than I at first thought, there is no ecconomic way of doing them through the PCB company - they would probably cost around 15 to 20 pound per board that way. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 19:25:28 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:18:45 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970313141841_-2040919936@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: HERE WE GO! Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 298 Lines: 13 In a message dated 13/03/97 14:43:26, you write: >> I will issue a copy of COMET to anyone working on the ROM/DOS consolidation >> project if they don't already have it. > >Just out of interest, have you asked the author about this? > >Paul The author sold the program out-right to Samco. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 19:33:45 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:29:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Mup21 MISC chip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1030 Lines: 28 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Justin Skists wrote: > On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Andrew M Gale wrote: > > > If anyone was interested, here's that link: > > > > http://www.dnai.com/~jfox/ > > Interesting chip.... Oops.. Forgot to add this bit onto the above:- To tell you the truth, my money is still on Z380. If it's anything like what I've read about the Z180, it'll have serial communications and programmable timers inbuilt.. It may not be exciting with you, but it's good enough to me.. Hey, if we can get the Z380 and Z80 working codependantly, why not make things more interesting by adding a MuP21 and, to keep me happy, a 68HC11... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 20:27:16 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:23:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@aether.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Andrew's program idea. - Reply In-Reply-To: <247787E65A8@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 601 Lines: 16 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > > you put your SAM into the loft? > Yep. Tied up in her little box not really wanted anymore. -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 20:40:21 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: James Curry .... X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Uncle Bulgaria Date: 13 Mar 1997 20:35:18 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 408 Lines: 13 James in his furry and infinite wisdom wrote : > Subject: Re: Look, I changed the subject again. yeah, and it really screws my threading so don't ... Lee. -- With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. [ftp://sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/rfc/rfc1925.txt.gz] From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 20:53:00 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. References: <970313141839_1915133952@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Uncle Bulgaria Date: 13 Mar 1997 20:44:10 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR@aol.com's message of Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:18:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1260 Lines: 28 BrenchleyR@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 13/03/97 12:34:39, you write: > > >I'm not trying to be nasty but this seems to strike me as odd. How did > >arguments on this list delay the project? From what I've seen over > >the past few months (And I'm sorry to drag this up _again_ ...) you > >don't seem to listen to any of the 'discussions' that take place here > >anyway. Presumably the clock was a FORMAT project so why not go ahead > >since you're the boss of FORMAT, and you don't need our permission to > >start something ? > > Because to get the best price it would have been nice to do the Clock, SRAM, > Buffer and a couple of other things all at one. > So why didn't you? Surely you don't need our permission, if you'd wanted to do it and were convinced it was the right thing to do then surely you should have gone ahead and done it and proved us all wrong, or are you not too sure that it _is_ the right idea, but you're just too proud to admit that you might have been wrong ... Lee. -- With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. [ftp://sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/rfc/rfc1925.txt.gz] From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 23:32:22 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:26:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@blue.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 In-Reply-To: <970313054534_1714718795@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3055 Lines: 65 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >I notice that, so far, the number of votes for option (1) seem to indicate > >that, despite being perhaps the most quickest initial project, it would > >not be very popular (read: successful) among Sam-users as a whole, so will > >not be the most worthwhile. > > You may not consider it worthwile, but that just goes to show your lack of > understanding of how the project need to develop. I do not consider the Is this a Sam-users project, or a Bob Brenchley project? I think it will develop how Sam-users think it should go best. If nobody thinks a type(1) SRAM card is worthwhile, I think most developers are probably more likely to concentrate on a type(2) or even a type(3) Z380 card. > SAM(Z80) SRAM card will be a big seller to start with, but as redevelopment > of the ROM/DOS/HDOS progresses many more 'typical' SAM users will be > attracted. And we cannot get away from the one simple fact - IT HAS TO BE THE > FIRST STEP. Please try not to confuse facts with opinions. To say that a type(1) SRAM has to be the first step, would be to express your opinion, not necessarily to state a fact. > >Please don't underestimate the talent of some of the people on this list. > >Much of the design groundwork behind an option (3) has already been done, > >I don't think the Z380 is so far away. And before you ask, yes I would be > >prepared to pay more for the board, given that it will actually do > >something useful. > > Don't overestimate the talent of some of the people on this list. Most of the > design groundwork behind option (3) has not already been done. I think the > Z380 is a very long way away as a commercially viable product. We have heard your opinions on many occassions, but once again you directly contradict everything I say giving no reason whatsoever. Do you feel no need to explain yourself to us, you consider yourself to be above the discussion? You say your type(1) SRAM will not be a big seller, and complain that the first steps must be commencially viable. You seem to display very little knowledge of what Sam users actually want, and have proved this on several occasions. You don't see why an improved processor would be popular; well, to coin a phrase, if you don't want it then you don't have to support it, but I for one can't see any reason why people would want to knock it. Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ PS Well at least that should keep the mails interesting for a few days. I'm off-line from Saturday, and I wannabe controversial. Do you think I've managed it? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 23:48:16 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:27:52 GMT Message-Id: <199703132327.XAA27206@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 359 Lines: 14 On Mar 13, 1997 18:01:29, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: >Speed increase, for one. And seeing as speed is what this is all about... Excuse me, but who said speed is what it is all about? >If necessaru, can't it be changed later so that the onboard acts as a >cache? Just a wild thought. > >Paul -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 23:48:16 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:27:59 GMT Message-Id: <199703132327.XAA27255@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 536 Lines: 21 On Mar 13, 1997 14:51:04, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: > >> >> 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory >> >'dat one, please. >> Got lots of money to spare??? > >a) They asked what we wanted, not what we thought was practical Ah, good, was begining to wonder. >b) do you have the time/money/talent to help build the SRAM from scratch >when a fair amount of the Z380 board is already done? I will order one when they are offered. > >Paul -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 13 23:48:16 1997 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:28:10 GMT Message-Id: <199703132328.XAA27336@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments From: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) Cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-PipeUser: samsboss X-PipeHub: uk.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) X-Mailer: Pipeline v3.5.0 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 669 Lines: 26 On Mar 13, 1997 14:25:30, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: > >> Although option 2 would be acceptable if we can get our heads around the >> forward planning.. > >Not a very good track record so far though, have we? :( > >Paul exactly Paul, so why can't we all agree on something simple for starters? There must be something simple that we can all co-operate on that has a chance of seeing the light of day this side of the millennium. Got it!!!! How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. Just an idea. -- Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 09:05:24 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:00:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@nutmeg.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <199703132328.XAA27336@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 733 Lines: 21 On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com wrote: > Got it!!!! > > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. > > Just an idea. Bloody hell! I was beginning to think there would never be a good idea coming from Samsboss... *wink* -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 09:30:33 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <17005.199703140924@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:24:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199703132327.XAA27255@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Mar 13, 97 11:27:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 214 Lines: 8 > >b) do you have the time/money/talent to help build the SRAM from scratch > >when a fair amount of the Z380 board is already done? > I will order one when they are offered. Not answering the question. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 09:30:44 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <17109.199703140925@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:25:22 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199703132327.XAA27206@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Mar 13, 97 11:27:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 204 Lines: 7 > >Speed increase, for one. And seeing as speed is what this is all about... > Excuse me, but who said speed is what it is all about? Erm ... well if it isn't, why not just stick with the Sam? Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 09:34:32 1997 From: Mr P R Walker Message-Id: <17514.199703140930@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:30:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199703132328.XAA27336@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Mar 13, 97 11:28:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 188 Lines: 8 > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. > Just an idea. Not a bad one at that. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 10:20:15 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:15:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 989 Lines: 30 It was the LIB format (and LCB). Has anyone managed to get it to work? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Fulton (D.A.Fulton@durham.ac.uk) Trevelyan College, University of Durham. http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d60m3c/index.html PGP public key available on request. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Dan Doore wrote: > > By the way, I have had a lot of difficulty with one of the compression > > formats (it isn't PAK - it's the other one (I forget the name)). What > > decrompression software do I need? I thought I found it on FTP a while > > ago, but it never seems to work. > > This could be the LIB format which was *never* worked on mine, it's worse than > compressed PAK! > > The LIBRARY program can be found in the utilities disc (utils.td0???) on NVG. > > There was another one too - some sort of encoded BASIC file but I forget what > it was. > > Dan. > > From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 10:32:23 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:29:53 +0000 Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <25A526A4B21@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 759 Lines: 18 > > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't > > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. > > Just an idea. > > Not a bad one at that. How about getting HD and ED drives to work? Double & quad the disk size. Or am I getting ahead of myself? I was just thinking that a more flexible DOS is needed to get DD and HD disks to both work, so maybe why not build in ED compatibility too? --dave-- ADVERTISEMENT---- | Holy Cheesus! Cheese flavored potato balls snack! From the makers of Schmilk - the surprising alternative to milk! | ------------+ eat my face: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5636/ drink my beer: http://yi.com/home/HooperDave/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 10:51:26 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:45:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Collier X-Sender: asc25@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <17514.199703140930@holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 891 Lines: 23 On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't > > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. > > Just an idea. > > Not a bad one at that. What the software side will involve, is a complete reorganisation of the Sam's directory and file structure. But heck, that needs doing anyway. Andrew +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Second Law Of Thermodynamics: | Andrew Collier, 1A NatSci | | If you think things are in a | email asc25@hermes.cam.ac.uk | | mess now, just you wait.... | Selwyn College, Cambridge | +-------------------------------------+------------------------------+ | Construction work in progress at http://brain.sel.cam.ac.uk/~asc25 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 10:51:36 1997 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments References: <199703132327.XAA27206@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Uncle Bulgaria Date: 14 Mar 1997 10:43:58 +0000 In-Reply-To: samsboss@uk.pipeline.com's message of Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:27:52 GMT Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 596 Lines: 17 samsboss@uk.pipeline.com (Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com) writes: > On Mar 13, 1997 18:01:29, 'Mr P R Walker ' wrote: > > >Speed increase, for one. And seeing as speed is what this is all about... > > Excuse me, but who said speed is what it is all about? > The bigger, faster, better mentality of society today ;) -- With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. [ftp://sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/rfc/rfc1925.txt.gz] From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 11:44:43 1997 From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:07:12 +0000 Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <25AF21C79E3@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 592 Lines: 20 > > Excuse me, but who said speed is what it is all about? > > > > The bigger, faster, better mentality of society today ;) 'Harder, faster!' ... Anyway, what sort of improvements to the SAM could be made, that do not involve any speed increase? --dave-- ADVERTISEMENT---- | Holy Cheesus! Cheese flavored potato balls snack! From the makers of Schmilk - the surprising alternative to milk! | ------------+ eat my face: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5636/ drink my beer: http://yi.com/home/HooperDave/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 11:44:43 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:35:00 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments Message-Id: <19970314123523Z49217-255+1@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 676 Lines: 22 Date: 1997-03-14 11:34 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Andrew Collier >To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no >Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments > >On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > >> >> > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't >> > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. >> > Just an idea. >> >> Not a bad one at that. > >What the software side will involve, is a complete reorganisation of the >Sam's directory and file structure. But heck, that needs doing anyway. > Couldn't you get away with just using 1024byte sectors? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:05 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:42:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Walker X-Sender: csuan@holly To: sam mailing list Subject: Bye Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 371 Lines: 9 It's that time of the term again ... bye, all, until 21st of April or so! Keep me informed of SamSon stuff... --------- Singers, shapers, dreamers, and makers -------------- Any unsolicited commercial emails received will be proofread and returned to source, along with a bill for 150UKP. Sending such emails to my account will be deemed acceptance of these terms. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:06 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:43:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Wells <93tgw@eng.cam.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP - Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 630 Lines: 14 > It was the LIB format (and LCB). Has anyone managed to get it to work? I can't say much about individual items, but to run most of the decompression things, you need to be running Masterdos only. (ie not MBasic as well). (Despite moans about Teledisk, it does work for me much more frequently than any of the other systems that used to be there). A slight aside on Teledisk - I had problems with it, until I realised that if the .td0 file is corrupt, then Teledisk won't touch it with a bargepole (ie if the file was corrupted during download). Once that was sorted, I had no problems on a wide variety of machines. Tim W. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:07 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:35:16 GMT Subject: Re: VOTE : SRAM or Z380 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1F1E93C7F4A@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 613 Lines: 13 > 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard > memory The Z380 card gets my vote but there's sadly little point in discussing this anymore, as Bob as decided that the SRAM board will be first, and nothing seems to change his mind (as usual). I totally agree that the SRAM board will have limited use (both now and in the future if the Z380 card comes out) but as Bob is the one paying for the project, I guess we have to let him go ahead. We've tried convincing him otherwise - it can't be done - so let him get on with it *sigh* Gavin (recovering from flu, and not in the mood to argue) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:07 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:43:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@isidore.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <25A526A4B21@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1205 Lines: 27 On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > > > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't > > > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. > > > Just an idea. > > > > Not a bad one at that. > > How about getting HD and ED drives to work? Double & quad the disk > size. Or am I getting ahead of myself? I was just thinking that a > more flexible DOS is needed to get DD and HD disks to both work, so > maybe why not build in ED compatibility too? Who can actually afford ED disks? The last I heard, they cost about 5uks each. Especially when you are losing a meg on it.. (2.88meg instead of 4meg) And is there any way of squeezing any more data out of the disks aswell? Like actually having almost 2meg on a HD disk rather than just 1.44 or 1.6meg? -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:07 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:44:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@isidore.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 957 Lines: 25 On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Andrew Collier wrote: > On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Mr P R Walker wrote: > > > > > > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't > > > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. > > > Just an idea. > > > > Not a bad one at that. > > What the software side will involve, is a complete reorganisation of the > Sam's directory and file structure. But heck, that needs doing anyway. Which would mean somewhere to put it on and I think I can guess where Samsboss and Bob want the new code..... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:08 1997 From: Gavin Smith Organization: University of Ulster To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:39:19 GMT Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <1F1FA7D0628@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 972 Lines: 16 > > If people think it is worthwhile (so email before Sturday if you think it > > will be), over the holiday I should be able to knock up a Sam version of > > something a bit like Teledisk, which would compress an unprotected (normal > > format) Sam disk into a self-decompacting file; how does that sound? > > YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes, > yes. Yes! Yes. Yes!! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! > Yes! YES! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And a big yes from me too. I've had so much bother downloading from the FTP site, and by the time I get home and find nothing works for a number of reasons, I have now just given up. If everything was compressed in the same format, with the uncompressing program NOT IN SOME OTHER COMPRESSED FORMAT (!) (as on the site at the moment - just how big do you think the program is uncompressed, that you feel the need to compress it?!), then the FTP might actually be of some use. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:08 1997 Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:08:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <199703132328.XAA27336@pipe2.uk.pipeline.com> from "Samsboss@uk.pipeline.com" at Mar 13, 97 11:28:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-Id: <19970314142547Z49198-256+1@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 875 Lines: 29 > > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. > > Just an idea. Well, I'll leave that to Nev -- personally, I'm already working on trying to get CD-ROM drives working on the SAM. I've got an 8x spped one at home just waiting for a free couple of hours and a download of the ATAPI spec. Specaking of which, could anyone else try downloading this for me: ftp://fission.dt.wdc.com/pub/standards/atapi/spec/SFF8020-r2.6/PDF/8020r6.pdf (I'm having donwload problems -- to slow from work). If you can do this we may have CD-ROMs a plenty. Also, if anyone can get hold of the ISO9660:1988 standard, the rockridge extensions to ISO9660 standard, the ecma168 stndard, and the joliet and romeo stnadards, I'd be very happy. Note: that *is* joliet, not juliet :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:09 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970314132758.00929100@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:27:58 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: References: <25A526A4B21@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1402 Lines: 34 At 12:43 PM 3/14/97 +0000, you wrote: >Status: RO > >On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Dave Hooper wrote: > >> > > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't >> > > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. >> > > Just an idea. >> > >> > Not a bad one at that. >> >> How about getting HD and ED drives to work? Double & quad the disk >> size. Or am I getting ahead of myself? I was just thinking that a >> more flexible DOS is needed to get DD and HD disks to both work, so >> maybe why not build in ED compatibility too? > >Who can actually afford ED disks? The last I heard, they cost about 5uks >each. Especially when you are losing a meg on it.. (2.88meg instead of 4meg) > >And is there any way of squeezing any more data out of the disks aswell? >Like actually having almost 2meg on a HD disk rather than just 1.44 or >1.6meg? Possibly. A PC HD disk is 18 spt, 160 tracks. Depending on whether or not the criteria for the gap size, preamble and postamble on the sectors are relaxed, then you could conceivable cram 20spt in. I'd be willing to bet that it's more likely you'll only be able to fit 19spt, or 19.5spt though. More likely is being able to handle 10 x 1024byte spt -- same result, less sync data, slightly more unreliable. But heck, if we really really really wanted that much reliability, we'd still be using 128byte sectors. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:10 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970314132436.0092b530@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:24:36 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <19970314123523Z49217-255+1@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 322 Lines: 11 At 06:35 AM 3/14/97 EST, you wrote: >>What the software side will involve, is a complete reorganisation of the >>Sam's directory and file structure. But heck, that needs doing anyway. >> >Couldn't you get away with just using 1024byte sectors? Maybe :) But the existing structure isn't particularly good anyway. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:11 1997 Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:14:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <25A526A4B21@eigg.sms.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Mar 14, 97 10:29:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-ID: <"runix.runi.768:14.03.97.13.16.38"@runix.runit.sintef.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1558 Lines: 34 > > > > How about getting HD drives to work on SAM? Double the disk size. Don't > > > know about the hardware but the software should be quite easy. > > > Just an idea. > > > > Not a bad one at that. > > How about getting HD and ED drives to work? Double & quad the disk > size. Or am I getting ahead of myself? I was just thinking that a > more flexible DOS is needed to get DD and HD disks to both work, so > maybe why not build in ED compatibility too? The problem is that getting the ED drives and HD drives to work on the SAMrequires certain... erm... constraints on the disk controller chip to be lessened. Such as the clock-speed of it for a start. Ideally, we'd use the VL1772-02-02 chips to use HD drives. However, they're in very short supply, and cost 13.80 UKP per unit, at a minimum of 100 Units per order. The only place I've found that can get them is Excluesicve Electronic Components -- and with a minimum of 100 units, we couldn't just get one for evaluation to try out... So the only other solution is... a new disk controller chip. Which reqquires a completely new DOS. MNot only that, but without DMA, the Z80 could just about manage HD -- but it won't be able to manage ED drives, as for each one the data transfer rate across the bus has to double. With approx. 17 free microseconds per data read, you can fit (about) one extra read in the sector read cycle. More than tha,t, and you're really hitting arcane access methods. Which may or may not work at all. Ever. Anyone for a new architecture folks? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:12:11 1997 Subject: Re: Uploading to the NVG FTP To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:19:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Cooke) In-Reply-To: <1F1FA7D0628@smserver1.ulst.ac.uk> from "Gavin Smith" at Mar 14, 97 12:39:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Simon Cooke Message-ID: <"runix.runi.871:14.03.97.13.19.58"@runix.runit.sintef.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1493 Lines: 31 > And a big yes from me too. I've had so much bother downloading from > the FTP site, and by the time I get home and find nothing works for a > number of reasons, I have now just given up. If everything was > compressed in the same format, with the uncompressing program NOT IN > SOME OTHER COMPRESSED FORMAT (!) (as on the site at the moment - just > how big do you think the program is uncompressed, that you feel the > need to compress it?!), then the FTP might actually be of some use. I'm going to write a C program, for PC's, which will write out a 9-sectors-per-track disk for SAM use (not all machines can handle 10 sectors per track). With a bit of messing around, I can also knock up a program on the SAM to write a SAM disk in only 9 sectors per track. This can then be transferred to the PC, after having whatever compression programs are necessary added to it. The method for getting access to the software would then be: On the SAM, format a normal disk. On a PC (or, if Ian and Allan can help, other machines as well), download the zip-compresssed tool disk, and the writer program. Run the writer program, which then has no problems working at all (9spt remember), which writes the data to disk (after decompressing it of course -- use PKUNZIP or something for that). Hey presto, one tool disk -- and one that should work happily on any SAM. Now all we need is a good decompressor program on the SAM, and we can get all the transfers we need done. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:59:11 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:23:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Justin Skists X-Sender: c93js1@guava.cms.dmu.ac.uk To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments In-Reply-To: <"runix.runi.768:14.03.97.13.16.38"@runix.runit.sintef.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1585 Lines: 32 On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > The problem is that getting the ED drives and HD drives to work on the > SAMrequires certain... erm... constraints on the disk controller chip to > be lessened. Such as the clock-speed of it for a start. Ideally, we'd use > the VL1772-02-02 chips to use HD drives. However, they're in very short > supply, and cost 13.80 UKP per unit, at a minimum of 100 Units per order. > The only place I've found that can get them is Excluesicve Electronic > Components -- and with a minimum of 100 units, we couldn't just get one > for evaluation to try out... Have you tried Viewcom Electronics? They're good at getting single units. Like when I was trying to get a single MC68HC811E2 chip, minimum order was 23 units (230quid total price) or Farnell could supply me one for 53quid. I phoned up Viewcom and they managed to get me one for 15quid. They've got an advert in Elektor. Oh wait, I think I've still got the invoice in my bag... Telephone = 0181 - 471 9338. Well, they've given me the best quality of service so far in this project of mine (even though their advert doesn't look like it)..... -- ============================================================================= |Justin Skists (c93js1@dmu.ac.uk) | Artificial Intelligence: | |BSc (Hons) Computer Science, Year 4 | Making computers behave like | |De Montfort University, Leicester, England | they do in the movies. | ============================================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 14:59:11 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:43:33 EST From: "YOUNG Neville, IT Life" To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: WARNING: beware offers of free software Message-Id: <19970314144643Z49217-256+11@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1920 Lines: 37 Date: 1997-03-14 14:46 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: 14 March 1997 13:30 Please be aware of the note below, which has been forwarded from Unisys: We have received information that a few people have received telephone calls from someone who claims to be carrying out a computer survey for an external company. The company name that they give is usually a big well-known software company, and they usually say that they are doing the survey because they want to give out free software. They want to know what would be a good time for someone to come from their company and install the software on your PC. They also ask questions about income, etc. During their questioning, they (unknowingly to you) find out what time you're usually home, what kind of computer equipment you have and all sorts of other valuable information. On one occasion, the person receiving the call was robbed the very next day (of course, when he was not home). One of our employees received a similar call recently. Fortunately, he knew about this ahead of time, and didn't provide them with any information. Please be aware of the situation and the potential danger involved in giving out any information like this over the phone. The people sound very genuine, and very few are going to question receiving free software. We would advise you, however, to say that if they have your phone number, they should have your address (we think they're getting it off the internet somehow), and they can mail you any free software they might be offering. If you have a home computer set-up, you should be familiar with installing your own software. You may even want to tell them you don't have a home computer. Whatever you're comfortable with. Please don't give out any information you may regret later. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 15:14:26 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:00:10 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970314100008_-802120282@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 643 Lines: 23 In a message dated 13/03/97 17:03:59, you write: >o > > >> >> 3) A Z380 card, plugging into Sam, with its own onboard memory >> >'dat one, please. >> Got lots of money to spare??? > >a) They asked what we wanted, not what we thought was practical Oh, in that case, where shell I start..... >b) do you have the time/money/talent to help build the SRAM from scratch > when a fair amount of the Z380 board is already done? SRAM designs are ready may I remind you, all Nev and I asked for originally was for some people to give them the once over and spot any problems and/or point out any improvements that could be made. > >Paul Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 15:14:27 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:00:12 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970314100011_208961575@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Comms chips. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 660 Lines: 19 In a message dated 13/03/97 18:44:59, you write: >On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Simon Cooke wrote: > >> The programmable timer is already present on the COMMS interface... Check >> the docs :) > >And since I don't have the COMMS interface...... Well, I've had the stock checked. There are 14 comms boards left and I doubt (given the sales since SAMCO went down) that any more boards would be made even though the artwork does exist to do more if the demand suddenly came up. However. The two main chips - IM26C91 and MAX232 are both in stock - have not had a count done, but there are quite a few of each I told. So. Can anyone think of a use for the chips? Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 15:14:43 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:00:15 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970314100010_179892519@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SAM_CLOCK Latest News. Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 516 Lines: 16 In a message dated 13/03/97 17:04:01, you write: >At 11:10 AM 3/13/97 +0000, you wrote: >>Err. Why not include the SAM_Clock, SRAM, and a programmable timer >>on one board. At least then it would be worth buying, in my view. After >>all, the clock and timer are really only one chip each (not including the >>addressing logic). > >The programmable timer is already present on the COMMS interface... Check >the docs :) > >Simon And because what we want are small moduals so it is easier to mix and match. Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 14 15:14:44 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:00:23 -0500 (EST) From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <970314100016_414806055@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: SRAM vs. Z380 arguments Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5656 Lines: 126 In a message dated 13/03/97 18:45:08, you write: > >The option(1) SRAM board does not fulfil this requirement. You keep >telling me it has nothing to do with SamSon. Correct, it is to do with SAM. It is one of the many cards that I hope will be developed to add on to exisiting SAMs. At some point all these cards _MAY_ get converted into SAMSON. > > >An option(2) SRAM card would fit the bill, but you seem to be holding out >for your own way, yet again. Because the Z380 does not exist yet - even in prototype form. To think about making the card Z380 compatible would be daft at this stage - If the Z380 /needs/ an SRAM card of its own then one will be produced, although I dont thnink one will be needed (maybe wrong, but I think it would be easier to make the Z380's system completely RAM based). > >If you really do know as much about programming as you claim to, why do >you continue to insist the programmers should start writing the Samson >code before even the final processor is available?! It is very difficult >to do anything worthwhile in machine code without knowing what the very >specifications are. Ah! There is the point of your misunderstanding I think. The object of the SRAM card is to make the SAM better - to develop an intergrated operating system (at first by hacking around, then later by using a Compiler Specification Language to implement a restructered system). This then provides the tools with which to go forward onto the Z380 (or other chip) when the hardware is ready. In the early stages it is all SAM, later it becomes SAM and service routines for the Z380 or Graphics cards, their systems being loaded from SAM disc and passed to the parts of the system that need them. Later, as the 2nd processor begins to take over from the Z80 things will change. In other words it is not an balck and white thing, the change will come as need dictate. > >I have said it before, and you can go back to read the logs because I'm >sick and tired of having to retype things time and time again before you >even think about paying the slightest bit of attention. You have, at >times, totally ignored all points of view other than your own, and been >very rude about it in the process. You attack people and projects >personally, but appear to have at best a very sketchy knowledge of the >topics on which you claim to be an expert. That is your opinion, which I defend your right to have. > >You treat this list as a property, as if we are only here to grant your >every whim: THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS. You are, essentially, no different >to any other subscriber here, by no authority can you expect your word to >be taken as law. You edit Format magazine, so what? There are an >overwhelming number of "famous names" on this list, either by connections >with some magazine, by writing programs, by designing hardware, or by some >combination of the three. > >In short; you get one vote, just like everybody else. But since when has this list been a voting list? > >> >> >2) A Sam-based (SRAM " ) board but including future Z380 expandability >> >> This one can't be done until after item 3. >> >Says you. >> I would think that anyone who understands what is involved would say the >> same. How can you design an interface for a processor board that does not >> even exist yet - even in rough design. > >Well, it seems that Simon Cooke disagreed, and given that he's been >involved in the accelerator prototype, I would guess that he understands >exactly what is involved. The accelerator and the Z380 board have some things in common - but they are not the same thing. I would think that Simon will be the first to admit that to use the Z380 to its best it means starting from scratch, using what has been learned from the accelerator project, and looking at what is wanted for the new system. > >Bob, I think I would get less annoyed with you if you said things like "I >think ..." as opposed to "Everybody who is not in an advanced state of >mental decay, should think ...". Particularly when your comment is so >obviously way off the mark. I have to write this as quickly as possible, almost as if I was talking on the phone. Given more time I would have room for the niceties of life but I dont. > >> >But read the question. If the option (3) is chosen and built, there will >> >be no place for the SRAM card _as such_ - note I was careful to include >> >the onboard memory in the description. >> >> A bad place to put it. > >At first I accepted your "future-proof" argument as being almost sensible. >But now you seem to have become so obsessed with the "Sam SRAM card" idea, >that you have lost any ideas about where this project is supposed to be >heading. You may want the memory to be completely separated from the >processor, so you can vote for the relevant option. Others may see no >reason why the two should be separated, indeed they may see very good >reasons for keeping them together. That's why people are getting the >chance to vote. And on a public list like this, you've frankly got no >reason or right to stop them. > >> >> A big step, do we have the ability to take this big a project on, this >> >> early in the day? >> >Probably. >> >> :-) > >Meaning? Seems rather like you're avoiding the issue. Either that or the >smiley represents how happy you are at the prospect of the Z380 card... Oh I do look forward to the Z380/A.N.Other card, it will be nice to get our collective teeth into. But there is a lot of work to be done first. I tell you what, once I've got FORMAT off to the printers I will try to do a block diagram which may make things a little clearer. > > >Andrew Bob.