From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:33:09 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <43d09d38.3506b861@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:23 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 572 Lines: 21 In a message dated 10/03/98 18:46:14, you write: >BrenchleyR writes: > >> >> will need to be hand optimized to improve them. But the experts >> >> tell me that C is the way to go for the bulk of the coding and I >> >> can see their point. >> > >> >Do these experts regularly write operating systems for SAM Coupes? >> >> No, but they do have operating system writing experiance. > >Here's hoping I never have to use one of them ... > >Lee. Why, I don't understand your comment. Are you saying that operating systems are not written in C? -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:33:09 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:28 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 756 Lines: 24 In a message dated 11/03/98 01:22:45, you write: >o > >At 1:00 pm +0000 10/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: > >>So two years later Derek is still left with a non-working prototype, and no >>hope of recovering any of the money he put into the project. Same old story. > >Actually I distinctly remember being digitised. By Derek Morgan. Who had >bought a video camera and a Sam digitiser to a Gloucester show about >eighteen months ago. > >Andrew Oh yes, that prototype worked for a while, but hasn't since. Derek is, quite rightly, angry that he has had no help in getting it working, and no help in getting to a pre-production prototype even though I think he paid to have a small number of test boards done. If you don't believe me, give him a ring. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:33:10 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:09 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Fighting Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 538 Lines: 24 In a message dated 10/03/98 18:45:40, you write: > >> >Does anybody know of any new games coming out soon? >> >> Yes, but how soon I don't know. > >well flaming well tell us what they are then! the one thing that >dissillusions me most is comments like that. i would love to see some >new sam software being released - any chance of giving us a sneak >preview of what they're about bobby boy? >> > >> >Pete >> >> -- >> Bob. > > When they are nearly complete, there will be news, I've been led up the garden path before. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:33:11 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:15 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SAMpling Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2596 Lines: 64 In a message dated 10/03/98 18:45:49, you write: >. > >I'm a SAM user. How do you know what I want? Where is your market >research? I certainly don't remember being consulted, or sampled for >any kind of survey. In fact, the only snapshot of 'SAM User' opinion >that I can recall is the one perpetuated by this list. And, on teh >whole, that goes along with SImon's argument. This list is tiny compared to the SAM readership of FORMAT. At least credit me with conversing with slightly more normal SAM users almost every day. (And by normal, I mean people across a wide age range who use thier SAMs as their main or only computer). > >Listen, I'm not trying to be a funny bugger here and throw spanners >in the works for the sake of it, but if you are wanting to build a >machine that SAM users want, and that SAM users will buy then why not >listen to the feedback that SAM users give you? It's all free, and a >lot of it is valid and useful. Oh I do, I've been listening to readers for over 10 years, I don't think I would still be around if I didn't. > >Sam users are going to be reluctnat to buy a SRAM card if it does >nothing more than turn the ROM soft. They might, however, if it >enhanced the machine in otehr ways. Agreed, SRAM #1 = small sales to the very keen. SRAM #2 = bigger sales. But, if SRAM #2 came along first it would need a bigger investment. The trick will be to make SRAM #1 + SRAM #1a = SRAM #2 for little more than SRAM #2 on its own. > >I relaise you've got your own plan as to how this project will >progress, but perhaps from time to time it might be wise to listne to >some of the opinions of the 40 or so people on this list and get a >general impression of what the SAM world wants. I think 40 is pushing it, there may be that number on the list but there are very few who join in. And I whink you can also turn things round the other way. Is it not equally valid to say "if Bob keeps saying something, and keeps giving an argument for going that way - could he be right after all?" You know I have spent a lot of time researching and thinking about this. > >Do a survery or something, the list won't mind being sampled to >provide a snapshot of user opinion, but to carry on building >something that a small minority of a small minority wants seems like >a waste of resources to me. As I said, the list is not representative. But I may consider a more formal survey via FORMAT and possibly FRED. Will think on that for a few days. > >But then what the f*ck do I know?! Who can say :) > >Peace, Love, Kisses... >Johnna Pig Teare -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:33:12 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <3f8363b3.3506b862@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:24 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Floppy Disks Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 673 Lines: 24 In a message dated 10/03/98 18:46:34, you write: >o > >On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:09:34 EST, BrenchleyR said: >[about auto-detecting disk format] >> I know what you are saying, and I see you point. But there are two ways to >go. >> 1) give the user/programmer control (as in a DOS or UNIX type system) or 2) >> give the OS all the power as in Windoze'95. ^^^^ > >You went wrong there, Bob. On my Linux machine I put a zip disk in and type > >mount /mnt/zip > >and the disk gets mounted whether it is MSDOS, HPFS or ext2 (Linux). > >imc But is not the format of a ZIP disc common, I thought that that was one of the things IOMEGA pushed in the early days. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:33:12 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <629dcb9.3506b867@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:29 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 597 Lines: 21 In a message dated 11/03/98 01:22:45, you write: >o > >At 01:50 PM 3/10/98 EST, you wrote: >>>[Cut long irrelivent list.] >>> Yet on the whole, the people who know the most have their views ignored. >> >>So whay do you keep ignoring Bob then? I notice you left him off your list. > >Because my views are shared by others. > >And if you think I'm going to believe Bob when he says I had a hand in the >downfall of SAMCo, you have another thing coming. > >What date did the Arabs pull out of negotiations on? Early December 1993. Although there was still letters well into early 1994. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:45:17 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. References: <43d09d38.3506b861@aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 11 Mar 1998 16:39:32 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:23 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1208 Lines: 32 BrenchleyR writes: > >> >> will need to be hand optimized to improve them. But the experts > >> >> tell me that C is the way to go for the bulk of the coding and I > >> >> can see their point. > >> > > Why, I don't understand your comment. Are you saying that operating systems > are not written in C? No, what I am saying is that if these so called experts have any knowledge of the SAM and therefore what scale we are talking, in terms both of speed and size and they still think C is the best way to go then I hope I never have to rely on their competence that's all ... BrenchleyR writes: > As far as I know, Jon was responsible as team manager for a large part > of the operating system used by Eagle Star Direct Insurance, a mix of > mini and micro computers I think, with a feed through to the companies > mainframe. Jon? Well that tells us a lot, has this Jon ever seen a SAM, used a SAM, read technical docs about the SAM, programmed on the SAM ... One person by the shadowy name of 'Jon' is hardly what I would call 'experts' and certainly not an opinion I would immediately take over some of the people on this list. Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:53:41 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311114345.006dd0ec@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:43:45 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: sam tech manual In-Reply-To: <6cefc00f.3506a386@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 874 Lines: 18 At 09:45 AM 3/11/98 EST, you wrote: >Sorry, no, if anyone feels they need one and does not already have one then >I'm open to requests. And that is my last word on the subject. In that case, if I were to write a technical manual, and that manual had, say, the systems variables in it, or schematics of the SAM, would you do me for copyright? Fortunately, I've got no problem as regards the SAA1099/OKI clock chip/1Mb interface/Mouse interface schematics/IM26C91 docs as some of those are already copies of existing docs, and some of them aren't in the technical manual anyway. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:53:41 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMpling References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 11 Mar 1998 16:48:52 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:15 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3010 Lines: 70 BrenchleyR writes: > In a message dated 10/03/98 18:45:49, you write: > > This list is tiny compared to the SAM readership of FORMAT. At least credit me > with conversing with slightly more normal SAM users almost every day. (And by > normal, I mean people across a wide age range who use thier SAMs as their main > or only computer). Ok, point taken, perhaps you could give us some of the responses that you have had from people as regards this project then ... > Agreed, SRAM #1 = small sales to the very keen. SRAM #2 = bigger sales. But if #1 and #2 are substantially different then there will be no easy link between them and so it would be easier to go straight for #2. Yes? No? Comments? > But, if SRAM #2 came along first it would need a bigger investment. The trick > will be to make SRAM #1 + SRAM #1a = SRAM #2 for little more than SRAM #2 on > its own. Yes but with the ideas you've proposed so far it seems to me (And I will confess that I know little about hardware development, more of a software man myself ;)) that they are two significantly different designs and so my above situation will apply. ie no 'easy' route from #1 to #2 and therefore it would be more economical to go straight for #2 ? > I think 40 is pushing it, there may be that number on the list but there are > very few who join in. But who probably would if you sent a survey out ... > And I whink you can also turn things round the other way. Is it not equally > valid to say "if Bob keeps saying something, and keeps giving an argument for > going that way - could he be right after all?" No, not if the argument is incorrect/inprecise/unsupported. Just because someone keeps doing something does not mean that it is right. Just because people use '95 doesn't mean that it's the best OS .. > You know I have spent a lot of time researching and thinking about > this. You may have spent time thinkin about it as I'm sure have others but we certainly don't know about what research you've done. Let us know, say what you've read exactly who you've talked to, what their opinions were, let us see the results of surveys etc. I have no hesitation that if you could produce a survey that said your way was best or a fully supported argument in it's favour other than 'Some experts I've talked to reckon it's the best idea ...' then I'm sure people would respect that. Most of the people here believe in majority voting and are willing to accept they're wrong. Try it and see! > >Do a survery or something, the list won't mind being sampled to > >provide a snapshot of user opinion, but to carry on building > >something that a small minority of a small minority wants seems like > >a waste of resources to me. > > As I said, the list is not representative. But I may consider a more formal > survey via FORMAT and possibly FRED. Will think on that for a few days. Yep, but don't also forget to include the list. I think this would be a very good idea ... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 16:58:22 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <002565C4.005C9DD9.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:52:14 +0000 Subject: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 262 Lines: 11 > As far as I know, Jon was responsible as team manager for a large part of the > operating system used by Eagle Star Direct Insurance, a mix of mini and micro > computers I think, with a feed through to the companies mainframe. Who the heck is Jon? Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 19:12:05 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311121204.006dca14@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:12:04 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Missing posts... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 482 Lines: 13 Hmmm... I appear to possibly be missing some posts from the list... Including the SAMpling one that Bob replied to, and then Lee replied to. I've got Lee's reply, but not Bob's Haylp! Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 19:12:05 1998 Message-Id: <199803111805.SAA15628@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:05:10 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: the plan for sam In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1411 Lines: 36 > IIRC very heavely doctored pics, which were no better than the Maplin > digitiser for the Spectrum. pardon me but there was no maplin digitiser for the spectrum (and there certainly was not when the sam digitiser came out, even if they may be now) there was a generic frame-buffer style digitiser (for use with a satellite-weather-receiving system iirc) which used some generalised i/o port or other, and additionally maplin made a spectrum (or was it zx81?) i/o controller thingy that, afaik, was actually incompatible with said digitiser. maybe you meant RamElectronics digitiser (or it may have been Datel since they bought a lot of RamElectronic's stock off them), or, in fact, one of the many other digitisers that were available for the spectrum. but not the maplin one. oh - and of course i would never be one to point out that all spectrum digitisers captured in 1-bit monochrome with nasty nasty nasty dithering effects, whereas the sam one clearly captured in (at least) 3-bit greyscale. i think it was actually 4-bit. and i've also seen a lot of digitised pics for the speccy and they were all bad to look at. the sam ones look quite nice, in comparison. i fail to see how you can doctor an image from something approaching 1-bit monochrome, nasty visual artifacts and all, to something nearer 4-bit greyscale. but hey, maybe that's just me, not playing your game. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 19:12:05 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <8cf11970.3506dad3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:41:19 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2943 Lines: 63 In a message dated 11/03/98 01:22:52, you write: >At 1:00 pm +0000 10/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: > >>>But let's be honest here Bob -- it's true, isn't it? I'm sure we've gone >>>over on the list, for example, lots of reasons why having a *second* >>>processor design instead of a replacement processor one is a bad idea. But >>>you keep pushing it. >> >>I keep pushing it because it is the ONLY way forward that keeps EXISTING >users >>involved. I will not abandon SAM users, I want to carry them forward. They >>don't want a new machine, they want upgrades. > >But a processor *upgrade* is EXACTLY what has been proposed... one of the >various designs which had been suggestted, and which you've ignored, was >based on similar priciples to the (demonstrated working at a Gloucester >show) accelerator but with extra memory and a few other enhancements. That >would have plugged into the back of the Sam. It would have run (and speeded >up) Sam software. That is something that is not being ruled out Andrew, see item 2(f) on the list. > >IT WOULD HAVE KEPT EXISTING SAM USERS INVOLVED. IT WOULD NOT HAVE ABANDONED >EXISTING SAM USERS. Exactly, and there is no need to shout. Listen, if someone wants to go off a get a second processor working outside of the project then that is fine, when the project is ready for it I will be the first to invite it in. However, you have to see that any project needs to follow a clear path or it becomes unworkable, and the early stages do not /need/ a second processor. One will come, no doubt two (I've been looking at a couple of ideas as well), but we have to take a structured approach. > [snip lots to save bandwidth] >How the hell is that article supposed to have been a factor in SamCo's >collapse given that it was published months after the event? > >Andrew Andrew, if I had more time to explain how business works I would love to, but it is a very deep subject. However, the short answer is that just because a company appoints a liquidator it does not mean that it is not still in existence. Until a final meeting, in SAMCo's case nearly two years after Alan called in the liquidator in an effort to protect creditors, the company still exists and in many cases can be saved. Both the Arab consortium and West Coast Computers had been interested in SAMCo waking up from its rest. A few daft words from Bruce, and honest Andrew, that is all they were, did a lot to scupper those plans. As I've said before, I fully accept that Simon /believed/ at that time what Bruce had said. But if either Alan Miles or myself had been contacted we would have put people right. I do not hold a grudge against Simon for the article, remember that I had several years of dealing with Bruce before SAM even came out - so I know what he is like. All I ask is that Simon accepts that, with the benefit of hindsight, it is obvious that there never was going to be a new ASIC. Is that to much to ask? -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 19:12:05 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311140348.006de234@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:03:48 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Anonymous Users In-Reply-To: <8cf11970.3506dad3@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1181 Lines: 24 At 01:41 PM 3/11/98 EST, you wrote: >As I've said before, I fully accept that Simon /believed/ at that time what >Bruce had said. But if either Alan Miles or myself had been contacted we would >have put people right. I do not hold a grudge against Simon for the article, >remember that I had several years of dealing with Bruce before SAM even came >out - so I know what he is like. All I ask is that Simon accepts that, with >the benefit of hindsight, it is obvious that there never was going to be a new >ASIC. Is that to much to ask? I'll accept that, but not that I had any part of SAMCo going down. BUT... I'll also add that Bruce is more to blame than me in this matter; if Bruce hadn't confirmed in person to the editor of YS that, yes, he was supporting the ASIC idea, it wouldn't have been printed. End of story. And frankly, I'm still dubious about your version of events. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 19:27:31 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311141639.006e1c60@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:16:39 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Floppy Disks In-Reply-To: <3f8363b3.3506b862@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 694 Lines: 18 At 11:14 AM 3/11/98 EST, you wrote: >But is not the format of a ZIP disc common, I thought that that was one of the >things IOMEGA pushed in the early days. Unfortunately not -- it's O/S dependent. Which means that if someone formats it on the Mac (like they did to me with the graphics for the company logo) then I can't get my logo work back from them when they copy it onto a Mac disk. Goits. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 19:32:53 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311142413.006e116c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:24:13 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Anonymous Users In-Reply-To: <629dcb9.3506b867@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 577 Lines: 15 At 11:14 AM 3/11/98 EST, you wrote: >>What date did the Arabs pull out of negotiations on? > >Early December 1993. Although there was still letters well into early 1994. So they were still involved after West Coast / Revelation had bought everything up? Wonders will never cease. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 19:59:00 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2ed5cb8f.3506a38d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:46:52 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Working Together - was The Plan For SAM. X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1902 Lines: 42 At 2:45 pm +0000 11/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: >First target was to get the hard drive disc operating system working so that >it would facilitate software development. This REQUIRES that some changes are >made to MasterDOS, which in turn REQUIRES that some changes are made to the >ROM. If someone would like to prove Nev and myself wrong on that subject they >are welcome to try and I hope the succeed (but I'm not holding my breath). There's a difference between imprefect and unusable. Let's face facts here: HDOS works. It may not have a perfect UI, it may be ugly under the skin. But you can load and save files without expecting it to crash. That means we do not REQUIRE a rewritten HDOS, we do not REQUIRE a rewritten MasterDos, we do not REQUIRE a rewritten ROM. Okay, so changes to the above may have certain advantages but I don't think it's worth the time and effort which would be spent in filtering out internal stuff if it makes no visible change for the end user. >Well some people certainly showed they were incapable of working with others. I honestly couldn't agree more - and before the smart-ass comments start flying, you KNOW what I mean. >Some people have shown that they have zero business sense, not a problem in >itself provided that they recognise that they have no business sense and leave >the business side to those that have. Find "business" Replace "technical" Andrew --- +-----------------+----------------------------+--------------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | " | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | Get your kicks | +-----------------+----------------------------+ on 8.124038405 | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | " | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | anon | +----------------------------------------------+--------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 19:59:01 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311144923.006dcfc4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:49:23 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Anonymous Users In-Reply-To: <3bafd133.3506b85e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3860 Lines: 90 >But at what a cost? And could it be commercial produced? It may have worked in >demo form, but that is a long way from commercial product. And who wants to >run SAM software that fast? Very little would really benifit from extra speed >because it was written for SAM. Yes, versions could be written to exploit the >processor, I know that, but that is further down the road. Let's see... Pretty much every application program ever written for the SAM would benefit. Bar none. COMET assembler would benefit. The Secretary would benefit. Outwrite would benefit. BASIC programs would all benefit immensely. If someone's using delay loops to do their tricks in BASIC, and it screws them up, then they should have used PAUSE 1 in there instead. And yes, it could have been commercially produced. However, when I say commercially, I *mean* commercially. In a shop with surface mount technology, or able to deal with small track/pin size issues. It's a small chip. The cost? IIRC, the Z380 would cost <20 quid a piece for an 18MHz one. 50MHz was in the pipeline. A 128k EPROM, or larger... say 8 quid (IIRC). Glue logic, possibly using an FPGA or otherwise... 20 quid? Sockets, connectors, boards and other bits and bobs... maybe another 10 to 15 quid. Not including tooling. These are guesstimates; others have more expertise in this area than me. >> >>We also worked out a way to get new disk controllers to *emulate* the >>existing 1772 controller through software and hardware on the new design. > >Oh good, any details? They're in another posting. Very simple idea really, but it does rely on another processor. >So you think the post office deliver everything right. Most weeks we get at >least 2 or 3 items delivered here that should have gone elsewhere, but then we >gat more post than most people - and send more out. But the same happens (pro- >rata) to just about every business I know who deals through the post. If we >have certificates of posting then the stuff must have gone out - or do you >think we print those ourselves? If they're getting it wrong on that regular a basis, then they should be complained to vehemently, 'cos something's majorly up at the sorting office. >>Putting the tech manual on the web would get the emulator programmers and >>spectrum programmers in on the game, via SIM Coupe. They might even buy >>more SAMs. More software. > >I was asked some time ago if the SAM manual could be put up, I said I had no >objections to that provided there was clear reference to Format Publications >to point people to us. But the tech manual, no. The problem with the SAM basic manual is that it's pretty empty of useful information. It's enough to get going in BASIC, but that's all. But if it's new BASIC programmers you want, then that's what you'll get. >>>Nothing, how would the SAM community gain? By us not getting money? Please >>>Simon, engage brain. >> >>Sorry, I was under the common misconception that the SAM Community is not >>*you*. > >I said that the SAM community would gain nothing. And that I would not get >money on the sales of the tech manual. How did you read it? Sorry; I read it as "How would the SAM community gain? By us (SAM community) not getting money?" >>At least I put my name to it. > >So do they, the name they have in the case of Bill, and the name he uses in >the case of Samsboss. The other problem is that they're vehement, loudmouthed, and on the whole there is no tangible proof that they have ever contributed anything to the SAM. Yet they quite vocally have a go at people who have. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From imc Wed Mar 11 20:00:24 1998 Subject: Re: Floppy Disks To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:00:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3f8363b3.3506b862@aol.com> from "BrenchleyR" at Mar 11, 98 11:14:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 451 Lines: 10 On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:14:24 EST, BrenchleyR said: > But is not the format of a ZIP disc common, I thought that that was one of the > things IOMEGA pushed in the early days. I can format a zip however I like - it's just another SCSI disk drive. If you use the Zip tools in Windows or DOS then you will get MSDOS format, but if I type "mke2fs /dev/sda4" then I will get Linux format. It's also possible to get OS/2 to format it in HPFS format. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 20:25:02 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: the plan for sam Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:16:35 GMT Message-ID: <3507dcbe.35658523@mail.enterprise.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 713 Lines: 23 On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:13:51 +0000, you wrote: >At 1:00 pm +0000 10/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: > >>So two years later Derek is still left with a non-working prototype, and no >>hope of recovering any of the money he put into the project. Same old story. > >Actually I distinctly remember being digitised. By Derek Morgan. Who had >bought a video camera and a Sam digitiser to a Gloucester show about >eighteen months ago. > >Andrew > That's true. I was there too. I think I have some pics with me digitising him digitising you. I'll have to check out the mig's hard drive and see if I can find them. If not, I've still got the video. :) Bye, Dave Whitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/INDEX.HTM From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 20:25:02 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:16:37 GMT Message-ID: <350eea12.39071145@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980310192041.006dc4f0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980310192041.006dc4f0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 28 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:20:41 -0500, you wrote: Simon, >I've been quoted on the net in a number of documents, including in multiple >places on the website of the National Centre for Education in Technology. >I've also been quoted in the same breath as Bill Gates and Nicholas >Negroponte. You've been quoted in my last-year Sociology project 'Corruption on the Internet' and my yet-to-be-handed-in Language investigation for 'A' level (mature student here) in English language. >I'm 22. bastard! :-) C'mon.. there must be /something/ that you're crap at? :) Bye, Dave Whitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/INDEX.HTM From imc Wed Mar 11 20:31:30 1998 Subject: Re: Floppy Disks To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:31:30 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Mar 11, 98 01:23:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 359 Lines: 9 On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:23:39 +0000, Andrew Collier said: > Bytes 510 and 511 are in the SECOND dir entry! So we look at byte 255 for > the number of extra DIR tracks. IIRC the number is 255 for any SamDos > formatted disk No, I think it is always 0 unless the number of directory tracks has been changed. Formatting a Sam disk writes all zeros to it. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 20:35:13 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311152441.006df104@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:24:41 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Anonymous Users In-Reply-To: <350eea12.39071145@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980310192041.006dc4f0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <3.0.1.32.19980310192041.006dc4f0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 990 Lines: 21 At 08:16 PM 3/11/98 GMT, you wrote: >C'mon.. there must be /something/ that you're crap at? > >:) Getting girlfriends. Making new friends from scratch in general (I've been in the US for 6 months now, and I pretty much only know the people I work with -- sad, but true). Sports. Doing what's best for me rather than what's best for others. Sitting down and putting effort into the things I should be putting effort into. (Take my Physics degree, for example; though I must admit I did have to write to be able to afford to be at uni). Sooo... I am crap at a lot of stuff :) There's loads more that I could think of, but it's always easier to think of what you're good at than what you're not. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 20:56:16 1998 Message-ID: <35061883.3E5C@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:52:19 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: the plan for sam References: <199803111805.SAA15628@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1276 Lines: 38 Dave Hooper wrote: > > > IIRC very heavely doctored pics, which were no better than the Maplin > > digitiser for the Spectrum. > > pardon me but there was no maplin digitiser for the spectrum (and > there certainly was not when the sam digitiser came out, even if > they may be now) I think Uncle Bob is reffering to the generic one that Maplins had for quite some time... They've stopped doing a generic model now ... only do a PC specfic one now. [Snip] > oh - and of course i would never be one to point out that all > spectrum digitisers captured in 1-bit monochrome with nasty nasty > nasty dithering effects, whereas the sam one clearly captured in (at > least) 3-bit greyscale. i think it was actually 4-bit. Think it was actually... BTW as far as I remember, the graphics weren't doctored. Unless Dan tweaked them a little...? > and i've also seen a lot of digitised pics for the speccy and they > were all bad to look at. the sam ones look quite nice, in comparison. > i fail to see how you can doctor an image from something approaching > 1-bit monochrome, nasty visual artifacts and all, to something nearer > 4-bit greyscale. The only problem was the limit of Greys that SAM has... > but hey, maybe that's just me, not playing your game. > > dave From imc Wed Mar 11 20:58:37 1998 Subject: Floppy disk (Re: Anonymous Users) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:58:37 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980310154847.006df60c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Mar 10, 98 03:48:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 502 Lines: 11 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:48:47 -0500, Simon Cooke said: > Well, we were going to reserve one of the interrupt segments and register > sets for the purpose ... I think there's an article on it in the (not > released yet) 3rd issue of BOAI. > Basically, it involved checking for an IO operation on the Bus. Well, if a Really Fast (TM) non-Zilog processor is used then it could run a sort of SimCoupe which interprets Z80 instructions and translates the FDC commands into equivalent disk accesses... imc From imc Wed Mar 11 21:11:34 1998 Subject: Re: Floppy Disks To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:11:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Collier" at Mar 10, 98 11:34:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 367 Lines: 9 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:34:52 +0000 (GMT), Andrew Collier said: > Somebody mentioned the Mac's filing system - as far as I know this will be > impossible, because the Mac uses a totally different track / sector layout > for DSDD disks (which puts more data on outer tracks, to optimise bit > density over the entire disk) I thought they had stopped doing this. imc From imc Wed Mar 11 21:13:31 1998 Subject: Re: Books! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:13:31 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199803101014.KAA11969@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Mar 10, 98 10:14:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 322 Lines: 10 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:14:09 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > BP112, A Z-80 Workshop Manual by E.A. Parr, and > > BP152, An Introduction to Z80 Machine Code by R.A. & J.W. Penfold. > is that the little blue sub-A6-size one? It is neither blue nor sub-A6. The cover does however look like it was drawn on graph paper. imc From imc Wed Mar 11 21:15:03 1998 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:15:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Ian Dalziel" at Mar 10, 98 07:59:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 314 Lines: 9 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:59:55 +0000, Ian Dalziel said: > No, but if printed references and Web pages are the acid test, then I > fail. I did not say there was an acid test, merely that there are lots of magazines and web pages which demonstrate _Simon's_ existence. This could be different for each person. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 21:19:20 1998 Message-ID: <35061CFF.3962@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:11:27 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: the plan for sam References: <19980311090120Z49601-28688+2215@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 454 Lines: 18 Dan Doore wrote: > > Are we talking the SamCo Digitiser or the MiDGET (or are they both the > same?) > since my disc box says that they both produced images. > > Dan. Welll... I'm sure you remember the original graphics ;) Remember the little edit job you did with Colin Jordans' mouth? As for the MiDGET? Well... the MiDGET was a complete redesign. IIR Derek sold a compilation of some of them, which is probably what you're reffering to. David From imc Wed Mar 11 21:21:39 1998 Subject: Re: To hell with the lot of you To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:21:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: pyumi@csv.warwick.ac.uk In-Reply-To: from "Mark Sturdy" at Mar 10, 98 02:51:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1432 Lines: 31 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 02:51:56 +0000 (GMT), Mark Sturdy said: > After five months on the SAM mailing list, I'm unsubscribing, probably for > good. Why? Because the five months that I've been on this truly appaling > list have been the most depressing of my SAM-owning life. I've seen: [snippety] > * Pompous oafs who seem to think that personal insults and jibing will > make their opinions hold more water. > In short, the majority of the people who post on this list are COMPLETE > AND UTTER WANKERS. Glad you remembered to include yourself in these remarks... imc PS >>A blond wanted to go ice fishing. He'd seen many books on the subject, >>and finally, after getting all the necessary "tools" together, he made >>for the nearest frozen lake. After positioning his comfy footstool, he >>started to make a circular cut in the ice. Suddenly from the sky a voice >>boomed, "THERE ARE NO FISH UNDER THE ICE!" >>Startled, the blond moved further down the ice, poured a Thermos of >>cappuccino and began to cut yet another hole. Again, from the heavens, >>the voice bellowed, "THERE ARE NO FISH UNDER THE ICE!" >>The Blond, now quite worried, moved way down to the opposite end of the >>ice, set up his stool, and tried again to cut his hole. The voice came >>once more: "THERE ARE NO FISH UNDER THE ICE!" >>He stopped, looked skyward, and said, "Is that you, Lord?" >>The voice replied, "No, I'm the Ice-Rink Manager!" From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 22:05:27 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311164917.006a4420@jumper.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: simonc@jumper.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:49:17 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: The Embedded Muse 18 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2509 Lines: 53 Snippets of info for the hardware/software programmers out here. This is from Jack Gansle's Embedded Muse mailing list. >A lot of readers contributed fantastic "dumb mistakes" to this newsletter >over the course of quite a few issues. Now I'd like to start something a >bit different - Embedded Rules of Thumb. A handful are listed in the next >section, and I invite y'all to contribute more. > >Most professions have "rules of thumb" that are shortcuts, really - quick >ways to understand something, or to make decisions without doing a lot of >analysis. Architects, for example, rarely compute floor loading when >designing a house. Instead they know that a 10 foot unsupported span needs >a certain beam configuration. Doctors know that when your temperature >exceeds normal by 2 or three degrees you're most likely sick; when it's 10 >degrees high it's time for intensive care. > >We embedded folks often skip the analysis of complex problems and shoot >from the hip. That's often not a bad approach when such a decision is >grounded in experience, and when a precise answer isn't required. To do >this effectively we develop rules of thumb. Instead of re-inventing the >rules all the time, I'd like to share some of mine and hope that others >will contribute. > >None of these numbers are meant to be particularly accurate; they're more >guidelines to help our intuition. "Sanity checks", if you will, that let us >come up with quick answers or check ones resulting from detailed analysis. > > >Embedded Rules of Thumb >----------------------- >When specifying a system, we know that it's pretty much impossible to >guesstimate the size of a function if it'll be more than around 50 lines of >code. Therefore, A document that contains one line of "function xxx is 50 >lines of code" per line will be around - or at least - 1 page per 2500 >lines of estimated code. > >A line of code typically costs $10 to $20 done to commercial standards. So, >that one page spec document represents something like $25-50k worth of >development. > >Software emulations of floating point math on an 8 bit processor will take >around 1 msec per operation. Trig and other complex math is slower. > >RS-232 characters take about 1 msec per character at 9600 baud. > >Figure on about 5 bugs per 100 lines of code... if you're a careful coder. > >Around 20% of your code will be junk. It might work, but it'll be >bug-ridden and a pain to complete. > >The speed of light in wire or on a PCB trace is about 2 nsec per foot. From imc Wed Mar 11 22:16:52 1998 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:16:52 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199803091618.QAA14526@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Mar 9, 98 04:17:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1059 Lines: 22 On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:17:51 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > oh - but look - online help comes free. i had to buy the tech manual. > it's difficult to do anything useful without using the tech manual. > i'm sure other computers of the time had useful, free, technical > information. I agree. The Spectrum came with a full and complete manual including all system variables and all IO ports. It didn't have a list of ROM entry points - perhaps they didn't consider any of them useful - but the +3 manual does. The Interface 1 manual contains a full list of system variables and maps of the microdrive channel information. The ZX printer manual tells you exactly how to drive the printer using IO port 251. The Sam manual is next to useless. OK, so it teaches you Sam BASIC (although even some BASIC commands could be covered in more detail), but any advanced programming is impossible without further information. Why doesn't that information come free with the Sam? Why is Bob still holding on to it for the sake of a few bob a year (so to speak)? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 22:26:33 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311171500.006e025c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:15:00 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-Reply-To: <002565C4.005C9DD9.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 873 Lines: 26 At 04:52 PM 3/11/98 +0000, you wrote: >Who the heck is Jon? > >Justin. Not only that, but mainframe/mini/micro != embedded systems Which is effectively what the SAM is. (Thus the embedded muse thing before). I've spent the last 6 months debugging code designed and written by someone from the big end of the computer spectrum. And it was all done completely wrong. Completely wrong. It didn't even run. And I'm still finding new bugs every day. And no doubt the guy who wrote it originally got paid more to do it than me ;) There's a moral in this story. I think. Maybe. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 22:55:24 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803112111.VAA19870@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: from "Andrew Collier" at Mar 10, 98 11:34:52 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:32:31 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Floppy Disks X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1111 Lines: 28 At 9:11 pm +0000 11/3/98, Ian Collier wrote: >On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:34:52 +0000 (GMT), Andrew Collier said: >> Somebody mentioned the Mac's filing system - as far as I know this will be >> impossible, because the Mac uses a totally different track / sector layout >> for DSDD disks (which puts more data on outer tracks, to optimise bit >> density over the entire disk) > >I thought they had stopped doing this. > >imc DSDD do. DSHD don't. Which is a bit silly really, because now Mac drives have to have a motor which can do both.... unless the read head can cope with getting data at variable speeds? Andrew --- +-----------------+----------------------------+--------------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | " | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | Get your kicks | +-----------------+----------------------------+ on 8.124038405 | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | " | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | anon | +----------------------------------------------+--------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 22:55:24 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:34:35 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 518 Lines: 21 In a message dated 10/03/98 22:53:01, you write: > > At 01:50 PM 3/10/98 EST, you wrote: > >> Bill, what do you use the Internet for? > >> > >1: Email. 2: Newsgroups. 3) Local history. 4) just about anything people > use > >the internet for. > > To quote Withnail & I; Are you a sponge or a stone? > > Or rather, do you post on Newsgroups, or do you just read what's there? > > Simon Mostly read, but I do post sometimes of course. And I like some of the chat rooms if I get the time. -- Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 22:55:24 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:34:37 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1746 Lines: 53 In a message dated 10/03/98 22:53:05, you write: > >I'm sorry, but either you lie, or several people at Samco, Blue Alpha, West > >Coast, Format and SAM PD, all lie. Which is it? > > Bill, before you go on, may I suggest that you name all of your sources? > > Including the people at West Coast who for some reason were present for you > to be able to talk to? In fact, I think in the whole history of this list, > other than Bob, you're the *ONLY* person who's ever talked to the > mysterious West Coast. There is a letter here somewhere from them, and I can remember speaking to Adrian Parker a couple of time when he was running West Coast. > > >> BTW did you ever see the 11MHz Sam prototype at the Gloucester show? > > > >I did, and then heard the estimates of what it was going to cost to get it > >working. I think you live in a dream world. > > Oh really? > > And where did you hear these estimates? From whom? Repeat what you heard. > Verbotem if possible. Well I heard you say that it needed Static RAM to work, and that not all Z80Bs would run that fast. I can't remember your estimate exactly but it was around the 100 pound mark IIRC. I can remember talking to Steve Nutting about it, and to a few others. They all claimed that Static RAM was very expensive, and I took their word for it. > > > > > >>>> everyone else <<<< > > Hey! Guess what! Bill Ritman has talked to West Coast! I think this must be > a miracle, or a whole new record or something! > > He's managed to do something that *NO* other SAM user has ever done! Are you telling me that I'm the only one to hear from them? > > Wahey! > > All praise the great Bill Ritman! That I will accept :) > > Simon > Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 22:55:24 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <3f840656.35071181@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:34:38 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 727 Lines: 24 In a message dated 10/03/98 22:53:24, you write: > Peculiar that. Seeing as there were pictures from it on the SAMCo Newsdisk > > and all. > > Don't you know Simon? The greatest artist on the SAM ever... me ... hand > drew them. > > Duh! > > Of course it worked! Although perhaps, being a prototype shoved into > boxes, it didnt > work by the time Colin & Bob got it shipped to them.... So there was more than one? This is the first I've ever heard of more than one. It is not the story I've been given. > > Remember the "SpamCo" adventure Bob....? The graphics were not generated > on the Speccy. Didn't see the Adverture, but I got the newsdisks from SAM PD and the pictures on those were crap. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 22:55:25 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:34:40 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 587 Lines: 23 In a message dated 11/03/98 01:22:45, you write: > > At 1:00 pm +0000 10/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: > > >So two years later Derek is still left with a non-working prototype, and no > >hope of recovering any of the money he put into the project. Same old story. > > > Actually I distinctly remember being digitised. By Derek Morgan. Who had > bought a video camera and a Sam digitiser to a Gloucester show about > eighteen months ago. > > Andrew So do I, and my wife. Derek said he was expecting an improved version within a few weeks. But nothing came of it. Sad. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 11 23:15:25 1998 Message-ID: <35063778.187F@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:04:25 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: the plan for sam References: <3f840656.35071181@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 996 Lines: 30 BillRitman wrote: > > > > Of course it worked! Although perhaps, being a prototype shoved into > > boxes, it didnt > > work by the time Colin & Bob got it shipped to them.... > > So there was more than one? This is the first I've ever heard of more than > one. It is not the story I've been given. Strange. I didn't actually say there was one - or more than one. I only said it was prototype and it was to be expected that if it was shoved around ... there was a chance that something may have gotten knocked loose. > > Remember the "SpamCo" adventure Bob....? The graphics were not generated > > on the Speccy. > > Didn't see the Adverture, but I got the newsdisks from SAM PD and the pictures > on those were crap. Yes, well with the SAM only having a few "grey-shades" and Stefan's grey dithering software being around... what did you expect with SAM's lack of colours for scaling? BTW - it's called an Adventure... but with my spelling, I suppose I can't preach on that! > Bill. From imc Wed Mar 11 23:26:35 1998 Subject: Re: Floppy Disks To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:26:35 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <5c018ff7.35028027@aol.com> from "BrenchleyR" at Mar 8, 98 06:25:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2669 Lines: 46 On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 06:25:24 EST, BrenchleyR said: > The problem is that different disc formats need to be checked, that means that > the checking routine would have to be extended every time a new format was to > be included. Better I think to leave that to the human in charge. Right, now let me describe how it _should_ work... The device driver(s) will be responsible for low level access to the hardware. Caching will be handled either by this driver or by a generic block device driver which is placed between the high level drivers and the low level ones. For diskettes, until we get a machine which knows when the disk has been changed, I think we need to use the 2-second scheme. If the disk has been accessed (physically, not just via the cache) within the last 2 seconds then it hasn't been changed. Otherwise check the disk's serial number (this will have to be done via a call-back to the high-level driver; it's a bit messy but I can't see another way just at the moment). I don't think there is any harm in giving SamDOS diskettes a serial number if they don't already have one (in which case you will find zero at the relevant location). You might get away with write caching if you make the delay no more than about 1/4 second. Access to the filing system will be handled by a slot-in driver which provides the usual functions like stat(), open(), close(), read(), write(), seek() and readdir() by translating them into block requests from the low level driver. There will also have to be other functions for accessing the Sam-specific typing information, and internal functions for detecting the fs type and reading the serial number. The detect function will simply return yes or no, depending on whether the driver supports the filing system which is on the disk. Now, if I have the drivers for VFAT and MasterDOS loaded (we can reasonably assume that MasterDOS also does SamDOS disks, since the current MasterDOS already can) then when I insert a disk and do my first disk access the system calls VFAT.detect(). If that says no then it calls MDOS.detect(). If that says no then the system prints an "unrecognised disk" error. Otherwise it accesses the disk using the driver which said yes. If Bob likes we can disable autodetect by restricting the list of detect() routines called. If you say the disk is MDOS when it is actually VFAT then the MDOS.detect() routine will still return no and the system will report an error. Alternatively, we can have a setting which says "This disk is MDOS even if you think it isn't", in which case it won't bother to call detect() at all and you'll make a mess of your disk if you are wrong. imc From imc Wed Mar 11 23:44:21 1998 Subject: Re: Floppy Disks To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:44:21 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9803061553.AA19056@asmal.edh-net> from "Frode Tenneboe" at Mar 6, 98 04:53:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1546 Lines: 28 On Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:53:16 +0100, Frode Tenneboe said: > The tape device is already 'broken' as it's the only device which has > a parameter mixed with the device specifier. To be syntactical good > it should be something like 'DEVICE T(35)' or 'DEVICE T=35' or perhaps > even 'FORMAT T 35' - however, this implies that something is 'wiped' > clean if you don't look at T as the 'stream'. If there's one thing which should change in Sam BASIC it is this strange case of device names being the only letters outside quotes which are not variables. The tape device doesn't warrant changing really. If we write DEVICE "d1" then it is like major device type D, minor device number 1, and if we write DEVICE "t35" then it is major device type T, minor device number 35. The minor device number doesn't always have to be the unit number (actually in Linux there is a major device, the "misc" device, for which different minor device numbers mean completely different devices) so we can live with it being the tape speed. > Normally you'd do 'DEVICE D1' to set the default device to D1. A > new syntax could be 'DEVICE D1 MSDOS' (or 'DEVICE D1(MSDOS)'), it > would still be device D1, but with a different format on the media. > Ideally, this should be auto-detected. Hence, you should only need > to do FORMAT d1:"xxx" MSDOS. FORMAT "d1:xxx","MSDOS" (more letters that shouldn't be variables...). We already have FORMAT "d1:yyy",5 (MasterDOS with 5 directory tracks) and FORMAT "d3:zzz",2,30 (RAM disk with 30 tracks, 2 directory tracks). imc From imc Wed Mar 11 23:52:34 1998 Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:52:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <802fd4c8.34fb0003@aol.com> from "BrenchleyR" at Mar 2, 98 01:52:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 534 Lines: 14 On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:52:48 EST, BrenchleyR said: > Still not clear myself. One of the problems with SAM basic is that there are > too many rules and exceptions to rules. I seem to remember asking you for examples of your supposed "rules and exceptions to rules" before and not getting an answer. I can't see that many, myself. > I know there are some exceptions that I'm keen to get rid of but I'm not > prepared to be too drawn on that this early in the work. Oh, well if you don't want any help then fine do it yourself. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 00:14:58 1998 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:19:46 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: the plan for sam In-Reply-To: <9ae76bf2.35058b94@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 387 Lines: 15 In article <9ae76bf2.35058b94@aol.com>, BillRitman writes >In a message dated 10/03/98 02:36:26, you write: Bill, When you're sending to a list, it would be helpful if you set your software - or change the message manually - to tell us which "you" you're replying to. If you see Bob, pass the message on - he's doing the same thing. Funny that. -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 00:15:07 1998 From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:02:22 -0000 Message-Id: <01bd4d4a$21be9a20$2b14a8c2@sparky> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1298 Lines: 39 -----Original Message----- From: BillRitman >In a message dated 10/03/98 22:53:01, you write: > >> >> At 01:50 PM 3/10/98 EST, you wrote: >> >> Bill, what do you use the Internet for? >> >> >> >1: Email. 2: Newsgroups. 3) Local history. 4) just about anything people >> use >> >the internet for. >> >> To quote Withnail & I; Are you a sponge or a stone? >> >> Or rather, do you post on Newsgroups, or do you just read what's there? >> >> Simon > >Mostly read, but I do post sometimes of course. And I like some of the chat >rooms if I get the time. > >-- >Bill. Which is why you don't show up on any searches that I (and I'm sure others) have fired at Dejanews? You, your Ford Escort, your brother in the USA who you are going to work with later this year, your job as a quality control inspector, your lab full of Windows NT machines in work, DON'T EXIST! Bob, please GO AWAY - we are tired of you and your stupid games, now please leave the rest of us alone. I'm sick of downloading my mail each day to find a whole lot of crap from Bill Ritman, clearly written by you. *sighs* Gavin P.S. Clearly you have a lot of time on your hands - which is surprising as the Feb issue of Format still hasn't arrived - or is it that damn postal service in Gloucester again? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 00:15:08 1998 From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: Working Together - was The Plan For SAM. Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:07:12 -0000 Message-Id: <01bd4d4a$ce6fe440$2b14a8c2@sparky> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 347 Lines: 15 -----Original Message----- From: BrenchleyR *snips lots of waffle about Samson* >It is now up to the people on this list to make their first step. > >Bob. Erm. *Takes first step* What *EXACTLY* (without waffling about time scales, project briefs and other vague crap) do you want us to do? Note the word "EXACTLY". Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 00:18:12 1998 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:28:42 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: Anonymous Users In-Reply-To: <199803112115.VAA19902@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 686 Lines: 21 In article <199803112115.VAA19902@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Collier writes >On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:59:55 +0000, Ian Dalziel said: >> No, but if printed references and Web pages are the acid test, then I >> fail. > >I did not say there was an acid test, merely that there are lots of >magazines and web pages which demonstrate _Simon's_ existence. This >could be different for each person. > >imc Jeez - OK, OK, I surrender. Could I rephrase my original post as "Lighten up"? FWIW, I don't think it matters - In cyberspace your only existence is your appearance. Ain't as though anyone gets an extra vote by appearing as multiple clones. -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 00:32:06 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311192238.006e3fac@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:22:38 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Anonymous Users In-Reply-To: References: <199803112115.VAA19902@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 647 Lines: 18 At 11:28 PM 3/11/98 +0000, you wrote: >FWIW, I don't think it matters - In cyberspace your only existence is >your appearance. Ain't as though anyone gets an extra vote by appearing >as multiple clones. *grins* BTW: You *do* exist. According to a number of search engines. Bill, however, does not. Which is odd, if he's been posting to usenet. ;) Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 08:56:22 1998 Illegal-Object: Syntax error in Message-Id: value found on sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no: Message-Id: ^-Extraneous program text From: Dan Doore Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 8:48:49 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: RE: the plan for sam MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: TFS Gateway /310000000/310102093/310102123/310460310/ X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <19980312084917Z49201-1435+65@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 653 Lines: 30 > Welll... I'm sure you remember the original graphics ;) They certainly dredge up some memories... :) > Remember the little edit job you did with Colin Jordans' mouth? Colin 'Wonky Lips' Jordan? As Ronald Reagan said in the 'Irangate' investigations "I do not recall" :) > As for the MiDGET? Well... the MiDGET was a complete redesign. > > IIR Derek sold a compilation of some of them, which is probably > what you're reffering to. Indeed. Incidentally, there was another digitiser built from a Videoface by Mike AJ, boy, was that a time ago. Dan. Work: dan@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 10:28:21 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <30c6967e.3507b234@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:00:18 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: sam tech manual Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1249 Lines: 34 In a message dated 11/03/98 17:05:03, you write: >o > >At 09:45 AM 3/11/98 EST, you wrote: >>Sorry, no, if anyone feels they need one and does not already have one then >>I'm open to requests. And that is my last word on the subject. > >In that case, if I were to write a technical manual, and that manual had, >say, the systems variables in it, or schematics of the SAM, would you do me >for copyright? Fine, at least in principle. My only request is that any reproduction of existing documentation (the schematics for instance, for which I have some of the originals here - plus by the way the artwork for many of the boards) would credit copyright to Format Publications and say reproduced with permission (we can work out exact words later and I'll quite happily give you a letter of permission to keep things legal. As you say, the 1772, the sound chip (on which I have some more stuff) and a lot of other information is taken from manufactures sources so there is no problem. > >Fortunately, I've got no problem as regards the SAA1099/OKI clock chip/1Mb >interface/Mouse interface schematics/IM26C91 docs as some of those are >already copies of existing docs, and some of them aren't in the technical >manual anyway. > >Simon -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 10:28:36 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <6773f100.3507b23a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:00:23 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SAMpling Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2485 Lines: 70 In a message dated 11/03/98 17:05:11, you write: >o > >BrenchleyR writes: > >> In a message dated 10/03/98 18:45:49, you write: >> >> This list is tiny compared to the SAM readership of FORMAT. At least credit >me >> with conversing with slightly more normal SAM users almost every day. (And >by >> normal, I mean people across a wide age range who use thier SAMs as their >main >> or only computer). > >Ok, point taken, perhaps you could give us some of the responses that >you have had from people as regards this project then ... > >> Agreed, SRAM #1 = small sales to the very keen. SRAM #2 = bigger sales. > >But if #1 and #2 are substantially different then there will be no easy >link between them and so it would be easier to go straight for #2. Yes? >No? Comments? My current thought is board #1 = smaller version of Bruce's SRAM. After all it is only two 74LS chips and a Static RAM chip. All three chips socketed. Then either 1) a second board that connects to the #1 board to make #2. Or 2) trade in on #1 for #2 (because the chips can be used again). Which to go for? Comments? [snip] > >You may have spent time thinkin about it as I'm sure have others but we >certainly don't know about what research you've done. Let us know, say >what you've read exactly who you've talked to, what their opinions were, >let us see the results of surveys etc. I have no hesitation that if you >could produce a survey that said your way was best or a fully supported >argument in it's favour other than > >'Some experts I've talked to reckon it's the best idea ...' The problem is, always, how to put into written form something that may have take hours of talking to dozens of people. > >then I'm sure people would respect that. Most of the people here believe >in majority voting and are willing to accept they're wrong. Try it and see! But this is not a majority voting thing, you cannot have votes on this sort of thing - even if there was time to actually 'educate' people to the right level that they could make a valid choice. [Note that I do not use the term educate in an derogatory way] > [snip] >> As I said, the list is not representative. But I may consider a more formal >> survey via FORMAT and possibly FRED. Will think on that for a few days. > >Yep, but don't also forget to include the list. I think this would be a >very good idea ... Will look into it very soon. Any questions/wording you would like to see included? > >Lee. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 10:28:37 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:00:20 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 344 Lines: 17 In a message dated 11/03/98 17:05:04, you write: >o > >> As far as I know, Jon was responsible as team manager for a large part of >the >> operating system used by Eagle Star Direct Insurance, a mix of mini and >micro >> computers I think, with a feed through to the companies mainframe. > > >Who the heck is Jon? > A close friend. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 11:33:03 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <84f7b37b.3507c3c9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:15:19 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 780 Lines: 20 In a message dated 11/03/98 19:16:28, you write: >> IIRC very heavely doctored pics, which were no better than the Maplin >> digitiser for the Spectrum. > >pardon me but there was no maplin digitiser for the spectrum (and >there certainly was not when the sam digitiser came out, even if >they may be now) Well I had the kit version built for me by Paul Thomas back in his early PBT days. I don't know is it was 'dedicated' to the Spectrum, but it worked. Bruce Gordon also had one although it was a bit different IIRC. The one I has consisted of two cards plus a little interface which Paul modified so it would work at the same time as the PLUS D. I think the spec gave 255 by 300 pixels, mono, with 8 bit luminance. My system disappered with Blue Alpha :( HTH. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 11:33:04 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <4a1006fb.3507c3cc@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:15:22 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 491 Lines: 19 In a message dated 11/03/98 19:36:48, you write: >o > >At 11:14 AM 3/11/98 EST, you wrote: >>>What date did the Arabs pull out of negotiations on? >> >>Early December 1993. Although there was still letters well into early 1994. > >So they were still involved after West Coast / Revelation had bought >everything up? > >Wonders will never cease. Yes they were. The Arab plan for the machine was important to West Coast's interest. And even more important in keeping SAMCo alive. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 11:33:39 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <48d1e6f.3507c3ce@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:15:24 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 526 Lines: 22 In a message dated 12/03/98 00:37:25, you write: >At 11:28 PM 3/11/98 +0000, you wrote: >>FWIW, I don't think it matters - In cyberspace your only existence is >>your appearance. Ain't as though anyone gets an extra vote by appearing >>as multiple clones. > >*grins* > >BTW: You *do* exist. According to a number of search engines. > >Bill, however, does not. Which is odd, if he's been posting to usenet. > > >;) >Simon Could it be that the newsgroups he uses are not usenet? AOL is a law unto itself you know. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 11:33:40 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <90fe457b.3507c3cd@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:15:23 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Floppy Disks Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1301 Lines: 33 In a message dated 11/03/98 23:27:12, you write: >On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 06:25:24 EST, BrenchleyR said: >> The problem is that different disc formats need to be checked, that means >that >> the checking routine would have to be extended every time a new format was >to >> be included. Better I think to leave that to the human in charge. > >Right, now let me describe how it _should_ work... [snip lots to save bandwidth] Looks very well thought-out to me Ian. The use of drivers is just what Nev has always advocated. While I would imagine that the fine details may need playing with I think this looks very good at the mo. > >If Bob likes we can disable autodetect by restricting the list of >detect() routines called. If you say the disk is MDOS when it is >actually VFAT then the MDOS.detect() routine will still return no >and the system will report an error. Alternatively, we can have >a setting which says "This disk is MDOS even if you think it isn't", >in which case it won't bother to call detect() at all and you'll >make a mess of your disk if you are wrong. Looks like it would work for me. I do not approve of coumputers doing something for me unless I tell them they can do it - simple as that. If there are options then I hav no doubt many will like to use them. > >imc -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 13:48:39 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199803121326.NAA18933@crocus.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. In-Reply-To: from BrenchleyR at "Mar 11, 98 11:14:23 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:26:12 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 477 Lines: 12 > As far as I know, Jon was responsible as team manager for a large part of the > operating system used by Eagle Star Direct Insurance, a mix of mini and micro > computers I think, with a feed through to the companies mainframe. So he's never used a SAM, then? Programming mini (and "normal" micro) computers is far different to SAM, let alone a mainframe. If you write an OS in C for SAM, then it will be extremely slow. (As well as very unstable, if it's in Sam C.) Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 16:17:03 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAMpling References: <6773f100.3507b23a@aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 12 Mar 1998 14:48:26 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:00:23 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1909 Lines: 44 BrenchleyR writes: > >You may have spent time thinkin about it as I'm sure have others but we > >certainly don't know about what research you've done. Let us know, say > >what you've read exactly who you've talked to, what their opinions were, > >let us see the results of surveys etc. I have no hesitation that if you > >could produce a survey that said your way was best or a fully supported > >argument in it's favour other than > > > >'Some experts I've talked to reckon it's the best idea ...' > > The problem is, always, how to put into written form something that may have > take hours of talking to dozens of people. Well at least try and give us some idea ... You seriously won't get any credibility from statements that are just backed up by 'Well I've talked to loads of people' Imagine a courtroom and the judge is asking for evidence and the barrister comes out with 'Well we spoke to a couple of people I know and they all think he did it' Not a particularly good argument now is it ... > >then I'm sure people would respect that. Most of the people here believe > >in majority voting and are willing to accept they're wrong. Try it and see! > > But this is not a majority voting thing, you cannot have votes on this sort of > thing - even if there was time to actually 'educate' people to the right level > that they could make a valid choice. [Note that I do not use the term educate > in an derogatory way] Sorry, bad phrasing, I wasn't suggesting that we have an actual vote, just that if you can convince people that they are in the minority and therefore that your idea is more feasible then they will probably concede to your way of doing things ... > Will look into it very soon. > > Any questions/wording you would like to see included? Not my strong point I'm afraid though I'd be happy to comment on any drafts produced. Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 16:17:03 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 12 Mar 1998 14:51:52 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:00:20 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 880 Lines: 24 BrenchleyR writes: > The {giggle} wrote .. > > >> As far as I know, Jon was responsible as team manager for a large > >> part of the operating system used by Eagle Star Direct Insurance, a > >> mix of mini and micro computers I think, with a feed through to the > >> companies mainframe. > > > >Who the heck is Jon? > > > A close friend. Which doesn't elevate his programming opinions in any way whatsoever (Btw this isn't meant as a slur on you ...). Just because he is a friend doesn't mean he is a good programmer, a surname would have been nice, it's like those adverts for $$$$QUICK scheme's that always quote Bill from Gloucester (Entirely fictional example ;) ) in the sure knowledge that noone can locate said Bill from every single Bill in Gloucester and so have no way of checking the validity of the claims made ... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 16:17:05 1998 To: Sam_List Subject: Off topic but cool ... X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 12 Mar 1998 14:54:04 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 210 Lines: 9 Check this out for a cool URL : http://www.llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.co.uk/ Brought a smile to my face anyway (I really should get out more ...) Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From imc Thu Mar 12 16:35:25 1998 Subject: Re: Off topic but cool ... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:35:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "The Giggler" at Mar 12, 98 02:54:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 234 Lines: 8 On 12 Mar 1998 14:54:04 +0000, The Giggler said: > http://www.llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.co.uk/ I _think_ I knew about that. But pages which start with are not my favourite... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 18:46:29 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980312111739.006d398c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:17:39 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: What's more important? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 525 Lines: 14 What's more important; A TCP/IP stack, or standard VT100 serial comms? On the same subject, what's the smallest that a TCP/IP stack can be? In terms of the amount of memory it'll need for buffer space, etc etc. Just pondering. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 18:46:31 1998 Message-Id: <199803121748.RAA22273@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:47:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Books! In-reply-to: <199803112113.VAA19885@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <199803101014.KAA11969@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Mar 10, 98 10:14:09 am X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 151 Lines: 6 > It is neither blue nor sub-A6. The cover does however look like it > was drawn on graph paper. but bluey-white, small, and paperback, right? dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 19:06:11 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:55:24 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Off topic but cool ... In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39B56157C2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 229 Lines: 10 > http://www.llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.co.uk/ According to my browser anyway, this URL does not exist, the alternative is this: http://www.nwi.co.uk/llanfair/ Have a look at that then! MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 19:14:57 1998 Message-Id: <199803121908.TAA02868@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:07:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What's more important? In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980312111739.006d398c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 849 Lines: 19 > What's more important; > A TCP/IP stack, or standard VT100 serial comms? to whom? can you not access internet stuff using VT100 telnet type stuff anyway (through appropriate gateways or what have you). I'd work from the bottom up. serial comms. > On the same subject, what's the smallest that a TCP/IP stack can be? In > terms of the amount of memory it'll need for buffer space, etc etc. if this is to assess whether it is *possible* to implement the TCPIP stack on the sam, then i'd probably have to say it should be possible (enuff memory anyway) but i have no idea how easy or hard. as for *how much memory*, all i can say is try to implement it using as little memory as you can. i don't believe there is a lower limit on the amount of space needed, as such. probably someone with more experience can rubbish my claims though dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 19:32:46 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980312141921.006e2168@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:19:21 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: What's more important? In-Reply-To: <199803121908.TAA02868@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19980312111739.006d398c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2156 Lines: 47 At 07:07 PM 3/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >> What's more important; >> A TCP/IP stack, or standard VT100 serial comms? > >to whom? can you not access internet stuff using VT100 telnet type >stuff anyway (through appropriate gateways or what have you). I'd >work from the bottom up. serial comms. Ah... but that's the problem; working from the bottom up won't give an efficient system. I'd be writing a driver which wrapped SLIP around IP around TCP/UDP, and tried to reduce the amount of shifting things around in memory as much as possible. Also, I'd try and implement a "feeder" and timeout system, which would reduce the amount of polling involved, allowing other stuff to carry on in the foreground. Which, alas, is totally different to the serial comms stuff. The only similarity, in fact, is the initialisation code for the comms chip. > >> On the same subject, what's the smallest that a TCP/IP stack can be? In >> terms of the amount of memory it'll need for buffer space, etc etc. > >if this is to assess whether it is *possible* to implement the TCPIP >stack on the sam, then i'd probably have to say it should be possible >(enuff memory anyway) but i have no idea how easy or hard. >as for *how much memory*, all i can say is try to implement it using >as little memory as you can. i don't believe there is a lower limit >on the amount of space needed, as such. probably someone with more >experience can rubbish my claims though Hmmm... I'll see how much memory the PalmPilot stack uses... I mean, I can collapse the window small enough, but I'm not sure how big the IP packets I'm generally going to be dealing with will be. Nor how many simultaneous connections I should be worrying about. *sigh* Ideally, everything (including the driver code for it all) will run in 32k at most. 16k if possible. 64k if I really have to. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 19:47:23 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980312143421.006d4950@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:34:21 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: TCP/IP Stacks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 423 Lines: 12 Well, apparently the PalmPilot manages adequately in 32k of RAM (The TCP/IP stack is in ROM). Sooo... Looks feasible, people. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From imc Thu Mar 12 20:30:34 1998 Subject: Re: Off topic but cool ... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:30:34 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <39B56157C2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> from "Matthew Craven" at Mar 12, 98 06:55:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 571 Lines: 17 On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:55:24 BST, Matthew Craven said: > > http://www.llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.co.uk/ > According to my browser anyway, this URL does not exist It does; but although I loaded it without problems in Solaris Netscape 4.04 I was less than entertained when Linux Netscape 4.04 decided it couldn't locate the server because it had cut off the last few characters from the host name. Lynx is fine though. > alternative is this: > > http://www.nwi.co.uk/llanfair/ Neither site is responding at the moment, Batwaugh. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 20:38:32 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:37:20 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: hurry,hurry,hurry... In-reply-to: <2147f81f.35084658@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <3B685A065A@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 447 Lines: 14 Cool - what date is the show again (I've forgotten :< )? MJC. > Get yer votes in for a "lets get plastered in Gloucester" weekend everyone! > > Tis only a few weeks away now, and for once it'd be nice to be organised... > > ie I want to buy my train ticket *now* to get it cheaper, so I'm looking for > someone else to turn up so I won't have to go out on my tod. Those nasty boys > in the nightclub might start a real fight then... > > C > From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 20:38:32 1998 From: Gouranga Message-ID: <2147f81f.35084658@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:32:22 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: hurry,hurry,hurry... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 362 Lines: 9 Get yer votes in for a "lets get plastered in Gloucester" weekend everyone! Tis only a few weeks away now, and for once it'd be nice to be organised... ie I want to buy my train ticket *now* to get it cheaper, so I'm looking for someone else to turn up so I won't have to go out on my tod. Those nasty boys in the nightclub might start a real fight then... C From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 20:45:51 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:40:25 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Off topic but cool ... In-reply-to: <199803122030.UAA23110@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <39B56157C2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> from "Matthew Craven" at Mar 12, 98 06:55:24 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <3B75586897@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 699 Lines: 25 > On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:55:24 BST, Matthew Craven said: > > > http://www.llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.co.uk/ > > > According to my browser anyway, this URL does not exist > > It does; but although I loaded it without problems in Solaris Netscape 4.04 > I was less than entertained when Linux Netscape 4.04 decided it couldn't > locate the server because it had cut off the last few characters from the > host name. Lynx is fine though. OK - it might have something to do with the Win NT version of Netscape. > > > alternative is this: > > > > http://www.nwi.co.uk/llanfair/ > > Neither site is responding at the moment, Batwaugh. Good point. > imc MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Mar 12 22:10:25 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980312165350.006d3ff8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:53:50 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Off topic but cool ... In-Reply-To: <3B75586897@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> References: <199803122030.UAA23110@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> <39B56157C2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 844 Lines: 19 At 08:40 PM 3/12/98 BST, you wrote: >> It does; but although I loaded it without problems in Solaris Netscape 4.04 >> I was less than entertained when Linux Netscape 4.04 decided it couldn't >> locate the server because it had cut off the last few characters from the >> host name. Lynx is fine though. > >OK - it might have something to do with the Win NT version of >Netscape. God knows how it handles long search queries then... Unless it's a problem in the DNS handling routines of the TCP/IP stack, rather than a buffer truncation problem. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 00:17:31 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:09:21 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Off topic but cool ... In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980312165350.006d3ff8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> References: <3B75586897@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <3CF0C61F64@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 369 Lines: 14 > >OK - it might have something to do with the Win NT version of > >Netscape. > > God knows how it handles long search queries then... > > Unless it's a problem in the DNS handling routines of the TCP/IP stack, > rather than a buffer truncation problem. Well, it does truncate the address just after the c in co.uk - which does not bode well really. > > Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 00:17:31 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <84f9593c.35085e39@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:14:15 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1044 Lines: 36 In a message dated 11/03/98 17:04:30, you write: > > > > >Is it just a coincidence that I receive a bunch of mail from bob, then a > >few from other people, then a bunch from bill, a few from other people, a > >bunch from bob etc. etc. etc. > > Have you considered that this is how people like us, who have jobs to do, > and > who have to pay for out internet access, do things. I go online in the > morning > if I can, if not around 3pm. I then work through what has come done, reply > to > what I feel needs a reply, then if I have time I go online and post the > replies back. AOL Flash Sessions, wonderful things, > > I have noticed however, that AOL seems to hold on to some email, either that > or nvg does, because the number of times I read a reply from someone before > the original is high enough to annoy me. I get the same, but not very often. > > You know, this is how conspiracy theories get started. And no, I was not on > the grassy knoll. That shows your age Bob. > > -- > Bob. > Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 00:17:35 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <2d70cd56.350867f2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:44 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 526 Lines: 21 In a message dated 12/03/98 00:37:25, you write: > > At 11:28 PM 3/11/98 +0000, you wrote: > >FWIW, I don't think it matters - In cyberspace your only existence is > >your appearance. Ain't as though anyone gets an extra vote by appearing > >as multiple clones. > > *grins* > > BTW: You *do* exist. According to a number of search engines. > > Bill, however, does not. Which is odd, if he's been posting to usenet. > > > ;) > Simon As I do not have a web page how would a search engine find me? Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 00:17:36 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:43 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 689 Lines: 21 In a message dated 12/03/98 00:21:25, you write: > > Which is why you don't show up on any searches that I (and I'm sure others) > have fired at Dejanews? What is Dejanews whan its at home? >You, your Ford Escort, your brother in the USA who > you are going to work with later this year, your job as a quality control > inspector, your lab full of Windows NT machines in work, DON'T EXIST! Bob, > please GO AWAY - we are tired of you and your stupid games, now please leave > the rest of us alone. I'm sick of downloading my mail each day to find a > whole lot of crap from Bill Ritman, clearly written by you. *sighs* > > Gavin I think you need to take a holiday. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 00:17:37 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <8db8ed6b.350867f0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:41 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 624 Lines: 22 In a message dated 12/03/98 00:21:21, you write: > In article <9ae76bf2.35058b94@aol.com>, BillRitman > writes > >In a message dated 10/03/98 02:36:26, you write: > > Bill, > > When you're sending to a list, it would be helpful if you set your > software - or change the message manually - to tell us which "you" > you're replying to. > > If you see Bob, pass the message on - he's doing the same thing. Funny > that. > > -- > Ian Dalziel Sorry, but that is the way AOL software works. I guess it makes the assumption that the person you are replying to knows he is "you". Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 01:23:28 1998 From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 01:17:17 -0000 Message-Id: <01bd4e1d$c33fd340$3914a8c2@sparky> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 914 Lines: 26 -----Original Message----- From: BillRitman >>You, your Ford Escort, your brother in the USA who >> you are going to work with later this year, your job as a quality control >> inspector, your lab full of Windows NT machines in work, DON'T EXIST! Bob, >> please GO AWAY - we are tired of you and your stupid games, now please >leave >> the rest of us alone. I'm sick of downloading my mail each day to find a >> whole lot of crap from Bill Ritman, clearly written by you. *sighs* >> >> Gavin > >I think you need to take a holiday. > >Bill. (I wish...) Bill, give me your phone number and I will phone you and say sorry. If you don't want to give it to me (you didn't reply the last time I asked), then I'll give you mine, and we can have a chat over the phone, okay? Or are you too busy being an animal feeds inspector? Or, better still, getting the Feb issue of Format out? :) Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 08:45:44 1998 Message-ID: <009801bd4e5a$cb54d700$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.DOMAIN_ORCHID> From: David Zambonini To: sam-users Subject: Re: What's more important? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:33:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 325 Lines: 12 > > What's more important; > > A TCP/IP stack, or standard VT100 serial comms? > > to whom? can you not access internet stuff using VT100 telnet type > stuff anyway (through appropriate gateways or what have you). I'd > work from the bottom up. serial comms. Actually, you can access almost anything via telnet. DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 12:06:47 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <16963b45.350905dd@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 05:09:36 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1456 Lines: 37 In a message dated 12/03/98 13:53:06, you write: > >> As far as I know, Jon was responsible as team manager for a large part of >the >> operating system used by Eagle Star Direct Insurance, a mix of mini and >micro >> computers I think, with a feed through to the companies mainframe. > >So he's never used a SAM, then? Programming mini (and "normal" micro) >computers is far different to SAM, let alone a mainframe. If you write an >OS in C for SAM, then it will be extremely slow. > >(As well as very unstable, if it's in Sam C.) > >Paul Jon is someone I consider to be a computer expert, and someone who's views I trust. There is no reason why optimized code, which started life as C, cannot do just as good a job as native written machine code. Yes, some routines would have to be written in machine code because they need to be as fast as possible - but many others could even be written in Basic if it was needed. Unless you understand how to approach the writing of an operating system/interpreter (and after a lot of studying over 20 odd years, I think I do) you will not appreciate that speed is not everything (every time). Oh, and just in passing, he was one of two programmers I lent to Memotech to write the original ROM for the MTX machine. He also had several games published for the Spectrum (and other machines) in the early 80s before concentrating on Eagal Star. He now works for a large company based in Amsterdam. HTH. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 12:06:48 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 05:41:18 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 865 Lines: 23 In a message dated 12/03/98 16:21:38, you write: >> >Who the heck is Jon? >> > >> A close friend. > >Which doesn't elevate his programming opinions in any way whatsoever >(Btw this isn't meant as a slur on you ...). Just because he is a friend >doesn't mean he is a good programmer, a surname would have been nice, >it's like those adverts for $$$$QUICK scheme's that always quote Bill >from Gloucester (Entirely fictional example ;) ) in the sure knowledge >that noone can locate said Bill from every single Bill in Gloucester and >so have no way of checking the validity of the claims made ... > >Lee. Listen Lee, I have far more respect for Jon's programming opinions than almost anyone else I know other than Nev and possibly Andy Wright. Who I take advice from is up to me and it does not require you, or anyone else, to validate any claims made. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 12:06:49 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 05:41:19 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: hurry,hurry,hurry... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 469 Lines: 16 In a message dated 12/03/98 21:31:15, you write: >Get yer votes in for a "lets get plastered in Gloucester" weekend everyone! > >Tis only a few weeks away now, and for once it'd be nice to be organised... > >ie I want to buy my train ticket *now* to get it cheaper, so I'm looking for >someone else to turn up so I won't have to go out on my tod. Those nasty boys >in the nightclub might start a real fight then... And don't forget the nasty girls :) > >C -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 12:06:49 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <1bbe0d9.35090d51@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 05:41:20 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 221 Lines: 17 In a message dated 13/03/98 00:28:41, you write: >. > >That shows your age Bob. >> >> -- >> Bob. >> > >Bill. 44 in a few days time. I would prefer to feel 23 but she will not keep still long enough :) -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 12:06:59 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <2d726f11.35090d4b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 05:41:16 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SAMpling Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 3031 Lines: 73 In a message dated 12/03/98 16:21:35, you write: >BrenchleyR writes: > >> >You may have spent time thinkin about it as I'm sure have others but we >> >certainly don't know about what research you've done. Let us know, say >> >what you've read exactly who you've talked to, what their opinions were, >> >let us see the results of surveys etc. I have no hesitation that if you >> >could produce a survey that said your way was best or a fully supported >> >argument in it's favour other than >> > >> >'Some experts I've talked to reckon it's the best idea ...' >> >> The problem is, always, how to put into written form something that may >have >> take hours of talking to dozens of people. > >Well at least try and give us some idea ... You seriously won't get any >credibility from statements that are just backed up by 'Well I've talked >to loads of people' Imagine a courtroom and the judge is asking for >evidence and the barrister comes out with 'Well we spoke to a couple of >people I know and they all think he did it' Not a particularly good >argument now is it ... May I remind you that this is not a court of law and that legal rules of evidence do not apply. If I arrive at an opinion it is based on 43 (nearly 44) years of life, the last 23 years of which have been spent in computing, 18 years of which have been involved in one way or another with customer support - helping the user get what s/he wants out of their machine. > >> >then I'm sure people would respect that. Most of the people here believe >> >in majority voting and are willing to accept they're wrong. Try it and >see! >> >> But this is not a majority voting thing, you cannot have votes on this sort >of >> thing - even if there was time to actually 'educate' people to the right >level >> that they could make a valid choice. [Note that I do not use the term >educate >> in an derogatory way] > >Sorry, bad phrasing, I wasn't suggesting that we have an actual vote, >just that if you can convince people that they are in the minority and >therefore that your idea is more feasible then they will probably >concede to your way of doing things ... > >> Will look into it very soon. >> >> Any questions/wording you would like to see included? > >Not my strong point I'm afraid though I'd be happy to comment on any >drafts produced. Ok, anyone else got a question they would like to see included? Plan at the moment is to get an A5 form designed to go out with the March issue of FORMAT, FRED, and possibly SAM Sup (although I have not talked to Jean yet). An electronic form will also be posted here and on Comp.sys.sinclair. I want questions that can have boxes ticked or a score from 0 to 100 entered. Questions must be self contained and as short as possible. Questions should not be vague - "Do you want more speed" would not be acceptable, whereas "If a new processor card could speed up your SAM - how much would you be prepared to pay for it [followed by say 4 prices]" would be acceptable. > >Lee. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 12:06:59 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199803131158.LAA15927@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. In-Reply-To: <16963b45.350905dd@aol.com> from BrenchleyR at "Mar 13, 98 05:09:36 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:58:48 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 671 Lines: 18 > Unless you understand how to approach the writing of an operating > system/interpreter (and after a lot of studying over 20 odd years, I think I > do) you will not appreciate that speed is not everything (every time). I think I do understand how to approach the writing of an operating system, to be honest. And I'm sure that doing it in Sam C is a very bad move. Writing an OS in C for, say, a PC, is far different to Sam. More memory, more speed, more space, more power, more... > concentrating on Eagal Star. He now works for a large company based in > Amsterdam. Yes, I know, although you missed something; he also draws Format magazine covers for you. Paul From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 12:07:01 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199803131206.MAA16602@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: What's more important? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980312111739.006d398c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from Simon Cooke at "Mar 12, 98 11:17:39 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:06:00 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 90 Lines: 4 > What's more important; > A TCP/IP stack, or standard VT100 serial comms? Serial comms. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 12:07:02 1998 From: Paul Walker Message-Id: <199803131203.MAA16350@lupin.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Anonymous Users In-Reply-To: <2d70cd56.350867f2@aol.com> from BillRitman at "Mar 12, 98 05:55:44 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:03:40 +0000 (GMT) X-Approved: bill@whitehouse.gov X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 259 Lines: 7 > As I do not have a web page how would a search engine find me? If you post to newsgroups, as you say you do, extremely easily. However, none of the bots I set loose the other night turned up anything for you, and they check at least five search engines. From imc Fri Mar 13 12:12:49 1998 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:12:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "BillRitman" at Mar 12, 98 05:55:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 155 Lines: 8 On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:43 EST, BillRitman said: > What is Dejanews whan its at home? Where have you been - Mars? I think I'll let Bob tell him. imc From imc Fri Mar 13 12:14:06 1998 Subject: Re: the plan for sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:14:06 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <8db8ed6b.350867f0@aol.com> from "BillRitman" at Mar 12, 98 05:55:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 325 Lines: 8 On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:41 EST, BillRitman said: > Sorry, but that is the way AOL software works. I guess it makes the assumption > that the person you are replying to knows he is "you". Now come on, Bill, you've got fingers. How long does it take to go up to that "you", delete it and type the name of the person? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 13:10:02 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2d726f11.35090d4b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:52:26 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: SAMpling X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mail.comlab.ox.ac.uk id NAA01353 Status: RO Content-Length: 1539 Lines: 59 At 10:41 am +0000 13/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: >Ok, anyone else got a question they would like to see included? Not sure what you've got already... General market-researchy questions would be a Good Thing (TM) Things like: How many Spectrums do you own? How many Sam Coupés do you own? How many PCs/Macs do you own? Do you program your Sam... in Basic? in C? in Machine code? Do you own... The Quazar Surround Sound Interface? Nev's Hard Drive 1Mb memory upgrade (if so, how many?) Printer/Serial comms interface What Sam magazines dou you read [every month, usually, sometimes, never] Format Fred Blitz Zodiac Crashed Sam Supplement How many games have you purchased... from Fred? from Revelation? from Persona? from Quazar? How many utilities have you purchased... from Fred? from Revelation? from Persona? from Quazar? This will probably give a clearer picture of the audience we're talking to, and then we can start asking the more samson-oriented questions. Andrew --- +-----------------+----------------------------+--------------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | " | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | Get your kicks | +-----------------+----------------------------+ on 8.124038405 | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | " | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | anon | +----------------------------------------------+--------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 13:23:14 1998 Message-Id: <199803131310.NAA05876@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:10:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Off topic but cool ... In-reply-to: <199803122030.UAA23110@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <39B56157C2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> from "Matthew Craven" at Mar 12, 98 06:55:24 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 103 Lines: 5 > Neither site is responding at the moment, Batwaugh. both work fine for me. what's a batwaugh? dave From imc Fri Mar 13 13:32:22 1998 Subject: Re: Off topic but cool ... To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:32:22 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199803131310.NAA05876@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Mar 13, 98 01:10:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 496 Lines: 15 On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:10:15 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > Neither site is responding at the moment, Batwaugh. > both work fine for me. You will note that I wrote that yesterday, and it is entirely possible that they have rebooted their server by now. > what's a batwaugh? It is one possible answer to the question "Invent a fictitious English town whose pronunciation is approximately the same as that of BTW." It seems to be the in thing around here these days. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 14:14:28 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. References: <16963b45.350905dd@aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 13 Mar 1998 13:26:41 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Fri, 13 Mar 1998 05:09:36 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1792 Lines: 43 BrenchleyR writes: > In a message dated 12/03/98 13:53:06, you write: > > Jon is someone I consider to be a computer expert, and someone who's views I > trust. There is no reason why optimized code, which started life as C, cannot > do just as good a job as native written machine code. Yes there are, in fact there are several reasons : 1) We only have a 6MHz processor and we don't want to end up doing the Microsoft thing where every time the processor gets faster the OS gets more complicated ie. little improvement for given investment 2) On a system the size of the SAM assembler is not too big a task to handle so why not? 3) We don't have (At this moment in time) a decent C compiler 4) There are people capable of writing the OS in assembler > Yes, some routines would > have to be written in machine code because they need to be as fast as possible > - but many others could even be written in Basic if it was needed. I am seriously hoping this is a joke because I cannot think of a single thing that could possibly be written in BASIC. > Unless you understand how to approach the writing of an operating > system/interpreter (and after a lot of studying over 20 odd years, I think I > do) you will not appreciate that speed is not everything (every time). Maybe on a Pentium not, but on a Z80 I think that and program conciseness is the key points you should be looking at. > Oh, and just in passing, he was one of two programmers I lent to Memotech to > write the original ROM for the MTX machine. He also had several games > published for the Spectrum (and other machines) in the early 80s before > concentrating on Eagal Star. He now works for a large company based in > Amsterdam. Thank you this helps ... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 14:14:28 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 13 Mar 1998 13:32:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Fri, 13 Mar 1998 05:41:18 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 652 Lines: 17 BrenchleyR writes: > In a message dated 12/03/98 16:21:38, you write: > > Listen Lee, I have far more respect for Jon's programming opinions than almost > anyone else I know other than Nev and possibly Andy Wright. Who I take advice > from is up to me and it does not require you, or anyone else, to validate any > claims made. Yes but if you are using his opinions to justify a point then you do need to validate claims made otherwise your argument will NOT be taken seriously. You can't expect to say here is my expert so everyone believe him and just expect it to happen without justifying it. Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 14:14:31 1998 Message-Id: <199803131340.NAA12383@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:40:10 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Anonymous Users In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980311152441.006df104@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> References: <350eea12.39071145@mail.enterprise.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 707 Lines: 19 > >C'mon.. there must be /something/ that you're crap at? > Sports. it's cool to be crap at sports. being being generally athletically-challenged is the new rock and roll > Doing what's best for me rather than what's best for others. really? i'd say getting yr name into (quite a lot of) print and having coursework based on some articles you've written, being credited for many similar things and also having a (presumably) very well paid job in the states at 22 (with an obvious route to working for microsoft and already having passed the microsoft certified engineer test things which, iirc, cost something like 400 quid to sit anyway) is actually probably quite a good thing for you! dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 14:14:32 1998 Message-Id: <199803131342.NAA12713@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:41:49 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: the plan for sam In-reply-to: <84f7b37b.3507c3c9@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 483 Lines: 13 > consisted of two cards plus a little interface which Paul modified so it would > work at the same time as the PLUS D. I think the spec gave 255 by 300 pixels, > mono, with 8 bit luminance. My system disappered with Blue Alpha :( > > Bob. oh. so he had a spectrum capable of displaying 255 by 300, 8-bit digitised pictures? or did he in fact have a spectrum capable of displaying 256 by 192, 1-bit digitsed pictures? (which, presumably, would actually look at lot worse) dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:50 1998 From: Diggory Gray (PWE) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:42:59 GMT Message-Id: <199803131642.QAA00675@ugs2.ph.bham.ac.uk> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Logging off... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: 6npzPsMcD2HBWWXauEZj9w== X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 107 Lines: 8 I'm going to go. Goodbye SAM people.. Hope SAMSON is a success. Diggory PS; how do I unsubscribe again? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:51 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <3486c7db.3509634c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:10 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 342 Lines: 20 In a message dated 13/03/98 12:33:02, you write: >o > >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:43 EST, BillRitman said: >> What is Dejanews whan its at home? > >Where have you been - Mars? > >I think I'll let Bob tell him. > >imc Something that affect people outside of AOL but has little relivence to people inside AOL. Does that help Ian? -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:52 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <189106db.3509634b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:09 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 721 Lines: 24 In a message dated 13/03/98 12:32:56, you write: > >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:41 EST, BillRitman said: >> Sorry, but that is the way AOL software works. I guess it makes the >assumption >> that the person you are replying to knows he is "you". > >Now come on, Bill, you've got fingers. How long does it take to >go up to that "you", delete it and type the name of the person? > >imc AOL software works this way because it is designed for emails - something which normally take place between two people. The quoting of the senders name is something that I would expect to see in newsgroup postings, not in email. Don'y know about Bill, but I'm not doing something like that manually to please anyone. HTH. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:54 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:14 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1484 Lines: 35 In a message dated 13/03/98 13:57:22, you write: > >Yes but if you are using his opinions to justify a point then you do >need to validate claims made otherwise your argument will NOT be taken >seriously. You can't expect to say here is my expert so everyone believe >him and just expect it to happen without justifying it. > >Lee. No. I expect to be able to say that, having considered all the facts, listened to opinions and applied my own past experience to the matter, I have reach a conclusion. I do not expect ever decision to be pounce upon and torn to shreds. I do not expect to have to explain each and every decision in minute detail often to people who do not have the experience to be able to understand the explanation in the first place. I do take on board EVERYTHING that is said. That I reject some things is not a decision that is taken lightly, but I have not got the time to explain ever decision in writing to the satisfaction of every person reading this list (especially as a couple of them just go out of their way to pick arguments. There are many things that CANNOT be explained easily through emails - you need the feedback of a face to face (or telephone) conversation to get the message over (or to have a proper debate). One thing I am considering is hiring the back room of the hall we hold the shows at for a Saturday in a few months time so that some real groundwork could be done. Would anyone be interested if I was to arrange that? -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:54 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <6cf5c35b.3509634c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:15 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 876 Lines: 28 In a message dated 13/03/98 13:57:29, you write: > >> consisted of two cards plus a little interface which Paul modified so it >would >> work at the same time as the PLUS D. I think the spec gave 255 by 300 >pixels, >> mono, with 8 bit luminance. My system disappered with Blue Alpha :( >> >> Bob. > >oh. so he had a spectrum capable of displaying 255 by 300, 8-bit >digitised pictures? >or did he in fact have a spectrum capable of displaying 256 by 192, >1-bit digitsed pictures? (which, presumably, would actually look at >lot worse) > >dave No, the Spectrum was not capable of displaying the full screen, but then most digitisers would not expect a screen resolution that matched their scanning. Input was processed by software (with selectable rules) to give as good a pic as you could get on the Speccy. But the hard-copies were of course much better. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:55 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <1532215b.3509634a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:07 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1179 Lines: 37 In a message dated 13/03/98 12:32:52, you write: >o > > >> Unless you understand how to approach the writing of an operating >> system/interpreter (and after a lot of studying over 20 odd years, I think >I >> do) you will not appreciate that speed is not everything (every time). > >I think I do understand how to approach the writing of an operating system, >to be honest. And I'm sure that doing it in Sam C is a very bad move. > >Writing an OS in C for, say, a PC, is far different to Sam. More memory, >more speed, more space, more power, more... There is no difference at all. Sure, more on SAM would need to be hand written in assembler, but there is no /real/ difference. > >> concentrating on Eagal Star. He now works for a large company based in >> Amsterdam. > >Yes, I know, although you missed something; he also draws Format magazine >covers for you. Oh yes, and he's a fantastic artist as well. And he has a lovely wife, a wonderful little daughter and another child on the way. Now, do you want his inside leg measurement? > >Paul Rally, I fail to understand why some people pick up on the most useless things and make out that they are important. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:56 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <1a9a485a.3509634d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:12 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2062 Lines: 60 In a message dated 13/03/98 13:27:30, you write: >o > >BrenchleyR writes: > >> In a message dated 12/03/98 13:53:06, you write: >> >> Jon is someone I consider to be a computer expert, and someone who's views >I >> trust. There is no reason why optimized code, which started life as C, >cannot >> do just as good a job as native written machine code. > >Yes there are, in fact there are several reasons : > >1) We only have a 6MHz processor and we don't want to end up doing the > Microsoft thing where every time the processor gets faster the OS gets > more complicated ie. little improvement for given investment >2) On a system the size of the SAM assembler is not too big a task to > handle so why not? >3) We don't have (At this moment in time) a decent C compiler >4) There are people capable of writing the OS in assembler > >> Yes, some routines would >> have to be written in machine code because they need to be as fast as >possible >> - but many others could even be written in Basic if it was needed. > >I am seriously hoping this is a joke because I cannot think of a single >thing that could possibly be written in BASIC. No, no joke at all. > >> Unless you understand how to approach the writing of an operating >> system/interpreter (and after a lot of studying over 20 odd years, I think >I >> do) you will not appreciate that speed is not everything (every time). > >Maybe on a Pentium not, but on a Z80 I think that and program >conciseness is the key points you should be looking at. The first systems I was involved in had little more speed than a Spectrum. That did not stop us writing programs in Cobol. It all depends on what need doing. > >> Oh, and just in passing, he was one of two programmers I lent to Memotech >to >> write the original ROM for the MTX machine. He also had several games >> published for the Spectrum (and other machines) in the early 80s before >> concentrating on Eagal Star. He now works for a large company based in >> Amsterdam. > >Thank you this helps ... > >Lee. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:57 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980313120153.006e8da8@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:01:53 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 846 Lines: 18 At 11:48 AM 3/13/98 EST, you wrote: >There are many things that CANNOT be explained easily through emails - you >need the feedback of a face to face (or telephone) conversation to get the >message over (or to have a proper debate). One thing I am considering is >hiring the back room of the hall we hold the shows at for a Saturday in a few >months time so that some real groundwork could be done. Would anyone be >interested if I was to arrange that? I'd be interested in knowing the outcome of such a meeting, but there's no way I could make it. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 17:24:58 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980313115859.006e57e4@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:58:59 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: SAMpling In-Reply-To: References: <2d726f11.35090d4b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 956 Lines: 22 At 12:52 PM 3/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >Do you own... > The Quazar Surround Sound Interface? > Nev's Hard Drive > 1Mb memory upgrade (if so, how many?) > Printer/Serial comms interface I'd also add that the 1Mb interface question is very important; it lets us know whether to bother supporting it any more for the general SAM user (for example, if we didn't have to, we could use that for source code when assembling and testing on the SAM). Also asking them if they'd be interested in buying external memory if more software became available that used it... Another important question: what kind of software would these people like to see on the SAM? Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From imc Fri Mar 13 18:24:49 1998 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:24:49 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3486c7db.3509634c@aol.com> from "BrenchleyR" at Mar 13, 98 11:48:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 530 Lines: 17 On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:10 EST, BrenchleyR said: > In a message dated 13/03/98 12:33:02, you write: > >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:43 EST, BillRitman said: > >> What is Dejanews whan its at home? > >I think I'll let Bob tell him. > Something that affect people outside of AOL but has little relivence to people > inside AOL. Is the wrong answer. Deja News is www.dejanews.com which holds archives of almost all non-binary newsgroups in existence. > Does that help Ian? Yes, you fell into my evil trap. Muahahaha.... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 18:31:27 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980313131337.006bd4dc@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:13:37 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: SMLU-C Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2813 Lines: 110 Hmmm... reading through a couple of compiler books has given me a bit of direction... Here's the basic structure I've got now: RUNTIME block: +----------------------+ 0 |runtime routines | +----------------------+ |local stack | +----------------------+ |variable heap | + - - - - - - - - - - -+ | | +----------------------+ &7FFF AUXILLIARY BLOCK +----------------------+ 0 |bouncer routines | +----------------------+ end_bouncer |local stack (2K? 4K?) | +----------------------+ local_stack |variable heap | + - - - - - - - - - - -+ | | +----------------------+ &7FFF Whenever a function is called, space is allocated for its parameters on the variable heap with a call to ALLOC_HEAP (this could be inlined depending on a compiler option). The heap is always pointed to by the IY register. Functions are passed the start of the heap by the IY register; ALLOC_HEAP keeps track of the next free space in the heap. ALLOC_HEAP starts off pointing to local_stack. ALLOC_FARHEAP works in a similar way, but allocates heap space for a function contained in another page. On the return from a call, DEALLOC_HEAP or DEALLOC_FARHEAP is called / inlined. As far as ALLOC_HEAP is concerned, IY always points to the start of the free space. BC contains the amount of space required. Here we go: ALLOC_HEAP: LD HL,(heap_ptr) PUSH HL ADD HL,BC JR C,outofspace BIT 7,H JR NZ,outofspace LD (heap_ptr),HL POP IY ;IY holds the start of the heap... RET outofspace: RST &08 ;print up "Out of heap space" error, and ;exit db OUTOFMEMORY ;BC= size of heap. DEALLOC_HEAP: LD HL,(heap_ptr) AND A SBC HL,BC LD (heap_ptr),HL RET NOTE: Dealloc heap could also be performed by stacking the heap pointer, if we inlined the function. This would avoid the need for BC to be stored. ;Assumes that the page we're jumping to is paged high. ;far_heap_ptr is in the same place as heap_ptr, but + 32768. ALLOC_FARHEAP: LD HL,(far_heap_ptr) PUSH HL ADD HL,BC JR C,outofspace BIT 7,H JR NZ,outofspace LD (far_heap_ptr),HL POP IY ;IY holds the start of the heap... RET outofspace: RST &08 ;print up "Out of heap space" error, and ;exit db OUTOFMEMORY ;BC= size of heap. DEALLOC_FARHEAP: LD HL,(far_heap_ptr) AND A SBC HL,BC LD (far_heap_ptr),HL RET This seems a reasonable solution; also allows IY to do simple indexing on the variable heap. Any questions/ideas/comments? Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 20:00:20 1998 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:02:15 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: SAMpling In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 196 Lines: 8 In article , Andrew Collier writes >What Sam magazines dou you read [every month, Chance would be a fine thing... -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 20:51:06 1998 From: davidm@enterprise.net (David Munden) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: the plan for sam Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:32:45 GMT Message-ID: <35080db9.3920691@mail.enterprise.net> References: <199803111805.SAA15628@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> <35061883.3E5C@postmaster.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <35061883.3E5C@postmaster.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 266 Lines: 11 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:52:19 -0800, you wrote: > >BTW as far as I remember, the graphics weren't doctored. Unless Dan >tweaked >them a little...? The only doctoring I remember were the pictures that Colin Jordan altered in his sas demo game. _ |_)avid (\/)unden From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 20:51:06 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980313153432.006bd80c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:34:32 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: SMLU-C Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 494 Lines: 12 New bit to add on: Functions which don't dereference pointers can be placed in high memory. If they reference static data which can be put in that page, then they'll be put high too... That is all, Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Mar 13 22:58:49 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980313174736.006bf39c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:47:36 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: TCP/IP stack Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 995 Lines: 24 >From what I can tell, it looks feasible to do.. just implement the PALMOS version of it on the SAM. I'm thinking of using BASIC as the dial-up scripting system, if I can patch enough commands into it too :) Mind you, net programs would all have to use a specific API, load themselves into memory in a specific way, follow certain rules... But I think it's not impossible. And yes, that's right. I said I'm thinking of using BASIC for the dial-up scripting for SLIP/PPP. Maybe overkill, but hey, it'd work. My God. I agreed with Bob. Maybe not entirely, but hey. Now all that matters is whether or not I can get it to spawn off BASIC programs and run them at my whim. Maybe possible. Maybe not. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 01:54:33 1998 Message-ID: <8mB$yAAMAeC1EwZI@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 01:40:28 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Graham Goring Subject: Ummm... I feel a right berk, but... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980313174736.006bf39c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 <8OHKkEUpoELRXgFKFsA4hwDBr8> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 540 Lines: 14 Arse! I lost the unsubbing instructions, can someone remind me of them? Heh heh heh... Graham -- /====================================================\ +--------------+ | My proverb for this week: | |This Space For| | "The less bits, the less can go wrong... | | Hire - Ideal | | Unless you wobble something important at the back" | |For Weddings &| \==Graham Goring - graham@duketastrophy.demon.co.uk==/ | Bahmitzvas | My Website, coming to a server near you - SOON +--------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 10:59:32 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <13321903.350a60e1@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:50:06 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 537 Lines: 17 In a message dated 13/03/98 12:32:56, you write: > > On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:41 EST, BillRitman said: > > Sorry, but that is the way AOL software works. I guess it makes the > assumption > > that the person you are replying to knows he is "you". > > Now come on, Bill, you've got fingers. How long does it take to > go up to that "you", delete it and type the name of the person? > > imc > But why should I alter the way that the software does it? Complain to AOL if you like, I'm happy with the way it works. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 10:59:33 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:53:22 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 528 Lines: 29 In a message dated 13/03/98 17:29:00, you write: > > In a message dated 13/03/98 12:33:02, you write: > > >o > > > >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:43 EST, BillRitman said: > >> What is Dejanews whan its at home? > > > >Where have you been - Mars? > > > >I think I'll let Bob tell him. > > > >imc > > Something that affect people outside of AOL but has little relivence to > people > inside AOL. Big help? Thanks. > > Does that help Ian? > > -- > Bob. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 11:41:30 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:35:47 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Gloucester In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <6265D97168@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 40 Lines: 5 Hi, When is the Gloucester show? MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 14:11:07 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ILGW @ C&L NL @ C&L INT @ C&L INT EXTERNAL@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND From: Stefan Drissen To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Message-ID: <862565C7.004DD90B.00@internet-502.interliant.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:25:09 +0100 Subject: Re: hurry,hurry,hurry... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1351 Lines: 40 >>ie I want to buy my train ticket *now* to get it cheaper, so I'm looking for >>someone else to turn up so I won't have to go out on my tod. Those nasty boys >>in the nightclub might start a real fight then... > >And don't forget the nasty girls :) >> >>C > >-- >Bob. Seems like I missed out more last time than the memory lapse the time before! It is not looking very likely as to if I'm going to be able to make it to Gloucester. :( -- **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From imc Sat Mar 14 15:36:24 1998 Subject: Re: the plan for sam To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 15:36:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <13321903.350a60e1@aol.com> from "BillRitman" at Mar 14, 98 05:50:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 764 Lines: 18 On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:50:06 EST, BillRitman said: > In a message dated 13/03/98 12:32:56, you write: > > Now come on, Bill, you've got fingers. How long does it take to > > go up to that "you", delete it and type the name of the person? > But why should I alter the way that the software does it? I'm not asking you to change the software. I'm asking you to type the name of the person you are responding to. Come on, answer the question. How long would it take you to type it in comparison with the tine for the rest of the mail? > Complain to AOL if > you like, I'm happy with the way it works. *You're* happy? It's we who have to read it. Be different from Bob just once in your life. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 15:49:31 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <49788100.350aa576@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:42:44 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 969 Lines: 33 In a message dated 13/03/98 18:33:13, you write: > >On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:10 EST, BrenchleyR said: >> In a message dated 13/03/98 12:33:02, you write: >> >On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:43 EST, BillRitman said: >> >> What is Dejanews whan its at home? >> >I think I'll let Bob tell him. > >> Something that affect people outside of AOL but has little relivence to >people >> inside AOL. > >Is the wrong answer. Deja News is www.dejanews.com which holds archives >of almost all non-binary newsgroups in existence. Nearly right, it hold archives of all messages from standard usenet newsgroups (excluding most binaries). It does not hold archives of groups defind as 'local' by an ISP, nor does it hold the large number of non-usenet newsgroups supported by the likes of AOL, Compuserve, MSM (I'm told) and other 'extended service providers'. > >> Does that help Ian? > >Yes, you fell into my evil trap. Muahahaha.... Or ddi you fall into mine? > >imc -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 15:49:32 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <4f7a3d7e.350aa570@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:42:40 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Gloucester Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 133 Lines: 15 In a message dated 14/03/98 11:37:56, you write: > >Hi, > >When is the Gloucester show? > >MJC. > > Saturday 4th April. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 15:49:33 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <6596d500.350aa56c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:42:42 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SAMpling Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 890 Lines: 25 In a message dated 13/03/98 17:29:18, you write: >At 12:52 PM 3/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >>Do you own... >> The Quazar Surround Sound Interface? >> Nev's Hard Drive >> 1Mb memory upgrade (if so, how many?) >> Printer/Serial comms interface > >I'd also add that the 1Mb interface question is very important; it lets us >know whether to bother supporting it any more for the general SAM user (for >example, if we didn't have to, we could use that for source code when >assembling and testing on the SAM). Also asking them if they'd be >interested in buying external memory if more software became available that >used it... > >Another important question: what kind of software would these people like >to see on the SAM? Very good point, the answers will differ a lot (revelation did something similar a couple or more years ago and the answers were all over the place). -- Bob. From imc Sat Mar 14 16:18:46 1998 Subject: Re: Anonymous Users To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:18:46 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <49788100.350aa576@aol.com> from "BrenchleyR" at Mar 14, 98 10:42:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 436 Lines: 10 On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:42:44 EST, someone unimportant said: > It does not hold archives of groups defind as > 'local' by an ISP, nor does it hold the large number of non-usenet newsgroups > supported by the likes of AOL, Compuserve, MSM (I'm told) and other 'extended > service providers'. I omitted that detail as obvious since there is no reason why Deja News would even know about those newsgroups. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 18:14:51 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980314130503.006e7f2c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:05:03 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: TCP/IP stack In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980313174736.006bf39c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1556 Lines: 35 At 05:47 PM 3/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >My God. I agreed with Bob. Maybe not entirely, but hey. Now all that >matters is whether or not I can get it to spawn off BASIC programs and run >them at my whim. Maybe possible. Maybe not. Looking at this idea again, I reckon it might take more effort to do this with BASIC than to write the entire TCP/IP stack. Erk. BTW: looking at the stack idea, I reckon that I can squeeze about 4 simultaneous sockets into the system. Each of which will have a 4K maximum window size for send & receive. Anyone know if this is big enough, or will I have to drop it down to 2 sockets? (I might be able to fit more in, if the TCP/IP code is small enough). Anyone got any good ideas how to implement multitasking on the SAM? The Comms controller has a built in counter/timer that might be good for triggering a task-switch, but on the whole, I'm a little wary of context switching for speed reasons. Would it be just better to allow only one program access to the sockets at a time, and have it poll to see if they're free (effectively blocking, but at this point, who cares?). Or alternatively, the system could loop round, looking at each socket in turn. If it's not ready, loop round for a while longer. Decisions decisions. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Mar 14 22:08:53 1998 Message-Id: <199803142200.WAA18069@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:00:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Gloucester In-reply-to: <4f7a3d7e.350aa570@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 228 Lines: 10 > >When is the Gloucester show? > Saturday 4th April. normally, i ignore these discussions, usually because i'm not free (busy at uni) turns out i could make the 4th of april, if i wanted. so what's the 'show' all about? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 15 14:28:58 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: POSTMASTER From: Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <802565C8.004F5B7D.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:26:49 +0000 Subject: Re: Gloucester Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 441 Lines: 22 | > >When is the Gloucester show? | > Saturday 4th April. | | normally, i ignore these discussions, usually because i'm not | free (busy at uni) | | turns out i could make the 4th of april, if i wanted. | | | so what's the 'show' all about? Spectrum and SAM would you believe? -- Samsboss - The One And Only. Accept No Others. ___________________________________ To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 15 18:40:29 1998 Message-ID: <350B3A2D.2218@postmaster.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:17:17 -0800 From: David Ledbury Organization: The Foundation for Green Eggs & Ham X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Monitors... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 205 Lines: 11 Okay... SAM related questions time... Are RGB monitors compatible with SAM, and which types? Is it possible to connect any other types of monitor... or are we talking MAJOR hardware hassles? Ta, David From imc Sun Mar 15 22:21:24 1998 Subject: Re: Books! To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:21:24 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199803121748.RAA22273@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Mar 12, 98 05:47:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 378 Lines: 12 On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:47:37 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > > It is neither blue nor sub-A6. The cover does however look like it > > was drawn on graph paper. > but bluey-white, small, and paperback, right? The cover has blue squares and a blue title on a white background, and a big picture of an IC. The book measures 110 by 177 mm. The other one is similar but green. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Mar 15 22:47:15 1998 Message-Id: <199803152244.WAA11091@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:44:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Books! In-reply-to: <199803152221.WAA01216@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <199803121748.RAA22273@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Mar 12, 98 05:47:37 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 320 Lines: 9 > The cover has blue squares and a blue title on a white background, > and a big picture of an IC. The book measures 110 by 177 mm. yeh, that's the same one. ok, i was a bit off when i said sub-A6... i didn't realise quite how small A4 was.. so, any offers (anyone) for one or both of the copies of this book? dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 04:59:04 1998 Message-ID: <19980316045522.5321.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [38.11.122.120] From: Kate Vega To: lipgloss@bolis.com Cc: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: (whimper) Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:55:22 PST X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 476 Lines: 27 > >This is why I'm never going let anyone put a picture of me on the internet >ever again. > >http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/4534/sturdy.html > >Luv, > > > >Mark > >"I'm bending over to tie my shoelaces and this bloke come up to me and >says 'Mate, your shredded wheat's showing'. I think he was showing out." > > I WANNA LIK JARVISS UP AND DOWN!!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 10:47:53 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: (whimper) References: <19980316045522.5321.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 16 Mar 1998 10:34:57 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Kate Vega"'s message of "Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:55:22 PST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 285 Lines: 11 "Kate Vega" writes: > I WANNA LIK JARVISS UP AND DOWN!!! You really should get your CAPS LOCK key fixed, oh and while we're at it if you haven't got anything to say that's relevant to sam-users please piss off and don't mail it. Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 11:03:12 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: (whimper) References: <19980316045522.5321.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 16 Mar 1998 10:57:52 +0000 In-Reply-To: The Giggler's message of "16 Mar 1998 10:34:57 +0000" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 437 Lines: 19 The Giggler writes: > "Kate Vega" writes: > > > I WANNA LIK JARVISS UP AND DOWN!!! > > You really should get your CAPS LOCK key fixed, oh and while we're at it > if you haven't got anything to say that's relevant to sam-users please > piss off and don't mail it. > > Lee. > -- > Yawn And Walk North Oops, sorry everyone, pressed the wrong darn key :( Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From imc Mon Mar 16 11:24:35 1998 Subject: Re: (whimper) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:24:35 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "The Giggler" at Mar 16, 98 10:57:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 200 Lines: 7 On 16 Mar 1998 10:57:52 +0000, The Giggler said: > Oops, sorry everyone, pressed the wrong darn key :( Hmm, my computer doesn't even have _any_ "darn key", let alone a right and a wrong one... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 12:52:24 1998 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:35:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave Handley To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Irrelevant stuff about replies... In-Reply-To: <199803141536.PAA28384@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 978 Lines: 26 On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Ian Collier wrote: > I'm not asking you to change the software. I'm asking you to type the > name of the person you are responding to. Come on, answer the question. > How long would it take you to type it in comparison with the tine for the > rest of the mail? > > > Complain to AOL if > > you like, I'm happy with the way it works. > > *You're* happy? It's we who have to read it. Be different from Bob just > once in your life. Err, it doesn't actually bother me in the slightest. Looks like my mail prog puts the name in, but if it didn't then I wouldn't bother doing it manually. Methinks you're being a bit pedantic! Dave ,---------------------------------------------------------, ,/ Dave Handley / ,/ Email - d.handley@lancaster.ac.uk /' / Visit - http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/handley/index.htm /' `---------------------------------------------------------' From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 15:03:46 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:37:25 GMT+0 Subject: Re: the plan for sam X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 294 Lines: 15 > Don'y know about Bill, but I'm not doing something like that > manually to please anyone. Too busy doing stuff manually to please yourself?! ;-) > -- > Bob. Peace, Love, Kisses... Johnna Pig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "I just want my future to live up to my past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 15:30:55 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Irrelevant stuff about replies... References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 16 Mar 1998 15:17:26 +0000 In-Reply-To: Dave Handley's message of "Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:35:25 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 539 Lines: 19 Dave Handley writes: > On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Ian Collier wrote: > > Err, it doesn't actually bother me in the slightest. Looks like my mail > prog puts the name in, but if it didn't then I wouldn't > bother doing it manually. > > Methinks you're being a bit pedantic! But when you get articles being quoted left right and centre then it does matter because it means we have to wade back through articles to see who the you in Bob/Bill's posts actually refers to ... Awkward Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 15:30:55 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 16 Mar 1998 15:23:03 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:14 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1897 Lines: 44 BrenchleyR writes: > In a message dated 13/03/98 13:57:22, Lee wrote: > > > >Yes but if you are using his opinions to justify a point then you do > >need to validate claims made otherwise your argument will NOT be taken > >seriously. You can't expect to say here is my expert so everyone believe > >him and just expect it to happen without justifying it. > > No. > > I expect to be able to say that, having considered all the facts, listened to > opinions and applied my own past experience to the matter, I have reach a > conclusion. No. You may reach an informed _opinion_ not a conclusion, and it is not your place to tell us to accept this opinion unless you give us reasons to. You wouldn't have reached that opinion without the evidence that you've had, so why do you expect us to accept it without similar evidence. > I do not expect ever decision to be pounce upon and torn to shreds. I do not > expect to have to explain each and every decision in minute detail often to > people who do not have the experience to be able to understand the explanation > in the first place. That's one of your problems Bob, you seem to think that you know more than everyone on this list and refuse to accept that they may in fact have valid experience/opinions to contribute, yet you seem to take the opinion of a mainframe programmer (for example) over people who have been pushing he SAM to its limits for years without so much as a sensible discussion ... > I do take on board EVERYTHING that is said. That I reject some things is not a > decision that is taken lightly, but I have not got the time to explain ever > decision in writing to the satisfaction of every person reading this list > (especially as a couple of them just go out of their way to pick arguments.) Maybe you do, but at times it just doesn't come across that way ... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 15:30:57 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. References: <1a9a485a.3509634d@aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 16 Mar 1998 15:25:18 +0000 In-Reply-To: BrenchleyR's message of "Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:48:12 EST" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 788 Lines: 25 BrenchleyR writes: > In a message dated 13/03/98 13:27:30, you write: > > >> Yes, some routines would have to be written in machine code because > >> they need to be as fast as possible - but many others could even be > >> written in Basic if it was needed. > > > >I am seriously hoping this is a joke because I cannot think of a single > >thing that could possibly be written in BASIC. > > No, no joke at all. Name one part of an OS that could be written (Effectively) in BASIC ... > The first systems I was involved in had little more speed than a Spectrum. > That did not stop us writing programs in Cobol. It all depends on what need > doing. A fast efficient OS, which you will not get with something written in SAM C/BASIC. Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 17:00:19 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: UMIST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:12:59 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Gloucester X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <804DF37ED@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 63 Lines: 5 > Saturday 4th April. When is the next one after that? MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 19:31:47 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Peter Farrell Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:24:15 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <351670f1.91059250@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980310154954.006cf874@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980310154954.006cf874@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 370 Lines: 18 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:49:54 -0500, you wrote: > At 03:38 PM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Status: > > > >Um... folks... I think we scared him off. > > > >He's unsubbed. > > But, on a lighter note, Nev's back! > > >waves< hello Nev! > Shhhhhh !!! I'm incognito. After reading through 200+ msgs and finding most still filled with fighting, I may not stay long. ;( From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 22:18:14 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <399e90cb.350da172@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:02:24 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2758 Lines: 63 In a message dated 16/03/98 15:49:59, you write: > >No. > >You may reach an informed _opinion_ not a conclusion, and it is not your >place to tell us to accept this opinion unless you give us reasons >to. You wouldn't have reached that opinion without the evidence that >you've had, so why do you expect us to accept it without similar evidence. Because, if, in this life, each individual person had to absorb the evidence themselves, we would still be in the stone-age. There are times in life when you just have to accept that someone has reached a conclusion and respect that conclusion unless you have evidence to the contrary. > >> I do not expect ever decision to be pounce upon and torn to shreds. I do >not >> expect to have to explain each and every decision in minute detail often to >> people who do not have the experience to be able to understand the >explanation >> in the first place. > >That's one of your problems Bob, you seem to think that you know more >than everyone on this list and refuse to accept that they may in fact >have valid experience/opinions to contribute, yet you seem to take the >opinion of a mainframe programmer (for example) over people who have >been pushing he SAM to its limits for years without so much as a >sensible discussion ... I respect people who have proved themselves. Not only in programming but in business, and in life in general. I have taken time, much time, to explain why certain things need to be done. Why should I go on knocking my head against a brick wall? The future of SAM has to rest with a project that takes things step by step. I've mapped out those steps - they are not set in stone, the order of some things may change as things are discovered. But the basic order is the right one to start with. Some will not agree, that is their right - what is not their right is to set out to hold things back as some have tried to do over the last year. In the time since the idea of the project was first raised we could have had our new ROM and DOS and HDOS - if only people had co-operated. We could now be working towards other nice things, if only people had co- operated. Apart from Colin McDonald, I appear to be the only person here with any experience of running a business. I have been doing so since 1982 - does that tell you something? >> I do take on board EVERYTHING that is said. That I reject some things is >not a >> decision that is taken lightly, but I have not got the time to explain ever >> decision in writing to the satisfaction of every person reading this list >> (especially as a couple of them just go out of their way to pick >arguments.) > >Maybe you do, but at times it just doesn't come across that way ... > >Lee. >-- >Yawn And Walk North > > > -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 22:18:16 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:02:27 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1336 Lines: 41 In a message dated 16/03/98 15:50:01, you write: >o > >BrenchleyR writes: > >> In a message dated 13/03/98 13:27:30, you write: >> >> >> Yes, some routines would have to be written in machine code because >> >> they need to be as fast as possible - but many others could even be >> >> written in Basic if it was needed. >> > >> >I am seriously hoping this is a joke because I cannot think of a single >> >thing that could possibly be written in BASIC. >> >> No, no joke at all. > >Name one part of an OS that could be written (Effectively) in BASIC ... Error handling and disc formatting would be two examples off the top of my head. But that is not the real point. You can start with any lanuage to prove a concept, then speed up the bits that are needed to get an acceptable overall speed. I would imagine that, when we get as far as a Z380 based system (which is a long way away) quite a lot can stay in C, and the speed of writing the overall code will force its use for most of the system. > >> The first systems I was involved in had little more speed than a Spectrum. >> That did not stop us writing programs in Cobol. It all depends on what need >> doing. > >A fast efficient OS, which you will not get with something written in >SAM C/BASIC. Who said anything about SAM C/Basic ? > >Lee. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 22:18:16 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <6d8553cb.350da173@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:02:28 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Gloucester Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 150 Lines: 15 In a message dated 16/03/98 19:04:38, you write: > >> Saturday 4th April. > >When is the next one after that? > >MJC. > > 17th October. -- Bob. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 22:25:42 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980316171321.006e9d0c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:13:21 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-Reply-To: <399e90cb.350da172@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1880 Lines: 36 >The future of SAM has to rest with a project that takes things step by step. >I've mapped out those steps - they are not set in stone, the order of some >things may change as things are discovered. But the basic order is the right >one to start with. Some will not agree, that is their right - what is not >their right is to set out to hold things back as some have tried to do over >the last year. In the time since the idea of the project was first raised we >could have had our new ROM and DOS and HDOS - if only people had co-operated. >We could now be working towards other nice things, if only people had co- >operated. Bob... you've got all the experts. If you want to go ahead and work on a project, then do so -- don't just moan because the users list didn't jump to its feet and start working on it. This list is counter-productive at best. Take all the things I've posted up about TCP/IP stacks and SMLU-C in the past few days. I've had two private replies about it, but nothing from anyone else. Not even anyone telling me that it'd be a good or bad idea. So for the moment, I'm working on my Z80 Assembler in C, which will output symbol tables and object files, which can then be linked together at some point -- so code libraries could possibly be maintained (I'm not sure what kind of functionality is even required by programmers for that; I mean, I could just come up with a COMET-a-like and be done with it). And I'm seeing if I can come up with a TCP/IP implementation. Which looks quite promising, but I don't have any hardware here to write it on. Oh well. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 22:25:43 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980316171555.006e99a0@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:15:55 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1045 Lines: 27 >Error handling and disc formatting would be two examples off the top of my >head. But that is not the real point. You can start with any lanuage to prove >a concept, then speed up the bits that are needed to get an acceptable overall >speed. Hmmm.... not for disk formatting you can't -- unless you're talking about the hard drive. Even the DOS, written in optimised assembly, writes about a 6/7K buffer full of the format data and blasts that to disk as it can't do it fast enough to do it on the fly. >>A fast efficient OS, which you will not get with something written in >>SAM C/BASIC. > >Who said anything about SAM C/Basic ? How else is Joe-Q-SAMOwner supposed to get in on the game? Unless we all go out and buy the C compiler Nev used. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 23:29:15 1998 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:17:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Dave Handley To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Irrelevant stuff about replies... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 834 Lines: 20 On 16 Mar 1998, The Giggler wrote: > But when you get articles being quoted left right and centre then it > does matter because it means we have to wade back through articles to > see who the you in Bob/Bill's posts actually refers to ... > > Awkward Fairy nuff. I guess I can't really comment seeing as though I don't post things to the list that often. Personally, I manage to follow the arguments without any problems, but I find it pretty easy to tell who's written what just by the writing style... Dave ,---------------------------------------------------------, ,/ Dave Handley / ,/ Email - d.handley@lancaster.ac.uk /' / Visit - http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/handley/index.htm /' `---------------------------------------------------------' From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Mar 16 23:29:15 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <399e90cb.350da172@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:22:50 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 4398 Lines: 91 At 10:02 pm +0000 16/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: >I respect people who have proved themselves. Not only in programming but in >business, and in life in general. I have taken time, much time, to explain why Why has business skill got anything to do with whether or not a decent operating system could be written in Sam C? >certain things need to be done. Why should I go on knocking my head against a >brick wall? Because everybody else seems to have to. Look, we've been pointing out in minute detail exactly why we don't think your ideas are useful. The least you can do is reply, in similar detail. Please consider, for example, my message of Wednesday 11 March, 19:46 "Re: Working Together - was The Plan For SAM.". I've stated my case, please state yours. So far you have not, repeat NOT explained WHY your ideas are correct. You've told us about your background, about your friends, and told us how obviously correct you are. But you're vague, Bob. Never once have such arguments been directly related to the matter in hand. Never once have you actually justified youself in any way shape or form. Never once have you actually shown that you have considered the details for yourself which, you say, are too complicated for use mere mortals to understand. Never once have you inspired my confidence in your leadership. Respect has to be earned. I may not have yours - and you don't have mine. You can run a business, and that's fine by me. I am happy to accept that you have more experience of running a business than any other people on this list. But frankly it's less useful to this discussion than experience of Sam programming, and despite asking I haven't seen any evidence of you writing Sam machine code. Until you have shown some of the technical eptitude you keep boasting about, your unsubstantiated comments will not hold water. ... >one to start with. Some will not agree, that is their right - what is not >their right is to set out to hold things back as some have tried to do over >the last year. In the time since the idea of the project was first raised we >could have had our new ROM and DOS and HDOS - if only people had co-operated. Right, please be specific. What exactly have I (or anybody else, although it's perfectly plain who you're talking about) done to delay the production of the SRAM board? I've said that I think another design would be more helpful, but since you've so obviously ignored my comments then I don't see how I've delayed your project. >We could now be working towards other nice things, if only people had co- >operated. Co-operated *with you*, you mean. Of course, if you had cooperated with Simon then we'd have the accelerator-based Samson motherboard by now and lots of faster Sam software. That would be a very productive step in itself, but we'd probably also have a few Z380-native applications too, and probably be well on the way to a rewritten and improved operating system. But that's all talk. Of course, the real reason nothing's happenned is that anybody who might have been interested in working on the project has been put off by the fact that you waltzed onto this list, told people that they're wrong because you *know* they're wrong, and that they wouldn't understand the reasons why they're wrong even if you could be bothered to tell them. Deny it? On a lighter note.... I'm going home for Easter tomorrow afternoon. But I'll stay logged on to the list - so we'll be able to see if I really was the only thing standing in the way of the SRAM project. I will probably be going to the Gloucester show... If all the technicalities work okay then carou.sel should still respond to web requests even though it isn't there; although CGIs and counters may well stop working, the changeover should hopefully be more or less transparent. Have a restful and productive vacation (as my director of studies might say...) Andrew --- +-----------------+----------------------------+--------------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | " | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk | Get your kicks | +-----------------+----------------------------+ on 8.124038405 | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | " | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | anon | +----------------------------------------------+--------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 02:33:58 1998 Message-Id: <199803170229.CAA20964@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:29:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-reply-to: <399e90cb.350da172@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 558 Lines: 15 > Because, if, in this life, each individual person had to absorb the evidence > themselves, we would still be in the stone-age. There are times in life when > you just have to accept that someone has reached a conclusion and respect that > conclusion unless you have evidence to the contrary. bollocks. i claim that people do not even need to absorb the evidence to feel happy, but it's always a nice touch to present them with some *form* of evidence. rather than just say 'look, i'm right, let's just take that as read and carry on shall we?' dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 02:38:17 1998 Message-Id: <199803170234.CAA21164@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:34:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The Plan for SAM. In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1178 Lines: 32 > Error handling and disc formatting would be two examples off the top of my > head. But that is not the real point. You can start with any lanuage to prove > a concept, then speed up the bits that are needed to get an acceptable overall > speed. technically i suppose, yes. in practice, of course, everyone who's anyone knows full well that the finished product (if indeed there will be one) will never be written in Basic and that every component will have to be written in either assembler or (if you insist) sam C. and the point there would be that, if you are set to write the OS in Basic first, and then tweak it until it's acceptable (and that doesn't just mean speed, it means security and reliability too), then why not just sit down, think a little harder at the start, and save yourself the job of rewriting a basic program in machine code. just do it in code from the outset. or (if you insist) sam c. i dispute the claim that you can start with any language to prove a concept, especially in the art of operating-system design. and especially in the case of sam basic. > Who said anything about SAM C/Basic ? er, you i believe, repeatedly dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 10:14:38 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <002565CA.0035B58A.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:47:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 306 Lines: 11 Bob wrote: > Apart from Colin McDonald, I appear to be the only person here with > any experience of running a business. I have been doing so since 1982 - does > that tell you something? That it's boring and unchallenging? That's the impression I got when we had to do the business crap at uni! Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 10:14:40 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <002565CA.0035D4EF.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:51:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 609 Lines: 19 Simon C wrote: >This list is counter-productive at best. Take all the things I've posted up >about TCP/IP stacks and SMLU-C in the past few days. I've had two private >replies about it, but nothing from anyone else. Not even anyone telling me >that it'd be a good or bad idea. I remember right at the start of the SMLU-C thread that you said that anyone without the neccesary C/Assembler expertise should stay out of the discussion... I've used C and Assembler in real-time projects but I wouldn't have said that I knew enough to write a compiler... And it is a good idea! I'll be a beta tester.. Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 13:40:05 1998 Illegal-Object: Syntax error in Message-Id: value found on sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no: Message-Id: ^-Extraneous program text From: Dan Doore Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:33:07 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: RE: hurry,hurry,hurry... MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: TFS Gateway /310000000/310102093/310102123/310460310/ X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <19980317133358Z49508-22279+710@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 352 Lines: 15 > Get yer votes in for a "lets get plastered in Gloucester" weekend > everyone! I'm coming this time, although I won't be down on Friday since I won't have the time to get down, but I'll be out on Saturday night. Mmmm... Lasagne from the Basket Weaver... Dan. Work: dan@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 14:35:20 1998 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:25:31 +0000 (GMT) From: SL Harding X-Sender: sh5655@harrier To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no cc: t t Subject: Forgot to read. In-Reply-To: <199803131642.QAA00675@ugs2.ph.bham.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 617 Lines: 21 Sorry to ask a stupid question that has probably been answered already on the list, but recently the list has tended to fill with such crap that I have not actually been reading it properly... How the hell do you get one of these funny '.dsk' files onto a real SAM disc? And as for the spat of requests for information about future SAM games, I spotted about a million messages above... Remind yourselfs by looking at the web page at http://www.bits.bris.ac.uk I haven't checked it recently but presume it is still there. What it refers to WILL be finished, and released via Persona I understand. C9 Numb. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 15:27:00 1998 Illegal-Object: Syntax error in Message-Id: value found on sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no: Message-Id: ^-Extraneous program text From: Dan Doore Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:18:00 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: RE: Forgot to read. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: TFS Gateway /310000000/310102093/310102123/310460310/ X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <19980317151859Z49541-22279+751@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Status: RO Content-Length: 432 Lines: 16 > How the hell do you get one of these funny '.dsk' files onto a real > SAM disc? Easiest way is to use a PC and the SAMDISK utility which will write the DSK file to a formatted Sam disc. You can also use Linux to write it out I think, Ian (imc) knows about this. SAMDISK is on NVG, or on my site http:/www.podboy.demon.co.uk/coupe/ Dan. Work: dan@bacg.com Shirk: dan@podboy.demon.co.uk VVeb: http://www.podboy.demon.co.uk/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 17:18:20 1998 Message-Id: <199803171706.RAA06128@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:50:36 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-reply-to: <002565CA.0035B58A.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 273 Lines: 10 > That it's boring and unchallenging? > That's the impression I got when we had to do the business crap at uni! .. no, probably that it's a different thing entirely. not boring and unchallenging, just... challenging in a different way... probably less fun, anyway dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 17:18:21 1998 Message-Id: <199803171707.RAA06482@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:53:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-reply-to: <002565CA.0035D4EF.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 815 Lines: 18 > >This list is counter-productive at best. Take all the things I've posted > up > >about TCP/IP stacks and SMLU-C in the past few days. I've had two private > >replies about it, but nothing from anyone else. Not even anyone telling me > >that it'd be a good or bad idea. well, i'm sure i said they'd both be good ideas, as long as yr prepared to put all the work in, etc. this is just me talking (er, obviously) but it's a hobby thing, right, just to see if it could be done? afaict there's no market (well, apart from us souls), but as a challenge then clearly they are both great ideas. in fact, a clever tcp/ip could look really good on a seevee. remind me again how SMLU-C is different to comet, etc? (i have this faint feeling that you are/were writing it on a pc, or was that something else?) dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 18:43:49 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980317133438.006c4f78@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:34:38 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-Reply-To: <002565CA.0035D4EF.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 972 Lines: 28 >I remember right at the start of the SMLU-C thread that you said that >anyone >without the neccesary C/Assembler expertise should stay out of the >discussion... >I've used C and Assembler in real-time projects but I wouldn't have said >that >I knew enough to write a compiler... > >And it is a good idea! I'll be a beta tester.. *grins* Well... I may have misjudged the list... I thought that there would be more people in that bracket :) Oh well... on with the grind. Spent most of yesterday constructing a finite state machine parser to take the EBCDIC output of a mainframe program and convert it into a database to be read on the PC. Good practice for the assembler! Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 19:04:54 1998 From: Samsboss@Postmaster.co.uk (Samsboss) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:54:18 GMT Organization: Brotherhood of man. Message-ID: <350ec63d.11723027@mail.enterprise.net> X-Mailer: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 7299 Lines: 163 In a message dated 16/03/98 23:31:16, you write: ^^^ ||| Now I suppose someone will complain because I don't manually insert the name Andrew Collier here because the software doesn't do it. Well tosh! I people want to use email for this sort of thing they have to accept what email software does. Okay, I've been reading, and knowing Bob is away today (happy birthday Bob) I thought I would just reply to this one. > At 10:02 pm +0000 16/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: > >I respect people who have proved themselves. Not only in programming but in > >business, and in life in general. I have taken time, much time, to explain > why > > Why has business skill got anything to do with whether or not a decent > operating system could be written in Sam C? Excuse me Andrew, but business skills have everything to do with the future of SAM, unless of course you are happy to see it remain a small interest machine so you can exaggerate your own importance. Do you think that SAM would still be around as a supported computer, with a flourishing user group, a printed magazine (or two), two good disk based mags, all the software that has been produced, add-ons still available and being developed, and even the machine still available NEW - if SAM had not been supported by people with some business skills? A question for you Andrew. Draw up a list what Bob and Format Publications has done for SAM over the years. Be honest. I know there are some things that you will not be aware of and I'm not going to belittle you if you can't list one of them, just make a list because that will tell us a lot about what you know of Bob's abilities. You see, I think you are so full of your own importance and abilities that you fail to see those in other people. You certainly have failed to give credit where credit was due several times in the past. So do a list, I'll even start you off with a few, see what you can add. Started INDUG in 1987. Worked with MGT on Disciple and +D DOS. Produced Format for over 10 years. Helped in design phase of SAM. Introduced Dr Andy Wright to Bruce Gordon. Run 9 shows in Gloucester. > > >certain things need to be done. Why should I go on knocking my head against > a > >brick wall? > > Because everybody else seems to have to. > > Look, we've been pointing out in minute detail exactly why we don't think > your ideas are useful. The least you can do is reply, in similar detail. Detail, what detail? Claims, mostly from you, but no detail. On the other hand, Bob has at least mapped out the project. > Please consider, for example, my message of Wednesday 11 March, 19:46 "Re: > Working Together - was The Plan For SAM.". I've stated my case, please > state yours. Don't you think he has done that? > > So far you have not, repeat NOT explained WHY your ideas are correct. > You've told us about your background, about your friends, and told us how > obviously correct you are. But you're vague, Bob. Never once have such > arguments been directly related to the matter in hand. Never once have you > actually justified youself in any way shape or form. Never once have you > actually shown that you have considered the details for yourself which, you > say, are too complicated for use mere mortals to understand. Never once > have you inspired my confidence in your leadership. Oh sad, I'm sure he is really heartbroken to hear that :) > > Respect has to be earned. I may not have yours - and you don't have mine. > You can run a business, and that's fine by me. I am happy to accept that > you have more experience of running a business than any other people on > this list. But frankly it's less useful to this discussion than experience > of Sam programming, and despite asking I haven't seen any evidence of you > writing Sam machine code. Until you have shown some of the technical > eptitude you keep boasting about, your unsubstantiated comments will not > hold water. And your's don't either. > > ... > > >one to start with. Some will not agree, that is their right - what is not > >their right is to set out to hold things back as some have tried to do over > >the last year. In the time since the idea of the project was first raised > we > >could have had our new ROM and DOS and HDOS - if only people had co- > operated. > > Right, please be specific. > > What exactly have I (or anybody else, although it's perfectly plain who > you're talking about) done to delay the production of the SRAM board? You mean you don't count the hundreds of messages you have put out since Bob first raised the idea of the project belittling his efforts, telling him that he can't possibly know what he is talking about, using you aggressive bully-boy tactics to get intimidate anyone who even hints at support for Bob, you don't think that all that has held things back? Cos I do. > > I've said that I think another design would be more helpful, but since > you've so obviously ignored my comments then I don't see how I've delayed > your project. And you have been told often enough that you cannot design something to interface with something that does not exist. For that reason the SRAM card cannot work with anything other than the existing SAM. > > >We could now be working towards other nice things, if only people had co- > >operated. > > Co-operated *with you*, you mean. Of course, if you had cooperated with > Simon then we'd have the accelerator-based Samson motherboard by now and > lots of faster Sam software. That would be a very productive step in > itself, but we'd probably also have a few Z380-native applications too, and > probably be well on the way to a rewritten and improved operating system. Rubbish. The accelerator may have proved an interesting toy, but what effect would that have had on existing users. SAM is fast enough for most people, I agree with Bob that the hard drive should be the first target, and as he has told you that needs the ROM/DOS fixing. > > But that's all talk. Of course, the real reason nothing's happenned is that > anybody who might have been interested in working on the project has been > put off by the fact that you waltzed onto this list, told people that > they're wrong because you *know* they're wrong, and that they wouldn't > understand the reasons why they're wrong even if you could be bothered to > tell them. Deny it? Just because he acts like you, you don't like it :) > > On a lighter note.... > > I'm going home for Easter tomorrow afternoon. But I'll stay logged on to > the list - so we'll be able to see if I really was the only thing standing > in the way of the SRAM project. I will probably be going to the Gloucester > show... If all the technicalities work okay then carou.sel should still > respond to web requests even though it isn't there; although CGIs and > counters may well stop working, the changeover should hopefully be more or > less transparent. > > Have a restful and productive vacation (as my director of studies might say.. And while you are away just think about things and try and come back in a more cooperative frame of mind. -- SamsBoss. The One And Only. Accept No Others. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 20:56:01 1998 From: arivyyrl@aqverpg.pb.hx (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: hurry,hurry,hurry... Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:51:10 GMT Organization: Message-ID: <351be223.6052461@mail.enterprise.net> References: <2147f81f.35084658@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <2147f81f.35084658@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 452 Lines: 12 On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:32:22 EST, you wrote: > Get yer votes in for a "lets get plastered in Gloucester" weekend everyone! > > Tis only a few weeks away now, and for once it'd be nice to be organised... > > ie I want to buy my train ticket *now* to get it cheaper, so I'm looking for > someone else to turn up so I won't have to go out on my tod. Those nasty boys > in the nightclub might start a real fight then... > I could be your bodyguard :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 21:10:08 1998 From: Gouranga Message-ID: <69a53792.350ee52d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:03:39 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2234 Lines: 63 Dull Dull Dull All this "I know best" stuff is boring me rigid. Chances of Simon Cooke, Andrew Collier, Justin Skists etc etc completing new SAM hardware project : ZERO. Chances of Bob completing same : above zero. Maybe not a sure-fire bags-of-cash keep-everyone-happy way, but Bob is THE ONLY WAY WE WILL EVER EVER EVER SEE ANYTHING NEW. I might not be actively doing SAM stuff for the first time in seven years, but I still dearly want the best for SAM, and all this bollocks going back and forth might fuel ego's, but it is this sort of thing more than anything else that is killing SAM. All against Bob should add up how much money they've made from SAM. This is an indication of your commercial history. Bob should add up all the programming and low-level design he's done on SAM. This is his technical history. And oddly enough, everyone should find that the two groups succeed, and fail, in different areas. Probably causing the arguments here. But what you'll also find is that the way work gets done in the real world is that groups with different skills, (like, gee, the ones we have here) each do what they're good at. Yes, I'm a patronising tosser. No, I'm not doing anything on SAM. How about Bob taking the design stuff out from this 'public' list and relying on the advice of a select few people that have the time, effort, and some technical experience to contribute valid comments. ie *not* "oh! ah! Bob, I think you're samsboss". From a business, and functional, point, people would be stupid not to respect Bob's opinion. That's what he excels at. Likewise, Bob would be stupid to ignore the (low-level) technical comments. That's what programmers excel at. But please, please, please, listen to me - I can't tell you *how* you should work together, or *how* you should implement certain features - or even *if* they should be in there, but given that although I don't excel at any of the areas here, I do have "sufficient experience" ie a degree in programming, 7 years running a business and now employed to manage software teams, and that everything said on this list screams of *DOING* ABSOLUTELY BUGGER ALL. Colin (Who accepts that some won't give a monkey's about my comments. Like I care.) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 21:26:10 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980317161506.006c3a10@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:15:06 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Current Plans for the Assembler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1595 Lines: 38 I've started speccing it out. The assembler currently looks like this: C Assembler core -- spits out object code & symbol tables C Linker core -- spits out resolved object code C Packager core -- spits out packaged files, split whichever way you like -- 32k pages, individual code fragments, you name it. VB 5.0 Application framework for the Win 32 version to provide a good environment to work in. Active X editor written in C++ to give that fancy "keywords in certain colours" look to the source code when editing it. Active X Wizards written in VB5.0 which will allow people to build an assembly language project framework from scratch. Help Files using HTML Help. Including SAM development help files (possibly -- these may be optional extras, as I want this to be a general Z80 assembler). --- If anyone has any ideas about how relocatable code fragments should work, if at all, please let me know :) Simon ps. The 3 C cores will be available as source code; the rest of it will be available as an installable package. If I get it all finished, it'll be shareware (but with no restrictions, message pops up when you load it), going for about 50 quid. SAM users get it for 10 quid. (Yes, there's a discrepancy, but hey, I can sell this to embedded systems manufacturers if I play it right...) +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From imc Tue Mar 17 21:33:16 1998 Subject: Re: Current Plans for the Assembler To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:33:16 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980317161506.006c3a10@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> from "Simon Cooke" at Mar 17, 98 04:15:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 599 Lines: 15 On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:15:06 -0500, Simon Cooke said: > I've started speccing it out. The assembler currently looks like this: > C Assembler core -- spits out object code & symbol tables > C Linker core -- spits out resolved object code > C Packager core -- spits out packaged files, split whichever way you like > -- 32k pages, individual code fragments, you name it. > VB 5.0 Application framework for the Win 32 version to provide a good If it requires Windows then I won't be using it. On the other hand, there's no guarantee that I'll be using it anyway so don't let that stop you... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 23:00:48 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980317163819.006ebe2c@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> X-Sender: scooke@nessie.mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:38:19 -0500 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Simon Cooke Subject: Re: Current Plans for the Assembler In-Reply-To: <199803172133.VAA07226@chalca.comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19980317161506.006c3a10@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1108 Lines: 26 At 09:33 PM 3/17/98 +0000, you wrote: >Status: > >On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:15:06 -0500, Simon Cooke said: >> I've started speccing it out. The assembler currently looks like this: >> C Assembler core -- spits out object code & symbol tables >> C Linker core -- spits out resolved object code >> C Packager core -- spits out packaged files, split whichever way you like >> -- 32k pages, individual code fragments, you name it. > >> VB 5.0 Application framework for the Win 32 version to provide a good > >If it requires Windows then I won't be using it. Just the application framework will; you'll be able to compile the assembler, packager and linker on UNIX or whatever and run it from the command line. But as I use windows, I'm going to stick a nice fancy project editor and shell around it. May as well. Simon +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "You know... you can tell someone's vain when they quote themselves | | in their own .sig file..." -- Simon Cooke | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Tue Mar 17 23:00:50 1998 From: SparkY To: sam-users Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:06:36 -0000 Message-Id: <01bd51f0$f3f59200$1b14a8c2@sparky> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2215 Lines: 47 -----Original Message----- From: Gouranga >Maybe not a sure-fire bags-of-cash keep-everyone-happy way, but Bob is THE >ONLY WAY WE WILL EVER EVER EVER SEE ANYTHING NEW. Erm, Persona might have a thing or two to say about that ;) >I might not be actively doing SAM stuff for the first time in seven years, but >I still dearly want the best for SAM, and all this bollocks going back and >forth might fuel ego's, but it is this sort of thing more than anything else >that is killing SAM. Totally agree. >How about Bob taking the design stuff out from this 'public' list and relying >on the advice of a select few people that have the time, effort, and some >technical experience to contribute valid comments. ie *not* "oh! ah! Bob, I >think you're samsboss". From a business, and functional, point, people would >be stupid not to respect Bob's opinion. That's what he excels at. Likewise, >Bob would be stupid to ignore the (low-level) technical comments. That's what >programmers excel at. The problem is, Bob posts details of what he thinks he should be done - presumably to find out what other people on the list think of it - and if they respond, with a different opinion, and often with an opinion based on considerable hardware and programming experience, Bob shoots them down, not by giving details of why he doesn't agree, but by comments such as "Joe Bloggs is a guy I know, and he says you're wrong", or "I've got the experience of 3000 years behind me, and you're wrong". Very few people on this list actually agree with anything Bob says (apart from, of course, Samsboss and Bill Ritman). Several months later, when none of the projects have got any further, Bob then turns round and says "You held us up". Bob, you clearly don't respect anyone's skills on this list, so instead of telling us what you are going to do, GO AND DO IT! PROVE US ALL WRONG AND DO SOMETHING! I have no respect for the guy at all, and he knows exactly why I don't, but if he actually gets round to doing something, and it seems even remotely worthwhile, I will certainly buy it. In the meantime, I'll be relying on companies like Persona and Quazar for the new, interesting software and hardware. Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 01:31:26 1998 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:32:33 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) In-Reply-To: <350ec63d.11723027@mail.enterprise.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 477 Lines: 17 In article <350ec63d.11723027@mail.enterprise.net>, Samsboss writes > Well >tosh! If people want to use email for this sort of thing they have to >accept what email software does. > 'Spose I sent you a letter, just a comment, didn't put my address at the top or sign it, and said "well tosh! - if you want to use paper you have to accept what paper does" You'd think I was a mindless, pointlessly agressive wanker, wouldn't you? -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 03:58:51 1998 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:55:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803180355.WAA28792@smtp3.erols.com> X-Mailer: HandStamp Pro 1.0 Subject: H2O Assembler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 738 Lines: 26 Here's the info on the project so far: Auto documentation: The assembler can be directed to create HTML documentation based on comments in the source file. It is hoped that this will make it easier to work on large projects. The document comments will have their NAME tags checked with the symbol table. Doc comments are bracketed with ;@DOC@ and ;@ENDDOC@ Package declarations should only appear at the start of a file, and document what the entire file covers. Other tags include: ;@NAME@ ;@AUTHOR@ ;@VERSION@ ;@DATE@ ;@REGISTERS@ More info later when I have a keyboard. Still working on the fine detail of the rest. Simon --- This message scribbled for you by hand on a Palmpilot. Please excuse brevity and spelling mistakes. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 07:18:04 1998 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:08:23 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9803180708.AA14264@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: H2O Assembler X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 974 Lines: 30 > Here's the info on the project so far: > > Auto documentation: > > The assembler can be directed to create HTML documentation based on comments in the source file. It is hoped that this will make it easier to work on large projects. The document comments will have their NAME tags checked with the symbol table. > > Doc comments are bracketed with > ;@DOC@ > and > ;@ENDDOC@ > > Package declarations should only appear at the start of a file, and document what the entire file covers. > > Other tags include: > > ;@NAME@ > ;@AUTHOR@ > ;@VERSION@ > ;@DATE@ > ;@REGISTERS@ > > More info later when I have a keyboard. Still working on the fine detail of the rest. Will this be a convention or a 'requirement' (ie. syntax checked)? If only a convention bear in mind that there will be coders which will only use this 'documentationtool' to a degree where it might more of a pain than a helpful source of information. Just an observation from past projects. -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 09:42:02 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: POSTMASTER From: Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <802565CB.0034ECCE.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:38:07 +0000 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1108 Lines: 43 | In article <350ec63d.11723027@mail.enterprise.net>, Samsboss | writes | > Well | >tosh! If people want to use email for this sort of thing they have to | >accept what email software does. | > | | 'Spose I sent you a letter, just a comment, didn't put my address at the | top or sign it, and said "well tosh! - if you want to use paper you have | to accept what paper does" If you wanted a reply you would put your address on it, if you didney want a reply there would be no need for it. But on email tis different ain't it? The details of sender are there for anyone that wants them, you don't have to put them in. Ok. When using email to do something that is normally done by newsgroup, that is run this user's interchange, you have to put up with the restrictions of peoples software. | | You'd think I was a mindless, pointlessly agressive wanker, wouldn't | you? No, of course not. | | | -- | Ian Dalziel -- Samsboss - The One And Only. Accept No Others. ___________________________________ To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 10:44:04 1998 From: askillma Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:15:41 +0000 (GMT) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: SimCoupe developement source code available Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1132 Lines: 26 Hi Guys, Well, you managed to twist my arm :) I have put up a zip archive of the DOS source for SimCoupe 0.76 (the latest developement release). You can find it on the same page as the binary developement version. If you want to build the code 'as is' you will need a copy of the gcc compiler utilities supplied in DJGPP v2 together with Gnu make and binary utilities (also available as part of DJGPP). On a different note, the Gloucester chow is coming up, and as I now have a car I will be driving down from Kettering. If anyone would like a lift and can either get to Kettering, or is on the route, let me know, and we can split the fuel costs. regards Allan +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | EDA Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | Advanced RISC Machines | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | allan.skillman@arm.com | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From imc Wed Mar 18 11:09:25 1998 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:09:25 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <802565CB.0034ECCE.00@uks.postmaster.co.uk> from "Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk" at Mar 18, 98 09:38:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 785 Lines: 24 On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:38:07 +0000, Samsboss@postmaster.co.uk said: > But on email tis different ain't it? The details of sender are there for > anyone > that wants them, you don't have to put them in. Except on your mails, "samsboss". > Ok. When using email to do something that is normally done by newsgroup, > that > is run this user's interchange, What are you waffling about? > you have to put up with the restrictions of > > peoples software. We are merely asking you to go up there and type the name (even the initials, anything would do) of the person you are replying to. Five seconds. Which is a lot less than the time it took you for all this pointless arguing. And anyway, what is your software, so we can avoid it in future? imc From imc Wed Mar 18 11:11:02 1998 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:11:02 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Ian Dalziel" at Mar 18, 98 00:32:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 397 Lines: 11 On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:32:33 +0000, Ian Dalziel said: > 'Spose I sent you a letter, just a comment, didn't put my address at the > top or sign it, and said "well tosh! - if you want to use paper you have > to accept what paper does" > You'd think I was a mindless, pointlessly agressive wanker, wouldn't > you? No he wouldn't, Ian, because he doesn't put his address on or sign it anyway. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 11:47:58 1998 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:59:54 +0100 From: ft@edh.ericsson.se (Frode Tenneboe) Message-Id: <9803181059.AA14615@asmal.edh-net> To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe developement source code available X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 361 Lines: 10 > On a different note, the Gloucester chow is coming up, and as I now have > a car I will be driving down from Kettering. If anyone would like a lift > and can either get to Kettering, or is on the route, let me know, and > we can split the fuel costs. It won't be the two of this year. Pretty amazing it has been a whole year since last time.... :/ -Frode From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Wed Mar 18 12:38:03 1998 From: BrenchleyR Message-ID: <7aa86f2.350fb812@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:03:27 EST To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Cc: asc25@cam.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Who? (Re: The Plan for SAM.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.i for Windows sub 18 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 7142 Lines: 152 In a message dated 16/03/98 23:31:16, you write: > At 10:02 pm +0000 16/3/98, BrenchleyR wrote: > >I respect people who have proved themselves. Not only in programming but in > >business, and in life in general. I have taken time, much time, to explain > why > > Why has business skill got anything to do with whether or not a decent > operating system could be written in Sam C? Oh come on Mr Collier, that is like saying what has breathing got to do with life. It doesn't matter how wonderful your skills/product is, if you can't promote/sell it in a business like and effective manner you can't make money - which is, as we all know, what makes the world go round. And again, who said anything about SAM C? > > >certain things need to be done. Why should I go on knocking my head against > a > >brick wall? > > Because everybody else seems to have to. > > Look, we've been pointing out in minute detail exactly why we don't think > your ideas are useful. The least you can do is reply, in similar detail. > Please consider, for example, my message of Wednesday 11 March, 19:46 "Re: > Working Together - was The Plan For SAM.". I've stated my case, please > state yours. I ignored that, because I felt that I had dealt with it all so many times before, and Stefan Drissen appeared to refute your argument for me. But ok, if you want it again. Here it is. The ROM (V3) is bugged. MasterDOS contains some convoluted fixes for bugs in the ROM, but also introduces some new ones. MasterBasic fixes most of the remaining ROM bugs, and most of the MasterDOS bugs. However, in so doing it has broken the rules that allow for SAM Basic to be extended. Result, HDOS does not work as Nev would like to see it work, as I would like to see it work, and as other contributors to this list would like to see it work (did you not see Stefan's posting on the same day as your's?) > > So far you have not, repeat NOT explained WHY your ideas are correct. Because, having considered all aspects, and having applied my not inconsiderable programming, hardware and business expertise to the problem, those are the plans that I have made. > You've told us about your background, about your friends, and told us how > obviously correct you are. But you're vague, Bob. Never once have such > arguments been directly related to the matter in hand. Never once have you > actually justified youself in any way shape or form. Never once have you > actually shown that you have considered the details for yourself which, you > say, are too complicated for use mere mortals to understand. Never once > have you inspired my confidence in your leadership. I have not said they are too complicated for mortals to understand. What I have said is that what is obviously missing from some people is a knowledge and understanding of business and management. It is not my place to teach such subjects (unless I get paid for it). > > Respect has to be earned. I may not have yours - and you don't have mine. That is obvious, its a pity, because with the right management I'm sure you could be a major contributor to the SAMSON project. > You can run a business, and that's fine by me. I am happy to accept that > you have more experience of running a business than any other people on > this list. But frankly it's less useful to this discussion than experience > of Sam programming, It is not, it is THE single most important thing that I bring to the project. >and despite asking I haven't seen any evidence of you > writing Sam machine code. I have wide enough experience of assemble and other languages to allow me to hold my own in most discussions. I also believe that I have one of those warped minds that often allows me to see what others do not. >Until you have shown some of the technical > eptitude you keep boasting about, your unsubstantiated comments will not > hold water. With you, maybe. Those that know me well know my abilities, I don't need to justify them. > > ... > > >one to start with. Some will not agree, that is their right - what is not > >their right is to set out to hold things back as some have tried to do over > >the last year. In the time since the idea of the project was first raised > we > >could have had our new ROM and DOS and HDOS - if only people had co- > operated. > > Right, please be specific. > > What exactly have I (or anybody else, although it's perfectly plain who > you're talking about) done to delay the production of the SRAM board? Argued, insulted (my intelligence at least), argued, gerrymandered, argued, picked holes in, argued...... > > I've said that I think another design would be more helpful, but since > you've so obviously ignored my comments then I don't see how I've delayed > your project. I responded to your comments re the SRAM, several times. In simple terms: you can't add a turbo-charger until you have the engine tuned. How can you design an SRAM card to work with a second processor that does not even exist yet? > > >We could now be working towards other nice things, if only people had co- > >operated. > > Co-operated *with you*, you mean. Of course, if you had cooperated with > Simon then we'd have the accelerator-based Samson motherboard by now and > lots of faster Sam software. That would be a very productive step in > itself, but we'd probably also have a few Z380-native applications too, and > probably be well on the way to a rewritten and improved operating system. The accelerator was/is (by Simon's own admissions last year) not a commercial product - it could be one day, although given that it would just allow you to speed up the machine I doubt it. What is needed is a second processor, one that can use SAM as well as SAM use it. One that also has its own peripherals and memory extending away from its own bus. That, Andrew, is a long way away. > > But that's all talk. Of course, the real reason nothing's happened is that > anybody who might have been interested in working on the project has been > put off by the fact that you waltzed onto this list, told people that > they're wrong because you *know* they're wrong, and that they wouldn't > understand the reasons why they're wrong even if you could be bothered to > tell them. Deny it? I deny it. I didn't waltz onto this list, whatever you mean by that? When I first started posting to this list (and remember I have been reading for a long time) I was quite happy to do my best to explain things. But then you, in particular, decided that is I did not answer your emails in EXACTLY the way you wanted them answered, no matter how long and convoluted your emails were, you would just start hurling more and more and more. Well Andrew, I don't own you a detailed explanation to everything. You have shown that you are unwilling to accept on face value anything I say. You have shown that you will go out of your way to argue. You have shown that you seem to enjoy wasting my time. Sorry, but unless I (feel) I have the time to reply, you mailings go to the bottom of the list and very often drop off. -- Bob.