From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 04:35:51 1998 Message-Id: <199806040333.EAA29636@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:33:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SimCoupe In-reply-to: <199806031928.UAA31387@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1040 Lines: 27 > a) Anyone else get gcc locking when it tries to compile processr.c? I > can still close the window, but gcc just sits there indefinitely. > (Cyrix 200+/32RAM) yeh, but everyone seemed to ignore my pleas for help :( k6-233 for what it's worth. i eventually had some success by deinstalling ALL of djgpp, then getting the latest version and installing it all again (some problem with the directory structure for gcc changing in the latest version, ie, djgpp202 and gcc2.18 (i think that's the right version number - from memory) ) after getting it to compile, the resulting executable would not run (ie, gave me a gpf straight away after running. not bothered trying to track it down though) > b) Allan .. would you please consider distributing the next snapshot > as a Rar file? :) I've just saved 150Kb-odd by rearchiving it! .. or at least distribute working makefiles / sourcefiles / etc. ;) ... or, even, explain what i'm doing wrong. i'm following your 'building' instructions to the very letter. > Ta, seconded. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 04:39:27 1998 Message-Id: <199806040336.EAA29772@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:36:06 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: The SAM In-reply-to: <000101bd8f3a$ccb2ffc0$4826accf@default> References: <19980603213852Z49474-29866+710@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 480 Lines: 15 > Coming soon on my SAM website: Print your own Not Just Stupid Demo Coders > T-shirt. speaking of tshirts... there's always http://yi.com/home/HooperDave/tshirts.html although, since putting that up over a year ago (and receiving, like, forty visitors, ever) i've got a few more designs ready to roll out dave oh - and excuse the bad quality pictures. better ones will follow shortly. (just as soon as i've converted all my source bitmaps into something like cdr format) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 08:37:29 1998 Message-ID: <010701bd8f8a$acecc9a0$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.orctel.internal> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: The SAM Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 08:30:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 128 Lines: 9 > speaking of tshirts... there's always > http://yi.com/home/HooperDave/tshirts.html Nice tshirts, Dave... DMZ --- probably. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 08:53:00 1998 Message-ID: <014501bd8f8d$032d40e0$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.orctel.internal> From: Dave To: sam-users Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 08:46:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1370 Lines: 46 > This constant need for proof. Another very childish trait you seem to have. > Life is not black and white, nor is it full of proofs. When you go out into > the real world you are going to find this. Sometimes you just have to accept > things until you can prove otherwise. Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong (now there's an invitation that wasn't required), but this sounds... well, absolute crap to tell you the truth. Yes, life isn't black and white, and indeed to prove something can be difficult or even impossible. Really it's the "sometimes you just have to accept things until you can prove otherwise" bit that is particularly irksome. Now, I _live_ in the real world. I have done for quite a while now, and I'd ask you to _prove_ that your reality is more real than mine. You won't be able to prove you've experienced more than I have. This is a certainty. The point is that 'accepting something' usually implies there is a general consensus behind a certain believe that cannot be proven or disproven. 99% of the people on this list disagree with Bob. Now, with no 'proofs' one way or the other, don't you think it's about time certain people started 'accepting' things? Or perhaps we have a minor religion? The cult of Bob, perhaps? Hmmm... fat, balding guy who enigmatically knows the truth of all things... think it's already been done. DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 10:19:56 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <80256619.00330E11.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:19:24 +0100 Subject: RE: Unofficial SAM tech man. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 328 Lines: 15 >Mind you, the new version will have some of that stuff taken out and >replaced with other bits and bobs... Like what? >Like possible ways of replacing SAM BASIC style strings with immutable >objects (though that might just appear on the BOAI website). Immutable objects? That's a term I haven't heard before... Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 10:48:56 1998 X-Authentication-Warning: pc203.cambridge.arm.com: askillma owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:49:31 +0100 (BST) From: Allan Skillman To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SimCoupe In-Reply-To: <199806031928.UAA31387@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1814 Lines: 40 Hi All, Sorry about the lack of response lately. One of the guys in the EDA group here announced a couple of weeks back that he was leaving ARM. Consequently the rest of us have had to take on quite a bit of extra work in order to stop the brown stuff hitting the air conditioning. As a result, plus the ever growing grass in the garden has reduced my spare time to a minimal lately. Hopefully normal service will be resumed in the not to distant future. > a) Anyone else get gcc locking when it tries to compile processr.c? I > can still close the window, but gcc just sits there indefinitely. > (Cyrix 200+/32RAM) processr.c is the bulk of the main emulator loop, and includes quite a few inline functions for the memory accesses. It really does take a long time to compile, although it shouldn't lock up the compiler. I have only tried it on Intel chips (486SX-33, Pentium 166MMX) under DOS-DJPP, but it also compiles fine for UNIX/gcc 2.7.2 on Intel, PARisc, Sparc and Alpha) > b) Allan .. would you please consider distributing the next snapshot > as a Rar file? :) I've just saved 150Kb-odd by rearchiving it! > Rar? Whats that? I used Zip because it seems to be the most widespread format for DOS, ie so I don't get loads of mails saying "Whats tar etc" Well its back to ARM instruction set simulator coding..... regards Allan +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ | Allan Skillman | "There are five flavours of resons, the | | EDA Group | elementary particles of magic : up, down, | | ARM | sideways, sex-appeal and peppermint." | | askillma@arm.com | - Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies) | +------------------------------+-------------------------------------------+ From imc Thu Jun 4 11:12:33 1998 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:12:33 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <199806040329.EAA29450@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> from "Dave Hooper" at Jun 4, 98 04:29:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 797 Lines: 21 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:29:25 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > for (int i=fgets(stdin, input_name,20); 20-i; i++) input_name[i]=' '; > not sure about the order of the arguments to fgets, but they are > Input stream, Buffer pointer, Number of characters to read > something along those lines, anyway. can't remember if the value > fgets returns also includes the '\0' character or not... whatever. Well you are a lot of use then... The declaration of fgets, FWIW, is char *fgets(char *s, int n, FILE *stream); so you didn't even get the return type right (though I suppose it's possible that some older implementations returned an integer). It always terminates the result with a nul character, and it also includes the newline character if there was one. Back to the drawing board... imc From imc Thu Jun 4 11:13:34 1998 Subject: Re: INDUG and the Internet. To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:13:34 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <000501bd8f2f$5fef6000$4826accf@default> from "Simon Cooke" at Jun 3, 98 04:37:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 155 Lines: 6 On Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:37:07 -0400, Simon Cooke said: > I'm going to write it in word Now why would you want to go and do a thing like that?... :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 13:55:15 1998 Message-Id: <199806041248.NAA07868@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:48:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: The SAM In-reply-to: <000001bd8f4b$3e657e80$4826accf@default> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 389 Lines: 12 > > NB: I like the Statues of Ice page... > It even works on SIMCoupe! The Statues of Ice page says "Puddles of Water" .. at least, it did when I checked it yesterday. Do Puddles work with SimCoupe? :) Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 13:55:15 1998 Message-Id: <199806041248.NAA07863@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:48:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 349 Lines: 10 > while (int i=strlen(s); isspace(s[i]); i++) Yesyes, okay, so I got the while and for constructs confused. Hmph. If people would write in a sensible language... Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From imc Thu Jun 4 14:06:07 1998 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:06:07 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <199806041248.NAA07863@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from "Paul Walker" at Jun 4, 98 01:48:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 165 Lines: 6 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:48:14 +0100, Paul Walker said: > Yesyes, okay, so I got the while and for constructs confused. Hmph. And I didn't even mention that... imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 15:46:20 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:37:31 GMT+0 Subject: Re: How dare you repost a private email. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <4FB0C00D90@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 873 Lines: 30 > Then I will treat you like the total plonker that you are > > ** PLONK ** > > Now rot in the killfile for a few months until you learn a little > respect for other people. > Like I'm sure he's going to give a shit. Bob, do you have any friends? Or do you just tell the people that can't stqand you that they are wrong and that you're nice really? ;) Seriously though, surely even you can see that you've been coming across as a complete arse in the last few days. And as for BillRitman, it's amazing how he makes the same spelling mistakes as you do when he decides to launch a personal attack on people. Bill, if you're going to call people names, do it to their faces and not in private email to me - thank you. > -- > Bob. Peace, Love, Kisses... JohnnaPig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "Living in a new world, thinking in the past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 16:02:47 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Formidable Ale and Scousers. References: X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:51:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: 's message of "Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:58:05 EDT" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 417 Lines: 13 writes: > Regarding scousers, I hope nobody starts a pro and anti discussion on SAM- > users. We've enough arguments running as it is. Anyway, I'm sure some must own > SAMs, so they can't be all bad (although I enjoy watching the Scousers as done > by Harry Enfield....) Me, Me, sort-of-scouse and SAM owning, and I don't think I'm bad .... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North http://yawn.nocrew.org/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 16:02:47 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:50:28 GMT+0 Subject: a bit about sam-users X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <4FDA51277A@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2053 Lines: 41 I have jusdt spent over an hour and a half sifting through about 250 messages from this list and it is doing my head in. Fair enough, I don't have to read, but I want to because in between all te fighitng there is often some sense spoken. One thing, however, is painstakingly clear. There are certain people on this list who are continually bringing it into disrepute with their name-calling and childish refsual to accept popular opinion. Was the sam world always like this? Was sam-users always like this? In my opinion, which I'm sure I'll be called for, it was not. It all started when Bob and his aliases joined the list. Now Bob is actually someone who is quite important to the future of hte SAM, like it or not. And therefore, he is handy to have around on the list to put points to and ask questions of. But sadly he has continually shownt that he cannot accept defeat in a debate, regardless of whetether there are clear facts to the contrary or not. Bob, these people on this list are your CUSTOMERS. Do you really treat your customers with continual disrespect? Will you ever pay Gavin his money back for the SAM Clock which you have owed him for months on end now? Will you ever realise that your petty arguments - one of which with David Ledbury has gone on for YEARS - are destroying this very list, and further afield, the SAM community? Frode, you are in charge of this list and you;'ve already said you don't like banning people or even suspending them. Fair enough, I don;t like censorship either. But if something isn't done about all this fighting which continues ALL THE TIME then there will be no sam-users left, and then no SAM users left soon after that. It is an important point that we should all consider. A large majority of peope on this list would sooner see the back of Bill and Bob with his flowerpot knob. my thoughts, and no - they;re not public domain...;-) Peace, Love, Kisses... JohnnaPig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "Living in a new world, thinking in the past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 16:20:51 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:09:31 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Manic Miner X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <5033001544@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 641 Lines: 19 > A bit more on topic :) > > How far can any one on the channel get in each of the 3 caverns of > this SAM Classic :) Finsihed it - me and my borther were playing it solidly when it first came out. Far superior to the spectrum version, although there should have been more levels (and some ofthe graphics were dodgy) > > David > > BTW: Advert time! Manic Miner - available from Persona for a very > fair price! See www.persona.clara.net for details, or email > persona@clara.net for a full price list :) Peace, Love, Kisses... JohnnaPig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "Living in a new world, thinking in the past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 16:20:53 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:12:11 GMT+0 Subject: manic miner X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <5033045BA0@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 285 Lines: 8 if somebody getts a reworked version of manic miner out then i'll buy it. and that'd be the first bit of sam software i'd been interested in in years... Peace, Love, Kisses... JohnnaPig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "Living in a new world, thinking in the past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 16:20:53 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:13:38 GMT+0 Subject: a questio X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <503AC30D54@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 201 Lines: 10 Bill, are you shagging bob or what then? you two seem awful close... Peace, Love, Kisses... JohnnaPig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "Living in a new world, thinking in the past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 16:20:53 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:14:36 GMT+0 Subject: Re: Formidable Ale and Scousers. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <503AC3006F@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 411 Lines: 12 > I've never tried Cain's Formidable Ale in can form, but it's good on > traditional draught, as is Cain's Best Bitter. It sometimes appears > in free houses in Brum, and usually in good nick. the best bitter in the world is Okells - the Isle of Man's finest... > > Phil Glover. Peace, Love, Kisses... JohnnaPig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "Living in a new world, thinking in the past..." From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 16:31:10 1998 From: The Mad Goose Organization: University of Central Lancashire To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:26:55 GMT+0 Subject: Bye bye X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <5070441143@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 466 Lines: 26 right, i've had enough it's time to return to the sunny IoM and get a job back in september hope everythings fine and dandy then and if anybody knows where I can get a copy of exodus from then snail me on: johnna teare the mount may hill ramsey isle of man im8 2hg hope something has happened by the time i return love you all Peace, Love, Kisses... JohnnaPig Teare JPOL: http://www.yi.com/home/TeareJohnna "Living in a new world, thinking in the past..." From imc Thu Jun 4 17:55:43 1998 Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199805302253.AAA16181@mailserv.caiw.nl> from Robert van der Veeke at "May 31, 98 00:56:07 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:55:43 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 826 Lines: 16 On Sun, 31 May 1998 00:56:07 +0200, Robert van der Veeke said: > --Snipped from the C.S.S.-- > This is a reply to Mark Sturdy's message 22/05/98. Sorry I cannot > quote the original but I've just had a system crash which has trashed > all the download messages for the last two weeks. You know, I have to wonder about the number of times I have heard different people say "My system crashed and I lost X number of mail messages". I've had a small number of crashes myself but never lost any files in them. I've only ever lost one file that wasn't due to a silly mistake on my part (why the file - an archive of read messages - disappeared is still a mystery) and it was promptly restored from backup by a helpful colleague. What is it about (presumably) Windows that causes it to go deleting random files like that? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 18:34:46 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:25:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bye bye In-reply-to: <5070441143@mail-gw.uclan.ac.uk> Message-Id: <19980604173205Z49338-9261+160@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 414 Lines: 16 > From: The Mad Goose > right, i've had enough > > it's time to return to the sunny IoM and get a job > > back in september > > hope everythings fine and dandy then > > and if anybody knows where I can get a copy of exodus from then snail Persona of course! It was copyright Phoenix and is now available on the Persona lable... (I'm sure you've seen the web page John!) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 18:56:37 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: The SAM Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:43:27 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bd8fe0$47ba9b60$462eaccf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <199806041248.NAA07868@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 302 Lines: 12 > > > NB: I like the Statues of Ice page... > > It even works on SIMCoupe! > > The Statues of Ice page says "Puddles of Water" .. at least, it did > when I checked it yesterday. Do Puddles work with SimCoupe? :) Oh yes -- just take the HTML file, and print it to the screen -- works fine! ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 18:56:38 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:46:18 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd8fe0$adf060e0$462eaccf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <199806041655.RAA22135@ruby.comlab> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1234 Lines: 25 > On Sun, 31 May 1998 00:56:07 +0200, Robert van der Veeke said: > > --Snipped from the C.S.S.-- > > This is a reply to Mark Sturdy's message 22/05/98. Sorry I cannot > > quote the original but I've just had a system crash which has trashed > > all the download messages for the last two weeks. > > You know, I have to wonder about the number of times I have heard > different > people say "My system crashed and I lost X number of mail messages". I've > had a small number of crashes myself but never lost any files in > them. I've > only ever lost one file that wasn't due to a silly mistake on my part (why > the file - an archive of read messages - disappeared is still a mystery) > and it was promptly restored from backup by a helpful colleague. What is > it about (presumably) Windows that causes it to go deleting random files > like that? I don't know if it's Windows per se, or just the mailer software has been badly written, and so it destroys the mail spool and contents file it downloads (and deletes messages as it downloads them, but doesn't save the spool between each message, so you completely screw your entire mail spool). Oh, and maybe only operates on one spool, instead of making a temporary copy. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 21:17:06 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <5f327326.3576ff37@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:29 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1099 Lines: 26 In a message dated 02/06/98 23:36:58, you write: > > > > All these names are of different lengths, but are situated in a > > > column length of 20 characters. Now my program asks you to type in a > > > name from the list, and proceeds to check it against the list that > > > has been read in previously. It seems to take each name as 20 chars > > > long, complete with trailing spaces, and so doesn't register a match > > > with any name I put in (with no spaces after it). > > Well what you want to do, you see, is you call your TRUNC$ function > > don't you, and then it chops all the spaces off the end. > > Well, you know, I thought about that, remembered that I was working > in C++ and said 'Oh I wish they had SAMBASIC on this system'. > > MJC. Must admit I've never done any C++ but use some logic like this. Input string (of unknown length > 1 character) - Sam basic = INPUT A$ Concatenate with a string of 20 space characters - LET A$=A$+"[20 spaces]" Compare first 20 characters of new string - IF A$( TO 20)= Now how you get that into C++ is up to you. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 21:17:06 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <550fa3a9.3576ff3d@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:36 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2735 Lines: 68 In a message dated 04/06/98 07:50:37, you write: > > > This constant need for proof. Another very childish trait you seem to > have. > > Life is not black and white, nor is it full of proofs. When you go out > into > > the real world you are going to find this. Sometimes you just have to > accept > > things until you can prove otherwise. > > Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong (now there's an invitation that wasn't > required), > but this sounds... well, absolute crap to tell you the truth. > > Yes, life isn't black and white, and indeed to prove something can be > difficult > or even impossible. Really it's the "sometimes you just have to accept > things > until you can prove otherwise" bit that is particularly irksome. > > Now, I _live_ in the real world. I have done for quite a while now, and I'd > ask > you to _prove_ that your reality is more real than mine. You won't be able > to > prove you've experienced more than I have. This is a certainty. > > The point is that 'accepting something' usually implies there is a general > consensus behind a certain believe that cannot be proven or disproven. Not necessarily so. I don't understand high finance, I let the people that run my pension fund do that - until they do something wrong (and I find out) I have toeither accept that they know what they are doing or withdraw my money (if I could) and try doing the job myself. Nobody could /prove/ to me that they are the ideal person to handle my money, I just have to take a lot of face value. It is the same, in my opinion, with some of the arguments held here with Bob. Given the balance, I tend to side with Bob because, as far as I can see, he has in the past made the right decisions. As to proof of my identity. Show me something like a court order and I will obey it. You know, I think if I had been welcomed onto this list as may others since have been, I would have felt differently. I may well have started to talk to people more through private emails and possibly even over the phone. But some twat thought "Bill is agreeing with Bob, that is impossible. Unless Bill is Bob." And the downhill slide started. Now I have no intention of trying to _prove_ my existance, I don't need to - I know I exist. > > 99% of the people on this list disagree with Bob. Now, with no 'proofs' one > way > or the other, don't you think it's about time certain people started > 'accepting' > things? I think your 99% is way off the mark. Try doing your sums again. > > Or perhaps we have a minor religion? The cult of Bob, perhaps? > > Hmmm... fat, balding guy who enigmatically knows the truth of all things... > think it's already been done. ???? > > DMZ > --- > Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 21:17:07 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <630f4429.3576ff3a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:33 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The SAM Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 3598 Lines: 87 In a message dated 03/06/98 21:09:04, you write: > > Do you know what publicity those demos created? Those "stupid" demos > actually gave the SAM world something to live for, even at the start. Take > SCPDU, for example. Take the Star Trek and Megablast demos which (at one > point, I believe) sold more copies of FRED disk magazine than anything else, > and were also featured in Crash! Magazine. Something to live for? Balls. Just think of how many games and utilities could have been written with half the effort that was wasted on demos. > > Do you know how many games people have tried writing and given up on because > they found out that there was no way to get them running at the speed > required to make them playable? And do you know how many games only got > working because people used "stupid demo coder" techniques to get them to > work? Now you are getting confused. Developing techniques has little to do with writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial software companies sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. > > This stupid demo coder right here was involved in Prince of Persia, > Lemmings, Exodus and Parallax. All good selling games. Lemmings and Exodus > only have music while you're playing because of "stupid demo coder" work. No, if there was a need for music then a way would have been found to do it. Possibly the same way that was used. Just becasue a routine was developed for use in a stupid demo does not mean that the same people would not have developed the same routine if instead of writing demos they has been writing worthwhile software. > > So basically... be careful when you ask "how much money for the SAM world > have you generated?" > > Also, that's not important anyway. Demo coding lets you learn the specifics > of the machine, learn ways to try and get around its limitations, and then > gets you incredibly disheartened when you realise that the machine is > seriously underpowered. But surely you would get the same out of trying to develop viable games and utilities. A point I think Bob has made several times in the past. >They provide entertainment for people (that people > will pay money for! - see FRED), and provide entertainment for yourself. > They show off the machine, encourage other people to start coding, and draw > in new blood. As would the same effort expended on real software. > > [snip] > > This constant need for proof. Another very childish trait you > > seem to have. > > Life is not black and white, nor is it full of proofs. When you > > go out into > > the real world you are going to find this. Sometimes you just > > have to accept > > things until you can prove otherwise. And if you would like to prove on of > > Bob's major tenets wrong, by say proving that there is no need to redo the > > ROM/DOS to allow HDOS to extend Masterdos as it should, then I'm > > sure he will > > pay attention. > > Redoing the ROM will screw up existing programs. No-one knows how many > programs will break. > > MasterDOS is designed so as to allow extension. It works. Not according to Bob and Nev. It does not allow extension in the way it should. Are you saying they are wrong in making that statement? >There are bugs in > SAM Basic sure (the main one being the page overflow bug which can screw up > large programs). They could be fixed. But extensive rewrites? > > The MasterDOS source is up on NVG. Feel free to look at it, and then tell me > what you think the way forwards is. > > Simon > Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 21:17:07 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <9a922029.3576ff42@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:41 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: How dare you repost a private email. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1120 Lines: 36 In a message dated 04/06/98 14:44:18, you write: > > > Then I will treat you like the total plonker that you are > > > > ** PLONK ** > > > > Now rot in the killfile for a few months until you learn a little > > respect for other people. > > > > Like I'm sure he's going to give a shit. > > Bob, do you have any friends? Or do you just tell the people that > can't stqand you that they are wrong and that you're nice really? ;) > > Seriously though, surely even you can see that you've been coming > across as a complete arse in the last few days. > > And as for BillRitman, it's amazing how he makes the same spelling > mistakes as you do when he decides to launch a personal attack on > people. I can't help it is my spilling is not as good as your spolling, or that this keyboard does not always keep up with me. I notice that others make spelling mistokes as well. Could they be Bob too? > > Bill, if you're going to call people names, do it to their faces and > not in private email to me - thank you. > > -- > > Bob. > > Peace, Love, Kisses... > JohnnaPig Teare Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 21:31:43 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: Ultra-slim drives available again? Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:19:11 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd8ff6$096ff1a0$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 182 Lines: 7 Citizen appear to be selling drives again... you know, the ones we know and love for the SAM (apart from these may be a little smaller again) Go to: http://www.citizen.co.uk Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 21:49:48 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:37:14 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: In-reply-to: <550fa3a9.3576ff3d@aol.com> Message-Id: <19980604204404Z49443-9261+210@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 277 Lines: 9 > From: > > > > Hmmm... fat, balding guy who enigmatically knows the truth of all things... > > think it's already been done. > > ???? Ever hear of a minor cult called Buddism? (And I can't spell either... but i'm quite sure I'm not Bob!) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 21:49:49 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: The SAM Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:41:46 -0400 Message-ID: <000401bd8ff9$311db0e0$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <630f4429.3576ff3a@aol.com> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 7315 Lines: 168 > > Do you know what publicity those demos created? Those "stupid" demos > > actually gave the SAM world something to live for, even at the > start. Take > > SCPDU, for example. Take the Star Trek and Megablast demos > which (at one > > point, I believe) sold more copies of FRED disk magazine than anything > else, > > and were also featured in Crash! Magazine. > > Something to live for? Balls. Just think of how many games and > utilities could > have been written with half the effort that was wasted on demos. Sure, many a puzzle game could well have been written with half the effort that was wasted on demos. Why do you think that Puzzle games make up 99% of all software on the SAM? Also, you conveniently have ignored my rebuttal. Do you agree that the demos I have mentioned above managed to sell vast quantities of FRED disk magazine, and therefore made a lot of money for the SAM? By the way, don't talk to me about writing utilities -- do you know how many I've written? Do you read FRED magazine? If so, you've seen at least one of them, every time you read the editorial. > > > > Do you know how many games people have tried writing and given up on > because > > they found out that there was no way to get them running at the speed > > required to make them playable? And do you know how many games only got > > working because people used "stupid demo coder" techniques to > get them to > > work? > > Now you are getting confused. Developing techniques has little to do with > writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial > software companies > sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. Nope, but they often don't learn the optimisation tricks that Demo Coders do. I've got a friend who wants to write games. He doesn't know how to separate what you can do from what you can't. Hence, he coded up a flame routine for a game he was writing, that he was planning to use *everywhere*. With about 64,000 particles moving around. Fine if you've got a Pentium II 300MHz machine. Even then, I wouldn't want to use 20 of them on a screen. Is it just me, or are you bitter that people wrote what they wanted to on their computer, in their time, for no money, rather than what *you* wanted them to write? BTW: This particular Stupid Demo Coder coded parts of Exodus, Lemmings, Prince of Persia, Populous and Parallax on the SAM. As well as a SAM to BMP file converter, various disk utilities, DOS extensions, other file converters, compressors that were used by other coders in their games/demos, disk copy and disk protection utilities which have been used for a number of SAM releases, text compression and display routines, tutorials, scrollers, articles, fonts and font display programs, graphical editors, menus, and more. Other stupid demo coders, such as Andrew Collier, have coded other games (including the excellent MineSweeper). Still more, such as Stefan Drissen, have coded Sophistry, worked on a conversion of Pang, IIRC, and wrote the Mod Player. Edwin Blink, who started out as a stupid demo coder (his stupid demo was played live on the SAM information line), wrote COMET Assembler. Neil Holmes and Stuart Leonardi wrote stupid demos. They also coded up Parallax and Exodus. David Gommeren wrote stupid demos. He also coded Batz n Balls, and the SAM version of TETRIS that everyone must surely have a copy of somewhere. ESI wrote stupid demos. They also programmed The Bulgulators, E-Tracker, Craft and SnakeMania. Paul Crompton wrote stupid demos. He also programmed GI-Mon. > > This stupid demo coder right here was involved in Prince of Persia, > > Lemmings, Exodus and Parallax. All good selling games. > Lemmings and Exodus > > only have music while you're playing because of "stupid demo > coder" work. > > No, if there was a need for music then a way would have been > found to do it. Hmmm... but don't you find it telling that it was my routine that was used? > Possibly the same way that was used. Just becasue a routine was > developed for > use in a stupid demo does not mean that the same people would not have > developed the same routine if instead of writing demos they has > been writing > worthwhile software. Maybe. Maybe not. But you don't know. And also, that routine is worthwhile software, as it was used in Lemmings and Exodus. Routines don't just delete themselves from your hard drive when you've finished writing them you know. The code gets re-used. Eg. my fader routine, which I wrote for demos, and was used in every game Chris White wrote from POP onwards. (With modifications to switch the way it checked for the frame flyback). > > So basically... be careful when you ask "how much money for > the SAM world > > have you generated?" > > > > Also, that's not important anyway. Demo coding lets you learn > the specifics > > of the machine, learn ways to try and get around its > limitations, and then > > gets you incredibly disheartened when you realise that the machine is > > seriously underpowered. > > But surely you would get the same out of trying to develop viable > games and > utilities. A point I think Bob has made several times in the past. Not as quickly and easily. Also, you'd probably find out that the machine was hopelessly underpowered far quicker when writing demos than when writing a game. And then, when you're 4 months into writing that game, with hundreds of thousands of lines of assembler written, and you find that it's pointless continuing, what do you have? Nothing. > >They provide entertainment for people (that people > > will pay money for! - see FRED), and provide entertainment for > yourself. > > They show off the machine, encourage other people to start > coding, and draw > > in new blood. > > As would the same effort expended on real software. 1. Routines don't die. A good coder can just save them out and use them again on other things. 2. Depends on what you define as real software. Remember: the people who coded demos were only a very few and far between subset of the SAM userbase. Why aren't you having a go at the people who didn't write *anything* for their SAM or make it available for others? > > [snip] > > > This constant need for proof. Another very childish trait you > > > seem to have. > > > Life is not black and white, nor is it full of proofs. When you > > > go out into > > > the real world you are going to find this. Sometimes you just > > > have to accept > > > things until you can prove otherwise. And if you would like > to prove on > of > > > Bob's major tenets wrong, by say proving that there is no > need to redo > the > > > ROM/DOS to allow HDOS to extend Masterdos as it should, then I'm > > > sure he will > > > pay attention. > > > > Redoing the ROM will screw up existing programs. No-one knows how many > > programs will break. > > > > MasterDOS is designed so as to allow extension. It works. > > Not according to Bob and Nev. It does not allow extension in the way it > should. Are you saying they are wrong in making that statement? I'm saying that I can see how I would modify the ROM and DOS in the way I'd need to, to get it done. The problem is that no-one has documented the ROM, so people aren't 100% sure how it ties the DOS to it. Therein lies the problem. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 22:14:49 1998 Message-ID: <35770CF6.C51FF825@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:09:10 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: FRODE - READ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 923 Lines: 15 Can we please get rid of Bill Ritman and Bob Brenchley immediately. Like now. No, don't sit there and do nothing - do it now. We are all sick and tired of him, we are all sick of his abuse, sick of his childish fighting, and I'm sick of getting abusive emails, full of insults from him, such as "stupid, ignorant little cunt" and I'm also sick of hearing about other people getting abusive email from him, also full of insults about various people on this list, including me being called "that anal retentive > arsehole Gavin". YOU ARE MEANT TO BE THE LIST MANAGER - MANAGE THE BLOODY THING! We're here to talk about the SAM, if you won't let that happen, another list will appear pretty damn soon. Everyone else agree? -- * Gavin Smith - ICQ:5099913 Email:gavin.smith@purple.dircon.co.uk * * IRC Undernet's #TheLocal, #SAM-Users as SparkY or SparkYY * * http://www.shudehill.demon.co.uk/thelocal * From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 22:23:21 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:07:40 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Stupid demo coders! (Was Re: The SAM) In-reply-to: <630f4429.3576ff3a@aol.com> Message-Id: <19980604211428Z49486-9261+214@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 5673 Lines: 125 > From: > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:33 EDT > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Subject: Re: The SAM > Reply-to: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 98 21:38:56 BST Hmmm.... it's the same old argument that has been responsible for the loss of at least one good programmer to SAM. (Luke Treverror (Sorry! Not sure how to spell his name!) aka Black Adder - who's nickname Bob used as an excuse to launch an attack at this very breed... > In a message dated 03/06/98 21:09:04, you write: > > > > Do you know what publicity those demos created? Those "stupid" demos > > actually gave the SAM world something to live for, even at the start. Take > > SCPDU, for example. Take the Star Trek and Megablast demos which (at one > > point, I believe) sold more copies of FRED disk magazine than anything > else, > > and were also featured in Crash! Magazine. > > Something to live for? Balls. Just think of how many games and utilities could > have been written with half the effort that was wasted on demos. Obviously you missed my earlier posting which stressed that a lot of people became interested in SAM seeing the quality of these demos. So they were responsible for sales of computers in the first place. They were also responsible for the continued existence of Fred, and other, diskzines - which of course helped in time to launch Fred Publishing - and help the SAM keep going with information and news through many a rough time. They helped introduce some new talents to SAM - ESI is the best example perhaps... previously best known for demos. Developing demo code means optimisation is essential. Utility code can lead to sloppy, simple techniques as speed is not an issue. The use of Stack based scrolling was developed in demos... the burst player, improved Etracker/ ProTracker players .... and I'm sure many other examples can be sited. > > Do you know how many games people have tried writing and given up on > because > > they found out that there was no way to get them running at the speed > > required to make them playable? And do you know how many games only got > > working because people used "stupid demo coder" techniques to get them to > > work? > > Now you are getting confused. Developing techniques has little to do with > writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial software companies > sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. Demo coders develop techniques and programming practices the same way as anyone does programming. They get used to writing for speed, and effect - and sometimes more importantly they try to come up with ideas to make their work different. This can lead to radical ideas in the coding of their work. Whether they decide to later use their talents for games or utilities is up to them. As for the arguments of "commercial companies"? They dont have to worry about the speed or memory aspect... they just up the minimum spec for the software! Hence they use C based code instead of assembler... which involves a hell of a lot more work! > > This stupid demo coder right here was involved in Prince of Persia, > > Lemmings, Exodus and Parallax. All good selling games. Lemmings and Exodus > > only have music while you're playing because of "stupid demo coder" work. > > No, if there was a need for music then a way would have been found to do it. Not a need for music. Playing music is straight forward. He means to play it FAST and to keep the speed of the game up to the maximum. Have you ever played Exodus? (I doubt it, as I sold most of the copies of that ever sold ... before Mack took it on with the other Pheonix titles and I certainly haven't seen your name!) If you had, you would be impressed by the sheer speed. The programmers are of course "stupid demo coders" of course. > Possibly the same way that was used. Just becasue a routine was developed for > use in a stupid demo does not mean that the same people would not have > developed the same routine if instead of writing demos they has been writing > worthwhile software. There is the possiblity agreed - but the incentive isnt there without the challenge of trying to compete with what's already been done. > > So basically... be careful when you ask "how much money for the SAM world > > have you generated?" > > > > Also, that's not important anyway. Demo coding lets you learn the specifics > > of the machine, learn ways to try and get around its limitations, and then > > gets you incredibly disheartened when you realise that the machine is > > seriously underpowered. > > But surely you would get the same out of trying to develop viable games and > utilities. A point I think Bob has made several times in the past. Developing a utility or a game takes time and can be very off-putting. I've seen many good games started on SAM - F16, Bubble Bobble, etc - which have been given up due to the complex nature of the project. And quite frankly, despite the challenges it offers, coding a demo takes a hell of a lot less time. I think the point that Bob has missed out is that people need encouragement. Programming is not a task to be undertook lightly. And that is the whole point. ENCOURAGE TALENT... DONT SCARE IT OFF! > >They provide entertainment for people (that people > > will pay money for! - see FRED), and provide entertainment for yourself. > > They show off the machine, encourage other people to start coding, and draw > > in new blood. > > As would the same effort expended on real software. See above. [snip] David From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 22:23:23 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: FRODE - READ Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:13:30 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bd8ffd$9fe31840$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <35770CF6.C51FF825@purple.dircon.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 819 Lines: 22 > Can we please get rid of Bill Ritman and Bob Brenchley > immediately. Like now. > No, don't sit there and do nothing - do it now. We are all sick > and tired of > him, we are all sick of his abuse, sick of his childish fighting, > and I'm sick > of getting abusive emails, full of insults from him, such as > "stupid, ignorant > little cunt" and I'm also sick of hearing about other people > getting abusive > email from him, also full of insults about various people on this list, > including me being called "that anal retentive > arsehole Gavin". > YOU ARE MEANT > TO BE THE LIST MANAGER - MANAGE THE BLOODY THING! We're here to > talk about the > SAM, if you won't let that happen, another list will appear > pretty damn soon. Frode isn't back until the 15th of June -- he's on hols for 2 weeks. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 22:59:12 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980604163609.0078afbc@pop.enterprise.net> X-Sender: markus@pop.enterprise.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:36:09 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Mark Hillman Subject: Re: The SAM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 2819 Lines: 68 At 18:26 29/05/98 EDT, you wrote: >>No. You didn't read what I wrote, did you? You can copyright the >>artistic design but it is impossible to copyright the technical design. er whilst not being an expert on some of the most stupidly complicated law that england has ever produced... you automatically own copyright on anything that you originate. wether you've registered it or not. It's impossible to prove tho that you have originated something tho unless you register it which makes this kind of moot. then there is trademarking a seperate entity entirely for artistic designs logos names and the like. and also patenting. You can get the patents to a design or a process. It takes a year to process the application (patent pending) and the patent which must be paid for and renewed every year if you want to keep hold of it (something that costs a *lot* of money) which can last for up to a further 20 years. Aero's were patented - i.e. the process that caused chocolate to bubble. Once that ran out Wispas emerged onto the market. Pritt Sticks were pateneted i.e. the process of making glue into a stick. (A patent they made 24 million UKP from approximately till it ran out and now they have competition.) Copyrights and trademarks IIRC last until 50 years after the authors/originators death... >Sorry Ian, but that is untrue. To have FULL protection on a design you need a >patent, but a certain degree of protection is afforded by copyrighting the >design. Someone can take your design and re-design it to be different while >still doing the same job, but the closeness or otherwise to the original could >lead to an infringement of copyright. The BBC do things similar to this IIRC. i.e. they produce 'RadioPlay' versions of music via an agreement and thus only pay a fraction of the royalties cost to the people that made it in the 1st place. they change the bassline or reengineer each track so that it's subtly different, so they aren't breaking copyright laws. >To protect fully (and yes I have had reason to go down this route with a >friend in the last two years) you need to take out a patent, register your >design and copyright your design - in English law that is three different >steps. AFAIAA patenting is something of a waste of money unless you stand to make a lot out of your invention.... If you can be bothered you can patent an technical design, provided yo do it before anyone else, tho in most cases it just isn't worth it... It's interesting to note that the most prolific and profitable computer - the PC - didn't orignally get patented or copyrighted whereas Amigas SAMs Macs were, and made under exclusive licence.... Markus... ___^. .^ @/ (_@_) \ __ / || || lePIG .sig From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 22:59:13 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980604164103.0078e940@pop.enterprise.net> X-Sender: markus@pop.enterprise.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:41:03 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Mark Hillman Subject: Re: INDUG and the Internet. In-Reply-To: <86a3bf1e.356f362e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1248 Lines: 39 At 18:26 29/05/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 29/05/98 20:59:41, you write: > >>> And even if in the Public Domain there is still copyright - nobody can pass >>> off anothers work as if it was their own, the original author's name should >>> never be removed. >> >>Once something's in the public domain, you lose all rights to it. You >>don't even retain copyright. > > > >Oh No You Don't > > o yes you bl**dy well do. Something that is Public Domain can be copied used altered freely by any member of the public. If you give your idea to Public Domain and someone else uses it to make money you are not entitled to any of it. At all. Ever. Lots of software distributed by PD companies is NOT Public Domain. It's usually FreeWare or ShareWare - where the author has given the rights to distribute the software for a small fee (i.e. normally the price of a disk) but still has maintain the copyright to their work. Once you call something 'Public Domain' that's it. Kiss it goodbye. You aren't even entitled to an acknowledgement for writing it in the 1st place. Markus.... ___^. .^ @/ (_@_) \ __ / || || lePIG .sig From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 23:32:32 1998 From: Nev Young To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! but not as big an idiot as Robert!!! Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:19:08 GMT Organization: nfy53 Message-ID: <35771534.10410514@post.demon.co.uk> References: <19980603184717Z49383-29866+690@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> <3858383105C@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <3858383105C@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 463 Lines: 20 On Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:09:25 BST, "Matthew Craven" wrote: > > Oh bugger ! > > Now I need a cloth to clean the screen. > > > > :-) > > > > -- > > Nev - no longer at nevilley@ndirect.co.uk > > and getting no spam at all (yet) > > Is that message freeware Nev? > Of course it is. What do you think I am ? A clone or somethi thi thi thi thi thi thing. -- Nev - no longer at nevilley@ndirect.co.uk and getting no spam at all (yet) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 23:32:33 1998 Message-ID: <35771ED0.9B32F4A9@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:25:20 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: FRODE - READ References: <000001bd8ffd$9fe31840$0871accf@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 373 Lines: 12 Simon Cooke wrote: > Frode isn't back until the 15th of June -- he's on hols for 2 weeks. > > Simon Hehe, well I'll be sure to get on to him when he gets back then :) -- * Gavin Smith - ICQ:5099913 Email:gavin.smith@purple.dircon.co.uk * * IRC Undernet's #TheLocal, #SAM-Users as SparkY or SparkYY * * http://www.shudehill.demon.co.uk/thelocal * From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Thu Jun 4 23:58:01 1998 Message-Id: <199806042250.AAA12364@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: How dare you repost a private email. Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:52:49 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1461 Lines: 34 > Van: BillRitman@aol.com > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: How dare you repost a private email. > Datum: Thursday, June 04, 1998 10:10 > I can't help it is my spilling is not as good as your spolling, or that this > keyboard does not always keep up with me. I notice that others make spelling > mistokes as well. Could they be Bob too? You can call me Bob, but at least I can prove that I am not BOB. I am still waiting until you prove yourself of not being BOB. As for that apology that you want from me, well stick it up yours. I ain't gonna give something like that to someone who has shown himself as a complete git on this list. No Demo-coders, No Sam, its that simple. Take for example Martijn Groen, he was and is using demo's to iprove his programming skills, If it not was for demo's and the support from some Sam friends than he would have been long gone from the Sam-scene. And then you would have missed PAW, ZX81 emulator (although the basis was done by Stefan). And all those other usefull little programs he is writing. BTW there is a good chance of seeing MSX1-emulator comming to the SAM. Those demo-coders have made the Sam what it is today and they are still working on improving and perfecting it. Mr. Ritman if I had any respect left for you than you have thrown it away for good now. -- Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Mind you if we call you "Bruce", it might otherwise cause some confusion. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:01:25 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:58:02 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FRODE - READ In-reply-to: <35770CF6.C51FF825@purple.dircon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39E51EC027D@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 766 Lines: 14 > Can we please get rid of Bill Ritman and Bob Brenchley immediately. Like now. > No, don't sit there and do nothing - do it now. We are all sick and tired of > him, we are all sick of his abuse, sick of his childish fighting, and I'm sick > of getting abusive emails, full of insults from him, such as "stupid, ignorant > little cunt" and I'm also sick of hearing about other people getting abusive > email from him, also full of insults about various people on this list, > including me being called "that anal retentive > arsehole Gavin". YOU ARE MEANT > TO BE THE LIST MANAGER - MANAGE THE BLOODY THING! We're here to talk about the > SAM, if you won't let that happen, another list will appear pretty damn soon. > Everyone else agree? I agree with this. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:07:26 1998 Message-Id: <199806042302.AAA29963@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:02:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SimCoupe References: <199806031928.UAA31387@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1415 Lines: 33 > Sorry about the lack of response lately. One of the guys in the EDA No problem. > processr.c is the bulk of the main emulator loop, and includes quite a > few inline functions for the memory accesses. It really does take a long > time to compile, although it shouldn't lock up the compiler. I have only I refuse to believe it will take an hour on this processor. I've just left it running in the background for 60 minutes odd while I do other (non-intensive) stuff, and it was still no further. It appears to be caused by a particular set of includes, although just to be helpful I can't remember which ones at present. > tried it on Intel chips (486SX-33, Pentium 166MMX) under DOS-DJPP, but This is under DJGPP, gcc version 2.80, from www.delorie.com a couple of months ago. > Rar? Whats that? I used Zip because it seems to be the most widespread > format for DOS, ie so I don't get loads of mails saying "Whats tar etc" Rar is a "new" archiver (been around for a few years, but people don't seem to know about it); there should be a link to it from my website (http://surf.to/arafel), or you can do a search on download.com or whatever if you want. Very nice - "solid mode" gives it the edge on zip etc. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:07:26 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:02:29 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: How dare you repost a private email. In-reply-to: <199806042250.AAA12364@mailserv.caiw.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39E654518CF@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 469 Lines: 13 > > I can't help it is my spilling is not as good as your spolling, or that > this > > keyboard does not always keep up with me. I notice that others make > spelling > > mistokes as well. Could they be Bob too? Of course they could be. It could be that we are all clones of Bob. We are not saying that we can conclusively prove that you are Bob, Bill. They just seem to be a lot of funny little things that could be interpreted by some as being very similar. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:07:26 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:03:44 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! but not as big an idiot as Robert!!! In-reply-to: <35771534.10410514@post.demon.co.uk> References: <3858383105C@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39E6A3A0E82@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 361 Lines: 17 > > > Oh bugger ! > > > Now I need a cloth to clean the screen. > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > -- > > > Nev - no longer at nevilley@ndirect.co.uk > > > and getting no spam at all (yet) > > > > Is that message freeware Nev? > > > Of course it is. What do you think I am ? A clone or somethi thi thi > thi thi thi thing. No, I didn't mean to offend you. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:10:07 1998 Message-Id: <199806042307.AAA30744@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:07:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The SAM In-reply-to: <630f4429.3576ff3a@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 600 Lines: 14 > writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial software companies > sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. A more relevant question would be, did the people working for commercial s/w companies write demos before they got their jobs? And, given that we have at least two (probably three) such people on this list, the answer would appear to be "quite possibly". Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:15:11 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: How dare you repost a private email. Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:04:59 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bd900d$32ce5700$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <39E654518CF@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 608 Lines: 19 > > > I can't help it is my spilling is not as good as your > spolling, or that > > this > > > keyboard does not always keep up with me. I notice that others make > > spelling > > > mistokes as well. Could they be Bob too? > > Of course they could be. It could be that we are all clones of Bob. > > We are not saying that we can conclusively prove that you are Bob, > Bill. They just seem to be a lot of funny little things that could be > interpreted by some as being very similar. Including AOL software versions, and log-on times that are within 2 minutes of one another. Oops... did I say that? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:26:24 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: SimCoupe Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:10:07 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bd900d$ea2352c0$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <199806042302.AAA29963@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1500 Lines: 34 > > processr.c is the bulk of the main emulator loop, and includes quite a > > few inline functions for the memory accesses. It really does take a long > > time to compile, although it shouldn't lock up the compiler. I have only > > I refuse to believe it will take an hour on this processor. I've > just left it running in the background for 60 minutes odd while I do > other (non-intensive) stuff, and it was still no further. It appears > to be caused by a particular set of includes, although just to be > helpful I can't remember which ones at present. IIRC, you're using a Cyrix chip, right? In that case, you'll have problems with GCC under certain circumstances -- the compile will fall over on that chip. You may want to look around for another, more up-to-date copy of the compiler. > > tried it on Intel chips (486SX-33, Pentium 166MMX) under DOS-DJPP, but > > This is under DJGPP, gcc version 2.80, from www.delorie.com a couple > of months ago. > > > Rar? Whats that? I used Zip because it seems to be the most widespread > > format for DOS, ie so I don't get loads of mails saying "Whats tar etc" > > Rar is a "new" archiver (been around for a few years, but people > don't seem to know about it); there should be a link to it from my > website (http://surf.to/arafel), or you can do a search on > download.com or whatever if you want. Very nice - "solid mode" gives > it the edge on zip etc. The day that WinZip can support it properly, I'm switching to it like a shot. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:26:31 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! but not as big an idiot as Robert!!! Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:10:08 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd900d$eb1f17e0$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <39E6A3A0E82@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 457 Lines: 15 > > > Is that message freeware Nev? > > > > > Of course it is. What do you think I am ? A clone or somethi thi thi > > thi thi thi thing. > > No, I didn't mean to offend you. I think that Nev's trying to insinuate that someone has cloned him, shortly after a motorbike accident prior to which he found out about a conspiracy at the TV station where he worked which was showing adverts that caused peoples brains to explode. Just a guess, mind you. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:26:33 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: The SAM Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:13:26 -0400 Message-ID: <000301bd900e$60d11920$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <199806042307.AAA30744@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1796 Lines: 36 > > writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial > software companies > > sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? > I doubt it. > > A more relevant question would be, did the people working for > commercial s/w companies write demos before they got their jobs? > > And, given that we have at least two (probably three) such people on > this list, the answer would appear to be "quite possibly". Most infinitely. In fact, I was offered a job at a company in Chicago four or five years ago programming Sega MasterSystem games on the strength of my demos. IIRC, Wayne Coales has a job at Reflections on the strength of his demos (he also wrote a couple of simple games- Columns) I wish I could remember the other demo coders who now have incredibly good jobs because of it. I think Colin McD is keeping at least some kind of track of where the SAM people are going. Simon (who got his first professional programming job because of the demos he wrote, and is shortly moving to Microsoft, for mondo $$$$, because of the demos he has written -- see http://jumper.mcc.ac.uk/~simonc/toolkit/cookietools.html for examples of how demo coding techniques can be applied to real-world projects. See http://www.sun.com for examples of what happens when you let people who aren't born demo coders program UI libraries -- I think you'll find it under "Swing". Oh yeah, and as one of the Microsoft interviewers told me [paraphrased] "Because you programmed demo code on a Z80 machine, you'll *always* be keeping one eye on the optimisation issues that most other people won't even consider, which means you'll be rewriting your code less." Apparently, in the interview, I had demonstrated knowledge of 99% of the graphics optimisations that the GDI group had worked out.) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:26:34 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:20:10 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: How dare you repost a private email. In-reply-to: <000001bd900d$32ce5700$0871accf@default> References: <39E654518CF@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39EB037627E@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 373 Lines: 11 > > We are not saying that we can conclusively prove that you are Bob, > > Bill. They just seem to be a lot of funny little things that could be > > interpreted by some as being very similar. > > Including AOL software versions, and log-on times that are within 2 minutes > of one another. There's also this that I've found: http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk/sam/emails.html From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 00:26:35 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:14:48 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: How dare you repost a private email. In-reply-to: <000001bd900d$32ce5700$0871accf@default> References: <39E654518CF@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Message-Id: <19980604232133Z49503-9261+249@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 590 Lines: 21 > From: "Simon Cooke" > > We are not saying that we can conclusively prove that you are Bob, > > Bill. They just seem to be a lot of funny little things that could be > > interpreted by some as being very similar. > > Including AOL software versions, and log-on times that are within 2 minutes > of one another. Apparently the same love of me, same mis-informed opinion of my (lack of) involvement with Persona.... (I dunno... just because I turned down Bob's offer to take over Pheonix .. :( > Oops... did I say that? > > Simon You did :) David From imc Fri Jun 5 00:36:47 1998 Subject: Re: The SAM In-Reply-To: <630f4429.3576ff3a@aol.com> from BillRitman at "Jun 4, 98 04:10:33 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:36:47 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 471 Lines: 11 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:33 EDT, BillRitman said: > > MasterDOS is designed so as to allow extension. It works. > Not according to Bob and Nev. It does not allow extension in the way it > should. Are you saying they are wrong in making that statement? I don't know about MasterBASIC but I have written BASIC extensions which work with or without MasterDOS. If you want to assert that it doesn't work then the ball is in your court. Let's have some specifics. imc From imc Fri Jun 5 00:41:49 1998 Subject: Re: The SAM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980604163609.0078afbc@pop.enterprise.net> from Mark Hillman at "Jun 4, 98 04:36:09 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:41:49 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 659 Lines: 21 On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:36:09 +0100, Mark Hillman said: > At 18:26 29/05/98 EDT, you wrote: You know it is helpful if you say who it is that wrote it. > >> You can copyright the > >>artistic design but it is impossible to copyright the technical design. > er whilst not being an expert on some of the most stupidly complicated law > that england has ever produced... Then why are you bothering to correct me? > you automatically own copyright on anything that you originate. Only if it is an artistic or literary work which has been written or recorded in some material form. And it's 70 years, not 50. imc From imc Fri Jun 5 00:56:11 1998 Subject: Re: Any progress? Good Question:) In-Reply-To: <73d7a481.35680dec@aol.com> from BillRitman at "May 24, 98 08:09:15 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:56:11 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 488 Lines: 11 On Sun, 24 May 1998 08:09:15 EDT, BillRitman said: > We have to remember that when Sam first saw the light of day the > majority of PCs didn't have hard drives as standard. When was this exactly? I did PC testing for IBM in 1987 and one of the machines we tested was an original PC without a hard drive and it seemed rather quaint even then. Also we tested the new line of PS/2 machines which took a funny new kind of disk in a plastic case instead of a floppy folder. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:00:05 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:48:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: In-reply-to: <3575B805.D871538C@purple.dircon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01a) Message-ID: <897004130.1019080.0@error.demon.co.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 368 Lines: 16 From: Gavin Smith > It would be interesting to be the tech support guy though... > "You've shite on your screen? Oh that's normal sir, that's just Windows 95" ??? Sir ??? Ergh, i can't remember ever calling anyone Sir the whole time i was on tech- support. But then again i am from Yorkshire :-) -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:00:05 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:48:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! In-reply-to: <199806041655.RAA22135@ruby.comlab> References: <199805302253.AAA16181@mailserv.caiw.nl> from Robert van der Veeke at "May 31, 98 00:56:07 am" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01a) Message-ID: <897004131.1019081.0@error.demon.co.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 322 Lines: 12 From: Ian Collier > and it was promptly restored from backup by a helpful colleague. What is > it about (presumably) Windows that causes it to go deleting random files > like that? > imc Well, caching doesn't help mattrers, but it does make crashing faster... :-) -- Dean Liversidge From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:00:05 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:54:15 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <000101bd8f4b$8feaf0a0$4826accf@default> References: <38745CE4C49@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39F41AD244B@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 459 Lines: 16 > Hmmm... that's valid C++... but some compilers complain at it (and if you're > using UMIST's doddery old ones, then you're in trouble) try this: > char *trunc(char *s) { > int i = strlen(s); > while (i-- && isspace(s[i])) { > } > s[i]=0; > return s; > } > and if that fails, put the int i on its own, separate line. I still get a declaration syntax error :( It seems it objects to me putting the curly bracket itself after the char *trunc .... MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:08:37 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:00:16 -0400 Message-ID: <000501bd9014$ebe45f80$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <39F41AD244B@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 690 Lines: 28 > > Hmmm... that's valid C++... but some compilers complain at it > (and if you're > > using UMIST's doddery old ones, then you're in trouble) try this: > > char *trunc(char *s) { > > int i = strlen(s); > > while (i-- && isspace(s[i])) { > > } > > s[i]=0; > > return s; > > } > > and if that fails, put the int i on its own, separate line. > > I still get a declaration syntax error :( > It seems it objects to me putting the curly bracket itself after the > char *trunc .... Shit. You're compiling in full C++ mode, possibly then? Maybe... char * ::trunc(char *s) { ... etc Or if you're declaring it as a method in a class, then char * classname::trunc(char *s) { ... Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:08:37 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Any progress? Good Question:) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:00:18 -0400 Message-ID: <000601bd9014$ed2c6fe0$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <199806042356.AAA24076@ruby.comlab> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 682 Lines: 19 > On Sun, 24 May 1998 08:09:15 EDT, BillRitman said: > > We have to remember that when Sam first saw the light > of day the > > majority of PCs didn't have hard drives as standard. > > When was this exactly? I did PC testing for IBM in 1987 and one of the > machines we tested was an original PC without a hard drive and it seemed > rather quaint even then. Also we tested the new line of PS/2 machines > which took a funny new kind of disk in a plastic case instead of a floppy > folder. > > imc IIRC, Windows 3.1 (at least!) was out at the beginning of 1990 - maybe it was Windows 3.0. And that *did* require a hard drive. IIRC, most machines had 40Mb ones. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:19:01 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:12:35 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <000501bd9014$ebe45f80$0871accf@default> References: <39F41AD244B@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39F8FD446BD@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 126 Lines: 5 > Shit. You're compiling in full C++ mode, possibly then? I have no idea what that means. It's just Borland C++ 5.02. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:19:01 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:14:59 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <000501bd9014$ebe45f80$0871accf@default> References: <39F41AD244B@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39F9A60024E@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 155 Lines: 9 > char * ::trunc(char *s) { ... etc OK, I just tried that. Now I get a different error called: Identifier Expected immediately before the char*s MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:33:01 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:25:29 -0400 Message-ID: <000701bd9018$71807220$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <39F9A60024E@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 276 Lines: 15 > > char * ::trunc(char *s) { ... etc > > OK, I just tried that. Now I get a different error called: > > Identifier Expected > > immediately before the char*s > > MJC. You are putting the prototype in the header file, or at the top of the file you're in, aren't you? Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 01:37:31 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:33:52 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <000701bd9018$71807220$0871accf@default> References: <39F9A60024E@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <39FEAA21627@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 332 Lines: 18 > > > char * ::trunc(char *s) { ... etc > > > > OK, I just tried that. Now I get a different error called: > > > > Identifier Expected > > > > immediately before the char*s > > > > MJC. > > You are putting the prototype in the header file, or at the top of the file > you're in, aren't you? > > Simon What is a prototype? MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 02:38:22 1998 Message-Id: <199806050135.CAA15008@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:34:46 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: SimCoupe In-reply-to: <000101bd900d$ea2352c0$0871accf@default> References: <199806042302.AAA29963@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2055 Lines: 54 > IIRC, you're using a Cyrix chip, right? > > > > tried it on Intel chips (486SX-33, Pentium 166MMX) under DOS-DJPP, but > > > > This is under DJGPP, gcc version 2.80, from www.delorie.com a couple > > of months ago. also try: (and i mean this most sincerely) REMOVING all of djgpp, and then reinstalling it again. (assuming you installed gcc 2.80 over a previous version of gcc, or if you installed recent utilities (such as make) over previously installed versions) this is due to the reorganisation of the directory structure for the recent versions of the gnu utilities and stuff. the later versions of gcc and other gnu stuff will inadvertantly load the wong settings in if you have simply installed over a previous version (because it tries to load some old files from the old directories in preference over loading the (correct) new files from the new directories... because the OLD directories are earlier in the search path than the NEW ones... fscking strange but there you have it) it worked for me, anyway. i'd installed 2.80 over 2.7something, and it kept locking up. (at procssor.c) removed the whole djgpp structure, and started again (djdev202, gcc281, bnu???, etc). and now it compiles. might work for you. still can't get the ***ing thing to work once compiled, though. > > > Rar? Whats that? I used Zip because it seems to be the most widespread > > > format for DOS, ie so I don't get loads of mails saying "Whats tar etc" > The day that WinZip can support it properly, I'm switching to it like a > shot. iirc, ZipMagic can support Rar's, as well as .gzip, .zip, .arj, .loadsofstuff. it's GOOD. well, there's some duff points, but nothing serious. it basically integrates zip files into the operating system, as if they were subdirectories. so instead of explicitly unzipping anything, you just browse the directory structure, double click the zip file, and it keeps going like it was a folder. copy the files from the folder to somewhere else and it unzips them en-route. i like it. it's nice. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 02:40:58 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <39FEAA21627@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> References: <000701bd9018$71807220$0871accf@default> <39F9A60024E@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:38:15 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1286 Lines: 47 At 1:33 am +0100 5/6/98, Matthew Craven wrote: >> You are putting the prototype in the header file, or at the top of the file >> you're in, aren't you? >> >> Simon > >What is a prototype? Well I guess that answers Simon's question... You've got to tell the compiler how to call all the functions you define. You do this by adding a "prototype" at the beginning of your file, or #included as a header file. A function prototype starts in the same way as your function definition, but instead of the code in curly brackets afterwards, you just end it with a semicolon. So if your function definition is char *trunc(char *s) { int i; i=strlen(s); while (isspace(s[--i])){}; s[i+1] = 0; return s; } then it should be preceeded by the prototype char *trunc(char *s); HTH Andrew -- +----------------+-----------------------------+--------------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | " | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk/ | Get your kicks | +----------------+-----------------------------+ on 8.124038405 | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | " | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | anon | +----------------------------------------------+--------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 02:54:36 1998 Message-Id: <199806050151.CAA15797@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:51:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: References: <39FEAA21627@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 515 Lines: 26 > >What is a prototype? > > Well I guess that answers Simon's question... i might have missed a bit of code here and there, but, in this case, is it strictly necessary to use a header file? i don't see why missing out the header file would cause *this* code fragment not to compile.. > char *trunc(char *s) > { > int i; > i=strlen(s); > while (isspace(s[--i])){}; > s[i+1] = 0; > return s; > } > dave ps - i've just read your page about Bob/Bill/Samsboss, andrew. makes fascinating reading. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 03:09:02 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:57:40 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bd9025$52b18fc0$2a60accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <199806050151.CAA15797@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1109 Lines: 29 > > > i might have missed a bit of code here and there, but, in this case, > is it strictly necessary to use a header file? i don't see why > missing out the header file would cause *this* code fragment not to > compile.. If you have your compiler set to accept K&R style C, I don't think you'll have a problem. However, at the top of this file, if you're compiling to ANSI C or C++, you'll need the line: char *trunc(char *); (or for readability, char *trunc(char *s) ) If you're not going to use that function in other files (eg. you've created a set of library functions to access DBF files, called dbf.c -- and you want to be able to use those functions in code inside your main.c and lib.c files, then you'll need to put the function prototypes in a header file (possibly called dbf.h), and include it in main.c and lib.c), then put the protoype in your file. The same applies to prototypes for functions which aren't to be called outside of that file's code (eg implementation specific stuff, rather than API-style function lists). Either way, you need a prototype for ANSI compliance. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 03:09:13 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199806050151.CAA15797@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> References: <39FEAA21627@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:06:05 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 978 Lines: 26 At 3:51 am +0100 5/6/98, Dave Hooper wrote: >> >What is a prototype? >> >> Well I guess that answers Simon's question... > > > >i might have missed a bit of code here and there, but, in this case, >is it strictly necessary to use a header file? i don't see why >missing out the header file would cause *this* code fragment not to >compile.. Some compilers just insist on having them present. CodeWarrior gives you the option of turning that particular feature on or off. Andrew -- +----------------+-----------------------------+--------------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | " | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk/ | Get your kicks | +----------------+-----------------------------+ on 8.124038405 | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | " | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | anon | +----------------------------------------------+--------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 03:17:40 1998 Message-Id: <199806050211.DAA16701@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:11:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <000001bd9025$52b18fc0$2a60accf@default> References: <199806050151.CAA15797@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 624 Lines: 17 > However, at the top of this file, if you're compiling to ANSI C or C++, > you'll need the line: > > char *trunc(char *); > > (or for readability, char *trunc(char *s) ) is that a fact? no, i'm not disputing yr authority here, simon! :) i thought you only needed prototypes when dealing with forward references or mutually recursive definitions... and i thought ANSI C could easily cope with having the function declaration itself at the top of the file, followed by the main{} functions or whatever. at least, the 'so-called ANSI C, C++ - compliant' compilers that i've used have no trouble. (borland, gcc) dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 03:37:46 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:27:55 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bd9029$8cc19e40$6228accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <199806050211.DAA16701@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 675 Lines: 14 > is that a fact? no, i'm not disputing yr authority here, simon! :) > > i thought you only needed prototypes when dealing with forward > references or mutually recursive definitions... and i thought ANSI C > could easily cope with having the function declaration itself at the > top of the file, followed by the main{} functions or whatever. at > least, the 'so-called ANSI C, C++ - compliant' compilers that i've > used have no trouble. (borland, gcc) It might be okay for some compilers; most however won't accept it (if they're recent versions). And Lint will have a hissy-fit if it sees it (and you've got a version of Lint that handles ANSI C instead of K&R C) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 03:38:01 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: How dare you repost a private email. Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:29:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bd9029$bab7aba0$6228accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <199806042250.AAA12364@mailserv.caiw.nl> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 291 Lines: 9 > Those demo-coders have made the Sam what it is today and they are still > working on improving and perfecting it. Mr. Ritman if I had any respect > left for you than you have thrown it away for good now. Robert, would you like to rephrase that as "what the SAM was yesterday?" :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 03:41:42 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Unofficial SAM tech man. Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:33:48 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd902a$5ee60140$6228accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <80256619.00330E11.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 1249 Lines: 39 > >Mind you, the new version will have some of that stuff taken out and > >replaced with other bits and bobs... > > Like what? Oh, I dunno yet :) But I'll see what I can come up with :) > > >Like possible ways of replacing SAM BASIC style strings with immutable > >objects (though that might just appear on the BOAI website). > > Immutable objects? That's a term I haven't heard before... The easiest way I can describe it is this. You have a string: a$ = "THIS IS MY STRING" And you do b$=a$ With immutable objects, you wouldn't copy a$ to create b$; you'd just have a pointer to the string used by a$ (as would a$). b$=a$(to 4) would have a pointer to the string that a$ uses, with some info defining which part of the string it uses. Until you actually modify the string such that it would break the other references (eg it's okay to add to the end of the string, but changing the start of the string is a no-no), they'd all use the same reference in memory. Hey presto! Suddenly, you're using a lot less memory for your string storage, and string slicing, etc is a lot more efficient, as you're not creating lots of copies that are passed around, you're just passing references around with a bit of helper information instead. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 08:24:46 1998 Message-ID: <006501bd9051$e8f59040$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.orctel.internal> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: The SAM Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:16:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 292 Lines: 11 >Now you are getting confused. Developing techniques has little to do with >writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial software companies >sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. Ah. That's where you're _completely_ wrong.... :p DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 08:29:51 1998 Message-ID: <009401bd9052$bd8e9cc0$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.orctel.internal> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: SimCoupe Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:22:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 307 Lines: 13 >IIRC, you're using a Cyrix chip, right? > >In that case, you'll have problems with GCC under certain circumstances -- >the compile will fall over on that chip. You may want to look around for >another, more up-to-date copy of the compiler. Or another, more up-to-date copy of the chip..... :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 10:19:07 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661A.0032B727.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:18:06 +0100 Subject: Re: Formidable Ale and Scousers. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 190 Lines: 10 >the best bitter in the world is Okells - the Isle of Man's finest... Never tried that.. Hobgoblin, Spitfire, Old Devil, Old Speckled Hen, Fuller's Vintage (8.5% - Nice!).... :) Justin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 10:30:03 1998 Message-Id: From: Dan Doore Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:22:37 +0000 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Subject: RE: Formidable Ale and Scousers. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: TFS Gateway /310000000/310102093/310102123/310460310/ X-Engine: "TFS Engine Release 3.12 Build 101" X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 137 Lines: 14 > Hobgoblin, Spitfire, Old Devil, Old Speckled Hen, > Fuller's Vintage (8.5% - Nice!).... :) Dizzy Dicks (10.5%) Splendid. Dan. From imc Fri Jun 5 10:44:56 1998 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-Reply-To: <000001bd9029$8cc19e40$6228accf@default> from Simon Cooke at "Jun 4, 98 10:27:55 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:44:56 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 729 Lines: 17 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:27:55 -0400, Simon Cooke said: > > i thought you only needed prototypes when dealing with forward > > references > It might be okay for some compilers; most however won't accept it (if > they're recent versions). I agree with Dave. As far as I know, in plain ANSI C the function definition *is* a prototype (as long as it is in ANSI syntax, not K&R syntax) and if the function definition appears before any reference to it then there is no need for a separate prototype as well. This may or may not apply to C++, and I could be wrong anyway. However, gcc 2.8.1 with all warnings turned on does not complain and it's usually quite good at spotting things like that. (And neither does g++, fwiw.) imc From imc Fri Jun 5 10:47:44 1998 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-Reply-To: <199806050151.CAA15797@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> from Dave Hooper at "Jun 5, 98 02:51:20 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:47:44 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 449 Lines: 17 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:51:20 +0000, Dave Hooper said: > i might have missed a bit of code here and there, but, in this case, > is it strictly necessary to use a header file? > > char *trunc(char *s) > > { > > int i; > > i=strlen(s); > > while (isspace(s[--i])){}; > > s[i+1] = 0; > > return s; > > } Well, you need the header file to get isspace - don't know if I mentioned that. Yes I know that's not what you meant. :-) imc From imc Fri Jun 5 10:49:01 1998 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-Reply-To: <39FEAA21627@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> from Matthew Craven at "Jun 5, 98 01:33:52 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:49:01 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 179 Lines: 7 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:33:52 BST, Matthew Craven said: > What is a prototype? Just a question... why are you programming in C++ if you don't know how to program in C++? ;-) imc From imc Fri Jun 5 10:56:39 1998 Subject: Re: Any progress? Good Question:) In-Reply-To: <000601bd9014$ed2c6fe0$0871accf@default> from Simon Cooke at "Jun 4, 98 08:00:18 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:56:39 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 944 Lines: 23 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:00:18 -0400, Simon Cooke said: > > > We have to remember that when Sam first saw the light > > of day the > > > majority of PCs didn't have hard drives as standard. > > When was this exactly? I did PC testing for IBM in 1987 and one of the > > machines we tested was an original PC without a hard drive and it seemed > > rather quaint even then. > IIRC, Windows 3.1 (at least!) was out at the beginning of 1990 - maybe it > was Windows 3.0. Can I ask what the relevance of this is? :-) > And that *did* require a hard drive. IIRC, most machines had 40Mb ones. In 1990? That sounds a bit low. The 486 came out in 1990, I think. I took a "portable" 486 PC home from IBM one weekend. It must have weighed at least 30 pounds and had a monochrome orange screen. Unfortunately I can't remember the hard disk size but it had OS/2 1.3EE (pre-release) and a complete set of OS/2 development tools on it. imc From imc Fri Jun 5 11:04:34 1998 Subject: Re: Unofficial SAM tech man. In-Reply-To: <000201bd902a$5ee60140$6228accf@default> from Simon Cooke at "Jun 4, 98 10:33:48 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:04:34 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1106 Lines: 25 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:33:48 -0400, Simon Cooke said: > > >Like possible ways of replacing SAM BASIC style strings with immutable > > >objects (though that might just appear on the BOAI website). Do you mean re-implementing the BASIC interpreter or what? > > Immutable objects? That's a term I haven't heard before... Basically it's the same as copy-on-write pages. :-) It's also the scheme used for strings in Object Rexx, not that I expect anyone to get that reference. > Until you actually modify the string such that it would break the other > references (eg it's okay to add to the end of the string, but changing the > start of the string is a no-no), they'd all use the same reference in > memory. Adding to the end of the string might be problematic, depending on how you allocate memory. In the traditional C malloc/realloc scheme of things you might cause the string to move when you append to it, which would break the other references. Of course in the SAM BASIC model you instead cause all later strings to move, which will break a whole lot of references unless you are careful. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:10:16 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ATLANTECH From: Scott Russell To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <0025661A.003A706E.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:38:44 +0000 Subject: RE: Formidable Ale and Scousers. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 62 Lines: 6 Skullcrusher. Only available on Orkney. 14.5% 'nuff said. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:10:17 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661A.00343118.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:49:26 +0100 Subject: RE: The SAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 610 Lines: 19 Simon wrote: >2. Depends on what you define as real software. Remember: the people who >coded demos were only a very few and far between subset of the SAM userbase. >Why aren't you having a go at the people who didn't write *anything* for >their SAM or make it available for others? Oh dear... That sounds like a go at me... :( But I am writing something now that I want to release as freeware.. It's basically something simple to start developing something for that much bigger MIDI progect of mine... I restarted it last night using Comet (after trying to get it to do what I want it to do...) Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:10:19 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661A.0035FFEB.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:52:09 +0100 Subject: Re: The SAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 369 Lines: 13 >you automatically own copyright on anything that you originate. > >wether you've registered it or not. And to prove it in court, you can put it in a sealed envelope, get someone to sign (crossing) over the flap-part. And send it to yourself thus having the post-mark as a date. When you get it back, keep it safe without openning it until needed at court. Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:10:20 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661A.00363D97.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:52:47 +0100 Subject: RE: Formidable Ale and Scousers. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 87 Lines: 8 >Dizzy Dicks (10.5%) > >Splendid. WHERE FROM?!?!?! GIMME GIMME GIMME!!!!!!!! Justin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:10:24 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661A.00368CD8.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:56:09 +0100 Subject: RE: Unofficial SAM tech man. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 312 Lines: 9 >Hey presto! Suddenly, you're using a lot less memory for your string >storage, and string slicing, etc is a lot more efficient, as you're not >creating lots of copies that are passed around, you're just passing >references around with a bit of helper information instead. I see what you mean now! :) Justin. From imc Fri Jun 5 11:14:38 1998 Subject: Re: The SAM In-Reply-To: <8025661A.0035FFEB.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> from "Justin_Skists@case.co.uk" at "Jun 5, 98 10:52:09 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:14:38 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 344 Lines: 9 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:52:09 +0100, Justin_Skists@case.co.uk said: > And to prove it in court, you can put it in a sealed envelope, > get someone to sign (crossing) over the flap-part. And send it > to yourself By registered post. With a certificate of posting. I hadn't heard about the signature though - that sounds like a good idea. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:25:41 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661A.00393698.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:25:27 +0100 Subject: RE: Formidable Ale and Scousers. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 119 Lines: 11 >Skullcrusher. > >Only available on Orkney. > >14.5% 'nuff said. I know where my next holiday will be... Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:37:55 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661A.0039F637.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:35:10 +0100 Subject: Re: The SAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 510 Lines: 16 >> And to prove it in court, you can put it in a sealed envelope, >> get someone to sign (crossing) over the flap-part. And send it >> to yourself > >By registered post. With a certificate of posting. I hadn't heard >about the signature though - that sounds like a good idea. I don't know if the signature is really needed, but if you're going against someone big, then you'd need all the help you can get. Registered post and certificate is good too... You don't want Postman Pat to lose it... Justin. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:46:56 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:42:50 BST Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <3AA11403664@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 351 Lines: 15 > > > char *trunc(char *s) > > > { > > > int i; > > > i=strlen(s); > > > while (isspace(s[--i])){}; > > > s[i+1] = 0; > > > return s; > > > } > > Well, you need the header file to get isspace - don't know if I > mentioned that. Yes I know that's not what you meant. :-) I don't think you mentioned that. I'll try that then. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:46:58 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:43:39 BST Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <3AA14C65020@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 218 Lines: 9 > > What is a prototype? > > Just a question... why are you programming in C++ if you don't know how to > program in C++? ;-) I'm trying to teach myself the language, but I don't fully know all the terms yet. MJC. From imc Fri Jun 5 11:48:12 1998 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-Reply-To: <3AA14C65020@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> from Matthew Craven at "Jun 5, 98 11:43:39 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:48:12 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 139 Lines: 6 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:43:39 BST, Matthew Craven said: > I'm trying to teach myself the language Wouldn't plain C have been simpler? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 11:58:43 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:54:32 BST Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <3AA431B3194@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 700 Lines: 27 > >What is a prototype? > Well I guess that answers Simon's question... > You've got to tell the compiler how to call all the functions you define. > You do this by adding a "prototype" at the beginning of your file, or > #included as a header file. > A function prototype starts in the same way as your function definition, > but instead of the code in curly brackets afterwards, you just end it with > a semicolon. > So if your function definition is > char *trunc(char *s) > { > int i; > i=strlen(s); > while (isspace(s[--i])){}; > s[i+1] = 0; > return s; > } > then it should be preceeded by the prototype > char *trunc(char *s); > HTH > Andrew Thanks for explaining this to me. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 12:20:11 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAM References: <8025661A.0035FFEB.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 05 Jun 1998 11:58:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk's message of "Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:52:09 +0100" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 513 Lines: 18 Justin_Skists@case.co.uk writes: > >you automatically own copyright on anything that you originate. > > > >wether you've registered it or not. > > And to prove it in court, you can put it in a sealed envelope, > get someone to sign (crossing) over the flap-part. And send it > to yourself thus having the post-mark as a date. When you get > it back, keep it safe without openning it until needed at > court. Or deposit it in a bank safety deposit box .... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North http://yawn.nocrew.org/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 12:20:12 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:59:30 BST Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: <3AA57D25F18@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 98 Lines: 7 > Wouldn't plain C have been simpler? > > imc I thought I might as well go the whole hog. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 12:34:58 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAM References: <630f4429.3576ff3a@aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 05 Jun 1998 12:28:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: 's message of "Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:33 EDT" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2249 Lines: 49 writes: > In a message dated 03/06/98 21:09:04, you write: > > > Do you know what publicity those demos created? Those "stupid" > > demos actually gave the SAM world something to live for, even at > > the start. Take SCPDU, for example. Take the Star Trek and > > Megablast demos which (at one point, I believe) sold more copies of > > FRED disk magazine than anything else, and were also featured in > > Crash! Magazine. > > Something to live for? Balls. Just think of how many games and utilities could > have been written with half the effort that was wasted on demos. I take it you have done much machine code programming on the SAM since this statement is clearly absolute tosh. I don't think you could write even a single decent game with only half the effort needed to write a demo. Sure it's possible to knock up a FRED-menu type demo in a day if you're doing predictable stuff (Ignoring the graphics and music creation ...) but to write a game would take probably a hundred times more effort. I know. > Now you are getting confused. Developing techniques has little to do with > writing demos has it. Yes in the sense that you write little test programs to check a routine works before you integrate it into the main code base (Unless of course you work for Microsloth :)). Games/Demos - exactly the same principle. > Do the people working for commercial software companies > sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. I don't. So maybe they don't write demo's, but they will write test versions of routines. If they don't they're a bad coder. > But surely you would get the same out of trying to develop viable games and > utilities. A point I think Bob has made several times in the past. Yes but if you jump straight into a game you might find half way through that it won't work, and you've wasted several hundred hours of effort on nothing, whereas if you code little routines up into demos you can check things are possible, while still having something to make FRED look pretty, therefore encouraging resubscription, keeping the company alive and allowing its expansion into a full publishing type thingy ... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North http://yawn.nocrew.org/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 12:34:59 1998 Message-ID: <3577D6B2.68A2CBB6@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 12:29:54 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM References: <3AA57D25F18@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 928 Lines: 26 Matthew Craven wrote: > > > Wouldn't plain C have been simpler? > > > > imc > > I thought I might as well go the whole hog. > > MJC. You might as well indeed. Some people reckon it's an advantage to learn C first, but others reckon it's actually a disadvantage as you have to then unlearn the way of thinking that you picked up with C. If you're a beginner, http://www.mcp.com/personal/ is a site with loads of SAMS (no relation) Publishing books, books which often cost 40 quid and upwards in the bookshops. They have a couple of C++ books, Teach Yourself C++ in 21 Days, that kind of thing. You can just save the HTML files to disk, along with any graphics, and you can then read the book in your own time. HTH Gavin -- * Gavin Smith - ICQ:5099913 Email:gavin.smith@purple.dircon.co.uk * * IRC Undernet's #TheLocal, #SAM-Users as SparkY or SparkYY * * http://www.shudehill.demon.co.uk/thelocal * From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 12:34:59 1998 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: How dare you repost a private email. References: <9a922029.3576ff42@aol.com> X-Mammoth-Status: Aware X-{giggle}: Lots! From: The Giggler Date: 05 Jun 1998 12:30:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: 's message of "Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:41 EDT" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 629 Lines: 18 writes: > > And as for BillRitman, it's amazing how he makes the same spelling > > mistakes as you do when he decides to launch a personal attack on > > people. > > I can't help it is my spilling is not as good as your spolling, or that this > keyboard does not always keep up with me. I notice that others make spelling > mistokes as well. Could they be Bob too? If you read his post (You _can_ read I take it ...) you'll see that he didn't say you were Bob because you made spelling mistakes, but that you made *the same* spelling mistakes ... Lee. -- Yawn And Walk North http://yawn.nocrew.org/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 12:42:00 1998 From: Mr P R Horridge Message-Id: <199806051136.MAA10333@crocus.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The SAM In-Reply-To: <000401bd8ff9$311db0e0$0871accf@default> from Simon Cooke at "Jun 4, 98 04:41:46 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:36:52 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1425 Lines: 25 > BTW: This particular Stupid Demo Coder coded parts of Exodus, Lemmings, > Prince of Persia, Populous and Parallax on the SAM. As well as a SAM to BMP > file converter, various disk utilities, DOS extensions, other file > converters, compressors that were used by other coders in their games/demos, > disk copy and disk protection utilities which have been used for a number of > SAM releases, text compression and display routines, tutorials, scrollers, > articles, fonts and font display programs, graphical editors, menus, and > more. Other stupid demo coders, such as Andrew Collier, have coded other > games (including the excellent MineSweeper). Still more, such as Stefan > Drissen, have coded Sophistry, worked on a conversion of Pang, IIRC, and > wrote the Mod Player. Edwin Blink, who started out as a stupid demo coder > (his stupid demo was played live on the SAM information line), wrote COMET > Assembler. > Neil Holmes and Stuart Leonardi wrote stupid demos. They also coded up > Parallax and Exodus. > David Gommeren wrote stupid demos. He also coded Batz n Balls, and the SAM > version of TETRIS that everyone must surely have a copy of somewhere. > ESI wrote stupid demos. They also programmed The Bulgulators, E-Tracker, > Craft and SnakeMania. > Paul Crompton wrote stupid demos. He also programmed GI-Mon. Thanks for mentioning GI_Mon, but it was actually written by me... :) Cheers, Paul Horridge. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 13:16:30 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199806051136.MAA10333@crocus.csv.warwick.ac.uk> References: <000401bd8ff9$311db0e0$0871accf@default> from Simon Cooke at "Jun 4, 98 04:41:46 pm" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:10:24 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: The SAM X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 883 Lines: 25 At 12:36 pm +0100 5/6/98, Mr P R Horridge wrote: >> Paul Crompton wrote stupid demos. He also programmed GI-Mon. > >Thanks for mentioning GI_Mon, but it was actually written by me... :) > >Cheers, > Paul Horridge. Now there's a thing, I didn't read that carefully enough.... shame on you Simon! :) But his point still applies - you write demos, and you write other things too. Andrew -- +----------------+-----------------------------+--------------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | " | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk/ | Get your kicks | +----------------+-----------------------------+ on 8.124038405 | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | " | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | anon | +----------------------------------------------+--------------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 13:26:55 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ATLANTECH From: Scott Russell To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <0025661A.00484B82.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:18:03 +0000 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 363 Lines: 15 >I'm trying to teach myself the language, but I don't fully know all >the terms yet. If you're trying to teach yourself Object Oriented programming, then I'll be happy to help if possible. If you're using C++, but not OOP, then I'd advise moving to OOP, coz it's just a nicer way of doing things from a design perspective. IMHO of course..... Cheers Scott From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 14:34:41 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:32:29 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <0025661A.00484B82.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <3ACE4761BF2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 302 Lines: 10 > If you're trying to teach yourself Object Oriented programming, then I'll > be happy to help if possible. If you're using C++, but not OOP, then I'd advise moving to OOP, coz it's > just a nicer way of doing things from a design perspective. IMHO of > course..... You mean like visual C++? MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 14:40:59 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:34:43 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <3577D6B2.68A2CBB6@purple.dircon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <3ACEE5A663D@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 669 Lines: 12 > You might as well indeed. Some people reckon it's an advantage to learn C first, > but others reckon it's actually a disadvantage as you have to then unlearn the > way of thinking that you picked up with C. If you're a beginner, > http://www.mcp.com/personal/ is a site with loads of SAMS (no relation) > Publishing books, books which often cost 40 quid and upwards in the bookshops. > They have a couple of C++ books, Teach Yourself C++ in 21 Days, that kind of > thing. You can just save the HTML files to disk, along with any graphics, and > you can then read the book in your own time. That's excellent - thanks. I thought I'd expand my repertoire a bit. MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 15:04:15 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ATLANTECH From: Scott Russell To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <0025661A.0050BDCE.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:57:11 +0000 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 316 Lines: 12 Visual C++ is Microsoft Visual Windows Dev stuff using C++. By OOP, I'm talking about the concepts of Classes, members, methods, inheritance, encapsualtion, polymorphism and all that good stuff. Visual C++ uses all these concepts, although, I've never used it so I can't comment on how good it is. Cheers Scott From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 15:59:03 1998 Message-Id: <199806051454.PAA22256@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:54:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: The SAM In-reply-to: <000301bd900e$60d11920$0871accf@default> References: <199806042307.AAA30744@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1463 Lines: 43 > Most infinitely. In fact, I was offered a job at a company in Chicago four > or five years ago programming Sega MasterSystem games on the strength of my > demos. Yesyes. Git. I should have started writing demos... > IIRC, Wayne Coales has a job at Reflections on the strength of his demos (he > also wrote a couple of simple games- Columns) That was the other one. > I wish I could remember the other demo coders who now have incredibly good > jobs because of it. I think Colin McD is keeping at least some kind of track > of where the SAM people are going. DMZ did, I'm fairly sure; Stefan doesn't count, since he's an accountant (with a very out of date website! STEFAN! wakeup!). Can't remember any others, but I'm sure there's a couple. > (who got his first professional programming job because of the demos he > wrote, and is shortly moving to Microsoft, for mondo $$$$, because of the :-P > http://www.sun.com for examples of what happens when you let people who > aren't born demo coders program UI libraries -- I think you'll find it under > "Swing". Oh yeah, and as one of the Microsoft interviewers told me Hey, it's better than the AWT. Got to be. Besides, I couldn't find the fscking libraries when I tried - do they hide them or something? Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 15:59:04 1998 Message-Id: <199806051454.PAA22275@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:54:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <199806040019.BAA15804@ruby.comlab> References: <199806040003.BAA06369@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from Paul Walker at "Jun 4, 98 01:03:12 am" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 722 Lines: 22 > i count upwards starting from the end of the string. Be prepared for a > core dump. Core dump shmore dump, I get those all.. the ... time.... Ah. > Now call me silly, but that looks to me like the scope of i is just the > for instruction. Is C++ syntax misleading enough to allow this or is it > just that you thought the second line was part of the for instruction? I have no idea whatsoever, since I can't see what I wrote. BTW - the reason C++ is used rather than C is because you can't do objects in C. Objects are useful. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 15:59:04 1998 Message-Id: <199806051454.PAA22253@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:54:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: SimCoupe In-reply-to: <000101bd900d$ea2352c0$0871accf@default> References: <199806042302.AAA29963@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 862 Lines: 24 > In that case, you'll have problems with GCC under certain circumstances -- > the compile will fall over on that chip. You may want to look around for > another, more up-to-date copy of the compiler. I did think about this, but discounted it as other programs compile okay. Probably nothing the complexity of SimCoupe, though, so I'll check the website sometime soon. [Rar] > The day that WinZip can support it properly, I'm switching to it like a > shot. Dump WinZip - I only use it for .zip and .tar.gz files now. WinRar for other stuff. :-) Better compression, active development of the algorithms, an author I can contact .. what more do I want? Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 16:32:43 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: The SAM Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:22:36 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bd9095$c4e34f00$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <8025661A.00343118.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 413 Lines: 12 > Simon wrote: > > >2. Depends on what you define as real software. Remember: the people who > >coded demos were only a very few and far between subset of the SAM > userbase. > >Why aren't you having a go at the people who didn't write *anything* for > >their SAM or make it available for others? Nah... not deliberately. I just can't see why Bill is pissed off at people who increased the software base. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 16:38:09 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: The SAM Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:27:44 -0400 Message-ID: <000301bd9096$7ca4a120$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <199806051136.MAA10333@crocus.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 105 Lines: 5 > Thanks for mentioning GI_Mon, but it was actually written by me... :) Oh bollocks. Sorry Paul. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 16:38:11 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Any progress? Good Question:) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:27:43 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd9096$7bbb2b80$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <199806050956.KAA26428@ruby.comlab> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 453 Lines: 18 > > > When was this exactly? I did PC testing for IBM in 1987 and > one of the > > > machines we tested was an original PC without a hard drive > and it seemed > > > rather quaint even then. > > > IIRC, Windows 3.1 (at least!) was out at the beginning of 1990 > - maybe it > > was Windows 3.0. > > Can I ask what the relevance of this is? :-) Well, Bill was questioning the number of hard drives out there. Windows required a hard drive... :) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 16:41:00 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:32:54 -0400 Message-ID: <000401bd9097$359599a0$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <3ACE4761BF2@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 661 Lines: 19 > > If you're trying to teach yourself Object Oriented programming, > then I'll > > be happy to help if possible. > If you're using C++, but not OOP, then I'd advise moving to OOP, coz > it's > > just a nicer way of doing things from a design perspective. IMHO of > > course..... > > You mean like visual C++? Errrrk... Not quite. Visual C++, while a pretty good C++/C compiler, is only object orientated if you write your code that way -- it won't do that bit for you. If you use MFC, it's pretty object orientated, but most designers would turn their nose up at it, as it's mainly a very thin wrapper library over a very C set of APIs for Windows. Simon From imc Fri Jun 5 16:46:09 1998 Subject: Re: Any progress? Good Question:) In-Reply-To: <000201bd9096$7bbb2b80$c026accf@default> from Simon Cooke at "Jun 5, 98 11:27:43 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:46:09 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 375 Lines: 9 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:27:43 -0400, Simon Cooke said: > Well, Bill was questioning the number of hard drives out there. Windows > required a hard drive... Sam was launched in 1989 though, and you were talking about 1990 whereas I was saying that PCs without hard drives were actually moderately rare in 1987, which was the year that the IBM PS/2 computer was released. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 17:01:37 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ATLANTECH From: Scott Russell To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <0025661A.005C0493.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:53:54 +0000 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 1082 Lines: 33 >Now call me silly, but that looks to me like the scope of i is just the > for instruction. Is C++ syntax misleading enough to allow this or is it > just that you thought the second line was part of the for instruction? Just jumping in here, so tell me to shut up if I'm talking mince... in C++, you can, very usefully initialise variables in the for loop ie for(int i=0;i To: sam-users Subject: RE: Any progress? Good Question:) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:53:11 -0400 Message-ID: <000601bd909a$0ab2df60$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <199806051546.QAA28927@ruby.comlab> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 448 Lines: 12 > On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:27:43 -0400, Simon Cooke said: > > Well, Bill was questioning the number of hard drives out there. Windows > > required a hard drive... > > Sam was launched in 1989 though, and you were talking about 1990 whereas > I was saying that PCs without hard drives were actually moderately rare > in 1987, which was the year that the IBM PS/2 computer was released. Well, December 1989, but if you want to split hairs... Simon From imc Fri Jun 5 17:07:41 1998 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-Reply-To: <0025661A.005C0493.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> from Scott Russell at "Jun 5, 98 04:53:54 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:07:41 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 188 Lines: 6 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:53:54 +0000, Scott Russell said: > The integer 'i' goes out of scope when the for-loop terminates. That's what I was asking. It is what I hoped would be true imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 17:17:48 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:08:30 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bd909c$2e58a060$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <0025661A.005C0493.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 877 Lines: 19 > If you're going to try C++, get into using Objects. If you program C++ as > "C with some features" you will have an absolute nightmare trying > to change > your thought patterns moving to Object Oriented Programming. OOP is > practically all I know, apart from some BASIC from the SAM (very limited), > Pascal, 68000 and C that we got in University. Since I started work it's > been OOP. Going back to procedural BASIC on the SAM is proving > to be a bit > of a disaster. As an aside, is there a decent SAM BASIC manual available > with decent examples and better explanations? Personally, I'd recommend programming in Java as a teaching tool for OOP principles. As long as the programmer gets to grips with partially-abstract classes, and interfaces, that is. Moving to C++ then is a bit easier -- you're not all that bogged down with pointers, for a start... Simon From imc Fri Jun 5 17:21:29 1998 Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-Reply-To: <000001bd909c$2e58a060$c026accf@default> from Simon Cooke at "Jun 5, 98 12:08:30 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:21:29 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 305 Lines: 9 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:08:30 -0400, Simon Cooke said: > Personally, I'd recommend programming in Java as a teaching tool for OOP > principles. I'd recommend Object Rexx or NetRexx if merely learning OOP is the goal. NetRexx is implemented in Java and is free so yes it does run on your machine. :-) imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 18:13:12 1998 Message-ID: <35782649.74AD6A32@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:09:29 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM References: <0025661A.005C0493.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 492 Lines: 12 Scott Russell wrote: > of a disaster. As an aside, is there a decent SAM BASIC manual available > with decent examples and better explanations? Andrew Collier's BASIC guide is pretty damn groovy, and can be found in back issues of Zodiac or current issues of Blitz. Well worth getting. -- * Gavin Smith - ICQ:5099913 Email:gavin.smith@purple.dircon.co.uk * * IRC Undernet's #TheLocal, #SAM-Users as SparkY or SparkYY * * http://www.shudehill.demon.co.uk/thelocal * From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 18:21:19 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:16:02 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 824 Lines: 20 In a message dated 04/06/98 16:56:51, you write: > > You know, I have to wonder about the number of times I have heard different > people say "My system crashed and I lost X number of mail messages". I've > had a small number of crashes myself but never lost any files in them. I've > only ever lost one file that wasn't due to a silly mistake on my part (why > the file - an archive of read messages - disappeared is still a mystery) > and it was promptly restored from backup by a helpful colleague. What is > it about (presumably) Windows that causes it to go deleting random files > like that? > > imc I don't think it is just Windows, I think it is the whole system. There is just too much hanging together to keep things going these days. That is why I like my Sam so much, I can cope with it. Bill. From imc Fri Jun 5 18:33:45 1998 Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: from BillRitman at "Jun 5, 98 01:16:02 pm" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:33:45 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 492 Lines: 12 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:16:02 EDT, BillRitman said: > In a message dated 04/06/98 16:56:51, you write: > > What is > > it about (presumably) Windows that causes it to go deleting random files > > like that? > I don't think it is just Windows, I think it is the whole system. What whole system? It's certainly nothing intrinsic to PC hardware since I've been running Linux for 10 months and haven't lost a file yet. imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 18:56:35 1998 Message-Id: <199806051747.SAA14857@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:47:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The SAM In-reply-to: <199806042341.AAA23987@ruby.comlab> References: <3.0.1.32.19980604163609.0078afbc@pop.enterprise.net> from Mark Hillman at "Jun 4, 98 04:36:09 pm" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 409 Lines: 11 > > you automatically own copyright on anything that you originate. > Only if it is an artistic or literary work which has been written > or recorded in some material form. And on computer programs. (Intellectual property.) Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 18:56:36 1998 Message-Id: <199806051747.SAA14864@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:47:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <0025661A.0050BDCE.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 340 Lines: 10 > Visual C++ uses all these concepts, although, I've never used it so I can't > comment on how good it is. It's a Microsoft development tool. Enough said. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 18:56:37 1998 Message-Id: <199806051747.SAA14860@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:47:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: SimCoupe In-reply-to: <199806050135.CAA15008@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> References: <000101bd900d$ea2352c0$0871accf@default> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 488 Lines: 13 > REMOVING all of djgpp, and then reinstalling it again. (assuming you > installed gcc 2.80 over a previous version of gcc, or if you > installed recent utilities (such as make) over previously installed > versions) Fresh install. Never been installed before. I do read the README files, y'know. :) Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 18:56:38 1998 Message-Id: <199806051747.SAA14880@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:47:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: The SAM In-reply-to: <3575B768.7DBAD2E0@purple.dircon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 619 Lines: 15 > And for the love of the machine. Nothing wrong, of course, from making [stuff] > from it, but I think doing something for free, for other people, shows exactly > how much they love the machine. (My girlfriend always get jealous the way I talk > about love for the SAM Coupe *grins*) I think I need to adjust my filters - this one got dumped in the "junk" folder, since you used the phrase "making mon3y". (Except with an E.) :-) Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 19:20:11 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:10:11 -0400 Message-ID: <000301bd90ad$2e071540$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <199806051733.SAA29672@ruby.comlab> Importance: Normal X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 715 Lines: 20 > On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:16:02 EDT, BillRitman said: > > In a message dated 04/06/98 16:56:51, you write: > > > > What is > > > it about (presumably) Windows that causes it to go deleting > random files > > > like that? > > > I don't think it is just Windows, I think it is the whole system. > > What whole system? It's certainly nothing intrinsic to PC hardware since > I've been running Linux for 10 months and haven't lost a file yet. Remember though: cheap hardware often acts unpredictably, and can cause system hangs because it isn't as "whatever" compatible as it claims. I've had no end of trouble with that in the past. And on some production machines too (don't buy NEC or Packard Bell) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 19:51:14 1998 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:32:12 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: Stupid demo coders! (Was Re: The SAM) In-Reply-To: <19980604211428Z49486-9261+214@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 330 Lines: 12 In article <19980604211428Z49486-9261+214@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no>, David Ledbury at writes >> From: > >Obviously you missed my earlier posting Well, you're in his killfile, aren't you? Oops, no, that's Bob isn't it - sorry, I got confused for a minute... -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:07:43 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:47:48 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Stupid demo coders! (Was Re: The SAM) In-reply-to: References: <19980604211428Z49486-9261+214@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Message-Id: <19980605185427Z49493-9261+448@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 397 Lines: 15 > In article <19980604211428Z49486-9261+214@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no>, David > Ledbury at writes > >> From: > > > >Obviously you missed my earlier posting > > Well, you're in his killfile, aren't you? > > Oops, no, that's Bob isn't it - sorry, I got confused for a minute... > > -- > Ian Dalziel They are so different ... how can u? :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:07:45 1998 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:40:53 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! but not as big an idiot as Robert!!! In-Reply-To: <000201bd900d$eb1f17e0$0871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 283 Lines: 10 In article <000201bd900d$eb1f17e0$0871accf@default>, Simon Cooke writes >I think that Nev's trying to insinuate that someone has cloned him, Oh Christ - vision of a row of identical Nevs... Think I'll go and lie down in a darkened room... -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:07:45 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:55:30 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 451 Lines: 17 In a message dated 04/06/98 20:44:45, you write: > > From: > > > > > > Hmmm... fat, balding guy who enigmatically knows the truth of all > things... > > > think it's already been done. > > > > ???? > > Ever hear of a minor cult called Buddism? > (And I can't spell either... but i'm quite sure I'm not Bob!) > > I hardly think one of the worlds top 5 religions could be called a minor cult. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:07:46 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <95aa4a37.35783f30@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:55:38 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: FRODE - READ Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 919 Lines: 30 In a message dated 04/06/98 21:25:51, you write: > > Can we please get rid of Bill Ritman and Bob Brenchley immediately. Like now. On what grounds? > > No, don't sit there and do nothing - do it now. We are all sick and tired of > him, we are all sick of his abuse, sick of his childish fighting, and I'm > sick > of getting abusive emails, full of insults from him, such as "stupid, > ignorant > little cunt" and I'm also sick of hearing about other people getting abusive > email from him, also full of insults about various people on this list, > including me being called "that anal retentive > arsehole Gavin". YOU ARE > MEANT > TO BE THE LIST MANAGER - MANAGE THE BLOODY THING! We're here to talk about > the > SAM, if you won't let that happen, another list will appear pretty damn soon. So, if the list doen't fit in with you....... Yes, I get the idea. > > Everyone else agree? > Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:07:47 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <91aac737.35783f2e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:55:41 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: How dare you repost a private email. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 962 Lines: 29 In a message dated 04/06/98 23:10:42, you write: > > > > I can't help it is my spilling is not as good as your > > spolling, or that > > > this > > > > keyboard does not always keep up with me. I notice that others make > > > spelling > > > > mistokes as well. Could they be Bob too? > > > > Of course they could be. It could be that we are all clones of Bob. > > > > We are not saying that we can conclusively prove that you are Bob, > > Bill. They just seem to be a lot of funny little things that could be > > interpreted by some as being very similar. > > Including AOL software versions, and log-on times that are within 2 minutes > of one another. > > Oops... did I say that? > > Simon I use AOL version 3.01 because it is the only version I have. What else can I use? Well I've even been online at the same time as Bob a couple of times and used Instant Mail to have short chats. I can't help what time he is on now can I? Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:07:48 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <4cd61eb7.35783f2f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:55:42 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The SAM Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 644 Lines: 18 In a message dated 04/06/98 23:37:33, you write: > On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:33 EDT, BillRitman said: > > > MasterDOS is designed so as to allow extension. It works. > > > Not according to Bob and Nev. It does not allow extension in the way it > > should. Are you saying they are wrong in making that statement? > > I don't know about MasterBASIC but I have written BASIC extensions which > work with or without MasterDOS. If you want to assert that it doesn't > work then the ball is in your court. Let's have some specifics. > > imc I don't have spacifics, I'm only repeating what Bob and Nev posted to this list. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:07:56 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <3f4f2438.35783fdb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:58:34 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 631 Lines: 20 In a message dated 05/06/98 17:34:45, you write: > On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:16:02 EDT, BillRitman said: > > In a message dated 04/06/98 16:56:51, you write: > > > What > is > > > it about (presumably) Windows that causes it to go deleting random > files > > > like that? > > > I don't think it is just Windows, I think it is the whole system. > > What whole system? It's certainly nothing intrinsic to PC hardware since > I've been running Linux for 10 months and haven't lost a file yet. > > imc > Ok, the part that Microsoft write :) Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:20:58 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:05:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: In-reply-to: Message-Id: <19980605191210Z49488-9261+450@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 269 Lines: 12 > > > > Ever hear of a minor cult called Buddism? > > (And I can't spell either... but i'm quite sure I'm not Bob!) > > > > > I hardly think one of the worlds top 5 religions could be called a minor cult. > > Bill. Ever hear of sarcasm? No... perhaps not! From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 20:30:42 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:26:01 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1055 Lines: 35 At 7:55 pm +0100 5/6/98, wrote: >In a message dated 04/06/98 20:44:45, you write: > >> > From: >> > > >> > > Hmmm... fat, balding guy who enigmatically knows the truth of all >> things... >> > > think it's already been done. >> > >> > ???? >> >> Ever hear of a minor cult called Buddism? >> (And I can't spell either... but i'm quite sure I'm not Bob!) >> >> >I hardly think one of the worlds top 5 religions could be called a minor cult. > >Bill. Error -87649 sarcasm detection failure at line 12 [R]etry or [E]xit? Andrew -- +----------------+-----------------------------+----------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | Talk sense | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk/ | to a fool | +----------------+-----------------------------+ and he calls | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | you foolish | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | -- Euripides | +----------------------------------------------+----------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 21:44:19 1998 Message-ID: <357857E3.A4C7ADD5@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 21:41:07 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: FRODE - READ References: <95aa4a37.35783f30@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1014 Lines: 32 BillRitman@aol.com wrote: > > Can we please get rid of Bill Ritman and Bob Brenchley immediately. Like > now. > > On what grounds? Er. Eh?! I listed them all right below! > > No, don't sit there and do nothing - do it now. We are all sick and tired > of > > him, we are all sick of his abuse, sick of his childish fighting, and I'm > > sick > > of getting abusive emails, full of insults from him, such as "stupid, > > ignorant > > little cunt" and I'm also sick of hearing about other people getting > abusive > > email from him, also full of insults about various people on this list, > > including me being called "that anal retentive > arsehole Gavin". YOU ARE > > MEANT > > TO BE THE LIST MANAGER - MANAGE THE BLOODY THING! We're here to talk about > > the > > SAM, if you won't let that happen, another list will appear pretty damn > soon. > So, if the list doen't fit in with you....... Yes, I get the idea. No, not at all, which is why my next line was... > > Everyone else agree? Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 22:10:02 1998 From: Nev Young To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAM Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 21:05:42 GMT Organization: nfy53 Message-ID: <35785d53.955135@post.demon.co.uk> References: <199806042307.AAA30744@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <199806042307.AAA30744@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 787 Lines: 22 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:07:27 +0100, "Paul Walker" wrote: > > writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial software companies > > sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. > > A more relevant question would be, did the people working for > commercial s/w companies write demos before they got their jobs? > > And, given that we have at least two (probably three) such people on > this list, the answer would appear to be "quite possibly". > I started off writing Maintenance test routines. quite like demo coding I guess. So you can put in the category of demo coder made good :) -- Nev - no longer at nevilley@ndirect.co.uk and getting no spam at all (yet) webpage under construction at www.nfy53.demon.co.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 22:21:59 1998 From: nevilley@nfy53.demon.co.uk (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: The SAM Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 21:13:24 GMT Organization: nfy53 Message-ID: <35795f35.1437988@post.demon.co.uk> References: <4cd61eb7.35783f2f@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <4cd61eb7.35783f2f@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 883 Lines: 22 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:55:42 EDT, wrote: > In a message dated 04/06/98 23:37:33, you write: > > > On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:33 EDT, BillRitman said: > > > > MasterDOS is designed so as to allow extension. It works. > > > Not according to Bob and Nev. It does not allow extension in the way it > > > should. Are you saying they are wrong in making that statement? > > I don't know about MasterBASIC but I have written BASIC extensions which > > work with or without MasterDOS. If you want to assert that it doesn't > > work then the ball is in your court. Let's have some specifics. > I don't have spacifics, I'm only repeating what Bob and Nev posted to this > list. Don't repeat me. It's copyright -- Nev - no longer at nevilley@ndirect.co.uk and getting no spam at all (yet) webpage under construction at www.nfy53.demon.co.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 22:37:30 1998 From: nevilley@nfy53.demon.co.uk (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! but not as big an idiot as Robert!!! Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 21:28:51 GMT Organization: nfy53 Message-ID: <357a6162.1994516@post.demon.co.uk> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 555 Lines: 18 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:40:53 +0100, Ian Dalziel wrote: > In article <000201bd900d$eb1f17e0$0871accf@default>, Simon Cooke > writes > > >I think that Nev's trying to insinuate that someone has cloned him, > > Oh Christ - vision of a row of identical Nevs... Think I'll go and lie > down in a darkened room... > Resistance is futile. You will be assimalated by the Nev. -- Nev - no longer at nevilley@ndirect.co.uk and getting no spam at all (yet) webpage under construction at www.nfy53.demon.co.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 23:02:59 1998 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:57:36 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: FRODE - READ In-Reply-To: <35770CF6.C51FF825@purple.dircon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 588 Lines: 17 In article <35770CF6.C51FF825@purple.dircon.co.uk>, Gavin Smith writes >Can we please get rid of Bill Ritman and Bob Brenchley immediately. >Everyone else agree? > For what it's worth, no I don't. A SAM users list would be massively diminished by the absence of Bob Brenchley. He may have irritated everyone on the list - even me, and I don't irritate easily (Oh all right Bill, I know, he hasn't irritated you, now shaddup) - but if this is to retain any pretence of being for and about the use of the SAM, he has to be part of it. -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 23:13:56 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <363d5550.35786cb8@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:09:59 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: FRODE - READ Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1225 Lines: 46 In a message dated 05/06/98 20:41:47, you write: > BillRitman@aol.com wrote: > > > > Can we please get rid of Bill Ritman and Bob Brenchley immediately. > Like > > now. > > > > On what grounds? > > Er. Eh?! I listed them all right below! You did not. I see no valid reason below. > > > > No, don't sit there and do nothing - do it now. We are all sick and > tired > > of > > > him, we are all sick of his abuse, sick of his childish fighting, and I' > m > > > sick > > > of getting abusive emails, full of insults from him, such as "stupid, > > > ignorant > > > little cunt" and I'm also sick of hearing about other people getting > > abusive > > > email from him, also full of insults about various people on this list, > > > including me being called "that anal retentive > arsehole Gavin". YOU > ARE > > > MEANT > > > TO BE THE LIST MANAGER - MANAGE THE BLOODY THING! We're here to talk > about > > > the > > > SAM, if you won't let that happen, another list will appear pretty damn > > soon. > > > So, if the list doen't fit in with you....... Yes, I get the idea. > > No, not at all, which is why my next line was... > > > > Everyone else agree? > > Gavin Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Fri Jun 5 23:21:50 1998 From: nevilley@nfy53.demon.co.uk (Nev Young) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Formidable Ale and Scousers. Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:14:58 GMT Organization: nfy53 Message-ID: <357b6c2f.4760433@post.demon.co.uk> References: <8025661A.0032B727.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <8025661A.0032B727.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 681 Lines: 22 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:18:06 +0100, Justin_Skists@case.co.uk wrote: > >the best bitter in the world is Okells - the Isle of Man's finest... > > > Never tried that.. > > Hobgoblin, Spitfire, Old Devil, Old Speckled Hen, Fuller's > Vintage (8.5% - Nice!).... :) > There's nowt much wrong wi Morehouse's Pendle Witch except it don't travel too well. They did a nice bottled beer for, IIRC, their centenery a nice 10%. If you're ever in t'Burnley area try and get on one of their guided tours. Only 4 quid and that includes three pints. :-)))))) -- Nev - no longer at nevilley@ndirect.co.uk and getting no spam at all (yet) webpage under construction at www.nfy53.demon.co.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 00:16:57 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 23:07:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FRODE - READ In-reply-to: References: <35770CF6.C51FF825@purple.dircon.co.uk> Message-Id: <19980605231423Z49386-9261+487@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 860 Lines: 29 > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:57:36 +0100 > To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no > From: Ian Dalziel > In article <35770CF6.C51FF825@purple.dircon.co.uk>, Gavin Smith > writes > >Can we please get rid of Bill Ritman and Bob Brenchley immediately. > > >Everyone else agree? > > > > For what it's worth, no I don't. A SAM users list would be massively > diminished by the absence of Bob Brenchley. > > He may have irritated everyone on the list - even me, and I don't > irritate easily (Oh all right Bill, I know, he hasn't irritated you, now > shaddup) - but if this is to retain any pretence of being for and about > the use of the SAM, he has to be part of it. > > -- > Ian Dalziel Ian, I for one want to see Bob stay on the list, as hard as it is to believe! :) David From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 00:50:17 1998 Message-Id: <199806052337.AAA10079@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:37:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1307 Lines: 28 > I don't think it is just Windows, I think it is the whole system. There is > just too much hanging together to keep things going these days. That is why I > like my Sam so much, I can cope with it. eh? for what it's worth, i've lost more files on my Sam (in the days when i was using it, that is) than ever on a PC. ok, so i've lost some email on my PC (but just ONCE: and that was due to faulty cache ram, for which the remedy suggested by the repair engineer was 'backup everything and reformat the hard drive'. of course, i didn't know it was faulty ram at that point, so i went along with him - let's face it, neither of us knew what was wrong with the machine. i had to go to microsoft themselves and point out the problem i was having with the 'technical support' of (ahem) Atlantic Systems Ltd. they HELPED me. i like microsoft now. i think they're nice to me.) but it wasn't important email. and it was ONLY email. on my Sam i've lost loads and loads of work-in-progress files for stuff that will never, ever see the light. of course, if i'd had a hard drive, or maybe if i'd used a slightly less-cheap brand of floppy disks, i would never have lost oh-so-many critical files, and i'd be the righteous king of sam software. something, anyway. i had such big plans ... dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 00:50:17 1998 Message-Id: <199806052339.AAA10257@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:39:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <0025661A.0050BDCE.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 459 Lines: 12 > Visual C++ uses all these concepts, although, I've never used it so I can't > comment on how good it is. as an optimising compiler, it's meant to be pretty darn spangly. i've used version 1.42 though, and it wasn't great. (erk) but i've tinkered with v5, and was generally pleased. as an environment, it's not *great* but it'll do. and i've got microsoft visual studio pro waiting for me at home down south. that'll cheer me up after these exams. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 00:50:18 1998 Message-Id: <199806052345.AAA10499@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:45:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: <0025661A.005C0493.00@mail.atlan-tech.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1174 Lines: 39 > in C++, you can, very usefully initialise variables in the for loop > ie > > for(int i=0;i { > //blah > } > > The integer 'i' goes out of scope when the for-loop terminates. we...lll...... not quite. at least, not until recently, as i remember it. c++ spec got changed (probably many times) along its way to complete evolutionary enlightenment. a lot of c++ compilers will actually treat this as: int i=0; for {; i From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:49:47 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: SimCoupe In-reply-to: <199806051747.SAA14860@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> References: <199806050135.CAA15008@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 543 Lines: 22 > Fresh install. Never been installed before. I do read the README > files, y'know. :) hmmm. hokay, well try the latest versions of djgpp, etc. (i guess they're maybe alpha versions or something) i think it's something like sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk/Mirrors/simtel.coast.net/SimTel/vendors/djgpp/v2 /alphas/980101/djdev202.zip and associated latest versions of gcc, make, etc djgpp/v2gnu/gcc281b.zip djgpp/v2gnu/mak3761b.zip as these are what i'm using and mine compiles (but doesn't work once compiled) failing that - yeh, yr chip. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 01:22:26 1998 From: PGLOVER43 Message-ID: <544d4d65.3578895f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:12:14 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Formidable Ale and Scousers. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 171 Lines: 5 You'e all wrong! the best beer is Bathams Bitter, from Brierley Hill in the Black Country, just outside beautiful Birmingham. (Or am I being too subjective?) Phil Glover From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 01:22:32 1998 From: PGLOVER43 Message-ID: <3086c565.3578895f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:12:14 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Buddha Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 718 Lines: 21 In a message dated 04/06/98 21:44:45 BST, persona@mail.clara.net writes: << > From: > > > > Hmmm... fat, balding guy who enigmatically knows the truth of all things... > > think it's already been done. > > ???? > Ever hear of a minor cult called Buddism? >(And I can't spell either... but i'm quite sure I'm not Bob!) Although Buddha (Siddhartha Gotama, Prince of the Sakyas, born Nepal area in 563 BC) and Bob may have physical similarities, Buddha literally was an enlightened one, and never claimed to be a God. (I'm sure Buddha was popular with many he met, and didn't get into arguments easily - Oops! I do hope I haven't started something here.) - Phil Glover From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 01:22:33 1998 From: PGLOVER43 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:12:15 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: SAM screensavers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 261 Lines: 6 Is there any SAM screensave software? It'd be nice to be able to 'snap' SAM screens from within a game, convert them to .BMP files, or whatever, so we can show them to other PC users so they can see what SAM is capable of without using Simcoupe. - Phil Glover From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 01:22:34 1998 Message-Id: <199806060017.BAA11829@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:16:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Formidable Ale and Scousers. In-reply-to: <544d4d65.3578895f@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 273 Lines: 9 > You'e all wrong! the best beer is Bathams Bitter, from Brierley Hill in the > Black Country, just outside beautiful Birmingham. (Or am I being too > subjective?) no. you're just alliterating too much. ;) orkney dark island. not particularly strong, but v. tasty. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 01:33:18 1998 Message-Id: <199806060022.BAA11997@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:22:12 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SAM screensavers In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1026 Lines: 23 > Is there any SAM screensave software? It'd be nice to be able to 'snap' SAM > screens from within a game, convert them to .BMP files, or whatever, so we can > show them to other PC users so they can see what SAM is capable of without > using Simcoupe. i doubt it. the software would have to much about with (presumably) the nmi vector, and yet also rely on the other software (the thing you're running, be it a game or a, er, other game, that you want a screenshot of) NOT rewriting the nmi vector. and also not overwriting the area of memory the screen-grabbing utility is in. slim, to none. but it sounds importantly useful, and so i'd be suprised if no-one had had a go at writing one. the only utility i remember writing for the sam, that mucked around with vectors, was one where you could press CTRL+SHIT+DELETE and get the sam to reset. bit of a pointless utility though, since, once the sam had reset, you had to reload the utility again... should always have been in the rom, that one, i reckon. dave From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 01:33:19 1998 From: PGLOVER43 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:26:05 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Formidable Ale and Scousers. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 394 Lines: 8 I reckon it's a myth about beers not travelling well. I've tried the aforementioned Orkney Dark Island in the Midlands in perfect condition and Bass in Penzance in similar condition. If it leaves the brewery in good form, with good transport, it should be good at the receiving end, unless the landlord is unskilled/doesn't clean his pipes, etc. (Hmm... hardly SAM related.... ) - Phil Glover From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 01:41:44 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:31:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SAM screensavers In-reply-to: <199806060022.BAA11997@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> References: Message-Id: <19980606003804Z49386-9261+501@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 622 Lines: 17 > From: "Dave Hooper" <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> > > Is there any SAM screensave software? It'd be nice to be able to 'snap' SAM > > screens from within a game, convert them to .BMP files, or whatever, so we can > > show them to other PC users so they can see what SAM is capable of without > > using Simcoupe. > > i doubt it. the software would have to much about with (presumably) > the nmi vector, and yet also rely on the other software (the thing > you're running, be it a game or a, er, other game, that you want a [Snip!] Wrong ;) I think he means to display screens on the PC actually ;) David From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 02:13:00 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980606003804Z49386-9261+501@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> References: <199806060022.BAA11997@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 02:09:19 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: SAM screensavers X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2884 Lines: 65 At 1:31 am +0100 6/6/98, David Ledbury at wrote: >> From: "Dave Hooper" <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> > >> > Is there any SAM screensave software? It'd be nice to be able to >>'snap' SAM >> > screens from within a game, convert them to .BMP files, or whatever, >>so we can >> > show them to other PC users so they can see what SAM is capable of without >> > using Simcoupe. >> >> i doubt it. the software would have to much about with (presumably) >> the nmi vector, and yet also rely on the other software (the thing >> you're running, be it a game or a, er, other game, that you want a > >[Snip!] > >Wrong ;) I think he means to display screens on the PC actually ;) I don't actually.... I think he wants to 'snap' SAM screens from within whatever generic piece of software, and then save them out to disk in a form that a PC would be able to understand. Unfortunately, you would either need to design a hardware solution (such as the MultiROM, which I believe had a feature much as you describe. Am I right, Simon or Martin?) or have to rely on cooperative software. Games or demos (or nearly anything else, in fact) will page out ROM 0, and replace it with a memory page which may or may not contain routines to handle the NMI. It might, for example: - not care about NMI at all. In which case, when you press the button you will jump to a random point in the middle of a random routine, and probably crash. - properly ignore NMI. Given a RETN instruction at the right place, you should hopefully see that nothing happens when you press break - Some programs will do something useful when you press NMI, for example begin a secret mode. - a few programs will page ROM 0 back in, and jump to the ROM's NMI routines. This is the only case where the NMI vector is even called, and you still have to rely on your patch routine not being overwritten. As well as all that, assuming your routine even runs in the first place, you proably won't be able to find out what palette colours were being used at the time. You can't read from the CLUT ports, only write to them - and very, very few programs will bother to keep the ROM's tables up to date. Of course, the game will probably have a table for its own use somewhere in memory, but without hacking into a disassembly you'd never be able to find out where. So, all in all, I'm afraid you'll need to find a different way to capture screenshots. Andrew -- +----------------+-----------------------------+----------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | Talk sense | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk/ | to a fool | +----------------+-----------------------------+ and he calls | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | you foolish | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | -- Euripides | +----------------------------------------------+----------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 02:32:42 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:20:01 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SAM screensavers In-reply-to: References: <19980606003804Z49386-9261+501@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> Message-Id: <19980606012637Z49386-9261+512@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1024 Lines: 31 > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 02:09:19 +0100 > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > From: Andrew Collier > >> i doubt it. the software would have to much about with (presumably) > >> the nmi vector, and yet also rely on the other software (the thing > >> you're running, be it a game or a, er, other game, that you want a > > > >[Snip!] > > > >Wrong ;) I think he means to display screens on the PC actually ;) > > I don't actually.... I think he wants to 'snap' SAM screens from within > whatever generic piece of software, and then save them out to disk in a > form that a PC would be able to understand. Whoops! I am silly! (well, it is late ;) [snip very interesting discription of things beyond my ken ;)] > So, all in all, I'm afraid you'll need to find a different way to capture > screenshots. > > Andrew Yeah, the Multirom would do the job - but would need to involve arsing around with colours. However, a similar effect could be done using the SRAM board I think? David From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 02:32:42 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: SAM screensavers Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 21:20:16 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bd90e9$43865a20$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <199806060022.BAA11997@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 867 Lines: 23 > > Is there any SAM screensave software? It'd be nice to be able > to 'snap' SAM > > screens from within a game, convert them to .BMP files, or > whatever, so we can > > show them to other PC users so they can see what SAM is capable > of without > > using Simcoupe. > > i doubt it. the software would have to much about with (presumably) > the nmi vector, and yet also rely on the other software (the thing > you're running, be it a game or a, er, other game, that you want a > screenshot of) NOT rewriting the nmi vector. and also not overwriting > the area of memory the screen-grabbing utility is in. > > slim, to none. None is probably more accurate. BTW: all of the screenshots on my webpages were taken using the MultiROM, and with a lot of pain, heartache, and messing around trying to come up with a way of reading the palette back out of the SAM. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 02:32:44 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: SAM screensavers Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 21:24:47 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd90e9$e4b9bf40$c026accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2141 Lines: 52 > I don't actually.... I think he wants to 'snap' SAM screens from within > whatever generic piece of software, and then save them out to disk in a > form that a PC would be able to understand. Well, the SAM to BMP converter I wrote will work if you don't use it for Mode 3 screens (never did get around to that one -- MS's docs are incorrect). It'll convert everything else without breaking stride. (See last issue of Your Sinclair for examples of screenshots taken using it). However, getting hold of a copy may be... inconvenient. > Unfortunately, you would either need to design a hardware > solution (such as > the MultiROM, which I believe had a feature much as you describe. Am I > right, Simon or Martin?) or have to rely on cooperative software. Yep, that's correct. It paged its ROM in, and copied the screen out to the 1Mb, which you then accessed using SAMDOS and a routine I wrote to read it back out. > As well as all that, assuming your routine even runs in the first place, > you proably won't be able to find out what palette colours were being used > at the time. You can't read from the CLUT ports, only write to them - and > very, very few programs will bother to keep the ROM's tables up > to date. Of > course, the game will probably have a table for its own use somewhere in > memory, but without hacking into a disassembly you'd never be able to find > out where. Kind of nasty, but here's how I did it: First of all, when snapping, hold down CNTRL at the same time you press reset (IIRC). Then use the cursors to chose which colour from the palette you can guarantee that you know what it is. This colour is put in the border when choosing, and is the one that you modify to do everything else. Then, it paints a colour bar across the screen. One colour at a time (apart from the one you chose at the start), you move through the palette, matching the border colour to the screen colours by flipping R G B and halfbright bits on and off. When finished, hit another key, and it's saved out. Hey presto. Nasty, eh? Sim Coupe's probably the best way to grab them -- you even get the raster effects. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 02:43:58 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000201bd90e9$e4b9bf40$c026accf@default> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 02:42:03 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: RE: SAM screensavers X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 833 Lines: 25 At 2:24 am +0100 6/6/98, Simon Cooke wrote: >Kind of nasty, but here's how I did it: [blah] >Nasty, eh? Absolutely! But very novel.... :) >Sim Coupe's probably the best way to grab them -- you even get the raster >effects. Now that's a point. Half the things you're likely to want to grab aren't going to literally exist in one page of memory anyway.... Andrew -- +----------------+-----------------------------+----------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | Talk sense | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk/ | to a fool | +----------------+-----------------------------+ and he calls | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | you foolish | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | -- Euripides | +----------------------------------------------+----------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 02:50:22 1998 Message-ID: <35789FC3.21CD0FDC@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 02:47:47 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: FRODE - READ References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 861 Lines: 21 Ian Dalziel wrote: > For what it's worth, no I don't. A SAM users list would be massively > diminished by the absence of Bob Brenchley. > > He may have irritated everyone on the list - even me, and I don't > irritate easily (Oh all right Bill, I know, he hasn't irritated you, now > shaddup) - but if this is to retain any pretence of being for and about > the use of the SAM, he has to be part of it. > > -- > Ian Dalziel You're right. I apologise. I got carried away. I've said many times in the past that I think Bob should be here, standing on his own two feet, without hiding behind false names. I do know this - whoever is posting under the name Bill Ritman is being deliberately abusive, deliberately disruptive, and I know of countless people who have got abusive email, some of it actually quite disturbing. That's why I think he should go. Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 02:52:53 1998 Message-ID: <3578A077.79732723@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 02:50:47 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Buddha References: <3086c565.3578895f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 587 Lines: 15 PGLOVER43@aol.com wrote: > Although Buddha (Siddhartha Gotama, Prince of the Sakyas, born Nepal area in > 563 BC) and Bob may have physical similarities, Buddha literally was an > enlightened one, and never claimed to be a God. (I'm sure Buddha was popular > with many he met, and didn't get into arguments easily - Oops! I do hope I > haven't started something here.) > > - Phil Glover ROFL! Sorry, but that was one of the funniest things I've read in a long time :) Thanks for cheering me up Phil ;) (I needed cheering up - I'm only after formatting my f*cking hard drive). Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 08:02:47 1998 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 07:54:59 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no From: Ian Dalziel Subject: Re: SAM screensavers In-Reply-To: <199806060022.BAA11997@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.04 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 190 Lines: 8 In article <199806060022.BAA11997@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk>, Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> writes >press CTRL+SHIT+DELETE and get Magic! I want that one for my PC -- Ian Dalziel From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 10:19:16 1998 From: PGLOVER43 Message-ID: <1cf30784.357907d9@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 05:11:52 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: SAM screensavers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 999 Lines: 27 In a message dated 06/06/98 01:33:53 BST, you write: << Subj: Re: SAM screensavers Date: 06/06/98 01:33:53 BST From: 9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK (Dave Hooper) Sender: owner-sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-to: sam-users@nvg.unit.no To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Is there any SAM screensave software? It'd be nice to be able to 'snap' SAM > screens from within a game, convert them to .BMP files, or whatever, so we can > show them to other PC users so they can see what SAM is capable of without > using Simcoupe. the only utility i remember writing for the sam, that mucked around with vectors, was one where you could press CTRL+SHIT+DELETE and get the sam to reset. bit of a pointless utility though, since, once the sam had reset, you had to reload the utility again... should always have been in the rom, that one, i reckon. dave - Dave, I hope that's a typing error, in the CTRL+ bit of the above paragraph. I won't be trying it until I hear clarification... Phil Glover. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 10:19:16 1998 From: PGLOVER43 Message-ID: <8d48c784.357908d1@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 05:16:00 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: MultiROM Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 168 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 332 Lines: 8 I remember reading about the MultiROM a long time ago. What actually is it? Is it still available? How much? etc. I use a SAMbus with my first SAM, but my second SAM is the one I've tinkered with (disk protector added, etc.) I may consider trying a MultiROM with that one, if it's any good. More information anyone? - Phil Glover From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 11:13:05 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:11:37 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SAM screensavers In-reply-to: References: <199806060022.BAA11997@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <3C18B6E41B5@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 95 Lines: 5 > >press CTRL+SHIT+DELETE and get I can't say I've used that combination many times :) MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 11:27:07 1998 From: Matthew Craven Organization: Umist To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:23:47 BST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Not a lot to do with SAM In-reply-to: References: <39FEAA21627@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <3C1BEDB2273@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 303 Lines: 17 > char *trunc(char *s) > { > int i; > i=strlen(s); > while (isspace(s[--i])){}; > s[i+1] = 0; > return s; > } > > then it should be preceeded by the prototype > > char *trunc(char *s); OK - I've done that and put the #include in, but it still reports "Identifier expected". MJC. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 11:39:24 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ILGW@C&L NL @ C&L INT @ C&L INT EXTERNAL@OUTBOUND @INTERLIANT From: Stefan Drissen To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Message-ID: <8625661B.003A45F0.00@internet-502.interliant.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:31:29 +0200 Subject: RE: SAM screensavers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1644 Lines: 46 Simon Cooke wrote: >> As well as all that, assuming your routine even runs in the first place, >> you proably won't be able to find out what palette colours were being used >> at the time. You can't read from the CLUT ports, only write to them - and >> very, very few programs will bother to keep the ROM's tables up >> to date. Of >> course, the game will probably have a table for its own use somewhere in >> memory, but without hacking into a disassembly you'd never be able to find >> out where. > >Kind of nasty, but here's how I did it: What ever happened to the idea of writing a routine to search through the code for the bit that dumps the data to the CLUT, pretty much in the same vein as the Genie Lifesaver? Stefan -- **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 11:39:41 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ILGW@C&L NL @ C&L INT @ C&L INT EXTERNAL@OUTBOUND @INTERLIANT From: Stefan Drissen To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Message-ID: <8625661B.003A4667.00@internet-502.interliant.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:16:56 +0200 Subject: RE: Where have all our demo coders gone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1571 Lines: 43 Paul Walker wrote: >> I wish I could remember the other demo coders who now have incredibly good >> jobs because of it. I think Colin McD is keeping at least some kind of track >> of where the SAM people are going. > >DMZ did, I'm fairly sure; Stefan doesn't count, since he's an >accountant (with a very out of date website! STEFAN! wakeup!). Can't >remember any others, but I'm sure there's a couple. That's an auditor to you matey! I am actually awake, although to be able to amend the website I have to go to my parents' place. Despite that, the website does actually represent the state of my SAM activities... oops, has it been that long. Stefan -- **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 14:17:06 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 13:08:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: MultiROM In-reply-to: <8d48c784.357908d1@aol.com> Message-Id: <19980606131449Z49241-9261+601@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1205 Lines: 34 > From: > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 05:16:00 EDT > To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Subject: MultiROM > Reply-to: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 98 14:04:25 BST > I remember reading about the MultiROM a long time ago. What actually is it? Is > it still available? How much? etc. It is an interface - designed by Simon and Martin (with a couple of suggestions or two from me actually... nothing wrong with blowing your own ;) which would allow up to ... was it 8 Mb? of Rom based software to be switched into place under control. I think the working version had about 128K of Rom. It isn't available... as it was built as a working protype, but due to Martins move... Simons lack of time, and lack of interest... wasn't taken further. It did have ProDos and some very nice utilities built into it however, and worked very well. > I use a SAMbus with my first SAM, but my second SAM is the one I've tinkered > with (disk protector added, etc.) I may consider trying a MultiROM with that > one, if it's any good. More information anyone? The cloeses you'll get is Uncle Blobby's SRAM thingy, > - Phil Glover > > David From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 15:23:59 1998 Message-Id: <199806061421.QAA23118@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:17:34 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1660 Lines: 38 > Van: Robert van der Veeke > Aan: Sam users > Onderwerp: Bob is a Idiot!!!!!!! > Datum: Sunday, May 31, 1998 12:56 > > So there, i have said it. That was quite a week we have behind us. I called Bob a Idot. I ask Bob about his name-calling in public towards Mark, and told the list that I took Bob and Bill out of my kill-filter. And what do we get, a full-scale flame war between the list on one side (not counting the lurkers) and just two people on the other side, of wich one pulls out later in the week because he is setting up a LAN in his office and taking a few days off. That leaves me with a few questions towards Bill (hey i am not even talking about ones for Bob anymore). We have now seven days behind us and you still refuse to give us a explanation of who you are, each passing day will make you more unbelievable. It would have made me the complete idiot if you had responded in with the right answer the very first day. But still not a single answer. It is rather strange, but I give you a chance to prove me wrong but you did not take it. And I find it hard to believe that I will take more than seven days to come with the proof who you are. Instead you came up with more insults and smokescreens trying to avoid to answer that question (BTW: looks much like Bob's tactics to me). As for this reply "I have done, and the shit will hit the fan if the low-life pulls a stunt like that again.", well better start calling me a low-life then. -- Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Mind you if we call you "Bruce", it might otherwise cause some confusion. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 15:37:40 1998 Message-Id: <199806061435.QAA25130@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: How dare you repost a private email. Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:38:10 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1679 Lines: 33 > Van: Simon Cooke > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: RE: How dare you repost a private email. > Datum: Friday, June 05, 1998 4:29 > Robert, would you like to rephrase that as "what the SAM was yesterday?" For Martijn and me it still is today's Sam, we still drag our sam's every two weeks to a local club-meeting in "Den Haag" (Stefan you should come again, just once please :) and having a good time, a bit coding, making graphics and a bit of showing off to the other users who don't code or program but complain about the facts that they can't get their hardware and software working or installed. As for yesterday (4th of june), Martijn and I visited the local computer club in Maassluis* (the place where i live). and then to hear "Can't be a spectrum. those had a black casing and rubber keys, It ain't a Amiga, what hell is it?". than the questions come and we are more than happy to answer them. Showing the Sam makes my day perfect -- Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Mind you if we call you "Bruce", it might otherwise cause some confusion. *This was a club that visited often until about 8 years ago, great time, it was being held in something similiar like the Village Hall (except this one is around the corner for me). Evenings started around 19.30 and lasted well into to night, lucky I did not have to crawl far when I returned to my house. Later it turned more into a copy-club and after a raid by the police they stopped it for a while. Now they have restarted it and it looks a bit like the old days again. People actually doing something with their computers instead of just collecting software. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 15:47:08 1998 Message-Id: <199806061442.PAA20684@renko.ucs.ed.ac.uk> From: Dave Hooper <9531427@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Organization: stripwax paranoia consultants To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:42:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SAM screensavers In-reply-to: <1cf30784.357907d9@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 444 Lines: 15 > with vectors, was one where you could press CTRL+SHIT+DELETE and get > > - Dave, I hope that's a typing error, in the CTRL+ bit of the above > paragraph. I won't be trying it until I hear clarification... > Phil Glover. i didn't, did i? that's the first genuinely funny typing error i think i've seen in a long while! dave ps, today's exams went bad. communications, uggh. operating systems, hmmmm.... we'll see... From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 18:56:43 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: SAM screensavers Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 17:50:31 GMT Message-ID: <35798023.2752776@mail.enterprise.net> References: <000201bd90e9$e4b9bf40$c026accf@default> In-Reply-To: <000201bd90e9$e4b9bf40$c026accf@default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 482 Lines: 17 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 21:24:47 -0400, Simon Cooke wrote: > >Sim Coupe's probably the best way to grab them -- you even get the raster >effects. I don't remember that being documented, but yes it works, provided that you use the F5 thingy to change the screen before pressing 'Print Screen'. I only found out about that today, and I've been snapping away like some half crazed SAM screen fiend. :-) Bye, _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 19:58:04 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <9bbdf170.357990a5@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 14:55:32 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The SAM Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 472 Lines: 16 In a message dated 05/06/98 08:14:56, you write: > >Now you are getting confused. Developing techniques has little to do with > >writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial software > companies > >sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. > > > Ah. That's where you're _completely_ wrong.... :p > > DMZ You obviously know something about the subject. I would be interested to hear what you have to say. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 20:08:58 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: <6f2861ab.3579928e@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:03:41 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1398 Lines: 35 In a message dated 06/06/98 14:22:24, you write: > > That leaves me with a few questions towards Bill (hey i am not even talking > about ones for Bob anymore). > > We have now seven days behind us and you still refuse to give us a > explanation of who you are, each passing day will make you more > unbelievable. It would have made me the complete idiot if you had responded > in with the right answer the very first day. But still not a single answer. My name is Bill. That is enough for you. > It is rather strange, but I give you a chance to prove me wrong but you did > not take it. And I find it hard to believe that I will take more than seven > days to come with the proof who you are. Instead you came up with more > insults and smokescreens trying to avoid to answer that question (BTW: > looks much like Bob's tactics to me). I'm still waiting for the apology you own me for re-posting a private email to this list. > > As for this reply "I have done, and the shit will hit the fan if the > low-life pulls a stunt like that again.", well better start calling me a > low-life then. > You know what you are, you know how far you have overstepped the mark. Now apologise. I'm not going to let you forget this you know, it will be coming back to haunt you at regular intervals until you post a formal apology for you stupid behaviour. Come on. I'm waiting. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 20:57:28 1998 Message-Id: <199806061947.VAA19059@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 21:42:41 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1462 Lines: 42 > Van: BillRitman@aol.com > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! > Datum: Saturday, June 06, 1998 9:03 > > In a message dated 06/06/98 14:22:24, you write: > > > > > That leaves me with a few questions towards Bill (hey i am not even talking > > about ones for Bob anymore). > > > > We have now seven days behind us and you still refuse to give us a > > explanation of who you are, each passing day will make you more > > unbelievable. It would have made me the complete idiot if you had responded > > in with the right answer the very first day. But still not a single answer. > > My name is Bill. That is enough for you. Once again I gave you the chance to make me a look like complete idiot, and still you do not or will not take it. Only after that you will get my apology, i want some proof Dammit. I am not intrested in you silly word games. For me you are still Bob until you show me and the list that I am wrong. > You know what you are, you know how far you have overstepped the mark. Now > apologise. > > I'm not going to let you forget this you know, it will be coming back to haunt > you at regular intervals until you post a formal apology for you stupid > behaviour. Come on. I'm waiting. As i wrote before "And on that day Satan will be skating to his work". -- Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Mind you if we call you "Bruce", it might otherwise cause some confusion. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 20:57:28 1998 Message-Id: <199806061947.VAA19058@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: The SAM Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 21:49:16 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 845 Lines: 33 ---------- > Van: BillRitman@aol.com > Aan: sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: The SAM > Datum: Saturday, June 06, 1998 8:55 > > In a message dated 05/06/98 08:14:56, you write: > > > >Now you are getting confused. Developing techniques has little to do with > > >writing demos has it. Do the people working for commercial software > > companies > > >sit around all day writing demos that serve no useful perpose? I doubt it. > > > > > > Ah. That's where you're _completely_ wrong.... :p > > > > DMZ > > You obviously know something about the subject. I would be interested to hear > what you have to say. No you should answer the question, show him why you think you are right. go on. -- Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Mind you if we call you "Bruce", it might otherwise cause some confusion. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 22:13:25 1998 Message-Id: <199806062101.WAA30745@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 22:01:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! In-reply-to: <199806061947.VAA19059@mailserv.caiw.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 495 Lines: 13 > Once again I gave you the chance to make me a look like complete idiot, and > still you do not or will not take it. Only after that you will get my > apology, i want some proof Dammit. I am not intrested in you silly word Robert, we don't want or care about the apology. This is boring. Take it elsewhere. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 22:13:25 1998 Message-ID: <3579AF30.452FD251@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 22:05:52 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! References: <199806062101.WAA30745@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 286 Lines: 10 Paul Walker wrote: > Robert, we don't want or care about the apology. This is boring. Take > it elsewhere. The only thing that is boring is the never ending crap I get from Bill Ritman in my inbox every day. Bill is the source of it - Robert I know how you feel, I really do. Gavin From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 22:39:08 1998 Message-Id: <199806062131.WAA00851@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 22:31:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! In-reply-to: <3579AF30.452FD251@purple.dircon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 639 Lines: 17 > The only thing that is boring is the never ending crap I get from Bill Ritman in > my inbox every day. Bill is the source of it - Robert I know how you feel, I I'm sure you do, but if it bothers you that much, auto-bounce it. Solved. Think about it. Bob's been gone for a whole week, and what's happened on the list? People have bitched and whined about this and that, snapped at each other, a few minor squabbles; very little SAM related stuff. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 22:55:39 1998 Message-ID: <3579BA25.64D71469@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 22:52:37 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! References: <199806062131.WAA00851@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 733 Lines: 18 Paul Walker wrote: > I'm sure you do, but if it bothers you that much, auto-bounce it. > Solved. And have him talk crap about me without my knowing? No thanks mate :) Wait till you get abusive private mail, and you will know what we are talking about :) > Think about it. Bob's been gone for a whole week, and what's happened > on the list? People have bitched and whined about this and that, > snapped at each other, a few minor squabbles; very little SAM related > stuff. Well, I think you'll find that most of the above is Bill Ritman related, so I would hardly say Bob's been gone for a week ;) Anyway, the rest of us probably aren't used to a list where we actually talk about the SAM anymore :) Gavin (must fix my sig...) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 23:02:01 1998 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 17:55:07 -0400 From: Gordon Wallis <101762.2062@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! To: "INTERNET:sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Message-ID: <199806061755_MC2-3F6B-12EE@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1377 Lines: 30 Message text written by INTERNET:sam-users@nvg.unit.no >I'm not going to let you forget this you know, it will be coming back to haunt you at regular intervals until you post a formal apology for you stupid behaviour. Come on. I'm waiting. Bill. < Bill, you may have noticed on occasion a certain member of this list repeatedly asking another member for certain monies paid for goods to be returned in lieu of said goods. Your situation with Robert strikes me as similar in that I don't think it's going to happen. If you're going to start sending abusive mails to members of the list, tagged as private, you can expect them to post it to the list to show everyone else what sort of character you are. You (and Bob) seem to consider most people on this list to be 'kids', then get all wound up when they act like kids (sorry if this offends any of you 'kids'). If you're such a 'groan-up' (sic.), act like one and just ignore 'em. I care not whether you (or Bob) have lived longer than the rest of us put together. You're only entitled to the respect you earn. Sending people abusive mails is not an action likely to command anyone's respect. Then again, these arguements have no place on this list. We now know your position, we know Robert's position, we know Bob's position. From now on, I'd like all of you to keep all of us other Sam users out of this feud. Thanks. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sat Jun 6 23:11:16 1998 Message-Id: <199806062207.XAA04126@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:07:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! In-reply-to: <3579BA25.64D71469@purple.dircon.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 656 Lines: 18 > And have him talk crap about me without my knowing? No thanks mate :) Wait till > you get abusive private mail, and you will know what we are talking about :) If I get abusive private email, one of several things happens - 1) I email their postmaster, 2) I delete it, 3) they get put into the autobounce list. (3) doesn't *always* happen, but who needs the hassles? > aren't used to a list where we actually talk about the SAM anymore :) True. Should be changed. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 00:42:42 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: SAM screensavers Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:22:43 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bd91a2$01c59f60$b871accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <8625661B.003A45F0.00@internet-502.interliant.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 360 Lines: 11 > What ever happened to the idea of writing a routine to search through the > code for the bit that dumps the data to the CLUT, pretty much in the same > vein as the Genie Lifesaver? Ummm... I considered it, and decided that the inconvenience to the end user (ie, at the time, me) was much less than the inconvenience of writing the search routine ;) Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 00:58:15 1998 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:55:12 +0100 (BST) From: D A Fulton To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: The SAM FPC Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 1409 Lines: 32 This is just a quick question. I've finished my exams, and am getting back into programming the SAM (or at least I will be, once I go back to Cheshire to get it!): I started writing a little utility, for no apparant reason, that worked a bit like MS-DOS, but with SAM disks and I was thinking of finishing it off, and then remembered why I stopped: I'm using the built-in floating point calculator in the ROM to perform a quick calculation on the amount of free space (I think I got the codes to use it from Steve Taylor's tutorial in FRED) and encountered a problem in that, after calling the same function several times, my program stopped with a "Number too big" error. The first few executions are fine, then something goes haywire, with the value becoming more and more inaccurate before the error. I haven't got the code just yet, but I was setting up all the values correctly (as far as I could tell). Am I supposed to pop values off the stack or something afterwards? Or is it just a bug in my ROM 2.0? Any offers? Cheers, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Fulton (D.A.Fulton@durham.ac.uk) Trevelyan College, University of Durham. Web page will be upgraded shortly. Apologies for the fairly antiquated rubbish currently located at www.dur.ac.uk/~d60m3c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 01:37:40 1998 Message-Id: <199806070032.CAA26320@mailserv.caiw.nl> From: Robert van der Veeke To: sam-users Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 02:35:06 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1116 Lines: 25 > Van: Gordon Wallis <101762.2062@compuserve.com> > Aan: INTERNET:sam-users@nvg.unit.no > Onderwerp: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! > Datum: Saturday, June 06, 1998 11:55 > Then again, these arguements have no place on this list. We now know your > position, we know Robert's position, we know Bob's position. From now on, > I'd like all of you to keep all of us other Sam users out of this feud. > I agree with this point of view and from now on I am not going te reply to the postings about THIS subject by mr. Ritman/Brenchley, he still can send his opinion to the list, but i am sticking to mine until he proves me of being wrong (not very likely)(1). So Mr. Ritman/Brenchley you can send what you want to this list. but it is rather pointless. And when I recieve another of your so-called private emails, be sure that it is not abusive because it then will go straight to the AOL abuse department. -- Robert van der Veeke, aka RJV Graphics [rjvveeke@caiw.nl] Mind you if we call you "Bruce", it might otherwise cause some confusion. (1) And if you have proof that I am wrong than post that to this list. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 13:28:23 1998 From: davewhitmore@enterprise.net (Dave) To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 12:08:21 GMT Message-ID: <357c9e95.10548283@mail.enterprise.net> References: <6f2861ab.3579928e@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <6f2861ab.3579928e@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 512 Lines: 20 On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:03:41 EDT, wrote: >I'm not going to let you forget this you know, it will be coming back to haunt >you at regular intervals until you post a formal apology for you stupid >behaviour. Come on. I'm waiting. > >Bill. Awww shut up Bill. This is so boring. Okay, so you were a bit narked because someone reposted an email , but there's no need to moan about it until the end of time. Bye, _ |_)ave (/\)hitmore http://homepages.enterprise.net/davewhitmore/ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 15:44:10 1998 From: Chris White To: sam-users Subject: Another Mailing List Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:36:48 +0100 Message-ID: <01bd9221$b3de2c60$44eeb094@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 87 Lines: 7 For all those that wish to create own mailing list http://www.makelist.com/ Chris From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 18:34:54 1998 From: Nev Young To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 17:19:17 GMT Organization: nfy53 Message-ID: <357a89da.1070866@post.demon.co.uk> References: <199806062131.WAA00851@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> <3579BA25.64D71469@purple.dircon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3579BA25.64D71469@purple.dircon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 783 Lines: 24 On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 22:52:37 +0100, Gavin Smith wrote: > Paul Walker wrote: > > > I'm sure you do, but if it bothers you that much, auto-bounce it. > > Solved. > > And have him talk crap about me without my knowing? No thanks mate :) Wait till > you get abusive private mail, and you will know what we are talking about :) > If you are receiving abusive email I would suggest that you make complaits to his ISP. Some of them AOL included take a very dim view of abuse using their services. If you suspect the headers are mugged then that is no problem as the ISP can trace the originator from the email id. hth -- Nev - no longer at nevilley@ndirect.co.uk and getting no spam at all (yet) webpage under construction at www.nfy53.demon.co.uk From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 19:51:29 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:48:48 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 592 Lines: 22 In a message dated 06/06/98 21:13:05, you write: > Paul Walker wrote: > > > Robert, we don't want or care about the apology. This is boring. Take > > it elsewhere. > > The only thing that is boring is the never ending crap I get from Bill > Ritman in > my inbox every day. Bill is the source of it - Robert I know how you feel, I > really do. > > Gavin I took things to private email remember, I was not the one that reposted that private email to this list. Now, I'm still waiting for an apology. If you want this to go away Gavin, tell the guy to post the apology. Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 20:05:48 1998 From: BillRitman Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:58:16 EDT To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 178 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2024 Lines: 44 In a message dated 06/06/98 22:05:32, you write: > > Bill, you may have noticed on occasion a certain member of this list > repeatedly asking another member for certain monies paid for goods to be > returned in lieu of said goods. Your situation with Robert strikes me as > similar in that I don't think it's going to happen. That is nothing to do with me now is it? > > If you're going to start sending abusive mails to members of the list, > tagged as private, you can expect them to post it to the list to show > everyone else what sort of character you are. You (and Bob) seem to > consider most people on this list to be 'kids', then get all wound up when > they act like kids (sorry if this offends any of you 'kids'). If you're > such a 'groan-up' (sic.), act like one and just ignore 'em. Crap. Total crap. If I post an email to anyone it should stay private unless I say otherwise. Robert did wrong, he knows it, and in the end he will either apologise for it or be ignored by anyone with any standards. And I intend to bring his actions to the attention of any new member of this list so that they will be warned not to have anything to do with him. > > I care not whether you (or Bob) have lived longer than the rest of us put > together. You're only entitled to the respect you earn. Sending people > abusive mails is not an action likely to command anyone's respect. I sent an abusive email to him to counter the abusive email he sent to the list. Remember it - he started the abuse. > > Then again, these arguements have no place on this list. We now know your > position, we know Robert's position, we know Bob's position. From now on, > I'd like all of you to keep all of us other Sam users out of this feud. Agreed, but so far I've only replied to his postings. As I've said, any new reader of this list I come across with have a direct email sent to them as soon as I become aware of them, warning them that people like Robert exist on this list. > > Thanks. > Ok? Bill. From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 20:19:41 1998 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:16:34 -0400 From: Gordon Wallis <101762.2062@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! To: "INTERNET:sam-users@nvg.unit.no" Message-ID: <199806071516_MC2-3F77-A17D@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 579 Lines: 20 Message text written by INTERNET:sam-users@nvg.unit.no >I took things to private email remember, I was not the one that reposted that private email to this list. Now, I'm still waiting for an apology. If you want this to go away Gavin, tell the guy to post the apology. Bill. < Yet again, Bill, you don't read what Gavin says... "Robert, we don't want or care about the apology. This is boring. Take it elsewhere." I'd guess that this is also aimed at you. Grow up, or get out of our playground. What exactly do you do on this mailing list when you're not arguing, old man? From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 21:18:12 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:08:28 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bd9250$09374ce0$1b26accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 384 Lines: 11 > Agreed, but so far I've only replied to his postings. As I've > said, any new > reader of this list I come across with have a direct email sent to them as > soon as I become aware of them, warning them that people like > Robert exist on > this list. I think we're getting to the point where we need to consider changing the rules on the list then. Or starting a new one up. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 21:55:26 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:36:36 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! In-reply-to: <000101bd9250$09374ce0$1b26accf@default> References: Message-Id: <19980607204318Z49339-9261+803@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 264 Lines: 12 > From: "Simon Cooke" > > > I think we're getting to the point where we need to consider changing the > rules on the list then. Or starting a new one up. > > Simon Are there any rules on this list? I've never seen any! David From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 22:11:50 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ILGW@C&L NL @ C&L INT @ C&L INT EXTERNAL@OUTBOUND @INTERLIANT From: Stefan Drissen To: sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Message-ID: <8625661C.00740D93.00@Internet-504.interliant.com> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:03:35 +0200 Subject: Re: let's hold reallllllly long grudges Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2521 Lines: 63 Bill Ritman (?) wrote: >You know what you are, you know how far you have overstepped the mark. Now >apologise. > >I'm not going to let you forget this you know, it will be coming back to haunt >you at regular intervals until you post a formal apology for you stupid >behaviour. Come on. I'm waiting. Hmmmm, you're not intending on holding a grudge for many many years are you? That also seems a character trait of a certain other individual on this list. Personally I don't see the problem in posting "private" emails to a list. As far as I can tell this list is a group of friends who communicate views / ideas on the SAM scene to each other. This list can hardly be viewed as mass media, and even if it was mass media, I'm sure tabloids would be more than happy to publish anything, private or not. If you call me an arsehole, why can't I tell other people that you think I am one? (not that you have - yet) Especially since I would in that case actually be telling the _truth_. So why anyone would need to apologise for quoting a truth is beyond me. Does anyone know what ostracize (?) means? It could do wonders on this list!! BTW any possibility of creating a virtual dark alley so that we can whop the virtual shit out of each other? ;-) Hold it, I'll better that, can we all attend the next Gloucester show and whip the pyshical shit out of each other. We might then have enough shit to be able to create some decent CTRL-SHIT-DELETE reset routines. ;) (very excellent typo Dave!!! (IIRC)) Thanks for mentioning Wayne Coles someone - it managed to waste some time playing Stax. Stefan -- **************************************** This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed and is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. Accordingly, Coopers & Lybrand disclaim all responsibility and accept no liability (including in negligence) for the consequences for any person acting, or refraining from acting, on such information prior to the receipt by those persons of subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this E-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. **************************************** From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 22:48:17 1998 Message-Id: <9806072145.AA28240@mars.cableol.net> From: Neil Maynard To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:49:23 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: 'Public' Disk Magazine X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01a) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 357 Lines: 10 Hi, I've noticed that there is a copy of one of the Public Disk Magazines on NVG. I have three other issues and wanted to check that they are allowed to be on NVG before I uploaded them. Anyone know if they can go on ?? Neil Maynard PS. Anyone who has any old sam software that they wrote should upload it to NVG - The archive needs some new files!!! From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 22:53:15 1998 Message-ID: <357B0B26.949C1C6C@purple.dircon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:50:30 +0100 From: Gavin Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Subject: Re: 'Public' Disk Magazine References: <9806072145.AA28240@mars.cableol.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 466 Lines: 11 Neil Maynard wrote: > PS. Anyone who has any old sam software that they wrote should upload it to > NVG - The archive needs some new files!!! Agreed, and as I said on sam-users (I think!), why isn't the SAM PD library on it? I mean, I think, IIRC, the library is charging one quid a disk - if it really is PD, what's to stop us from uploading it to NVG? Would make a nice little collection. Gavin (it's really nice to talk about SAM related stuff for a change :) From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 23:19:05 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: 'Public' Disk Magazine Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:11:33 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bd9261$3b267120$f292accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <9806072145.AA28240@mars.cableol.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 385 Lines: 13 > I've noticed that there is a copy of one of the Public Disk > Magazines on NVG. I > have three other issues and wanted to check that they are allowed > to be on > NVG before I uploaded them. Anyone know if they can go on ?? > > Neil Maynard May as well -- after all, IIRC, SAM Public Quarterly was mainly built out of software ripped off from FRED and the SCPDSA libraries. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 23:25:51 1998 Message-Id: <199806072223.XAA11407@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Paul Walker Organization: very little To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:23:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! In-reply-to: <199806071516_MC2-3F77-A17D@compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 569 Lines: 16 > Yet again, Bill, you don't read what Gavin says... > "Robert, we don't want or care about the apology. This is boring. Take > it elsewhere." > I'd guess that this is also aimed at you. Grow up, or get out of our 'twas actually me, but yes, it was aimed at all sides. Robert just happened to catch the email! (Sorry Robert.) Because, basically, if this carries on I'm outta here. Paul -- ---- MicroSoft Windows - where do you want to crash today? ---- FidoNet: 2:254/211.44 2:442/103.13 ---> http://www.craybbs.co.uk/foti <--- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Sun Jun 7 23:25:52 1998 From: David Ledbury at To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:14:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: 'Public' Disk Magazine In-reply-to: <000001bd9261$3b267120$f292accf@default> References: <9806072145.AA28240@mars.cableol.net> Message-Id: <19980607222117Z49443-9261+820@sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no> X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 611 Lines: 19 > From: "Simon Cooke" > > > I've noticed that there is a copy of one of the Public Disk > > Magazines on NVG. I > > have three other issues and wanted to check that they are allowed > > to be on > > NVG before I uploaded them. Anyone know if they can go on ?? > > > > Neil Maynard > > May as well -- after all, IIRC, SAM Public Quarterly was mainly built out of > software ripped off from FRED and the SCPDSA libraries. > > Simon And material from Sam Quartet 3 ... as he was supposed to be carrying on that magazine while I was working for SAMCo Editing the Newsdisk... From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Jun 8 00:08:59 1998 From: Dean Liversidge To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:02:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Robert is the Idiot!!!!!!! In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01a) Message-Id: X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 2861 Lines: 61 From: > > Bill, you may have noticed on occasion a certain member of this list > > repeatedly asking another member for certain monies paid for goods to be > > returned in lieu of said goods. Your situation with Robert strikes me as > > similar in that I don't think it's going to happen. > > That is nothing to do with me now is it? It's between the two of you only so stop posting this crap to the list. > > > > If you're going to start sending abusive mails to members of the list, > > tagged as private, you can expect them to post it to the list to show > > everyone else what sort of character you are. You (and Bob) seem to > > consider most people on this list to be 'kids', then get all wound up when > > they act like kids (sorry if this offends any of you 'kids'). If you're > > such a 'groan-up' (sic.), act like one and just ignore 'em. > > Crap. Total crap. If I post an email to anyone it should stay private unless I > say otherwise. Robert did wrong, he knows it, and in the end he will either > apologise for it or be ignored by anyone with any standards. And I intend to > bring his actions to the attention of any new member of this list so that they > will be warned not to have anything to do with him. I up until know did not beleve that Bill and Bob were the same peron, but the above ring so much to Bob wanting to tell everybody in the world what he thinks of Dave Ledbury ( not that i agree ). Hmmm, let me correct myself there, he doesnt want to tell anybody what he thinks, he just want to tell them ignore him, and not find out the truth or story for themselves.... censorship.... > > I care not whether you (or Bob) have lived longer than the rest of us put > > together. You're only entitled to the respect you earn. Sending people > > abusive mails is not an action likely to command anyone's respect. > > I sent an abusive email to him to counter the abusive email he sent to the > list. Remember it - he started the abuse. "Mam, mam, tell him, he's 'avin a go at me......" > > Then again, these arguements have no place on this list. We now know your > > position, we know Robert's position, we know Bob's position. From now on, > > I'd like all of you to keep all of us other Sam users out of this feud. > > Agreed, but so far I've only replied to his postings. As I've said, any new > reader of this list I come across with have a direct email sent to them as > soon as I become aware of them, warning them that people like Robert exist on > this list. Why bother, any new people will find out exactly what everybody who posts is like on this list, just like most of the new recruits have done, they can then make up there own minds, as i'm sure the newest people have already. And I dont think they'll be backing your thoughts. -- Dean Liversidge From imc Mon Jun 8 00:28:05 1998 Subject: Re: The SAM FPC In-Reply-To: from D A Fulton at "Jun 7, 98 00:55:12 am" To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:28:05 +0100 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL27 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Content-Length: 684 Lines: 15 Don't tell me he's going to say something Sam-related?!... On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:55:12 +0100 (BST), D A Fulton said: > I'm using the built-in floating point calculator in the ROM to perform a > quick calculation on the amount of free space (I think I got the codes > to use it from Steve Taylor's tutorial in FRED) and encountered a problem > in that, after calling the same function several times, my program stopped > with a "Number too big" error. Icester that the floating-point calculator is very fussy about its entry conditions. Unfortunately I can't remember all of them, but I'm fairly sure it does weird things if your code is in section D. Where is your routine? imc From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Jun 8 01:05:14 1998 From: Simon Cooke To: sam-users Subject: RE: The SAM FPC Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:55:37 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bd926f$c4ba22c0$f292accf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199806072328.AAA13501@ruby.comlab> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 423 Lines: 12 > Icester that the floating-point calculator is very fussy about its entry > conditions. Unfortunately I can't remember all of them, but I'm fairly > sure it does weird things if your code is in section D. Where is your > routine? Even better... can you let us know what you're trying to do with it? I'm sure I've got a 32bit divide routine somewhere... Might be able to get rid of the floating point for you. Simon From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Jun 8 03:35:51 1998 X-Sender: asc25@pop.hermes.cam.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <357B0B26.949C1C6C@purple.dircon.co.uk> References: <9806072145.AA28240@mars.cableol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:25:02 +0100 To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no From: Andrew Collier Subject: Re: 'Public' Disk Magazine X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1126 Lines: 26 At 10:50 pm +0100 7/6/98, Gavin Smith wrote: >Neil Maynard wrote: > >> PS. Anyone who has any old sam software that they wrote should upload it to >> NVG - The archive needs some new files!!! > >Agreed, and as I said on sam-users (I think!), why isn't the SAM PD library on >it? I mean, I think, IIRC, the library is charging one quid a disk - if it >really is PD, what's to stop us from uploading it to NVG? Would make a nice >little collection. I think I've said this before, but if anybody bought a copy of "ILLUSION PD" then could you get in touch with me? I'd like to make it available on-line, but I currently don't even have a copy myself.... Andrew -- +----------------+-----------------------------+----------------+ | Andrew Collier | email asc25@cam.ac.uk | Talk sense | | 1B NatSci | http://carou.sel.cam.ac.uk/ | to a fool | +----------------+-----------------------------+ and he calls | | Selwyn College Student Computer Support Team | you foolish | | email support@sel.cam.ac.uk | -- Euripides | +----------------------------------------------+----------------+ From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Jun 8 11:45:17 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661D.003AFD92.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:47:08 +0100 Subject: Re: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 433 Lines: 12 >> Ever hear of a minor cult called Buddism? >> (And I can't spell either... but i'm quite sure I'm not Bob!) >> >I hardly think one of the worlds top 5 religions could be called a minor cult. Just to add... Buddism isn't really a religion anyway. It's "a way of enlightened life". No God to worship except the "higher" version of yourself (ie, your sub-concious). then again, I'm probably speaking a load of cobblers anyway... From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Jun 8 12:01:33 1998 Message-ID: <026601bd92cb$6b275c80$f03ca8c0@DavesPC.orctel.internal> From: Dave To: sam-users Subject: Re: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:51:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 254 Lines: 14 >>> Ever hear of a minor cult called Buddism? >>> (And I can't spell either... but i'm quite sure I'm not Bob!) >>> >>I hardly think one of the worlds top 5 religions could be called a minor >cult. > Bob is in the top 5 religions!!!??? :) DMZ --- From owner-sam-users@nvg.ntnu.no Mon Jun 8 12:01:36 1998 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CASE TECHNOLOGY From: Justin_Skists@case.co.uk To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <8025661D.003B56C9.00@notes_a.case.co.uk> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:02:05 +0100 Subject: Re: The SAM FPC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Orcpt: rfc822;sam-users@nvg.unit.no Reply-To: sam-users@nvg.unit.no Status: RO Content-Length: 1497 Lines: 32 >I'm using the built-in floating point calculator in the ROM to perform a >quick calculation on the amount of free space (I think I got the codes >to use it from Steve Taylor's tutorial in FRED) and encountered a problem >in that, after calling the same function several times, my program stopped >with a "Number too big" error. The first few executions are fine, then >something goes haywire, with the value becoming more and more inaccurate >before the error. Arrrggghhhh!!!! Not the dreaded FPC!!! I once tried to use SAM's FPC. Complicated, 'twaz. If I remember rightly, your calculation code had to be in Block C. And all that pushing and popping made my program (MIDI SMF player) go way too slow and the result was really funny (I made some rounding errors... :). Sorry, but I'll have to go home and check what I had to do to get it working the way I wanted it to. Anyway, since they were 32-bit integer maths, I nicked a few routines from Hitech's CP/M C compiler (Since it was PD, Bob!). (I've just re-typed them into Comet changing a few things since I adapted them for my use on a different CP/M assembler.) I'll get around to re-writing that program once I've finished MIDI-bar (which will receive real-time MIDI data and put lines on the screen for the different channels/notes)... That's a point: If I'm gonna release MIDI-Bar as Freeware, can someone make a nice main screen for me if I give them the screen layout? My graphics talent isn't exactly world-renown.... Justin.