From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 15:37:06 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <897081a7.34e07060@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:21:02 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A few questions Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 471 Lines: 21 In a message dated 09/02/98 21:00:19, you write: >. > >Okay, and now for a slightly harder question to answer... > >Who owns to rights to the Enigma Variations titles... > >;-) Enigma, again as far as I know. A couple of years ago Colin and I purchased their last stocks to add to the stock which came from SAMCO. So we have had some to sell at shows. We purchased the discs and in some cases had to do our own inserts because Enigma didn't have any. HTH. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 16:01:52 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Announcement References: <199802071631.QAA16229@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 10 Feb 1998 15:55:37 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Dave Hooper"'s message of "Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:31:01 +0000" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 313 Lines: 12 "Dave Hooper" <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> writes: > http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/sampages/games/surp.html > > well, it wasn't really. there was only ever one ball. yeah, and you can do the same effect (Albeit a tad slower) in BASIC ... (With the odd port commands ...) Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 19:49:02 1998 From: davidm@enterprise.net (David Munden) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Derek Morgan - New Game Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:42:10 GMT Message-ID: <34e04f98.1613968@mail.enterprise.net> References: <8ab33df6.34ca0163@aol.com> <34d04f4a.23625498@mail.enterprise.net> <34d6f786.5254731@mail.enterprise.net> <34dbe7bd.17581615@mail.enterprise.net> In-Reply-To: <34dbe7bd.17581615@mail.enterprise.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 374 Lines: 14 On Thu, 05 Feb 1998 20:39:10 GMT, you wrote: >Just goes to show that you aren't collecting and reading the mail >enough then. :) It`s just a case of not having enough time. >BTW, did you ever find an unprotected master copy of Occult >Connection? Oh, yes I had forgotten about that, I have got one somewhere, but I can`t remember where I put it. :) _ |_)avid (\/)unden From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 19:49:03 1998 From: davidm@enterprise.net (David Munden) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Derek Morgan - New Game Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:42:09 GMT Message-ID: <34df4f64.1561533@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 238 Lines: 9 > that when I do collect my mail that there are so many mails to >> collect. > >I know the feeling . . . is there a way of getting the list in a digest >form? I don`t think so, but it would be useful if there was. _ |_)avid (\/)unden From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 19:57:21 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:48:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@lily To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: <897081a7.34e07060@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 588 Lines: 19 On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >Who owns to rights to the Enigma Variations titles... > > Enigma, again as far as I know. A couple of years ago Colin and I purchased > their last stocks to add to the stock which came from SAMCO. So we have had > some to sell at shows. We purchased the discs and in some cases had to do our > own inserts because Enigma didn't have any. But . . . Enigma went bust years ago! Luv, Mark "I'm bending over to tie my shoelaces and this bloke come up to me and says 'Mate, your shredded wheat's showing'. I think he was showing out." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 20:52:58 1998 Message-Id: <199802102047.VAA29823@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: A few questions Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:49:00 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 901 Lines: 29 > Van: Mark Sturdy > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: A few questions > Datum: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 8:48 > > On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > > > >Who owns to rights to the Enigma Variations titles... > > > > Enigma, again as far as I know. A couple of years ago Colin and I purchased > > their last stocks to add to the stock which came from SAMCO. So we have had > > some to sell at shows. We purchased the discs and in some cases had to do our > > own inserts because Enigma didn't have any. > > But . . . Enigma went bust years ago! So that still does not answer the question who owns the rights, just buying up the last stock before a company goes bust does not mean that you have the rights with them. Bai Bai -- Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] The borderline Express will terminate at this station :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 20:58:24 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:54:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@lily To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: <199802102047.VAA29823@mailserv.caiw.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 582 Lines: 20 On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Robert van der Veeke wrote: > > But . . . Enigma went bust years ago! > > So that still does not answer the question who owns the rights, just buying > up the last stock before a company goes bust does not mean that you have > the rights with them. Doesn't copyright normally revert to the programmers in a situation like this? I belive Persona now have the rights to most Enigma titles, though. Luv, Mark "I'm bending over to tie my shoelaces and this bloke come up to me and says 'Mate, your shredded wheat's showing'. I think he was showing out." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 21:37:16 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210162618.006ab3fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:26:18 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: References: <199802102047.VAA29823@mailserv.caiw.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2141 Lines: 43 At 08:54 PM 2/10/98 +0000, you wrote: >Doesn't copyright normally revert to the programmers in a situation like >this? I belive Persona now have the rights to most Enigma titles, >though. It's a tricky situation. Under UK copyright law, and the Geneva convention (no, really... the Geneva copyright convention, that is, not the one about prisoners of war or anything like that), the rights of the artist are stronger than the rights of the person to who copyright is assigned, except in cases where that copyright is legally waived; even then, it's still strongly attached to the artist. HOWEVER... without seeing the original contract, we can only speculate about who owns the copyright now. My guess would either be that it reverted to the programmer, or belongs to the receivers (which is what would happen with, say, all the Revelation titles), and thus would have to be bought from the receivers or the programmers. Interestingly, in the case of a single-source distributor (a la SAMCo / Revelation), buying up stock does not actually count as assigning the right to sell and/or distribute that stock for profit. As the distributor in the case is the owner of the copyright, until that software is distributed to a third party, such as a retailer or distribution chain, then it's a grey area -- and "copying" does not actually occur until the software is given to another person in a business (or fraudulent) transaction. This means that, for example, if someone were to obtain all of the stock of software from SAMCo/Revelation for resale without, say, paying the receivers for that stock, they'd be committing copyright theft and possibly fraud. Amazing what you learn when you're doing a physics degree isn't it?* Simon *In this case, while I should have been doing some background reading, I wandered to the legal section of the library, as I was having trouble with publishers at the time. ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 22:12:27 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <769cf9bc.34e0cf02@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:04:47 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 641 Lines: 19 In a message dated 07/02/98 03:35:26, you write: > I know... but you have to go with what'll make money, y'kno? Most so-called > System Administrators would run a mile if faced with a Linux install. *sigh* > > Basically, Microsoft O/S platforms are in 90% (if not more) of the machines > in use in business today. It'd be ludicrous, stupid, and most companies > would go out of business very quickly if they supported the other platforms > as well. Most /smaller/ companies, that is. > > *sigh* > > Simon I would say your logic is wrong there Simon. If companies support EXTRA platforms they make more money not less. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 22:20:13 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:04:45 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Famous SAM People Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 420 Lines: 14 In a message dated 06/02/98 20:23:34, you write: > > Oh, and if anybody happens to buy Computer Shopper, their February 98 issue > contains a cartoon drawn by Mel Croucher, entitled "Great Moments In > Computing No. 120: The First Ten Years" which features the Sam robot... > I'll scan it when I get time... > > Andrew March issue (their special 10th birthday issue) contains a good write up on INDUG. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 22:20:15 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <788a8f3c.34e0cf01@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:04:46 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Completely off topic AMD stuff (was Format and their selecti Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 522 Lines: 15 In a message dated 07/02/98 03:35:18, you write: > > Perhaps, by the way, since you seem to be into win95, you could tell me > why, at random times, when I try to boot Win95 it says "bypassing your > startup files" and boots into safe mode, whereupon when I immediately ask > it to reboot it does it properly, except that it thrashes the disk a lot > more than usual? > > imc We have just had the machines in the office upgraded to Window NT to get round this problem - 95 spent more time down than up. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 23:34:42 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:31:02 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <769cf9bc.34e0cf02@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1808 Lines: 46 >> Basically, Microsoft O/S platforms are in 90% (if not more) of the machines >> in use in business today. It'd be ludicrous, stupid, and most companies >> would go out of business very quickly if they supported the other platforms >> as well. Most /smaller/ companies, that is. >> >> *sigh* >> >> Simon > >I would say your logic is wrong there Simon. If companies support EXTRA >platforms they make more money not less. Oh, sorry, I bow to the knowledge of someone who's a pig farmer's son or something and is about to go into the car business. Or whatever you posted last time. Development costs money. More platforms == more development time -- because GUI code isn't all that portable unless you pay for shell API's, which are expensive and don't always work that well. Because of bad experiences with them, I also *loathe* 3rd party libraries, because unless they're proved to work well they can double development time and introduce *unfixable* bugs. More platforms also == more expertise -- which costs *more* money because you have to draft in programmers with other skills. More platforms also == more training -- which costs money because you take programmers away from other projects. And how do you recoup this? You can't. The sales on the other platforms are no-where near enough to cover the development costs. Most small development shops with a turnover of 1-2 million pounds, have < 20 people working for them. And they only make, out of than, an average 100,000 UKP profit. If that. After you take out expenses, salaries, etc. HTH Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Feb 10 23:34:42 1998 Message-Id: <9802102319.AB29199@mars.cableol.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:21:17 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: (Fwd) Games Master X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 263 Lines: 15 I sent this once but it doesn't seem to have got through. Sorry if anyone gets it twice!!! Hi, I've recently started playing around with Games Master again but i've misplaced my manual. Does anyone know how I can get another copy ?? Thanks Neil Maynard From imc Wed Feb 11 00:55:02 1998 Subject: Re: A few questions To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:55:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980210162618.006ab3fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 10, 98 04:26:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 289 Lines: 8 On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:26:18 +0000, Simon Cooke said: > It's a tricky situation. Under UK copyright law, and the Geneva convention > (no, really... the Geneva copyright convention, that is, not the one about > prisoners of war or anything like that), The Berne convention, Shirley? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 01:16:26 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:26:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@holly To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 319 Lines: 9 On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Simon Cooke wrote: > >I would say your logic is wrong there Simon. If companies support EXTRA > >platforms they make more money not less. > > Oh, sorry, I bow to the knowledge of someone who's a pig farmer's son or > something and is about to go into the car business. Oooeeeeeeeoooo! Handbag. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 01:16:26 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:45:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@holly To: lipgloss@bolis.com cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: (whimper) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 304 Lines: 13 This is why I'm never going let anyone put a picture of me on the internet ever again. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/4534/sturdy.html Luv, Mark "I'm bending over to tie my shoelaces and this bloke come up to me and says 'Mate, your shredded wheat's showing'. I think he was showing out." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 03:22:43 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210221551.006ab764@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:15:51 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: <199802110055.AAA10234@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19980210162618.006ab3fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 623 Lines: 18 At 12:55 AM 2/11/98 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:26:18 +0000, Simon Cooke said: >> It's a tricky situation. Under UK copyright law, and the Geneva convention >> (no, really... the Geneva copyright convention, that is, not the one about >> prisoners of war or anything like that), > >The Berne convention, Shirley? I could be wrong; it was a while ago :) Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 09:24:07 1998 Message-Id: <199802110916.JAA19243@relais1.orctel.co.uk> From: David Zambonini To: sam-users Subject: Re: (whimper) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:15:31 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 181 Lines: 7 Please don't post with subject titles like "whimper". My mail filters don't work properly so I've got a hell of a job to work out which mailing list it belongs to.... :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 12:26:49 1998 Message-ID: <0B42DA3001F73000@c2gate.tcom.co.uk> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:06:00 +0000 From: Dan Doore Organization: * To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Subject: RE: Web page update Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.30A MHS/SMF to SMTP Gateway X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 224 Lines: 14 Speaking of Web Page updates... More stuff to steal on Dan's Sam Pages http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/coupe/ Go surf :-) Dan. Work: dandoore@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 12:43:14 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199802111230.MAA27853@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <769cf9bc.34e0cf02@aol.com> from "BillRitman@aol.com" at "Feb 10, 98 05:04:47 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:30:44 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 331 Lines: 9 > I would say your logic is wrong there Simon. If companies support EXTRA > platforms they make more money not less. Not necessarily. They have to pay for the software tools to develop on the platform, the coders to *write* for the platform, for their support staff to be trained on it; all the little things, that add up. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 12:43:16 1998 Message-Id: <199802111233.MAA04280@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:33:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Announcement References: "Dave Hooper"'s message of "Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:31:01 +0000" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 207 Lines: 7 > yeah, and you can do the same effect (Albeit a tad slower) in BASIC ... > (With the odd port commands ...) port command? as far as i can remember you only need SCREEN x, DISPLAY x and PUT commands dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 12:43:18 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199802111232.MAA28359@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from Simon Cooke at "Feb 10, 98 05:31:02 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:32:54 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 260 Lines: 6 > More platforms also == more expertise -- which costs *more* money because > you have to draft in programmers with other skills. Damn. Why does elm appear to be sorting the mail in reverse order? I could have saved myself the trouble of writing that email. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 12:47:07 1998 Message-Id: <199802111243.MAA06562@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:43:10 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: (whimper) CC: sam-users@nvg.unit.no In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 178 Lines: 10 > This is why I'm never going let anyone put a picture of me on the internet > ever again. > > http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/4534/sturdy.html that site rocks! dave From imc Wed Feb 11 12:53:53 1998 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:53:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199802111232.MAA28359@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Feb 11, 98 12:32:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 374 Lines: 9 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:32:54 +0000 (GMT), Paul Walker said: > Damn. Why does elm appear to be sorting the mail in reverse order? That would be Simon and his broken Date headers which show the local time but have "+0000" after them instead of what it should be, which is "-0500". You may have heard me complain about broken Date headers before - now you know why. :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 13:27:36 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:21:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@holly To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: (whimper) In-Reply-To: <199802111243.MAA06562@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 239 Lines: 10 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Dave Hooper wrote: > > This is why I'm never going let anyone put a picture of me on the internet > > ever again. > > > > http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/4534/sturdy.html > > that site rocks! No; it scares. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 14:16:40 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199802111407.OAA06838@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <199802111253.MAA11160@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> from Ian Collier at "Feb 11, 98 12:53:53 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:07:35 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 153 Lines: 7 > You may have heard me complain about broken Date headers before - now > you know why. :-) Yesyes, okay. :) I think I'll agree with you now, though. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 14:47:08 1998 Message-ID: <7342DA3001F73000@c2gate.tcom.co.uk> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:55:00 +0000 From: Dan Doore Organization: * To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Subject: RE: (whimper) Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.30A MHS/SMF to SMTP Gateway X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 259 Lines: 18 > > Nice barnet*! > > Shut UP! Oooeeeeeeeoooo! Handbag! >:->> Seriously through, who is this bloke? - he looks too sensible to be the axe-murderer type... Dan. Work: dandoore@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 17:00:59 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211114419.006b0a64@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:44:19 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <199802111253.MAA11160@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <199802111232.MAA28359@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 603 Lines: 16 At 12:53 PM 2/11/98 +0000, you wrote: >That would be Simon and his broken Date headers which show the local time >but have "+0000" after them instead of what it should be, which is "-0500". >You may have heard me complain about broken Date headers before - now >you know why. :-) Yikes... I was reasonably sure that it wasn't doing that until now... Criminy... Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:08 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAP&E Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:23:29 GMT Message-ID: <34e1e93f.20509692@mail.enterprise.net> References: <199802102047.VAA29823@mailserv.caiw.nl> <3.0.1.32.19980210162618.006ab3fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980210162618.006ab3fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 705 Lines: 23 Just uploading SAM AMATEUR PROGRAMMING & ELECTRONICS - issues 2, 3 & 4 to NVG's incoming on the SAM site. The transfer rate has slowed down so much that I'll have to abort sending the other issues 5 & 6 until a later date. I'll be here until the milkman comes otherwise. Damn... SAPE 4 has been stuck at 74% for nearly 5 minutes. :( I've had enough.. *Frode*, could you please delete the SAPE4.ZIP file from incoming please. It's stalled and I don't want to give BT money for nothing. Will someone either upload SAPE 1 or send it to me as a zipped .dsk file, please? I'll try and upload them at weekend.. in the middle of the night.. when the f*king Americans are asleep. :) Bye, Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:08 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAP&E disks proposal Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:03:04 GMT Message-ID: <34e6f060.22334620@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 887 Lines: 25 Since it seems that you've got to have the patience of Job and the bank balance of Bill Gates in order to upload stuff to NVG, I think I'll use an alternative plan. I'll put the remaining issues on my web site at weekend, and then whoever gets free net time (i.e. Uni students) can transfer them up to NVG. If it were only these disks that I intended to upload, then I wouldn't be bothered, but I also want to transfer another 16 Adventure club disks, and (with Johnna's permission) some of the SAM2SAM disks. Alternatively, I could email them all to anyone who is willing to put them onto NVG? Anyone who wants to help, send an email to davewhitmore@enterprise.net I've had problems like this before with ftp & web sites, and my modem isn't exactly slow at 33k6. The net seems to be grinding to a halt. I've seen faster transfer rates at 2400! Bye, Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:08 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211140424.006ad1d0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:04:24 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SAP&E In-Reply-To: <34e1e93f.20509692@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980210162618.006ab3fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <199802102047.VAA29823@mailserv.caiw.nl> <3.0.1.32.19980210162618.006ab3fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 14 At 06:23 PM 2/11/98 GMT, you wrote: >I'll try and upload them at weekend.. in the middle of the night.. >when the f*king Americans are asleep. :) Just because I'm not a real American, doesn't mean I'm faking it. :) Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:10 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <56fade52.34e1ffcb@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:45:13 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2460 Lines: 57 In a message dated 10/02/98 23:36:20, you write: > >I would say your logic is wrong there Simon. If companies support EXTRA > >platforms they make more money not less. > > Oh, sorry, I bow to the knowledge of someone who's a pig farmer's son or > something and is about to go into the car business. Thank you, your bow is accepted :) > > Or whatever you posted last time. > > Development costs money. More platforms == more development time -- because > GUI code isn't all that portable unless you pay for shell API's, which are > expensive and don't always work that well. Because of bad experiences with > them, I also *loathe* 3rd party libraries, because unless they're proved to > work well they can double development time and introduce *unfixable* bugs. That is a very poor excuse. Most of the hard work these days is done by either the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range of machines. If it wasn't for Microsoft contracting companies ONLY to work on Windows 95 there would be a lot more versions on the popular packages around. > > More platforms also == more expertise -- which costs *more* money because > you have to draft in programmers with other skills. So? You have more programmers working, you have a bigger market, so you make more money. Adobe do it, Lotus do it, Corel do it. > > More platforms also == more training -- which costs money because you take > programmers away from other projects. > > And how do you recoup this? You can't. The sales on the other platforms are > no-where near enough to cover the development costs. Now you really are talking rubbish. Do you really think that sales for Macs are not worth having? How about Unix based machines? Microsoft/Intel may have a very large part of the market but it is still well below 100%. > > Most small development shops with a turnover of 1-2 million pounds, have < > 20 people working for them. And they only make, out of than, an average > 100,000 UKP profit. If that. After you take out expenses, salaries, etc. Fine, so they are content to be small fish in a big pond. Others see the sense of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond. But even more sensible would be to be a fish that swims in many ponds, then you stand a better chance of getting bigger. > > HTH It didn't, but I hope my reply helps you. > > Simon Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:11 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <6ea407d2.34e1ffcc@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:45:14 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Games Master Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 449 Lines: 23 In a message dated 10/02/98 23:36:40, you write: > > I sent this once but it doesn't seem to have got through. Sorry if > anyone gets it twice!!! > > > > Hi, > > I've recently started playing around with Games Master again but i've > misplaced my manual. Does anyone know how I can get another copy ?? > > > Thanks > > > Neil Maynard > Format handle all of Betasofts products for him, they may be able to help. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:12 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:31:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@holly To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no cc: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: RE: (whimper) In-Reply-To: <7342DA3001F73000@c2gate.tcom.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1090 Lines: 26 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Dan Doore wrote: > Seriously through, who is this bloke? - he looks too sensible to be > the axe-murderer type... Edvart? Hmm. He's a 18-year old albino freak boy who used to be in the year below me at school. He's never, ever spoken to me, but because he's a friend of a friend he managed to get hold of my email address and has been stalking me incessantly since September. When I went to someone's party at Christmas, he surreptitiously followed me there and back, just so that he could later alarm me by emailing me and describing everything I did that evening. The photo of me you see splattered all over his page comes from a Pulp website. He claims to have a "wall of Mark" in his room. Intriguing, and yet highly alarming. For further details, read the guestbook of The Moribund Times, www.moribund.mcmail.com (also, if you've ever been to Harrogate read The Moribund Times. It's good). Luv, Mark "I'm bending over to tie my shoelaces and this bloke come up to me and says 'Mate, your shredded wheat's showing'. I think he was showing out." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:13 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211155917.006ac99c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:59:17 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SAP&E disks proposal In-Reply-To: <34e6f060.22334620@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 537 Lines: 13 >I've had problems like this before with ftp & web sites, and my modem >isn't exactly slow at 33k6. The net seems to be grinding to a halt. >I've seen faster transfer rates at 2400! I'm willing to try and help -- but I cna't have them emailed to me 'cos of a file size limit on my msg box at erols. Si ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:14 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:18:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... In-reply-to: <199802101029.KAA14593@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> References: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2488 Lines: 63 [still non SAM related junk] > > The old Cyrix P150+ which runs at 75MHz * 2 is incompatable with a > > lot of older motherboards, but that didnt stop Cyrix creating it. > > ah-hah. but i was talking about the route the other way around... > manufacturers creating a new motherboard incompatible with many of > the current CPUs which, especially when considered alongside your > statement, is surely a step backwards. Which begs the question, which came first, the CPU, or the M/Board ??? > > Until these chips are replaced, >66MHz, is just a risk most us us are > > prepared to take. > . then get a motherboard with a Via chipset instead of an intel one! Urgh ! > > My i166-MMX runs quite nicely at 233MHz ( 66*3.5) which makes it a > > very cheap 233 chip! > > crikey. nice one. any special precautions? i'm just surprised the > 166 can go that far? I managed to get it to boot at 266MHz, but wouldn't go any further :-( > > Another factor in overclocking is the memory and PCI subsystem, most > > 60ns memory simms only allow 66MHz, you need to go for Syncronous RAM > > to get the speeds up to 100MHz (just like my 64MB of SDIMMS ;-) ). > yeh, but you're only doing 66 mhz anyway... well , whatever Yeh, true, i had problems at first running at higher clock speeds, and i got fed up of not having a reliable system, a friend has it running at 75MHz , but had to increase the core voltage to 3.2V IIRC. > > intel chip, yet! All the others still emulate FPU and in real world > > apps it still wins, no matter what some benchmarks may try to show. > > . despite the fact that many 'leading authorities' agree that the K6 > is the fastest chip under Win95 (including FPU) ? Yeah, sorry, i never beleive the 'authorities' ;-) but it does depend on the application, and the rest of the hardware. Trying desperatly to bring all this PC hardware waffle in to touch with the SAM list, whats the thoughts on: Using the 15ns SRAM from a PC cache and the main memory on a SAM and using a Synchronous DIMM module (32MB for around 40 quid), and by using a memory subsystem to read the 4 bytes from the DIMM into the SRAM tocreate a sort of Paged memory system. On a burst read from the DIMM, 4 bytes would be read in one double-word, then split up into 4 single bytes and transfered into the main memory, then the next 4 bytes fetched. I suppose this would be a bit too complexed to implement, so i suppose i just go back to sleep shall I ? -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:15 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211164640.006ad6d8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:46:40 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <56fade52.34e1ffcb@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 9035 Lines: 176 At 02:45 PM 2/11/98 EST, you wrote: >> Development costs money. More platforms == more development time -- because >> GUI code isn't all that portable unless you pay for shell API's, which are >> expensive and don't always work that well. Because of bad experiences with >> them, I also *loathe* 3rd party libraries, because unless they're proved to >> work well they can double development time and introduce *unfixable* bugs. > >That is a very poor excuse. Most of the hard work these days is done by either >the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write >their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range of >machines. If it wasn't for Microsoft contracting companies ONLY to work on >Windows 95 there would be a lot more versions on the popular packages around. Oh Do They Really? You tell me an application that was *NOT* written in Java or SmallTalk -- we're talking mainstream, industry standard languages and applications here -- which when compiled for X windows and for Windows 95 doesn't require recoding. Java and SmallTalk aren't included, because they *are* virtual machines, and neither of them are good for mission-critical applications yet, because they're not stable. Re: your later point about Macs: Having had experience with porting to the Macintosh, it is not a simple task. The whole paradigm behind how the OS works is different. It requires *serious* recoding of GUI components, and anything that does file access. And sometimes, memory management if you don't want to rely on Malloc's. And you can forget Java on the Mac. And not only that, but VB on the Mac is still far enough over the horizon for it not to count. >> More platforms also == more expertise -- which costs *more* money because >> you have to draft in programmers with other skills. > >So? You have more programmers working, you have a bigger market, so you make >more money. Adobe do it, Lotus do it, Corel do it. Let's see which platforms we're talking about here: Corel --> Not really much of a development house. Apart from their Corel Draw flagship product, a not inconsiderable part of their product range are actually redistributed 3rd party products, or technology acquisitions from smaller companies. Their Unix products seem surprisingly behind the times -- Corel Draw, for example, is only on revision 3.5 for Unix. Their other Unix product, Word Perfect, was acquired from another company. Mac products include: Word Perfect 3.5 (really old version - even Unix was up to version 7.0), which is another of their acquired products. Corel Gallery -- a collection of fonts and clipart. Not exactly difficult; you can automate the conversion process, and you actually don't need to do it at all if you've got a more recent Mac, as the Mac supports Truetype, and graphics formats have standardised. So we're left with Corel Print House and Corel Draw 6 being the only Mac products they have which wasn't someone else's originally, nor something that doesn't require real work: hey presto, what exactly are they? Corel Draw 6 Suite is two versions (at least 3 years!) out of date, and also includes a large number of acquired products. Corel Print House is Corel Draw with some code taken out. Corel is a large development house. They can afford to do it. They don't. They buy other people's existing products, or leave other platforms so far behind in the development chain that it's unbelievable. Lotus --> Have been around since the early 1980's / end of the 1970's, when there wasn't a clear platform leader. Started out on DOS; AFAICR, Microsoft ported their system to the Mac. Possibly. It could have been the Apple Lisa or the Apple II. Recently bought out by IBM. Massive development staff; though they have an extensive Lotus Partner Program scheme (of which our company is a major member). Being closely associated with IBM for a long time means that they've released plenty of OS/2 stuff -- which is great, if you want to run an effectively dead operating system. Not only that, but as OS/2 was originally developed and conceived by Microsoft, the API's are reasonably similar to 95/NT so that you can convert without too much hassle. But who on earth would you sell it to? If you know of any other products they produce for other platforms, please let me know, and I'll explain my rationale for discounting Lotus based on more hard data. Adobe --> Started out on the Macintosh, and worked with a number of industry standards committees on projects from typography to graphic representation standards (such as post-script). As such, from necessity they've had to be cross-platform from the start, but this hasn't extended much from their original home-computer platform focus, which was the Mac. Most of their products are released (for profit reasons) on the PC as well, and some of these actually work /better/ under that architecture. (Photoshop 4.0 makes great use of MMX technology, and requires less memory to do the same stuff -- or so it seems). Adobe have a long history of producing software for platforms -- provided that they're well paid to do it -- vis. Microsoft getting Adobe to produce their Postscript printing engine for Windows 95 and NT -- because they could guarantee to get it right, as they'd invented the damn thing. Most other platforms buy the standards documents and implement their own versions -- Adobe doesn't get involved. Adobe also sells fonts; these are available for various platforms, but again this is another case where conversion is automated. Truetype is flavour of the month these days due to its embedded hinting capabilities, allowing for better output at small sizes/low resolutions. The glyph-sets are easily converted back to Adobe Type 1 for use on other platforms, such as the Macintosh / industry standard printers such as the Xerox Docutech v.135. Adobe's most recent invention, in the same vein as their Postscript achievements, has been Adobe Acrobat. This has been widely released, cross platform -- which isn't surprising. It's a rendering engine -- you feed stuff in, pass it to the graphics/printing engine to feed it back out. Once you have access to the basic platform primitives, you can do it. It's a one-person, 3 man-months job to convert the engine core to as many platforms as you need, provided that they have adequate documentation. Profit returned: immense, because everyone will use your standard for transferring documents electronically. Similar, in fact, to the way Postscript made them the company they are today. Gets a bit trickier when you move away from reader products to the actual PDF file creator, but it's worth the investment. Note: most of the writer programs used to create the files actually take the form of printer drivers, which Adobe has already written as Postscript printer drivers, so it doesn't take much work to change the kernel. All of these companies are also *incredibly* large, mass-market software producers. They can afford to -- but on the whole, they don't do it arbitrarily. They do it because they (a) buy the technology from others, (b) have a long-standing relationship with another platform, and have moved to the Windows platform for profit reasons, or (c) have technology which by its nature *has* to be cross platform, or it won't work. >> More platforms also == more training -- which costs money because you take >> programmers away from other projects. >> >> And how do you recoup this? You can't. The sales on the other platforms are >> no-where near enough to cover the development costs. > >Now you really are talking rubbish. Do you really think that sales for Macs >are not worth having? How about Unix based machines? Microsoft/Intel may have >a very large part of the market but it is still well below 100%. Macs, maybe -- but they're less than 10% of the market at last count. Unix? Don't make me laugh. Unix is not a mass-market platform. Let me quote myself again: >> And how do you recoup this? You can't. The sales on the other platforms are >> no-where near enough to cover the development costs. Got the message? >> Most small development shops with a turnover of 1-2 million pounds, have < >> 20 people working for them. And they only make, out of than, an average >> 100,000 UKP profit. If that. After you take out expenses, salaries, etc. > >Fine, so they are content to be small fish in a big pond. Others see the sense >of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond. But even more sensible would be to >be a fish that swims in many ponds, then you stand a better chance of getting >bigger. Not if it kills you in the process. >> HTH > >It didn't, but I hope my reply helps you. No, it just displays ignorance of business practices and facts in the real world. Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Feb 11 22:08:15 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211164902.006ac244@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:49:02 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <56fade52.34e1ffcb@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 857 Lines: 19 >That is a very poor excuse. Most of the hard work these days is done by either >the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write >their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range of >machines. If it wasn't for Microsoft contracting companies ONLY to work on >Windows 95 there would be a lot more versions on the popular packages around. Oh, and by the way, we're talking Microsoft here, not Nintendo. Microsoft do *not* bind people not to support other platforms. They do, however, provide a lot better support for their platform than other vendors for developers. Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 00:38:22 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Cleaning the stables Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Date: 12 Feb 1998 01:35:02 +0100 Message-ID: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 152 Lines: 5 I've removed about a hundred dead addresses from the list recently. If anyone here feels like doing that job from time to time, do let me know. --Arnt From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 07:08:17 1998 X-Warning: Original message contained 8-bit characters, however during the SMTP transport session the receiving system was unable to announce capability of receiving 8-bit SMTP (RFC 1651-1653), and as this message does not have MIME headers (RFC 2045-2049) to enable encoding change, we had very little choices. X-Warning: We ASSUME it is less harmful to add the MIME headers, and convert the text to Quoted-Printable, than not to do so, and to strip the message to 7-bits.. (RFC 1428 Appendix A) X-Warning: We don't know what character set the user used, thus we had to write these MIME-headers with our local system default value. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:03:59 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9802120703.AA14139@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Cleaning the stables X-Sun-Charset: ISO-8859-1 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id HAA12017 Status: RO Content-Length: 219 Lines: 11 > > I've removed about a hundred dead addresses from the list recently. > If anyone here feels like doing that job from time to time, do let me > know. Jeg har tilbudt meg å gjøre det før jeg. -Frode > > --Arnt > From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 09:12:53 1998 Message-ID: <8744DA3001F73000@c2gate.tcom.co.uk> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 9:04:00 +0000 From: Dan Doore Organization: * To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Subject: RE: (whimper) Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.30A MHS/SMF to SMTP Gateway X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 460 Lines: 19 > He claims to have a "wall of Mark" in his room. Intriguing, and yet > highly alarming. Get yourself a knife. Eat with it. Sleep with it. Live with it. > For further details, read the guestbook of The Moribund Times, > www.moribund.mcmail.com (also, if you've ever been to Harrogate > read The Moribund Times. It's good). I have just seen it. Warped. Dan. Work: dandoore@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 10:15:46 1998 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 9:57:00 +0000 From: Dan Doore Organization: * To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Subject: Sam Users List (Was: RE: Cleaning the s Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.30A MHS/SMF to SMTP Gateway X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2796 Lines: 69 > I've removed about a hundred dead addresses from the list recently. Hokay, Sam Users List Take Two: Adie Nunn adie@scooter.demon.co.uk Andrew Collier asc25@cam.ac.uk Andy Chandler ajchandler@hotmail.com Andy Gale ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk Ben Curren ELA95BEC@sheffield.ac.uk Ben Versteeg ben@charm.il.ft.hse.nl Bill Ritman BillRitman@aol.com Bob Brenchley BrenchleyR@aol.com Colin MacDonald Gouranga@aol.com Colin Piggot c_piggot@hotmail.com Dan Doore dandoore@bacg.com Dave Fulton D.A.Fulton@durham.ac.uk Dave Handley d.handley@lancaster.ac.uk Dave Hooper d.c.hooper@sms.ed.ac.uk Dave Whitmore davewhitmore@enterprise.net David Munden davidm@enterprise.net David Zambonini dzambonini@orctel.co.uk David Zambonini D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk Dean Liversidge dean@error.demon.co.uk Diggory Gray graydj@ugs1.ph.bham.ac.uk Edwin Blink e.p.r.p.blink@pl.hanze.nl Frode Tennebo ft@edh.ericsson.se Gianni "BBKaneda" bbk@bbk.org Graham Goring graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk Ian Armstrong mail01@iarmst.demon.co.uk Ian Collier Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk Ian Dalziel IDalziel@idalziel.demon.co.uk James Curry James@lhutz.demon.co.uk Jeff Crawford samcoupe@cadderly.demon.co.uk Johnna Teare j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk Justin Skists Justin_Skists@case.co.uk Lee Willis l.willis@comp.brad.ac.uk Luke Trevorrow blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk Mark Sturdy pyumi@csv.warwick.ac.uk Martin/Maria Rookyard rookyard@btinternet.com Matthew Craven mcbi6mc2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk Paul Nolan PNolan@clubi.ie Paul Walker csuan@csv.warwick.ac.uk Persona persona@clara.net Peter Harkess peterharkess@nuearth.demon.co.uk Phil Glover PGLOVER43@aol.com Robert Brady rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk Robert Van Der Veeke rjvveeke@caiw.nl Simon Cooke simon.cooke@umist.ac.uk Simon Owen sam-users@obobo.demon.co.uk Slawomir Grodkowski slawek@math.uni-goettingen.de Stacey Witney switney@huggable.demon.co.uk Stefan Drissen Stefan_Drissen@nl.coopers.com Stephen Harding sh5655@bristol.ac.uk Stewart Skardon sskardon@argonet.co.uk Tim Paveley unc@mono.org Tim Wells tim@twellys.demon.co.uk Tomasz Pudlo tombox@katowice.pkp.com.pl Wayne Coles wayne@rflect.demon.co.uk 59 members. Unknowns: 101762.2062@compuserve.com gary@avtech.demon.co.uk 106460.3142@compuserve.com 113354.2207@Compuserve.com janowska@usctoux1.cto.us.edu.pl From imc Thu Feb 12 10:43:23 1998 Subject: Re: SAP&E To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:43:23 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <34e1e93f.20509692@mail.enterprise.net> from "Dave" at Feb 11, 98 06:23:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 200 Lines: 7 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:23:29 GMT, Dave said: > I'll try and upload them at weekend.. in the middle of the night.. > when the f*king Americans are asleep. :) Early morning is best for that. :-) imc From imc Thu Feb 12 10:44:26 1998 Subject: Re: (whimper) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:44:26 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Sturdy" at Feb 11, 98 07:31:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 217 Lines: 7 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:31:35 +0000 (GMT), Mark Sturdy said: > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > cc: Sam Users Mailing List Would you please stop sending two copies of everything to this list? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 11:09:13 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199802121046.KAA02256@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <56fade52.34e1ffcb@aol.com> from "BillRitman@aol.com" at "Feb 11, 98 02:45:13 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:46:42 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 195 Lines: 5 > the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write > their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range of Er .. Java's not that common, not yet. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 12:56:43 1998 Message-ID: <5$T1XMAbhl40Ewc+@scooter.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:03:07 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Adie Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 720 Lines: 21 Dean Liversidge wrote: >Using the 15ns SRAM from a PC cache and the main memory on a SAM and >using a Synchronous DIMM module (32MB for around 40 quid), and by >using a memory subsystem to read the 4 bytes from the DIMM into the >SRAM tocreate a sort of Paged memory system. >On a burst read from the DIMM, 4 bytes would be read in one >double-word, then split up into 4 single bytes and transfered into >the main memory, then the next 4 bytes fetched. >I suppose this would be a bit too complexed to implement, so i >suppose i just go back to sleep shall I ? !!!!!!! My head just exploded. -- Adie http://www.scooter.demon.co.uk Blind Youth Fanzine HQ + Travis, Inaura, The Needles From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 13:44:34 1998 Message-Id: <199802121340.NAA09371@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:39:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... References: <199802101029.KAA14593@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 693 Lines: 14 > Which begs the question, which came first, the CPU, or the M/Board > ??? well... if you already have a stock of CPUs and Mboards and then a NEW motherboard comes out which is incompatible with a lot of the current CPUs then... either the manufacturer of this motherboard is really slow (and hasn;t found out that K6 and Cyrix chips have been invented yet) or they have just designed and built an incompatible motherboard... if there are already lots of different types of cpus, and motherboards compatible with them, then it doesn't matter if the cpu or the motherboard came first... but if a NEW, INCOMPATIBLE motherboard comes out you can be sure the manufacturers are tossers. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 14:21:38 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:49:08 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 701 Lines: 20 > > > I would say your logic is wrong there Simon. If companies support EXTRA > > platforms they make more money not less. > > Not necessarily. They have to pay for the software tools to develop on > the platform, the coders to *write* for the platform, for their support > staff to be trained on it; all the little things, that add up. Which is surely why nobody ever bothered to support the SAM. If there was money to be made oout of the market that would outweight production costs, rest assured that the larger software houses would have dabbled. > > Paul > Peace, Love, Kisses... Johnna Pig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "I just want my future to live up to my past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 14:21:40 1998 Message-Id: <199802121358.NAA14329@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:58:12 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-reply-to: <56fade52.34e1ffcb@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1108 Lines: 33 Nick Shelness, CTO of Lotus software will be speaking, 11:00 Lecture Theatre B. > So? You have more programmers working, you have a bigger market, so you make > more money. Adobe do it, Lotus do it, Corel do it. and d'you know what he had to say? they are seriously considering dropping out from the UNIX market as they have a disproportionately large amount of expenditure in this area, having to support four or five different, similar but non-identical, unix development platforms. The latest versions of their Domino server will only be available for certain UNIX platforms and they are no longer producing Domino or Notes clients for UNIX. why? because the Windows NT market is by far the biggest (his words not mine) and easiest to develop for so THAT is where the revenue is coming from. they have recently produced a number of Java apps for the forthcoming Oracle NC machines (called E:Notes i believe) (and presumably for other NC machines) but are as yet undecided whether this market will be profitable. the machines debut in a month or so, he said. hope that informs. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 14:21:41 1998 Message-Id: <199802121400.OAA14877@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:00:23 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time In-reply-to: <199802121557.IAA19867@ds9.vsni.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 538 Lines: 27 i'm sorry, but these make me laugh. > Hi, my name is Sharon, call me any time of the day or night at 1-664-410-4827 > It is a free place where you can meet other people like yourself!!! (Or of the other sex) > > > 1-664-410-4827 > 1-664-410-4827 > 1-664-410-4827 > 1-664-410-4827 > > Please call right away, I'm AWFUL Horny tonight. > > Sharon and friends. how is this sam related? well, 1-664-410-4827 is clearly an american phone number. and cookie is in the US at the moment. how more-sam-related could you get? duh. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 14:42:48 1998 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:27:03 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9802121427.AA16673@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAP&E X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 388 Lines: 14 > *Frode*, could you please delete the SAPE4.ZIP file from incoming > please. It's stalled and I don't want to give BT money for nothing. sape4.zip checked out OK. However, sape5.zip didn't. If you really prefere it, you can email it to me and I'll move it. > > Will someone either upload SAPE 1 or send it to me as a zipped .dsk > file, please? sape1.zip is already there. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:05:07 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <72a19929.34e30b49@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:30 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A few questions Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 612 Lines: 25 In a message dated 10/02/98 20:08:33, you write: >On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> >Who owns to rights to the Enigma Variations titles... >> >> Enigma, again as far as I know. A couple of years ago Colin and I purchased >> their last stocks to add to the stock which came from SAMCO. So we have had >> some to sell at shows. We purchased the discs and in some cases had to do >our >> own inserts because Enigma didn't have any. > >But . . . Enigma went bust years ago! > >Luv, > > > >Mark As far as I know they are still running. Though they did move offices around two years ago. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:05:08 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:36 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A few questions Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2541 Lines: 56 In a message dated 10/02/98 22:32:01, you write: >At 08:54 PM 2/10/98 +0000, you wrote: >>Doesn't copyright normally revert to the programmers in a situation like >>this? I belive Persona now have the rights to most Enigma titles, >>though. > >It's a tricky situation. Under UK copyright law, and the Geneva convention You mean "Berne" but it is in the same country :) >(no, really... the Geneva copyright convention, that is, not the one about >prisoners of war or anything like that), the rights of the artist are >stronger than the rights of the person to who copyright is assigned, except >in cases where that copyright is legally waived; even then, it's still >strongly attached to the artist. Wrong, in part. If an 'artist/author' assigned copyright then, unless s/he placed some restictions on the assignment, the copyright and in most cases all other interlectual property rights are lost to the artist for the term of the assignment. > >HOWEVER... without seeing the original contract, we can only speculate >about who owns the copyright now. My guess would either be that it reverted >to the programmer, or belongs to the receivers (which is what would happen >with, say, all the Revelation titles), and thus would have to be bought >from the receivers or the programmers. > >Interestingly, in the case of a single-source distributor (a la SAMCo / >Revelation), buying up stock does not actually count as assigning the right >to sell and/or distribute that stock for profit. As the distributor in the >case is the owner of the copyright, until that software is distributed to a >third party, such as a retailer or distribution chain, then it's a grey >area -- and "copying" does not actually occur until the software is given >to another person in a business (or fraudulent) transaction. Now that has me totaly confused Simon. Would you like ot have another go at theat one because whichever way I read that it does not make sence. > >This means that, for example, if someone were to obtain all of the stock of >software from SAMCo/Revelation for resale without, say, paying the >receivers for that stock, they'd be committing copyright theft and possibly >fraud. Noooo. If they obtained stock without paying for it they would not be guilty of copyright theft, just normal theft or fraud. Copyright would have nothing to do with it at that stage. Copyright has to do with the copying of software, not with its distribution or sale. > >Amazing what you learn when you're doing a physics degree isn't it?* > >Simon -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:05:08 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:39 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A few questions Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Lines: 15 In a message dated 11/02/98 02:17:11, you write: >On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:26:18 +0000, Simon Cooke said: >> It's a tricky situation. Under UK copyright law, and the Geneva convention >> (no, really... the Geneva copyright convention, that is, not the one about >> prisoners of war or anything like that), > >The Berne convention, Shirley? > >imc Don't call him Shirley, he may get upset. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:05:08 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:40 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 949 Lines: 27 In a message dated 11/02/98 22:14:05, you write: >>That is a very poor excuse. Most of the hard work these days is done by >either >>the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write >>their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range of >>machines. If it wasn't for Microsoft contracting companies ONLY to work on >>Windows 95 there would be a lot more versions on the popular packages >around. > >Oh, and by the way, we're talking Microsoft here, not Nintendo. > >Microsoft do *not* bind people not to support other platforms. They do, >however, provide a lot better support for their platform than other vendors >for developers. > >Simon That is the biggest load of sh*t I've ever heard from you Simon. If you *really* believe that then you have fallen for the Gates' smoke-screen in a big way. I may not agree with all Bill put, but on his statement about Microsloth he is 100% right. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:05:08 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <1ffe7735.34e30b53@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:41 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 280 Lines: 11 In a message dated 12/02/98 11:06:48, you write: >> the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write >> their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range of > >Er .. Java's not that common, not yet. Did he mention Java? -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:05:23 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <1050a228.34e30b4f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:37 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Games Master Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 458 Lines: 24 In a message dated 10/02/98 23:36:40, you write: >! > > > >Hi, > >I've recently started playing around with Games Master again but i've >misplaced my manual. Does anyone know how I can get another copy ?? > > >Thanks > > >Neil Maynard Assuming you are in the UK, if you send your original GamesMaster disc, plus three quid to cover costs, I think we can manage to get you one. send to Format Publications, 34 Bourton Road, Gloucester, GL4 0LE. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:05:24 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:33 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A few questions Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 343 Lines: 19 In a message dated 10/02/98 22:31:56, you write: > > >Doesn't copyright normally revert to the programmers in a situation like >this? I belive Persona now have the rights to most Enigma titles, >though. > >Luv, > > > >Mark Depends on the contract the programmer has. In most cases no, the rights belong to a receiver/liquidator. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:45:58 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:33:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@holly To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: <72a19929.34e30b49@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 810 Lines: 23 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >But . . . Enigma went bust years ago! > > As far as I know they are still running. Though they did move offices around > two years ago. Definitely not - I went to school in Harrogate, and a friend of mine did work experience with one of the companies that succeeded them. Enigma Variations closed AT LEAST two years ago; some of the people who worked there went on to form an internet services company called Smiley Ltd; others formed a company called (ironically) Phoenix. Both are based in Harrogate - Phoenix on North Park Road, just across from the old Enigma, where I bought my SAM in 1991. Luv, Mark "I'm bending over to tie my shoelaces and this bloke come up to me and says 'Mate, your shredded wheat's showing'. I think he was showing out." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 15:45:59 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:37:29 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id PAA23166 Status: RO Content-Length: 1002 Lines: 30 At 2:46 pm +0000 12/2/98, BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: >>Microsoft do *not* bind people not to support other platforms. They do, >>however, provide a lot better support for their platform than other vendors >>for developers. >> >>Simon > >That is the biggest load of sh*t I've ever heard from you Simon. If you >*really* believe that then you have fallen for the Gates' smoke-screen in a >big way. > >I may not agree with all Bill put, but on his statement about Microsloth he is >100% right. The Oracle hath spoken. Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ d From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 17:19:48 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:54:38 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: A few questions X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id RAA25858 Status: RO Content-Length: 1371 Lines: 35 At 2:46 pm +0000 12/2/98, BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: >>Interestingly, in the case of a single-source distributor (a la SAMCo / >>Revelation), buying up stock does not actually count as assigning the right >>to sell and/or distribute that stock for profit. As the distributor in the >>case is the owner of the copyright, until that software is distributed to a >>third party, such as a retailer or distribution chain, then it's a grey >>area -- and "copying" does not actually occur until the software is given >>to another person in a business (or fraudulent) transaction. > >Now that has me totaly confused Simon. Didn't take much, did it? > Would you like ot have another go at >theat one because whichever way I read that it does not make sence. theat? sence? It's obvious that you're nervous because your spelling has gone to pot *again* Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ w From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 17:19:48 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980212105523.006ae17c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:55:23 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 854 Lines: 24 At 09:46 AM 2/12/98 EST, you wrote: >>Microsoft do *not* bind people not to support other platforms. They do, >>however, provide a lot better support for their platform than other vendors >>for developers. >> >>Simon > >That is the biggest load of sh*t I've ever heard from you Simon. If you >*really* believe that then you have fallen for the Gates' smoke-screen in a >big way. > >I may not agree with all Bill put, but on his statement about Microsloth he is >100% right. Then *show* me some companies which have been bound by Microsoft in any kind of reciprocal agreement to support only the Windows platform. Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 17:19:49 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980212105827.006b0f10@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:58:27 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <1ffe7735.34e30b53@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 740 Lines: 24 At 09:46 AM 2/12/98 EST, you wrote: >Status: RO > >In a message dated 12/02/98 11:06:48, you write: > >>> the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write >>> their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range of >> >>Er .. Java's not that common, not yet. > >Did he mention Java? Unless he's talking about SmallTalk, I think we're running out of languages. Then again, he could be talking about P-Code, but that's MS only and only works on Windows. Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 17:19:50 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980212105745.006af8d0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:57:45 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 625 Lines: 16 At 09:46 AM 2/12/98 EST, you wrote: >Don't call him Shirley, he may get upset. No, calling me a liar and saying that I closed down SAMCo when the proof points otherwise makes me upset, Bob. Calling me Shirley does not. If you're trying to make out that yours and Bill's comments should be taken as jokes, then by all means, I'll laugh at you. Oh, sorry, I'll laugh at your comments. Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 17:19:51 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980212105920.006b07e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:59:20 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time In-Reply-To: <199802121400.OAA14877@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> References: <199802121557.IAA19867@ds9.vsni.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 549 Lines: 16 At 02:00 PM 2/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >how is this sam related? > >well, 1-664-410-4827 is clearly an american phone number. >and cookie is in the US at the moment. >how more-sam-related could you get? duh. Damn. My secret's out. I'll have to find some other way to make enough money to pay the rent here :) Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 18:47:19 1998 Message-ID: <020601bd37e6$4c616920$1f61989e@avtech.demon.co.uk> From: Gary MacKenzie To: sam-users Subject: Re: Sam Users List (Was: RE: Cleaning the s Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:44:20 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3089 Lines: 82 I'm here . Just lurking. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Doore To: Sam Users Mailing List Date: 12 February 1998 10:16 Subject: Sam Users List (Was: RE: Cleaning the s > >> I've removed about a hundred dead addresses from the list recently. > >Hokay, Sam Users List Take Two: > >Adie Nunn adie@scooter.demon.co.uk >Andrew Collier asc25@cam.ac.uk >Andy Chandler ajchandler@hotmail.com >Andy Gale ee31ag@ee.surrey.ac.uk >Ben Curren ELA95BEC@sheffield.ac.uk >Ben Versteeg ben@charm.il.ft.hse.nl >Bill Ritman BillRitman@aol.com >Bob Brenchley BrenchleyR@aol.com >Colin MacDonald Gouranga@aol.com >Colin Piggot c_piggot@hotmail.com >Dan Doore dandoore@bacg.com >Dave Fulton D.A.Fulton@durham.ac.uk >Dave Handley d.handley@lancaster.ac.uk >Dave Hooper d.c.hooper@sms.ed.ac.uk >Dave Whitmore davewhitmore@enterprise.net >David Munden davidm@enterprise.net >David Zambonini dzambonini@orctel.co.uk >David Zambonini D.M.Zambonini@cs.cf.ac.uk >Dean Liversidge dean@error.demon.co.uk >Diggory Gray graydj@ugs1.ph.bham.ac.uk >Edwin Blink e.p.r.p.blink@pl.hanze.nl >Frode Tennebo ft@edh.ericsson.se >Gianni "BBKaneda" bbk@bbk.org >Graham Goring graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk >Ian Armstrong mail01@iarmst.demon.co.uk >Ian Collier Ian.Collier@comlab.oxford.ac.uk >Ian Dalziel IDalziel@idalziel.demon.co.uk >James Curry James@lhutz.demon.co.uk >Jeff Crawford samcoupe@cadderly.demon.co.uk >Johnna Teare j.d.teare@uclan.ac.uk >Justin Skists Justin_Skists@case.co.uk >Lee Willis l.willis@comp.brad.ac.uk >Luke Trevorrow blackadder@orinocco.demon.co.uk >Mark Sturdy pyumi@csv.warwick.ac.uk >Martin/Maria Rookyard rookyard@btinternet.com >Matthew Craven mcbi6mc2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk >Paul Nolan PNolan@clubi.ie >Paul Walker csuan@csv.warwick.ac.uk >Persona persona@clara.net >Peter Harkess peterharkess@nuearth.demon.co.uk >Phil Glover PGLOVER43@aol.com >Robert Brady rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk >Robert Van Der Veeke rjvveeke@caiw.nl >Simon Cooke simon.cooke@umist.ac.uk >Simon Owen sam-users@obobo.demon.co.uk >Slawomir Grodkowski slawek@math.uni-goettingen.de >Stacey Witney switney@huggable.demon.co.uk >Stefan Drissen Stefan_Drissen@nl.coopers.com >Stephen Harding sh5655@bristol.ac.uk >Stewart Skardon sskardon@argonet.co.uk >Tim Paveley unc@mono.org >Tim Wells tim@twellys.demon.co.uk >Tomasz Pudlo tombox@katowice.pkp.com.pl >Wayne Coles wayne@rflect.demon.co.uk > >59 members. > >Unknowns: > >101762.2062@compuserve.com >gary@avtech.demon.co.uk >106460.3142@compuserve.com >113354.2207@Compuserve.com >janowska@usctoux1.cto.us.edu.pl > From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 19:12:48 1998 From: Maria Rookyard To: sam-users Subject: Re: A few questions Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:52:38 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 239 Lines: 10 > > (no, really... the Geneva copyright convention, that is, not the one about > > prisoners of war or anything like that), > > The Berne convention, Shirley? Whatever you do, *please* don't get Simon on the subject of Switzerland ;) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 19:12:48 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAP&E disks proposal Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:04:48 GMT Message-ID: <34e4476c.38050157@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <3.0.1.32.19980210173102.006ab06c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <3.0.1.32.19980211155917.006ac99c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980211155917.006ac99c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 552 Lines: 18 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:59:17 -0500, you wrote: >>I've had problems like this before with ftp & web sites, and my modem >>isn't exactly slow at 33k6. The net seems to be grinding to a halt. >>I've seen faster transfer rates at 2400! > >I'm willing to try and help -- but I cna't have them emailed to me 'cos of >a file size limit on my msg box at erols. > It's okay thanks. I've just emailed 5 & 6 over to Frode. I'll put some more stuff on the web pages soon and ifanyone wants to move stuff from there to NVG, they're welcome. Bye, Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 19:12:49 1998 From: Maria Rookyard To: sam-users Subject: Re: (whimper) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:52:52 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 123 Lines: 6 > Get yourself a knife. Eat with it. Just be careful not to cut your tongue with it ;) > Sleep with it. Live with it. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 19:33:32 1998 From: Maria Rookyard To: sam-users Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:28:08 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 339 Lines: 16 > > Sharon and friends. > > how is this sam related? > > well, 1-664-410-4827 is clearly an american phone number. > and cookie is in the US at the moment. > how more-sam-related could you get? duh. > So are you trying to say that Simon is really Sharon? He lived with us for almost 2 years. Believe me - I'd have noticed! Maria. x From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 20:24:34 1998 From: Martin Rookyard To: sam-users Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:20:22 -0000 Message-ID: <01bd37f3$a5687970$5b3e63c3@adiemus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 765 Lines: 34 -----Original Message----- From: Maria Rookyard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: 12 February 1998 19:33 Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time > >> > Sharon and friends. >> >> how is this sam related? >> >> well, 1-664-410-4827 is clearly an american phone number. >> and cookie is in the US at the moment. >> how more-sam-related could you get? duh. >> > >So are you trying to say that Simon is really Sharon? > >He lived with us for almost 2 years. Believe me - I'd have noticed! > >Maria. >x > > And just when did you get close enough to have a good view ???? Eh???? Was I at work :-) Then again in the event .. it doesn't matter - I suppose :-) being sharon and all that it entails... Martin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 21:42:56 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <70a9fd6c.34e36926@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:27:00 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 995 Lines: 27 In a message dated 11/02/98 22:14:05, you write: > > >That is a very poor excuse. Most of the hard work these days is done by > either > >the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write > >their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range of > >machines. If it wasn't for Microsoft contracting companies ONLY to work on > >Windows 95 there would be a lot more versions on the popular packages > around. > > Oh, and by the way, we're talking Microsoft here, not Nintendo. > > Microsoft do *not* bind people not to support other platforms. They do, > however, provide a lot better support for their platform than other vendors > for developers. > > Simon So why were Corel told that they would not be helped with Win'95/NT development if they did not withdraw support for Windows 3.1 programs in line with Microsofts plans to lumber everyone with the same operating system. Microsoft are 10 times worse than Nintendo. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 21:42:56 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <7c91e2eb.34e36929@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:27:03 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1011 Lines: 33 In a message dated 12/02/98 17:21:38, you write: > > At 09:46 AM 2/12/98 EST, you wrote: > >>Microsoft do *not* bind people not to support other platforms. They do, > >>however, provide a lot better support for their platform than other > vendors > >>for developers. > >> > >>Simon > > > >That is the biggest load of sh*t I've ever heard from you Simon. If you > >*really* believe that then you have fallen for the Gates' smoke-screen in a > >big way. > > > >I may not agree with all Bill put, but on his statement about Microsloth > he is > >100% right. > > Then *show* me some companies which have been bound by Microsoft in any > kind of reciprocal agreement to support only the Windows platform. > > Simon Any company that wants to continue to receive current (up to date as opposed to two years old) technical details on Windows 95/98/NT. Any company that wants to produce major games for Win'95 (because Microsoft owns the code that allows it to happen). Is that enough? Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 21:42:57 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:26:59 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 10575 Lines: 219 In a message dated 11/02/98 22:14:04, you write: > >machines. If it wasn't for Microsoft contracting companies ONLY to work on > >Windows 95 there would be a lot more versions on the popular packages > around. > > Oh Do They Really? > > You tell me an application that was *NOT* written in Java or SmallTalk -- > we're talking mainstream, industry standard languages and applications here > -- which when compiled for X windows and for Windows 95 doesn't require > recoding. Tell me if I'm worng, but I've understood that the move in recent years was towards having common languages, like C or C++, which allowed a programmer to easily port material from platform to platform. I can see that you would, given any new platform, need to develop I/O libraries but these would be common to all the products you develop. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not EXACTLY the reason many new games are coming out in Win95 form because '95 handles screen sizing, memory and a host of other things? > > Java and SmallTalk aren't included, because they *are* virtual machines, > and neither of them are good for mission-critical applications yet, because > they're not stable. > > Re: your later point about Macs: > Having had experience with porting to the Macintosh, it is not a simple > task. The whole paradigm behind how the OS works is different. It requires > *serious* recoding of GUI components, and anything that does file access. > And sometimes, memory management if you don't want to rely on Malloc's. And > you can forget Java on the Mac. And not only that, but VB on the Mac is > still far enough over the horizon for it not to count. Doesn't MACOS have routines that do the same jod and Windows routines then? Like get me a character, print it to this window. True that actual interface code is different but the core code of a program would be the same - and you only have to develop the interface side once for each platform. > > >> More platforms also == more expertise -- which costs *more* money > because > >> you have to draft in programmers with other skills. > > > >So? You have more programmers working, you have a bigger market, so you > make > >more money. Adobe do it, Lotus do it, Corel do it. > > Let's see which platforms we're talking about here: > > Corel --> Not really much of a development house. Apart from their Corel > Draw flagship product, a not inconsiderable part of their product range are > actually redistributed 3rd party products, or technology acquisitions from > smaller companies. Their Unix products seem surprisingly behind the times > -- Corel Draw, for example, is only on revision 3.5 for Unix. What has the number of revisions to do with it? >Their other > Unix product, Word Perfect, was acquired from another company. Mac products > include: Word Perfect 3.5 (really old version - even Unix was up to version > 7.0), which is another of their acquired products. Corel Gallery -- a > collection of fonts and clipart. Not exactly difficult; you can automate > the conversion process, and you actually don't need to do it at all if > you've got a more recent Mac, as the Mac supports Truetype, and graphics > formats have standardised. So we're left with Corel Print House and Corel > Draw 6 being the only Mac products they have which wasn't someone else's > originally, nor something that doesn't require real work: hey presto, what > exactly are they? > > Corel Draw 6 Suite is two versions (at least 3 years!) out of date, and > also includes a large number of acquired products. Corel Print House is > Corel Draw with some code taken out. Again, why are you fixated with version numbers, purhaps the got it right earlier on another platform (although that does go to show they are not writing things in ways that would make life easier for themselves). > Corel is a large development house. They can afford to do it. They don't. > They buy other people's existing products, or leave other platforms so far > behind in the development chain that it's unbelievable. > Or they just keep one step ahead on each platform, letting others do the catch-up. > Lotus --> Have been around since the early 1980's / end of the 1970's, when > there wasn't a clear platform leader. Started out on DOS; AFAICR, Microsoft > ported their system to the Mac. Possibly. It could have been the Apple Lisa > or the Apple II. Recently bought out by IBM. Massive development staff; > though they have an extensive Lotus Partner Program scheme (of which our > company is a major member). > > Being closely associated with IBM for a long time means that they've > released plenty of OS/2 stuff -- which is great, if you want to run an > effectively dead operating system. Try telling the millions of OS/2 users it is a dead operating system :) >Not only that, but as OS/2 was > originally developed and conceived by Microsoft, the API's are reasonably > similar to 95/NT so that you can convert without too much hassle. But who > on earth would you sell it to? OS/2 users of course................. > > If you know of any other products they produce for other platforms, please > let me know, and I'll explain my rationale for discounting Lotus based on > more hard data. > > Adobe --> Started out on the Macintosh, and worked with a number of > industry standards committees on projects from typography to graphic > representation standards (such as post-script). As such, from necessity > they've had to be cross-platform from the start, but this hasn't extended > much from their original home-computer platform focus, which was the Mac. > Most of their products are released (for profit reasons) on the PC as well, > and some of these actually work /better/ under that architecture. > (Photoshop 4.0 makes great use of MMX technology, and requires less memory > to do the same stuff -- or so it seems). Adobe have a long history of > producing software for platforms -- provided that they're well paid to do > it -- vis. Microsoft getting Adobe to produce their Postscript printing > engine for Windows 95 and NT -- because they could guarantee to get it > right, as they'd invented the damn thing. Most other platforms buy the > standards documents and implement their own versions -- Adobe doesn't get > involved. Adobe also sells fonts; these are available for various > platforms, but again this is another case where conversion is automated. > Truetype is flavour of the month these days due to its embedded hinting > capabilities, allowing for better output at small sizes/low resolutions. > The glyph-sets are easily converted back to Adobe Type 1 for use on other > platforms, such as the Macintosh / industry standard printers such as the > Xerox Docutech v.135. > > Adobe's most recent invention, in the same vein as their Postscript > achievements, has been Adobe Acrobat. This has been widely released, cross > platform -- which isn't surprising. It's a rendering engine -- you feed > stuff in, pass it to the graphics/printing engine to feed it back out. Once > you have access to the basic platform primitives, you can do it. It's a > one-person, 3 man-months job to convert the engine core to as many > platforms as you need, provided that they have adequate documentation. > Profit returned: immense, because everyone will use your standard for > transferring documents electronically. Similar, in fact, to the way > Postscript made them the company they are today. Gets a bit trickier when > you move away from reader products to the actual PDF file creator, but it's > worth the investment. Note: most of the writer programs used to create the > files actually take the form of printer drivers, which Adobe has already > written as Postscript printer drivers, so it doesn't take much work to > change the kernel. And so Adobe are the ideal example of what I'm on about - now WHY do other companies not follow the lead? > > All of these companies are also *incredibly* large, mass-market software > producers. They can afford to -- but on the whole, they don't do it > arbitrarily. They do it because they (a) buy the technology from others, > (b) have a long-standing relationship with another platform, and have moved > to the Windows platform for profit reasons, or (c) have technology which by > its nature *has* to be cross platform, or it won't work. > > >> More platforms also == more training -- which costs money because you > take > >> programmers away from other projects. > >> > >> And how do you recoup this? You can't. The sales on the other platforms > are > >> no-where near enough to cover the development costs. > > > >Now you really are talking rubbish. Do you really think that sales for Macs > >are not worth having? How about Unix based machines? Microsoft/Intel may > have > >a very large part of the market but it is still well below 100%. > > Macs, maybe -- but they're less than 10% of the market at last count. Unix? > Don't make me laugh. Unix is not a mass-market platform. > > Let me quote myself again: > >> And how do you recoup this? You can't. The sales on the other platforms > are > >> no-where near enough to cover the development costs. Let me repeat myself - Are you REALLY saying that the sales for Mac are not worth going for? Because if you are then you must be round the bend. Mac may be a small percentage of the global computer market, but it is still a billion doller a year market. > > Got the message? Frankly, NO! > > >> Most small development shops with a turnover of 1-2 million pounds, have > < > >> 20 people working for them. And they only make, out of than, an average > >> 100,000 UKP profit. If that. After you take out expenses, salaries, etc. > > > >Fine, so they are content to be small fish in a big pond. Others see the > sense > >of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond. But even more sensible would be > to > >be a fish that swims in many ponds, then you stand a better chance of > getting > >bigger. > > Not if it kills you in the process. If others had take that attitude we would still be swimming in the sea ourselves. Thank heaven some people set their sights a little higher than others. > > >> HTH > > > >It didn't, but I hope my reply helps you. > > No, it just displays ignorance of business practices and facts in the real > world. Oh, and what you have said does not show exactly the same failing? > > Simon > Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 21:43:04 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <62819f6a.34e36928@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:27:01 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 355 Lines: 13 In a message dated 12/02/98 11:06:48, you write: > > > the operating system or the compiler. The large software developers write > > their code for a virtual machine which is then compiles for a wide range > of > > Er .. Java's not that common, not yet. > > OK, virtual machine may not be the right word. Pseudo-machine may be better. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 21:59:59 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:50:38 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id VAA00395 Status: RO Content-Length: 653 Lines: 18 At 9:26 pm +0000 12/2/98, BillRitman@aol.com wrote: >Try telling the millions of OS/2 users it is a dead operating system :) I would, but I don't know any OS/2 users. Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 21:59:59 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:51:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... In-reply-to: <5$T1XMAbhl40Ewc+@scooter.demon.co.uk> References: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 98 Lines: 12 > > My head just exploded. > > > -- > Adie Oooppps !, sorry Adie. =o) -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 22:00:02 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:51:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-reply-to: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1132 Lines: 30 > >Microsoft do *not* bind people not to support other platforms. They do, > >however, provide a lot better support for their platform than other vendors > >for developers. > >Simon > That is the biggest load of sh*t I've ever heard from you Simon. If > you > *really* believe that then you have fallen for the Gates' smoke-screen in a > big way. > > I may not agree with all Bill put, but on his statement about > Microsloth he is 100% right. Well blow me down, Bob thinks he's right again, but he isn't. Any Windows developer will be able to tell you how much work is saved just by using the microsoft developed API's and DLL, that are available let me see, is it zero cost i wonder, to the developers through SDK and such like Without a lot of that work, then developers would have to write tons of headers and such like rather than using a simple call. I dont like Gates' rule of the desktop PC, but when it boils down to it, it's hard to beat, the PC is a much nicer place because of all his teams developments. The problem is that most people begrudge the man so just dont like what he does. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 22:00:02 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:51:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... In-reply-to: <199802121340.NAA09371@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> References: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 541 Lines: 12 > if there are already lots of different types of cpus, and > motherboards compatible with them, then it doesn't matter if the cpu > or the motherboard came first... but if a NEW, INCOMPATIBLE > motherboard comes out you can be sure the manufacturers are tossers. Yep, but since the motherboards were already out at only 66Mhz, it was i daft move to make a chip that wouldnt run on them, so they had to get some manufacturers to build a new motherboard to go with it. Remember the chip wasnt the first chip around. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 22:00:02 1998 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:53:34 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Sturdy To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: pyumi@mail.csv.warwick.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 418 Lines: 14 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Andrew Collier wrote: > >Now that has me totaly confused Simon. > > Didn't take much, did it? > > > Would you like ot have another go at > >theat one because whichever way I read that it does not make sence. > > theat? sence? > > It's obvious that you're nervous because your spelling has gone to pot *again* Shut up, you dull, worthless little squirt. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 22:15:08 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980212170818.006a8174@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:08:18 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Off-topic: Cross Platform Programming In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 7425 Lines: 169 Before I go on, I'd like to ask Bill exactly what experience he has in the business world of programming? Because he's very opinionated about it. Because I, for a start, am in the thick of it at the moment. It's my profession. I am paid to do this. >Tell me if I'm worng, but I've understood that the move in recent years was >towards having common languages, like C or C++, which allowed a programmer to >easily port material from platform to platform. I can see that you would, >given any new platform, need to develop I/O libraries but these would be >common to all the products you develop. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but is >this not EXACTLY the reason many new games are coming out in Win95 form >because '95 handles screen sizing, memory and a host of other things? Yes, but this is *NOT* an insignificant task to perform!!!! Which is my point. The core code is generally *MUCH* smaller than the rest of it. Not to mention that ways of accessing databases vary from system to system -- whether you're using DAO, ODBC, JDBC, etc etc etc etc etc. The only common part is SQL. File access, file permissions, properties, ways of storing user profile information, network access, network code, etc etc etc *ALL* vary tremendously from platform to platform. This is one reason why I hate PC's. And it's surprising that they work as well as they do. >Doesn't MACOS have routines that do the same jod and Windows routines then? >Like get me a character, print it to this window. True that actual interface >code is different but the core code of a program would be the same - and you >only have to develop the interface side once for each platform. Yes, and no. And you've just quoted my point -- but the interface code in a complex program can be the /majority/ of the program!!! I'm updating legacy Visual Basic 3.0, C and IBM370 Assembler code to VB5.0 and Visual C++. The majority of the code is interface upon interface upon interface. There's an old rule -- the 80/20 rules -- which states that 80% of the work is fluff, 20% is the real stuff. That 80% includes error handling, data management, user interfaces... you name it. And the only thing I've mentioned so far that will remain the same from platform to platform is (possibly) the error handling code. >> Corel --> Not really much of a development house. Apart from their Corel >> Draw flagship product, a not inconsiderable part of their product range are >> actually redistributed 3rd party products, or technology acquisitions from >> smaller companies. Their Unix products seem surprisingly behind the times >> -- Corel Draw, for example, is only on revision 3.5 for Unix. > >What has the number of revisions to do with it? In the case of Corel software, it corresponds directly to the number of features available to the user in the packages. The current version is 8, which has roughly 5 times the features of version 4. >> Corel Draw 6 Suite is two versions (at least 3 years!) out of date, and >> also includes a large number of acquired products. Corel Print House is >> Corel Draw with some code taken out. > > >Again, why are you fixated with version numbers, purhaps the got it right >earlier on another platform (although that does go to show they are not >writing things in ways that would make life easier for themselves). You're right, perhaps, about them not doing it in ways that would make life easier, but major revision numbers -- at least for large companies such as Microsoft and Corel, indicate a large change in the functionality of the program, and for Corel the revision numbers are stepped indentically across the product line. >> Corel is a large development house. They can afford to do it. They don't. >> They buy other people's existing products, or leave other platforms so far >> behind in the development chain that it's unbelievable. >> >Or they just keep one step ahead on each platform, letting others do the >catch-up. If that was the case, I wouldn't be using Corel Xara, I'd be using Corel Draw. Corel Xara is a mis-marketed product, 100 times better than Corel Draw 8, that was acquired by Corel to stifle its release -- because it stomps all over their flagship product. >Try telling the millions of OS/2 users it is a dead operating system :) Gimme a box to stand on, and a large enough forum, and I'll tell them. How many games have been released on OS/2 recently? Or rather, let's take a bit more of a wider view -- how many aisles of software are devoted to the OS/2 platform in your local software shop? I'm guessing that it isn't many. >>Not only that, but as OS/2 was >> originally developed and conceived by Microsoft, the API's are reasonably >> similar to 95/NT so that you can convert without too much hassle. But who >> on earth would you sell it to? > >OS/2 users of course................. If you could find them. They're very quiet. Either that, or they've not learned to vote with their feet. >And so Adobe are the ideal example of what I'm on about - now WHY do other >companies not follow the lead? What? start out on one platform, find out they can make more money by supporting another platform instead, and move to that one, but because they've got the expertise they still support the original platform? Or wait until a bigger company comes along to pay them to produce software for their platform? Or write software who's only real virtue is that it's a highly portable information transmission system? >> Let me quote myself again: >> >> And how do you recoup this? You can't. The sales on the other platforms >> are >> >> no-where near enough to cover the development costs. > >Let me repeat myself - Are you REALLY saying that the sales for Mac are not >worth going for? Because if you are then you must be round the bend. Mac may >be a small percentage of the global computer market, but it is still a billion >doller a year market. Long term, yes. Short term, no. Most computer companies can only afford to look at the short term because of the speed at which the market changes. If they have too much of a long-term plan, they can go bust -- unless they take the time to grow correctly, which many of them cannot afford to do[1]. Possibly this will all change with the advent of Rhapsody, but somehow I doubt it. >> Not if it kills you in the process. > >If others had take that attitude we would still be swimming in the sea >ourselves. Thank heaven some people set their sights a little higher than >others. Are you talking about "survival of the fittest"? If so, don't you think that Microsoft is evidently a good case of this? (Oh god.. I'm going to have people thinking I'm an MS lover here.. but I'm not -- honest -- it's just that they've (a) done very well for themselves and (b) they've been doing things surpringly right recently... I was astonished...) >> No, it just displays ignorance of business practices and facts in the real >> world. > >Oh, and what you have said does not show exactly the same failing? I don't think so. I'd like to put it to the vote. Or get some other people in on this argument. Preferably people working for large-ish software companies. Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 22:15:09 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980212164656.006a851c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:46:56 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <70a9fd6c.34e36926@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 657 Lines: 16 At 04:27 PM 2/12/98 EST, you wrote: >So why were Corel told that they would not be helped with Win'95/NT >development if they did not withdraw support for Windows 3.1 programs in line >with Microsofts plans to lumber everyone with the same operating system. > >Microsoft are 10 times worse than Nintendo. Please, back-up your statements with references for stuff like this -- where can I find out about such a deal? Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 22:15:10 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980212165023.006ab16c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:50:23 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <7c91e2eb.34e36929@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1465 Lines: 31 At 04:27 PM 2/12/98 EST, you wrote: >Any company that wants to continue to receive current (up to date as opposed >to two years old) technical details on Windows 95/98/NT. Any company that >wants to produce major games for Win'95 (because Microsoft owns the code that >allows it to happen). > >Is that enough? Funny... because I work for such a company, and we don't have any such restraints. We can, at our whim, procure from Microsoft CD's for Win 3.1, 3.11 technical specs, and also we have a subscription to Developer Network, in which we receive the most up to date information available -- ie. the date on the CD is usually only about 2 or 3 days past the last updated piece of information in the files held on it. We produce software for the Mac -- or rather, we did, because British Telecom paid us to do so. We produce software for Java VM's for an international consortium. We do unix stuff for Microsoft's competitors. I reiterate; we are not forced at any point not to, nor are we prejudiced against in any way because we do so. Our info is always as up to date as Microsoft are willing to release -- ie. usually we've all got betas of the software. I honestly can't understand where you're getting this from. Simon ********************************************************* *"Hydrogen, when burned, makes a squeaky pop." * *"You try telling that to the crew of the Hindenberg..."* ********************************************************* From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Feb 12 22:25:40 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7c91e2eb.34e36929@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:21:21 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id WAA00618 Status: RO Content-Length: 953 Lines: 24 At 9:27 pm +0000 12/2/98, BillRitman@aol.com wrote: >Any company that wants to continue to receive current (up to date as opposed >to two years old) technical details on Windows 95/98/NT. Any company that >wants to produce major games for Win'95 (because Microsoft owns the code that >allows it to happen). Actually, the DirectX developers' kits are available for free. As are Apple's game sprockets. These two achieve basically the same aim, but in very different ways. --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ s From imc Fri Feb 13 00:36:25 1998 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:36:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 12, 98 09:50:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 115 Lines: 4 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:50:38 +0000, Andrew Collier said: > I would, but I don't know any OS/2 users. Yes you do. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 00:55:56 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802130036.AAA15292@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 12, 98 09:50:38 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:46:04 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id AAA08147 Status: RO Content-Length: 792 Lines: 22 At 12:36 am +0000 13/2/98, Ian Collier wrote: >On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:50:38 +0000, Andrew Collier said: >> I would, but I don't know any OS/2 users. > >Yes you do. You may have it, but you don't use it! Or at least, I've never seen you use anything except Linux, Win95 and Dos on that ThinkPad of yours. Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ 1 From imc Fri Feb 13 00:58:15 1998 Subject: Re: Cleaning the stables To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:58:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9802120703.AA14139@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Feb 12, 98 08:03:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 163 Lines: 6 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:03:59 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > Jeg har tilbudt meg å gjøre det før jeg. I tried rot13 but it still didn't make any sense... :-) imc From imc Fri Feb 13 01:00:50 1998 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:00:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980211164902.006ac244@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 11, 98 04:49:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 417 Lines: 14 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:49:02 -0500, Simon Cooke said: > Microsoft do *not* bind people not to support other platforms. They do, > however, provide a lot better support for their platform than other vendors > for developers. Of course, that's why it's so difficult to find a complete set of man pages for the Linux system calls and all the X functions. D'oh! :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 01:21:36 1998 From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:19:09 -0000 Message-Id: <01bd381d$62bb6fe0$1d14a8c2@sparky> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1127 Lines: 29 >> I may not agree with all Bill put, but on his statement about >> Microsloth he is 100% right. > >Well blow me down, Bob thinks he's right again, but he isn't. Come on, we are all used to it by now! And he still doesn't bloody see that no-one except his clone agrees with him, but still he labours his points. >I dont like Gates' rule of the desktop PC, but when it boils down to >it, it's hard to beat, the PC is a much nicer place because of all >his teams developments. The problem is that most people begrudge the >man so just dont like what he does. > >-- >Dean Liversidge Gates' virtual monopoly on the PC does have a few advantages. There are some people who just hate him blindly, and would slag off his software, no matter what it was like. Having said that, I do have the mpeg of him getting a custard pie in his face ;) Gavin ========================================================= Email: gavin.smith@cableol.co.uk IRC: Undernet's #TheLocal, #Sam-users, #Akeran (SparkY or SparkYY) #TheLocal webpage: http://www.infj.ulst.ac.uk/~ckh225 ICQ: 5099913 ========================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 02:01:44 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:57:45 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id CAA08872 Status: RO Content-Length: 2061 Lines: 44 At 9:26 pm +0000 12/2/98, BillRitman@aol.com wrote: >Let me repeat myself - Are you REALLY saying that the sales for Mac are not >worth going for? Because if you are then you must be round the bend. Mac may >be a small percentage of the global computer market, but it is still a billion >doller a year market. I *think* I'm right in saying that most of the games which have recently been converted from the PC to the Mac were not written by the original software houses. They were written by Mac-specific development teams, E.g. Duke Nukem 3D and Quake were, IIRC, developed by MacSoft. So not even those big companies want to employ their own Mac programmers. Counter-exaples include Worms by Ocean, developed by Team17. But their code is so badly optimised - ie not optimised for PowerPC chip at all - that they almost might as well not have bothered. See also Carmageddon. MacOS is probably the strongest of Windows' current competitors - forget O/S2 or Unix - but not one of the computer shops round here stock MacOS games or utilities either. As for libraries doing the work of converting code from one platform to another: well, yes, Microsoft did release a couple of versions of Mac Office, programmed with the PC source as far as possible but with a set of libraries to convert the Windows calls into MacOS calls. This was an abject failure; the programs were slow, bloated, unstable, and universally slated in reviews. Microsoft have, AFAIK, abandoned this programming technique for the Mac release of Office 98 - and the quality has improved as a result. HTH Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 02:07:09 1998 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:27:37 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Graham Goring Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time In-Reply-To: <199802121400.OAA14877@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Trial Version 3.03a <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1358 Lines: 41 In message <199802121400.OAA14877@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk>, Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> writes >i'm sorry, but these make me laugh. > > >> Hi, my name is Sharon, call me any time of the day or night at 1-664-410-4827 >> It is a free place where you can meet other people like yourself!!! (Or of the >other sex) >> >> >> 1-664-410-4827 >> 1-664-410-4827 >> 1-664-410-4827 >> 1-664-410-4827 >> >> Please call right away, I'm AWFUL Horny tonight. >> >> Sharon and friends. >how is this sam related? > >well, 1-664-410-4827 is clearly an american phone number. >and cookie is in the US at the moment. >how more-sam-related could you get? duh. Are you saying that Cookie actually works for a pornographic telephone service? Blimey, I though I recognised that sultry voice, as it took me to hithertoo unreached states of arousal by whispering to me the virtues of the SA1099 sound chip. Blimey. ;) Graham -- /====================================================\ +--------------+ | My proverb for this week: | |This Space For| | "The less bits, the less can go wrong... | | Hire - Ideal | | Unless you wobble something important at the back" | |For Weddings &| \==Graham Goring - graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk==/ | Bahmitzvas | My Website, coming to a server near you - SOON +--------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 02:52:40 1998 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:58:48 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Graham Goring Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980212105920.006b07e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Trial Version 3.03a <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 982 Lines: 26 In message <3.0.1.32.19980212105920.006b07e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk>, Simon Cooke writes >At 02:00 PM 2/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >>how is this sam related? >> >>well, 1-664-410-4827 is clearly an american phone number. >>and cookie is in the US at the moment. >>how more-sam-related could you get? duh. > >Damn. My secret's out. I'll have to find some other way to make enough >money to pay the rent here :) I was under the impression it was cheap to live there. Mmmm... The land of the 85c BigMac... Mmmm... Graham -- /====================================================\ +--------------+ | My proverb for this week: | |This Space For| | "The less bits, the less can go wrong... | | Hire - Ideal | | Unless you wobble something important at the back" | |For Weddings &| \==Graham Goring - graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk==/ | Bahmitzvas | My Website, coming to a server near you - SOON +--------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 03:24:23 1998 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:43:53 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Graham Goring Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Trial Version 3.03a <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1047 Lines: 29 In message , Mark Sturdy writes >On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Andrew Collier wrote: > >> >Now that has me totaly confused Simon. >> >> Didn't take much, did it? >> >> > Would you like ot have another go at >> >theat one because whichever way I read that it does not make sence. >> >> theat? sence? >> >> It's obvious that you're nervous because your spelling has gone to pot *again* > >Shut up, you dull, worthless little squirt. Hmm... This could be interesting. Graham -- /====================================================\ +--------------+ | My proverb for this week: | |This Space For| | "The less bits, the less can go wrong... | | Hire - Ideal | | Unless you wobble something important at the back" | |For Weddings &| \==Graham Goring - graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk==/ | Bahmitzvas | My Website, coming to a server near you - SOON +--------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 03:34:39 1998 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:27:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802130327.WAA10388@smtp2.erols.com> X-Mailer: HandStamp Pro 1.0 Subject: Re:Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Simon Cooke To: graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk, sam-users@nvg.unit.no X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 620 Lines: 15 >I was under the impression it was cheap to live there. > >Mmmm... The land of the 85c BigMac... Mmmm... Food, yes. Consumer electronics, yes. Housing, no. Especially when the equivalent place to live in England would be maybe 5 miles out of London. Or possibly Bayswater or Notting Hill. Everything else is roughly pound for dollar the same. 'sexpensive when you live in DC. Or even about 30 miles outside it (at a guess... Maybe a little more or less - I can't tell any more - been here too long) Simon Simon --- This message scribbled for you by hand on a Palmpilot. Please excuse brevity and spelling mistakes. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 03:34:47 1998 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:36:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802130336.WAA10243@smtp1.erols.com> X-Mailer: HandStamp Pro 1.0 Subject: Gits Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Simo To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 384 Lines: 15 Cookie - palm pilot Cookie - palm pilot To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Would the member of the mailing list who indiscriminately fired off Valentines cards to myself, Mark Sturdy, Adie Nunn, Graham Goring and Gavin Smith on Sunday please own up. It's not funny you know. Simon --- This message scribbled for you by hand on a Palmpilot. Please excuse brevity and spelling mistakes. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 03:44:29 1998 From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: Gits Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:43:00 -0000 Message-Id: <01bd3831$7b126d00$2c14a8c2@sparky> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 387 Lines: 13 > Would the member of the mailing list who indiscriminately fired off Valentines cards to myself, Mark Sturdy, Adie Nunn, Graham > Goring and Gavin Smith on Sunday please own up. > > It's not funny you know. > > Simon *sobs* It CAN'T have been an indiscriminate Valentine! *sobs* Please don't say it was :( Bob, tell him you really did send me it. Gavin (think it's time for bed...) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 07:46:23 1998 X-Warning: Original message contained 8-bit characters, however during the SMTP transport session the receiving system was unable to announce capability of receiving 8-bit SMTP (RFC 1651-1653), and as this message does not have MIME headers (RFC 2045-2049) to enable encoding change, we had very little choices. X-Warning: We ASSUME it is less harmful to add the MIME headers, and convert the text to Quoted-Printable, than not to do so, and to strip the message to 7-bits.. (RFC 1428 Appendix A) X-Warning: We don't know what character set the user used, thus we had to write these MIME-headers with our local system default value. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:43:07 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9802130743.AA21918@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Cleaning the stables X-Sun-Charset: ISO-8859-1 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id HAA12895 Status: RO Content-Length: 257 Lines: 12 > On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:03:59 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > > Jeg har tilbudt meg å gjøre det før jeg. > > I tried rot13 but it still didn't make any sense... :-) It wouldn't - try with a Norwegian-English dictionary. Mishapp. :/ -Frode > > imc > From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 09:36:16 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:26:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@holly To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: Re: Gits In-Reply-To: <199802130336.WAA10243@smtp1.erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 850 Lines: 29 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Simo wrote: > Cookie - palm pilot Er . . . (sound of someone trying to exercise more self-control than they have ever attempted in their life thus far) . . . is . . . does that . . . you . . . gngh. No, it's JUST TOO EASY! > Would the member of the mailing list who indiscriminately fired off Valentines cards to myself, Mark Sturdy, Adie Nunn, Graham Goring and Gavin Smith on Sunday please own up. Aha . . . you know, I was wondering about that. "To Cutey Pie, U are always on my mind." Did everyone else get the same? And how do you know they were indiscriminate? > This message scribbled for you by hand on a Palmpilot. Gmnf . . . nnnggghhhhh! (phew.) Luv, Mark "I'm bending over to tie my shoelaces and this bloke come up to me and says 'Mate, your shredded wheat's showing'. I think he was showing out." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 09:49:44 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: holly.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:45:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@holly To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A few questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 640 Lines: 20 On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Graham Goring wrote: > >> >Now that has me totaly confused Simon. > >> > >> Didn't take much, did it? > >> > >> > Would you like ot have another go at > >> >theat one because whichever way I read that it does not make sence. > >> > >> theat? sence? > >> > >> It's obvious that you're nervous because your spelling has gone to pot *again* > > > >Shut up, you dull, worthless little squirt. > > Hmm... This could be interesting. Unfortunately not: we are thrashing it out in private. And we're sending emails to each other discussing the above comments as well! Boom boom. From imc Fri Feb 13 10:35:50 1998 Subject: Re: Gits To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:35:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Sturdy" at Feb 13, 98 09:26:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 339 Lines: 12 On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:26:01 +0000 (GMT), Mark Sturdy said: > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > cc: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no What have I told you about this! > "I'm bending over to tie my shoelaces and this bloke come up to me and > says 'Mate, your shredded wheat's showing'. I think he was showing out." What on earth are you on about? imc From imc Fri Feb 13 10:36:53 1998 Subject: Re: Gits To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:36:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199802130336.WAA10243@smtp1.erols.com> from "Simo" at Feb 12, 98 10:36:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 424 Lines: 16 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:36:19 -0500 (EST), Simo said: > Cookie - palm pilot > > > Cookie - palm pilot > To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no What? > Would the member of the mailing list who indiscriminately fired off Valentines cards to myself, Mark Sturdy, Adie Nunn, Graham Goring and Gavin Smith on Sunday please own up. You mean that *wasn't* a spam message that I received on Sunday from alerter.v@valentines-day.org? imc From imc Fri Feb 13 10:37:45 1998 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:37:45 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 13, 98 01:57:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 192 Lines: 6 On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:57:45 +0000, Andrew Collier said: > MacOS is probably the strongest of Windows' current competitors Not really, since I wasn't aware you could get it for the PC. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 11:45:32 1998 From: Maria Rookyard To: sam-users Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:37:13 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 212 Lines: 17 > And just when did you get close enough to have a good view ???? Eh???? Was > I at work :-) > > > Martin Sometimes... and sometimes we just switched the hoover on so you wouldn't hear us :) Maria. x From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 11:45:33 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802131037.KAA16059@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 13, 98 01:57:45 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:41:09 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id LAA18448 Status: RO Content-Length: 916 Lines: 24 At 10:37 am +0000 13/2/98, Ian Collier wrote: >On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:57:45 +0000, Andrew Collier said: >> MacOS is probably the strongest of Windows' current competitors > >Not really, since I wasn't aware you could get it for the PC. You know what I mean.... who mentioned the PC anyway? MacOS probably has second place in the *operating systems* market. But even then, it's not considered worthwhile to stock MacOS software. Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 12:15:07 1998 Message-Id: <199802131202.MAA04473@relais1.orctel.co.uk> From: David Zambonini To: sam-users Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:01:23 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 697 Lines: 25 > >> MacOS is probably the strongest of Windows' current competitors > > > >Not really, since I wasn't aware you could get it for the PC. > > You know what I mean.... who mentioned the PC anyway? > > MacOS probably has second place in the *operating systems* market. But even > then, it's not considered worthwhile to stock MacOS software. > Hang on... are we still talking about PC's here? Asking across the desk quickly, apparently about 20% of all machines worldwide run UNIX or similar. MacOS doesn't even get a look in. Even though this is figure in me 'ead type stuff, it comes from Chris Smith, who programmed with Raphael Cecco at Microgen, so he knows a thing or two..... DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 13:21:32 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199802131316.NAA09489@crocus.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <7c91e2eb.34e36929@aol.com> from "BillRitman@aol.com" at "Feb 12, 98 04:27:03 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:16:09 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 460 Lines: 9 > Any company that wants to continue to receive current (up to date as opposed > to two years old) technical details on Windows 95/98/NT. Any company that > wants to produce major games for Win'95 (because Microsoft owns the code that > allows it to happen). Is that why I'm now a *free* member of the MS developer's connection (don't laugh - I wanted a patch, and this was the only way the *&*%ing site would let me in), with access to details about 95/NT? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 13:25:26 1998 Message-Id: <199802131320.NAA23690@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:19:47 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... References: <199802121340.NAA09371@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1339 Lines: 28 > > if there are already lots of different types of cpus, and > > motherboards compatible with them, then it doesn't matter if the cpu > > or the motherboard came first... but if a NEW, INCOMPATIBLE > > motherboard comes out you can be sure the manufacturers are tossers. > > Yep, but since the motherboards were already out at only 66Mhz, it > was i daft move to make a chip that wouldnt run on them, so they had > to get some manufacturers to build a new motherboard to go with it. > Remember the chip wasnt the first chip around. eeermmm, i think something's gone askew here... i (at least) was talking about a motherboard that was incompatible with non-INTEL cpus. i wasn't talking about incompatible bus speeds, but i was talking about a motherboard that was only compatible with CPUs that had a FIXED cpu mutliplier which resulted in the motherboard having no SeePU or jumpers to enable overclocking... only new Intel CPUs, as far as I'm aware, have a fixed clock multiplier, whereas AMD and Cyrix chip have the clock multiplier settings in the BIOS or the jumpers on the motherboard. ... and so, i reckoned, a motherboard that was ONLY compatible with the new intel cpus (socket 7) and not the other socket 7 cpus (amd, etc) was probably a step backwards, not a step forwards... ... look, forget it, if it helps From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 13:48:58 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213083611.006ae348@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:36:11 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Gits In-Reply-To: <199802131036.KAA16038@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <199802130336.WAA10243@smtp1.erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 510 Lines: 24 At 10:36 AM 2/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >Status: RO > >On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:36:19 -0500 (EST), Simo said: > >> Cookie - palm pilot >> >> >> Cookie - palm pilot >> To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > >What? Mailer software screw-up. Sorry! It's fixed now, promise. Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 13:48:58 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213083646.006a8a68@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:36:46 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 417 Lines: 12 >Sometimes... and sometimes we just switched the hoover on so you wouldn't >hear us :) I thought you said that you weren't going to tell him about that? Love and hugs, Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 14:00:20 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213083535.006a9250@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:35:35 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Gits In-Reply-To: References: <199802130336.WAA10243@smtp1.erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1992 Lines: 50 At 09:26 AM 2/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >> Cookie - palm pilot > >Er . . . (sound of someone trying to exercise more self-control than >they have ever attempted in their life thus far) . . . is . . . does that >. . . you . . . gngh. No, it's JUST TOO EASY! Yer wot? BTW: that extra-line-at-the-top thing was because whoever wrote handstamp didn't know the meaning of "single text-line field". >Aha . . . you know, I was wondering about that. "To Cutey Pie, U are >always on my mind." Did everyone else get the same? > >And how do you know they were indiscriminate? Well... they were all sent to members of SAM Users, at addresses that they'd used to post to the mailing list from recently. For example, I'm subbed to here as simon.cooke@umist.ac.uk, but my posts generally come from scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk. I post to Usenet as simon.cooke@erols.com, and as simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk. My web page address is sc@netfusion.co.uk, or simon.cooke@umist.ac.uk -- but the mail was addressed to scooke@nessie. Therefore... ... it would appear that the valentines were sent to SAM Users and SAM Users only -- as I've not received any valentines at other addresses, and a quick straw poll seems to reflect that with other people too. I also only received one at the nessie address -- nowhere else -- which seems to me to be too subtle for spammers; otherwise they'd have done all my addresses. It is also a real service; if it *is* spam, ie. it's using spammed messages to get people to use its service and drum up business, then it's very cleverly and subtly done, and I bow my hat to the people behind it. >> This message scribbled for you by hand on a Palmpilot. > >Gmnf . . . nnnggghhhhh! > >(phew.) Come on. Spill it. Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 15:56:41 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <92a428da.34e46b4e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:48:28 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A few questions Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 899 Lines: 30 In a message dated 12/02/98 15:34:54, you write: >On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > >> >But . . . Enigma went bust years ago! >> >> As far as I know they are still running. Though they did move offices >around >> two years ago. > >Definitely not - I went to school in Harrogate, and a friend of mine did >work experience with one of the companies that succeeded them. Enigma >Variations closed AT LEAST two years ago; some of the people who worked >there went on to form an internet services company called Smiley Ltd; >others formed a company called (ironically) Phoenix. Both are based in >Harrogate - Phoenix on North Park Road, just across from the old Enigma, >where I bought my SAM in 1991. > >Luv, > > > >Mark Well I can't be sure exactly how long ago it was as I did not make the arrangements. However, they were moving (they said) and wanted rid of the stock. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 15:56:43 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <20c7f9a1.34e46b50@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:48:30 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 545 Lines: 17 In a message dated 12/02/98 17:21:38, you write: >. > >Then *show* me some companies which have been bound by Microsoft in any >kind of reciprocal agreement to support only the Windows platform. > >Simon Ok, Corel. There was several items in the American 'PC Week On-line' internet magazine last year about their fall outs with Microsloth. As I understand it they are now being denied access to Win'98 development tools because they have refused to abandon support for Windows 3.1 products - and that is another Microsloth platform. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 15:56:43 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <4b5a12be.34e46b52@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:48:32 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 353 Lines: 16 In a message dated 12/02/98 17:21:39, you write: >>Did he mention Java? > >Unless he's talking about SmallTalk, I think we're running out of languages. > >Then again, he could be talking about P-Code, but that's MS only and only >works on Windows. > >Simon He didn't mention any language, he was talking about a concept if I read him right. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 16:07:21 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213105607.006b0918@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:56:07 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A few questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1528 Lines: 62 I no longer feel any compunction to stick to etiquette, so here's Bob's private email to me. If he can slander me in public, I can damn well repost his private emails. >From: BrenchleyR@aol.com >Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:48:33 EST >To: Simon.Cooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk >Subject: Re: A few questions > >Status: > >In a message dated 12/02/98 17:21:42, you write: > >>At 09:46 AM 2/12/98 EST, you wrote: >>>Don't call him Shirley, he may get upset. >> >>No, calling me a liar and saying that I closed down SAMCo when the proof >>points otherwise makes me upset, Bob. Calling me Shirley does not. > >You are aware as well as I am of the damage that your stupid article did at >the time. I've said several times all I have to say on the subject. BUT if you >continue to hold to a story that you have been told more than once is a lie >then that is up to you. > >I have never said that you closed down SAMCo, I have said, and will say again >if I have to, that the story in YS was ‘in part’ responsible for the ultimate >failier of SAMCo and therefore of SAM. >> >>If you're trying to make out that yours and Bill's comments should be taken >>as jokes, then by all means, I'll laugh at you. Oh, sorry, I'll laugh at >>your comments. > >Oh Simon. Grow up. >> >>Simon >> >> > >-- >Bob. > > > *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 16:07:22 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213105515.006afe98@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:55:15 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: A few questions Cc: BrenchleyR@aol.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2315 Lines: 61 I have reposted this to the list, as I'm not going to have this go on behind closed doors when you feel it's perfectly fine to slag me off in public. And frankly, I don't care if you feel it's bad etiquette or immoral - because if you're going to slander me, then I feel no compunction to follow those rules either. >You are aware as well as I am of the damage that your stupid article did at >the time. I've said several times all I have to say on the subject. BUT if you >continue to hold to a story that you have been told more than once is a lie >then that is up to you. >I have never said that you closed down SAMCo, I have said, and will say again >if I have to, that the story in YS was ‘in part’ responsible for the ultimate >failier of SAMCo and therefore of SAM. Bob -- check your facts!!! Your timing is *WRONG*. The issue of Your Sinclair it was mentioned in even publicised the fact that West Coast's rescue bid was going ahead, but there was still no news from that front! Please tell me *when* SAM Co folded. Then tell me *when* the article appeared. Then explain how the article had anything to do with SAMCo's collapse. I'm not going to drop this until you do at least that small thing. >>If you're trying to make out that yours and Bill's comments should be taken >>as jokes, then by all means, I'll laugh at you. Oh, sorry, I'll laugh at >>your comments. > >Oh Simon. Grow up. Bob, I'll grow up when you do. I'm going to be as stubborn as you, until you can produce some facts. I can produce scanned in pages from YS issue 83, detailing the exact date that the magazine was published. Can you do anything of the sort to back up your claim? Other than that, I refute your statement, and am going to fight you on this until you take back what you have said. Up until recently, I have been holding back on a number of matters -- including stuff like copyright rows over Prince of Persia, non-payment of programmers for games you have been selling under the Revelation label, etc. I no longer feel any kind of obligation to keep the peace. Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 16:07:23 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213105728.006b3e24@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:57:28 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <4b5a12be.34e46b52@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 462 Lines: 13 At 10:48 AM 2/13/98 EST, you wrote: >He didn't mention any language, he was talking about a concept if I read him >right. The thing is, while it's a nice idea in theory, it doesn't actually exist in practise yet. Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 16:28:20 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213111727.006a8620@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:17:27 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <20c7f9a1.34e46b50@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1107 Lines: 23 At 10:48 AM 2/13/98 EST, you wrote: >Ok, Corel. There was several items in the American 'PC Week On-line' internet >magazine last year about their fall outs with Microsloth. As I understand it >they are now being denied access to Win'98 development tools because they have >refused to abandon support for Windows 3.1 products - and that is another >Microsloth platform. Having just checked the site from top to toe, I can't find any references to this claim. If you can provide a URL, I'll gladly go there. What is interesting at the moment is that Corel is in deep financial shit, showing major profit losses over the past year. Corel is fighting back with a new product line, and incorporating voice-recognition technology into Word Perfect in an agreement with Dragon Technologies, but it's not doing too well. It also has ditched its Java Office Suite. Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 16:32:21 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213112531.006a8324@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:25:31 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Off Topic: Corel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2230 Lines: 50 Friday, February 13, 1998 Corel reopens Windows 3.1 By Margaret Kane August 25, 1997 3:10pm ZDNet News Microsoft Corp. may want everyone to think that Windows 95 has taken over the desktop, but users are still clinging to older versions of the company's operating system. To help them out, Corel Corp. today announced the release of its WordPerfect Suite 7 for Windows 3.1, an update that adds new Web-enabling features. A Corel spokeswoman said the update includes almost all of the features from the Win 95 version of the WordPerfect Suite 7, such as Internet connectivity from within applications, Netscape Communications Corp.'s Navigator, support for HTML, including conversion from WordPerfect format, and support for Standard Generalized Markup Language. "There is still a large user base out there, especially in government departments and legal departments," said Daniela Gaudert, of Corel. "We want to address their needs by updating the 16-bit version." That user base may be bigger than some people think. About 17.5 percent of all operating systems sold during 1996 were Windows 3.x or DOS, said Dan Kusnetzky, an analyst at International Data Corp., in Framingham, Mass. The installed base for those operating systems in 1996 was 110.6 million. "It's not at all unlikely for someone to bring out software for an older environment. Moving to Win 95 meant drivers weren't available, you had to go through a testing process, training, installation," said Kusnetzky. "I imagine Corel said, 'Here's an opportunity to go into an installed base of Windows 3.x users and help them to get better capabilities. And maybe we win over some who don't have Corel software.' " The move is not without precedent for Corel, Gaudert said. In January it released an upgrade to the DOS version of its WordPerfect suite, with new printer drivers and other enhancements. The Windows 3.1x suite is available for a street price of $425. More information is available at www.corel.com. *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From imc Fri Feb 13 16:39:58 1998 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:39:58 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980213105728.006b3e24@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Feb 13, 98 10:57:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 220 Lines: 7 On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:57:28 -0500, Simon Cooke said: > The thing is, while it's a nice idea in theory, it doesn't actually exist > in practise yet. ^^^^^^^^ Hey he's even spelling like an American now... :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 17:33:57 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980213105728.006b3e24@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> References: <4b5a12be.34e46b52@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:30:07 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id RAA28751 Status: RO Content-Length: 1816 Lines: 46 At 3:57 pm +0000 13/2/98, Simon Cooke wrote: >>He didn't mention any language, he was talking about a concept if I read him >>right. > >The thing is, while it's a nice idea in theory, it doesn't actually exist >in practise yet. I didn't want to mention this on the list - because there's no way I'm willing to publicly support Bob on this - but I have a counter-example... There are a set of libraries, called GameCode (included with MetroWerks' Codewarrior compiler) which - in theory - can be compiled for multiple platforms without modifying the source code. And it sort of works; in fact, I'm using them for a small project which may be finished in several years or so. In practice however, only the MacOS PPC version is really stable - 68K functions tend to crash a lot and the Win95 version is only half finished, eg no sound support yet. And Metrowerks have now cut support for it so no more official development will take place - though a few people are trying to arrange a deal for the source to go into PD so other clueful people can finish it. Also the resulting programs don't really act like proper MacOS applications. All in all, that example's a bit of a no-score draw... but I won't put it on the list because Bill would claim the point as his own, you know what I mean. See you around, Andrew PS. IRCing tonight? --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ ? From imc Fri Feb 13 18:34:01 1998 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:34:01 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 13, 98 05:30:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 515 Lines: 16 On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:30:07 +0000, Andrew Collier said: > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > I didn't want to mention this on the list Ooops! > There are a set of libraries, called GameCode (included with MetroWerks' > Codewarrior compiler) which - in theory - can be compiled for multiple > platforms without modifying the source code. "Multiple" being MacOS and Win95 - not exactly a complete set. "Dual" might have been a better word. [And surely, "there _is_ a set of libraries"? (shut up, pedant. -ed)] imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 19:07:21 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213132337.006ae468@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:23:37 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980213105728.006b3e24@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <4b5a12be.34e46b52@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1274 Lines: 30 At 05:30 PM 2/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >In practice however, only the MacOS PPC version is really stable - 68K >functions tend to crash a lot and the Win95 version is only half finished, >eg no sound support yet. And Metrowerks have now cut support for it so no >more official development will take place - though a few people are trying >to arrange a deal for the source to go into PD so other clueful people can >finish it. Also the resulting programs don't really act like proper MacOS >applications. > >All in all, that example's a bit of a no-score draw... but I won't put it >on the list because Bill would claim the point as his own, you know what I >mean. No, no, he can try, but it's not the case: It's a nice idea in theory, but as you've demonstrated, in practice it isn't a workable system. Yet. Bill was saying that these virtual systems exist and there's no reason not to use them. I'm saying that they don't exist yet, unless you include Java (which is unstable) or SmallTalk (which isn't widely supported). Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 19:18:43 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Disks for web page Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:10:22 GMT Message-ID: <34e59a35.30480481@mail.enterprise.net> References: <199802102047.VAA29823@mailserv.caiw.nl> <3.0.1.32.19980210162618.006ab3fc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <34e1e93f.20509692@mail.enterprise.net> In-Reply-To: <34e1e93f.20509692@mail.enterprise.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 504 Lines: 17 Has anyone got a copy of SAM Adventure Club disk issue 4 that they can send over. Mine's phuqed and I want it for my web page. Issue's 1,2,3,5,&6 will be on tomorrow - or today, depending when you read this (Saturday). When they are on, could someone (with freee or cheeep access) please put them in NVG's incoming dir please? I'll need to delete a few Zenobi games from some of the later issues, but they'll be on in due course... and remember, I said delete - as in erase. :) Bye, Dave Whitmore From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 20:02:00 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802131834.SAA17439@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 13, 98 05:30:07 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:56:24 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id UAA01723 Status: RO Content-Length: 1414 Lines: 38 At 6:34 pm +0000 13/2/98, Ian Collier wrote: >On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:30:07 +0000, Andrew Collier said: > >> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no >> I didn't want to mention this on the list > >Ooops! Indeed... >> There are a set of libraries, called GameCode (included with MetroWerks' >> Codewarrior compiler) which - in theory - can be compiled for multiple >> platforms without modifying the source code. > >"Multiple" being MacOS and Win95 - not exactly a complete set. "Dual" >might have been a better word. [And surely, "there _is_ a set of >libraries"? (shut up, pedant. -ed)] There were plans to include the Playstation too (yes, really) but that's been shelved along with the rest of it. Shame really - if it ever did get completed it could be very useful (more so for games than proper applications) and n many other platforms could be added arbitrarily; there's no reference to Macintosh system calls in my source code. Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ w From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Feb 13 20:06:00 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Sam adventure club Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:59:29 GMT Message-ID: <34e9a555.33328937@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 318 Lines: 17 Issues 1 2 3 5 & 6 of ye olde club disks are now at: http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/ADVLINK.HTM Just click on the piccies to download them. Will someone upload these to NVG please. I'll put the others on at a later date. I seem to have cocked up my counter on the index . :( Bye, Dave Whitmore From imc Fri Feb 13 22:37:52 1998 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:37:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 13, 98 07:56:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 330 Lines: 8 On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:56:24 +0000, Andrew Collier said: > and n many other platforms could be added arbitrarily; > there's no reference to Macintosh system calls in my source code. "Could" be added. We're back to the original point about expending time and effort to get it running on a different platform. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 00:12:23 1998 Message-Id: <199802140009.AAA08719@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:09:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Disks for web page In-reply-to: <34e59a35.30480481@mail.enterprise.net> References: <34e1e93f.20509692@mail.enterprise.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 181 Lines: 9 > send over. Mine's phuqed and I want it for my web page. Issue's irrelevent fact: i once knew a guy who's email address was phuqk@ ... well, it still makes me smile. you? dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 10:50:33 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802132237.WAA17922@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 13, 98 07:56:24 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:46:49 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id KAA17174 Status: RO Content-Length: 815 Lines: 22 At 10:37 pm +0000 13/2/98, Ian Collier wrote: >> and n many other platforms could be added arbitrarily; >> there's no reference to Macintosh system calls in my source code. > >"Could" be added. We're back to the original point about expending >time and effort to get it running on a different platform. Indeed so. Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 11:30:43 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:28:00 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1749 Lines: 49 In a message dated 13/02/98 17:32:00, you write: >At 3:57 pm +0000 13/2/98, Simon Cooke wrote: >>>He didn't mention any language, he was talking about a concept if I read >him >>>right. >> >>The thing is, while it's a nice idea in theory, it doesn't actually exist >>in practise yet. > >I didn't want to mention this on the list - because there's no way I'm >willing to publicly support Bob on this - but I have a counter-example... > >There are a set of libraries, called GameCode (included with MetroWerks' >Codewarrior compiler) which - in theory - can be compiled for multiple >platforms without modifying the source code. And it sort of works; in fact, >I'm using them for a small project which may be finished in several years >or so. > >In practice however, only the MacOS PPC version is really stable - 68K >functions tend to crash a lot and the Win95 version is only half finished, >eg no sound support yet. And Metrowerks have now cut support for it so no >more official development will take place - though a few people are trying >to arrange a deal for the source to go into PD so other clueful people can >finish it. Also the resulting programs don't really act like proper MacOS >applications. > >All in all, that example's a bit of a no-score draw... but I won't put it >on the list because Bill would claim the point as his own, you know what I >mean. > >See you around, > >Andrew > >PS. IRCing tonight? > > Well I never thought I see that day, Andrew Collier offering me support :) Seriously though, thanks. We may not always see eye to eye, you do even spend short spells in the kill-file, but it is nice to know that we can agree on some things. I have not yet put my real experiance into this thread, keep reading. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 11:30:45 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <673b7ea0.34e57fc7@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:28:03 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Cross-platform coding - was Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3258 Lines: 70 In a message dated 13/02/98 19:21:11, you write: >> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no >> I didn't want to mention this on the list > >Ooops! > >> There are a set of libraries, called GameCode (included with MetroWerks' >> Codewarrior compiler) which - in theory - can be compiled for multiple >> platforms without modifying the source code. > >"Multiple" being MacOS and Win95 - not exactly a complete set. "Dual" >might have been a better word. [And surely, "there _is_ a set of >libraries"? (shut up, pedant. -ed)] > >imc I have not yet put my real experience into this thread, so here goes. I started as a programmer, in 1976, on main-frame computers (ICL1900 and 2960) and DEC VAX mini computers. One of my projects in the late 70s was to write a compiler for the decision table based language FILETAB (marketed by the National Computer Centre - there is a site on the web that deals with it, I think) so that programs written on the ICL machine would run unaltered (or with very minimal alters) on the DEC VAX and PDP11 machines. Given a selection of programs written on the ICL machine, the DEC compiler gradually evolved until it could handle over 90% of the code and produce working results. A second program then carried out optimization for the VAX or PDP11 system. When the project first started there was only Assembler and Fortran 77 available on the VAX (our twin machines were numbers 5 and 6 in the UK). All early tests were done with Fortran 77 (very much like Sinclair Basic in a lot of ways) when the ideas were proved they were converted to assembler. Later in the project I also made modes to the ICL versions of FILETAB so that new programs written were even easier to make cross-platform. Now I find it impossible to believe that something I was doing in the late 70s, where I even had to write the compilers myself, cannot be done now in the late 90s when you have cross-platform languages like C and C++ to name but two. It is the job of the compiler to implement machine specifics either within itself or through library routines. The programmer, if he is using good tools, doesn't (or shouldn't) have to worry his head over what machine the code is going to end up running on. Another experience was running a multi-format software development team in the early to mid 80s, producing budget software for the likes of Mastertronics and Blue Ribbon, as well as full price titles for CRL and Timex (US). The call was for NEW software, not re-releases, and for at least Spectrum, C64 (with VIC20 if poss), BBC/Electron and MSX. The approach then was to design machine specific routines (like sprite handlers and loading routines) that were used across a wide range of games. The core game code was then developed to produce a playable game on the least powerful machine we were targeting. Once up and running the code was recompiled for each of the other formats, with some new features being added to soak up the extra space/power. Those are my two examples of cross-platform development. Both show a different approach to producing the same result. Both worked in that they produced usable programs on different machines without the programmer needing to re- write large parts of his code to port his new program. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 12:21:14 1998 From: Maria Rookyard To: sam-users Subject: Re: 1-664-410-4827 Sexy, hot, FREE time Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:16:16 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 479 Lines: 21 > >Sometimes... and sometimes we just switched the hoover on so you wouldn't > >hear us :) > > I thought you said that you weren't going to tell him about that? > > Love and hugs, > Simon Oops. Sorry, I forgot that was supposed to be our little secret; although now I come to think of it, he *did* ask a few times how come there were so many crumbs on the floor when I was always hoovering... Suppose that means you daren't come home at Easter now? ]:-> Kisses, Maria. x From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 12:49:50 1998 Message-ID: <1D4DDA3001F73000@c2gate.tcom.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:24:00 +0000 From: Dan Doore Organization: * To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Subject: RE: Disks for web page Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.30A MHS/SMF to SMTP Gateway X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 301 Lines: 14 > irrelevent fact: i once knew a guy who's email address was > phuqk@ ... I have a lixu@ on my mail list, I also have a test user called Mike Oxenfire in my NT domain. Nobody's spotted it yet :) Dan. Work: dandoore@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 15:13:42 1998 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:39:22 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Adie Subject: shut up! MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 161 Lines: 7 Why are there about 50 messages here about PCs, Windows etc? *yawn* Adie http://www.scooter.demon.co.uk Blind Youth Fanzine HQ + Travis, Inaura, The Needles From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 15:42:50 1998 Message-ID: <3A4DDA3001F73000@c2gate.tcom.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:26:00 +0000 From: Dan Doore Organization: * To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no (Sam Users Mailing List) Subject: RE: shut up! Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.30A MHS/SMF to SMTP Gateway X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 279 Lines: 12 > Why are there about 50 messages here about PCs, Windows etc? *yawn* Bee's in bonnets, and all that. I like to post something silly at times like this to break it up a bit :) Dan. Work: dandoore@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 16:07:37 1998 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:05:38 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Sturdy To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Disks for web page In-Reply-To: <199802140009.AAA08719@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: pyumi@mail.csv.warwick.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 416 Lines: 13 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Dave Hooper wrote: > irrelevent fact: i once knew a guy who's email address was > phuqk@ ... > > well, it still makes me smile. you? Mmm! Sounds like a Warwick University address . . . _ph_ysics _u_ndergraduate, plus two random identification letters. I'm doing _ph_ilosphy, and pyumi has been formally designated as standing for "Piss-Your-Underwear Masturbators Institiute". Nice! Mark From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 16:17:25 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:14:06 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Off topic: Cross-platform coding X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id QAA20133 Status: RO Content-Length: 3228 Lines: 73 At 11:28 am +0000 14/2/98, BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: >>All in all, that example's a bit of a no-score draw... but I won't put it >>on the list because Bill would claim the point as his own, you know what I >>mean. >Well I never thought I see that day, Andrew Collier offering me support :) I *almost* can't believe I'm reading this.... It's hard to be sure even whether you're being sarcastic or not.... >Seriously though, thanks. We may not always see eye to eye, you do even spend >short spells in the kill-file, but it is nice to know that we can agree on >some things. We agree when you get things right for a change.... BTW that was a very quick 30 days on the killfile, it only took 24 by my clock. What a strange coincidence that my removal from your killfile hapenned to coincide with my accidentally posting a message you could take as being positive.... >I have not yet put my real experiance into this thread, keep reading. Yeeeeesssss In "the early days" of computing you so like telling us about, I imagine you'll have been working on text-mode programs, at best. And now, if I write a program in C using only standard functions I can quite rightly expect it to compile and run on PCs, Macs, Unix boxes - you name it: if it's got a decent C compiler, it'll work. But this thread is about mainstream applications and games. We're talking Windows, Dialogue boxes, Menus, graphics and sounds. Elements which are handled in a fundamentally different way on different platforms. Eg if I wanted to draw a graphic in a Window on a Mac, I'd store it as a PICT in the resource fork and refer to it by a number. If I wanted to do that in X, I'd store it as an XPM (?) and refer to it by name (?). Are you saying the compiler would translate between those two? No way on earth could I write platform-independent source code, and expect it to work like a proper Mac application on a Mac, like a proper Windows application on WIn95, and a proper X application on Unix. Or at least not yet. The libraries you're talking about don't exist. Gamecode was an example of a system which tries to do that - but doesn't succeed very well. There are no windows, no dialogue boxes - your code is expected to fill the screen usefully and do everything for itself. Arcade-style games can just about get away with that, but it's hardly suitable for a utility program. Plus Gamecode does not exactly support MacOs niceties like AppleEvents, Scripting, resource forks etc, and MacOS was the development platform... The library is not finished, and may never be. Cross-platform development libraries are a nice idea in theory, but in practice there *aren't* any which are suitable for writing proper applications with. Not yet. Andrew --- +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Collier | LOKTLOKTNVS'n'0TTDS'n'3LOKTLOKTYRUAQT1YRUAT3 | | 1B NatSci at Selwyn | ICUQ4LADB4U2R1ICXp2M£UICXp4XTC | | Contact: asc25@cam.ac.uk | 1-0 1-0B9'n'RTB4IOUATUR32NV0 | | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | ICAG#2?RSVPASAP'nIC.B2KTICQTRIP | +----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 16:23:15 1998 From: Gouranga@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:18:42 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Leeds!!! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 338 Lines: 11 Right, seeing as the Leeds show is precisely two weeks away, is anyone interested in going? Of course, while we're there, we'd be going to the show on the saturday as well... Dan, you up for a couple of mad nights? Stefan, you able to wangle a decent trip over for more of the same? And anyone else? Get yer drinking boots on... Colin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 16:27:45 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: sskardon@argonet.co.uk (Stewart Skardon) To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 16:25:56 X-Mailer: VTi Internet Email reader 1.09 : aa Subject: Web site update. Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 651 Lines: 28 Hello everyone, just to let you know that I have updated my SAM pages again today. I've added a couple more disk images, of demos. once again, any input would be greatfully received. Lotsaluv, Stewart. -- _ (_'tewart email : sskardon@argonet.co.uk ,_)kardon http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/stewart/ * * * NEW - Stewart's SAM Information Pages. * * * http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon/sampages/ Crashed Magazine - The SAM Coupe and ZX Spectrum Magazine. Crashed WWW Site http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/sskardon Crashed Email - crashed@argonet.co.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 16:32:11 1998 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:29:30 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Sturdy To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Off topic: Cross-platform coding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: pyumi@mail.csv.warwick.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 613 Lines: 14 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Andrew Collier wrote: > At 11:28 am +0000 14/2/98, BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > > >Seriously though, thanks. We may not always see eye to eye, you do even spend > >short spells in the kill-file, but it is nice to know that we can agree on > >some things. > > We agree when you get things right for a change.... Nice one, our kid. Next time, why don't you try "I am making a point of being an insuffrably arrogant cunt because I really do want you to ignore me and my breathtakingly snotty emails even when I do have a serious point that completely destroys the other person's argument." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 17:25:18 1998 From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: Off topic: Cross-platform coding Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:21:22 -0000 Message-Id: <01bd396c$f8810c60$1114a8c2@sparky> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1031 Lines: 23 Mark Sturdy wrote: >> We agree when you get things right for a change.... > >Nice one, our kid. Next time, why don't you try "I am making a point of >being an insuffrably arrogant cunt because I really do want you to ignore >me and my breathtakingly snotty emails even when I do have a serious point >that completely destroys the other person's argument." Oooh Mr Controversy strikes again. How come when the entire list decides to disagree with Bob/Bill, you pipe up with a couple of swear words and a few insults, in an attempt to start a flame war? What has the above paragraph got to do with the (extremely off-topic, and getting very dull) thread? Can't we get back to talking about SAM instead of PC's and fighting with each other? Gavin ========================================================= Email: gavin.smith@cableol.co.uk IRC: Undernet's #TheLocal, #Sam-users, #Akeran (SparkY or SparkYY) #TheLocal webpage: http://www.infj.ulst.ac.uk/~ckh225 ICQ: 5099913 ========================================================= From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 18:32:43 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:26:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@lily To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Off topic: cross-platform coding Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1101 Lines: 21 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, SparkY wrote: > Oooh Mr Controversy strikes again. How come when the entire list decides to > disagree with Bob/Bill, you pipe up with a couple of swear words and a few > insults, in an attempt to start a flame war? What has the above paragraph > got to do with the (extremely off-topic, and getting very dull) thread? I was commenting on the sentence above because I just didn't belive that there was a human being alive incapable of writing it. I'm not attempting to start a flame war. Do you think I'm mad? It's just that he REALLY GETS ON MY TITS!!! Anyway, just because most of what Bob says is the exact opposite of what the rest of us believe to be unquestionably true, I don't see that as any kind of a reason to say label Bob/Bill as the baddies, and everyone else as the goodies and always stick to those lines. Because (1) some of us have certain characteristics that other people on the list intensely dislike, and (2) Bob is not unquestionably, irredeemably evil, which is why I don't think hurling insults EVERY TIME he says anything is the way to go. Mark From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 18:42:15 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: muon.mono.org: unc owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:39:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Tim Paveley To: Sam Users Mailing List Subject: Off-Topic, Flames, WebRing, Shows. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1414 Lines: 44 WebRing > Seems to be down, at least www.netfusion.co.uk appears to no longer have a DNS entry. unc@muon<1> nslookup www.netfusion.co.uk Server: tachyon.mono.org Address: 138.40.17.10 *** tachyon.mono.org can't find www.netfusion.co.uk: Non-existent host/domain I seem to recall cookie saying he was looking for a new home, anyone knwo the goss? Flames> About three weeks ago I remember telling the nice young lady who works in the cheltenham spod-cafe that I'd just got through 130 emails in 30mins, she looked shocked until I told her that most of them were flames, so I only needed to scan them lightly for amusement before deleting. Off-Topic> Today I deleted almost all my email just on the strength of the subject headers. Perhaps we should have a convention of including the string [RELEV] in the subject line of any emails that are actually Sam related ;) Shows> Did intend to get to the leeds show this time around, but money tight I'm afraidy. Given recent rows, whats the turn out at quedgly going to be like this time? I can possibly offer a bit of floor space as well, as long as whoever will praise EGGBuM for at least 15minutes and keep off Sam Politics ;) ....@/ Keep Sane People. .............................................................................@/ Unc - Tim Paveley - Moderator of "The Games Room" & "Ascii Animations" http://www.mono.org/~unc/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 19:13:49 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:11:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... In-reply-to: <199802131320.NAA23690@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> References: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1759 Lines: 37 > > > if there are already lots of different types of cpus, and > > > motherboards compatible with them, then it doesn't matter if the cpu > > > or the motherboard came first... but if a NEW, INCOMPATIBLE > > > motherboard comes out you can be sure the manufacturers are tossers. > > > > Yep, but since the motherboards were already out at only 66Mhz, it > > was i daft move to make a chip that wouldnt run on them, so they had > > to get some manufacturers to build a new motherboard to go with it. > > Remember the chip wasnt the first chip around. > eeermmm, i think something's gone askew here... > i (at least) was talking about a motherboard that was incompatible > with non-INTEL cpus. i wasn't talking about incompatible bus speeds, > but i was talking about a motherboard that was only compatible with > CPUs that had a FIXED cpu mutliplier which resulted in the > motherboard having no SeePU or jumpers to enable overclocking... > only new Intel CPUs, as far as I'm aware, have a fixed clock > multiplier, whereas AMD and Cyrix chip have the clock multiplier > settings in the BIOS or the jumpers on the motherboard. > > .. and so, i reckoned, a motherboard that was ONLY compatible with > the new intel cpus (socket 7) and not the other socket 7 cpus (amd, > etc) was probably a step backwards, not a step forwards... Sorry I was generalising about x86 motherboards, but as far as i am aware, the new intel socket 7 chips are not set to a clock speed, there are two pins on the chip for the multiplier selector, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 2/5 yet hte intel MMX data sheet says it only supports the 2/5 (ie 2.5x ) ratio, hmmm, strange that mine runs fine at 1/3, 3x. > .. look, forget it, if it helps Erm, forget what ?? :-) -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 19:18:41 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:15:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@lily To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1910 Lines: 42 Isn't this a bit off-topic? On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Dean Liversidge wrote: > > > > if there are already lots of different types of cpus, and > > > > motherboards compatible with them, then it doesn't matter if the cpu > > > > or the motherboard came first... but if a NEW, INCOMPATIBLE > > > > motherboard comes out you can be sure the manufacturers are tossers. > > > > > > Yep, but since the motherboards were already out at only 66Mhz, it > > > was i daft move to make a chip that wouldnt run on them, so they had > > > to get some manufacturers to build a new motherboard to go with it. > > > Remember the chip wasnt the first chip around. > > > eeermmm, i think something's gone askew here... > > i (at least) was talking about a motherboard that was incompatible > > with non-INTEL cpus. i wasn't talking about incompatible bus speeds, > > but i was talking about a motherboard that was only compatible with > > CPUs that had a FIXED cpu mutliplier which resulted in the > > motherboard having no SeePU or jumpers to enable overclocking... > > only new Intel CPUs, as far as I'm aware, have a fixed clock > > multiplier, whereas AMD and Cyrix chip have the clock multiplier > > settings in the BIOS or the jumpers on the motherboard. > > > > .. and so, i reckoned, a motherboard that was ONLY compatible with > > the new intel cpus (socket 7) and not the other socket 7 cpus (amd, > > etc) was probably a step backwards, not a step forwards... > > > Sorry I was generalising about x86 motherboards, but as far as i am > aware, the new intel socket 7 chips are not set to a clock speed, > there are two pins on the chip for the multiplier selector, > 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 2/5 > yet hte intel MMX data sheet says it only supports the 2/5 (ie 2.5x ) > ratio, hmmm, strange that mine runs fine at 1/3, 3x. > > > .. look, forget it, if it helps > > Erm, forget what ?? :-) > -- > Dean Liversidge > From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 19:50:25 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Off topic: Cross-platform coding Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:45:10 GMT Message-ID: <34eee5df.19704008@mail.enterprise.net> References: <01bd396c$f8810c60$1114a8c2@sparky> In-Reply-To: <01bd396c$f8810c60$1114a8c2@sparky> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 351 Lines: 19 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:21:22 -0000, you wrote: >Can't we get back to talking about SAM instead of PC's and fighting with >each other? > >Gavin We need to get back to talking about SAM and fighting with each other? :) Well it could be read like that.. oh never mind. :) Bye, Dave Whitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/INDEX.HTM From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 19:55:49 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:53:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@lily To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Off topic: Cross-platform coding In-Reply-To: <34eee5df.19704008@mail.enterprise.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 244 Lines: 12 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Dave wrote: > >Can't we get back to talking about SAM instead of PC's and fighting with > >each other? > > > >Gavin > > We need to get back to talking about SAM and fighting with each other? Ha! Nice one our kid. Mark From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 20:09:42 1998 Message-ID: <34E66835.33DA@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:59:49 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 105 Lines: 6 Quick SAM related question.... What alternative colours can the feet be bought in - if at all? David From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 20:16:35 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:12:51 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Off-topic: Cross Platform Programming Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 8359 Lines: 200 In a message dated 12/02/98 22:12:11, you write: > > Before I go on, I'd like to ask Bill exactly what experience he has in the > business world of programming? Because he's very opinionated about it. If you had to have experience of something to have a knowledge of something then there would not be many knowledgeable people about. And if you needed experience to hold an opinion, well where would opinion polls be? > > Because I, for a start, am in the thick of it at the moment. It's my > profession. I am paid to do this. And that makes you and expert? Just because you get paid for it? Sorry, that does not hold true everytime. Many an expert goes unpaid, many get paid who just bumble through. So don't go getting on your high horse JUST because you earn a living in computers. > [snip] > >this not EXACTLY the reason many new games are coming out in Win95 form > >because '95 handles screen sizing, memory and a host of other things? > > Yes, but this is *NOT* an insignificant task to perform!!!! > Which is my point. The core code is generally *MUCH* smaller than the rest > of it. Right. So we divide into: I/O, Control (memory management, file handling and the like) and actual 'work'. Work is the same on each platform, I/O is normally handles by calls to a system (BIOS/GUI) and control is normally handled by the operating system. > > Not to mention that ways of accessing databases vary from system to system > -- whether you're using DAO, ODBC, JDBC, etc etc etc etc etc. Well I wasn't just talking of database type programs, but when you do you are after all handling data. You give a database a packet of information, you read a packet of information - you interface with your own format if you need to. > > The only common part is SQL. > > File access, file permissions, properties, ways of storing user profile > information, network access, network code, etc etc etc *ALL* vary > tremendously from platform to platform. And all are part of the operating system, not the application program. Where the application program interfaces with the operating system you may need some interface code, but this is written once only regardless of how many programs you write. Along comes a new platform, you write the interface code, and once one of your programs is up and running then the others follow in quick succession. > > This is one reason why I hate PC's. And it's surprising that they work as > well as they do. > > >Doesn't MACOS have routines that do the same jod and Windows routines then? > >Like get me a character, print it to this window. True that actual > interface > >code is different but the core code of a program would be the same - and > you > >only have to develop the interface side once for each platform. > > Yes, and no. And you've just quoted my point -- but the interface code in a > complex program can be the /majority/ of the program!!! But even if it was the MAJORITY (which I doubt) you only write it ONCE, then use it for every program. Let me explain in simpler terms. in Basic you say PRINT "This is a message" and it is printed to the current stream. In machine code you either call the ROMs PRINT routine or you write your own. But you don't write your own EVERY time you sit down to write a new program do you? You file the routine and use it over and over again. > > I'm updating legacy Visual Basic 3.0, C and IBM370 Assembler code to VB5.0 > and Visual C++. The majority of the code is interface upon interface upon > interface. There's an old rule -- the 80/20 rules -- which states that 80% > of the work is fluff, 20% is the real stuff. That 80% includes error > handling, data management, user interfaces... you name it. And the only > thing I've mentioned so far that will remain the same from platform to > platform is (possibly) the error handling code. So why have you not automated large parts of the conversion? > > >> Corel --> Not really much of a development house. Apart from their Corel > >> Draw flagship product, a not inconsiderable part of their product range > are > >> actually redistributed 3rd party products, or technology acquisitions > from > >> smaller companies. Their Unix products seem surprisingly behind the > times > >> -- Corel Draw, for example, is only on revision 3.5 for Unix. > > > >What has the number of revisions to do with it? > > In the case of Corel software, it corresponds directly to the number of > features available to the user in the packages. The current version is 8, > which has roughly 5 times the features of version 4. But version 1, 2 and 3 were not produced on other systems. AFAIK. Version number only really work on a particular platform. > [snip] > > You're right, perhaps, about them not doing it in ways that would make life > easier, but major revision numbers -- at least for large companies such as > Microsoft and Corel, indicate a large change in the functionality of the > program, and for Corel the revision numbers are stepped indentically across > the product line. If they are, they are the only company that does it, but I bow to your closer knowledge of Corel if you say that is so. > >Try telling the millions of OS/2 users it is a dead operating system :) > > Gimme a box to stand on, and a large enough forum, and I'll tell them. > > How many games have been released on OS/2 recently? Or rather, let's take a > bit more of a wider view -- how many aisles of software are devoted to the > OS/2 platform in your local software shop? I'm guessing that it isn't many. OS/2 based machines run the majority of DOS PC games, it is only the new onse that require Win'95 that don't. But most OS/2 users are in a more serious mould anyway. As for aisles of software, OS/2 users have a respectable software base but can always run other software if they want to. [snip] > >And so Adobe are the ideal example of what I'm on about - now WHY do other > >companies not follow the lead? > > What? start out on one platform, find out they can make more money by > supporting another platform instead, and move to that one, but because > they've got the expertise they still support the original platform? Yep! Sounds a very good line to me. > > Or wait until a bigger company comes along to pay them to produce software > for their platform? Another nice way. > > Or write software who's only real virtue is that it's a highly portable > information transmission system? Good thinking there. But you forget the other one. See a market that is mot being exploited with your tyoe of product and go for it. > [snip] > > Long term, yes. Short term, no. Most computer companies can only afford to > look at the short term because of the speed at which the market changes. If > they have too much of a long-term plan, they can go bust -- unless they > take the time to grow correctly, which many of them cannot afford to do[1]. > Possibly this will all change with the advent of Rhapsody, but somehow I > doubt it. > > >> Not if it kills you in the process. > > > >If others had take that attitude we would still be swimming in the sea > >ourselves. Thank heaven some people set their sights a little higher than > >others. > > > Are you talking about "survival of the fittest"? No, I'm talking about an idea I once read about. If you set you sights heigher than those around you, then by their standards even your failurs will be successes. > > If so, don't you think that Microsoft is evidently a good case of this? Oh you, don;t get me wrong these - even though there software is sh*t, they dream big. > > (Oh god.. I'm going to have people thinking I'm an MS lover here.. but I'm > not -- honest -- it's just that they've (a) done very well for themselves > and (b) they've been doing things surpringly right recently... I was > astonished...) I would question (b), but at least NT is not too bad. > > > >> No, it just displays ignorance of business practices and facts in the > real > >> world. > > > >Oh, and what you have said does not show exactly the same failing? > > I don't think so. I'd like to put it to the vote. Or get some other people > in on this argument. Preferably people working for large-ish software > companies. > > Simon Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 20:19:49 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <5485d674.34e5fbeb@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:17:45 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 227 Lines: 14 In a message dated 14/02/98 20:05:48, you write: > > Quick SAM related question.... > > What alternative colours can the feet be bought in - if at all? > > David > > > Who would want to buy SAM feet???? Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 20:27:51 1998 Message-ID: <34E66DC5.5EB6@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:23:33 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? References: <5485d674.34e5fbeb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 505 Lines: 23 BillRitman@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 14/02/98 20:05:48, you write: > > > > > Quick SAM related question.... > > > > What alternative colours can the feet be bought in - if at all? > > Who would want to buy SAM feet???? > > Bill. Someone who had them amputated? Nah ... I'm just wondering if they can be got in any other colours.... I'm about to decorate my computer room and I'd like to change the colour scheme to match the walls ... Sounds like a sensible reason to me... :) David From imc Sat Feb 14 20:42:01 1998 Subject: Re: Off topic: Cross-platform coding To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:42:01 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Feb 14, 98 04:14:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1028 Lines: 23 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:14:06 +0000, Andrew Collier said: > Eg if I > wanted to draw a graphic in a Window on a Mac, I'd store it as a PICT in > the resource fork and refer to it by a number. If I wanted to do that in X, > I'd store it as an XPM (?) and refer to it by name (?). For the record... It depends what sort of graphic you want; there are two models. In the first model you create an XImage which is a structure in memory containing pixels; you fill the pixels in and then copy it (or part of it) into the window. In the second you can either draw directly on the window or create a Pixmap which you intend to copy into the window later; Pixmaps and windows are collectively referred to as drawables and are represented by numbers. XImages are used for displaying random bit patterns (like GIFs or emulated Sam Coupe screens*) whereas drawables are used for most other things like drawing shapes or text. imc * Call this offtopic, would you? :-) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 20:52:43 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SAM cock-ups Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:47:32 GMT Message-ID: <34f20296.27056867@mail.enterprise.net> References: <01bd396c$f8810c60$1114a8c2@sparky> <34eee5df.19704008@mail.enterprise.net> In-Reply-To: <34eee5df.19704008@mail.enterprise.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 659 Lines: 18 Wasn't someone saying about their modulator causing colour 15 to be wrong on their SAM not so long ago? I've just discovered why nobody was impressed with the digitised piccies that I did for the review of the 1st Gloucester show on the last adventure club disk. Colour 15 was wrong on my SAM, but I didn't realise it at the time and I spent ages altering the palette on the pictures so they looked alright on /my/ SAM. I remember Dave Ledbury phoning and saying that the pic of him was really bad. Ha ha ha! So bloody funny! :) Sorry, I just thought I'd share that with you. Bye, Dave Whitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/INDEX.HTM From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 20:59:17 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:54:03 GMT Message-ID: <34f30364.27262826@mail.enterprise.net> References: <5485d674.34e5fbeb@aol.com> <34E66DC5.5EB6@postmaster.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <34E66DC5.5EB6@postmaster.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 587 Lines: 28 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:23:33 -0800, you wrote: >> >> Who would want to buy SAM feet???? >> >> Bill. > >Someone who had them amputated? > >Nah ... I'm just wondering if they can be got in any other colours.... >I'm about to >decorate my computer room and I'd like to change the colour scheme to >match the walls ... Bob's your man for this question. I'll quote it all so he can see why you want them - and indeed, see the message at all .:) >Sounds like a sensible reason to me... :) You strange boy! :) Bye, Dave Whitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/INDEX.HTM From imc Sat Feb 14 21:23:30 1998 Subject: Re: Cross-platform coding - was Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:23:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <673b7ea0.34e57fc7@aol.com> from "BrenchleyR@aol.com" at Feb 14, 98 06:28:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1679 Lines: 34 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:28:03 EST, BrenchleyR@aol.com said: > I started as a programmer, in 1976, on main-frame computers (ICL1900 and 2960) > and DEC VAX mini computers. One of my projects in the late 70s was to write a > compiler for the decision table based language FILETAB > Now I find it impossible to believe that something I was doing in the late > 70s, where I even had to write the compilers myself, cannot be done now in the > late 90s when you have cross-platform languages like C and C++ to name but > two. But you had to write the compiler yourself. I think the point was that companies don't want to spend money doing that; and presumably in the 70s you didn't have to do fancy graphics and GUI interfaces. C and C++ are not as cross-platform as you might think. Even something as simple as reading a single keystroke can't be done in portable C. ANSI C does not even guarantee you that a keyboard exists. > Another experience was running a multi-format software development team in > the early to mid 80s > The approach then was to design machine specific routines (like sprite > handlers and loading routines) that were used across a wide range of games. Again, you had to design them first. I discovered today that IBM released a product called ViaVoice Gold last Thursday. It allows you to dictate at normal talking speed and understands complicated things like "Please write to Mr. Wright and tell him that he is right." It is for Windows 95 and NT. Now if there were anyone writing products for OS/2 you'd think it would be IBM, but apparently they have decided it's not worth the effort. Perhaps you should advise them on how easy it is. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Feb 14 21:38:28 1998 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:36:03 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Sturdy To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Gits In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980213083535.006a9250@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: pyumi@mail.csv.warwick.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 984 Lines: 30 On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Simon Cooke wrote: > At 09:26 AM 2/13/98 +0000, you wrote: > >> Cookie - palm pilot > > > >Er . . . (sound of someone trying to exercise more self-control than > >they have ever attempted in their life thus far) . . . is . . . does that > >. . . you . . . gngh. No, it's JUST TOO EASY! > > Yer wot? Well, it's sort of . . . thing, isn't it? You know - it sounds, er, rude, doesn't it? > ... it would appear that the valentines were sent to SAM Users and SAM > Users only -- as I've not received any valentines at other addresses Aw! (see above) > >> This message scribbled for you by hand on a Palmpilot. > > Come on. Spill it. And then wipe it up, I hope. (On what, anyway?) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 00:18:55 1998 From: Maria Rookyard To: sam-users Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:10:56 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 607 Lines: 39 > > > Quick SAM related question.... > > > > > > What alternative colours can the feet be bought in - if at all? > > > > Who would want to buy SAM feet???? > > > > Bill. > > Someone who had them amputated? > > Nah ... I'm just wondering if they can be got in any other colours.... > I'm about to > decorate my computer room and I'd like to change the colour scheme to > match the walls ... > > Sounds like a sensible reason to me... :) > > David Have you considered spray painting them? Martin. Alternatively you could just paint the room to match your existing (SAM) feet! Maria. x From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 00:20:56 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980214191534.006b0ce0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:15:34 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Gits In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980213083535.006a9250@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 747 Lines: 20 At 09:36 PM 2/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >> Yer wot? > >Well, it's sort of . . . thing, isn't it? You know - it sounds, er, rude, >doesn't it? Cookie from now on the words "PALM PILOT" will involuntarily materialise >in his mind> You wouldn't be the first to comment on the rather poor judgement of a name for that particular widget :) Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 00:20:57 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980214191049.006b1f78@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:10:49 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Off-Topic, Flames, WebRing, Shows. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1063 Lines: 32 At 06:39 PM 2/14/98 +0000, you wrote: >WebRing > Seems to be down, at least www.netfusion.co.uk appears to no >longer have a DNS entry. > > >unc@muon<1> nslookup www.netfusion.co.uk >Server: tachyon.mono.org >Address: 138.40.17.10 > >*** tachyon.mono.org can't find www.netfusion.co.uk: Non-existent host/domain > > >I seem to recall cookie saying he was looking for a new home, anyone knwo >the goss? Ah... don't worry just yet :) We've got a new 100Mb ATM link (only 100Mb, because we're using a single ethernet hub to patch into it at the moment, and it saturates at that). Unfortunately, the guy in charge of the other end of the link, and the pipe onto SuperJanet (namely a guy called Richard at Salford Uni) is seemingly incompetent. We're thinking of christening the ATM switch as "Yoyo" Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 00:20:58 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980214190801.006aae44@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:08:01 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Leeds!!! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Lines: 12 At 11:18 AM 2/14/98 EST, you wrote: >Right, seeing as the Leeds show is precisely two weeks away, is anyone >interested in going? *sobs into his coke* Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 00:30:08 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980214192505.006b295c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:25:05 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: OffTopic (kind of): Crunch Time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 572 Lines: 17 Hi everyone, I'm going to have to switch into lurk mode for a while -- deadlines here are getting to be painful (I pulled an 18 hour programming stint yesterday, got home at 5am, and slept until 6pm. Yikes). So... I need to focus a little. I'll reply to a couple more postings, and then my volume is going to go right down. Si *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 00:30:08 1998 Message-ID: <34E6A640.3471@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:24:33 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 429 Lines: 17 Maria Rookyard wrote: > Have you considered spray painting them? > > Martin. Briefly... but the computer fell off the clothes line when I pegged it up to dry. So I gave up on that idea. > Alternatively you could just paint the room to match your existing (SAM) > feet! > > Maria. > x Hmmmm.... perhaps - but white's a bit tooo sterile, dark blue .... ? Oooooohhhh Noooo!!! And red? Well - it'd clash with my nail varnish. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 00:40:55 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980214193438.006b2fdc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:34:38 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Cross-platform coding - was Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning In-Reply-To: <673b7ea0.34e57fc7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1977 Lines: 41 At 06:28 AM 2/14/98 EST, you wrote: >Now I find it impossible to believe that something I was doing in the late >70s, where I even had to write the compilers myself, cannot be done now in the >late 90s when you have cross-platform languages like C and C++ to name but >two. > >It is the job of the compiler to implement machine specifics either within >itself or through library routines. The programmer, if he is using good tools, >doesn't (or shouldn't) have to worry his head over what machine the code is >going to end up running on. Enter, stage left, the Java programming language. The great white hope of the computer industry. The moment they get the hot-spot technology working fine, and they stablise it, it's going to be great. Alas, I reckon we're still about a year or so before it'll be stable enough to release useful programs in it. Part of the problem is that you can't guarantee that the Java implementations are going to match up to Sun's Java spec. Even Sun's Java implementation doesn't follow its own specs on all systems. Crazy, but true. It's something that a lot of people would like to move to -- I mean, I'm all ready for it. Part of the problem is that the compilers aren't all that good at optimising yet, the other part is that the JIT compilers aren't all that good yet. But it's gettnig better. Recent studies show that its about as fast as C++ for a broad spectrum of applications. Another part of the problem is that the last time I checked, when I was still working on it, Netscape's implementation wouldn't let you create modal dialog boxes. This was 2 years after they'd been notified of the bug. Kind of makes "Are you *sure* you want to do this?" dialog boxes pointless. anyway. Simon *********************************************************** *Product Development Specialist/WebMaster/Graphic Designer* *Systems Architect/Analyst/GUI Design Manager/GDB/-cookie-* *********************************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 03:05:33 1998 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:11:49 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Adie Subject: Re: Leeds!!! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 272 Lines: 12 Gouranga@aol.com wrote: >Right, seeing as the Leeds show is precisely two weeks away, is anyone >interested in going? I'm interested but I won't be able to make it! Booooooooo! Adie http://www.scooter.demon.co.uk Blind Youth Fanzine HQ + Travis, Inaura, The Needles From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 10:04:47 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:56:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... References: In-reply-to: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 252 Lines: 11 > From: Mark Sturdy > Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... > Isn't this a bit off-topic? Yes, very, but how often do we actually say much on topic these days ? :-( -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 10:04:48 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:56:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? In-reply-to: <34E66835.33DA@postmaster.co.uk> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 311 Lines: 10 > From: David Ledbury > Subject: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? > Quick SAM related question.... > > What alternative colours can the feet be bought in - if at all? I'd like some purple one to match the buttons on my PC. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 10:04:48 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:56:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? In-reply-to: <34E66DC5.5EB6@postmaster.co.uk> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 207 Lines: 8 > From: David Ledbury > Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:23:33 -0800 Now David's time out of sync, -8 hours Dave, where do you email from ?? -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 10:04:48 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:56:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Gits References: <3.0.1.32.19980213083535.006a9250@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 304 Lines: 10 > From: Mark Sturdy > Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:36:03 -0800 (PST) And Marks time ???, or is it me, am i in a time warp or something. It's getting very confusing trying to read the answers to question, before i've read the question ?-( -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 10:55:13 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:52:48 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: NVG site In-reply-to: <9802121427.AA16673@asmal.edh-net> Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 827 Lines: 27 I've just transfered Dave Whitmores Sam Adventure Club disks to NVG /pub/sam-coupe/incoming as SCAC1.ZIP, 2, & 3 I'm assuming SAC4 is the forth?, i didnt bother renaming anything. Is it Frode that maintains the site?? Can somebody create the directory and move the files around, unless of course somebody whats to give me a non-anonymous logon??? eh??? :-))), then i'll do it! While I whas huting around, in NVG, i found this file /pub/sam-coupe/misc/sam/hdos.zip which apparantly has been uploaded by anonymouse user so no body can download it yet :-( ### RETR hdos.zip 550-This file has been uploaded by an anonymous user. It has not 550 yet been approved for downloading by the site administrators. ### Can somebody look at this as i'd like to have a look see what the file is. Thanks people. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 11:01:07 1998 From: Dean Liversidge Organization: The Factory To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:58:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NVG site References: <9802121427.AA16673@asmal.edh-net> In-reply-to: Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 400 Lines: 12 > From: "Dean Liversidge" > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Subject: NVG site > I've just transfered Dave Whitmores Sam Adventure Club disks to NVG > /pub/sam-coupe/incoming as SCAC1.ZIP, 2, & 3 I'm assuming SAC4 is > the forth?, i didnt bother renaming anything. Did I forget to mention 5 & 6 aswell, ah well, i've told you now. -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 16:23:24 1998 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:18:32 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Sturdy To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Gits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: pyumi@mail.csv.warwick.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 540 Lines: 13 On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Dean Liversidge wrote: > > From: Mark Sturdy > > Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:36:03 -0800 (PST) > > And Marks time ???, or is it me, am i in a time warp or something. > > It's getting very confusing trying to read the answers to question, > before i've read the question ?-( Yeah, sorry. It's the computer services centre here (university of warwick) that's responsible for the clock. I can't do anything about it. So please, let us never mention the matter ever again. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 16:23:24 1998 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:19:32 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Sturdy To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: pyumi@mail.csv.warwick.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 327 Lines: 11 > > From: Mark Sturdy > > Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... > > > Isn't this a bit off-topic? > > Yes, very, but how often do we actually say much on topic these days > ? > :-( Well, yeah. Maybe it's because hardly any of us really use our SAMs nowadays! From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 17:23:51 1998 From: Maria Rookyard To: sam-users Subject: Re: Leeds!!! Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:50:23 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 284 Lines: 14 > >Right, seeing as the Leeds show is precisely two weeks away, is anyone > >interested in going? > > *sobs into his coke* > > Simon My dentist told me that you can dissolve a tooth *overnight* by leaving it in a glass of coke. I'm sticking with heroin from now on :) Maria. x From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 17:40:12 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: <5010ae1a.34e72602@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:29:35 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 441 Lines: 19 In a message dated 14/02/98 20:24:54, you write: > > Someone who had them amputated? Ooo! The pain!!! > > Nah ... I'm just wondering if they can be got in any other colours.... > I'm about to > decorate my computer room and I'd like to change the colour scheme to > match the walls ... > > Sounds like a sensible reason to me... :) > > David No, decorating is a bad thing to get into. Once you start you never stop. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 17:40:13 1998 From: BillRitman@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:31:53 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Cross-platform coding - was Re: Windows 95 Close Button Positioning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 367 Lines: 12 In a message dated 14/02/98 21:30:35, you write: > C and C++ are > not as cross-platform as you might think. Even something as simple as > reading a single keystroke can't be done in portable C. ANSI C does not > even guarantee you that a keyboard exists. This can't be true, can it? No, there must be standard I/O in any language worth talking about. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 19:06:42 1998 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:03:49 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Sturdy To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: the Enigma enigma (was re: A few questions) In-Reply-To: <92a428da.34e46b4e@aol.com> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: pyumi@mail.csv.warwick.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 649 Lines: 14 On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 BrenchleyR@aol.com wrote: > Well I can't be sure exactly how long ago it was as I did not make the > arrangements. However, they were moving (they said) and wanted rid of the > stock. Hum. They did move at one point - I'd guess around '92 or '93, they moved from the tiny premises on North Park Road to an industrial estate on the outskirts of Harrogate. But they can't have sold all their stock at that juncture, because shortly after they'd moved, I went and bought SAM Multipack 1 and SPhera off them. I think they were talking about moving into console development. WHat happened after that point, I don't know. Mark From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 19:46:05 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk: pyumi owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:41:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Mark Sturdy X-Sender: pyumi@lily To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: E V (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 964 Lines: 20 I emailed my friend who did work experience for them about this whole thing, and this is what I got back. I've also traced someone who used to work at Enigma, and emailed him about it. Hopefully a reply will be forthcoming soon. Mark PS I'm not actually on the list right now - could someone forward anything interesting to me? Cheers. ----Forwarded Message---- I originally saw them when they were Enigma in.... 1994 but when I did my actual Work experience in 1995 they had liquidated, re-formed and become Phoenix Interactive Entertainment. Which has now buggered itself too. All I know about the demise of EV is that some MD or something called Mark Greenshields fucked the company up the arse and was responsible. As I say, Chris could tell you more. He used to develop loads of stuff for Speccys too and he's a perfectly approachable bloke. So if this query has anything to do with Crashed, or your own curiosity, maybe you could contact him about it! From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 20:12:01 1998 Message-ID: <34E7B108.3E0D@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:22:48 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Format and their selective publicity policy... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 215 Lines: 10 Mark Sturdy wrote: > > > Yes, very, but how often do we actually say much on topic these days > > ? > > :-( > > Well, yeah. Maybe it's because hardly any of us really use our SAMs > nowadays! Speak for yourself! From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 22:59:00 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <6686fa59.34e7722d@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:54:34 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: A terse - but at least - SAM relevent thread....? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 536 Lines: 25 In a message dated 14/02/98 20:18:49, you write: >In a message dated 14/02/98 20:05:48, you write: > >> >> Quick SAM related question.... >> >> What alternative colours can the feet be bought in - if at all? >> >> David >> >> >> >Who would want to buy SAM feet???? > >Bill. Lots of people, they have such wonderful uses. Two colours exist in the big wide world. Black and Blue (though there is both a dark blue and a light blue). There were also sets of Red, Yellow and White produced but only for testing. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 22:59:14 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <70b484d9.34e77227@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:54:29 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Off topic: Cross-platform coding Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 518 Lines: 18 In a message dated 14/02/98 16:16:01, you write: >. > >We agree when you get things right for a change.... No :) When /you/ get them right. > >BTW that was a very quick 30 days on the killfile, it only took 24 by my >clock. What a strange coincidence that my removal from your killfile >hapenned to coincide with my accidentally posting a message you could take >as being positive.... Actually you came out after only a week because I needed to reinstall part of the software, I just kept mum about it :) -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Feb 15 22:59:15 1998 From: BrenchleyR@aol.com Message-ID: <95fd275.34e7722a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:54:32 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Off topic: cross-platform coding Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 853 Lines: 22 In a message dated 14/02/98 18:33:49, you write: >. > >I'm not attempting to start a flame war. Do you think I'm mad? It's >just that he REALLY GETS ON MY TITS!!! Anyway, just because most of what >Bob says is the exact opposite of what the rest of us believe to be >unquestionably true, I don't see that as any kind of a reason to say >label Bob/Bill as the baddies, and everyone else as the goodies and >always stick to those lines. Because (1) some of us have certain >characteristics that other people on the list intensely dislike, and (2) >Bob is not unquestionably, irredeemably evil, which is why I don't think >hurling insults EVERY TIME he says anything is the way to go. > >Mark Oh I am, really I am, "unquestionably, irredeemably evil" that is, you really should see what I can do with a newborn baby and a few demons..... -- Bob.